Fantastic Four #569 *Spoilers*

[CapnCaveman]

Decent issue that nicely ties up the Master of Doom arc.

The alternative universe FFs are attackign the Baxter Building and Reed and Val work on a plan to stop them while Ben goes to kill Wyncham. The Marquis' apprentice follows Ben to Area 87, but Ben knocks him away and finds Wyncham and looks like he is about to kill him.

Meanwhile, Reed has joined Johnny and Sue in fighting the other FFs (and makes a bad joke about the thrash talking of the alt-Reeds). He tells Val to "hit it" and she does something to knock out the alt-FFs. Then Ben returns via teleportation with Clyde Wyncham from Area 87 and it turns out "he's a fan" (Ben's words) and wants to help fight the Marquis.

So Wyncham and the Marquis (an alt-Wyncham himself for those of you not following the story) have a big comic level scrap that the Marquis wins, but is left quite drained from. During the fight, Reed has drained the powers of all the alt-FFs and given it his team. The Marquis cockily asks "how long do you think your fragile forms can conrtain the powers of thousands before your puny hearts eplode", to which Reed immediately answers:

"Twenty-three point four seconds"

A battle rages and the FF win. The Marquis tells Reed to finish him, which Reed refuses to do. Suddely the Marquis' apprentice appears, knocks the fallen Marquis aside, picks up the mask and is revealed to be (SWERVE)...... DOOM. Tells the Marquis not to speak unless spoken to.

So after getting eaten by the giant sharks millions of years ago, Doom's hate kept him alive. He spent the next "millioons of years" reforming his body and mastering black arts. Then he took on this new disguise of the new apprentice and returned to the Marquis on the sly for more training.

But realizing that the Marquis was too powerful, he set up the battle against some "useful idiots" (the FF) in order to weaken the Marquis. Says that he is know infinitely more powerful, but doesn't have any beef (for now) with the FF.

Best part of the issues comes next when the Marquis tries to kiss up to Doom and Doom cuts him off with "I said.... SILENCE", then kills him. Then he goes back to Latveria.

The Thing's wedding follows, which was a bit of a let down. Thing doesn't show up and Deb finds him in a bar. He can't go through with it because heroes' wives and girlfriends always get hurt. She understands and they stay friends. Ending has him and Reed having a drink.

[randomengine]

I don't think the changes to Doom will be referenced anywhere in the future.

[FlintEastwood]

I haven't picked this up yet, but does this mean that Doom is incredibly powerful now...or what?


edit: yay! 300

[CapnCaveman]

I don't think the changes to Doom will be referenced anywhere in the future.

Likely not. He seems to be the same old Doom in Dark Reign.

[randomengine]

I think this plot was overly ambitious for a 616 continuity tale. I don't think it belonged in 616, unless it will contain some lasting change.

[CapnCaveman]

I think this plot was overly ambitious for a 616 continuity tale. I don't think it belonged in 616, unless it will contain some lasting change.

Agreed. That's a bit of a problem these days. Too many writers with too much leeway when it comes to changing characters. So you get confusing continuity and guys ignoring a lot of past stuff because it doesn't fit. I think this will end up being a great example of that.

[CaptainCanada]

Likely not. He seems to be the same old Doom in Dark Reign.They've presumably been waiting until this story was finished to introduce any changes. In the long-term, though, I can't imagine him remaining at the power levels that Millar has him at here.

We do know from the solicits that Hickman will be following up with a lot of Millar's story points, so I don't think it'll be immediately ignored.

I really liked the way the wedding resolution was handled (though, FYI, Tennyson was talking about the death of his friend, not either breaking up with or the death of a lover). Millar did a great job through this run of getting the dynamic of the Four.

Immonen did a great job of mimicking Hitch's art style here.

[Doom Answers to No Master]

Well I haven't picked the issue up yet, but naturally anytime Doom is a powerhungry obsessed man, I am game for that aspect of the good doctor....and to finally put it to the Marquis...beautiful...

[CyberCoyote]

Wait.. so Doom has existed for Millions of years? He's immortal now but waited until this very time to come into being? He never thought to just kill Wyncham himself? To appear as anything else? This all sounds very difficult. Did he just replace the Apprentice or was he always the Apprentice and The Marque's HR department forgot to do a background check when filling the position?

Guess I gotta read it through.

[bloodyarts]

Wait.. so Doom has existed for Millions of years? He's immortal now but waited until this very time to come into being? He never thought to just kill Wyncham himself? To appear as anything else? This all sounds very difficult. Did he just replace the Apprentice or was he always the Apprentice and The Marque's HR department forgot to do a background check when filling the position?

Guess I gotta read it through.

This. How could the Marquis not know all this time that his Apprentice was Doom?

Anybody see Gladiator going down to an A.I.M. henchman? LOL! I know, different dimensions, blah blah.. still pretty funny.

I liked this issue best of all Millar's run (which has been decidedly underwhelming for me), except for the Doom reveal at the end.

Also, I think the marriage resolution is logical. Good call there, Ben.

[CyberCoyote]

This. How could the Marquis not know all this time that his Apprentice was Doom?

Anybody see Gladiator going down to an A.I.M. henchman? LOL! I know, different dimensions, blah blah.. still pretty funny.

I liked this issue best of all Millar's run (which has been decidedly underwhelming for me), except for the Doom reveal at the end.

Also, I think the marriage resolution is logical. Good call there, Ben.

Not sure who to give or take credit to or from. In an interview Millar claimed Ahearne wrote these issues using nothing but a skeleton of a plot, but what parts were the skeleton? If this changes Doom for all of Marvel history (and by all means it should.. he's MILLIONS of years advanced now, it might as well be an immortal Doom coming from the far flung future) who takes responsibility? It seems like a MM thing, dialing Doom up to 11, but I just don't know.

[XPac]

It is kind of weird to see someone do something so drasticly different with Doom, considering he's being used so heavily in the MU. I'm not sure I see the logic of that unless they do plan on incorporating all of this into Doom's potrayals.

And boy, did that Marquis guy end up being lame.

[skrullover]

Wait...wait...wait, wasn't it the MoD's apprentice who was posing as Sue in Doom's fantasy. Doesn't that mean he was boning himself for five years. Actually, that sounds right up Doom's alley.

[blehbeh]

Wow. Ridiculous. What a mess Marvel is. It's stuff like this that makes me wonder why I still care about super hero serials...

[CyberCoyote]

It is kind of weird to see someone do something so drasticly different with Doom, considering he's being used so heavily in the MU. I'm not sure I see the logic of that unless they do plan on incorporating all of this into Doom's potrayals.

And boy, did that Marquis guy end up being lame.

It's drastic, then the writer just walks away from it and leaves it for everyone else to actually work with. That's like writing something like Civil Wa.. oh, wait. Gotcha.

The more I think about it the more ridiculous it seems. And how can he be anything LIKE the Doom that was in comics up until now?.. he a million years OLDER.. he should be a complete and total different character, even after you somehow justify his course of actions over the past millennium.

I just don't get how this got green lighted.

[CrimsonComedian]

During the fight, Reed has drained the powers of all the alt-FFs and given it his team. The Marquis cockily asks "how long do you think your fragile forms can conrtain the powers of thousands before your puny hearts eplode", to which Reed immediately answers:

"Twenty-three point four seconds"



Wait, so what happened to those powers that Reed drained from the alt-FFs? He put them in the original FF and then he said he'd explode in 23.4 seconds... What happened with that?

[XPac]

Wait...wait...wait, wasn't it the MoD's apprentice who was posing as Sue in Doom's fantasy. Doesn't that mean he was boning himself for five years. Actually, that sounds right up Doom's alley.

It's probably the only person in the universe good enough for Doom.

[seekquaze]

So, how did Doom survive for millions of years? His hate somehow kept him from aging? From being digested? From being killed in an ice age?

[Jason Abbadon]

Agreed. That's a bit of a problem these days. Too many writers with too much leeway when it comes to changing characters. So you get confusing continuity and guys ignoring a lot of past stuff because it doesn't fit. I think this will end up being a great example of that.
Same thing happened with the great Doom revamp in FF #350- I want glowy eyed, baddass Doom in the silver armor (with spikes!) back!
So, how did Doom survive for millions of years? His hate somehow kept him from aging? From being digested? From being killed in an ice age?

Well, you know what they say- whatever rips your limbs off and digests you only makes you stronger...

Though you'd think anyone so badass with magic would have stood out to guys like the Ancient One, Varne or Salome.
Or, you know, the Celestials (who have been to earth a few times to judge it since Doom's sharky mishap).

Best to think that Doom was in an alternate reality for his "rebirth".
It's drastic, then the writer just walks away from it and leaves it for everyone else to actually work with. That's like writing something like Civil Wa.. oh, wait. Gotcha.

The more I think about it the more ridiculous it seems. And how can he be anything LIKE the Doom that was in comics up until now?.. he a million years OLDER.. he should be a complete and total different character, even after you somehow justify his course of actions over the past millennium.

I just don't get how this got green lighted.
Well, somebody greenlighted the writer leaving mid-story, so I guess it's anything goes...
Millions of years old Doom might have been in some sort of Chryslis to heal up or studying in an adjacent dimension where time flows much faster or ...er...some shit like that there.

I'd have loved it if Doom was really cool and wise, then split the dimension to avoid bad (aincent) habits. He could have really one-upped Reed by giving Ben the ability to switch is form or just apologizing for having them go through all this BS for his revenge on Wyncham.

I did really love the wedding resolution there- Spider-Man's dialogue is great: something he'd really mean post BND.

[oanswat]

I'm in the middle of reading every doom story in chronological order right now and he's already got so many powers that it's absurd. A million year old doom, i've got to see this.

[oanswat]

One thing that doom is very well aware of is that screwing with the timeline is a bad thing. There is your explanation for why he never made his presence known as he aged a million years. He didn't want anything to change the past so he had to wait for friggin ever to get his revenge.

[CyberCoyote]

One thing that doom is very well aware of is that screwing with the timeline is a bad thing. There is your explanation for why he never made his presence known as he aged a million years. He didn't want anything to change the past so he had to wait for friggin ever to get his revenge.

That may be the very excuse they use, but Doom also knows that you don't 'change' anything, you just make your own divergent timelines. He should have no qualms with ruling one of his own. I was really happy that the Millar run was going to be over with, but he had to toss out a totally whack idea and leave it laying there without having to deal with it at all himself.

[XPac]

That may be the very excuse they use, but Doom also knows that you don't 'change' anything, you just make your own divergent timelines. He should have no qualms with ruling one of his own. I was really happy that the Millar run was going to be over with, but he had to toss out a totally whack idea and leave it laying there without having to deal with it at all himself.

The funny thing is the previous FF writer, McDuffie, established that you don't make divergent timelines. Of course, what McDuffie did basically ignored a gazillion things that happened before and quite a few things that have happened since... but I suppose there's credence to not flat out disproving an idea McDuffie fairly recently threw out there even though it's something that basically needs to be disproven.

[Expletive Deleted]

The funny thing is the previous FF writer, McDuffie, established that you don't make divergent timelinesTo be accurate, he established that you don't necessarily make divergent timelines. It can work either way, depending.

[Optimus]

To be honest, I really enjoyed the Miller/Hitch arc, despite the poor reviews. Maybe Hitch's artwork (which has never looked better) was winning me over, but when he left, I thought the title just SUCKED. This issue was horrendous. Just terrible. I agree with what people have already said, but I'll add that the part where Reed gives his teammates the power of a million different fantasitic fours for exactly 23.4 seconds and then it just dissipitates or something so it doesn't stop their hearts was very hackish. I think Doom could have easily come back (it was the past after all and he's already built a time machine once) without having to rebuild his molecules and become immortal. What about the Doom in XFactor? Why is Doom still perfectly strong now after millions of years, but physically weak and frail a few more years into the future? Why did Doom not rebuild the world into his own image while waiting those millions of years. What was he doing? Just sitting in his secret cave petting his sabretooth tiger? Awful, horrible. And the art was underwhelming. I realize that Immomen is no Hitch but still, he couldn't be kept on to finish the run? So dissapointing. Let's all forget about this story right now.

[CyberCoyote]

I'd have loved it if Doom was really cool and wise, then split the dimension to avoid bad (aincent) habits. He could have really one-upped Reed by giving Ben the ability to switch is form or just apologizing for having them go through all this BS for his revenge on Wyncham.



THAT would have been cool, and maybe he'd next crush Osborn's Cabal and been the real deciding factor in DR.. I really like Doom and want to get behind anything that promotes him, but this just feels like an idea that was never fleshed out then tossed out there.

[CyberCoyote]

To be accurate, he established that you don't necessarily make divergent timelines. It can work either way, depending.

True. The FF came back after Doom intent on interacting accordingly as to not create the divergence. They had a small window to work with, Doom would have to tread a very fine line for a million years to.. well, heck, just by being tossed back like that he should have.. bah.. time travel never works right..

[CaptainCanada]

He never thought to just kill Wyncham himself?No, Reed brings this up; Doom dismisses it as an option (seemingly as a matter of caprice).
Did he just replace the Apprentice or was he always the Apprentice and The Marque's HR department forgot to do a background check when filling the position?
Doom explicitly says he spent a huge amount of that time developing his ability to mask every atom of his being from the Marquis.

[MTL76]

This run was a mixed bag for me. I think Millar's plotlines were decent, but poorly executed. As someone above posted, he tends to run roughshod over previously established continuity and characterization. Things like making Doom a million years old? Ugh.

Where he really shined were the beats in between the big plot points, like that last scene between Reed, Ben and Johnny. Brilliant. It's moments like those that make me think Millar can do characterization well, he just gets too excited trying to top himself with over-the-top action.

[Iron Maiden]

Wow.... this ending had so many plot holes that an aircraft carrier could go sailing right through them, particulary this million year old Doom retcon.

It's drastic, then the writer just walks away from it and leaves it for everyone else to actually work with. That's like writing something like Civil Wa.. oh, wait. Gotcha.

The more I think about it the more ridiculous it seems. And how can he be anything LIKE the Doom that was in comics up until now?.. he a million years OLDER.. he should be a complete and total different character, even after you somehow justify his course of actions over the past millennium.

I just don't get how this got green lighted.

This is why I miss the times when Marvel editorial had a tighter reign over things....

We have Latveria being vaporized in the FF but the Asgardians and Namor are living there right now in Thor.

In the future, Doom is in a wheelchair and senile in X-Factor.

In 1985, Clyde Wyncham suffered brain trauma and was in a wheelchair being spoonfed. Granted, he still directed the villains attack but he was not "all there". When Ben brings him to the Baxter Building, he is in full control of his faculties.

Why would Spider-Man refer to Gwen Stacy's death to Debbie? How would she even know what he was talking about? In fact, how would Ben even know about Karen Page being Daredevil's girlfriend? BTW, who was the guy with the glasses and his dead girlfriend?

Reed tells Ben that "You've got the biggest concentration of superheroes this side of registration watching your back". Huh? Hercules is pro-reg? Spidey? Daredevil? Thundra? Cap/Bucky? Namor? Willie Lumpkin? I think I need a spreadsheet to keep up.

We see now that Doom was probably responsible for the dead alternate reality Watcher. I presume it was because he was watching when Doom survived the megladon attack and evolved. So Doom has to power up over millions of years to kill him. But wouldn't this have to be "our" Watcher and not some alternate reality Watcher to have known this? Or if not, why drag the dead Watcher to present day Earth?

Who would be around a million years ago to stop Doom from dying from blood loss and infection? What stopped the megladons from finishing him off anyway? Who would be around to teach him the black arts in the dawn of time?

When Reed channels the powers of all the FF teams that invaded the Earth, MOD says..."Stop! You could rupture the Multiverse!" Errrr.....wasn't he doing the same thing by destroying them all?

Same thing happened with the great Doom revamp in FF #350- I want glowy eyed, baddass Doom in the silver armor (with spikes!) back!
I'd have loved it if Doom was really cool and wise, then split the dimension to avoid bad (aincent) habits. He could have really one-upped Reed by giving Ben the ability to switch is form or just apologizing for having them go through all this BS for his revenge on Wyncham.


I would love to have seen that Doom revamp work but it didn't take long for DeFalco to immediately wipe it all out in the backup story with the "Doom's Editor" story in FF #358. I don't see Marvel using this new look that Doom shows up with for the final fight with MOD. It looks too much like the first FF movie version.... and that's not a good thing.


In a way, Reed was responsible for Wyncham becoming MOD because he brought him to the FF's dimension and then just dumped him in Area 87 for the villains to bust loose later. By the way, who was actually watching him out there in the desert? There was no one around to even change his...you know.... diaper or anything.

That may be the very excuse they use, but Doom also knows that you don't 'change' anything, you just make your own divergent timelines.

Ahhh.... but in X-Factor, Doom says he is the only one that figured out how to make changes take effect in your own timeline by using Doomlocks and an invariable, such as himself.

But this whole milllion year old Doom thing, plus Doom declaring "Will you not accept by now that Victor Von Doom can never die?" seems like Millar/Ahearne sort of parodying the numerous times he (or any comic book supervillain for that matter) has come back from the dead, such as when he was half dead and being dissected by the Beyonder. IMO, I think it's best that this development with Doom be retconned into another reality's Doom and not have this be "classic" ( or 616 if you prefer) Doom. I would say that that the Doom that acted like a toady and ended up as shark chum was an imposter that Doom put in place so that he could become the new apprentice. He has that device called the Remembrancer that implanted all his memories into Kristoff Venard so all he would have to do is clone himself as he did in in FF #200 and put that guy in place. Doom just lied about surviving and living for millions of years. He's probably back in Latveria laughing about how he got Reed to swallow that one.

So you see, with a little effort, it can all just go away and be forgotten, just like Millar's entire run on this title.

[StoneGold]

Funny thing is, I generally like Millar. Some of his stuff might be a bit misguided, but at the very least, it's never boring.


This was boring. This has been without a doubt the worst job he's done since starting at Marvel.

That said, I kind of liked the cop-out at the wedding. Or rather, I would have, if it didn't jar so much from the rest of the book.

[StoneGold]

Wow.... this ending had so many plot holes that an aircraft carrier could go sailing right through them, particulary this million year old Doom retcon.



This is why I miss the times when Marvel editorial had a tighter reign over things....
[quote]
We have Latveria being vaporized in the FF but the Asgardians and Namor are living there right now in Thor.
Doom's a fast builder. And has Damage Control on retainer.
In the future, Doom is in a wheelchair and senile in X-Factor.
Alternate futures, whatchya gonna do? One book is never guided by the alternate future presented in another title.
In 1985, Clyde Wyncham suffered brain trauma and was in a wheelchair being spoonfed. Granted, he still directed the villains attack but he was not "all there". When Ben brings him to the Baxter Building, he is in full control of his faculties.
That's less of a plot hole, more of crappy storytelling. It's time for him to wake up because the bad guy needs beating. Deus ex machina to the extreme.
Why would Spider-Man refer to Gwen Stacy's death to Debbie? How would she even know what he was talking about? In fact, how would Ben even know about Karen Page being Daredevil's girlfriend? BTW, who was the guy with the glasses and his dead girlfriend?Glasses guy was Banner, chick was Betty. And Ben would know DD's girlfriend because everyone "knows" Matt is DD. And beyond that, Ben is clued in on the hero scene. As for how she knew that crew was the ones with the dead girlfriends, I'm just going to guess Ben explained things a little more off-panel, since she was asking them.

Reed tells Ben that "You've got the biggest concentration of superheroes this side of registration watching your back". Huh? Hercules is pro-reg? Spidey? Daredevil? Thundra? Cap/Bucky? Namor? Willie Lumpkin? I think I need a spreadsheet to keep up.
I think you're misreading the intent of the statement there. Like the largest burger west of the Mississippi. Doesn't have anything to do with the river. It's the largest gathering of heroes this side of everybody who is registered. Although if you want to complain, you can always bitch that why isn't someone trying to round up the unregistered.


Who would be around a million years ago to stop Doom from dying from blood loss and infection? What stopped the megladons from finishing him off anyway? Who would be around to teach him the black arts in the dawn of time? He's Doom. He can stop sharks and heal himself. And there were plenty of prehistoric demonic entities running around earth at the time.

When when Reed channels the powers of all the FF teams that invaded the Earth, MOD says..."Stop! You could rupture the Multiverse!" Errrr.....wasn't he doing the same thing by destroying them all?
Yeah, but then it was him doing it.


[quote]


Ahhh.... but in X-Factor, Doom says he is the only one that figured out how to make changes take effect in your own timeline by using Doomlocks and an invariable, such as himself.
Again, alternate future. Never take stock in them as canon.
But this whole milllion year old Doom thing, plus Doom declaring "Will you not accept by now that Victor Von Doom can never die?" seems like Millar/Ahearne sort of parodying the numerous times he (or any comic book supervillain for that matter) has come back from the dead, such as when he was half dead and being dissected by the Beyonder. IMO, I think it's best that this development with Doom be retconned into another reality's Doom and not have this be "classic" ( or 616 if you prefer) Doom. I would say that that the Doom that acted like a toady and ended up as shark chum was an imposter that Doom put in place so that he could become the new apprentice. He has that device called the Remembrancer that implanted all his memories into Kristoff Venard so all he would have to do is clone himself as he did in in FF #200 and put that guy in place. Doom just lied about surviving and living for millions of year. He's probably back in Latveria laughing about how he got Reed to swallow that one.

So you see, with a little effort, it can all just go away and be forgotten, just like Millar's entire run on this title.

Yeah, well, it was a crappy run. And again, I generally like Millar, but man, that whole thing was pretty bad. Still, there are usually answers to these kinds of questions.

[Nefarius]

This story had more plot holes than a nice piece of cheese.I hate so much what they've done with Doom that i already convince myself that it's a non-canon story.

[Magneto Rocks]

Wow. People area ctually trying to use the X-Factor story to claim this one has a plot hole?

That's pretty funny really, given that there is absoloutely no precedent for the 'future' in one book affecting another.

[CyberCoyote]

Damage Control also rebuilds atomized citizens? :biggrin: Those guys are AWESOME!

[Sighphi]

Ok now we know that this didnt happened in the MU since Earth 616 was mentioned. Everyone knows that no one at Marvel refers or likes the term 616. Hell, Ghost Boxes shows that in earth 616 most of the X-men have been killed! So i am fine with this now.

Anyway..... what happened to Wyncham after the fight? MOD puts him to sleep and he sort of disappeared and was never referenced. That still leaves a huuuuuuge possibility of the dude coming back, there was a lot BS talking before MOD was finally killed so in all that time he could've put some suggestion that will STILL birth MOD.

Now for Doom.... how come Doom didnt get out of hell by reconstituting himself then? I'm sure his hate was strong back then. And it was funny that the Master of Doom was a Master to Doom TWO TIMES! And Doom doesnt need to wear the mask anymore since he is a totally different person, RIGHT?!??! And now that Doom is a tremendously super powerful being....... why isnt HE taking over the world? I better not see this dude listening to Osborn anymore.

And the guy with the glasses was......Banner? That was strange, not for Millar though, to have the dude there. I loved the Captain America T-rex though.

[Splatt]

So Doom is Marvel's version of Batman. Prep time and all that. Great... just great...

[Xero]

Now is the time to bring McDuffie back, he was one of the best writers this title ever had.

[Runguy]

Ok now we know that this didnt happened in the MU since Earth 616 was mentioned. Everyone knows that no one at Marvel refers or likes the term 616. Hell, Ghost Boxes shows that in earth 616 most of the X-men have been killed! So i am fine with this now.

Anyway..... what happened to Wyncham after the fight? MOD puts him to sleep and he sort of disappeared and was never referenced. That still leaves a huuuuuuge possibility of the dude coming back, there was a lot BS talking before MOD was finally killed so in all that time he could've put some suggestion that will STILL birth MOD.

Now for Doom.... how come Doom didnt get out of hell by reconstituting himself then? I'm sure his hate was strong back then. And it was funny that the Master of Doom was a Master to Doom TWO TIMES! And Doom doesnt need to wear the mask anymore since he is a totally different person, RIGHT?!??! And now that Doom is a tremendously super powerful being....... why isnt HE taking over the world? I better not see this dude listening to Osborn anymore.

And the guy with the glasses was......Banner? That was strange, not for Millar though, to have the dude there. I loved the Captain America T-rex though.

I don't think Doom was apprentice two times. It maybe that he traveled back in time to become more powerful to be able to face the MOD. Kind of how Loki went back to when Bur was killed and changed those events. The time hopping things always make my head hurt :eek:

[Bevbos]

Wait.. so Doom has existed for Millions of years? He's immortal now but waited until this very time to come into being? He never thought to just kill Wyncham himself? To appear as anything else? This all sounds very difficult. Did he just replace the Apprentice or was he always the Apprentice and The Marque's HR department forgot to do a background check when filling the position?

Guess I gotta read it through.

Makes sense to me. Doom's achilles heel has always been his ego; if not for his ego, he could have certainly taken it to Reed years ago, under a variety of scenarios. It makes sense he would wait for such an ultimately petty ego-satiating moment to return.

A great testament to Doom's incredible willpower and simultaneous incredible pettiness; a very fitting end to Millar's run (best FF since RAS was on "4," in my opinion).

[Mister Mets]

Immonen's got a future as a Hitch clone. The guy's a ridiculously versatile artist (his style here's very different from his Ultimate Spider-Man, which is different from Superman: Secret Identity.)

Despite the replacement creative team (er, who is Joe Ahearn?) this was pretty good, and worked as a finale to a ridiculously ambitious storyline (and within the pages of the Fantastic Four, I like ridiculously ambitious. I'll be interested to see how future creative teams handle the material (Doom's million year plot, the death of Aunt Petunia, the destruction of Latveria, Ben's reasons for dumping his fiancee.)

[Bevbos]

[QUOTE=Iron Maiden;9368726]Doom's a fast builder. And has Damage Control on retainer.

Didn't Doom rebuild castle Latveria with a cosmic cube in Dark Avengers recently?

Anyways, on another subject: what ever happened to the plotline wherein Ben's bride-to-be was just manipulating him? Maybe I need to re-read it, but I thought she was romancing him just to fulfill some as-yet-unrevealed plot point o'treachery. Am I totally wrong? Or was this plot point just dropped?

Funny how divided opinion is on this, but I guess that's pretty typical of Millar's work. You either love him or hate him (I'm in the former category).

[jade_nova]

Since Doom is now millions of years old, it must have been painful for him to watch himself lose to the Fantastic Four and knowing he can't really do anything to help.l

[Leocomix]

I think he rebuilt Latveria with a timecube. I guess he regularly makes temporal back-ups and uses them when Latveria crashes.

Let's solve this thing. I guess Millar planned for teh Watcher to be the one from this reality but was vetoed.
So we can use that to say this was the alternate Doom from the alternate Watcher's reality. Not very satisfying as Doom nees his revenge againt the Master. So what happened to real Doom?
This is my scenario: he transfers his mind into the megalodon so that he gets gulped but not chewed then spits himself back. Then decides to build a time machine but he needs raw materials so he builds rudimentary tools, then advanced tools, then robots programmed to build more robots, within a year he has an army of them who gather enough material for a time machine. He travels to present time, takes over the body of teh disciple so that the master will not recognise him. has the current adventure, transfers back to his own body, sends the disciple body to be ripped apart back in time.

[Sighphi]

What are you talking about? Doom is Doom. He somehow rebuilt himself as another person and got to become MOD's apprentice again. The Watcher was just a Watcher from one of the many dimensions they visited. He was killed for whatever reason the MOD wanted to kill him. He was, apparently, shown to show how powerful MOD was.

[streator]

this sounds like a bit of a mess but hopefully it'll read better in person. this will be my last fantastic four issue for a while, possibly ever.

[Leocomix]

I'm trying to solve the 1 million year stupidity, the "I was ripped apart but hate kept me alive for more than 75 millions years"

[bloodyarts]

I'm trying to solve the 1 million year stupidity, the "I was ripped apart but hate kept me alive for more than 75 millions years"

LOL! Exactly. Not a shred of sense in this.

[Iron Maiden]

Didn't Doom rebuild castle Latveria with a cosmic cube in Dark Avengers recently?).

True enough, but in FF#567, MOD not only destroyed the castle but we saw the people being vaporized . Now this means that Doom in the apprentice disguise just stood by and watched. That's pretty cold. I guess that could be why Latveria looked so deserted when he returned via Osborn's transport in Dark Avengers. Marvel's got some 'splainin' to do about that one.

And as was mentioned earlier, what about that whole fake out that Doom had where he was sleeping with Sue? So now it appears that Doom was playing mind games with himself??

This is why I ranted about editorial control being so lax at times. For example, originally Bendis wanted to use Magneto in the Cabal but it was nixed by Joe Q (I assume) at one of their retreats because of what Matt Fraction was doing with the character. Yet you have Doom's continuity all over the map lately. Why wasn't this the case with Doom?



Anyways, on another subject: what ever happened to the plotline wherein Ben's bride-to-be was just manipulating him? Maybe I need to re-read it, but I thought she was romancing him just to fulfill some as-yet-unrevealed plot point o'treachery. Am I totally wrong? Or was this plot point just dropped?).

Yes, I thought the same thing because when Ben first meets Debbie in the classroom, Debbie's friend tells her that most couples in America has this "arrangement" that if anyone has the chance to sleep with a superhero, they will look the other way. Her boyfriend was right on the scene complaining what took her so long after Ben and Debbie's date. It was also weird that Debbie happened to be in the studio audience when the boyfriend was on that talk show. So I think at some point, her arc was changed.

I also don't buy the whole thing about how Ben backed out because it would place Debbie at risk. Well, duh! Alicia was kidnapped 3 times by Doom, was brutally assaulted by Annilihus to the point where she was hospitalized and she was kidnapped by the Skrulls and held prisoner so that Johnny would end up married to Lyja instead. Admittedly, she had moved on to Johnny by then but still. I guess Ben wasn't paying attention.


Funny how divided opinion is on this, but I guess that's pretty typical of Millar's work. You either love him or hate him (I'm in the former category).

I think others have said it best on the forums, he's better off when he's not doing a regular Marvel title. The Wolverine arc in Old Man Logan works because he's messing around in his own playground, the same with 1985. Both of which I liked better than this. On the other hand, I didn't care for Civil War.


Wow. People area ctually trying to use the X-Factor story to claim this one has a plot hole?

That's pretty funny really, given that there is absoloutely no precedent for the 'future' in one book affecting another.

Oh, Marvel has screwed around with that before, as with Secret Wars. When Doom returned in FF#287-288 and wanted his original body restored to him, Reed told the Beyonder that the couldn't kill Doom in the present because he was in the Secret Wars in the past. Which would be the future if you go back in time...or something like that. :biggrin: Okay, we can drop this as a plot hole then because now I confused myself.

[Iron Maiden]

I'm trying to solve the 1 million year stupidity, the "I was ripped apart but hate kept me alive for more than 75 millions years"

Exactly, how would Doom's body not decay in all those years? He's not a cosmic entity or anywhere close to it at the point in time when MOD threw him back into the past. It's only when he became the apprentice, for the second time, that would have happened.

[widdershins]

Exactly, how would Doom's body not decay in all those years? He's not a cosmic entity or anywhere close to it at the point in time when MOD threw him back into the past. It's only when he became the apprentice, for the second time, that would have happened.


Serial Ovoid mind transfert and later black magic.

[CaptainCanada]

In 1985, Clyde Wyncham suffered brain trauma and was in a wheelchair being spoonfed. Granted, he still directed the villains attack but he was not "all there". When Ben brings him to the Baxter Building, he is in full control of his faculties.
The Marquis said last issue that his mind slowly repaired itself while he was in the machine over the years; hence, the Marquis from the future. So apparently Wyncham is mostly cognizant now.

[Iron Maiden]

What are you talking about? Doom is Doom. He somehow rebuilt himself as another person and got to become MOD's apprentice again. The Watcher was just a Watcher from one of the many dimensions they visited. He was killed for whatever reason the MOD wanted to kill him. He was, apparently, shown to show how powerful MOD was.

Nope.... check out the panel again. Doom is there at the beach with the dead Watcher and is explaining he was protecting his secret. But wouldn't the Watcher assigned to Earth be Uatu? That's why we're saying it doesn't make sense for it to be an alternate reality Watcher that was killed since he wouldn't be assigned to this Doom's Earth. Unless Uatu went out for a cigarette or something and he was covering for him.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y195/IronMaiden99/Comics%202009/FF569p24B.jpg

[Seraku]

damn, this issue was superb

why the hell couldn't the rest of Miullar's run have been this good? Was this his plan, Lower expectations so much and write one of the most awesome single issues in recent memory?

Millar you are a magnificent bastard

[Iron Maiden]

Serial Ovoid mind transfert and later black magic.

LOL...he'd have to wait millions of years just to wait for the first caveman to switch with!

damn, this issue was superb

why the hell couldn't the rest of Miullar's run have been this good? Was this his plan, Lower expectations so much and write one of the most awesome single issues in recent memory?

Look at the credits again. Joe Ahearne wrote it over a Millar plot. Even Millar himself admitted he was only partially responsible for the story.

And you must have a short memory. (joking). Seriously, IMO the MacDuffie FF/Doom time travel story was much tighter and better written, with the added bonus of Pellitier on the art.

[Sighphi]

Nope.... check out the panel again. Doom is there at the beach with the dead Watcher and is explaining he was protecting his secret. But wouldn't the Watcher assigned to Earth be Uatu? That's why we're saying it doesn't make sense for it to be an alternate reality Watcher that was killed since he wouldn't be assigned to this Doom's Earth. Unless Uatu went out for a cigarette or something and he was covering for him.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y195/IronMaiden99/Comics%202009/FF569p24B.jpg

Oh ok. Man...... Doom is powerful.

Anyway, back in 566 it's said that it's a Watcher from an alternate reality. Why he was killed it still up in the air besides the root being to keep Doom hidden.

And it's not that hard to understand, the book shows us that MOD was hopping realities and screwing around. He even brought a whole mess of F4s from those realities as his army. In one of those realities the Uatu there must created a scenario that lead to Doom killing him. The end.

[randomengine]

They should do a followup mini that explains Doom's journey during this whole time.

[agrich]

Personally I'm just trying to figure out what bothers people more about this arc: Doom not being powerful enough, or Doom being too powerful. :-)

[CyberCoyote]

Personally I'm just trying to figure out what bothers people more about this arc: Doom not being powerful enough, or Doom being too powerful. :-)

It's both :) His kneeling and cooing like an infatuated schoolgirl "Masters coming, Masters Coming!!!" and then getting a million year's bonus existence to perfect his abilities. He should be darned near all powerful now considering what he accomplished in a single life time.

[Seraku]

Seriously, IMO the MacDuffie FF/Doom time travel story was much tighter and better written, with the added bonus of Pellitier on the art.
well yeah, but I meant this specific issue was great, which surprised me cause I wasn't feeling the arc

plus it had Dinosaur Captain America

[Leocomix]

Personally I'm just trying to figure out what bothers people more about this arc: Doom not being powerful enough, or Doom being too powerful. :-)

Nothing to do with his power, more with how he survived having his members ripped from him and for a million years. Also why kill an alternate Watcher and dump him on 616 Earth? Is he beyond his rivality with Richards or is still the same?

[Sighphi]

Personally I'm just trying to figure out what bothers people more about this arc: Doom not being powerful enough, or Doom being too powerful. :-)

Well, as funny as that this that IS the overall problem with the arc.
Fist we got this "Master" that Doom respects and all this craziness and now we end with a dude that can take down Watchers. This is RED HULK levels we are talking about here :eek: ! So from this point on if we dont see this dude handing out @$$ whoopings left and right....... It's a Doombot. And hell, Doombots shold be getting an upgrade as well. This dude just went cosmic, man!

[Iron Maiden]

well yeah, but I meant this specific issue was great, which surprised me cause I wasn't feeling the arc

plus it had Dinosaur Captain America

Now that part did tickle me. More T-Rex Cap! or was that a raptor. Whatever. It was cool.

Well, as funny as that this that IS the overall problem with the arc.
Fist we got this "Master" that Doom respects and all this craziness and now we end with a dude that can take down Watchers. This is RED HULK levels we are talking about here :eek: ! So from this point on if we dont see this dude handing out @$$ whoopings left and right....... It's a Doombot. And hell, Doombots shold be getting an upgrade as well. This dude just went cosmic, man!

Now it really makes you wonder who the guy was behind the door that had the Cabal all under Norman's thumb.

[TheDrizzt]

I don't think the changes to Doom will be referenced anywhere in the future.
If they immediately dumped the infinitely better Simonson take on Doom years back, I daresay this one will live for only about five... four... three...

[agrich]

Now it really makes you wonder who the guy was behind the door that had the Cabal all under Norman's thumb.

This is the second time I've seen this question recently (the other was in one of the Miracleman threads). Wasn't it The Sentry?

[XPac]

This is the second time I've seen this question recently (the other was in one of the Miracleman threads). Wasn't it The Sentry?

Bendis said in the Bendis tapes that we'll find out I THINK in December or something like that.

I assumed it was Sentry... and it still might be. But at least on the podcast he's making it somewhat of a mystery. Though not a mystery he's milking.

Who knows... maybe it's Marvelman.

[DeadXMan]

The only good thing I can say about this "comic" is it is finally over and the "hickimen fixes everything" can finally begin.

The ending was cliché and unremarkable.

Thisd has been an eye

[DeadXMan]

The only good thing I can say about this "comic" is it is finally over and the "Hickimen fixes everything" can finally begin.

The ending was cliché and unremarkable.

[XPac]

It's weird how my view of Millar could sink so drastically.

Coming off of Ultimates, I thought he was god's gift to comics.

But between Civil War and this, my view of him has sharply and steadily chipped away. Hopefully his return to the Ultimates will show us more of the man's potential.

[Trey]

this sounds like a bit of a mess but hopefully it'll read better in person. this will be my last fantastic four issue for a while, possibly ever.

Are you dying?

[Trey]

wah, wha, Doom this, Doom that, wah, wah.


This was a cool issue. Liked the art as much as Hitch. I've been pleased with Millar's run. Now how does this tie into 1985 and Old Man Logan, which i haven't been reading?

[DeadXMan]

wah, wha, Doom this, Doom that, wah, wah.


This was a cool issue. Liked the art as much as Hitch. I've been pleased with Millar's run. Now how does this tie into 1985 and Old Man Logan, which i haven't been reading?

no it wasn't. It was cliché, boring, and unoriginal.


How do they tie in

They all suck. that's how it ties in.

[CyberCoyote]

This was a cool issue. Liked the art as much as Hitch. I've been pleased with Millar's run. Now how does this tie into 1985 and Old Man Logan, which i haven't been reading?

Wyncham/MoD was the guy from 1985. but there he was a drooling quadriplegic and 'The Most Dangerous Super-Villain to EVER EXIST".. or the guy that helps.. Reeds never been known as a smart-type of guy.. Not sure about the old man logan tie ins. I think the Wolvie stuff was.. sketchy?

[Sabrinaset]

Reading this comic only makes me miss Waid and 'Ringo even more. :frown:

[DeadXMan]

Reading this comic only makes me miss Waid and 'Ringo even more. :frown:

I hear ya.:frown: :frown:

[RunningWithJuanPablo]

A MASSIVE time-f#5% here. In theory it was mere moments or hours ago that the then-Doom existed followed by the arrival of the now-Doom who's built up to be an incredible badass to destroy the likes of anything that stands before him. Well Doom better have his own personal Dark Reign that lasts a few years, otherwise this was rather stupid imo. Sure Reed has a mind, but it'll be illogical if Doom is not smarter than Reed, Val, Einstein, or whoever now that he's had these millions of years to build upon his already brilliant mind. I've liked this arc, as it was my first ever Fantastic Four arc, along with the DR story, but I just wonder how writers and Marvel will tackle this new reveal.

As for Ben, I think his action to call off the marriage was rather noble for he clearly does not want to lose his gf because he'd probably go all emo, and one thing leads to another.... Does this now mean their relationship status went from "about to be married" to "no longer steady; just friends"? Well I guess Ben can always go hang around with Mac Gargan if he.....

Oh, I was rather surprised that Ben was going to kill that defenseless chap earlier, before the sudden change of heart. I didn't know that was in his nature. Has he always been that way?

[Lupek]

I enjoyed this issue, this arc and Millar and Hitch's entire run. I wish they had stayed on longer. It was 1,000 times better than McDuffies FF.

I'm not sure how long Hickman is on the book but I am hoping for something epic, set in space, like the Green Lantern books over at DC.

[Iron Maiden]

This was a cool issue. Liked the art as much as Hitch. I've been pleased with Millar's run. Now how does this tie into 1985 and Old Man Logan, which i haven't been reading?

As mentioned, Clyde Wyncham was from another reality where the Marvel heroes were just fictional. He sustained a injury to his brain as a child when his mother clubbed him over his head after she freaked out about his powers. When his comic book collection was taken away, he became angry and used his powers to bring the villains over from the MU into his dimension. Under Clyde's powers, the villains went on a rampage until Clyde's childhood friend friend Jerry was able to save the day when he used Clyde's dimensional portal to go and get the heroes to come over and chase the villains off. Doom was seen briefly in the beginning of the series but he didn't participatein the attack and was immune to Clyde's powers.

In Old Man Logan, there has been a major battle between all the heroes and villains and the villains won. The Red Skull became the new President of the US and other villains divided up the country. Doom had the Midwest, Magneto the West, etc. The tie in with Clyde was that the some of the villains found him in Area 87 and set him free. Clyde's powers were awakened and he killed all of those who set him free and then went on a billion year journey to evolve into MOD. This was shown in a flashback in the FF and Clyde hasn't been in Old Man Logan at all as far as I recall. The final chapter comes out in September IIRC.

[Harold of the Rocks]

Now is the time to bring McDuffie back, he was one of the best writers this title ever had.His run is very underrated. They should have 'postponed' Millar's run instead and given McDuffie a longer run on the title. If they were to do that, get Pelletier back on as well.

Didn't Doom rebuild castle Latveria with a cosmic cube in Dark Avengers recently?

Anyways, on another subject: what ever happened to the plotline wherein Ben's bride-to-be was just manipulating him? Maybe I need to re-read it, but I thought she was romancing him just to fulfill some as-yet-unrevealed plot point o'treachery. Am I totally wrong? Or was this plot point just dropped?

Funny how divided opinion is on this, but I guess that's pretty typical of Millar's work. You either love him or hate him (I'm in the former category).Maybe that plot was going to go somewhere but Millar knew he wasn't going to be able to develop it (yet) and it had to be dropped... so Deb truly falls for Ben and doesn't follow up on her treacherous plans. At the time, I had the feeling she had ulterior motives, but maybe we mis-read that or it had to be dropped. Maybe she was supposed to announce something more 'explosive' at the TV studio and she changed her mind for an (as of now) unexplained reason. Maybe Hickman will follow up on this?

Nothing to do with his power, more with how he survived having his members ripped from him and for a million years. Also why kill an alternate Watcher and dump him on 616 Earth? Is he beyond his rivality with Richards or is still the same?How Doom survived is the biggest 'plot hole' I see here... I don't think the other things are ones that can't be explained with run-of-the-mill comic book universe rules of death/magic/time travel/alternate universe. 'His hate keeping him alive' is pretty weak if that's literally the reason and not a colorful way of saying that something (his hate) drove his will to survive instead.

As far as the 'alternate reality Watcher'... maybe that Uatu discovered something in his own plane of reality that threatened Doom's plans. So Doom killed him but had to 'hide the body' from that dimension... so he brought his body here. Keep in mind the Marquis and his apprentice (Doom in disguise) seemingly bounced around realities regularly. Maybe it was in the alternate dimension that Doom got discovered. Doesn't take much to find 'plausible' answers. Assume 'alt-Uatu' was not outside of his own reality but still learned something threatening to Doom's plans and you have your answer.

I think those of you that feel it makes no sense for Doom to 'deceive and torture himself' are reading it wrong. The Marquis was simply implanting a 'five year' fantasy into his head over the course of a split second. Seeing the apprentice shed his 'Sue skin' what the Marquis wanted Doom to see. Even if Doom (as the apprentice) was actually doing that 'to himself', keep in mind his plot for revenge was millions of years in the making, and implanting a fantasy into his (now 'past') head for a split second is a small price to pay for biding a little more time to earn Marquis' trust and wait for the proper moment to strike.

Valeria asks Sue to 'power down' at one point, so apparently they had some means to activate and deactivate their power boost from the 'Army of 4s'. That's why they didn't die after the 23.4 seconds... they turned off the power boost. Maybe Reed had an auto-timer to turn it off. Hey, I thought of that and I'm not a genius... hmmm...

That Doom would suffer millenia for revenge and a power upgrade seems pretty in-character to me. And Doom's always talking himself up. True he finished off a weakened Marquis, but we don't really know HOW MUCH more powerful he is. He says he's an 'infinitely superior' being, but Doom's never been one for hyperbole. So his boost could be 'modest enough' as to not contradict any current stories 'outright'.

Reading this comic only makes me miss Waid and 'Ringo even more. :frown:A de-powered Galactus hungry for billiard balls? Uh, I think your sense of nostalgia is clouding your memory of what you actually read at the time. ;) 'Ringo's art was quite good though and he is greatly missed.

I also thought Immonen did a great job on this book - as well as New Avengers for that matter. Overall Millar/Hitch's run wasn't all that bad. I do like that Millar's trying for really over-the-top story ideas that seem to almost out-do the next. I mean, Reed building an anti-Galactus suit to take down indestructible CapBot, Nu World and it's Nu Defenders, the future death of Sue (or a possible one now), Galactus siphoned like a battery, you can't deny there's been some pretty far out ideas thrown into the mix. I think Fantastic Four is a great place for that kind of stuff. I admit that sometimes in the middle of Millar's stuff it seems so outlandish that there's no logical conclusion... but usually for me, there is (comic book logic of course) and it's pretty entertaining along the way. He seems to have always known where he's taking you, and wants to keep you guessing along the way. I think sometimes we need a little more to go on. Perhaps in this story he could have foreshadowed some of this by showing a flashback of Doom being the one to take down the alt-Uatu (and show it on panel!) maybe an issue back. Then maybe all this time travel / alt dimension stuff doesn't seem so rushed at the conclusion because you've had a chance to consider it based on stuff in the previous book. I think that's a fair criticsm of Millar, that he keeps maybe just a few too many secrets from the reader sometimes and needs to throw us a few hints so we can wrap our heads around the finale. He did a great job of that in Ultimate Fantastic Four in the story 'President Thor', just enough teases and hints in a time-travel story so that even though the final reveal is pretty wacky, you're a little more ready for it. This had a little of that feel, but like I said maybe an extra scene teasing (but not revealing) the Doom/Apprentice storyline would have been good. Genius Valeria is also a good development. I'm satisfied with Millar/Hitch's run in totality, Immonen did a great job, but that fill-in art (Neil Edwards in issues #567 & 568) was horrible and jarring in contrast to Hitch's work. Some of the inking was pretty inconsistent, and I'm not normally one who can tell a huge difference in inking. Overall the stories concluded rewardingly and it had that 'anything can happen' feel that a Fantastic Four book should have. Did it rival Stan and Jack's run? Of course not. I thought it was a fun ride, although a brief one. Here's hoping the next team can build on the legacy and bring us more great stories.

[Iron Maiden]

A MASSIVE time-f#5% here. In theory it was mere moments or hours ago that the then-Doom existed followed by the arrival of the now-Doom who's built up to be an incredible badass to destroy the likes of anything that stands before him. Well Doom better have his own personal Dark Reign that lasts a few years, otherwise this was rather stupid imo. Sure Reed has a mind, but it'll be illogical if Doom is not smarter than Reed, Val, Einstein, or whoever now that he's had these millions of years to build upon his already brilliant mind. I've liked this arc, as it was my first ever Fantastic Four arc, along with the DR story, but I just wonder how writers and Marvel will tackle this new reveal.

As for Ben, I think his action to call off the marriage was rather noble for he clearly does not want to lose his gf because he'd probably go all emo, and one thing leads to another.... Does this now mean their relationship status went from "about to be married" to "no longer steady; just friends"? Well I guess Ben can always go hang around with Mac Gargan if he.....

Oh, I was rather surprised that Ben was going to kill that defenseless chap earlier, before the sudden change of heart. I didn't know that was in his nature. Has he always been that way?

Ben has taken a while to adjust but there was a time when he was just as likely to take a swing at Reed as he would any other villian who ticked him off. When the FF were defeated by the first Frightful Four team, they lost their powers. In the meantime, Doom had discovered that Reed had tricked him into thinking he was defeated in their previous encounter. He came back to NY to get revenge on the FF. Even with Daredevil's help, the FF were against the ropes fighting Doom and Reed had come up with a device to get their powers back. Ben was forced into becoming the Thing again since the team need to be back at full strength. The Thing took on Doom one and one, fueled by the anger at losing out on a chance to be human. Once Ben had overcome everything Doom could throw at him, the rest of the team had to talk him out of killing him. As it was, he nearly crushed Doom's hands, an injury that he still nurses a grudge about.

Man, if Millar was your only taste of the FF, you should really look into getting some of the trades by John Byrne, Lee/Kirby or Waid/Wieringo.

[Jason Abbadon]

I think he rebuilt Latveria with a timecube. I guess he regularly makes temporal back-ups and uses them when Latveria crashes.

Let's solve this thing. I guess Millar planned for teh Watcher to be the one from this reality but was vetoed.
So we can use that to say this was the alternate Doom from the alternate Watcher's reality. Not very satisfying as Doom nees his revenge againt the Master. So what happened to real Doom?
This is my scenario: he transfers his mind into the megalodon so that he gets gulped but not chewed then spits himself back. .

Yep.
Victor Von Meglodoom.

Makes that captain America T-rex seem kinda tame by comparison.

It does not have to be an alternate relatity Doom that killed that watcher- Doom probably went dimension-jumping for a while just to meet up with Wyncham- all watchers seem to view alternate realities (via monitors like in innumerable What If issues) and Doom likely had to kill one that got too nosy....maybe that was an alternate-reality rogue watcher that taught Doom some stuff before Doom killed him for knowing too much.

Man, we are all jumping through hoops to justify a REALLY CRAPPY STORY!
Somewhere a Marvel editor laughs at our dedcation to the characters.
Damage Control also rebuilds atomized citizens? :biggrin: Those guys are AWESOME!
Damage Control CEO- Owen Reese.

[Magneto Rocks]

Nice final issue. Not up to par with the best issues of the run, but not one of the weaker ones either. To be honest, I'd expected to enjoy the resolution to the Marquis plot and dislike the wedding thing- but as it happens, the Marquis resoltuion was okay and the wedding really, really worked for me.

Plot holes? Sure, no more than 90.99% of stories (Including McDuffie's run) have these days, but of course, he isn't as polarising as Millar so there's nowhere near as much exageration or nitpicking, but that's just par for the course.

I enjoyed the story more than the storytelling for the main plot. A lot of the ideas were very strong- alternate FFs, younger Clyde vs the Marquis, the FF having the power of all FFs, Doom's big return, but not all of them were told well. The Thing's decision to kill CLyde and his setting off to do so happened too abruptly, and we never got enough insight into the other FFs to care about them as anything but cannon fodder. Likewise, the reappearance of Clyde was too abrupt. HOWEVER, the FF becoming super-chrged with the other FFs was brilliant (And the '23.4 seconds' line was extremely badass). The return of Doom was expected, but I'm not sure anybody called it in this way, and I loved it for that. It doesn't really radically alter Doom other than making him a ****lot more advanced in the Black Arts, but I'm fine with that, and "SILENCE!" had me grinning like a loon. As always, the Marquis made a colossal mistake to underestimate Doctor Doom. But it could have been so much more with better storytelling.

The wedding... I did not think it was going to work. As has been well documneted, no-one really cares about Debbie... but it turns ouit, we didn't need to- we just needed to care about The Thing. All the set-up seemed to be pointing either at Debbie dying or her deciding she couldn't handle it. That it was Ben in the end who couldn't was both a twist and something that made perfect sense, especially when we saw the others who had lost. So there were some very sweet, sad moments in there, such as the others walking in on her and Ben, and her hug with Sue. And the very end- with Ben asking Reed and Reed buying him a drink, was a very nice way to finish it, since Ben's friendship with Reed is so often just taken for granted.

This brings me to a surprise of mine with the run as a whole - Millar is renowned for his action, not his character work. But I think a consistent theme of the run is that he has been at his best in quieter scenes. Some of the big action sequences have been good, but not great, a few have been worse than that. But it's been the quiet moments that have felt both the most true to the original characters and also the most effective- Reed and Sue's anniversary, Ben and Debbie in the Fantasticar, Reed and Val, Franklin's feelings towards Val, and now the final wedding. A surprise for me, but a welcome one, as the heart of the FF is family. I honestly never expected that Millar of all people would leave me saying the action was weak but that he 'got' the family dynamic better than most.

As an overall run, I'd give Millar/Hitch 8/10 - possibly 8.5. Overall, far better in concept than execution and not quite up to my hopes, but the depth of concept in there is something FF hasn't seen since Waid, and the characterisation was more consistent than it has been in a long time as well.

[XPac]

A de-powered Galactus hungry for billiard balls? Uh, I think your sense of nostalgia is clouding your memory of what you actually read at the time. ;) 'Ringo's art was quite good though and he is greatly missed.



I wasn't a fan of the depowered Galactus thing either... but like any writer, there are going to be hits and misses especially when they had a descent run on a book.

I think people are nostalgic for Waid because no writer since him has really taken the FF and made it their own. They became the modern day measuring stick from which all other FF runs are measured. That's the standard that the die hard FF readers wanted the JMS, McDuffies, and the Millars to meet.

To this day, I think FF readers are still waiting for the next Waid to come along and really... someone that really gets the FF books and universe, and really knows how to run with it. I don't think we've gotten that just yet.

[Magneto Rocks]

Right. Waid/Ringo was the only modern run that really explored the FF, loved them, expanded their universe and built upon them. If nothing else, all three subsequent runs have been too short for that- and all three of them have also been interrupted for various reasons (The first two by crossovers, the last by writer/artist complications for the final chapters)

[Bob Violence]

I liked the Millar/Hitch run up until this arc. The resolution of the MOD story was terrible and some of that rests on Ahearn. What happened to the all the 'outs' Millar gave us in the Doom fantasy? The weapon that could stop the MOD? That half-issue fantasy was padding. The idea of Doom surviving 75 million years on basically, malice, is laughable, but not in a good way.
I liked the character stuff in the run, and the Thing/Debbie romance was resolved in a believable way. But I think Millar and Marvel have a problem dealing with alternate realities and timelines, because they obviously don't have an consistent editorial policy.

[Iron Maiden]

Yep.

Man, we are all jumping through hoops to justify a REALLY CRAPPY STORY!
Somewhere a Marvel editor laughs at our dedcation to the characters.

Damage Control CEO- Owen Reese.

Yes, it makes you wonder if Doctor Doom to the nth power can bring back all the Latverians to life again.

I really have to wonder if this whole over the top ending is a one finger salute to comic book geeks that you know, actually pay attention when we read. A couple of more plot holes or logical farts come to mind when I went back and re-read issue #567 ...

After Doom is shaken out of his fantasy world by the Clyde and the Apprentice (who we know now was Doom), the Marquis then turns his blood to acid and calcified his heart. He was already a goner even before the megladons would have got to him. One would think the acid alone would have destroyed his brain and other internal organs while the Marquis was debating his final fate.

It is the Doom as the apprentice who first suggests of disposing himself in some prehistoric age. Why shoot yourself in the foot and go that far back in time? One supposes that Doom is already calculating how long it would take to change his molecules but wouldn't it have been easier to just use the old mind swap trick on someone in some other time or place? That is kind of lame but no more than the logic behind how he made himself well nigh immortal.

Why does Doom still need a mask? Wouldn't he have a different face since this Doom has new molecules?

Even more important.....is Aunt Petunia still dead?? :eek:

[agrich]

It is the Doom as the apprentice who first suggests of disposing himself in some prehistoric age. Why shoot yourself in the foot and go that far back in time?

Presumably the answer for this is that that was how he remembered it occurring. So for him to become the apprentice, he believes things have to occur the way they did previously.


Even more important.....is Aunt Petunia still dead?? :eek:

Good question; I'm curious about that myself.

I disagree with the idea that the end of the Thing/Debbie relationship was believable. In the first place, if all these bad guys were leaving threatening messages on the Fantastic Four's answering machine (er....), the Thing simply not marrying her wouldn't stop them from planning to kill her. "I wanted to kill your bride, but if she's just someone you loved but decided not to marry, I guess I'll leave her alone." Arguably it will be a lot easier to kill her if she's not living at the Baxter Building.

But in the second place, how long was Alicia Masters "the Thing's beloved"? And she got kidnapped once or twice over the decades, but nobody ever killed her. And she was blind, plus her own dad was criminally insane. So if he could date Alicia for years and years without deciding to break it off to protect her, the idea that it would suddenly occur to him to break things off with Debbie to protect her seems a little off to me. Among other things, it suggests he didn't care as much about Alicia as you'd like to think he did.

[Iron Maiden]

Presumably the answer for this is that that was how he remembered it occurring. So for him to become the apprentice, he believes things have to occur the way they did previously.

I suppose that might be logical but anytime you deal with time travel, it gets very convoluted. Reed had the right idea when he said he could have just killed MOD but I suppose that was because he had to wait until he got trained to do...whatever it is he can do now. Can he bring back the dead in Latveria? or Aunt Petunia? There's all this talk about training but we've not seen anywhere that MOD could grant any specific powers. I guess since none of the other cosmic entities didn't stop him, like Galactus, the Stranger, Eternity, the Living Tribunal, etc. MOD must be the MOST POWERFUL BEING THAT EVER LIVED! :wink:

Anyone else notice yet another similarity to the Abraxas story? That one also ended with a gaggle of multiverse cosmic entities showing up in a double page splash and essentially doing ....nothing.



I disagree with the idea that the end of the Thing/Debbie relationship was believable. In the first place, if all these bad guys were leaving threatening messages on the Fantastic Four's answering machine (er....), the Thing simply not marrying her wouldn't stop them from planning to kill her. "I wanted to kill your bride, but if she's just someone you loved but decided not to marry, I guess I'll leave her alone." Arguably it will be a lot easier to kill her if she's not living at the Baxter Building.

But in the second place, how long was Alicia Masters "the Thing's beloved"? And she got kidnapped once or twice over the decades, but nobody ever killed her. And she was blind, plus her own dad was criminally insane. So if he could date Alicia for years and years without deciding to break it off to protect her, the idea that it would suddenly occur to him to break things off with Debbie to protect her seems a little off to me. Among other things, it suggests he didn't care as much about Alicia as you'd like to think he did.

I mentioned the same feelings in a previous post. Alicia had been in jeopardy from day one of their relationship. Doom alone kidnapped her 3 times, let alone the brutal assault against her that was committed by Annilihus.

[Magneto Rocks]

After Doom is shaken out of his fantasy world by the Clyde and the Apprentice (who we know now was Doom), the Marquis then turns his blood to acid and calcified his heart. He was already a goner even before the megladons would have got to him. One would think the acid alone would have destroyed his brain and other internal organs while the Marquis was debating his final fate.

Well, it's made pretty clear here that Doom's physical body effectively was destroyed anyway, so that's hardly a 'new' development.

It is the Doom as the apprentice who first suggests of disposing himself in some prehistoric age. Why shoot yourself in the foot and go that far back in time? One supposes that Doom is already calculating how long it would take to change his molecules but wouldn't it have been easier to just use the old mind swap trick on someone in some other time or place? That is kind of lame but no more than the logic behind how he made himself well nigh immortal.

Doom knew that this was when he was dropped... because the Apprentice had already been dropped there. :) It's simple. PLUS of course we know he needed the time, since the centuries he spent already learning the Black Arts wasn't enough, so he made good use of the time.

Why does Doom still need a mask? Wouldn't he have a different face since this Doom has new molecules?

Doom, exist in someone else's body!? Blasphemy! I have no doubt he would recreate his old body as soon as this shell was unnecessary!

Even more important.....is Aunt Petunia still dead?? :eek:

I thought that was clearly implied to be a vision, rather than reality...?

[DoomScribe]

Of course Doom was the Marquis' mysterious apprentice. It had to be from the start, who else would it be?

The continuity is all fouled up. All the time travel and alternate universe hopping doesn't help much. What was the alternate Watcher doing on a beach in this reality? How could Doom survive being munched a million years in the past, with no technology to save him? Why didn't he age? In the end it won't matter for anything. There's a new writer on the way, and Marvel continuity has a way of being conveniently disregarded. "Not so in the old days!" </wagging shriveled finger> Meh. As you were.

The plot holes are big enough to drive a dwarf star through. There will be no explanations, because that would mean returning to a doomed storyline. The only redeeming act in this story arc is that Doom didn't die. And Doom got to waste the bad guy. And reply, "Inifinite pain is a welcome price to pay." And "You are of no consequence. I bear as little animus for you as the braninless mesgalodon that tore me asunder."

But still he has to threaten ... "Be under no illusions, you will meet death if our paths cross again. Should the prospect appeal, you may find me in Latveria."

Of course, next time we see Doom in Latveria, odds are that he will be more or less the same as he's always been.

Continuity? Believability? Consistent character treatment? wazzat?

ahh, it's just funny books people. I hope for a glimmer of awe and wonder, but know they are few and far between.

[XPac]

Of course Doom was the Marquis' mysterious apprentice. It had to be from the start, who else would it be?

The continuity is all fouled up. All the time travel and alternate universe hopping doesn't help much. What was the alternate Watcher doing on a beach in this reality? How could Doom survive being munched a million years in the past, with no technology to save him? Why didn't he age? In the end it won't matter for anything. There's a new writer on the way, and Marvel continuity has a way of being conveniently disregarded. "Not so in the old days!" </wagging shriveled finger> Meh. As you were.

The plot holes are big enough to drive a dwarf star through. There will be no explanations, because that would mean returning to a doomed storyline. The only redeeming act in this story arc is that Doom didn't die. And Doom got to waste the bad guy. And reply, "Inifinite pain is a welcome price to pay." And "You are of no consequence. I bear as little animus for you as the braninless mesgalodon that tore me asunder."

But still he has to threaten ... "Be under no illusions, you will meet death if our paths cross again. Should the prospect appeal, you may find me in Latveria."

Of course, next time we see Doom in Latveria, odds are that he will be more or less the same as he's always been.

Continuity? Believability? Consistent character treatment? wazzat?

ahh, it's just funny books people. I hope for a glimmer of awe and wonder, but know they are few and far between.

It's possible the next FF writer might try to resolve some of this Doom stuff. If he doesn't, I wouldn't be shocked if someone didn't at least give it a shot.

It is kinda lame that Millar would just kind of drop all this on such an important highly used character as Doom, then kind of just take off with so little explanation.

Millar should at least do an FF annual or something to explain a few more things.

[Jason Abbadon]

Continuity? Believability? Consistent character treatment? wazzat?

ahh, it's just funny books people. I hope for a glimmer of awe and wonder, but know they are few and far between.
Well, since the storyline was four or five issues at a cost of $3-4 each issue, I'd demand a HELL of a lot more.

Consider how pissed you'd be if you went to a movie, dropped $15 bucks to see it and it was this crap.
Would you really go see a sequel- even if that sequel was written and directed by other people?
That's exactly what marvel is asking us to do with FF- swallow the really bad stuff and keep coming back for more.

Man, I'm really disapointed in FF nowadays- next issue looks just as bad, with reed having a Captain America phisique all of a sudden.

[FlyingFox]

It's drastic, then the writer just walks away from it and leaves it for everyone else to actually work with. That's like writing something like Civil Wa.. oh, wait. Gotcha.


So you expect Mark Millar to write every single comic that came out after Civil War?


plus it had Dinosaur Captain America


Yes, that was awesome.

[CyberCoyote]

So you expect Mark Millar to write every single comic that came out after Civil War?


Heavens please, no. Just stating that he does the EASY part, then leaves it for everyone else to deal with the ramifications of what's left behind. Millar just writes for the panel, he doesn't care or worry about the aftermath of what he writes because.. he doesn't have to I guess. Because of CW the New Avengers and Mighty were on two sides of the playing field, but they were casually tossed together while they were at war with one another in the FF with no explanation.. the aftermath of his own story didn't matter. Reminds me of my kid who leaves a big mess behind and expects Mom to clean it up so he can play again later.

[Runguy]

Heavens please, no. Just stating that he does the EASY part, then leaves it for everyone else to deal with the ramifications of what's left behind. Millar just writes for the panel, he doesn't care or worry about the aftermath of what he writes because.. he doesn't have to I guess. Because of CW the New Avengers and Mighty were on two sides of the playing field, but they were casually tossed together while they were at war with one another in the FF with no explanation.. the aftermath of his own story didn't matter. Reminds me of my kid who leaves a big mess behind and expects Mom to clean it up so he can play again later.

I wonder if it's possible that Millar had consulted with the new FF writer (Hickman) regarding the handoff (kind of how Bendis did with Brubaker and Brubaker has done with Diggle on DD).

[CyberCoyote]

I wonder if it's possible that Millar had consulted with the new FF writer (Hickman) regarding the handoff (kind of how Bendis did with Brubaker and Brubaker has done with Diggle on DD).

I hope so. There was no handshake from JMS or McDuffie to Millar, and Millar stated he gave Ahearne 'a rough idea' or some such thing to finish the story he started. Hickman, if he didn't get a meeting, at least did his homework, though, as Nu Earth and other aspects of the past 18 months are being visited.

[XPac]

I wonder if it's possible that Millar had consulted with the new FF writer (Hickman) regarding the handoff (kind of how Bendis did with Brubaker and Brubaker has done with Diggle on DD).

I think Millar left a relatively clean break though. I don't think there were TOO many dangling threads that the next writer needs to tackle, aside from maybe Dooms new status (which I imagine every Dark Reign book containing Doom will need to aware of).

Based on the Dark Reign book, I think there's a bigger interest in taking up threads from Millars CW book rather than his FF book.

[Sabrinaset]

A de-powered Galactus hungry for billiard balls? Uh, I think your sense of nostalgia is clouding your memory of what you actually read at the time. ;) 'Ringo's art was quite good though and he is greatly missed.

Well, they said it better ...

I wasn't a fan of the depowered Galactus thing either... but like any writer, there are going to be hits and misses especially when they had a descent run on a book.

I think people are nostalgic for Waid because no writer since him has really taken the FF and made it their own. They became the modern day measuring stick from which all other FF runs are measured. That's the standard that the die hard FF readers wanted the JMS, McDuffies, and the Millars to meet.

To this day, I think FF readers are still waiting for the next Waid to come along and really... someone that really gets the FF books and universe, and really knows how to run with it. I don't think we've gotten that just yet.

Right. Waid/Ringo was the only modern run that really explored the FF, loved them, expanded their universe and built upon them. If nothing else, all three subsequent runs have been too short for that- and all three of them have also been interrupted for various reasons (The first two by crossovers, the last by writer/artist complications for the final chapters)

Also, I kind of liked Galen as he tried to reconnect with a mortality that he had been seperated from for billions of years. Heck, the weak part of Waid's run would have been Kirby as God. But the thing with Waid was, his stuff progressed, it made sense, and we didn't have to sit around on a board and try to explain how or why things were happening because we had a decent undestanding of it. Now, we might have disagreed as to whether that was the correct decision to go in, but at least it was understandable. Millar's stuff has been pretty chaotic as he throws stuff out there and hopes some of it will stick.

So you expect Mark Millar to write every single comic that came out after Civil War?

I kind of do expect him to at least be consistent with his own stories. Like the one where he had everyone who was NOT registered with the SHRA was supposed to be arrested on sight. And, uhm, looking at Ben's wedding, I'm seeing quite a few unregistered people there ... hey, New York has police, right? Osborn out there somewhere? Heck, even Reed saying everyone THIS side of registration is out there? ... Is it really too much to ask Millar to remember at least SOME of what he wrote? Even just the big stuff?

[vitruvian]

Maybe I just missed it... but where exactly was Franklin throughout this entire storyline? It's especially interesting that he doesn't seem to have been around anywhere, given how close the power set of both Clyde Wynchams is to Franklin's full potential.

[Iron Maiden]

Now that you mention it, Franklin was not really a factor at all. We saw Valeria several times in #569, helping Reed build the enervator gizmo, she was supposed to be watching the monitors of the building, she's blogging etc. When MOD and the Apprentice crash right through the Baxter Building, catching the FF by surprise the kids are nowhere around in #568. The other weird thing was when Reed comes back from talking with MOD, Ben says they've been fighting off the other FF teams for weeks. Usually, the FF passes off the kids to someone like Medusa so that they can keep them safe. Maybe he was in a safe room in the Baxter Building with some Doombots to keep him company.

I gave up trying to make sense of it and I'm just glad Millar is gone.

[vitruvian]

Now that you mention it, Franklin was not really a factor at all. We saw Valeria several times in #569, helping Reed build the enervator gizmo, she was supposed to be watching the monitors of the building, she's blogging etc. When MOD and the Apprentice crash right through the Baxter Building, catching the FF by surprise the kids are nowhere around in #568. The other weird thing was when Reed comes back from talking with MOD, Ben says they've been fighting off the other FF teams for weeks. Usually, the FF passes off the kids to someone like Medusa so that they can keep them safe. Maybe he was in a safe room in the Baxter Building with some Doombots to keep him company.

I gave up trying to make sense of it and I'm just glad Millar is gone.

Maybe it was really Franklin behind all of it. The stress of maintaining the sliding timescale for the last thirty-odd years has got to be getting to him.

[Iron Maiden]

That works for me. If Hickman works it out right, he can wipe the whole thing away with a scene with Franklin and Reed.

Franklin: "Look Dad, I found that blue ball of mine again and decided to play around with it"

Reed: "Franklin... I thought I put that away. Here give that back to me and don't play with that anymore."

[Jason Abbadon]

Yes, it makes you wonder if Doctor Doom to the nth power can bring back all the Latverians to life again.

I really have to wonder if this whole over the top ending is a one finger salute to comic book geeks that you know, actually pay attention when we read. A couple of more plot holes or logical farts come to mind when I went back and re-read issue #567 ...

After Doom is shaken out of his fantasy world by the Clyde and the Apprentice (who we know now was Doom), the Marquis then turns his blood to acid and calcified his heart. He was already a goner even before the megladons would have got to him. One would think the acid alone would have destroyed his brain and other internal organs while the Marquis was debating his final fate.


I have been thinking on this a bit- the Aprentice (doom) is not under Wyncham's nose all the time- it's convievable that he went back in time and saved himself from the Megladons, healed himself up, gave himself a handjob and returned to the present to fight Ben in the desert all in the blink of an eye.
Time travel accounts for at least some of the relative stupidity.

Nothing excuses Aprentice-Doom having a messed up face- he should just look like some guy- not like VIctor Von doom or anything, but his face should not be messed up either.

[jade_nova]

Heck, the weak part of Waid's run would have been Kirby as God

I liked that. It was a nice tribute to the man who created these characters.

[jade_nova]

Maybe it was really Franklin behind all of it. The stress of maintaining the sliding timescale for the last thirty-odd years has got to be getting to him.

That shall be Marvel's next big event. Franklin remaking reality so he can be his proper age. He has the urges of someone his chronological age but the body of a child.

[vitruvian]

That shall be Marvel's next big event. Franklin remaking reality so he can be his proper age. He has the urges of someone his chronological age but the body of a child.

"Hey, guess what, Mr. Osborn! You really did die that time Spidey-Man jumped out of the way of your pointy glider thingy! Buh-bye now!"

[Bob Violence]

"Hey, guess what, Mr. Osborn! You really did die that time Spidey-Man jumped out of the way of your pointy glider thingy! Buh-bye now!"
I really could get behind some kind of MU reset, just as long as it's not done in the chickenshirt BND style.

[Pyro]

Ok... If Clyde in this reality hasn't even become the MOD yet, how (or when... and why) was Doom his apprentice in the first place, let alone twice? I think it's clear that Doom's true master was not Clyde, but instead Lord Voldemort. Look at the clues... He learned Dark Magic. He's practically immortal. Doom must have had some horcruxes lying around so that his hatred could keep him alive though his body was torn to pieces.

This is exactly why Millar was rubbish on FF. It was just crazy ideas with very little follow through. The "new" characters Millar introduced had so little substance. MOD was all strength and very little motive. Debbie was nothing more than a generic love interest.

And speaking of Debbie, that whole subplot really annoys me in the context of continuity. Why did she all of a sudden become the love of Ben's life, when last we saw, Ben and Alicia were still together? Millar just wanted to introduce a love interest that was new and his own creation, although it did very little to develop character or plot. How has Ben been changed from this relationship?... Not at all. He bases his decision to call off the wedding on of the experiences of others. And it comes off as nothing more than a writer trying to avoid a fictional dead end. Debbie isn't interesting enough to stay in the FF comics forever, and if she were to be written out after being married than it would have been a hassle. She just seems like a colossal waste of time. Their romance looks like something that'll turn out to be just a brief footnote in the whole of the FF's history.

I'm sad that a run that had mostly very impressive art, was wasted on such awful stories.

[DoomScribe]

I have been thinking on this a bit- the Aprentice (doom) is not under Wyncham's nose all the time- it's convievable that he went back in time and saved himself from the Megladons, healed himself up, gave himself a handjob and returned to the present to fight Ben in the desert all in the blink of an eye.
Time travel accounts for at least some of the relative stupidity.

Nothing excuses Aprentice-Doom having a messed up face- he should just look like some guy- not like VIctor Von doom or anything, but his face should not be messed up either.

Apprentice-Doom states that he had to rearrange his being on an atomic level, so as not to be recognized by Clyde. You'd think he'd be able to fix his face, eh?

But even more disturbing ... Since when has Doom had that kind of power? It was a just a little throw-away line ... ("look how I fooled the MOD, aren't I clever"), but with that kind of power, on the level of the Molecular Man ... why bother with some silly subterfuge? Just blow the fugger out of the water and be done with it.

This is why, what will really happen, is that a year from now (or a couple months following in other titles), Doom will be back to his "normal" level of powers, and scarred face (an easy motivational tool for lazy writers), and megalomaniacal ranting about ruling the world, instead of something befitting his talent, intelligence and energies.

So I'm re-reading Heroes: Reborn the Return because it just came out in trade paperback. Chris Claremont writes an EXCELLENT Doom!

[Iron Maiden]

I got that on order too even though I have the individual issues.

Claremont's Doom was shrewd and resourceful in his efforts to bring order to the chaotic HR planet. I liked the cast of characters he started to build around him like Lancer and Dorma the Atlantean warrior queen. Removed from Earth, without the accompanying distraction of dealing with Reed and the other heroes , he was more focused and rational. Eventually, Marvel had Doom abandon the planet, which would have given him a much more powerful power base. I thought that was unfortunate and I suspect this new Doom development will go away too. I can't see how any writer can follow up on it. It's way too ridiculous.

My suggested solution to the whole mess is that Doom lied about the whole thing, used the remembrancer machine that was once used on Kristoff to give the apprentice his memories and had him masquerade as Doom, bowing to MOD etc. This oaf was the one that was tossed to the megladons, never to be seen or heard from again.

[DoomScribe]

Claremont's Doom was shrewd and resourceful in his efforts to bring order to the chaotic HR planet. I liked the cast of characters he started to build around him like Lancer and Dorma the Atlantean warrior queen. Removed from Earth, without the accompanying distraction of dealing with Reed and the other heroes , he was more focused and rational. Eventually, Marvel had Doom abandon the planet, which would have given him a much more powerful power base. I thought that was unfortunate and I suspect this new Doom development will go away too. I can't see how any writer can follow up on it. It's way too ridiculous.

My suggested solution to the whole mess is that Doom lied about the whole thing, used the remembrancer machine that was once used on Kristoff to give the apprentice his memories and had him masquerade as Doom, bowing to MOD etc. This oaf was the one that was tossed to the megladons, never to be seen or heard from again.

HA! That's it exactly! That solves the whole character misrepresentation of Doom actually bowing (respect my ass) to someone else, and how quickly/easily/decisively he was defeated when any moron could have seen that coming a mile away. Far below Doom's usual prescient abilities.

And yes, Claremont's Doom in the HR world could have been a long term story of great potential (like Doom 2099) if the Marvel masters had seen fit to pursue it. As it was, Doom was discriminated against for being a "villain" and all he was and all he learned and accomplished was forgotten in later versions because they need a fall guy for the so-called heroes.

Doom can rule the world (and has) and will do it better than anyone else. He's proven it time and time again. He just gets tripped up by Marvel editors who gasp and cry, "But he can't do that! He's the bad guy!" Then they make him do something stupid and uncharacteristic like murder Valeria. pissh. Wankers.

[daz]

Just read it. Thought it was terible, some good ideas but needed to be scaled right down and some logic introduced. Hopefully next issue reed wakes up and finds the whole run was a dream.

So doom is now 10 million years old, cannot die and the most powerful character on the planet (at least). Not sure where they go from there.

[CapnCaveman]

Just read it. Thought it was terible, some good ideas but needed to be scaled right down and some logic introduced. Hopefully next issue reed wakes up and finds the whole run was a dream.

So doom is now 10 million years old, cannot die and the most powerful character on the planet (at least). Not sure where they go from there.

Where do they go from there? Simple. They ignore it and write Doom the way he was before. Then come up with a one panel explanation 6 months from now as to why none of that really happened.

[DeadXMan]

Where do they go from there? Simple. They ignore it and write Doom the way he was before. Then come up with a one panel explanation 6 months from now as to why none of that really happened.

I came up with one last month

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr150/DXM616/Untitled-1-1.png

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr150/DXM616/DRKRFF004_int-6.png

where's my no prize:mad:

[ANewHope]

Poor sweet Aunt Petunia !!

[ANewHope]

You know when I first read this conclusion, I enjoyed it. But when I started thinking about what happened to Doom, it ruined itself.

So the millenium Doctor Doom has now replaced the 616 Doom?? Or did Doom from 616 some how manage to survive by using an advanced LMD that could generated dreams?

What i'm hoping, is that millenium Doom will jump back into the multiverse and the real doom will still be an active part of Norman Osborn's Cabal.


And initially, I did enjoy this story. But then I started reading Fantastic Four Dark Reign and thought that was awesome. Loved it. Was cracking up and thought it was extremely well written. Really looking forward to Hitch taking over Fantastic Four.

So I think Millar's conclusion gets a 7 out of 10 and that's being generous. I just hope what actually happened to the real Doom is resolved quickly. If it's ignored entirely, I think that would be worse.

[raskal66]

And initially, I did enjoy this story. But then I started reading Fantastic Four Dark Reign and thought that was awesome. Loved it. Was cracking up and thought it was extremely well written. Really looking forward to Hitch taking over Fantastic Four.

So I think Millar's conclusion gets a 7 out of 10 and that's being generous. I just hope what actually happened to the real Doom is resolved quickly. If it's ignored entirely, I think that would be worse.

I agree. In fact, it seems like Dark Reign: FF, and FF were polar opposites over their respective runs.

When Dark Reign: FF started, it felt a little out in the weeds. Reed travelling through alternate realities while Norman was trying to come into the Baxter Building to arrest them. Before the last couple of issues, it seemed a little aimless, but then you get hit with Reed deciding that his deferential nature might have been a big part of the problem, now you have Hickman's run starting with that idea.

Millar's run went the opposite way. Sure, his characters were not as substantive as they could have been, but those first arcs were just fun reads. The Alternate Earth with the massive CAP robot was a good story. It was fun, it modernized Johnny as the player womanizer and brought back Doom , I laughed at the reality show, the band, and the idea of Thing crushing Wolverin from 500 years in the future's skull. Then it started to fizzle in Scotland. Then it just got flat. For the sake of brevity, I'll simply say that I expect more from a Doom story. A lot more.

Maybe Millar was too busy with his other projects (if the Kick Ass movie gets released with a conclusion before the comic has one sent out it will destroy my getting excited over his work any more. I'll still read it, but I'll wait for it to get a few issues out first.) Even though I really enjoy his writing style, his stretch on FF and Wolverine would have me worried about Ultimate Avengers if I bothered to pay the $3.99 to read it. FF and Wolvie were plagued by lateness (perhaps not all Millar's fault) and significant momentum reduction as the stories moved on. Before Old Man Logan is even technically wrapped up with it's conclusion, we get a new title. I'm going to say Millar and Marvel got on base, but by Fielder's Choice and not a base hit.

[XPac]

FF and Wolvie were plagued by lateness (perhaps not all Millar's fault) and significant momentum reduction as the stories moved on. Before Old Man Logan is even technically wrapped up with it's conclusion, we get a new title. I'm going to say Millar and Marvel got on base, but by Fielder's Choice and not a base hit.

Millars Ultimate Run was plagued with lateness too. So if he end up not pumping out Ultimate Avengers in a timely manner, I don't think anyone will be shocked.

Granted, all that could have been more the fault of the aritsts than the writer.

[Iron Maiden]

Poor sweet Aunt Petunia !!

I have to wonder about that one too. I hate when a writer brings in a character for just a one-panel death scene. Is she really dead, as are probably thousands of Latverians? Some thought it was just something MOD showed Ben something that he could do but I don't know. They were able to produce that illusion to Doom about being married to Sue, which is to say Doom gave himself that illusion. :confused:

[ANewHope]

Yeah. It'd be silly if she wasn't dead. Same thing with the lavterians

[streator]

i just read 567-569 earlier this evening... it definitely felt phoned in compared to some of millar's earlier issues. i don't even know how much millar had to do with 568 & 569; it certainly didn't read like millar. i would have liked to see hitch complete the entire run but i thought immonen was a suitable replacement. nothing jarring. i actually prefer immonen to the half-hitch work we got in 568. anyway, some thoughts:

if i understand correctly, clyde wyncham is from the 1985 universe, right? was he the kid in the first issue? that's all i read and i can't really remember much about it.

the marquis of doom went down fairly easily. i wonder if it was a re-write.

what happened to franklin? i know the marquis of doom told reed to choose between killing him and saving the universe, but i don't think we saw franklin after that at all, did we? i know val was there with the ff fighting all of the other ff's but franklin was nowhere to be found.

i'm fine with the way things were left with debbie, i actually think that she could still be a decent supporting character. who was the guy that lost a girlfriend with spidey, daredevil and namor? i couldn't place him (brown hair, glasses, no costume). i feel like i should know who it was supposed to be, but it's not coming to me.

anyway, this was my last issue of fantastic four, and while it could have been better it was okay for what it was.

[Iron Maiden]

i just read 567-569 earlier this evening... it definitely felt phoned in compared to some of millar's earlier issues. i don't even know how much millar had to do with 568 & 569; it certainly didn't read like millar. i would have liked to see hitch complete the entire run but i thought immonen was a suitable replacement. nothing jarring. i actually prefer immonen to the half-hitch work we got in 568. .

Millar and Hitch both had some personal problems at some point we know. Millar's Crohn's disease kicked up and Hitch had a death in the family. Hitch left the FF and started work on Reborn instead. Probably Marvel gave the title to him and let him leave FF early since there was a bigger push for Reborn than there was for their FF "finale". Then you have Millar going Hollywood with "Kick Ass. Even before the personal issues, Hitch said he didn't have an inker lined up at some point and was having auditions for an inker over on the Millarworld boards last summer.

IMO, I think they both lost interest in the FF around the same time on top of all the other problems. The whole run was just snakebit, in spite of the 9 months of work they said they had done in advance while McDuffie and Pellitier got them some lead time before they came on board.

anyway, some thoughts:
if i understand correctly, clyde wyncham is from the 1985 universe, right? was he the kid in the first issue? that's all i read and i can't really remember much about it.
the marquis of doom went down fairly easily. i wonder if it was a re-write.

The pacing was pretty haphazard. They had a lot of ground to cover for that last issue and it didn't quite work. When Reed comes back from talking with MOD, Ben says he was gone like 5 weeks....and just 3 of the FF were fighting off hundreds if not thousands of their alternate reality counterparts??? When did they sleep?? BTW, Millar said he handed the whole thing off to Ahearne and just gave him some direction on stuff. I think he said the split was like 20 % him, 80% Ahearne.

MOD was the brain damaged friend of Jerry Goodman, the father of Toby. He's the one that first saw the villains all hanging around the deserted Wyncham house. Clyde was the first mutant in that reality and he was able to animate the corpse of his dead father. His mother freaked out over his powers and clubbed him over the head. He was brain damaged from the blow and was institutionalized. Against his wishes, his comic book collection was eventually given away. This enraged him and he used his reality bending powers to bring over the MU villains to carry out his vendetta on the whole town. Toby found the portal that he used at the old house and then lead all the MU heroes back to his universe to save the day. The heroes decided to bring Clyde back to the MU so that they could keep in from causing any further harm. That is the isolated prison that Ben went to when he planned to go kill Clyde. In the future storyline of "Old Man Logan", the villains release Clyde and he later becomes MOD.


what happened to franklin? i know the marquis of doom told reed to choose between killing him and saving the universe, but i don't think we saw franklin after that at all, did we? i know val was there with the ff fighting all of the other ff's but franklin was nowhere to be found..
Maybe he was off playing with his blue ball and he was manipulating reality too. :wink: I think they might have just hid him in the FF panic room.

i'm fine with the way things were left with debbie, i actually think that she could still be a decent supporting character. who was the guy that lost a girlfriend with spidey, daredevil and namor? i couldn't place him (brown hair, glasses, no costume). i feel like i should know who it was supposed to be, but it's not coming to me..

It was supposed to be Bruce Banner. What's weird is all those characters being there at the same time for Ben's wedding.


anyway, this was my last issue of fantastic four, and while it could have been better it was okay for what it was.

I am not going to try to talk you into anything if you are one of those who just tryed it out because of Millar/Hitch. All I can say is in one issue Hickman is already showing a better grasp of the FF.

[streator]

Millar and Hitch both had some personal problems at some point we know. Millar's Crohn's disease kicked up and Hitch had a death in the family. Hitch left the FF and started work on Reborn instead. Probably Marvel gave the title to him and let him leave FF early since there was a bigger push for Reborn than there was for their FF "finale". Then you have Millar going Hollywood with "Kick Ass. Even before the personal issues, Hitch said he didn't have an inker lined up at some point and was having auditions for an inker over on the Millarworld boards last summer.

yeah, i heard about their personal issues and what not. what's done is done, but i can't believe that marvel isn't disappointed in the end result still.

IMO, I think they both lost interest in the FF around the same time on top of all the other problems. The whole run was just snakebit, in spite of the 9 months of work they said they had done in advance while McDuffie and Pellitier got them some lead time before they came on board.

i enjoyed the first two arcs a lot more than the last two, if that says anything.

The pacing was pretty haphazard. They had a lot of ground to cover for that last issue and it didn't quite work. When Reed comes back from talking with MOD, Ben says he was gone like 5 weeks....and just 3 of the FF were fighting off hundreds if not thousands of their alternate reality counterparts??? When did they sleep?? BTW, Millar said he handed the whole thing off to Ahearne and just gave him some direction on stuff. I think he said the split was like 20 % him, 80% Ahearne.

is ahearne the guy that's writing fantastic force as well? i'm not familiar with any of his other work.

MOD was the brain damaged friend of Jerry Goodman, the father of Toby. He's the one that first saw the villains all hanging around the deserted Wyncham house. Clyde was the first mutant in that reality and he was able to animate the corpse of his dead father. His mother freaked out over his powers and clubbed him over the head. He was brain damaged from the blow and was institutionalized. Against his wishes, his comic book collection was eventually given away. This enraged him and he used his reality bending powers to bring over the MU villains to carry out his vendetta on the whole town. Toby found the portal that he used at the old house and then lead all the MU heroes back to his universe to save the day. The heroes decided to bring Clyde back to the MU so that they could keep in from causing any further harm. That is the isolated prison that Ben went to when he planned to go kill Clyde. In the future storyline of "Old Man Logan", the villains release Clyde and he later becomes MOD.

i'm reading old man logan, and for some reason i can't remember seeing or hearing about clyde at all in that story. i know they're all supposed to tie together, though. guess i'll have to look a little closer upon a re-read.

Maybe he was off playing with his blue ball and he was manipulating reality too. :wink: I think they might have just hid him in the FF panic room.

have they shown franklin to have any powers since heroes return or whatever? were his powers somehow negated back then?

It was supposed to be Bruce Banner. What's weird is all those characters being there at the same time for Ben's wedding.

oh, duh. i don't read any hulk books & for some reason i thought banner was dead or imprisoned or something.

I am not going to try to talk you into anything if you are one of those who just tryed it out because of Millar/Hitch. All I can say is in one issue Hickman is already showing a better grasp of the FF.

i collected all of mk 4 and i've gotten some other ff issues in the past, so i didn't just try out the ff because of millar & hitch. i did however plan on only sticking around for their run and i'm sticking to that plan. nothing against the ff, i'm just trying to cut back some.

[Iron Maiden]

is ahearne the guy that's writing fantastic force as well? i'm not familiar with any of his other work

Yes, Joe Ahearne wrote that and I think he is a TV writer for Dr. Who. For some reason the last issue of the mini has gone missing. It's been several months since the 3rd issue came out. I think it may be out in September. Not a big loss though.



i'm reading old man logan, and for some reason i can't remember seeing or hearing about clyde at all in that story. i know they're all supposed to tie together, though. guess i'll have to look a little closer upon a re-read.

I didn't mean to mislead you but that one panel in the FF showing the villains breaking into Clyde's chamber and setting him free is the only way to connect the two so far. You sort of have to assume that the villians are running amok because this is when they've taken over the U.S. as we see in Old Man Logan. The last issue of that has had a long delay too but at least it is supposed to be a bonus sized. But I wouldn't bank on Millar even mentioning Wyncham though. I think it will be mainly about Logan getting payback to the Hulk gang according to the synopsis.


have they shown franklin to have any powers since heroes return or whatever? were his powers somehow negated back then?.

Franklin used up his powers, along with Valeria Von Doom, when they brought back the original Galactus in order to defeat Abraxas, who ironically enough was also gallavanting around the cosmos and destroying multiverses just for kicks like MOD. In Hickman's Dark Reign FF however, Franklin pointed his toy guns at Norman and it shot real bullets. So yes, I think Franklin is going to get powered up again.


oh, duh. i don't read any hulk books & for some reason i thought banner was dead or imprisoned or something.?

Same here. I lost track of whether or not Banner was trapped inside the Hulk for a while or not


i collected all of mk 4 and i've gotten some other ff issues in the past, so i didn't just try out the ff because of millar & hitch. i did however plan on only sticking around for their run and i'm sticking to that plan. nothing against the ff, i'm just trying to cut back some.

I hear ya. I am in the same boat too so I try and pick and choose. But I remain a long time FF fan.

[Jason Abbadon]

Poor sweet Aunt Petunia !!
She's not dead- after all, she's Rulk.
Think about it- she lives in manhattan, could have gotten zapped by Tony Stark's Hulk-de-dowering satelite thingies and would have a grudge against Hulk for all those times he beat up her nephew.

Does that sound stupid? Yes it does.
Not, however, as stupid as 15 million year old Doom with Beyonder powers casually hanging out in Latveria after having his blood turned to acid and being eaten by sharks...or the fact that most of earth would have been severely damaged in the MOD fight but no other heroes (or even Osborn's gang) showed up to help.

Oh, and Doom is still the same old Doom- even after millions of years to grow the hell up.

[Iron Maiden]

She's not dead- after all, she's Rulk.
Think about it- she lives in manhattan, could have gotten zapped by Tony Stark's Hulk-de-dowering satelite thingies and would have a grudge against Hulk for all those times he beat up her nephew.

Does that sound stupid? Yes it does..

Nothing would surprise me at this point. I sometimes wonder if some writers have a thinly disguised contempt for fandom in general.

Not, however, as stupid as 15 million year old Doom with Beyonder powers casually hanging out in Latveria after having his blood turned to acid and being eaten by sharks...or the fact that most of earth would have been severely damaged in the MOD fight but no other heroes (or even Osborn's gang) showed up to help.

Oh, and Doom is still the same old Doom- even after millions of years to grow the hell up.

Oh, but you forgot the aside by MOD where he said, "Oh BTW I knocked out all the other heroes but you four". Just like with the first arc where 49 heroes showed up to fight Giant RoboCap.

Yeah, and I can't believe Doom would be that dense after millions of years.