Mutant Philosophies: Xavier, Cyclops, Magneto

[durty dee]

Xavier = Martin Luther King, Jr. and Mahatma Ghandi (although he has done some shady things) COEXISTANCE

Magento = Adolf Hilter (ironically), Osama Bin-Ladin, Dwight York, Marcus Garvey, and other leaders of extreme zionism and nationalism. SUPREMACY

Cyclops = Malcom X, Louis Farrakhan? SEPARATISM?

Do we know what is Cyclops' philosophy? He gave up on Xavier's dream, but he's not siding with Magneto. What is he fighting for?

Another thing is that I don't think Cyclops is very charismatic to be considered the Malcom X of the 198ish mutants. To me, he's just a soldier.... so he acts and thinks like a soldier.

I was watching the Astonishing X-men motion comic on Marvel.com the other day. In that, Cyclops gave a speech on how the X-Men save the world numerous times yet recieve no respect. They aren't treated as a superhero team like the Avengers or the Fanastic 4. He says that he wants to create an image that the X-Men are the world's protectors. That way, he thinks the public will respect them..... But I have a problem with this. If he does this, it will only reinforce the public's prejudices that mutants are born weapons and killing machines.

What's Cyclops thinking?

[The Lucky One]

Don't forget Cable:

"Shoot them in the f&$%ing head!"

-D

[timbox]

Cyclops = Benito Mussolini

[Dave13]

Cyclops = Benito Mussolini

So he's gonna end up Hung by his feet by his own people?

[JohnSD]

Cyclops = Benito Mussolini

He makes the trains run on time?

[Mitteloss]

Everyone's always compared Xavier with Martin Luther King, while Magneto was compared to Malcom X.

[durty dee]

Everyone's always compared Xavier with Martin Luther King, while Magneto was compared to Malcom X.

I never felt the Magneto/Malcom X comparison was accurate.

Malcom X and the Nation of Islam promoted Black pride, not necessarily coexistence or supremacy. His exact quote: "Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery." This sounds a lot like Cyclops..... (except for the killing part)

Thats not Magneto at all. Mutants are the supreme species to him and they should rule the earth, no exceptions. He is a terrorist and a mutant supremacist. Malcom X was neither.

[The Lucky One]

I never felt the Magneto/Malcom X comparison was accurate.

Malcom X and the Nation of Islam promoted Black pride, not necessarily coexistence or supremacy. His exact quote: "Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery." This sounds a lot like Cyclops..... (except for the killing part)

Well, eventually. I'm not a Malcolm X expert (Malcolm X-pert?), but didn't his viewpoints become more moderate toward the end of his life? I'm fairly certain that at least in his early days, he made statements to the effect that he believed all white people were inherently morally inferior to black people. Maybe I'm misremembering that, but I don't think so.

-D

[jmc247]

Thats not Magneto at all. Mutants are the supreme species to him and they should rule the earth, no exceptions. He is a terrorist and a mutant supremacist. Malcom X was neither.

Here is a good interview from writer Chris Gage about Magneto.

Who would you compare Magneto to? Malcom X? Martin Luther King? I know he refers to Graydon Creed as Hitler in the mini, but if Magneto does is willing to kill based on race, how does he see himself as better?

Magneto doesn’t kill humans based on race; he kills them if they threaten the safety of mutants. He doesn’t want to exterminate all humans, but he has come to believe that humans will only stop threatening mutants if they fear them enough, and if they understand that attacking mutants will draw equal or greater retaliation.

As for who I’d compare him to, I think Magneto is his own man. One could certainly draw some parallels to a variety of historical figures, including Malcolm X, but there’s no direct comparison that works for me. He believes mutants are genetically superior to humans, which provides ample basis to call him a racist, but he isn’t out to oppress or exterminate humans. He believes evolution will take care of that as they naturally become extinct.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=18785


Take Magneto's 'rule' in House of M for instance. Genosha did not rule America or the rest of the world though he could have. Instead Genosha he simply kicked America's ass, outed Nixon's plot against mutants, and embarrassed the United States and other world leaders in such a way that along with his nations economic might they would respect Genosha as the world's greatest superpower and not screw with them again. So, Genosha ends up ruling the world like the United States does today instead of like Nazi Germany would rule the world.

The closest historial figure is to 616 and House of M Magneto would be Menachem Begin, but as Gage said no historic figure works perfectly. One can see some of Julius Caesar and other historic figures in the character as well.

[worstblogever]

Try Cyclops as David Ben-Gurion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion).

[Majinoaw]

Originally Professor X was based in the mold of MLK and Magneto was based in the mold of Malcom X. Malcolm was more extreme when he first started with the Nation of Islam but broke off from the group after he became dillusioned with Elijah Muhammad. Malcolm then took a more peaceful approach especially after his trip to Mecca.

But he was originally a separatist. He did not believe in blacks and whites coeexisting... In an interview with Alex Haley he says that when you add milk to black coffee it severely weakens it - dilutes it. He suggested that blacks live in a separatist nation and would never be treated fairly in America....

Sounds a lot like Magneto to me... or at least past iterations of him.

[jmc247]

Try Cyclops as David Ben-Gurion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion).

Ben Gurion would work well for today's Cyclops and Begin for 1990s Magneto.

In 1946 Ben-Gurion agreed that the Haganah could cooperate with Menachem Begin's Irgun in fighting the British. Ben-Gurion initially agreed to Begin's plan to carry out the 1946 King David Hotel bombing, with the intent of embarrassing (rather than killing) the British military stationed there. However, when the risks of mass killing became apparent, Ben-Gurion told Begin to call the operation off; Begin refused

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion

[worstblogever]

Ben Gurion would work well for today's Cyclops and Begin for 1990s Magneto.

Were you the one who opened my eyes to the Cyke/Ben Gurion thing? I remember someone talking to me and Brian M. about it in some thread, back like two years ago... I just can't remember who.

But the Professor X is MLK thing is a bit harder to take, given his "shadier" moments through the years. Magneto was patterned after Malcolm X, to my knowledge.

[jmc247]

But he was originally a separatist. He did not believe in blacks and whites coeexisting... In an interview with Alex Haley he says that when you add milk to black coffee it severely weakens it - dilutes it. He suggested that blacks live in a separatist nation and would never be treated fairly in America....

Sounds a lot like Magneto to me... or at least past iterations of him.

Magneto has never had a problem with the mixing of races. Hell, most of the women Magneto has slept with over the years were human. Nor did he force the humans off of Genosha in the 1990s. They still had positions in the cabinet and jobs based on their level of competence.

He believes mutants need to be both feared and respected so if human governments act against mutants that he will respond in kind or perhaps even with greater force. But, he has no problem with humans and mutants working together, breeding, or living together as long as they know what the score is.

[Majinoaw]

Were you the one who opened my eyes to the Cyke/Ben Gurion thing? I remember someone talking to me and Brian M. about it in some thread, back like two years ago... I just can't remember who.

But the Professor X is MLK thing is a bit harder to take, given his "shadier" moments through the years. Magneto was patterned after Malcolm X, to my knowledge.

MLK wasn't perfect either but initially Xavier was patterned after him and the mutant struggle was based on the civil rights movement.

[Majinoaw]

Magneto has never had a problem with the mixing of races. Hell, most of the women Magneto has slept with over the years were human. Nor did he force the humans off of Genosha in the 1990s. They still had positions in the cabinet and jobs based on their level of competence.

He believes mutants need to be both feared and respected so if human governments act against mutants that he will respond in kind or perhaps even with greater force. But, he has no problem with humans and mutants working together, breeding, or living together as long as they know what the score is.

I'm talking about when the characters were introduced in the 60s not present day.

[worstblogever]

MLK wasn't perfect either but initially Xavier was patterned after him and the mutant struggle was based on the civil rights movement.

I don't know if MLK ever made someone forget about his brother's death, or enslaved an artificial intelligence to keep his followers' trained in techniques of peaceful protest, though.

MLK not perfect, but > Xavier, in my eyes, given retcons. (Still, one's real, and one's not, so whatevah.)

[jmc247]

Were you the one who opened my eyes to the Cyke/Ben Gurion thing? I remember someone talking to me and Brian M. about it in some thread, back like two years ago... I just can't remember who.


I was talking to KiplingKat a few years back and we were going over Israeli figures and how much alike certain ones were to X-Men, but I don't remember alot about that talk.

I do remember saying that Menachem Begin's history, actions, and views were very similar to Magneto's.

Xavier is no MLK. I agree with that... he acts like he is, but with recient retcons of his actions he is certainly far far from MLK.

[jmc247]

I'm talking about when the characters were introduced in the 60s not present day.

Silver Age Magneto didn't force the humans of the nation in South America he took over to leave either. He had those humans inciting against his rule beaten and thrown in jail. But, he didn't kick them out to create a mutant only nation.

Silver Age Magneto was crazy, but he had alot of similar ideas about ruling a country to 90s Magneto in that humans and mutants can work together and live together as long as he was calling the shots.

[7thangel]

where it works was in having two different viewpoints for the survival and well being of a race. the major difference between mlk and malcolm x was non-violence vs self defense. slide it over and prof x and mags it's self defense and preemptive/terrorist attacks but..

even without the prof x retcons he was no mlk, besides hiding the fact that he was an actual mutant and created a team of young soldiers (regardless if it was in defense against mags), he never truly pursued integration, political power to combat discrimination or actively looked for or maintained human allies. with the retcon, not even close.

mags and malcolm x (NOI or post) not so much either as mags actively took the offensive and attacked not only humans but fellow mutants that didn't agree with him as opposed to not turning the other cheek of malcolm x.

i think mags could have a bit of the lehi group (not the ones that tried to broker a deal with the nazi's), and a little marcus garvey. the supremacy stuff, wiping out humanity would be more an amalgamation of many figures in history, especially those that suffered under genocide only to become what they hated.

[durty dee]

I didn't read the early issues of X-Men all those years ago, but I really do believe Xavier was showing his students how to control their powers. I don't think he was intentionally trying make them to be soldiers.

But you do have good points on Prof X. You're exactly right about Magneto...

But what about Cyclops? Everybody is giving their cents on Xavier and Mags. I need to know what is Cyclops' dream?

[Filthy Mutie]

But what about Cyclops? Everybody is giving their cents on Xavier and Mags. I need to know what is Cyclops' dream?

Other than survival of the species, has he ever really given a mission statement?

[MuhollandDriver]

i am not sure Cyclops has a dream. The man is written as quite literal. Mutants are also almost extinct. At first i thought he might've had a plan with keeping remaining mutants alive, but Surge/Hellion treatment nixed that. Perhaps finding the possible mutant messiah is his plan.

Storm had an interesting vision with taking the X-Men underground, whether You agreed with it or not. i'd be very interested in her vision for mutants today, her being a world figure and all.

Furthermore, i am quite dissapointed that these two sparring yet close mutant philosophers weren't considered.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o279/anansi4/artieleech.jpg

[Something Other]

Don't forget Cable:

"Shoot them in the f&$%ing head!"

-D

That was only Cable 1.0!

He went from Super-Soldier to Mutant Messiah to John the Baptist or something. Not that he's not still up for a fight.

[7thangel]

I didn't read the early issues of X-Men all those years ago, but I really do believe Xavier was showing his students how to control their powers. I don't think he was intentionally trying make them to be soldiers.

But you do have good points on Prof X. You're exactly right about Magneto...

But what about Cyclops? Everybody is giving their cents on Xavier and Mags. I need to know what is Cyclops' dream?

have to wait and see, right now he's a reactionary. it would be nice if they based it on real figures and approaches when they reveal his plans, something i think they should have done with the other individuals and groups that either opposed the x-men or were similar but weren't part of the x-men family (are there any?).

[The Lucky One]

That was only Cable 1.0!

He went from Super-Soldier to Mutant Messiah to John the Baptist or something. Not that he's not still up for a fight.

I'm sorry, you're right. His actual, canonical, not-making-it-up-even-a-little-bit motto is "Stab his [her/their/its] eyes!" :wink:

Then again, Jesus said "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." So maybe Cable IS the mutant messiah.

-D

[Something Other]

I'm sorry, you're right. His actual, canonical, not-making-it-up-even-a-little-bit motto is "Stab his [her/their/its] eyes!" :wink:

Then again, Jesus said "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." So maybe Cable IS the mutant messiah.

-D

Cable 1.0 = original run, "fight for peace" (whatever that means), bring-the-fight-to-the-enemy, "stab your eyes", Wildpack/Six Pack + X-Force

Cable 2.0 = Cable & Deadpool, take over countries by fixing elections (for great justice) and turn old space stations into island paradises which then get blown up, Messiah wannabe

Cable 3.0 = Second run, nanny, time-stuck, Messiah-guardian-wannabe Cable

That's what I mean.

...I do not seem to be able to post in a thread without derailing it. :/

So how about Cable's dad, then?

[RolandJP]

Bishop = abolitionist John Brown


President Abraham Lincoln said he was a "misguided fanatic" and Brown has been called "the most controversial of all 19th-century Americans."[1] His attempt in 1859 to start a liberation movement among enslaved African Americans in Harpers Ferry, Virginia electrified the nation. He was tried for treason against the state of Virginia, the murder of five proslavery Southerners, and inciting a slave insurrection

[Perfection/Emma 2]

Emma is Rosa Parks of the MU

[Majinoaw]

Emma is Rosa Parks of the MU

Not even by a longshot.

[7thangel]

Bishop = abolitionist John Brown


President Abraham Lincoln said he was a "misguided fanatic" and Brown has been called "the most controversial of all 19th-century Americans."[1] His attempt in 1859 to start a liberation movement among enslaved African Americans in Harpers Ferry, Virginia electrified the nation. He was tried for treason against the state of Virginia, the murder of five proslavery Southerners, and inciting a slave insurrection
i kind of disagree. i was going to mention him in the context that the x-universe needs a couple john browns. as brown wasn't black the equivalent in the x-universe would need to be human, fighting for another race facing oppression.

they might also need a full fledged joseph smith for mutants, creation a whole new religion getting converts from both sides, eventually being forced to slowly change their own practices that are deemed discriminatory by their flock. the amount of tension and conflict within the mutant community as a new power emerges and what their plans are could also work.

lord knows the mutants need more options for the future than what they got right now and in the past

[quillero]

I see Scott more like a NATIONALIST. Like a mutant Masaryk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom%C3%A1%C5%A1_Masaryk). Who went from co-existence to independence as the times changed.

[ProfeZZor X]

Emma is Rosa Parks of the MU

How the hell could you even come up with that equasion? ...Do you even know who Rosa Parks is and what transpired back then?

That's like me saying Cable and Hope are the Regis & Kelly of the Marvel Universe....

[Filthy Mutie]

Warlock is a refugee from a war-torn land who came to America. After opening a modest restaurant, intolerant Americans burned it to the ground; then he opened a new restaurant and that became In N' Out Burger.

[7thangel]

i could see fraction making cyclops as a mutant version of harvey milk

[Monty_Cristo]

Shortpack is the Dennis Kucinich of our time.

[Slung]

Emma is Rosa Parks of the MU

I can just see Emma getting on a bus with a disgusted look on her face and then disinfecting the area before setting handkerchief down to sit on. She'd probably yell at the gawking passengers to mind their own business and ask someone sitting nearby when they began serving refreshments.

[Omega Alpha]

Magneto is the Robespierre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robespierre) of mutantkind, although Che Guevara works too (in the sense they work much better as symbols than alive, and when they actually took over governments, they were disasters).

As for Cyclops, you're putting too much on this "Nation X" thing without reading the story. We don't know if he's being forced into it. So far, he has been less about a "dream" and more about getting the job done, mostly due to lack of options.

[Something Other]

I can just see Emma getting on a bus with a disgusted look on her face and then disinfecting the area before setting handkerchief down to sit on. She'd probably yell at the gawking passengers to mind their own business and ask someone sitting nearby when they began serving refreshments.

I can't even see Emma getting on a bus.

[Slung]

I can't even see Emma getting on a bus.

Well, obviously she was standing up for mutant rights! Otherwise she'd call a limo.

[durty dee]

i could see fraction making cyclops as a mutant version of harvey milk

What? He'll become the first mutant politician?

By the FREAKING way! How come we haven't seen more mutant barriers broken in the long history of the Marvel Universe!?

Where is the first mutant senator?
Where is the first mutant pro football player?
Where is the first mutant movie star? or one to win an oscar?

WTF Marvel?

[xgeek52]

*props chin in hand*

okay, everything that's been said is valid...

but the thing i hate about retcon is everyone forgets about how things started...

xavier and magnus were/are the ying and yang of mutant philosophies...it was how lee wanted it but over the decades that view got kinda lost in the mix...

scott embraced xavier's view but he was the solider who had to defend that view from those who didn't embrace it...

today, thank to the house of m and decimation he has to defend that view, and create safe haven for all mutants by any means necessary...

that is his philosophy...

[DarkBeast]

Cyclops' philosophy: "All mutants in the world should be consolidated to live under my roof and under my control. All mutants should try their best to look and behave like rich, snotty models or celebrities. Mutants shall form a 'Greymalkin Industries' corporation that puts political pressure on the local (human) government. We shall feign indignation whenever humans mention that we're congregating like militants and acting like we're holier-than-thou or too-cool-for-school."

Seriously, some REALLY good posts in this thread on Xavier and Magneto and the civil rights movement. This is the best thread I've seen in a long time, on a subject one would think had already been done to death.

I think the idea of positioning Cyclops as a "third way" in distinction to Xavier and Magneto is a REALLY interesting one, but I think Fraction is way too narrow-minded and...uneducated, basically, to do the idea any justice. There's already too many conflicting recent actions on Cyclops' part to make any professed "philosophy" of his seem anything but hypocritical. How can Cyclops take any sort of moral high road when he's doing what he's doing with X-Force? He's basically okaying murder and torture with no rules...but then on the other hand he's at great pains to make sure that the mutant protesters in San Fran don't go outside the law and provoke the police. (He also FAILS in his ability to control the young mutant protesters--so that's leadership for you.) Couple all that with the fact that he's spent half his panel-time during the last five years publicly drooling over an ex-super villainess who still dresses in S&M getup--so you just can't take the guy seriously as a philosophical leader. Not that I think Fraction WILL paint the guy as the "COMPLETELY PERFECT new mutant leader of today", but the point is that the character is already so compromised--tactically, morally, emotionally--that at this time he just DOESN'T make a good enough leader to justify his ascension to the ranks of Magneto and Xavier in terms of philosophy. Basically any sort of "philosophy" that he has boils down to "We're mutants! We're like Rock Stars, man, it's AWESOME! We like to have sex! And we're rich! Ugh, OMG you humans are so BACKWARDS we're not even going to live near you, 'kay? We're through trying to build bridges with you because you're just jealous that we're so HAWT!! So we'll just build our own Utopia island and live there and have sex whenever we want! That's my PHILOSOPHY, dude! It's a lot kooler than Xavier's! (P.S. I'll have my secret mutant strikeforce kill you if I think you're a threat! :))"

And what was it that caused Cyc to break with Xavier? Oh yeah, he was indignant about some of Xavier's questionable morals and bad decisions. Right. And immediately after Xavier left, Cyclops started doing similar things. He started up the new X-Force and consolidated almost all of the Earth's remaining mutants into one city, which proved to be a pretty bad idea both for mutantkind and for the city.

It is a little premature to poo-poo the Nation X idea already, though. I am really looking forward to it. It sounds interesting. But can't you already sense that before too long there's going to be a storyline where Cyclops himself is criticized by both Magneto and Xavier? It's just tough to believe in the guy--or even in a story about the guy being mutantkind's great "Third Way"--when it's already pretty apparent that he's been kind of a hypocrite and a bad leader of late.

[durty dee]

.... It's just tough to believe in the guy--or even in a story about the guy being mutantkind's great "Third Way"--when it's already pretty apparent that he's been kind of a hypocrite and a bad leader of late.

EXACTLY RIGHT! You took the words right out of my mouth. I think Cyclops is very hypocritical and is starting off on the wrong foot.

I want to have an issue where Cyclops, Magneto, and Xavier have a debate in a mental plane (Using Xavier's power to link minds).

[xgeek52]

but is he -- being a hypocrite...or is he trying to find a way to save what's left of the mutant universe...

scott summer grew up under the philosophy of charles xavier...that's taken away from him...what does the heir apparent do in light of that...

he finds another way...

wouldn't you...

[Perfection/Emma 2]

How the hell could you even come up with that equasion? ...Do you even know who Rosa Parks is and what transpired back then?

That's like me saying Cable and Hope are the Regis & Kelly of the Marvel Universe....

It was a joke, lighten up. Besides am not known here for my brains, but yes am well aware who Rosa Park is and what happen during the segregation period

[Cypocalypse_Complex]

Been a Cyclops fan for more than 15 years.

But please, a Cyclops philosophy at this point is a bit...pretentious. Seems like a needless rushed push.

I still haven't forgiven the people that gave him the movie bastardization, and I think the comic books have given him a certain degree of justice over the recent years, but a philosophical Cyclops?

A more realistic take on him these days is to write him like how Joss Whedon did and extend it to a considerable time frame to make people have a gradual change of perspective from his wimpy film image.

For one, the 198 storyline didn't give me a certain doomsday feel (not while people still get to see gazillions of various X-titles being sold), that asks for a Cyclops philosophical push, and more than anything, Cyclops actions as of late is more like a defensive stance on dealing with a current situation, more so than a long term vision.

Nothing is steady lately, and it's not expected for Cyke to have a solid future take on things (with Hope Summers' fate still uncertain, among other things).

And even if we dig on Cyclops past, there's nothing in it that would seem to be a good foundation for a macro level vision.

Unlike Mags where you can always use the holocaust angle and you can dig a heavy source material for future write-ups. Cyclops haven't benefited from such luxury.

The only thing that's certain is Xavier's current ideals no longer applies post M-Day, and changes should be done. As to what specifics of that change should be is still up for debate. Sure, it would give Cyclops mush needed spotlight, but not so much a rushed build-up of a future vision. He's not that person, yet.

There have been good display of Cyclops' humanist side during the Claremont era, but that's a leverage given by Claremont's writing, and his is a comic book story telling style that isn't any longer appealing in the contemporaneous sense,

[xgeek52]

been a scott summers fan from the beginning...and the change was inevential...

you can thank the twelve and the search for cyclops for part of his change...

and hom and morrison for furthering that change...

the character under claremont was the tactical leader not the man with the fate of the mutant universe in his hands...not he does...

like i said before he's gonna ensure that survival by any means necessary...