What to read, Crisis to Crisis

[quantum_mechanik]

So I've asked this in both the Superman and Batman thread, and I thought, what the hell, I haven't bothered enough people. Can anyone give me a good rundown of all the DC storylines for everyone, IC to FC? I stopped reading comics just after IC, and I need to catch up. Helphelphelphelphelp.

[Stantheman23]

Get 52 vol 1-4

[quantum_mechanik]

Get 52 vol 1-4

Alrighty. What's next?

[Bakura]

Alrighty. What's next?

Skip Final Crisis, less crying that way.:cool:

[bongoes]

Skip Final Crisis, less crying that way.:cool:

I liked Final Crisis and there are a lot of people who did to. Or at least didn't hate it. I say give it a try. It's confusing but worth a try.

[Peeps]

I liked Final Crisis and there are a lot of people who did to. Or at least didn't hate it. I say give it a try. It's confusing but worth a try.

i think confusing is the understatement of the year. with identity and infinite, i felt i was comfortable enough with just reading the HC versions, not buying any tie-ins (i know, or atleast dont believe there were any tie-ins for IC)

infinite crisis was a very good read, and even though you could tell some things happened off panel (in a different book perhaps) i didnt feel like i was lost for a second.

i bought countdowns for both 52 and FC, and while the FC countdowns seemed out there, i semi followed it.

with FC, it was the biggest waste of money i ever spent on a HC trade. i should have known it wouldnt be good as i didnt particularly care for grants run on xmen.

it is easily the most disjointed limited series on the face of the earth, and even fallen angles was a more joyful read than it

[kamikage]

I have a similar question, 52 deals with the year after Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman take time off correct? That is then followed by One Year Later?

[quantum_mechanik]

I liked Final Crisis and there are a lot of people who did to. Or at least didn't hate it. I say give it a try. It's confusing but worth a try.

I think I'm going to read it--I mean, it's a Crisis. If I don't, I'll have no idea what's going on.

[drinkblatzbeer]

eh...it's not really a "crisis" in the sense that the first and infinite were presented, though monitors were present and part of the story...

overall, however, i am in the camp of definitely give it a read...it's an awesome example of what can be achieved in the context of a major company, doing a major storyline in a very unconventional way...
it makes you think...that alone made it awesome in my book...then again, i can also understand why some people didn't like that aspect, there are a lot of cases myself, which i turn to comics to sort of tune out and just enjoy something simpler...

[Bakura]

I liked Final Crisis and there are a lot of people who did to. Or at least didn't hate it. I say give it a try. It's confusing but worth a try.

I did give it a try, And what did I get? "Sound of Music: The Multiverse Edition" and "Vamps from space!!!!" ROFL

[Bakura]

I think I'm going to read it--I mean, it's a Crisis. If I don't, I'll have no idea what's going on.

Let me sum it up:
Superman sings Darkseid away, Wonder Woman gets real ugly, Mary Marvel becomes the evil verson of a punk rocker from the 80's. And to top it all off the main villian is "Cosmic Dracula".

[Tweedsuitcase]

similar questions. i wanted to start a new thread, but this one is pretty close. I'm a pretty new comic fan, have been reading mostly batman, and only since this year. i know some of the lead-up to most of what's going on in the bat-verse, but have wanted to read identity crisis, inf crisis, and probably 52. can i read these "cold"? or would i be totally lost? and are they recommended reading? thanks for any input.

[Bakura]

similar questions. i wanted to start a new thread, but this one is pretty close. I'm a pretty new comic fan, have been reading mostly batman, and only since this year. i know some of the lead-up to most of what's going on in the bat-verse, but have wanted to read identity crisis, inf crisis, and probably 52. can i read these "cold"? or would i be totally lost? and are they recommended reading? thanks for any input.

Identity Crisis is pretty adult, but very well written, Infinite Crisis is okay and 52 is brilliant.

[carabas]

I mean, it's a Crisis. If I don't, I'll have no idea what's going on.This does not really apply to Final Crisis. It didn't really impact the DCU in any significant way.

Still one of the best events ever though, even if it is overly experimental.

[DidioForever]

I'd recommend I'd read the following to catch up;

Identity Crisis
Green Lantern: Rebirth
Omac Project (Countdown to Infinite Crisis)
JLA: Crisis of Conscience (Countdown to Infinite Crisis)
Infinite Crisis
52 Vols 1-4
Sinestro Corps War Vols 1-2
Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds (On pre-order)

If you want to give Final Crisis a shot I'd recommend trying these out first;

JLA by Grant Morrison Vols 1-3
JLA: Earth 2
Seven Soldiers Vols 1-4
Batman & Son
Batman: The Black Glove
Batman RIP

[DeadXMan]

Avoid Countdown like the plague

[asdlkgh]

I'm starting to get more into the DCU these days and I'm reading FC right now.

I've read the first 3 chapters and I have to say.. I am very confused. It's interesting, but every 3 or 4 pages I have to say to myself "Wait.... what?".

[Bakura]

This does not really apply to Final Crisis. It didn't really impact the DCU in any significant way.

Still one of the best events ever though, even if it is overly experimental.
Actually it's widely regarded as the worst. Zero Hour is more respected. Experimental isn't the word I would choose,

[quantum_mechanik]

Let me sum it up:
Superman sings Darkseid away, Wonder Woman gets real ugly, Mary Marvel becomes the evil verson of a punk rocker from the 80's. And to top it all off the main villian is "Cosmic Dracula".

Hey, Space Dracula's nothing to sneeze at. I went to high school with Space Dracula. "Quantum", he used to say to me, "I just hate the DC Universe. I want to @(%! it up somehow."

So he followed his dream...which is something, I guess.

[drinkblatzbeer]

Actually it's widely regarded as the worst. Zero Hour is more respected. Experimental isn't the word I would choose,

exactly by who other than many internet geeks who don't like anything??

obviously there's gonna be, like everything, a fair share of people who don't like it, but from talking to many people at comic shops, it was a pretty well received story, except for the delays...

[Bevbos]

I'd recommend I'd read the following to catch up;

Identity Crisis
Green Lantern: Rebirth
Omac Project (Countdown to Infinite Crisis)
JLA: Crisis of Conscience (Countdown to Infinite Crisis)
Infinite Crisis
52 Vols 1-4
Sinestro Corps War Vols 1-2
Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds (On pre-order)

If you want to give Final Crisis a shot I'd recommend trying these out first;

JLA by Grant Morrison Vols 1-3
JLA: Earth 2
Seven Soldiers Vols 1-4
Batman & Son
Batman: The Black Glove
Batman RIP

I'd recommend you read all those things anyways, just because they're well written (the only one I haven't read is JLA: Crisis of Conscience). They'll definitely flesh out your knowledge of the contemporary DCU.

I would add, however, that you should add Green Latnern Corps: Recharge to the list, and for your own enjoyment and appreciation of the current event (Blackest Night), I'd add No Fear, To be a Lantern, Revenge of the Lost Lanterns, The Other Side of Green, and Wanted: Hal Jordan. These all come before the Sinestro Corps War and they're all hands-down pure comic book bliss.

[Bakura]

exactly by who?
Most people, on the net, magazines like Wizard. You big time Morisson fans are going to have accept it at some point. LOL


obviously there's gonna be, like everything, a fair share of people who don't like it, but from talking to many people at comic shops, it was a pretty well received story, except for the delays...

So your going by your friends at your local comic shop? Most people other then die hard Morrisson fans hated it.

[dumbstruck]

I think I'm going to read it--I mean, it's a Crisis. If I don't, I'll have no idea what's going on.


Even if you read it, you still won't know what's going on. So you won't be any further ahead. Besides, nothing major really happens. The series has been finished since Jan/Feb, and the rest of the DCU still doesn't really reflect anything that happened in it. It's skippable without getting lost.

[drinkblatzbeer]

Most people, on the net, magazines like Wizard. You big time Morisson fans are going to have accept it at some point. LOL



So your going by your friends at your local comic shop? Most people other then die hard Morrisson fans hated it.

not really a "big time morrison fan"...all star superman, RIP and final crisis are the only things i really have followed him for...loved em all...so-so on his JLA and X-Men stuff...flex mentallo was ok, doom patrol the same...couldn't stand MOST of the 7 soldiers stuff...other than that have pretty much been uninterested in most of his work...
wizard? anyone care what they think? aren't they getting closer and closer to shutting their doors soon? weekly, LiTG had them jettisoning staff, and the last time i looked at an issue, it was half the size of what it once was...
and the net, like i said in another topic, the vocal minority...

shops, actually, and most of these people i don't really know...

on a side note, i think it's funny people think to enjoy something of his, you now have to be a ball-sucker/apologist for him...i guess, maybe the typical backlash for an artist who hits his popularity/acclaim...still funny, that notion, however...

pretty much enjoyed it myself, for the most part, and i usually come to mainstream comics to dumb down a little bit and relax, but for seriously pushing me to understand the boundaries and possibilities in telling a story...delays aside, and for those who haven't read, the hardcover is perfect, a truly satisfying piece of work...

[Bakura]

not really a "big time morrison fan"...all star superman, RIP and final crisis are the only things i really have followed him for.
Then I don't see why you don't understand that largely FC was hated by the comic reading public. In your area that may or may not have been the case.


the hardcover is perfect, a truly satisfying piece of work...
Superman sings Darkseid to death, Marvel Marvel looks like a demonic go-go dancer. Wonder Woman spends half of it with a worthog face. And the end villain is a gaint space vampire.

[quantum_mechanik]

I feel like I've stirred the hornets nest a bit here. I'l tell you--I'm planning on reading FC, just because it's what happened and it's there. So I've got from 52 to FC to go on.

[Bakura]

I feel like I've stirred the hornets nest a bit here. I'l tell you--I'm planning on reading FC, just because it's what happened and it's there. So I've got from 52 to FC to go on.

In that case, also check out, Countdown, Bloodlines, Armageddon 2001, Millenium, Knightsend.

If you ever head over to Marvel, you seem like the kind of guy who would love Brand New Day, The Clone Saga, X-Cutioners Song and Onslaught Reborn.

[StormWatch]

If you want the launching pad for most of what is going on read Crisis On Infinite Earths. If you are new to the DC Universe and are talking about reading Infinite Crisis and Identity Crisis and all that huff start where DC destroyed the whole Multiverse before. A fantastic adventure with all the characters from the DCU and the death of billions and billions and billions of people and heroes. Good Stuff!:evilsmile:

[drinkblatzbeer]

Then I don't see why you don't understand that largely FC was hated by the comic reading public. In your area that may or may not have been the case.


Superman sings Darkseid to death, Marvel Marvel looks like a demonic go-go dancer. Wonder Woman spends half of it with a worthog face. And the end villain is a gaint space vampire.

awesome...so we're gonna argue opinions all day...this should get us far...

[Bakura]

awesome...so we're gonna argue opinions all day...this should get us far...

Not an opinon, and if so one shared byt he majority of comic readers, and I listed what happens in it as well.

[Buried Alien]

Not an opinon.

Not to get pedantic about it, but even the most widely held opinion is still an opinion. A fact operates beyond an entirely different threshold.

As for FINAL CRISIS, I enjoyed it much better collected rather than as single issues released months apart. The origin of the Monitors is *still* confusing as all hell, and its lack of impact on the DCU as a whole (considering that it's a Crisis) is perplexing, but taken on its own terms, it was an intriguing read...just not the same kind of Crisis that Marv Wolfman and Geoff Johns delivered.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[quantum_mechanik]

OK, I'll attempt a reconciliation.

Screw Morrison. I'm gonna knock him in the face and testicles simultaneously when I see him. It'll be violent, embarassing, and I'll say mean things about his work. Then I'll punch his kids. Lo, he hath wrought vengeance unto the tenth generation (I have a time machine) for writing this book.

But also, good for him. I'm going to buy him a cake of success for writing such a wonderful story. He's a genius, a visionary. I'm going to go back (I have a time machine) and give him a bunch of candy on his 10th birthday, as a reward for writing such a great story. Candy's worth more when you're a kid and can't get it yourself...

Whichever side you're on, pick whatever interpretation you want. I'm gonna read it. I promise I won't neccessarily like it.

[Bakura]

As for FINAL CRISIS, I enjoyed it much better collected rather than as single issues released months apart. The origin of the Monitors is *still* confusing as all hell, and its lack of impact on the DCU as a whole (considering that it's a Crisis) is perplexing.

It's a disjointed mess, and the reason it hasn't had a wider impact is most likely due to the fact that it was so unpopular and DC is sweeping it under the proverbial rug.

[Bakura]

OK, I'll attempt a reconciliation.

Whichever side you're on, pick whatever interpretation you want. I'm gonna read it. I promise I won't neccessarily like it.

Okay it's not meant to be a slight against Morrissons entire career. I really wish his fans would stop being so defensive. If your a true fan then you should be able to admit when he writes something bad. If FC had been written by anyone else then the Morrisson fans would not be defending it so strongly.

Superman defeats Darkseid by singing and then goes on to fight a giant space vampire. No I am not kidding. Does this sound interesting to you?

[Buried Alien]

It's a disjointed mess, and the reason it hasn't had a wider impact is most likely due to the fact that it was so unpopular and DC is sweeping it under the proverbial rug.

I think in a shared universe scenario, if you've got an event that big, you should retain or reflect its aftermath effects even if the event itself wasn't so well-received.

I guess the total legacy of FINAL CRISIS will be the "deaths" of Batman and the Martian Manhunter and the return of Barry Allen (and maybe the "death" of Darkseid, although who knows where that's going to go). FINAL CRISIS apparently completely reworked the entire Fourth World mythology (so that it's now the Fifth World with Newer Gods), but DC is historically gunshy about doing much with the Fourth World after they shake it up.

And I guess that's my gripe with the way DC has handled its events in recent years: the events themselves are a mixed bag, but DC doesn't do the aftermath well at all.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Buried Alien]

Superman defeats Darkseid by singing and then goes on to fight a giant space vampire. No I am not kidding. Does this sound interesting to you?

Actually, I have no problem with the concept. It's just weird enough to be interesting.

But the execution left quite a bit to be desired. I couldn't quite enjoy it as much as I should have for amorphous and often sloppy execution.

I had high hopes for Mandrakk being a great villain who would deliver a stunning climax to the story, but the ending was strangely static. A group of Multiversal Supermen, angels from Heaven, superpowered funny animals, and Green Lanterns standing in a line and blasting Mandrakk to oblivion in pretty much one shot.

Conceptually, this could have been something exciting, but Morrison somehow failed to arrange this into a compelling battle scene. It was a strangely static climax.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Bakura]

I think in a shared universe scenario, if you've got an event that big, you should retain or reflect its aftermath effects even if the event itself wasn't so well-received.
Actually I prefer what they are doing, recognizing bad work and keeping it from polluting the other comics. It's called damage control.


I guess the total legacy of FINAL CRISIS will be the "deaths" of Batman and the Martian Manhunter and the return of Barry Allen.

Actually as far as the "deaths" and return of Barry Allen that seems mroe closely tied to "Rebirth" and "Blackest Night" now. On the new GL cartoon movie there is a feature where they talk about Barry Allens return and the "deaths" and FC isn't even mentioned.

[drinkblatzbeer]

Okay it's not meant to be a slight against Morrissons entire career. I really wish his fans would stop being so defensive. If your a true fan then you should be able to admit when he writes something bad. If FC had been written by anyone else then the Morrisson fans would not be defending it so strongly.



so what you're saying is no one should like this story because you don't like this story...

again, should fandom of a creator decide whether you like a story or not?

your generalizing is ridiculous...

[Bakura]

so what you're saying is no one should like this story because you don't like this story...

again, should fandom of a creator decide whether you like a story or not?

your generalizing is ridiculous...

No I'm saying the general reception has been very poor for FC.

And it's the die hard Morrisson fans who seem unable to admit when he writes a bad story.

[Buried Alien]

No I'm saying the general reception has been very poor for FC.


I think the reception is more "mixed" than outright poor.

Some people hated it, and some people loved it. Many other people thought it had some interesting ideas, but wasn't done very well.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Adam C]

I think I'm going to read it--I mean, it's a Crisis. If I don't, I'll have no idea what's going on.

As Carabas said, it doesn't really affect the wider DCU all that much. And in any case I think it's a poor reason to read a story. That logic has driven many readers to stick with stories they ultimately found dissatisfying (like Countdown which truly was pointless and didn't even properly lead into the story it was supposed to lead into). I think that in the age of Wikipedia and message board spoilers it is ultimately unnecessary.

Now if you want to read Final Crisis because you feel it might interest you as a story and are willing to accept an "event" that doesn't follow the typical logic of events, but rather Morrison's choice themes and treats superheroics more as mytho-poetic symbolism rather than drama you would find it satisfying.

[Bakura]

I think the reception is more "mixed" than outright poor.
I think the majority opinion is that it was outright poor.

[Bakura]

Now if you want to read Final Crisis because you feel it might interest you as a story and are willing to accept an "event" that doesn't follow the typical logic of events.

Such as singing the villain to defeat and fighting a giant space vampire?

[Thok]

Final Crisis works by having a "channel-surfing" technique of cutting back and forth between big events and cutting out exposition. This would work better if Morrison had a clearer idea of what the big events were and focused on them rather than some of the stuff he included. (Anything involving the Super Young Team could have been excised from Final Crisis without significantly affecting the main plot, and arguably anything involving the banished Monitor.)

One of the main issues is that Final Crisis had two stories going on: one a fairly traditional story of Darkseid taking over the world and one a meta story about how editors/writers parasitically feed on their works. The second story arguably didn't add anything to the first story and was seemingly much weaker and much less refined than the first story (and suffers from primarily focusing on only the DC Universe and from the implicit contradiction that Grant Morrison was parasitically telling a meta story about how writers/editors parasitically feed on their works.)

[Buried Alien]

I think the majority opinion is that it was outright poor.

We don't know that for sure. Complaints are always louder than accolades. If it were really that one-sided, we wouldn't have had months and months of sometimes acrimonious discussion.

Nobody rushes forth to defend John Byrne's GENESIS or Marv Wolfman's WAR OF THE GODS, after all.

Speaking of Wolfman, I wonder what his thought are about how Grant Morrison has expanded on the mythology of the Monitors. Morrison did take the whole Monitor concept way, way beyond what Wolfman originally intended back in the 1980s.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[dumbstruck]

We don't know that for sure. Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


However, I do find it interesting that many of FC stalward defenders abruptly changed their opinions when the last issue came out.

[Bakura]

We don't know that for sure. Complaints are always louder than accolades.

I think you don't want to know, and that is not true take Blackest Night, almost everyone is raving about how good it is.

[Bakura]

However, I do find it interesting that many of FC stalward defenders abruptly changed their opinions when the last issue came out.

That would be where he sang Darkseid to defeat and fought Cosmic Dracula.:rolleyes:

[Karl O'Neill]

Final crisis is flawed. But a masterstroke of genius on the behalf of grant morrison. I am still finding new meanings in some of the issues he done. I want more annotations.:cool: :smile:

The fake out of the killing of the hawks pissed me off.:mad:

[Buried Alien]

However, I do find it interesting that many of FC stalward defenders abruptly changed their opinions when the last issue came out.

That's because the ending WAS disappointing. It was progressing reasonably well until the Judge of All Evil assembled all those Supermen, angels, funny animals, and GLs and they just blasted Mandrakk in a single panel.

That was terrible...extremely anticlimatic for all that buildup.


I think you don't want to know, and that is not true take Blackest Night, almost everyone is raving about how good it is.

One issue has been released; we'll have a clearer assessment after it's done. INFINITE CRISIS and FINAL CRISIS were both eagerly anticipated and were reasonably well-received after their first issues, but gradually lost people.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Buried Alien]

That would be where he sang Darkseid to defeat and fought Cosmic Dracula.:rolleyes:

You've already made it abundantly clear that you didn't care for this concept, and that's fine. Let's move the discussion beyond reiterating this.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Bakura]

Final crisis is flawed.
Thats one word for it. Disjointed would be another good word for it.


One issue has been released; we'll have a clearer assessment after it's done.

Actually they lost quite abit of readers with FC #1.


That's because the ending WAS disappointing.
So was the rest of the story.

But the ending you refer to would be where Superman sang Darkseid to death and fought Cosmic Dracula.

[dumbstruck]

Final crisis is flawed. A masterstroke of
"the fake out".


Fixed.

(ten characters)

[dumbstruck]

But the ending you refer to would be where Superman sang Darkseid to death and fought Cosmic Dracula.

I don't know.....sometimes it feels like death listening to certain singers.


It was a dumb ending though.

[Adam C]

Such as singing the villain to defeat and fighting a giant space vampire?

Except Darkseid was not defeated through singing. He was defeated through a series of actions that progressively and systematically weakened his hold on the universe that involved several heroes with Superman capping it off at the end. It was part of the story telling methodology that Morrison followed through out the story. Rather than giving a certain number of characters explicit "lead" status in the story they're all given small, but interdependent parts that contribute to the progression of the story as a whole. Like organs in a body and the superheroes are the T-Cells of the Universe, a call back to The Invisibles where the universe is treated as a gestating organism and Barbelith tries to rally us against it. Or The Filth where the hand tries to fight against things that threaten the integrity of mundane reality.

For another, how is a giant space vampire any worst as a villain than alternate reality versions of Superboy and Lex Luthor? Or an evil space god? Or little green men with bumpy chins and big ears? Superhero comics are fundamentally ridiculous things, and what I like is how Morrison embraces that and the logic that comes with it. So why not a space vampire? What does the space vampire even do in the story?



One of the main issues is that Final Crisis had two stories going on: one a fairly traditional story of Darkseid taking over the world and one a meta story about how editors/writers parasitically feed on their works. The second story arguably didn't add anything to the first story and was seemingly much weaker and much less refined than the first story (and suffers from primarily focusing on only the DC Universe and from the implicit contradiction that Grant Morrison was parasitically telling a meta story about how writers/editors parasitically feed on their works.)

The problem is that the second story really can't be separated from the first. Darkseid taking over the world is a part of Morrison's commentary on how superhero comics are handled by subjecting the DCU to an all-controlling presence who systematic abuses its inhabitants for his own amusement and reduces prominent female characters to dolls with no life of their own or as creepy, sexualized fantasies. And as a counter-point, the Vampire monitor is brought in to make explicit the parasitism behind actions like Darkseid's, or those of the editors and fanatic comic readers who demand more and more of the story, twisting it and contorting it to obtain a sort of "fix" from it even though the story really does not fulfill.

But just as the second story cannot be separated from the first, so too can you not separate either of them from the third, or to say there's a formal narrative going on (the superhero story) and the comments on comics are one of the structural and thematic concerns underlying it. The other are Morrison's ideas about freedom, domination, imagination, and fighting the darkness within. Everything he does with Darkseid is a call back to what he's done in The Invisibles, The Filth, Seaguy, JLA, New X-Men and other comics he has written. Darkseid is the Archons of the Outer Church, Spartacus Hughes/The Hand, Mickey Eye, John Sublime, Maggeddon, etc. He's the epitome of totalitarian control but also the bad impulses that lurk within all of us and drag us down, limiting our possibilities. (It's why so many Morrison stories his villains seek control by degrading the protagonists.)

He does what Satan does in Christianity, serve as a mythological figure that stands in for our very weaknesses. The superheroes are very strengths. (Batman our intellect, the Flashes our, Nix Uotan , Superman our very best qualities or our "Dreamself" as Morrison described him in the interviews for All Star Superman. The DCU universe being the very body or mind these things are fought on, while effectively showing a planet ravaged and traumatized by an extra-planetary invasion as never seen before in a comic. In fact Final Crisis does follow the stages of a death and birth cycle, and as much as its about superheroes fighting the personification of evil. And the cosmic vampire is there to also bring home what lurks again behind Darkseid, the impulse towards oblivion that ultimately lurks behind the insatiable will to power that sends millions to die in wars or genocides or drives us to self-destructive behaviours when we give into our anger or loathing. And thus Morrison elaborates on an element of themes that he didn't separately identify before. (Even if his way with dealing with it was kind of ropey.)



I guess the total legacy of FINAL CRISIS will be the "deaths" of Batman and the Martian Manhunter and the return of Barry Allen (and maybe the "death" of Darkseid, although who knows where that's going to go).

So with the above said, I guess one of the reasons (though by no means the only) for my differing reaction to FC from its critics is that fans usually look for the "payoff" in these stories, some big change in the status-quo. The problem is that all of these changes are ultimately meaningless and of dubious value. House of M arguably closed off more storytelling possibilities than it created and was a problematic story in itself. Secret Invasion may have had the best aftermath, but it was achieved through following shoddy narrative logic in a story that was largely a series of empty fight scenes and interspersed with some overwrought drama.

On the other hand Final Crisis did something else. It did the simplest trick of telling a story with the primary concern being meaningfully explicating and fulfilling themes within the story, which even fluff like the Harry Potter books manage to do well enough, but often becomes an uphill battle in the world of superhero comics with all the commercial and editorial demands imposing on it. So that's why I liked it, because I was sympatico with the logic of the story and the themes it dealt with it and felt that it fulfilled those criteria.

[Adam C]

The fake out of the killing of the hawks pissed me off.:mad:

Riding off of my recent lengthy post, anyone find it telling that a much more dignified ending for the current incarnation of the Hawks was passed over (by the editorial based on McDuffie's account of his JLA tenure) in favour of a brutal shock death in the opener of yet another crossover event?

[drinkblatzbeer]

Such as singing the villain to defeat and fighting a giant space vampire?

hey, that's awesome, post that a 12th time...

[Karl O'Neill]

No.

Geoff loves the characters and has grand plans for them.

he wrote 25 issues of hawkman(revamped it) and wrote hawkman alot in JSA.

I hope my point doesn't seem like a cop out but I believe he clearly loves the characters and DID NOT USE THEM JUST FOR SHOCK VALUE.

They will be back stronger.

[Karl O'Neill]

That would be where he sang Darkseid to defeat and fought Cosmic Dracula.:rolleyes:

Apples and oranges.

Some people loves prime tossing the Anti-montior into space at the end of the sinestro corps war.

some didn't.

what can the writer do to change your mind?

[Thok]

But just as the second story cannot be separated from the first, so too can you not separate either of them from the third, or to say there's a formal narrative going on (the superhero story) and the comments on comics are one of the structural and thematic concerns underlying it.

Sure you can. You can simply ignore the formal narrative or accept it as a genre conventions to play with. Not every comic book needs to include a discussion on the merits and structure of a comic book. Not everybody accepts Morrison's views about the inherent darkness within us or the menace of totalitarian control and needs to read about it in a big event.

There's nothing wrong about simply writing a story about how Darkseid takes controls of the DCU, without trying to force your philosophical viewpoint into the story.

(If I was cleverer, I'd try to argue that Morrison's obsession with inner darkness and general mythology is an expression of his inner darkness, and it distracts him from world building and trying to construct new comic ideas. HE's frequently focusing on one general theme to the neglect of other possibilities.)

[carabas]

Actually they lost quite abit of readers with FC #1.They lost about the same percentage of readers as pretty much every single other series out there, event or otherwise.

[Bakura]

They lost about the same percentage of readers as pretty much every single other series out there, event or otherwise.

Prove this plz.

[Adam C]

However, I do find it interesting that many of FC stalward defenders abruptly changed their opinions when the last issue came out.

*Shrugs* I didn't see it myself and I was participating in most discussions on the comic at CBR. In fact after the first issue came out those


No.

Geoff loves the characters and has grand plans for them.

he wrote 25 issues of hawkman(revamped it) and wrote hawkman alot in JSA.

I hope my point doesn't seem like a cop out but I believe he clearly loves the characters and DID NOT USE THEM JUST FOR SHOCK VALUE.

Possibly, though I was also referring to the DC editorial in my statement. I mean Morrison gives them a heroic death appropriately placed towards the end of the comic when heroism is on the uptick, touches on both on the Hawks' as reincarnated lovers and the themes of rebirth welling up at that point in the story. McDuffie gets told the Hawks are dead, and then gets told they aren't.

And they show up in Blackest Night #1 only to get their hearts torn out by zombie versions of the Dibneys, one of whom died one of the more prominent and controversial shock deaths of comics in recent years. Whatever Johns' past with the Hawks it's something I can't help but look askew at in light of FC and the way a lot superhero comics seem to operate.


Apples and oranges.

Some people loves prime tossing the Anti-montior into space at the end of the sinestro corps war.

some didn't.

what can the writer do to change your mind?

I think it's also about audience sensibilities and knowing what to expect of a writer's work. For example I'm not only a huge Morrison fan, but I find his work is often shot through with his humour and a sense for the absurd. I showed a friend All Star Superman and she just couldn't wrap her head around it because the dialogue was so absurd to her it. It seemed almost a joke. I couldn't help but sense she was right, but that's why I liked it. The playful whimsy that Morrison integrates into the story. It's also why I liked Mamoru Oshii's The Red Spectacles, a film that confuses most fans who come from his anime work, because it juxtaposes Looney Tunes absurdity alongside noir drama to create a dream-like setting.

[Bakura]

Apples and oranges.

Some people loves prime tossing the Anti-montior into space at the end of the sinestro corps war.

some didn't.

what can the writer do to change your mind?

You equate singing a villain to defeat and fighting Cosmic Dracula to Superboy Prime, a PC Kryptionian throwing a severly weakend and injuerd Anti-Monitor into space.

If it wasn't Morrisson behind FC you would be on my side, your defending the writer not the work itself.

[woodsman816]

You equate singing a villain to defeat and fighting Cosmic Dracula to Superboy Prime, a PC Kryptionian throwing a severly weakend and injuerd Anti-Monitor into space.

If it wasn't Morrisson behind FC you would be on my side, your defending the writer not the work itself.

I have to agree with original poster here, nothing too ridiculous [remember its a comic book people] about the superman singing thing compared to some other things I've seen in comics. I will say that it was a pretty low key way to end off such a "blockbuster event". Had this transpired in say doom patrol or a smaller scale series [I seem to remember something along the lines oft his happening in sandman if i recall correctly] would you be as upset?

[quantum_mechanik]

Yeah, hey, sucks, awesome, something....

So about that list of storylines...

[quantum_mechanik]

In that case, also check out, Countdown, Bloodlines, Armageddon 2001, Millenium, Knightsend.

If you ever head over to Marvel, you seem like the kind of guy who would love Brand New Day, The Clone Saga, X-Cutioners Song and Onslaught Reborn.

I've tried to get into Marvel, but even more than DC I think it's not something you can jump into just anywhere. If you can, PLEASE let me know how because I do feel like I'm missing out on a lot of things.

[Adam C]

There's nothing wrong about simply writing a story about how Darkseid takes controls of the DCU, without trying to force your philosophical viewpoint into the story.

I'm curious about the logic at work here. Not only "trying to force your philosophical viewpoint into the story" but "Not every comic needs to include a discussion on the merits and structure of a comic book." No, but not every comic does include a discussion on the structure of narrative. In fact the vast majority don't, particularly superhero comics. So this doesn't tell me anything about the relative merits of the story and one could argue that Morrison actually brings something new to the table in doing so.

Moreover, by what reason does he try to force his philosophical viewpoint into the story? As I explained earlier I think his philosophical viewpoint is pretty well integrated in the story. It works as both a simple story of good vs. evil, freedom of though vs domination and control, freedom of storytelling vs. the constrictions of commodity,...all it naturally springs out of Morrison's overarching concerns as a writer with the issue of the imagination and the role in plays in the development of the self (as well as the lack thereof). And its coming from a man who's deeply concerned with imagination and symbols and spent much of his life as a magician whose magic was about explicitly interacting with those symbols.


(If I was cleverer, I'd try to argue that Morrison's obsession with inner darkness and general mythology is an expression of his inner darkness, and it distracts him from world building and trying to construct new comic ideas. HE's frequently focusing on one general theme to the neglect of other possibilities.)

In what way? In his The Invisibles he constructed his own integrated mythology out of the detritus of 20th century pop and fringe culture. In The Filth he created a very different setting still to deal with the idea of wrestling with the negative aspects of reality, populated with extra-dimensional garbage men, Communist monkey assassins, nano-bots, and body hopping personalities. He created a host of new villains for JLA or refurbished a great deal of disused old ones, and positioned the DCU as a successor to the Fourth World. In New X-Men he took mutation in the Marvel Universe to its logical conclusion and tried to treat them as an ethnic minority grappling with their own cultural struggles while introducing a number of new characters and situations.

He even did some of this in Final Crisis like trying to turn Checkmate into a sort of "psychedelic Man From U.N.C.L.E. agency, creating Kirby Earth, and setting the ground for what he saw could be a Mister Miracle and the Super Young Team mini. So how is he neglecting world building? He's probably one of the more prodigenously imaginative writers in superhero comics in terms of pure conceptualization.

Though he would probably agree that his pet themes are a reflection of his own inner darkness and that's why he returns to them, because we never stop wrestling with it. (In fact he nearly said so outright in The Invisibles by saying that "the initiation never ends.")

[woodsman816]

I've tried to get into Marvel, but even more than DC I think it's not something you can jump into just anywhere. If you can, PLEASE let me know how because I do feel like I'm missing out on a lot of things.

I would say that a good jumping on point for crisis stuff would be Identity crisis as its a pretty self contained book that serves as a good intro to some 2nd tier heroes and more importantly establishes the relationships between the heroes/villains and the group dynamics for some heavy hitters.

For marvel i can't really say much for any ongoings but if you want a really good solid silver age romp i'd grab a copy of spiderman blue and then the trades [death of gwen stacy/ captain stacy]. Those were good books i enjoyed.

EDIT:
Looks like i misunderstood your question and it seems you have read IC. Pick up a copy [ I think its available in a trade] of the countdown special with the blue beetle death scene. Also their was an arc that ran across action? and wonder woman and ended this loop with ww fighting a max lord controlled superman. ummm.... GL rebirth is probably a big must have along with Sinestro corps war. As for Infinite Crisis i would highly reccomend picking that up and a Teen titans issue that covered the fight between superboy prime and conner. There was also an arc that had the crazed doctor light fighting ALL the titans that took place right after Identity Crisis. There was also an arc after that that crossed over between outsiders and Titans that did some cleanup on the Identity crisis/luthor angle. It was meh but it does set up some friction in the conner kent superboy and he's one of my favorites so its worth a look.

[Paul Newell]

Okay it's not meant to be a slight against Morrissons entire career. I really wish his fans would stop being so defensive. If your a true fan then you should be able to admit when he writes something bad. If FC had been written by anyone else then the Morrisson fans would not be defending it so strongly.

Superman defeats Darkseid by singing and then goes on to fight a giant space vampire. No I am not kidding. Does this sound interesting to you?
I realy wish you would stop using sweeping generalisations and than defend your position by calling anyone who doesn't follow your position as some sort of "Morrison-Lover". I've seen you call a few people that who aren't actually "Morrison lovers". It's a nice little position to take so you can write off anyone's opinion you disagree with, but a dishonest tactic and patently false....And one, as moderator, I don't like.

If you have issue with Final Crisis, then have it with the work, not the other posters.

[Adam C]

Yeah, hey, sucks, awesome, something....

So about that list of storylines...

I'm not sure if I can help you there because you're seeking a list of stories to understand the recent history of DC comics. I can't really do that since I don't follow DC history. The best I can do is talk about why I liked a particular story and why I think it's worth reading. The main stories that up sum the major events are Identity Crisis, Infinite Crisis, Geoff Johns' Rebirth and Sinestro Corps stories for Green Lantern, FC for the return of Barry Allen and the Death of Batman though Batman RIP arguably feeds into that. And I suppose 52 for the return of the Multiverse and some change overs in character stories.

However, you can also find this information on various online Wikis and speaking for myself, some of these stories simply aren't worth reading. Identity Crisis is just a really badly written story taken as itself, whatever the aftershocks it leaves. Which I also think are of dubious value.

That said before you check out Countdown you may want to check out Linkara's reviews of the series (http://www.thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/linkara/at4w). They're pretty darn funny, explain what happens, and also on the money about why the story is quite bad and I only followed the online spoilers. (And Countdown arguably has even less after effects than Final Crisis.)


You equate singing a villain to defeat and fighting Cosmic Dracula to Superboy Prime, a PC Kryptionian throwing a severly weakend and injuerd Anti-Monitor into space.

Sure why not? Why should I take a fictional space alien throwing a fictional space god into space anymore seriously than a fictional space alien beating a fictional space god by singing? Said fictional space aliens were rocketed to Earth from a planet that exploded and were red and blue tights. One Space god dresses in clunky armour and the other wears a MAN-SKIRT.

However, Superboy Prime flinging the Anti-Monitor into space was just another comic-book fight to me. Whereas Superman singing to counteract Darkseid's vibrational frequency gets me on a conceptual level as a music geek. I can totally get behind the idea of dispelling an evil god by singing your favourite song to counteract it because I do that all the time.

[Thok]

Moreover, by what reason does he try to force his philosophical viewpoint into the story? As I explained earlier I think his philosophical viewpoint is pretty well integrated in the story. It works as both a simple story of good vs. evil, freedom of though vs domination and control, freedom of storytelling vs. the constrictions of commodity,...all it naturally springs out of Morrison's overarching concerns as a writer with the issue of the imagination and the role in plays in the development of the self (as well as the lack thereof). And its coming from a man who's deeply concerned with imagination and symbols and spent much of his life as a magician whose magic was about explicitly interacting with those symbols.

I think this is a place where we need to agree to disagree, but as I said, I think the Darkseid takes over the Earth by itself was a solid story, and the whole Monitors second story doesn't complement or supplement it well and I think Morrison need to either excise the second story or rework it so it fit in more organically. I feel like he never actually considered whether the second story was working and whether it was appropriate for what he had written.

(I also think Superman Beyond is philosophical navel gazing, especially because it self-limits itself to primarily the DCU by establishing Superman as the primary source of stories; there are clearly works of fiction that predate Superman and also works that have very little influence from Superman; take Hercules as one of the former, and something like Pride and Prejudice as something of the latter. I don't mind him having those ideas, but I feel like there were better places to approach them that would make his discussion of those ideas more approachable. Or as Omar Kinadru roughly said when I mentioned this on the CSBG blog "Morrison probably should write a treatise about his views on comics.")


In what way?

What world-building you've mentioned is (in my opinion) often very shallow and doesn't leave much room for future expansion. (I could be wrong; and things like the Invisibles [which I haven't read] and We3 are likely counterexamples.)

But for example, I find SYT and the Great Ten to be a fairly shallow collection of stereotypical traits that have been thrown together with little personality except for broad strokes like "I'm rich." (There have been stories involving the Great Ten that have built individual members beyond that; so far the SYT has been shown to be one note characters with personalities like "I like booze" and "I'm a rich Gary-Sue.")

I guess what I'm saying is that I'd rather see fundamentally new characters and ideas rather than a repacking of a collection of various bits of pop culture and his personal philosophy in a relatively standard way. Obviously, part of this is my fairly strong dislike for his personal philosophy, as you probably can tell. I'm not a fan of New Age-ish ideas (I tend to come from a more rationalist viewpoint.)

[Ilash]

Oh yay, another "Final Crisis Sucks" thread!

Well, count me as someoned who pretty much loved it. Yes, it could have used a more consistent artistic vision and yes, sometimes the story does get a bit too experimental for its own good but a big crossover event that was as interesting and experimental as FC could hardly be called the "worst crossover ever".

Frankly, it's much better than the go-nowhere Infinite Crisis and the well written but off-puting Identity Crisis, not to mention all those crappy 90s events. And I personally couldn't care less if it didn't affect the rest of the DCU because I found it to be a great read in its own right.

Though it really should be read in one sitting with Superman Beyond.

[Bakura]

Okay, one thing needs to be cleared up

Do I think Finial Crisis is a disjointed acid trip of a comic that has an ending thats about as absurd as they come? I.E "Singing Darksied into defeat and fighting Cosmic Dracula"

Yes, I don't think even he had a clear direction of how he wanted things to go.

Do I hate Morrisson or all of his work?

No, I liked allot of things about his original JLA run and esepcially 52. And Cassandra Nova is one of the best new characters X-men has had.

I think Morisson's style works better in a Vertigo type setting or he would be great at writing a Dr Fate or Spectre comic.

[woodsman816]

So back to helping the thread creator what other arcs between Identity crisis and now help would one have to read to get up to speed on the dcu going into blackest night?

[Bakura]

So back to helping the thread creator what other arcs between Identity crisis and now help would one have to read to get up to speed on the dcu going into blackest night?

Basically the trades of the current GL and GL corps titles will do it. From Rebirth and Recharge onward.

[Adam C]

So back to helping the thread creator what other arcs between Identity crisis and now help would one have to read to get up to speed on the dcu going into blackest night?

I dunno. I think all the bases have been covered (namely by this guy (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=9306190&postcount=15)). Maybe Aquaman #50 where the original Aquaman died, though at that point he had been turned into something else though that's covered in 52. (Though whether that drags someone into reading large chunks of that series I don't know.) Wikipedia's entry on Blackest Night (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackest_Night#Green_Lantern_.2342) sketches out some of the issues containing key events pertaining to Blackest night in the current Green Lantern comics though this gives a more comprehensive listing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackest_Night#Prelude_to_Blackest_Night) in terms of collected storylines thus far.

Edit: I guess I owe Bakura a Coke.

[Bakura]

The reason I suggest he skip FC and Countdown is out of compassion. Why let someone else make the mistakes I did?

[Adam C]

The reason I suggest he skip FC and Countdown is out of compassion. Why let someone else make the mistakes I did?

Well sure, and even though I disagree on FC arguably the only books you need to read for the set-up are Sinestro Corps war and the Green Lantern stories leading up to it. It's enough to know that Batman, Aquaman, the Dibnys, and Martian Manhunter are dead. (Though the first issue probably already establishes that.)

[Bakura]

Well sure, and even though I disagree on FC arguably the only books you need to read for the set-up are Sinestro Corps war and the Green Lantern stories leading up to it. It's enough to know that Batman, Aquaman, the Dibnys, and Martian Manhunter are dead. (Though the first issue probably already establishes that.)

Turth be told we may wish to spare him Identity Crisis and what happens to Sue....:frown:

[drinkblatzbeer]

for the most part, DCU #0, Blackest Night #0 and the two GL titles almost from #1 each-up...

i started with sinestro corps war, then kept up with regular GL...the rest i've picked up from wikipedia and message board discussions...
it's a pretty simple premise...

[Buried Alien]

for the most part, DCU #0, Blackest Night #0 and the two GL titles almost from #1 each-up...

i started with sinestro corps war, then kept up with regular GL...the rest i've picked up from wikipedia and message board discussions...
it's a pretty simple premise...

The Internet really has changed the way we read and the writers write comics. In the pre-Internet era, I think the better writers were more conscientious about working the details to make it all hang together. There's a somewhat blase' attitude these days toward attention to detail that might be the byproduct of working in the Internet age.

Bured Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Bakura]

The Internet really has changed the way we read and the writers write comics. In the pre-Internet era, I think the better writers were more conscientious about working the details to make it all hang together. There's a somewhat blase' attitude these days toward attention to detail that might be the byproduct of working in the Internet age.

Bured Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Thats whats great about Blackest Night. I agree with you Johns does exhibit those qualities.

[carabas]

So back to helping the thread creator what other arcs between Identity crisis and now help would one have to read to get up to speed on the dcu going into blackest night?
Really, I think he'd be fine just reading all of Green Lantern and Green Lantern Corps.
The Superman and Batman and such tie-in minis are probably going to be completely missable anyway.

[Adam C]

Turth be told we may wish to spare him Identity Crisis and what happens to Sue....:frown:

Or the just appalling bad writing (by any standard) that afflicts the series.

[dupersuper]

I think I'm going to read it--I mean, it's a Crisis. If I don't, I'll have no idea what's going on.

I'm as completist as any one, but that's just a silly statement. When I was 11 or 12, just before I got hooked into following comics weekly, I had the usual random assortment of comics any kid has. A little pile of Superman, a few Spiderman and Batman, a couple Wonder Woman and Justice League, Invasion #3, a Frank Miller Daredevil, an Avengers annual...whatever I'd picked up while out shopping with my parents. I think I had Crisis #11 and The Last Days of the Justice Society. I followed them all fine. I realize they're not as good at including those handy asterisk boxes as they were back in the late 80's/early 90's, but are you really that unable to fill in the gaps by inferring from context until you dig up the back issues or tpb's you want?