So did Shulkie really bed Juggy?

[ReturnOfTheComeback]

According to a recent entry on TvTropes.Org, it was recently revealed that she really did , and that previous writer was a liar . Given that the current writer is Peter David after all ( R/S anyone ) , I'm inclined to believe it . However , I'm having difficulty confirming this using Google . So can anyone clear this for me ?

[Gnarl]

Personally, I believe she did, and then lied about it afterwards herself. She would by no means be the first woman to do this, and perfect heroes are boring to me.

[Loki]

According to a recent entry on TvTropes.Org, it was recently revealed that she really did , and that previous writer was a liar . Given that the current writer is Peter David after all ( R/S anyone ) , I'm inclined to believe it . However , I'm having difficulty confirming this using Google . So can anyone clear this for me ?

No, her counterpart from Earth A did. Peter David did a tongue in cheek story about She-Hulk and Juggernaut both then attacking the Marvel offices, angry that the comics had denied their love for one another. However, that's still not to be taken as proof that 616 She-Hulk slept with Juggernaut. She-Hulk's response in the Dan Slott story to discovering her counterpart had slept with Juggernaut made it pretty clear 616 She-Hulk had not slept with Juggernaut.

[Tracks]

she did, I have the comic it was in x-men when juggernaut didn't have his powers, or wasn't at full power

[Grapeweasel]

If I'm Cain, I'm still telling my friends I did....

[Triforce]

Yes, they slept together:

http://jimsmash.blogspot.com/2008/06/she-hulks-sex-life.html

[AllisterH]

Personally, I still don't see what the big deal was...

First, at the time, Cain was honestly trying to change for the better and given She-Hulk's history, I always thought she would respect that.

Secondly, Juggy has hand't much interaction with Jen's personal circle of relationships so there's no "betraying" of faily members there...

[XPac]

Personally, I still don't see what the big deal was...

First, at the time, Cain was honestly trying to change for the better and given She-Hulk's history, I always thought she would respect that.

Secondly, Juggy has hand't much interaction with Jen's personal circle of relationships so there's no "betraying" of faily members there...

It was a lawyer sleeping with her client. THat's kind of a big deal.

[Majinoaw]

No, her counterpart from Earth A did. Peter David did a tongue in cheek story about She-Hulk and Juggernaut both then attacking the Marvel offices, angry that the comics had denied their love for one another. However, that's still not to be taken as proof that 616 She-Hulk slept with Juggernaut. She-Hulk's response in the Dan Slott story to discovering her counterpart had slept with Juggernaut made it pretty clear 616 She-Hulk had not slept with Juggernaut.

Yeah. At first it looked like 616 She Hulk had done the deed, but it was retconned a few years later by Slott. -saying that her counterpart did.

[archer9234]

It could go both ways. Jen was emotionally depressed, she slept with other people which caused a security breach at the Avengers mansion etc. And her 616 version does anything. I don't see them ever fully confirming it.

[Dermie]

Yes, a She-Hulk slept with Juggernaut--but it wasn't the She-Hulk from the regular 616 universe--it was an alternate reality duplicate. This was shown in SHE-HULK #21.

[jarvSthe1]

Nope an alternate reality She-Hulk did. I thought it was kind of cool the way PAD did that whole alternate Shulkie thing.

[The Cool Thatguy]

It was a lawyer sleeping with her client. THat's kind of a big deal.

The odd part is that that got no emphasize while Juggernaut's villainous past was played up. That because Juggernaut went a few rounds with Hulk, Jen would never consider sleeping with him.

That was Slott's stance, IIRC and seemed pretty odd when you consider that Jen was willing to bang Wolverine. The same Wolverine who's mauled her cousin how many times now?

[XPac]

The tough thing about that book is that because it's a humor book, you sometimes wonder exactly how seriously you're suppossed to take some of the things you see in it.

In that one story, it wasn't just the Juggy/Jen hook up that was potentialy retconned. There were other duplicates that did other things... were those serious retcons, or just attempts at poking fun at other things that were questionable. The answer is probably both... but it's hard to tell sometimes.

[XPac]

The odd part is that that got no emphasize while Juggernaut's villainous past was played up. That because Juggernaut went a few rounds with Hulk, Jen would never consider sleeping with him.

That was Slott's stance, IIRC and seemed pretty odd when you consider that Jen was willing to bang Wolverine. The same Wolverine who's mauled her cousin how many times now?

Has Juggernaut ever tried to kill the Hulk? I suppose that could be a difference maker at least from Jens perspective, if that's the case.

MOST superheroes have gone a few rounds against her cousin. I would assume she can't hold that against too many people.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Has Juggernaut ever tried to kill the Hulk? I suppose that could be a difference maker at least from Jens perspective, if that's the case.

MOST superheroes have gone a few rounds against her cousin. I would assume she can't hold that against too many people.

Juggs fought Hulk only 3 times prior to the recon, IIRC. None of the encounters seemed to run that deep, IMO.

[AllisterH]

Has Juggernaut ever tried to kill the Hulk? I suppose that could be a difference maker at least from Jens perspective, if that's the case.

MOST superheroes have gone a few rounds against her cousin. I would assume she can't hold that against too many people.

That's kind of the funny thing about the Hulk and Juggernaut. You would figure that there would be more battles with these two but at the time of the incident, Cain had only fought Hulk three times.

First time back in the early 60s. Dumb Hulk era and hulk and juggy are escaping together when Juggy is about to run over this couple. Hulk jumps in to protect them and they trade a few blows, Hulk gets off Cain's helmet and throws him into a mountain. Hulk turns his back and Juggy (who of course isn't hurt) is about to attack Hulk from behind and gets mindblasted by a passing Xavier (talk about random)

Second time is during PAD's run where Juggy in plainclothes surprises Professor-Hulk and since Hulk didn't realize it was a heavy hitter like Juggy, Juggy takes it to him but just as Hulk is about to be finished off, Juggy's employer (Leader or was it the REd Skull) stop him and we find out it was simply a job for Cain.

Third time, Hulk as Apocalypse's War actually picks a fight with Cain (who was minding his own business) and damn near kills him thanks to being boosted with Celestial tech.

Really, I can't see why Jen would have any animosity to Cain based on his fights with Hulk since Cain doesn't purposely go out of his way or regularly fights the hulk.

[Gnarl]

It was a lawyer sleeping with her client. THat's kind of a big deal.

She-Hulk does not have a degree in Canadian law, and can't work as a lawyer in Canada, where the story took place. She may have acted as a legal consultant.

[The Cool Thatguy]

She-Hulk does not have a degree in Canadian law, and can't work as a lawyer in Canada, where the story took place. She may have acted as a legal consultant.

True, but Canada couldn't try Juggernaut for his crimes since virtually none of them took place in Canada, but they did and even entered a ruling!

Chuck Austen, everyone!

[Goshin]

well, from what i heard juggs woke up one morning two weeks later with itching, burning glow in the dark green spots on his dick that spread when he scratched them or got pissed

[AllisterH]

True, but Canada couldn't try Juggernaut for his crimes since virtually none of them took place in Canada, but they did and even entered a ruling!

Chuck Austen, everyone!

While I know it's easy to pick on Austen, I don't think this was true here...

Actually, IIRC, wasn't the fact that he HAD committed crimes in Canada (that whole brouhaha with Alpha Flight and the fishboy Sammy) what actually caused him to be tried?

[The Cool Thatguy]

While I know it's easy to pick on Austen, I don't think this was true here...

Actually, IIRC, wasn't the fact that he HAD committed crimes in Canada (that whole brouhaha with Alpha Flight and the fishboy Sammy) what actually caused him to be tried?

I'm not sure, actually. That might be it, but I remember them running through a long his crimes.

You might be right, I'm just not willing to risk the brain damage to check ;)

[Joe Acro]

That was Slott's stance, IIRC and seemed pretty odd when you consider that Jen was willing to bang Wolverine. The same Wolverine who's mauled her cousin how many times now?
She slept with Wolverine?

[Peter F.]

She slept with Wolverine?

She wanted to.

But then Wolverine said he didn't want Cain's sloppy seconds.

Then Jen vehemently yelled "I did not sleep with the Juggernaut!"

[Cain Marko]

Well, the Juggernaut is a murderer, terrorist, strongarm robber, kidnapper, bully, arsonist, and pretty much commits major felonies as a pastime. He's also tried to kill the Hulk at least once. He tried to snap Hulk's neck in their first fight, and would have beaten Hulk to death in their second if Red Skull hadn't told Cain to stop because he wanted Hulk alive. That was why Slott said he retconned it. And on top of being a murderer and whatnot Cain was her client. Jen having only just met Cain a few hours earlier didn't help the situation come off any better, either.

[Cain Marko]

Though I think in Austen's "continuity" She-Hulk and Juggernaut were supposed to have fought a few times before.

[Goshin]

Though I think in Austen's "continuity" She-Hulk and Juggernaut were supposed to have fought a few times before.

who gives a shit about anything written by chuck "anime x-men" austen?

[Cain Marko]

who gives a shit about anything written by chuck "anime x-men" austen?

Beats the hell outta me.

[bloodyarts]

Wait, what exactly about Juggernaut was retconned? In what issue(s) did it take place?

Am I to believe his first bout in MU-616 is against WWHulk?

[Cain Marko]

Wait, what exactly about Juggernaut was retconned? In what issue(s) did it take place?

Am I to believe his first bout in MU-616 is against WWHulk?

No. Only stuff written by Chuck Austen was retconned. The story where "Juggernaut" slept with She-Hulk was retconned, as well as various other Austen concoctions such as the Juggernaut never having killed anyone before. Only things during Cain's time as an X-man were retconned.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Well, the Juggernaut is a murderer, terrorist, strongarm robber, kidnapper, bully, arsonist, and pretty much commits major felonies as a pastime. He's also tried to kill the Hulk at least once. He tried to snap Hulk's neck in their first fight, and would have beaten Hulk to death in their second if Red Skull hadn't told Cain to stop because he wanted Hulk alive. That was why Slott said he retconned it. And on top of being a murderer and whatnot Cain was her client. Jen having only just met Cain a few hours earlier didn't help the situation come off any better, either.

True, but alot of that describes Wolverine, plus he's had some nasty fights with Hulk, but to and including stabbing Hulk in the heart. Hell, as far as She-Hulk knew, Wolverine even stabbed Hulk in the eyes!

Hence my confusion why She-Hulk would never have sex with Juggernaut because of Cain's past battles with Hulk, yet would try to jump Logan's bones.

[archer9234]

She was emotionally depressed. Wyatt stopped loving her. And she destroyed her friendships with the Avengers when she abused her privilages. That's the reason why she also used Hercules.

[Cain Marko]

True, but alot of that describes Wolverine, plus he's had some nasty fights with Hulk.


A big difference between Wolverine(unless this has changed the past few years) and the Juggernaut though is that Wolverine doesn't slaughter innocent people and raze heavily populated areas for kicks and giggles. Wolverine is also a hero at the end of the day. Whereas the Juggernaut, to put it mildly, isn't.

[carabas]

Whereas the Juggernaut, to put it mildly, isn't.He was reformed at the time. An X-Man even.

Also, it was written by Chuck Bloody Austen.

[Cain Marko]

What's funny is that at the time, knowing Austen, as soon as I saw She-Hulk in the solicit I knew something crazy was going to happen. With the way he over-sexed his characters, there was no way he was going to let She-Hulk of all people go by unscathed. I didn't think he'd go that far, but I figured he'd do something questionable with her.

[The Cool Thatguy]

A big difference between Wolverine(unless this has changed the past few years) and the Juggernaut though is that Wolverine doesn't slaughter innocent people and raze heavily populated areas for kicks and giggles. Wolverine is also a hero at the end of the day. Whereas the Juggernaut, to put it mildly, isn't.

Now you've also described the Hulk ;)

I'm not defending the relationship, mind, I just think that Slott's rational is odd in comparison to what he's written.

[Optimus]

Now you've also described the Hulk ;)



Well She Hulk wouldn't sleep with him either.

[ResIpsaLoquitur]

Well She Hulk wouldn't sleep with him either.

What, you never read that Paul Jenkins Hulk Annual?

[Cain Marko]

Well She Hulk wouldn't sleep with him either.

And not for Hulk's lack of trying. Oddly enough...

[esc0]

A big difference between Wolverine(unless this has changed the past few years) and the Juggernaut though is that Wolverine doesn't slaughter innocent people and raze heavily populated areas for kicks and giggles. Wolverine is also a hero at the end of the day. Whereas the Juggernaut, to put it mildly, isn't.

lol wolverine is a mass murderer :rolleyes:

[StoneGold]

The odd part is that that got no emphasize while Juggernaut's villainous past was played up. That because Juggernaut went a few rounds with Hulk, Jen would never consider sleeping with him.


Oh please, who hasn't gone a few rounds with Hulk? Hell, Captain America's fought him a couple times. She-Hulk has fought Bruce, and I'm pretty sure she's willing to go to town on herself if the need arises.

[Salvester]

Juggernaut isn't really a sociopathic villian, and he normally doesn't (at least as the character is written now) go around attacking random civilians and raising buildings for the hell of it. Sure he has done it a few times, but it is normally because he is fighting someone like the Hulk or the Xmen, and they are as guility as he is. He doesn't go gunning for people (unless they are heros, and then they are at least kinda fair game).

Juggy is actually about as straight laced as a villian can be. Nothing he does is really just to be evil(except against the Xmen, but he doesn't try to kill them, just to beat them down mostly) it is just done because it is business. Now I'm not saying that is right, but that is just how it is.

And I actually think that She-Hulk/Juggy relationship is a pretty neat relationship, reconned or not.

[hotrodimus]

there has to be a sex video of them somewhere... but i would think juggy would be the one doing all the screaming with all his one liners..

im the juggernaut bitch!
no one stops the juggernaut

[Cain Marko]

Juggernaut isn't really a sociopathic villian, and he normally doesn't (at least as the character is written now) go around attacking random civilians and raising buildings for the hell of it. Sure he has done it a few times, but it is normally because he is fighting someone like the Hulk or the Xmen, and they are as guility as he is. He doesn't go gunning for people (unless they are heros, and then they are at least kinda fair game).

Most times I can think of the fight with the heroes starts because he's walking around attacking random civilians. His fight with Hulk started because he was attacking an innocent family. His last fight with Thor was because he was on a rampage slaughtering large numbers of people. His fight with Spider-Man because he was stomping through Manhatten flipping over buses and such before uncaringly tossing Madame Web's body away for dead, etc. The Juggernaut has almost no regard for human life to speak of.



Juggy is actually about as straight laced as a villian can be. Nothing he does is really just to be evil(except against the Xmen, but he doesn't try to kill them, just to beat them down mostly) it is just done because it is business.

Well, by his own admission the Juggernaut enjoys destruction purely for destruction's sake. And compared to the other stuff he's done I'd say fighting the X-Men ranks pretty low on the list as far as evil goes.

[DeadXMan]

Dan Slott retconed it that 616 jen did not sleep with Juggy.

[AllisterH]

Cain Marko, why are you a fan of Juggernaut?

It's weird to find a fan that enoys painting their favourite character in the worst possible light all the time.

It would be like being a fan of the post Identity Crisis Dr. Light.

[carabas]

Dan Slott retconed it that 616 jen did not sleep with Juggy.Didn't Peter David reretcon it back in?

[Cain Marko]

Cain Marko, why are you a fan of Juggernaut?

It's weird to find a fan that enoys painting their favourite character in the worst possible light all the time.

It would be like being a fan of the post Identity Crisis Dr. Light.


I'm not sure what being a fan has to do with it. Other than maybe being more aware of all the evil **** he's done than the average Chuck Austen reader. The Juggernaut happens to be a living engine of destruction. He has very little conscience and does really really bad things. Often. That's his character. I wouldn't try to pretend otherwise just because I'm a fan. What's "a bad light" for a person in real life isn't necessarily a bad light for a fictional character. If the Juggernaut were a real person killing real people and slamming real buses into real shopping centers I'd find him deplorable. But as a comic book villain, it makes him prettty awesome.

[SquidSquod]

Yes.

I don't what so bad about Juggy. Is he not handsome enough to a fan-writer, he's a comic character for godsake.

[The Avenging One]

Didn't Peter David reretcon it back in?

I don't think so. He did a back-up where She-Hulk and Juggy ran into the marvel offices bitching about Slott's retcon and stuff but I don't think it was meant to be serious

At the end of the back-up right after Jen and Marko have left the Marvel offices gets a call from Marko pissed about how he was portrayed in a parody four-pager they just published.

[archer9234]

Yeah. That was a whole joke to just stab at it.

[carabas]

I don't think so. He did a back-up where She-Hulk and Juggy ran into the marvel offices bitching about Slott's retcon and stuff but I don't think it was meant to be serious.On the othe rhand, I have problems taking Slott's half-assed retcon featuring doubleganger tourists from a paralel world any mor serious than that.

[Dermie]

On the othe rhand, I have problems taking Slott's half-assed retcon featuring doubleganger tourists from a paralel world any mor serious than that.

Dan used established continuity though (the Earth-A universe was established in an old FF story, as I recall), and he actually addressed a number of continuity errors with it, not just the She-Hulk/Juggernaut thing.

Sure, on the surface it sounds a bit goofy...but at least it finds an in-story way to address and fix continuity errors.

[MythicBrawn]

They should have kept it in. It would have been totally in character for her. Plus, she wouldn't have to hold back with Juggy. He could give as well as receive. I figure any bed they used would be destroyed once they finished.

[Dafyr]

The retcon was not needed in my opinion. I think at the time The Writers were tying She-Hulks sex antics to her unraveling state of mind. I believe to the point where she (Jen) was saying She-Hulk actions was not her own. I think that would have lead to some pretty interesting stuff. Almost like a decent in to Bruce's own mind.

[Dafyr]

Doubled down the interweb did.

[kane]

The real question is: who did she-hulk not sleep with.

[archer9234]

The retcon was not needed in my opinion. I think at the time The Writers were tying She-Hulks sex antics to her unraveling state of mind. I believe to the point where she (Jen) was saying She-Hulk actions was not her own. I think that would have lead to some pretty interesting stuff. Almost like a decent in to Bruce's own mind.
Yes that was the point of Slott's story but, It got dropped when David took over. Slott probably wanted to go in the direction of Jen hating herself. It did cause some mental blocking. The fake romance Starfox did with JJJ JR.

[BobfromHR]

Cain Marko, why are you a fan of Juggernaut?

It's weird to find a fan that enoys painting their favourite character in the worst possible light all the time.

It would be like being a fan of the post Identity Crisis Dr. Light.

As far as I know The Juggernaut has never raped anyone.

Just saying......

OMG he isn't such a bad guy now that I think about it. He has never forced himself on a woman. That explains it all. Austin was right. He is just misunderstood!

[Gnarl]

The retcon was not needed in my opinion. I think at the time The Writers were tying She-Hulks sex antics to her unraveling state of mind. I believe to the point where she (Jen) was saying She-Hulk actions was not her own. I think that would have lead to some pretty interesting stuff. Almost like a decent in to Bruce's own mind.

I agree. It made She-Hulk a bit more real and relatable to. I did notice that for a while it looked like they were coing to retcon the Starfox one-night stand to a rape, but they backed off.

It annoyed me that they seemed to be retconning history to the point where any non-martial sex had to be a rape.

[archer9234]

If they recont it to Starfox rape, it wouldn't make sense. You can't injure her is for one. Second, she would of killed him. She was about to do it, before he told her the truth. Third, Starfox isn't this dumb to mess with someone like her (though Stark was). He was just stupid trying to make a fake romance between Jen and Jr.

[Gnarl]

If they recont it to Starfox rape, it wouldn't make sense. You can't injure her is for one. Second, she would of killed him. She was about to do it, before he told her the truth. Third, Starfox isn't this dumb to mess with someone like her (though Stark was). He was just stupid trying to make a fake romance between Jen and Jr.

Not a physical kind of rape. For a while, they were setting up the retcon that Jens old one-night stand with Starfox as the result of Starfox using his mental powers on her.
Basically mind-controled her into bed. They backed off from it though.

[archer9234]

She still kill him. I took that in account. Any form of unwillful act from Starfox would of made him dead. He got away with Jr. because he enhanced her desire to have a family.

[AllisterH]

*Shrug*

I always thought the reason She Hulk acted like she did was because she *LIKES* spreading her legs (to put it bluntly).

That's it.

No "bad childhood", no "mind control", no "gamma blood can't control myself", no "daddy issues".

She has sex because she genuinely enjoys having sex for just the sex....

[archer9234]

No. That violates the character completely. Jennifer is still in control of her actions. She wanted to sleep with these people because she was depressed. She just denied it by using She-Hulk as a scapegoat. Which got her screwed when testifying in court for leader. But then it kind of helped in the end. She fell in love with Pug. Which would of been developed if Slott had stayed on.

[FeminineMystique]

*Shrug*

I always thought the reason She Hulk acted like she did was because she *LIKES* spreading her legs (to put it bluntly).

That's it.

No "bad childhood", no "mind control", no "gamma blood can't control myself", no "daddy issues".

She has sex because she genuinely enjoys having sex for just the sex....

Exactly, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's pleasurable and it's fun. Glad the retcons mentioned about her "Unravelling state of mind" have been ignored because they were utter crap at the time and still are now

[archer9234]

You would turn her into a slut character. Which could jsut make everyone hate her.

[Monty_Cristo]

You would turn her into a slut character. Which could jsut make everyone hate her.

not me. i'm pro-slut.

[Gnarl]

Agreed.

Frankly, excluding the joke issues, I always found her the most sexually normal female superhero.

She had one long-term relationship during which she was monogamous. After that ended, shes had a few brief encounters. That is far more like the normal women I know than other marvel heroines!

To me, She-Hulk always came across as a normal woman, but without fear. She is not afraid of walking down a dark alley, not afraid of violence, not afraid of attention, and not afraid of society condemning her for anything.

Thats changed lately.

And the Starfox thing...his powers are supposedly subtle. The thing was he was supposed to have used his mental pleasure powers to seduce Jen, and she was only supposed to realize it long afterwards, when she met other women he had done that to.

[archer9234]

The people that actually liked her from beginning to present are Zapper, a close friend of Jennifer, but he fell in love with She-Hulk, to the point of obsession. To give credit, he did bring her back to life :P. A second guy in Savage when she was trying to stop swamp land to be taken over by construction. Third and most important Wyatt Wingfoot. It was revealed that he only loved her because of the required duty of the Indian tribe. Later their love vanished. Forth: JJJ Jr., again being used by some foreign means to have a fake relationship. 5th and final, Pug. At first, she just slept with him but then he got feelings for her after the 3 months of being off planet. Jen always wanted to sleep with Hercules, at least once. Which she finally did. It was a weird dream sequence in Sensational.

[FeminineMystique]

You would turn her into a slut character. Which could jsut make everyone hate her.

It would make prudes with hang ups about sex hate her maybe. But I think she can do without those readers:biggrin: The term "Slut" is just a word people use to describe women who have more fun than they do:wink:

[archer9234]

Losing readers for female leads is the worst thing to do. They barley survive as it is.

[FeminineMystique]

Losing readers for female leads is the worst thing to do. They barley survive as it is.

Given she doesn't have a book anymore anyway, your point is kind of moot:biggrin: But I don't think acknowledging the fact Jennifer Walters enjoys sex would make the comic lose readers.

[archer9234]

She enjoyed sex. Why would anyone deny she didn't like sex. Who doesn't like sex? She and Wyatt where in love. It's the execution of the story that could of screwed her. But we're talking about Dan Slott, who really can't F up.

She was canceled because Marvel wanted to cut costs. Not because she had low sales. Her sales numbers stayed in the 22,000 range and even got to 38,000 with issue 32 (secret invasion arc). True, that her numbers dropped compared to Slott's run. His issues where around 30,000 range and her 8th issue in season 2, with the Civil War arc, got to 58,000. Her worst issue was 37 (second to last) which sold a horrible 13,000, that was the issue released right after they announced she was canceled. Marvel did the exact same thing to Spider-Girl.

[mikekerr3]

You would turn her into a slut character. Which could jsut make everyone hate her.

People hate all characters that have a lot of sex for fun? Someone please tell the writer of Iron man that they have been doing it all wrong for almost 50 years:rolleyes: James Bond movies must be a charity project since nobody will ever go see a movie whit a character like that:biggrin:

Having sex for fun is pretty normal thing for single (and married, with yuor partner) people in our society, how does that make you a slut? Your post makes me feel younger though I'm 54 and now we have a refugee from the 1940's on the board:biggrin:

[archer9234]

When did I say people hate all characters that have sex? I jsut said if it was handled the wrong way it could backfire. That's it.

[Cain Marko]

OMG he isn't such a bad guy now that I think about it. He has never forced himself on a woman. That explains it all. Austin was right. He is just misunderstood!

*groan* It's still hard to believe that Austen actually wrote Cain Marko as saying he only did what he thought was right and that Cain didn't understand why people viewed him as a villain. It's surreal when She-Hulk can be portrayed as running around in only her bra and panties shouting legal advice to her admittedly guilty client that she just slept with, and she still only be the second most out-of-character person in the story. Definitely can't say I'm sorry to see much of his stuff safely retconned away.

[archer9234]

Well it was Austin's fault, after all. He did whatever he wanted with them. He didn't think about "Am I doing the characters correctly or not?" That's why Slott did all the "fixing".

[Comixscribe]

People hate all characters that have a lot of sex for fun? Someone please tell the writer of Iron man that they have been doing it all wrong for almost 50 years:rolleyes: James Bond movies must be a charity project since nobody will ever go see a movie whit a character like that:biggrin:

Notice those are all men you named. Men who have a lot of sex for fun are looked up to. Admired. That's manly. Women who have a lot of sex for fun are condemned. Hence why the word "slut" came up when it wouldn't have if Stark or Bond was the subject of this discussion. Double standard don'tcha know. :wink:

[archer9234]

Actually, I call Stark a whore too. I always say that when he does his "quick fix". I'm always was like just stick with pepper.

[Sighphi]

No Earth-A She-Hulk did.

[archer9234]

It's never going to be fully confirmed. Slott and David are just like that :P.

[DeadXMan]

it pertty much confrimed when 616 She hulk ask Earth A Jen if she sleep with Cain. and Earth A Jen snorted and said "yeah."

[mikekerr3]

Notice those are all men you named. Men who have a lot of sex for fun are looked up to. Admired. That's manly. Women who have a lot of sex for fun are condemned. Hence why the word "slut" came up when it wouldn't have if Stark or Bond was the subject of this discussion. Double standard don'tcha know. :wink:

I don't think that there are all that many comic readers stupid enough to use that double standard anymore. Except of the frustrated pubescents who call all the women sluts, out of sexual frustration, if they are sexy at all and maybe a few of us antiques , but even most of us old guys know better.

[archer9234]

But then David loves pulling stuff to change things.

[Taskmaster]

Can't believe this argument is still going on, the same goes for the argument of Cain as a murderous one-dimensional psychopath instead of a three dimensional character. Cain Marko's statements especially had me laughing hysterically at how he claims to be a fan of the character but discounts the fact that in the majority of stories with the character he, like my namesake the Taskmaster, is just in it for himself. They don't kill for fun, they don't rape and maim. And it's been well established when Juggernaut is at full power he's basically a pawn of Cytorak, not in control of himself anyways and whenever he's free of that control he winds up been a relatively normal guy, not necessarily a hero or a villain, sort of a blue collar character (see pretty much every alternate reality and future in the marvel catalog that features him as well as his X-Men run, his fights with the Exemplars etc.....) It just must burn you up Cain that your so called favorite character has more appearances as a hero than as the psychopath you seem to want to see him portrayed as. And even if he is portrayed as the character you seem to think he should be, it's been well established that he's being forced by his "Master" so basically he's just a victim to be pitied

As for the She-Hulk bedding incident I find it really telling that it's ok that characters like Wolverine, Captain America and Spider-Man have bedded villains, but if a female does it, then it must be retconned because it ruins the character. It's really telling at how sad most of the die hard "She-Hulk didn't do it" perspective on genders must be. All right gotta be getting back to work

[archer9234]

It started because they did the whole A universe, 616 universe junk. If they just flat out said "yes she had sex with him" (no if, ands, or buts), that would of been the end with it. I never even cared to begin with, till David did that joke piece. I was like "Oh, come on. Make up your minds. Leave it in the past.".

[BobfromHR]

Can't believe this argument is still going on, the same goes for the argument of Cain as a murderous one-dimensional psychopath instead of a three dimensional character.

Cain is a three-dimensional murdering sociopath.

Cain Marko's statements especially had me laughing hysterically at how he claims to be a fan of the character but discounts the fact that in the majority of stories with the character he, like my namesake the Taskmaster, is just in it for himself.

Yes and?

They don't kill for fun, they don't rape and maim.

The Juggernaut kills for fun or just because someone was in his way.

And it's been well established when Juggernaut is at full power he's basically a pawn of Cytorak, not in control of himself

Where and when was this established?

anyways and whenever he's free of that control he winds up been a relatively normal guy, not necessarily a hero or a villain, sort of a blue collar character

Funny how you take any instance of him not actively killing/destroying as proof that he isn't such a bad guy. Yet all the examples of bad behavior get swept under the rug as somehow not his fault.

(see pretty much every alternate reality and future in the marvel catalog that features him as well as his X-Men run, his fights with the Exemplars etc.....)

His X-Men Run? The Imposternaut? How do you think he got that nickname?

As for the exemplars...what was heroic about that?

It just must burn you up Cain that your so called favorite character has more appearances as a hero than as the psychopath you seem to want to see him portrayed as.

Again. Just because you have an appearance where he isn't actively killing someone you cannot label it as heroic.

And even if he is portrayed as the character you seem to think he should be, it's been well established that he's being forced by his "Master" so basically he's just a victim to be pitied

Except that he has killed multiple times for the right to hold the title of "The Juggernaut". He enjoys being an unstoppable killing machine. He considers the power a blessing. He chose to be The Juggernaut.

Even Professor X now completely understands this. He knows Cain is beyond redemption.

[Cain Marko]

...same goes for the argument of Cain as a murderous one-dimensional psychopath instead of a three dimensional character.

An argument no one is having. "One dimensional" is something you came up with on your own. As is most of your post it seems.


And it's been well established when Juggernaut is at full power he's basically a pawn of Cytorak, not in control of himself anyways and whenever he's free of that control he winds up been a relatively normal guy, not necessarily a hero or a villain, sort of a blue collar character

I'd ask you to show where this was ever established, but, since I already know this isn't true I'll just show what's been established about Cain Marko and the Juggernaut power (http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/qq303/Cain_Marko/persona2.jpg) myself. That Cain was a malicious person even before the power and that he's always been him in control since obtaining the power. Nothing there about "when Juggernaut is at full power he's basically a pawn of Cytorak, not in control of himself anyways". Wierd...



It just must burn you up Cain that your so called favorite character has more appearances as a hero than as the psychopath you seem to want to see him portrayed as.


For perspective, you once said that said if Villain X is willing to fight against a group of other villains because they're trying to kill him, that then makes Villain X a hero. And as I said to you before, yes. By that standard the Juggernaut, as well as every other villain on the planet, is a hero. And no, such logic doesn't burn me up at all. I just find it strange.



And even if he is portrayed as the character you seem to think he should be, it's been well established that he's being forced by his "Master" so basically he's just a victim to be pitied

As pointed out earlier, it hasn't. And he himself disagrees with your suggestion of him being an innocent soul forced to do these bad things against his will. Note the curious use of the words "I decided" and "blessing" to describe how much he enjoys being the Juggernaut.

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/qq303/Cain_Marko/choice2b.jpg
http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/qq303/Cain_Marko/Juggernautagain1.jpg

[carabas]

As pointed out earlier, it hasn't. And he himself disagrees with your suggestion of him being an innocent soul forced to do these bad things against his will. Note the curious use of the words "I decided" and "blessing" to describe how much he enjoys being the Juggernaut.Like most X-related characters (and pretty much all main Marvel and DC characters, really), when you look across the decades, Juggernaut's characterisation has been all overthe map.

At the time he was with She-Hulk, he was very much reformed, free of Cytorrak, and a member of the X-Men. And then later editorial changed its mind, as it does so often.

[Cain Marko]

Like most X-related characters (and pretty much all main Marvel and DC characters, really), when you look across the decades, Juggernaut's characterisation has been all overthe map.

At the time he was with She-Hulk, he was very much reformed, free of Cytorrak, and a member of the X-Men. And then later editorial changed its mind, as it does so often.

Yes, but he's never been characterized as an innocent victim working against his will as is being claimed. Even Austen didn't depict that. He just retconned Juggernaut's criminal history to where it wouldn't be as bad.

[Quasar's Bands]

not me. i'm pro-slut.

Me too - as in , pro-woman enjoying herself and her body and doing with it what she wants. Folks that have a problem with a woman enjoying her body often have no problem with men doing the same thing - and they do in the marvel universe, over and over again. Jennifer is a strong woman, inside and out, and she enjoyed a night with Marko. Nothing is wrong with that -- I'm more disturbed by an attorney sleeping with her client - which is a violation of the Ethics Rules of all 50 State Bars. She could be disbarred for such behavior. It isn't professional and it isn't acceptable.

If someone has a problem with Jennifer (as a person and/or woman) sleeping around, then that person has deep insecurity problems and probably doesn't know confident, sexually open women in control of their own bodies. The problem is with the reader, not the character.

On the other hand, if the reader recognizes that Jennifer chose a profession that forbids sleeping with a client in this manner, then unfortunately maybe it does reflect something poor about her client - a possible huge conflict of interest and reflection of her judgment. I can only hope that when they slept together, their attorney-client relationship had been concluded. (I forget).

[Quasar's Bands]

not me. i'm pro-slut.

Me too - as in , pro-woman enjoying herself and her body and doing with it what she wants. Folks that have a problem with a woman enjoying her body often have no problem with men doing the same thing - and they do in the marvel universe, over and over again. Jennifer is a strong woman, inside and out, and she enjoyed a night with Marko. Nothing is wrong with that -- I'm more disturbed by an attorney sleeping with her client - which is a violation of the Ethics Rules of all 50 State Bars. She could be disbarred for such behavior. It isn't professional and it isn't acceptable.

If someone has a problem with Jennifer (as a person and/or woman) sleeping around, then that person has deep insecurity problems and probably doesn't know confident, sexually open women in control of their own bodies. The problem is with the reader, not the character.

On the other hand, if the reader recognizes that Jennifer chose a profession that forbids sleeping with a client in this manner, then unfortunately maybe it does reflect something poor about her ethics- a possible huge conflict of interest and reflection of her judgment. I can only hope that when they slept together, their attorney-client relationship had been concluded. (I forget).

[mikekerr3]

Can't believe this argument is still going on, the same goes for the argument of Cain as a murderous one-dimensional psychopath instead of a three dimensional character. Cain Marko's statements especially had me laughing hysterically at how he claims to be a fan of the character but discounts the fact that in the majority of stories with the character he, like my namesake the Taskmaster, is just in it for himself. They don't kill for fun, they don't rape and maim. And it's been well established when Juggernaut is at full power he's basically a pawn of Cytorak, not in control of himself anyways and whenever he's free of that control he winds up been a relatively normal guy, not necessarily a hero or a villain, sort of a blue collar character (see pretty much every alternate reality and future in the marvel catalog that features him as well as his X-Men run, his fights with the Exemplars etc.....) It just must burn you up Cain that your so called favorite character has more appearances as a hero than as the psychopath you seem to want to see him portrayed as. And even if he is portrayed as the character you seem to think he should be, it's been well established that he's being forced by his "Master" so basically he's just a victim to be pitied

As for the She-Hulk bedding incident I find it really telling that it's ok that characters like Wolverine, Captain America and Spider-Man have bedded villains, but if a female does it, then it must be retconned because it ruins the character. It's really telling at how sad most of the die hard "She-Hulk didn't do it" perspective on genders must be. All right gotta be getting back to work

Stark just bedded an mass murder and the girlfriend before that was also a mass murder and terrorist who is responsible for the deaths of 50+ federal agents so I agree that there is a double standard there.

[tony]

As for the She-Hulk bedding incident I find it really telling that it's ok that characters like Wolverine, Captain America and Spider-Man have bedded villains, but if a female does it, then it must be retconned because it ruins the character. It's really telling at how sad most of the die hard "She-Hulk didn't do it" perspective on genders must be. All right gotta be getting back to work


It was a pointless retcon, most of them are.

I was happy when Peter David knocked some sense into it and put it back right.

[AllisterH]

Nothing is wrong with that -- I'm more disturbed by an attorney sleeping with her client - which is a violation of the Ethics Rules of all 50 State Bars. She could be disbarred for such behavior. It isn't professional and it isn't acceptable.


On the other hand, if the reader recognizes that Jennifer chose a profession that forbids sleeping with a client in this manner, then unfortunately maybe it does reflect something poor about her ethics- a possible huge conflict of interest and reflection of her judgment. I can only hope that when they slept together, their attorney-client relationship had been concluded. (I forget).

One problem though....I don't think Cain was her client per se. Remember, she was simply advising Cain et al before a Canadian court. (She wouldn't be recognized as a professional lawyer in a Canadian court)..

re: Mikekerr

I'm actually in shock that I'm in agreement with you...I mean, how many criminals have Wolverine, Hawkeye and Stark bedded?

[archer9234]

Me too - as in , pro-woman enjoying herself and her body and doing with it what she wants. Folks that have a problem with a woman enjoying her body often have no problem with men doing the same thing - and they do in the marvel universe, over and over again. Jennifer is a strong woman, inside and out, and she enjoyed a night with Marko. Nothing is wrong with that -- I'm more disturbed by an attorney sleeping with her client - which is a violation of the Ethics Rules of all 50 State Bars. She could be disbarred for such behavior. It isn't professional and it isn't acceptable.

If someone has a problem with Jennifer (as a person and/or woman) sleeping around, then that person has deep insecurity problems and probably doesn't know confident, sexually open women in control of their own bodies. The problem is with the reader, not the character.

On the other hand, if the reader recognizes that Jennifer chose a profession that forbids sleeping with a client in this manner, then unfortunately maybe it does reflect something poor about her ethics- a possible huge conflict of interest and reflection of her judgment. I can only hope that when they slept together, their attorney-client relationship had been concluded. (I forget).
Well it's already a bit late for that. She is disbarred from being a Lawyer.

[mgs]

she did, I chalk it up to bad, mysoginistic(sp) writing.

[FeminineMystique]

Me too - as in , pro-woman enjoying herself and her body and doing with it what she wants. Folks that have a problem with a woman enjoying her body often have no problem with men doing the same thing - and they do in the marvel universe, over and over again. Jennifer is a strong woman, inside and out, and she enjoyed a night with Marko. Nothing is wrong with that -- I'm more disturbed by an attorney sleeping with her client - which is a violation of the Ethics Rules of all 50 State Bars. She could be disbarred for such behavior. It isn't professional and it isn't acceptable.

If someone has a problem with Jennifer (as a person and/or woman) sleeping around, then that person has deep insecurity problems and probably doesn't know confident, sexually open women in control of their own bodies. The problem is with the reader, not the character.

On the other hand, if the reader recognizes that Jennifer chose a profession that forbids sleeping with a client in this manner, then unfortunately maybe it does reflect something poor about her ethics- a possible huge conflict of interest and reflection of her judgment. I can only hope that when they slept together, their attorney-client relationship had been concluded. (I forget).

Well said:biggrin: Marvel can do without readers like that.

she did, I chalk it up to bad, mysoginistic(sp) writing.

Yes, of course there's nothing more misogynistic than acknowledging the fact women enjoy sex. :rolleyes:

[The Cool Thatguy]

Yes, of course there's nothing more misogynistic than acknowledging the fact women enjoy sex. :rolleyes:

In Chuck Austen's work, that's all they did. Women thought, and talked, only about sex or how to get some in the X-Men issues that he wrote. So in that context, yes, very much so.

[FeminineMystique]

In Chuck Austen's work, that's all they did. Women thought, and talked, only about sex or how to get some in the X-Men issues that he wrote. So in that context, yes, very much so.

Bad writing yes. Misogynistic? I'd say that's an overstatement.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Bad writing yes. Misogynistic? I'd say that's an overstatement.

So writing all female characters as incapable of keeping their legs closed, incapable of thinking about anything but sex isn't sexist/misogynistic?

[Will.S]

Dan used established continuity though (the Earth-A universe was established in an old FF story, as I recall), and he actually addressed a number of continuity errors with it, not just the She-Hulk/Juggernaut thing.

Sure, on the surface it sounds a bit goofy...but at least it finds an in-story way to address and fix continuity errors.
I didn't care for those continuity fixes because they just seemed so blatant.

I think there were better ways to explain inconsistencies and strange relationships without using the silly Earth-A stuff. Don't get me wrong, I generally liked Dan Slott's She-Hulk series being so tongue and cheek and 4th wall breaking but the continuity fixes made the story suffer all the more for it and just seemed a little too over the top than the usual She-Hulk fare. While Dan was alluding the the She-Hulk/Juggernaut thing for a while before he actually "fixed" that with the Earth-A stuff, the Juggernaut thing still seemed indulgent.

It was a pointless retcon, most of them are.

I was happy when Peter David knocked some sense into it and put it back right.
In what issue did Peter David retcon that back?

[XPac]

I didn't care for those continuity fixes because they just seemed so blatant.

I think there were better ways to explain inconsistencies and strange relationships without using the silly Earth-A stuff. Don't get me wrong, I generally liked Dan Slott's She-Hulk series being so tongue and cheek and 4th wall breaking but the continuity fixes made the story suffer all the more for it and just seemed a little too over the top than the usual She-Hulk fare. While Dan was alluding the the She-Hulk/Juggernaut thing for a while before he actually "fixed" that with the Earth-A stuff, the Juggernaut thing still seemed indulgent.


In what issue did Peter David retcon that back?

The silly Earth A stuff did kill 2 birds with one stone though. It additionally was a vehicle for her to permanently get her powers back without spin tech.

For a different book, I'd say that was over the top. But for She Hulk, I think that kinda thing is just par for the course.

[toddcam]

He didn't. There was a short out of continuity story where She-Hulk visited Marvel Comics to complain about their retconning of her relationship with Juggernaut. It ends with her proclaiming her love for him, I believe calling him her "Juggy Wuggy" or some such.

[Cain Marko]

So writing all female characters as incapable of keeping their legs closed, incapable of thinking about anything but sex isn't sexist/misogynistic?

Misogynistic is the one charge levelled against Ausetn I always thought was wrong. I remember him writing all his characters pretty much the same way. With both his males and females having more or less the same wierd, middle school personality. I think Polaris might have been the only one of his with a distinct behavior. And that's only because Austen made her insane.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Misogynistic is the one charge levelled against Ausetn I always thought was wrong. I remember him writing all his characters pretty much the same way. With both his males and females having more or less the same wierd, middle school personality. I think Polaris might have been the only one of his with a distinct behavior. And that's only because Austen made her insane.

He wrote damn near every woman as being unable to go with sex, or talking about it, for five minutes. I mean hell, Husk and Jubilee were standing on Skin's grave, talking about nailing Warren.

Cain reformed, Havok became more capable, Nightcrawler disillusioned, but what did the females on his team ever do? Talk about sex. Misogynistic is a kind description, if anything.

[Cain Marko]

He wrote damn near every woman as being unable to go with sex, or talking about it, for five minutes. I mean hell, Husk and Jubilee were standing on Skin's grave, talking about nailing Warren.

Cain reformed, Havok became more capable, Nightcrawler disillusioned, but what did the females on his team ever do? Talk about sex. Misogynistic is a kind description, if anything.

Thankfully my memory of Austen's work has started to fade so I can't think of the specific examples. But I do recall the womens' hormonalness being mutual with the guys'. He even got the Imposternaut in on it, having Cain apparently start crushing on Husk(WTF?) when she tended to him after he was beaten down for the 1,000th time. I'm pretty sure I remember Northstar having a schoolboy crush on one of the men as well.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Thankfully my memory of Austen's work has started to fade so I can't think of the specific examples. But I do recall the womens' hormonalness being mutual with the guys'. He even got the Imposternaut in on it, having Cain apparently start crushing on Husk(WTF?) when she tended to him after he was beaten down for the 1,000th time. I'm pretty sure I remember Northstar having a schoolboy crush on one of the men as well.

The men were horny sure, but they still got character development. The women didn't

[Cain Marko]

The men were horny sure, but they still got character development.

But all into the same character. :tongue: Personally, I can't think of the men "developing" any more than the women. They all simultaneously appeared with the new uni-personality once Austen started writing them and both genders underwent about equally random changes in my opinion. But to each their own.