Batgirl(s) status in the Batfamily

[frostedone]

Is it just me or does Batgirl traditionally get little recognition as part of the Batman family.

What I mean is usually when there is a Batman family event, either in comics or out, Batgirl is not included. Both Cassandra Cain and Barbara Gordon.

Some recent stuff.

The Hush storyline involved nearly everyone who is close to Batman except Batgirl.

When we get "Batman family" series of action figures and memorabilia, we usually get Bruce, Dick, Tim, Alfred, and Selina. Rarely do we get either Barbara or Cassandra.

Look at this Batman: Reborn stuff, we have yet to see Cassandra other than one non speaking panel in one of the stories.

Look at the Batman RIP stuff, Cassandra was in "The Network", then never seen afterwords. I know we are getting a new Batman: Reborn Batgirl miniseries though.

The only prominence or significant recognition that Batgirl has gotten recently was the DCAU Batman: TAS (4th season primarily), and Batman Beyond. She was also in the "The Batman" cartoon.

It is like Barbara and Cassandra are seen as the "Outsiders" of the Batman family. They are not in the inner circle of Bruce, Tim, Dick, Selina, and Alfred. They are basically Huntress/Batwoman level. (All Gotham women maybe?)

They need some respect.

[Choppa]

Some authors just choose not to use certain characters. It happens all the time.

[DonC]

You're 40 years too late. Go back and get Showcase Presents Batgirl. She was all over the Batfamily back then. And Oracle rocks. I couldn't care less about Cassandra Cain, though.

[ScottyQuick]

Are you daring to imply that most of the Batman writers generally don't care about the women in the Batclan?

Because that couldn't possibly be true! They're getting a book! By fan-favorite Bryan Q. Miller!

[Lorendiac]

You're 40 years too late. Go back and get Showcase Presents Batgirl. She was all over the Batfamily back then. And Oracle rocks. I couldn't care less about Cassandra Cain, though.

On the other hand, I recently had cause to research just when Babs was elected to Congress. I was a bit surprised to read that it was originally intended to be the end of her costumed career. The story was published in "Detective Comics #424" in 1972 and was called "Batgirl's Last Case." I hear that Babs took it for granted that she'd be too busy in Congress to have time for her Batgirl role.

Apparently someone on the editorial staff thought it was time to sideline Babs indefinitely, so they let her be elected to Congress as a way to achieve the vitally important goal of getting her away from Gotham and thus "out of sight and out of mind" as far as the ongoing Batman continuity was concerned? Then three years went by before she was again featured in any Batman-themed title ("Batman Family #1").

So even if we grant that Babs/Batgirl gets less recognition than she deserves, it isn't exactly a new problem!

Heck, I've also heard that Frank Miller hated the Batgirl concept, so he deliberately omitted her from Jim Gordon's family life in "Batman: Year One." Allegedly no one at DC realized the implications of the total absence of "teenage daughter Babs" in "Year One" until it was too late. Then, rather than tell the fans, "We made a big mistake when we approved Frank's story the way it was -- please assume that Jim did, in fact, already have a daughter at that point!", they had to come up with contrived retcons about Babs being Jim Gordon's niece who was orphaned, and then adopted by Jim and his wife, shortly after Year One, and then went on to become the original Batgirl anyway!

[Spiffy]

Is it just me or does Batgirl traditionally get little recognition as part of the Batman family.


It's just you! Nobody has ever mentioned this before! Seriously!

Well, okay, nobody in the last few hours. :biggrin:

[_Move]

My guess is the recent phasing out of Cass as Batgirl to make for whoever takes up the role.

To be honest, she is limited as a character.

Whilst her origin is interesting, her personality outside of the costume is not. This has reflected in her sales. The strong, silent, thoughtful martial artist character works far better with male characters, such as Sanke-Eyes from G.I. Joe, or indeed, Batman (Bruce) himself.

Babs had a very strong out-of-costume character, and this is what most readers relate to. She also had very, very strong ties to the other major Bat-characters at the time (Still does).

Cass does not. Most readers look for commonalities between themselves and their favourite characters. Ask yourself, how many daughters of two of the world's best assassins, who cannot verbalize, and are expert martial artists, read Batman?

The heavily rumored replacement in Steph Brown, has a strong redemptive character, as well as close ties with Tim and Bruce. Her origin as the daughter of a "bad father" trying to make up for his AND her past is highly relatble amongst readership. The character has good development and fan-follwing potential.

Before you decry this position, consider that less than 5% of sales come from this board.

[timbox]

The strong, silent, thoughtful martial artist character works far better with male characters, such as Sanke-Eyes from G.I. Joe, or indeed, Batman (Bruce) himself.


What a ridiculous thing to say. Besides, there is much more to Cass than just that. Her relationship development process is an entire different aspect to her character and it can be pulled off very naturally. The Oracle/Spoiler/Batgirl interaction during Fists of Fury was very well done and really showed that the has a lot of potential to grow.

[_Move]

Name me a popular, strong, silent heroine.

Understand, pointing out a gender difference is not the same as any supposed "ridculousness".

[The Cool Thatguy]

My guess is the recent phasing out of Cass as Batgirl to make for whoever takes up the role.

To be honest, she is limited as a character.

Whilst her origin is interesting, her personality outside of the costume is not. This has reflected in her sales. The strong, silent, thoughtful martial artist character works far better with male characters, such as Sanke-Eyes from G.I. Joe, or indeed, Batman (Bruce) himself.

Babs had a very strong out-of-costume character, and this is what most readers relate to. She also had very, very strong ties to the other major Bat-characters at the time (Still does).

Cass does not. Most readers look for commonalities between themselves and their favourite characters. Ask yourself, how many daughters of two of the world's best assassins, who cannot verbalize, and are expert martial artists, read Batman?

The heavily rumored replacement in Steph Brown, has a strong redemptive character, as well as close ties with Tim and Bruce. Her origin as the daughter of a "bad father" trying to make up for his AND her past is highly relatble amongst readership. The character has good development and fan-follwing potential.

Before you decry this position, consider that less than 5% of sales come from this board.

When you say reflected in her sales, you mean the sales that were superior to Catwoman and Robin when her book was cancelled?

Cassandra has a very strong out of costume character, that of being socially shy and naive. It was a nice contrast to her Batgirl career. She could handle Shiva, but reading a book was a struggle.

Honestly, compared to Spoiler and Babs, Cass has the strongest origin and the greatest fan potential.

And if you think that fans don't like silent ninja chicks, you really ain't been paying attention. We have the fact that Cass' series was doing better than Catwoman's (a far more established character), and we have the fact that Cass was redeemed far faster than Spoiler was resurrected.

But the best evidence that fans like ninja chicks would be X-23 at Marvel. So popular that she moved from the cartoon to canon, starred in several mini series and is a main star in the popular X-Force series. So the idea that fans don't like silent ninja chicks? You'd be the only one thinking that.

[_Move]

When you say reflected in her sales, you mean the sales that were superior to Catwoman and Robin when her book was cancelled?


Do you have the figures?


But the best evidence that fans like ninja chicks would be X-23 at Marvel. So popular that she moved from the cartoon to canon, starred in several mini series and is a main star in the popular X-Force series. So the idea that fans don't like silent ninja chicks? You'd be the only one thinking that.


Myself, and every other fan that bought a comic other than Batgirl.

X-23, much like Harley Quinn before her, has a built-in audience from television. X-Force also stars Wolverine.

Once again, name me a widely popular, strong silent heroine.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Do you have the figures?

X-23, much like Harley Quinn before her, has a built-in audience. X-Force also stars Wolverine.

Once again, name me a widely popular, strong silent heroine.

So X-23 doesn't count because...?

It's been a while so I'd have to look it up, but I remember Cass outselling Catwoman and Robin. Her book was in the upswing in terms of sales when it got canned.

[timbox]

River Tam, although I question your definition of 'widely popular'. 'Strong silent heroine' is also a relative term, open to interpretation.

Alice from Resident Evil and Sarah Conner are other easy choices.

[_Move]

So X-23 doesn't count because...?


By all means, she "counts".

She co-stars in a Wolverine book.


River Tam, although I question your definition of 'widely popular'. 'Strong silent heroine' is also a relative term, open to interpretation.

Alice from Resident Evil and Sarah Conner are other easy choices.


Firefly was also cancelled. My original point had to do with mainstream, not fanboy sales, which make up the minority of viewership and/or readership.

Resident Evil is widely popular, Alice is not.

Terminator has done without Sarah Conner for two movies.

Any others? One more crack then I will explain my reasoning fully.

[The Cool Thatguy]

By all means, she "counts".

She co-stars in a Wolverine book.

She didn't co-star with Wolverine in her first two mini series and she didn't co-star with Wolverine in New X-Men.

Certainly, her relationship with Wolverine helps her popularity, but that's a moot point in a discussion about Batgirl.

[_Move]

She didn't co-star with Wolverine in her first two mini series and she didn't co-star with Wolverine in New X-Men.

Certainly, her relationship with Wolverine helps her popularity, but that's a moot point in a discussion about Batgirl.

Correct. The character has never maintained a solo ongoing, so they are non-comparable.

[timbox]

Any others? One more crack then I will explain my reasoning fully.

It is becoming apparent that your reasoning is to keep adding new requirements in order to disqualify all possible responses. I still feel that it is ridiculous to say that Cassandra Cain would have benefited from being a male, all things being equal. Your opinion is not fact so you should stop presenting it as such.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Correct. The character has never maintained a solo ongoing, so they are non-comparable.

First off, quit moving the goal post. You asked for a popular, silent female character. You got one.

Second, at the time Cass' title was cancelled, it was outselling Hawkman, Firestorm and Catwoman. That's pretty impressive when you factor in just how much the main Bat-books tried to ignore her.

[Will.S]

My question right now is; if we have Batwoman out there as well as Manhunter, The Question, and Huntress, why exactly do we need a Batgirl?

That just seems a little redundant to me.

[timbox]

My question right now is; if we have Batwoman out there, why do we need a Batgirl?

Why do we need Batwoman? Or Robin, Red Robin, and Nightwing? Why do we need Oracle and Spoiler? Why would the Club of Heroes ever come to Gotham City?

[The Cool Thatguy]

My question right now is; if we have Batwoman out there as well as Manhunter, The Question, and Huntress, why exactly do we need a Batgirl?

That just seems a little redundant to me.

So boot Question, Batwoman and Manhunter. Cass was in Gotham first ;)

[Will.S]

Why do we need Batwoman? Or Robin, Red Robin, and Nightwing? Why do we need Oracle and Spoiler? Why would the Club of Heroes ever come to Gotham City?I knew someone would use this response and while it is a valid response, they all fulfull different roles.

There's already a female Bat character out there so whoever the new Batgirl is will have to have a really unique purpose and fill a need that isn't already given by Batman and Robin, Batgirl, Manhunter, Red Robin, Oracle, Spoiler, Huntress and so on.

[timbox]

I don’t see how female Bat character is a unique role at all. Batwoman and Nightwing are simply two more cowls to assist Batman’s mission.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I knew someone would use this response and while it is a valid response, they all fulfull different roles.

There's already a female Bat character out there so whoever the new Batgirl is will have to have a really unique purpose and fill a need that isn't already given by Batman and Robin, Batgirl, Manhunter, Red Robin, Oracle, Spoiler, Huntress and so on.

That answer's easy. Besides the fact that she helps flesh out the more professional side of Gotham, she serves as a sister to Robin/Nightwing and daughter to Batman (in theory). She's the Batclan member who doesn't flirt with being screwed up, but actually is.

Voila.

[_Move]

My reasoning is reasoning, quite simply. Deductive reasoning leads to truth.

I understand Timbox, judging by the effort put into your Cassandra Cain thread, that you are quite a fan of this character. Good for you. This thread however, is why the current Batgirl seems to be getting the short shaft of the stick in the current DCU and is soon to be replaced.

You also seem to have taken some offence to the notion of lesser verbal communicative ability being a male character trait.

First of all, the subject of Batgirl.

There is no doubt that Barbara Gordon is the definitive Batgirl. Her run in the comics lasted well over 20 years, creating a pop culture icon in multiple media, even going so far as to ensure a third season of the Adam West TV series when it was on the brink of cancellation after the first two series. the actress who portrayed her, Yvonne Craig, also appeared in a highly influential commercial advocating equal pay rights for women in the 70's. Barbara, as Batgirl, has always been depicted as an extremely intelligent, hard-working, well-adjusted resourceful figure that balanced her crime fighting with her college and librarian career, as well as often providing the voice of reason among disputes between Bruce and Dick. As Oracle, she has served as the DCU's communication and information hub up until present. Her worth, as a comic book character, as a female role model and cultural icon, cannot be ignored.

Cassandra Cain, on the other hand, was created by Kelley Puckett with little to no thought to her background, origin, or legitamate connection to the Bat-Family other than she was a courier for Oracle during No-Man's-Land. It is quite clear she was created to fill a percieved hole in female batman protagonists, and the Bat-girl mantle specifically.

A poorly established character generally has little hope for longeviety without some serious retconning by extremely talented writers. Hush is a good example of this. Cassandra, unfortunately, is not. A female character who embodies male traits lacks longevity, and a wide reader base.

Now, in this era of being overly "PC" and the use of misplaced "sexism" accusations, I will say this -

The sexes are equal, but they are not the same.

We have different physiologies, psychologies and behavioral patterns.
Understanding gender differences, strengths and roles in society is a far more mature mindset than immaturely assuming what works in a male lead will work in a female lead.



Barbara Gordon was always a forward-thinking feminist icon for her time. She embodied female strengths, namely communication, especially now as Oracle.

Cassandra Cain embodies physical and martial prowress.


Many studies have shown that women talk much, much more than men, up to three times as much on any given day. When you create a female character that lacks this one, simple, undeniable female trait, you instantly lose connection with the majority of the potential female audience.

Comics, specifically DC, are largely action-oriented, and have a large male readership. By alienating the smaller percentage of female readers, as well as knowing that male readers are unlikely to pick up Batgirl over a similar male Bat-title, you are narrowing reaership.

Her role in the Redemption arc, along with her Outsiders stint may well have been DC testing the waters to see if the character was still commercially viable in the Batgirl role. Obviously, they have chosen not to continue with her as Batgirl. They are a business, change sparks sales, as well as relatble teen heroes. Cassandra is neither new nor relatable to current readership.
Comics are no longer the solitary domain of social introverts, due to representation in other media, film and television specifically, there are more and more casual readers wandering into comic stores. Of the female quotient of this casual fan, they may well pick up the new Batgirl.

As far as the new Batgirl goes, I think you may just find she is largely more feminine in her character, along with the requestive ass-kicking, she no doubt will have a romantic interest in Tim, as Steph is heavily rumored for the role. Another thing lacking in Cass' storyline. Romantic interests are highly conductive towards female readership, as Twilight or any number of shojo manga show.


I understand that there are exceptions to the rule, that there are girls who only look for action in their comics, my last girlfriend was one, however, the majority of readership respond to a well-rounded, fully formed, female lead characters.

Cassandra was only one side of the coin. I'm glad you guys are fans, but these are the reasons why she is no longer Batgirl.

[Nevets F]

All that said...I think Cassandra is a far better Batgirl than Barbara ever was.

[The Cool Thatguy]

My reasoning is reasoning, quite simply. Deductive reasoning leads to truth.

I understand Timbox, judging by the effort put into your Cassandra Cain thread, that you are quite a fan of this character. Good for you. This thread however, is why the current Batgirl seems to be getting the short shaft of the stick in the current DCU and is soon to be replaced.

You also seem to have taken some offence to the notion of lesser verbal communicative ability being a male character trait.

First of all, the subject of Batgirl.

There is no doubt that Barbara Gordon is the definitive Batgirl. Her run in the comics lasted well over 20 years, creating a pop culture icon in multiple media, even going so far as to ensure a third season of the Adam West TV series when it was on the brink of cancellation after the first two series. the actress who portrayed her, Yvonne Craig, also appeared in a highly influential commercial advocating equal pay rights for women in the 70's. Barbara, as Batgirl, has always been depicted as an extremely intelligent, hard-working, well-adjusted resourceful figure that balanced her crime fighting with her college and librarian career, as well as often providing the voice of reason among disputes between Bruce and Dick. As Oracle, she has served as the DCU's communication and information hub up until present. Her worth, as a comic book character, as a female role model and cultural icon, cannot be ignored.

Cassandra Cain, on the other hand, was created by Kelley Puckett with little to no thought to her background, origin, or legitamate connection to the Bat-Family other than she was a courier for Oracle during No-Man's-Land. It is quite clear she was created to fill a percieved hole in female batman protagonists, and the Bat-girl mantle specifically.

.

Yeah, that's where it became blindingly obvious you have no idea what you're talking about.

While Cass was introduced as a courier, it was clearly indicated that she was more than she appeared. An issue later, she was given a clear, concise origin. You might know that had you read the issue.

She has no more or less connection to Batman than Tim Drake or Jason Todd. At least Cass avoided pointless homogeniality. Simply because she has a strong origin without Batman means that her character is completely removed from him. As a matter of fact, Batman compliments her character.

The reasons why Cass isn't still Batgirl have nothing to do with marketability and everything to do with nostalgia. The current regime is convinced that anything not created in or resembles something from the Silver Age, or by themselves, is worthless. Hence why we had Kathy Kane Batwoman forced upon us.

Bette Kane fans couldn't get her a series. Babs fans were never enough to return her to the field. Spoiler fans had to trudge on for years before her return.

Compared to that, how long did Cass fans have to wait for DC to reverse itself?

[Psavell2]

Many studies have shown that women talk much, much more than men, up to three times as much on any given day. When you create a female character that lacks this one, simple, undeniable female trait, you instantly lose connection with the majority of the potential female audience.

So who says a female character has to have a large female audience to succeed? I'm a man and Cassandra was my favorite character back when she had a book, and right now Manhunter is one of my two favorite characters. The reason I like them is because of their traditionally male characteristics which you have pointed out.

[ryerye17]

AAAARGH! The Bat-Family right now is frankly TOO big. Batman, Robin, Red Robin, Huntress, Spoiler, Manhunter, Batwoman, Question, Azrael, Catwoman (if she counts) and Batgirl!

not to be off-base, but considering it takes one whole Bat family to protect Gotham, while Metropolis just needs Superman.

Sort of puts things in perspective, eh?

[ScottyQuick]

Name me a popular, strong, silent heroine.

Understand, pointing out a gender difference is not the same as any supposed "ridculousness".

... we're talking about one. How did you miss that?

[Will.S]

I don’t see how female Bat character is a unique role at all. Batwoman and Nightwing are simply two more cowls to assist Batman’s mission.
Well Batwoman was given Detective Comics because Rucka is going to play up that aspect with her right? Dick in the main role doing the Batman thing with Damian so there's that role filled. I would say that at this point Tim is dangerously close to feeling like the extra baggage given what they've done with Damian taking his stead so his title really has to feel very different and reflect his status.

I'm not even talking about Cassandra Cain because DC seems to want to keep her on the outskirts from what I've seen. I'm mostly talking about whoever the new Batgirl will be, if her purpose and use to the Batman books are not handled well enough, she's just going to feel extraneous.

[Blight]

It's wierd how badly DC treats the female opposites of the Bat. If you need anymore evidence just look at Batwoman. It took DC how long to finally get a story with her not being second fiddle to the new Question? Not to mention her having an actual origin. And after all that media hype as well. But really besides her meeting Dick in 52 and the brief meeting with Bruce in Tec, she really has no real connection at all with the Bat Family. She's just there. Almost like the complete opposite of how DC introduced Cassandra by actually giving all that in her first two appearances.

[The Cool Thatguy]

It's wierd how badly DC treats the female opposites of the Bat. If you need anymore evidence just look at Batwoman. It took DC how long to finally get a story with her not being second fiddle to the new Question? Not to mention her having an actual origin. And after all that media hype as well. But really besides her meeting Dick in 52 and the brief meeting with Bruce in Tec, she really has no real connection at all with the Bat Family. She's just there. Almost like the complete opposite of how DC introduced Cassandra by actually giving all that in her first two appearances.

I don't know if I'd cite Batwoman as an example of poor treatment. DC scuttled Batgirl for her, pushed her character in the popular 52 and gave her a connection to a well established character.

Cass has to earn her way, but Batwoman's had it paved for her, really.

[carabas]

I don't know if I'd cite Batwoman as an example of poor treatment. DC scuttled Batgirl for her, pushed her character in the popular 52 and gave her a connection to a well established character.
But first, they gave her an ongoing series byDevin Grayson, canceled it with two issues completed but unpublished, threw the character into 52 at the last moment, where the writers didn't really know who she was or what they were supposed to do with her, and after that she pretty much ceised to exist.

Until Greg Rucka and Williams III started on a second Batwoman ongoing the first issues of which have been ready now for well over a year, which is also aborted and shoved into Detective comiocs instead.

[Perkele]

I suspect the main reason Batgirl and other gender reversed superheroes don't really work that well is because conceptually they are little more than cheap, unoriginal copies. For me at least, that's sort of an initial turnoff. It doesn't really send you the message that the book they're in is going to be imaginitive. This is of course, merely an image thing, a general impression, and doesn't mean a character like this is instantly doomed to fail. They just have to work a lot harder to stand out and sometimes it's deemed not worth the extra trouble when talent that could turn that character could better be utilized on the original or somehwere else.

[carabas]

I suspect the main reason Batgirl and other gender reversed superheroes don't really work that well is because conceptually they are little more than cheap, unoriginal copies.It's not that Cass-Batgirl didn't work. It was a succesful book. This is simply a case of sabotage. Editorial, for whatever reason, simply does not like the character.

[numberONE]

My reasoning is reasoning, quite simply. Deductive reasoning leads to truth.

I understand Timbox, judging by the effort put into your Cassandra Cain thread, that you are quite a fan of this character. Good for you. This thread however, is why the current Batgirl seems to be getting the short shaft of the stick in the current DCU and is soon to be replaced.

You also seem to have taken some offence to the notion of lesser verbal communicative ability being a male character trait.

First of all, the subject of Batgirl.

There is no doubt that Barbara Gordon is the definitive Batgirl. Her run in the comics lasted well over 20 years, creating a pop culture icon in multiple media, even going so far as to ensure a third season of the Adam West TV series when it was on the brink of cancellation after the first two series. the actress who portrayed her, Yvonne Craig, also appeared in a highly influential commercial advocating equal pay rights for women in the 70's. Barbara, as Batgirl, has always been depicted as an extremely intelligent, hard-working, well-adjusted resourceful figure that balanced her crime fighting with her college and librarian career, as well as often providing the voice of reason among disputes between Bruce and Dick. As Oracle, she has served as the DCU's communication and information hub up until present. Her worth, as a comic book character, as a female role model and cultural icon, cannot be ignored.

Cassandra Cain, on the other hand, was created by Kelley Puckett with little to no thought to her background, origin, or legitamate connection to the Bat-Family other than she was a courier for Oracle during No-Man's-Land. It is quite clear she was created to fill a percieved hole in female batman protagonists, and the Bat-girl mantle specifically.

A poorly established character generally has little hope for longeviety without some serious retconning by extremely talented writers. Hush is a good example of this. Cassandra, unfortunately, is not. A female character who embodies male traits lacks longevity, and a wide reader base.

Now, in this era of being overly "PC" and the use of misplaced "sexism" accusations, I will say this -

The sexes are equal, but they are not the same.

We have different physiologies, psychologies and behavioral patterns.
Understanding gender differences, strengths and roles in society is a far more mature mindset than immaturely assuming what works in a male lead will work in a female lead.



Barbara Gordon was always a forward-thinking feminist icon for her time. She embodied female strengths, namely communication, especially now as Oracle.

Cassandra Cain embodies physical and martial prowress.


Many studies have shown that women talk much, much more than men, up to three times as much on any given day. When you create a female character that lacks this one, simple, undeniable female trait, you instantly lose connection with the majority of the potential female audience.

Comics, specifically DC, are largely action-oriented, and have a large male readership. By alienating the smaller percentage of female readers, as well as knowing that male readers are unlikely to pick up Batgirl over a similar male Bat-title, you are narrowing reaership.

Her role in the Redemption arc, along with her Outsiders stint may well have been DC testing the waters to see if the character was still commercially viable in the Batgirl role. Obviously, they have chosen not to continue with her as Batgirl. They are a business, change sparks sales, as well as relatble teen heroes. Cassandra is neither new nor relatable to current readership.
Comics are no longer the solitary domain of social introverts, due to representation in other media, film and television specifically, there are more and more casual readers wandering into comic stores. Of the female quotient of this casual fan, they may well pick up the new Batgirl.

As far as the new Batgirl goes, I think you may just find she is largely more feminine in her character, along with the requestive ass-kicking, she no doubt will have a romantic interest in Tim, as Steph is heavily rumored for the role. Another thing lacking in Cass' storyline. Romantic interests are highly conductive towards female readership, as Twilight or any number of shojo manga show.


I understand that there are exceptions to the rule, that there are girls who only look for action in their comics, my last girlfriend was one, however, the majority of readership respond to a well-rounded, fully formed, female lead characters.

Cassandra was only one side of the coin. I'm glad you guys are fans, but these are the reasons why she is no longer Batgirl.

All the points your making, make sense to me. Guys are less-likely to read a book about a girl character, than they are a book about a male character. And woman are less likely to read a book about a girl character they can't relate, than they are a book about a character they can relate to.

AAAARGH! The Bat-Family right now is frankly TOO big. Batman, Robin, Red Robin, Huntress, Spoiler, Manhunter, Batwoman, Question, Azrael, Catwoman (if she counts) and Batgirl!

not to be off-base, but considering it takes one whole Bat family to protect Gotham, while Metropolis just needs Superman.

Sort of puts things in perspective, eh?

Well, Superman is REALLY powerful. Or is that the point your making?

I agree, it's a bit too big. I'm reading Knightfall, now, and the Bat family seems so small. Batman, Asrael, Robin, and Huntress.

Oh, yeah, and Oracle. Who's looking after Blüdhaven, right now?

[Will.S]

But first, they gave her an ongoing series byDevin Grayson, canceled it with two issues completed but unpublished, threw the character into 52 at the last moment, where the writers didn't really know who she was or what they were supposed to do with her, and after that she pretty much ceised to exist.

Until Greg Rucka and Williams III started on a second Batwoman ongoing the first issues of which have been ready now for well over a year, which is also aborted and shoved into Detective comiocs instead.
Don't forget that she was also in Crime Bible and Final Crisis Revelations.

[Lorendiac]

Many studies have shown that women talk much, much more than men, up to three times as much on any given day. When you create a female character that lacks this one, simple, undeniable female trait, you instantly lose connection with the majority of the potential female audience.

I think you are vastly oversimplifying when you suggest that Cassandra's terse way of expressing herself means she instantly loses any "connection" she otherwise could have had with most female readers. I believe the "typical female reader" is perfectly capable of appreciating a character who does a heck of a lot less talking in a normal day of her fictional life than the typical female reader does in a normal day in real life -- if that character is presented in an interesting and sympathetic way in other regards!

[Spiffy]

I suspect the main reason Batgirl and other gender reversed superheroes don't really work
Huh? 73 issues seems to argue it "worked". You don't run for 6 years with a flawed formula.

All the points your making, make sense to me. Guys are less-likely to read a book about a girl character, than they are a book about a male character.
That's true. It's why Wonder Woman's book is also always at risk, despite being one of the oldest running titles in comic book history.

[Captain Jim]

Is it just me or does Batgirl traditionally get little recognition as part of the Batman family.

What I mean is usually when there is a Batman family event, either in comics or out, Batgirl is not included. Both Cassandra Cain and Barbara Gordon.

Some recent stuff.

The Hush storyline involved nearly everyone who is close to Batman except Batgirl.

When we get "Batman family" series of action figures and memorabilia, we usually get Bruce, Dick, Tim, Alfred, and Selina. Rarely do we get either Barbara or Cassandra.

Look at this Batman: Reborn stuff, we have yet to see Cassandra other than one non speaking panel in one of the stories.

Look at the Batman RIP stuff, Cassandra was in "The Network", then never seen afterwords. I know we are getting a new Batman: Reborn Batgirl miniseries though.

The only prominence or significant recognition that Batgirl has gotten recently was the DCAU Batman: TAS (4th season primarily), and Batman Beyond. She was also in the "The Batman" cartoon.

It is like Barbara and Cassandra are seen as the "Outsiders" of the Batman family. They are not in the inner circle of Bruce, Tim, Dick, Selina, and Alfred. They are basically Huntress/Batwoman level. (All Gotham women maybe?)

They need some respect.

I think you're making too big of a generalization. For a long time, Cassie WAS included in Batman family events. For example, Bruce Wayne: Murderer, Bruce Wayne Fugitive and War Games. She stopped being included when her book was cancelled.

On the other hand, I recently had cause to research just when Babs was elected to Congress. I was a bit surprised to read that it was originally intended to be the end of her costumed career. The story was published in "Detective Comics #424" in 1972 and was called "Batgirl's Last Case." I hear that Babs took it for granted that she'd be too busy in Congress to have time for her Batgirl role.

Apparently someone on the editorial staff thought it was time to sideline Babs indefinitely, so they let her be elected to Congress as a way to achieve the vitally important goal of getting her away from Gotham and thus "out of sight and out of mind" as far as the ongoing Batman continuity was concerned? Then three years went by before she was again featured in any Batman-themed title ("Batman Family #1").

This was also only a short time after Robin was sent away to college. It was a time when they were intentionally trying to distance themselves from the sixties TV show and re-establish Batman as a loner.

[Captain Jim]

test................

[timbox]

Guys are less-likely to read a book about a girl character, than they are a book about a male character. And woman are less likely to read a book about a girl character they can't relate, than they are a book about a character they can relate to.


I don't think this is true at all. I've never even heard this suggested before and it sounds a little silly.

[Spiffy]

I don't think this is true at all. I've never even heard this suggested before and it sounds a little silly.
You don't think guys are less likely to read books starring female characters?

I'd like to live in that world, sure, but I don't think we do.

Unless you mean the part about women only reading characters they can relate to. I think there's at least a chance that could be true, but absent any proof I guess that one is pretty much a wash.

[timbox]

You don't think guys are less likely to read books starring female characters?

I'd like to live in that world, sure, but I don't think we do.


Is this an insecurity thing?

[Jmacq1]

My guess is the recent phasing out of Cass as Batgirl to make for whoever takes up the role.

To be honest, she is limited as a character.

Whilst her origin is interesting, her personality outside of the costume is not. This has reflected in her sales.

Prior to her title being cancelled so she could be butchered as a character, Batgirl's monthly title outsold both Robin and Catwoman on multiple occasions.

If you're referring to her appearances since then, her only solo title appearance was written by the same person that performed the character assassination in the first place, and who has continually demonstrated a significant lack of knowledge and/or caring as to Cassandra's previous characterization....I'm sure you can imagine why it might not exactly have enthused the fandom.

You've approached this entire conversation as though Cassandra Cain were a character with no popularity whatsoever, which is frankly a highly flawed perspective. Her title ran for 6 years in this era where most newly-launched solo series don't make it past 1.

While it's true that Batgirl was included in some Bat-family events, her exclusion from Hush was pretty glaring, and I suspect was the beginning of Didio's/editorial's campaign to derail/sideline the character. Her title was still being sold at the time, as I recall. Yet she wasn't even mentioned in the highest-profile "event" to happen with the Batman title in years (at the time).

[Spiffy]

Is this an insecurity thing?
It's a reality thing.

That's not to say boys and men never watch or read female characters. But for every Buffy Summers, there are several dozen other female characters which completely fall by the wayside for no better reason than "hey, I don't want to read 'bout no chick!"

[Jmacq1]

It's a reality thing.

That's not to say boys and men never watch or read female characters. But for every Buffy Summers, there are several dozen other female characters which completely fall by the wayside for no better reason than "hey, I don't want to read 'bout no chick!"

I think that may be oversimplifying it. A lot of it depends on the characterization of the female character in question, as well as the writer/artist team on the book.

That's also saying nothing of the female characters that are mainstays of team books that also have a strong fan-following.

[timbox]

I guess the guys I hang around with know they would be in deep shit if they said something like that to me.

On second thought, that sounds like the sort of guy that doesn't read much to begin with.

[Spiffy]

I think that may be oversimplifying it. A lot of it depends on the characterization of the female character in question, as well as the writer/artist team on the book.

That's also saying nothing of the female characters that are mainstays of team books that also have a strong fan-following.
Sure it's oversimplifying it. But that doesn't mean it isn't real. I think it's known as the "Boys Don't Buy Wonder Woman T-Shirts Effect".

It's certainly not universal. Buffy and Xena couldn't have been successes without male followings. And certainly there's an advantage to any female character where sexuality is used as a hook--like the way that every Witchblade cover features a good amount of T&A. But just as an OVERALL thing? I think its true. It just VARIES based on those other factors, it doesn't disappear.

[Spiffy]

I guess the guys I hang around with know they would be in deep shit if they said something like that to me.

On second thought, that sounds like the sort of guy that doesn't read much to begin with.
Should reality bow to political correctness?

And honestly, why would it bother you that much that guys probably tend to read characters they IDENTIFY with more than ones which they don't?

Sure, the more ignorant and less coherent might grunt and talk about "chick books", but peel away the loathing for cavemen and look at it more objectively. Do those guys also go to "chick flicks" when you aren't around? Or are they only going to them when they are WITH you? They might be GOOD films, and no generalization is an absolute rule, but sorry... for the MOST PART guys don't tend to patronize certain movies if they have a choice.

With comic books that's probably somewhat less of a factor, because the subject matter of a Supergirl or Batgirl book is still probably going to be action and suspense, but don't you think the point of view of the books might affect who it appeals to somewhat? Not with everyone, but certainly with enough that there's a skew?

[ryerye17]

Should reality bow to political correctness?

And honestly, why would it bother you that much that guys probably tend to read characters they IDENTIFY with more than ones which they don't?

Sure, the more ignorant and less coherent might grunt and talk about "chick books", but peel away the loathing for cavemen and look at it more objectively. Do those guys also go to "chick flicks" when you aren't around? Or are they going to them because they are WITH you? They might be GOOD films, and no generalization is an absolute rule, but sorry... for the MOST PART guys don't tend to patronize certain movies if they have a choice.

With comic books that's probably somewhat less of a factor, because the subject matter of a Supergirl or Batgirl book is still probably going to be action and suspense, but don't you think the point of view of the books might affect who it appeals to somewhat? Not with everyone, but certainly with enough that there's a skew?
That's one of the most sexist comic book thing-y I've read.

[Spiffy]

That's one of the most sexist comic book thing-y I've read.
Alright. So curse me as a pig. But don't let your loathing for me supplant logic. Whether you like it or not, and whether you curse me for mentioning it or not, people tend to be drawn to protagonists they identify with. Men identify with men, and women with women. Not always. Not exclusively. And its certainly skewed somewhat in a modern more enlightened world where sexual roles aren't as hard-fast or conservative, but rather than merely dismiss the possibility of it because you deem it sexist, I contend that if you are looking at why female fronted books usually don't sell as well, it's probably a factor. And if saying that, if being a realist about it (which ISN'T the same thing as endorsing it), makes me a pig, then I guess I'm a pig.

[timbox]

I have no problem with anyone not liking a 'chick flick' or not liking a book based on the content, I don't even like Buffy or Xena; I just have never thought twice about the gender of the lead role so it's weird to hear that even be an issue.

I hardly think Batgirl is a girly book at all, so saying it would be better received if it was Batboy just seems ridiculous.

[Spiffy]

I hardly think Batgirl is a girly book at all, so saying it would be better received if it was Batboy just seems ridiculous.

It's not (well, wasn't when it existed) a girly book. We're talking about perception here, not reality. Especially from people who aren't reading it. Those people don't know what you and I knew from actually reading it. They had to coast by on their casual assumptions and existing prejudices.

On boards like this I think we tend to often forget that 90% of readers are casual. With less depth of knowledge, narrower reading lists, more reliance on pop culture, and a less discerning nature.

As for Batboy? Well, that's Robin. Who until his many animated series appearances and the high profile that gave the character probably had his own marketing problems. But that's another subject entirely.

[timbox]

I thought all the young boys wanted to read about the sexy girls.

[Spiffy]

I thought all the young boys wanted to read about the sexy girls.

Not books with words. :rolleyes:

But joking aside, that's why a good number of the sales which exist are there. Supergirl gets a shorter and shorter skirt, and maybe readership picks up. Wally Wood draws Power Girl with a hole in her shirt and breasts bigger than her head (and generations of other artists follow his example) and some readership gets picked up.

Batgirl being a little more covered up probably hurt her sales where that was a criteria. Not that the book sold all that badly, as plenty of us mention earlier in this thread it wasn't canceled because of horrible sales but because of editorial interference. We've just been diverted since then into a more general discussion of why female fronted books might occasionally have a bit more trouble. I know Wonder Woman frequently faces this kind of debate, since people always harp on why it can't sell anywhere near the Superman and Batman levels.

[ryerye17]

Alright. So curse me as a pig. But don't let your loathing for me supplant logic. Whether you like it or not, and whether you curse me for mentioning it or not, people tend to be drawn to protagonists they identify with. Men identify with men, and women with women. Not always. Not exclusively. And its certainly skewed somewhat in a modern more enlightened world where sexual roles aren't as hard-fast or conservative, but rather than merely dismiss the possibility of it because you deem it sexist, I contend that if you are looking at why female fronted books usually don't sell as well, it's probably a factor. And if saying that, if being a realist about it (which ISN'T the same thing as endorsing it), makes me a pig, then I guess I'm a pig.

I don't think you're a pig =) . It's more of less really what we have been brought up to accept as "normal".

On "Men identify with men, and women identify with women". Not really. I mean, feminism, chauvinism, sexism. At end, we're all just people =) And if we followed this logic, note that men have supported women's rights movements (suffrage) and heterosexual people have supported the fight against prop 8.

Personally, I've known a couple of guys who pick up Wonder Woman back when it was sort of good. As well as a lot of people who posted in the Cassandra Cain-appreciation thread here. So, there.

I absolutey love Zatanna, Dianna, Dinah, Kate K. and Kate S.

And for crying out loud, I'm biologically male! =P

EDIT : OMG, I totally forgot Helena, Barbara and Renee

[Psavell2]

Personally, I've known a couple of guys who pick up Wonder Woman back when it was sort of good.

Waaaay back when I was little, I used to spend part of my hard earned $2.00 a week allowance on the Wonder Woman comic just to get the Huntress back-up feature that was running in it at the time. I don't know whose point of view this supports, I'm just saying.

[Spiffy]

On "Men identify with men, and women identify with women". Not really. I mean, feminism, chauvinism, sexism. At end, we're all just people =) And if we followed this logic, note that men have supported women's rights movements (suffrage) and heterosexual people have supported the fight against prop 8.


But its not the same logic to follow. What does one really have to do with the other? One is a social agenda and the other is identifying with characters in a story. Those use very different parts of the brain.

Personally, I've known a couple of guys who pick up Wonder Woman back when it was sort of good. As well as a lot of people who posted in the Cassandra Cain-appreciation thread here. So, there.

I absolutey love Zatanna, Dianna, Dinah, Kate K. and Kate S.
Again, I think there's a difference between the hard core comic book fans who post in a comic book forum and are more broad in their reading habits and the casual readers who form the larger silent part of comic book sales. Your acquaintances, even if they don't post in a forum like this, probably fall more towards the more enlightened side, if only because they interact with you. People of a similar mindset tend to clump together. But the larger silent majority out there? When people are absent more specific data, they fall back on general societal mores and gender roles learned from infancy.

Besides, loving those characters isn't the same thing as committing to them, dollarwise, in a proportionate quantity to male characters. I doubt anyone here could seriously argue that happens.

And isn't that how this all relates back to our original discussion? It's not that a female character won't have fans, Batgirl certainly did (which is why DC's treatment of the character has been a shame), it's that there's an UPHILL battle for female characters ALREADY, so the reasonable level success of a character like Cassandra Cain being disrupted by editorial fiat is even MORE of a shame, because it dismantled a rare success (6 years of reasonable sales is successful, I'd argue).

[Jared]

That's one of the most sexist comic book thing-y I've read.

It's a dead-on assessment. You're in deep denial if you think otherwise.

Men and women, boys and girls, in general, tend to gravitate toward different stories and characters. There are some things which crossover almost equally, like Harry Potter. Then there are things like Twilight, which don't.

Anyway, I always thought the biggest problem with Cass is that she seems like an anime/manga character that was created for the Batverse to cash in after The Matrix came out. That, and her origin is too similar to Azrael. And, for that matter there's some Jason Tood syndrome, in that she'll always be seen as the usurper of the title, and there wasn't even a whole lot of hatred for Babs like there was for Jason before he died. If it's not Barbara, the third Batgirl will probably be more Barbara-like, rather than silent ninja chick, and that will get her some more points with Babs fans.

[ScottyQuick]

Batgirl being a little more covered up probably hurt her sales where that was a criteria. Not that the book sold all that badly, as plenty of us mention earlier in this thread it wasn't canceled because of horrible sales but because of editorial interference. We've just been diverted since then into a more general discussion of why female fronted books might occasionally have a bit more trouble. I know Wonder Woman frequently faces this kind of debate, since people always harp on why it can't sell anywhere near the Superman and Batman levels.

I'd say poor marketing, no sales outside of direct market, lack of in-house advertising, no exterior series (there's Superman: The Animated Series and Batman: The Animated Series) and lack of in-title consistency* hurt Wonder Woman more then her gender.

*Goddess of Truth! No wait, secret identity! In love with Io! No wait, falling for douche!

[Captain Jim]

I don't think this is true at all. I've never even heard this suggested before and it sounds a little silly.

Then maybe you haven't been around very long? It's been a well known fact in the comics industry for decades. Why do you think there are so few super-heroine titles?

[Spiffy]

It's a dead-on assessment. You're in deep denial if you think otherwise.

Men and women, boys and girls, in general, tend to gravitate toward different stories and characters. There are some things which crossover almost equally, like Harry Potter. Then there are things like Twilight, which don't.
There's a kind of logic among some that gender roles, any strong FIXED gender role at least, is evil. It sometimes leads to a kind of denial about how much of the world operates, and occasionally to some fairly casual accusations of sexism.

A character like Cassandra can cross those divides to some degree. Her stories were action oriented and engaging and not "girly" in any sense (even the ones where she tried to date). And to a degree it worked--the numbers on the ongoing Batgirl book were decent enough that there had to be a good amount of cross-over readership. Plenty of guys were reading the book (probably more guys than girls, since overall I think its still true that far more guys are into comics in the first place).

But the reality of the situation with ANY female fronted book is that its an uphill battle. A book like the current incarnation of DETECTIVE COMICS, with Batwoman in place, is probably doing pretty well based on the clever trick of slipping the character into place in that long established book and hoping that most of the previous subscribers stay on. Plus, the impressive creative team is helping too. But if the SAME team had been put on an ongoing BATWOMAN book instead, without the DETECTIVE name? I bet the sales wouldn't be as good.

Really, its all about pulling in the mass public, not the "better informed".

[carabas]

I'd say poor marketing, no sales outside of direct market, lack of in-house advertising, no exterior series (there's Superman: The Animated Series and Batman: The Animated Series) and lack of in-title consistency* hurt Wonder Woman more then her gender.

*Goddess of Truth! No wait, secret identity! In love with Io! No wait, falling for douche!
Yep, dead on.
For someone who is supposedly part of their trinity, DC sure doesn't seem to like Wonder Woman very much.

[kane]

A book like the current incarnation of DETECTIVE COMICS, with Batwoman in place, is probably doing pretty well based on the clever trick of slipping the character into place in that long established book and hoping that most of the previous subscribers stay on. Plus, the impressive creative team is helping too. But if the SAME team had been put on an ongoing BATWOMAN book instead, without the DETECTIVE name? I bet the sales wouldn't be as good.

Really, its all about pulling in the mass public, not the "better informed".

I droped detective, so DC`s marketing trick did not work on me and they lost a reader. I do not know if i am representative though.

[carabas]

Did you drop it jus because Batwoman is starring in it now, or because you don't like what Ruck and Williams are doing with the character?

[kane]

Did you drop it jus because Batwoman is starring in it now, or because you don't like what Ruck and Williams are doing with the character?

Because Batwoman is starring in it. I do not care about the character. So instead gaining new readers they lost one. I do not understand why they did not simply publish a Batwoman mini series or something like that. Then i would still buy Detective and people who are interested in Batwoman could buy the mini.

[ryerye17]

Because Batwoman is starring in it. I do not care about the character. So instead gaining new readers they lost one. I do not understand why they did not simply publish a Batwoman mini series or something like that. Then i would still buy Detective and people who are interested in Batwoman could buy the mini.

You underestimate Kate's appeal. Marketing strategy, remember?

And besides, Dick Grayson in four books as a substitute Batman? Uh, uh, not working.

[carabas]

Because Batwoman is starring in it.How open-minded of you.

So instead gaining new readers they lost one. I do not understand why they did not simply publish a Batwoman mini series or something like that. Then i would still buy Detective and people who are interested in Batwoman could buy the mini.
Because more people will buy Detective Comics starring Bat-Woman than a will buy a Bat-Woman mini. Probably tens of thousands more, even.

Meanwhile, Dini's Detective run is continued in the pages of Streets Of Gotham and Gotham Sirens. Everybody wins.

[kane]

You underestimate Kate's appeal. Marketing strategy, remember?

Maybe it will work. I do not know. It is not like i have a problem with a Batwoman success. It is simply something i am not interested in.

And besides, Dick Grayson in four books as a substitute Batman? Uh, uh, not working.

4? Batman, Batman and Robin and ...?

[kane]

How open-minded of you.


So open minded in your opinion means buying a book with a character you are not interested in? Why should i do that? I rather spend my money on other books.

[ryerye17]

4? Batman, Batman and Robin and ...?

SOG technically deals wih the new batman. I mean, DC and Sirens have their own thing but SOG sort of revolves around Dick in a way.

[Captain Jim]

How open-minded of you.

Why would you say that? Just because he doesn't like a particular character, how does that make him close minded?

Because more people will buy Detective Comics starring Bat-Woman than a will buy a Bat-Woman mini. Probably tens of thousands more, even.

You really think so? Why would that be?

[Psavell2]

You really think so? Why would that be?

I don't know where he gets those numbers from, but it makes sense. Let's face it, there are a good many obsessed collectors out there that wouldn't be able to stand having holes in their collection even if it would only be numerically, whereas buying a brand new series would require interest in the character herself.

Of course we don't realistically know how that would have turned out as opposed to the approach taken, since we don't know how many people dropped the book because of Batwoman, how many new readers replaced them for the same reason, or what the reasons were for each individual who stuck with the book.

[Jared]

Yep, dead on.
For someone who is supposedly part of their trinity, DC sure doesn't seem to like Wonder Woman very much.

It's my understanding that Wonderwoman's regular book would have been canceled several times by now, but for the fact that DC has to keep it in publication in order to retain the rights to the character.

[ScottyQuick]

Why would you say that? Just because he doesn't like a particular character, how does that make him close minded?

Disliking a character before you have ever given her a chance is close minded.

It's my understanding that Wonderwoman's regular book would have been canceled several times by now, but for the fact that DC has to keep it in publication in order to retain the rights to the character.

Her book has always sold above the cancellation line, post-Crisis.

[carabas]

Why would you say that? Just because he doesn't like a particular character, how does that make him close minded?I was going from the erronous supposition that he didn't even give it a go to see if he likes it.

You really think so? Why would that be?Oh, come on.
Bat-mini-series are a dime a dozen and generally don't sell that well these days, even if you put an excellent creative team on it or hype them up a bit.

But Detective Comics, that'll sell well regardles. There's the completionists that don't want gaps in their collections, there's those that would buy a Bat-Woman series regardles, and there's those that don't really follow the news and just buy Detective Comics like they have done for years, only to be surprised by the lack of Batman.

[Captain Jim]

You're right. It's been so long since I discarded the completist mindframe, that I wasn't even thinking along those terms. :redface: