SEVEN SOLDIERS: Speculation & Spoilers

[Lex]

This thread is to compile various information about Grant Morrison's Seven Soldiers project.

Where to find info:
Newsarama Article (http://newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15990)
PopImage (page 7 of 8-part interview) (http://www.popimage.com/content/grant20047.html) (warning: some mature language)
Artists Article from Newsarama with Covers (http://newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=21568)
DC Horizon #21 (December '04 Issue)

What is it?
Morrison defines it as the first "Mega-series." It's 30 issues. Seven seperate 4 issue mini-series with two extra-sized bookends.

Morrison: "The idea for this kind of huge ensemble, Robert Altman approach came first, as a development of the kind of long-range connected narratives I'd been experimenting with on The Invisibles and New X-Men in particular. Once I had the seven minis worked out, it occurred to me that DC owned the name Seven Soldiers of Victory and that Seven Soldiers would make a perfect overall title for this project, so that's how it emerged."

Release Dates

Seven Soldiers #0 - Feb. 23
Shining Knight #1 - March 9
Guardian #1 - March 23
Zatanna #1 - April 6
Klarion #1 - April 20
SK #2 - May 4
Gaudian #2 - May 18
Mr. Miracle #1 - Sept.
Frankenstein #1 - Nov.
Bulleteer #1 - Nov.

What's it about?

Info from Comics Continuum:
A devastating global threat is on its way -- one never imagined nor prepared for. It consumes entire civilizations and leaves behind only ruins. It razed Camelot and bombed the Rama kingdoms back to dirt. It strip-mines and enslaves whole cultures. Its hunger is unstoppable; its origins, unspeakable. Now this devouring empire of cruelty-without-limits has set its sights on the treasures of the 21st century.

Like a plague of locusts, the terrifying Sheeda are returning to harvest the Earth. All that stands between our world and these destroyers are the mysterious "Seven Soldiers" of legend. Seven men and women with extraordinary abilities and big problems must lay their lives on the line for the future of humankind. Seven reluctant champions must arise and somehow work together to save the world...without ever meeting one another. How? Where? Who? There¹s only one way to find out.

In an ambitious new storytelling venture, writer Grant Morrison and a group of top artists combine their talents to redefine the super-hero concept for a new century. Entertainers, losers, victims, exiles, wannabes...the stars of Seven Soldiers are a long way from anyone's ideal of a traditional costumed hero. But they just may be our only chance of survival.

Who lives? Who dies? Who washes the dishes? Who betrays humankind to its once and future Enemy? Get the answers to these questions and many more in seven hard-hitting, fresh and wildly imaginative miniseries featuring Klarion, Mister Miracle, Frankenstein, Zatanna, The Guardian, Bulleteer and Shining Knight.

The Seven Soldiers saga comprises seven 4-issue miniseries and two bookend Specials -- all which may be read independently but combine to tell a colossal 30-part tale of death, betrayal, failure, joy, loss, romance, triumph and redemption. As a new generation of super-heroes grapples with a harsher, weirder world, Morrison combines dazzling super-hero action and serial fiction with horror, mystery, epic fantasy and gothic pulp to carve out a new corner in the DCU.

With a gigantic, interweaving cast of characters-many drawn from DC's incomparable history and reimagined by Morrison and his collaborators-Including vampire knights, crippled ex-super-heroes, subway pirates, puritan death machines, liquid nitrogen-blooded assassins, deathless Mafia dons, wounded gods, angry fiancées and talking winged horses, the universe of the Seven Soldiers is rich in wonder, drama and hardcore action.

This mega-series begins with a 38-page complete adventure, Seven Soldiers #0, that introduces readers to their twilight world and establishes plotlines that will reverberate throughout the entire megaseries.

Seven Soldiers: A mystery spanning generations and millennia. A story unlike any other. Welcome to a whole new world in the DC Universe.

Characters

Morrison: "In most cases my intention was to recreate the characters as more viable commercial properties, so I think dc is happy to let me overhaul these old trademarks if I can get make them run properly again and get some fresh mileage out of them. It was a lot easier to update the costumes, motivations, powers and settings of neglected characters than it would be to do the same kind of radical work in a Batman or Superman book, so I’m pleased with how it's worked out. These are very different kinds of superheroes and each book is a genre all its own. They’re all very strong and they all deal with super powers in a way that's never been explored previously.

"Having said that, where possible I’ve made sure I’ve been faithful to current DCU continuity; my version of the golden age Spider character, for instance, follows directly on from Geoff Johns’ recent reintroduction of the character. Otherwise, as in the case of Witch Boy, I’ve started from scratch and can only apologize to Peter David, who at least tried to keep this particular property in continuity. I’ve thrown all previous versions out to create the poster boy for the Puritan Goth weird horror genre. Klarion as Marilyn Manson."

*Unless otherwise noted, all character info from Wizard
Frankenstein
"Based loosely on DC's Spawn of Frankenstein series, this is a brutal revenge comic. It takes us all over the world and even to the gold mines of Mars in search of violent horror and ghastlyretribution. Maggot Men, flesh-eating Martian horses, toxic glass giants and more! Able to repair his body with pieces of other dead men, he has the right arm of a black slave and his left hand once belonged to the angel Michael."

Based on Morrison's desription and drawing (green head with protruding brow) many people assumed he's a martian. That's not true.

Shining Knight
"17-year-old Sir Justin is one of the last Knights of the Broken Table. Led by an aging Lancelot, the last remnants of the Round Table fight a race of unstopable monsters. These creatures, the Sheeda, are the main villains of Seven Soldiers. J.H. Williams-who draws the Seven Soldiers #0 bookend-came up withthis drawing of Justin, which crosses ancient armor with modern street wear to great effect." (and I wish I had a scanner so I could show you guys that awesome design!)

Klarion the Witch Boy
From Wizard - "I wanted to get away from the 'Eddie Munster' look, so I went back to [Jack] Kirby's original Puritan look with some new influences - the leather armor is inspired by paintings of Oliver Promwell, the 17th century Puritan reformer and the Marilyn Manson's stage wear - and tried to create the poster boy for Nu-Puritan Goth!"

Mister Miracle
"Shiloh Norman can't remember much of his past in the company of a religious nut named Scott Free and a circus freak called Oberon, but now he's inherited the mantle of the World's Greatest Escape Artist - a cross between David Blaine and P.Diddy. Super rich, beloved and burned out at 28, Mister Miracle is looking for some meaning in his life."

Bulleteer
"Obsessed with becoming a superhero and preserving his beautiful wife's youth, Prof. Lance Harrower invents Smartskin - a steal-hard living fiber which boncs with skin collagen. When his experiments go awry, Harrower is suffocated under a coating of steel skin. His wife Alix survives the horrific accident only to find herself an outcast and a freak. Now, encased in super-hard, living metal, she is a truly reluctant superhero."

Zatanna
"I updated Zatanna's look to include a goth fetish influence, with high boots and PVC tunic. Off duty, she wears tight leather pants and high-heeled boots. In Seven Soldiers, Zatanna takes on an apprentice and sets out on a road trip across America in search of her father's four books and her own lost confidence."

Guardian
"The new Guardian is Jake Jordan, a disillusioned ex-cop. After accidentally killing an innocent child during a raid, Jakes world fall apart. Now he's getting a second chance as the Guardian - the living masthead of a new kind of newspaper. Jake is now the in-house superhero of The Manhattan Guardian, a paper by the people, for the people, that doesn't just report crime, but fights crime as well."

Villains
Neh-Buh-Loh the Hunter (currently in Morrison's JLA: Classified arc)
The Sheeda
Others that he called the scariest villains he's ever made.
Space Pirates! (Whoo-hoo!)

Other heroes/characters appearing
The Spider
Mind-Grabber Kid
The Newsboy Army
Vigilante (Golden Age)
The Whip II (granddaughter of the original Golden Age Whip)
Vigilante's "Seven Soldiers"
And possibly 10 other "re-imaginings"

-Covers-
Seven Soldiers #0 (http://www.newsarama.com/DC/7Soldiers/Guardian1Covercopy.jpg)
Shining Knight #1 (http://www.newsarama.com/DC/7Soldiers/SSSNCv1.jpg)
Klarion #1 (http://www.newsarama.com/DC/7Soldiers/Klarionnewcov1.jpg)
Zatanna #1 (http://www.newsarama.com/DC/7Soldiers/SSZCv1.jpg)
Guardian #1 (http://www.newsarama.com/DC/7Soldiers/Guardian1Covercopy.jpg)

Artists

Seven Soldiers #0 (bookend) - J.H. Willians III (also doing 2nd bookend)
The Guardian - Cameron Stewart
Shining Knight - Simone Bianchi
Frankenstein - Doug Mahnke
Klarion the Witch Boy - Frazer Irving
Mister Miracle - Pascal Ferry
Zatanna - Ryan Sook
Bulleteer - Yanick Paquette & Michael Bair

[TCJohnson]

So wait...he is making Scott Free a religious nut?

[Expletive Deleted]

Well, he has been running around claiming to be a god.

[Lex]

So wait...he is making Scott Free a religious nut?

It says that Shiloh can't remember much of his past. I'm guessing that what he does remember makes Scott seem like a "religious nut" and Oberon a "circus freak."

I don't think he's actually changing Scott's continuity.

[TCJohnson]

It says that Shiloh can't remember much of his past. I'm guessing that what he does remember makes Scott seem like a "religious nut" and Oberon a "circus freak."

I don't think he's actually changing Scott's continuity.

I hope you are right.

[Bat-Mite]

Continuity or not, I would pay money for a comic about Scott Free sneaking into Apokolips, knocking on Darkseid's door just to say "Excuse me, have you found Jesus?" and then leaving a few pamphlets.

[berk]

Morrison's a talented writer who is capable of extraordinary work (e.g. 'The Filth'), especially by the standards of mainstream comics, but after his Justice League fiasco, I wouldn't go anywhere near a Morrison-written New Gods series.

[Joe Rice]

I don't mind telling you, Lex old boy, this is the best thing you've ever done. In your life. This is probably why God put you on earth. Thank you.

[Indigo Al]

I'm worried about Zatanna.

[Bat-Mite]

why?

The lost confidence thing, or the goth fetish?

[Lex]

This is probably why God put you on earth. Thank you.

Aw crap, I was afraid I would peak at 24.

And I'm glad you liked it (I knew you would... see, not everything I like is an evil Geoff Johns book).

[Lex]

I'm worried about Zatanna.

I haven't seen any info to suggest that Zatanna's character will change at all. The only thing we know for sure is that she's getting a slight costume modification and going on a quest (with a new apprentice) to find her dad's 4 lost magic books.

That doesn't sound bad at all.

[Joe Rice]

Aw crap, I was afraid I would peak at 24.

And I'm glad you liked it (I knew you would... see, not everything I like is an evil Geoff Johns book).


Heh.

But now, you amazing asshole, you've made me want to go get an issue of . . .Wizard.

[Lex]

you've made me want to go get an issue of . . .Wizard.

Mwuahahahaha!

Oh, and did I mention that all the drawings, aside from Williams' Shining Knight, were drawn by Morrison himself? And they're really good!

Mwuahahahahahaha!

[Joe Rice]

Mwuahahahaha!

Oh, and did I mention that all the drawings, aside from Williams' Shining Knight, were drawn by Morrison himself? And they're really good!

Mwuahahahahahaha!

Dammit. I own a Batman drawing by Morrison. He IS quite good.

CRAP!

[J.R.E.]

Are the pictures posted anywhere online?

*Really, really doesn't want to buy an issue of Wizard*

[TheGoldenAvenger]

Cheers Lex.

I think it sounds good. Most of the books are an excuse to buy something a bit different for me.

[IamtheRock3]

seems good but how it set up sounds kind of odd.

[Joe Rice]

Cheers Lex.

I think it sounds good. Most of the books are an excuse to buy something a bit different for me.

Looking at your signature, I'm pretty sure you are the anti-matter universe version of me. You won't like Seven Soldiers.

[Indigo Al]

I haven't seen any info to suggest that Zatanna's character will change at all. The only thing we know for sure is that she's getting a slight costume modification and going on a quest (with a new apprentice) to find her dad's 4 lost magic books.

That doesn't sound bad at all.

Hope you're right.

And for the record, I do love Grant Morrison, but he's not infallible.

[David O Burcham]

All the concepts sound really good, but is goth really as "comercially viable" as it used to be?

[TheGoldenAvenger]

Looking at your signature, I'm pretty sure you are the anti-matter universe version of me. You won't like Seven Soldiers.


:D hehe :D . I'll give it a go because I like Grant Morrisons writing.

[Indigo Al]

All the concepts sound really good, but is goth really as "comercially viable" as it used to be?

Exactly. IMO Zatanna doesn't need any goth trappings.

Then again, the idea for Klarion sounds pretty cool!

[Bat-Mite]

but is goth really as "commercially viable" as it used to be?

Considering there are more 'Hot Topic' stores than 'Stage Magician girls circa 1950s' I would say it's more "commercially viable," not that I ever had any problems with Zatanna's stage magician look.

[Apathy Boy]

Nice job, Lex.

From the character descriptions, I think I'm most excited about the Manhattan Guardian. "Living masthead" for a newspaper is an inspired concept.

Still disappointed that we're not going to see the Scott Free Mister Miracle, though.

[Paradox]

Phoney Bone pre-echos me:

All the concepts sound really good, but is goth really as "comercially viable" as it used to be?

That was my thought. "Goth" is so long-over that all that's left are pretentious poseurs.

That aside, this sounds really interesting and I'll be jumping on board...and probably complaining about Grant's lack of "mechanical skills" the whole way. ;)

[Joe Rice]

That was my thought. "Goth" is so long-over that all that's left are pretentious poseurs.

That's all there ever was. Now there's just more of them and they have more money.

[Bat-Mite]

Comics Continuum just put up one of the covers for Grant's Seven Soldiers project.

Seven Soldiers cover. (http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0411/07/sevensoldiers.htm)

From left to right and starting from the top, and then going right to left...

I assume the first guy is the new Klarion, or the illegitimate child of Hitman and Morpheus.

S&M Gal of the Legion of Pervs.

No clue who the guy with glasses might be.

Vigilante? I hate that guy.

Zattana, I guess.

Sperm head, he is full of spunk!

[Indigo Al]

Comics Continuum just put up one of the covers for Grant's Seven Soldiers project.

Seven Soldiers cover. (http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0411/07/sevensoldiers.htm)
S&M Gal of the Legion of Pervs.


Is that supposed to be Sir Justin? It looks like Oubliette (Exterminatrix) from the Marvel Boy series.

[Lex]

Comics Continuum just put up one of the covers for Grant's Seven Soldiers project.

Seven Soldiers cover. (http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0411/07/sevensoldiers.htm)

Are you sure that's from the SEVEN SOLDIERS project? The art does kinda look like J. H Williams III's, but the faces don't agree with any of the information we've gotten or any of the pictures Morrison drew. Plus, the name of the project is "Seven Soldiers" while this appears to be for "7 Soldiers of Victory."

Unless it's for the #0 bookend and focusses on entirely different characters, I don't see how that picture relates to Morrison's Seven Soldiers.

[Justin D.]

Are you sure that's from the SEVEN SOLDIERS project? The art does kinda look like J. H Williams III's, but the faces don't agree with any of the information we've gotten or any of the pictures Morrison drew. Plus, the name of the project is "Seven Soldiers" while this appears to be for "7 Soldiers of Victory."

Unless it's for the #0 bookend and focusses on entirely different characters, I don't see how that picture relates to Morrison's Seven Soldiers.

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0411/07/dcupanel.htm

It's for the #0 bookend, but I don't know who it focuses on. Should be interesting. I'm definitely looking forward to it. This is one of those things I think a lot of people won't be able to wait for the trade on.

[Bat-Mite]

Dude... I only know what's there.

It says Seven Soldiers of Victory, and it's a cover. Some of the characters on it do fit with what we know about the project.

And the weirdest thing is that there are only six faces on that cover, unless you count the skull.

[Paragon Kobold]

And the weirdest thing is that there are only six faces on that cover, unless you count the skull.

And oddly there are also only six characters on the cover of the Seven
soldiers Archive, shown on the same page...

Coincidence, or something more? Ask Grant Morrison.

[David O Burcham]

Wouldn't the person holding the sword in the air (I'll take a wild guess and say it's The Shining Knight) be the 7th person?

[Reptisaurus!]

And oddly there are also only six characters on the cover of the Seven
soldiers Archive, shown on the same page...


Who actually had eight members.

Hmmmm.

[David O Burcham]

Who actually had eight members.

Hmmmm.
I think Stripesy, Speedy, and Wing always played "rock-paper-scissors" at the start of each mission to see which one would be the odd man out.

[Lex]

Ahhh... this explains the cover.

*Spoilers for DC's Feb. comics*

In issue #0, illustrated by J.H. Williams III, Shelly Gaynor is the grand-daughter of Golden Age hero the Whip. She's revived the old family business and is turning her experiences as an urban crime-fighter into a best-selling book.

But when Shelly answers an ad to join the aging crimebuster Vigilante and his new team of "Seven Soldiers" in the hunt for an ancient monster haunting the deserts of the southwest, her super-hero dream becomes a terror-trip into the heart of an undying nightmare.


This makes sense with the info we got before these solicitations. I was thinking that this was a hero group that faces the main threat and can't handle it, which is when the mini-series heroes become involved. Right now, I think they won't be cannon fodder so much as background characters in the various mini-series. Like, showing up as each of the main characters deals with the threat to guide them or help or something.

Should be fun!

[Dr. Hfuhruhurr]

If there's no Wing in it, I'm not buying it. :D

[Bat-Mite]

Newsarama has an article about the Seven Soldiers thing. It has the list of artists attached to each book, and a few covers.

http://newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=21568

[Lex]

Newsarama has an article about the Seven Soldiers thing. It has the list of artists attached to each book, and a few covers.

Yeah, I just saw that. And what a list of artists! Cameron Stewart, Ryan Sook, Pascal Ferry (who is doing amazing on Adam Strange), Doug Mahnke and Yanick Paquette with Michael Bair! Add to that J. H. Williams III on the bookends and Seven Soldiers has some of the best artists in the industry.

And I thought I was excited about this project before!

[Ozymandis]

This project is going to be great. I love the idea of a mega-series and Grant Morrison is a creative enough writer to both do a decent reimagining of characters and put a new twist on the ones he is going to change. It would be great if he drew an issue though. Loved those drawings in Wizard.

[Adam Crocker]

That's all there ever was. Now there's just more of them and they have more money.

Disagree. Back in the early 80s it led to some really cool music like Bauhaus and the Birthday Party. Besides the Goth thing was originally just an extension of Glam (think T. Rex and Ziggy-Stardust era David Bowie, not bloody Poison and other such hair metal acts) which was all about posing, but doing it fantastically and with boogie!

And having seen the Newsarama article description of Mister Miracle I'd have to say that Morrison is just muddling Shiloh Norman's memories of Scott Free and Oberon, as opposed to changing continuity. Its actually a pretty handy way of keeping the character relatively unburdened by ties to the DC universe without completely redoing the character.

[Joe Rice]

Disagree. Back in the early 80s it led to some really cool music like Bauhaus and the Birthday Party.

You just proved my point.

[GUTB]

Oh God, this series is going to suck. How on Earth did this become a DC-bulleted release? Is this some sort of artist vanity project?

[Michael P]

Morrison defines it as the first "Mega-series."Which is inaccurate and a bit egotistical, given that Denny O'Neill has been using the term to describe line- and company-wide crossovers since at least "Knightfall," there have been plenty of long-term finite series before (Strikeforce: Morituri, Preacher, Cerebus), and the concept of a series of miniseries combining to tell one overarching epic is certainly nothing new (Earth/Universe/Paradise X, the Infinity Trilogy, Morrison's own Invisibles).

[Bat-Mite]

Pay no attention to that. DC's solicitations people tend to claim DC invented tap water every month.

[Paul McEnery]

Which is inaccurate and a bit egotistical, given that Denny O'Neill has been using the term to describe line- and company-wide crossovers since at least "Knightfall," there have been plenty of long-term finite series before (Strikeforce: Morituri, Preacher, Cerebus), and the concept of a series of miniseries combining to tell one overarching epic is certainly nothing new (Earth/Universe/Paradise X, the Infinity Trilogy, Morrison's own Invisibles).
Nope.

The closest to anything like this was those interconnected Epic series, which I now can't remember to save my life. They were supposed to all add up to something, but never did.

This, on the other hand, is intended to portray Grant's view of the interconnectedness of all things, by giving us a God's-eye view of events that look very different from each character's point of view.

I mean, obviously the Million books were all tied together in one big story, but at the end of it, there was one simple storyline, and everyone knew what it was.

In this case, I think this will be rather different.

[Reptisaurus!]

Oh God, this series is going to suck. How on Earth did this become a DC-bulleted release? Is this some sort of artist vanity project?

Well.

If I ever need someone to spew brainless, pointless, negativity and blather on about the perils of sex with superheroes, I know who to call.

(Seriously. *ALL* his posts are like this. Or, miraculously, even stupider.)

[Joe Rice]

Even if O'Neil's been using the term to describe the crap in the Batbooks, I think Morrison is safe in saying there's never been a superhero project like this one. The modular approach in and of itself is new. Paul puts it well with the "God's eye view" moniker.

[Rich L]

And having seen the Newsarama article description of Mister Miracle I'd have to say that Morrison is just muddling Shiloh Norman's memories of Scott Free and Oberon, as opposed to changing continuity. Its actually a pretty handy way of keeping the character relatively unburdened by ties to the DC universe without completely redoing the character.

Yeah. Which is a shame as he's currently head of security at the Slab, and showed up briefly in JLA#107. (Hey who better to stop breakouts than the greatest human escape artist of all?)

Oh, and there's already a Shining Knight knocking about the DCU due to Stars And S.T.R.I.P.E. - so why not use that character?

I think the project will be interesting but I suspect I'll pick it up in trade form.

[GUTB]

This is nothing but a vanity project. It's going to be boring and it's going to suck.

[Bat-Mite]

Oh, and there's already a Shining Knight knocking about the DCU due to Stars And S.T.R.I.P.E. - so why not use that character?

Cause frankly, just like the rest of the real seven soldiers of victory, he is kind of embarrassing.

[Cash Lone]

You just proved my point.

Sorry. Those bands were (still) great. You just dont get it.

[Joe Rice]

Yeah. Which is a shame as he's currently head of security at the Slab, and showed up briefly in JLA#107. (Hey who better to stop breakouts than the greatest human escape artist of all?).

Another tired Kingdom Come reference. At least rip off something good!

Oh, and there's already a Shining Knight knocking about the DCU due to Stars And S.T.R.I.P.E. - so why not use that character?


Despite Stars and S.T.R.I.P.E. being the best/only good Johns work to date, it still wasn't memorable enough that I feel bad that I get a new Morrison character.

[Joe Rice]

This is nothing but a vanity project. It's going to be boring and it's going to suck.

Many disagree on all points. Enjoy something.

[Joe Rice]

Sorry. Those bands were (still) great. You just dont get it.

Ah, the old "don't get it" excuse. You don't like something I like so you don't get it!

No, I get it. I just think it's not good. "Bela Lugosi's dead!" Grow up, lonely teenagers!

[Lex]

Yeah. Which is a shame as he's currently head of security at the Slab, and showed up briefly in JLA#107.

With such an important role in the DCU, you'd think he would make many appearnace. But I've counted two since he became head of the Slab. Did they even mention him when Outsiders let all those villains out of there? Yes it's an important role, but no one is using him. And a one panel appearnace in JLA isn't a big boon to the character. As he is now, you can't have a 4-issue mini series about him. Morrison is trying to make the character commercially viable.

Oh, and there's already a Shining Knight knocking about the DCU due to Stars And S.T.R.I.P.E. - so why not use that character?

Now, I thought his appearance in Stars and S.T.R.I.P.E. was kickass. But, once again, how often has he been used since then? I've seen a couple good JSA appearances and just recently in Identity Crisis (though I'm not sure he was named). But, once again, Morrison is trying to make this property comercially viable. In this case, Shining Knight's continuity doesn't lend itself easily to his own project. I'm sure a very talented writer could do a Shining Knight comic within current continuity, but have we seen anything close to that? No.

So I don't see any problem with reimagining these characters this way because it will only make them stronger as characters. And if they're as commercially viable as Morrison thinks, who knows, we may see a Shining Knight ongoing series after this.

[Reptisaurus!]

This is nothing but a vanity project. It's going to be boring and it's going to suck.

That's a valid point. Like most of Morrison's work, it probably won't appeal to complete idiots.

[Taskmaster]

That's a valid point. Like most of Morrison's work, it probably won't appeal to complete idiots.
Oh so it only appeals to total assholes like yourself? I've hated everything i've read by Morrison except for his JLA work and even that was just so so. In my opinion he is vastly overrated and writes his stories intentionally trying to go over the readers heads and ends up making it so he has to make a major cop out in order to bring the story together (Xorn as Magneto anyone?). So next time please think before insulting somebody just because they don't like a writer you like, not everybody has the same tastes

[Flight]

Oh so it only appeals to total assholes like yourself?So next time please think before insulting somebody just because they don't like a writer you like, not everybody has the same tastes Hmmm Maybe think about doing that yourself?

I'm looking forward to it as I'm a big fan of Morrison (especially his X-run)
I have no clue who any of these characters are so its all new to me and hopefully enjoyable

[mckracken]

The more abstruse, the better?
I dont know Mr. Morrison, I really dont know.

[Taskmaster]

Hmmm Maybe think about doing that yourself?

I'm looking forward to it as I'm a big fan of Morrison (especially his X-run)
I have no clue who any of these characters are so its all new to me and hopefully enjoyable

Mine was a question refering to the insult he made to people who don't like Morrison like myself, not a statement of stupidity for a large group of people who didn't have anything to do with the statement he was replying to and which i felt insulted from...

[Reptisaurus!]

Oh so it only appeals to total assholes like yourself? I've hated everything i've read by Morrison except for his JLA work and even that was just so so. In my opinion he is vastly overrated and writes his stories intentionally trying to go over the readers heads and ends up making it so he has to make a major cop out in order to bring the story together (Xorn as Magneto anyone?). So next time please think before insulting somebody just because they don't like a writer you like, not everybody has the same tastes

Taskmaster. You can dislike Morrison if you like. He's the most *pure* science fiction writer in comics, which is why I like him, but I think his stories have pacing problems, his character dialouge is 95% interchangable, and he simply can't write Marvel style soap-opera.

By 'n large, I read comics more for the concepts and ideas contained therein, not the story structure or the soap opera bits. Your mileage may vary, and that's fine.

My problem with GUTB is that, (A) judging art before you've actually seen the art is a particular pet peeve of mine. He has *NO* *BASIS* for his arguments.

Which, incidentally, are completely devoid of any logic whatsover. "Vanity Project?" This means that the guy likes what he's writing! So Sandman was a vanity project? Preacher?

And whatever Morrison's faults are, I've never heard his work described as "boring." Once again, this is an argument that comes from Magic-GUTB land where the lolipop trees grow on the sugar-cane mountain, far, far away from any actual reality.

And these kind of straight-outta-law-law land "THIS SUCKS!" type posts are pretty much *ALL* this guy does.

Some quotes, starting with my *personal* favorite, where he insults every DC artist who isn't Jim Lee.

Seriously.


The bane of mdoern comicbooks is crap art. In specific, it is the bane of DC. Half the comics, if not more, are outright unreadable to everyone but a small minority of hardcore fanboys due specifically to the crap art. And then you take a book like Superman/Batman which lacks quality storytelling but has loads of flash with big names on it and it's number 1. I mean, it's right in your face: people want good art -- and by good we mean by the standards of the majority of comic buyers, not the bizarre Mikey-likes-it or rarified sensabilities of fanboys. And nobody would read Azz's run on Superman if it wasn't for Lee. Fact.



Actually JMS is a washed-up has-been who'll never make television again. B5 only happened due to the peculiar conditions of cable TV back in the 90s and the booming ecenomy. TV has changed dramatically and now JMS will never get the time of day ever again. Besides, all his post-B5 work has been trash. Like the garbage _Crusader_. And to be savagley honest, B5 was mostly crap.

JMS writing the best Spidey? Really?



Sorry, this was a mediocre episode I can't understand why all you fanboys are going nuts over Amazo -- what damned cheap charcter. Look, I'm a robot made by some Earth scientist to be virtually omnipotent, and I am! The space "fight" was a gyp -- no action whatsoever. The atmosphere fight was a little better (even though Supergirl gets gyped too). Luthor and his retirded beam cannon -- like such a ridiculous punk thing will do anything to something that can make frikin Ao dispaear while wiping out the GL core like they were nothing, whoop the S-shields like they were kiddy toys and mow down the entire JL like wheat.



Amen. I laugh at people who praise Supreme Power as being "realistic" or "powerful" or "edgy". Rather, it's just silly. And boring. JMS has this disgustingly middle-class, contemptious view of common folk and society in general. The heroes are sad chariactures.


He actually said these in a "reboot Wonder Woman's villains" thread Adding nothing worthwhile of his own, of course
Bad idea. WW is just one monthly. A villian like that is good for a novel, not for a book that must be entertaining month after month.

Bad idea. Only for Golden Age homages or Captain Marvel, which are the same thing.



JSA will not last. It's a nostalga kick that will go away soon. Can you believe lots of people actually want to put the new Kara in with them? That's insane.


.... And I'm ignoring the really *really* far out ones on the Rumbles board.

He's like a trained parrot that reflexively types-out "crap" "boring" "crap" "boring" over and over and over, without stopping to engage his brain. I'm hoping that if I point out to him how *completely* *valueless* his posts here are, he'll either improve or go the hell away.

[Taskmaster]

Well thats all well and good, but when you said what you said you made it sound like that was all people who don't like Morrison, but as long as you relalize that's not true then were all good. Heck I pretty much agree with what your saying towards GTUB so have at him, just dont generalize because thats the first thing i read in this thread and I was offended and i'm sure some others would feel the same way

[GUTB]

This is a vanity title, which means a certain creator is going to go prove why he shouldn't be allowed to make discsions but will make them anyway in an effort to keep them happy. Kind of like PAD's Fallen Angel (which no one reads and should be canned any time now) except Morrison is important enough to wrangle his vanity project into the mainstream DCU universe.

The material so far sounds like he never lived the 90s down and wants his turn to do "art". Just by that alone I can guess that it will suck, I don't even need to know it's by Morrison which really only makes it certain that it will suck.

Good art is a requirement for a comic to sell, and a requirement for a good comic period. But it's not the only thing that makes a good comic as the Azz/Lee run on Superman is proving. Lee sells comics, but Azz takes sales away. We see this dynamic as the first few titles in the current arc sold into the stratosphere, but which have since plumetted back to Earth. Peopel bought for Lee, and left for Azz, who behind each panel is screaming "THIS COMIC SUCKS OMG YOU ARE SUCH SUCKERS FOR READING THIS CRAP COMIC BE ASHAMED AT READING THIS BORING COMIC THAT SUCKS!!!"

Is Morrison a substitute for Lee? No he isn't. Can he destroy as many sales as Azz? Maybe. We'll see. But are a couple of 3rd- and 2nd-tier characters no one really cares about being placed in an "art" project fare better than Superman? I somehow doubt it.

[Bat-Mite]

As said by Taskmaster
so he has to make a major cop out in order to bring the story together (Xorn as Magneto anyone?).

If you pay attention you will notice that there are tons of clues pointing out that Xorn was Magneto since he showed up. It's just that they were very well hidden, and you only notice them after the fact, which makes the whole thing totally cooler.

[Cash Lone]

Ah, the old "don't get it" excuse. You don't like something I like so you don't get it!

No, I get it. I just think it's not good. "Bela Lugosi's dead!" Grow up, lonely teenagers!

Not an excuse - Its the reason. You dont like it, thats more than okay. But I'm pointing out your simplistic, unenlightened bashing of a genre.

Bauhaus is great. Fantastic performers and musicians. Very creative and artistic. Even Bauhaus had a sense of humor about themselves and would be the first to admit that B.L.D is camp.

[tymac]

I'm not quite sure what he means by vanity project. Morrison had an idea, pitched it to DC and they liked it, where does vanity enter in?

Gutb seems to have a problem with anything that involves B-Listers. Writers like to work with those characters because they aren't as encumbered with continuity or public expectations. You can write them more easily without affecting other people's work in their monthly titles and have them do things that no one will complain is out of character. Ultimately, it will be the quality of the work(story and art) that will determine whether on not it sells enough.

I generally like what Morrison has done with his own characters. I didn't read his X run because I don't read X-titles anymore. I hope that he can accomplish something interesting with this.

P.S. I always though that the 90's dip was caused by bad writing, no payoffs to the long term stories, and the natural loss of interest that always follows a boom.

[Adam Crocker]

Sorry. Those bands were (still) great. You just dont get it.

Ah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!

Tee-hee...Cash Lone, I think you have good tastes in music, but man, this isn't the best way to set up the argument.


No, I get it. I just think it's not good. "Bela Lugosi's dead!" Grow up, lonely teenagers!

On the other hand "Bela Lugosi's Dead" IS high camp. As dark and chilling as I find Bauhaus, Peter Murphy's vocal performance is deliberately over the top. (Heck any old footage of them performing or their cover of T. Rex's "Telegram Sam" confirms this) Ditto with Nick Cave in Birthday Party, who regards the band as purveyor of a fair amount of dark humour.

Now getting back on track...


Gutb seems to have a problem with anything that involves B-Listers.

I dunno, from my experience with this poster I don't think it has anything to do with B-List characters so much as he usually seems to be completely negative about anything.


I think the project will be interesting but I suspect I'll pick it up in trade form.

Me too, especially since I recently cancelled my pull list to go over to all trades. So many stories I want to read that are collected and I'd rather have the monthly burden of the pull list off my back in order to save up for better musical equipment in the future. Plus I feel I am better served storywise by the format. Either way I'll likely start collecting these once they come out on trade.

[Joe Rice]

Even when they were talented, the entire Goth movement was one of pretentious posers. If you have to wake up in the morning and decide you're going to dress and act like there's a theme in your life that's pretentious posing. The only difference with Goths now is that it got mall popular.

[Paradox]

Joe Rice continues to misrepresent:

Even when they were talented, the entire Goth movement was one of pretentious posers. If you have to wake up in the morning and decide you're going to dress and act like there's a theme in your life that's pretentious posing. The only difference with Goths now is that it got mall popular.

I suppose it all depends on how you define "poser". To me, it's not the clothes, it's the clothes merely as a trend. Not because you like the music and the supposed "sub-culture", but because it's been decided it's "kewl". Sorry you can't see that...or else categorize anyone with a "different" style as posers (which you may very well feel true).

"Mall friendly"??? Geez, they'd laugh Goths out of the place if they dressed like that here anymore. Maybe you've just got a bunch left in NYC...everything tends to hang on a bit longer there.

[Joe Rice]

I suppose it all depends on how you define "poser". To me, it's not the clothes, it's the clothes merely as a trend. Not because you like the music and the supposed "sub-culture", but because it's been decided it's "kewl". Sorry you can't see that...or else categorize anyone with a "different" style as posers (which you may very well feel true).

"Mall friendly"??? Geez, they'd laugh Goths out of the place if they dressed like that here anymore. Maybe you've just got a bunch left in NYC...everything tends to hang on a bit longer there.

I maintain that if every morning you have to consciously think about the theme of your life, whether it's goth, ska-punk, all those indie comics guys obsessed with the 20s, or me when I wore my WWII helmet everywhere, you're a pretentious poser. You are buying into a sub-culture for whatever reason.

Now they sell it in the malls of suburbia. That's the big audience I'm talking about. And as far as I can tell, NY ALWAYS laughed at goths.

In other words, if your grandmother gives you a shirt for Christmas and you don't wear it NOT because it's a hideous shirt but because it doesn't "Fit in with your lifestyle/look," you are by definition a pretentious poser.

[Paradox]

Joe Rice does run by his own definitions:

In other words, if your grandmother gives you a shirt for Christmas and you don't wear it NOT because it's a hideous shirt but because it doesn't "Fit in with your lifestyle/look," you are by definition a pretentious poser.

So, are you saying that anyone "style conscious" is a pretentious poser? Say, the young girl that doesn't want to wear the high-waisted, stone wash jeans granny got her because low-slung jeans with the thighs "worn" off are the ones in style? Just curious.

[Bat-Mite]

So, if my grandmother gives the world's prettiest skirt, and I don't want to wear it because:

A) I'm not a girl.
B) And I'm not from Scotland either.

Does that make me a pretentious man poseur?

Just trying to understand Joe's philosophy.

[mckracken]

Just trying to understand Joe's philosophy.

Either that, or youre just trying to be clever. :)

[Joe Rice]

So, are you saying that anyone "style conscious" is a pretentious poser? Say, the young girl that doesn't want to wear the high-waisted, stone wash jeans granny got her because low-slung jeans with the thighs "worn" off are the ones in style? Just curious.

That's not what I'm saying and you know it. I'm talking about people who play "dress up" every day. They have a theme. They don't wear clothes, they wear a costume. I mentioned that the theoretical shirt gramma gave the person is perfectly nice and in style and fits. They don't wear it because it's not "goth" or "1920s" or whatever fetish they hope will help them be less lonely.

[Paradox]

Joe Rice mistakes me:

That's not what I'm saying and you know it.

Actually, I wasn't at all sure. Your definitions of things have been so different from mine lately that I didn't know. That's why I asked a question instead of making a rebuttal.

I'm talking about people who play "dress up" every day. They have a theme. They don't wear clothes, they wear a costume. I mentioned that the theoretical shirt gramma gave the person is perfectly nice and in style and fits. They don't wear it because it's not "goth" or "1920s" or whatever fetish they hope will help them be less lonely.

Hmmm...so, are we including '70s era punks in this? Just trying to get a grip on the limits of what you're saying.

See, I consider regular fashions to be a "costume" as well. To me, the poser aspect is more about intent than about the actual fashions. So, I'm trying to find out if there's some kind of common line we can draw here. Seriously, to me, the Goths were probably the least outré of the types you describe. Merely black clothes, heavy black eyeliner and black hair functioned for most of them. And the ones I knew didn't dress like that all the time, just when they went to their clubs and such. I don't see that kind of thing being any different than wearing "stylish" clothes to a club where that type of thing is more the thing to do.

Certainly I see your point about the "lonely teen joiners" being posers. That's my point. The ones who I don't consider posers didn't allow it to take over their lives, they weren't doing it because they were "lonely joiners", they just liked the music, look and supposed "sub-culture".

[Joe Rice]

If liking a band means you have to dress different, that's weird.

Seventies era punks definitely are included in this statement. People that put on a costume, be it hair dye or ridiculous haute couture, are pretentious posers. They decide "today I want to be ______." I find that silly.

[Taskmaster]

If you pay attention you will notice that there are tons of clues pointing out that Xorn was Magneto since he showed up. It's just that they were very well hidden, and you only notice them after the fact, which makes the whole thing totally cooler.

Gotta disagree here, there were more "clues" that made it impossible for Xorn to be Mags than there were to support it

[Adam Crocker]

Even when they were talented, the entire Goth movement was one of pretentious posers. If you have to wake up in the morning and decide you're going to dress and act like there's a theme in your life that's pretentious posing. The only difference with Goths now is that it got mall popular.

Sorry Joe don't see it. Goth is a youth subculture just like...well every other youth subculture that comes to mind. While I am pretty oblivious to trends myself, find some of them off putting and yes posing is involved, I don't necessarily find it inherently about being a "pretentious poseur."

Look what the Goths and punks did in the late 70s/early 80s, or the Two-Tone Ska scene in Britain around that time, was much different from Britain's Ska-Reggae oriented skin-head subculture of the late 60s (now there's some irony for you), the hippies of the same period, the R&B lovin' Mods of mid 60s, the rock oriented greasers of the 50s, or young couples of the 20s and 30s who dressed up in Zoot suits and flappers and went out to dance to Swing in the clubs.

Humans are a social animal and we're hardwired towards tribalistic behaviour, for better or for worst. Teenagers tend to gravitate into scenes, adopt the ways and customs of them, including the fashions. And its not just posing or deciding "today I want to be." Some genuinely like them as they do the music (which is kind of what causes such scenes to glom together) and I suppose there's an element of peer pressure too with everyone dressing like that. (Teenagers are usually pretty suseptible to what their peers are doing, so I have trouble faulting them for being fashion conscious.)

If liking a band means you have to dress different, that's weird.

In many ways it is not that different from comic fans collecting rare issues, action figures or statues, which I imagine seems pretty weird to most other people.

That said why is Morrison using the goth element on Klarion and Zantanna? Not entirely sure though given that Morrison was a young man around the time of Britain's punk explosion and the post-punk that followed (which included Goth rock), and that he has been on record in saying that punk got him interested in music again, I'd say he probably has a certain affinity for it. Though I'd say that with Klarion it's probably the most appropriate, though Morrison's going beyond it by adopting visual cues from the Puritan culture that partly inspired Klarion's visual look.

[Bat-Mite]

Gotta disagree here, there were more "clues" that made it impossible for Xorn to be Mags than there were to support it

Like what?

[Adam Crocker]

Good art is a requirement for a comic to sell, and a requirement for a good comic period. But it's not the only thing that makes a good comic as the Azz/Lee run on Superman is proving. Lee sells comics, but Azz takes sales away.

Disagree. I regard Jim Lee as being a highly overrated artist who's story telling abilities have only recently developed to a level of adequate competence, as opposed showing overmuscled figures posing in tights and awkwardly posed fight scenes, which is really all I saw in his X-Men and W.I.L.D. Cats work.

Now I'm not overly familiar with many of the artists on this project. Simon Bianchi, the guy doing Shining Knight seems to have come out of nowhere and I've never seen Frazer Irving, Yanick Paquette, or Ryan Sook's stuff. (Though his Zatanna image looks nice.) What little I have seen Doug Manhke's stuff never really caught me and looked a bit too sketchy.

On the other hand Morrison has J.H. Williams III, Cameron Stewart, and Pascual Ferry on board. J.H. Williams III did Promethea with Alan Moore. The man's one of the most technically accomplished artists working in comics today, as well as one of the most inventive. He may not have a big fan base as Jim Lee, but I find he easily beats out Lee as a storyteller and in terms of sheer eye-candy.

As for Stewart and Ferry, go pick up Morrison's recent Seaguy and the new Adam Strange comic. Both those men are accomplished comics artists with individual styles that stand out, as well as being good storytellers to boot. Ferry's figures are very fluid in their movements and he has a dynamism that recalls classic superhero artists like Jack Kirby and John Buscema, and is well suited to the action/adventure stories in general. Cam Stewart has a similarly classicist bent though his work tends to recall the work of Alex Toth. (Who reduced his drawings down to mostly essential lines and shadows.)

As for whether or not Morrison will be a sales wrecker, well his JLA run was quite a success and by-in-large people were praising it for Morrison returning the League to the Big Seven line up. His New X-Men run...well X-Men sells in any case and their seemed to be plenty of people who were disatissfied with it, though it still not only sold well, but brought in a great number of people who had given up on the X-Men. Given that his popularity is such that DC will offer him cushy deals that allow him to get whatever he wants published at Vertigo, and even have them heavily push something as off the beaten track as this, I'd say more likely he's main attraction talent-wise for this project.

[Dr. Hfuhruhurr]

If you've only read Morrison's JLA work, I can see why you might think he's only so-so. While I enjoyed his JLA run, he intentionally wrote it as a plot-driven, rather than character-driven book. Morrison's Doom Patrol run is worth picking up, as I feel it was his best work in comics. Read that before you dismiss him as a writer. And, why not give Seven Soldiers a read before you shoot it down as crap? Just a thought.

[Jake V]

And, why not give Seven Soldiers a read before you shoot it down as crap? Just a thought.

because that's what GUTB does. Look around the board, many of the comics solicited to come out months down the line has already been deemed by him as crap. He even goes so far as to chastize people who are being optimistic about certain comics instead of complaining. The guy is just full of hate.

As for seven soldiers, it's gonna be incredible. Morrison doing superheroes with no restrictions? I was ready to buy before it was solicited.

[GUTB]

Do you know what the rarified taste in art by hardcore comic nerds is worth? Let's see:

Superman #204 (Lee/Azzarello): 231,411
Superman #203 (Caldwell/Gorder/Azzarello/Kelly): 83,096*
Superman #202 (Caldwell/Gorder/Azzarello/Kelly): 50,449
* Advertised with a 6-page art collection by Jim Lee

Batman #608 (Lee/Loeb): 113,061
Batman #607 (McDaniel/Brubaker/Johns): 43,603

Promethea #27 (Williams/Moore): 16,528

No one cares about Williams. If they did, if he generated art that could hang with big leagues, why is selling chump change?

Good art sells comics. The fact is this: Jim Lee is considered by not only most people but by the market of comic book buyers to be the king. What Lee touches turns to gold. Even boring, dragging, silly trash like Azzarello's run on Superman is not immune to Lee's golden touch -- and that is some of Lee's poorest work to boot.

This is why Jim Lee sells:

http://411images.com/figures/dcdirect/heroes619.jpg

This is how Superman is supposed to look:

http://www.universohq.com/quadrinhos/2003/imagens/batman_612.jpg

So how much DO the tastes of the fringe comic nerds of fandom worth? As it turns out, very, very little.

[Jake V]

But isn't Jim Lee something of an anomaly? Name another artist that generates sales by name alone. I don't think there has been one since the big image heyday. If McFarlane came back to comics, he might generate sales, but when will that ever happen? Silvestri just doesn't generate the interest he used to unless he does work for the big 2, and Liefeld is a joke.

Art is subjective, you can't say simply that "good art" sells comics, because your version of "good art" might be vastly different than someone elses. The truth here, is that Jim Lee sells comics, which happens to be your definition of "good art".

[Adam Crocker]

Do you know what the rarified taste in art by hardcore comic nerds is worth? Let's see:

I didn't say anything about sales. I was responding largely to this comment.

Good art is a requirement for a comic to sell, and a requirement for a good comic period.

In the case of Lee, as well as Michael Turner, good art is not a requirement for a comic to sell. Quite frequently somewhat adequate art or bad art accomplishes the task just as well so long as its "flashy" enough. I mean back in the early 90s Todd McFarlane and Rob Liefield sold comics.

No one cares about Williams. If they did, if he generated art that could hang with big leagues, why is selling chump change?

I wouldn't say no one, but its not the art that's main draw of the Seven Soldiers of Victory project, it is the project's writer.

This is why Jim Lee sells:

Flashy, over-rendered pin ups with stiffly posed characters sell!? SHOCKING!!! http://www.issue9mm.com/forum/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif

This is how Superman is supposed to look:

I weep for Superman fans. http://www.issue9mm.com/forum/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif

But isn't Jim Lee something of an anomaly? Name another artist that generates sales by name alone. I don't think there has been one since the big image heyday.

Well not entirely. There is Alex Ross, but that's about it. Truthfully there doesn't seem to be an artist that can command that much star status, not since the failed Cliffhanger! imprint at least. Even then I'm not sure how much of a draw Joe Madureira and J. Scott Campbell would still be. Still artists like John Cassady, Alan Davis, and Bryan Hitch seem to provide a draw, but still nowhere near as much as Lee.

[Joe Rice]

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with pretentious posing. We all do it at some point in our lives. I'm just saying, that goth didn't suddenly become pretentious posing after never being so. It always was.

And anyone whose argument rests on the crux that "JIM LEE IS AWESOME!!!!" is easily disregardable.

[Bat-Mite]

I still fail to See why "Liking to dress in one specific way" = "pretentious posing"

One thing is to like to wear black clothes and mime paint on your face, because you like that look, and another is to run a livejournal with crappy poems about how you are the children of the night, and more special than everybody else, and how you will show the people that make fun of you that you are better than them no matter how much toilet water they make you drink at recess.

There is a difference.

[Adam Crocker]

And anyone whose argument rests on the crux that "JIM LEE IS AWESOME!!!!" is easily disregardable.

But that's not the crux of his argument. It's that "JIM LEE SELLS!" yet somehow he feels this means sales = quality. That's even more disregardable.

[Bat-Mite]

But isn't Jim Lee something of an anomaly? Name another artist that generates sales by name alone.

Jim Lee doesn't generate sales by name alone. If he did, that issue of Sleeper would have sold much better than it did. And 'Divine Right' would have been somewhat more successful.

[Bat-Mite]

There is a PDF preview of the first issue of Seven Soldiers.

Download it here (http://www.dccomics.com/media/excerpts/2699_x.pdf)

I love those Kirby Pogo-sticks.

[The Xenos]

Wow. This thread, and this series, turned out more interesting than I ever expected.

First, I didn't know this was going to be in the DCU. I thought it was gonna be it's own coninuity. Second, I didn't know the artists invovled. Third, I didn't know Zantana and Clarion were going to be in it.

So, let's start with the 'goth people' who reall are the character I liked. I'm rather annoyed Morrison is tossing that word around. I guess I'm goth. All my friends all me that (and worse) since I started wearing mostly all black instead of just doing it occasionally. Hey, I've always liked black and figured one day, 'Why not?' Plus, looks at the comics I love, two of my favorite books are Batman and Sandman. Oh yeah, I also love Hellboy.

Anyway, not too keen on the Clarion reboot. Though I must admit.. bum Bum BUM.. it was a bit cheesy. (I see Morrison himself notes the mostly comical appearance in David's Young Justice.) Yet making him goth seems cliche. Well, at least making him Marlyn Manson goth. I rather don't care for Manson and think he's overrated or at least too connected with and reppresentative of the goth label. I rather don't like a lot of American and Hot topic goths (though I must confess I myself have bought some cool stuff there). American goths tend to be punky.

With Zantana, well I can see her going kinda 'goth'. She's into magic and she is a showwomen, so taking up that look isn't that much of a streatch. Plus it works if they're going for more of a dark magic or horror story. Plus for the first time looking at Identiry Crisis I saw her old costume. Dear crap that's frekaing ugly. Keeping with the classic, even if they add more latex and black and 'gothness', it sounds good. As long as she keeps the fishnets, I'll be happy. Speaking of happy. I am quite happy Ryan Sook is working on her book.

I honestly don't know squat about the rest of the characters. I like Morrison, but sometimes he's an egotistical psycho. That's rather both good and bad, I think.

And this line about the while 'mega-series' claims cracked me up.

Pay no attention to that. DC's solicitations people tend to claim DC invented tap water every month.

-Xenos

[Bat-Mite]

Yet making him goth seems cliche. Well, at least making him Marlyn Manson goth.

Actually, he is puritan goth.

If you check the covers, you can see Klarion wearing a Cromwell type of armor in there.

[Predator]

Well, it is something different, which is what Morrison is going for. I don't feel the need to buy it right away in monthly, but I might pick it up if it comes out in trade.

[Paul McEnery]

Well, it is something different, which is what Morrison is going for. I don't feel the need to buy it right away in monthly, but I might pick it up if it comes out in trade.
God only knows how they're going to put this out as a trade. 7 separate trades plus one for the bookends?

The only things I ever buy these days that aren't in trades are Planetary, Promethea and most of the Grant Morrison output. Somethings just need to be read hot off the press.

[Paul McEnery]

I maintain that if every morning you have to consciously think about the theme of your life, whether it's goth, ska-punk, all those indie comics guys obsessed with the 20s, or me when I wore my WWII helmet everywhere, you're a pretentious poser. You are buying into a sub-culture for whatever reason.
You know, Joe, everything you've said about goths, starting here, has been bothering me. And I've just figured out the whole of it.

Couldn't you apply your criticism to, say, born-again Christians?

(For those not in the know, "born-again Christian" is Joe's chosen subculture.)

Hey kids, let's try splicing the elephant with the antelope:

I maintain that if every morning you have to consciously think about the theme of your life, whether it's born-again christian, ska-punk, all those indie comics guys obsessed with the 20s, or me when I wore my WWII helmet everywhere, you're a pretentious poser. You are buying into a sub-culture for whatever reason.

Now they sell it in the malls of suburbia. That's the big audience I'm talking about. And as far as I can tell, NY ALWAYS laughed at born-again christians.

In other words, if your grandmother gives you a shirt for Christmas and you don't wear it NOT because it's a hideous shirt but because it doesn't "Fit in with your lifestyle/look," you are by definition a pretentious poser.

...

I'm talking about people who play "dress up" every day. They have a theme. They don't wear clothes, they wear a costume. I mentioned that the theoretical shirt gramma gave the person is perfectly nice and in style and fits. They don't wear it because it's not "born-again christian" or "1920s" or whatever fetish they hope will help them be less lonely.

...

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with pretentious posing. We all do it at some point in our lives. I'm just saying, that born-again christian didn't suddenly become pretentious posing after never being so. It always was."

So yeah, all subcultures -- all tribes -- have their rules of behaviour circumscribed. Most subcultures look silly from the outside. But at least goths have bodices, fishnet tights, and Einstuerzende Neubauten. And what do you have:

Pat Boone!

Ha ha on you Mr. Snootypants!

P.S. Just because I have a complete collection of Swans and Nick Cave, can quote William Blake ad nauseum, practice Chaos Magic, dress exclusively in black, have all black bedding and accessories, own a big skull cross, a hand of glory, a scorpion ring and an authentic priest's cape, and occasionally dabble in eyeliner does NOT make me a goth, dammit. Though the picture of Siouxsie I keep under my pillow might.

[The Xenos]

Actually, he is puritan goth.

If you check the covers, you can see Klarion wearing a Cromwell type of armor in there.

True. Though Morrison does mention Manson. Hopefully he will be more daper than some of Manson's wilder outfits. Maybe just the long hair. I dunno. I definately like the whole Puritan look. Growing up near Salem and hearing about the witch trials, I certainly know the look. You gotta love the bland conservative outfits those repressed bastards had.

-Xenos

[The Xenos]

Well I looked at myself in the mirror in the car today and thought of this thread. I realized.. Wow. I kinda look puritan goth. I had a black collared shirt, long hair, and a really bushy and old looking beard. Though I doubt Clarion the Witch Boy would have a beard.

-Xenos

[Tadhg]

Jim Lee doesn't generate sales by name alone. If he did, that issue of Sleeper would have sold much better than it did. And 'Divine Right' would have been somewhat more successful.
Very True. Lee on Mainstream Iconic Superheroes sells. Promethea selling "Chump change" has very little to do with J.H. Williams and more to do with very few people ever deviating from their standard purchases of DC and Marvel Superheroes.

[Lex]

God only knows how they're going to put this out as a trade. 7 separate trades plus one for the bookends?

I think you're right about the 7 trades, but I doubt we'll see the bookends collected.

Previously, I was thinking that they could collect two or more of the mini-series into trades and squeeze the bookends in there somewhere. I was thinking they would do this because of how everything is connected. But, then I realized that even though everything is connected, Morrison is trying to make every mini so it can be read seperate from the other minis. That goes along with him wanting each of these properties to be comercially viable.

So, if sales are good, we could definately see seven trades. And if not, I'm betting that Zatanna will at least be collected.

[Joe Rice]

Back from holiday, I'm going to reply to Paul.

Notice I never said anything was really wrong with being a pretentious poser. Even that I said we all were guilty of it at least some times. But I wasn't just talking about subcultures. I'm talking about day-to-day costumes. Yes, I am part of the born-again subculture, but not in the pretentious poser way. If I woke up every morning and dug through all my clothes in order to find the "Christian costume" I wear (you know, those tacky shirts with awful slogans that reduce the whole religion) I'd surrender immediately.

I come much closer, in the everyday dress that I'm talking about, to being part of the "fashion whore" subculture, but lack the funds to sufficiently pull it off. Back in college, when I went around everywhere in my WW2 helmet, harmonica, and big bulky army jacket, I was a pretentious poser in the thick of it.

My point was, when Paradox said that "the only goths now are pretentious posers" is that "they always were."

[Paradox]

Joe Rice is really scary:

Back in college, when I went around everywhere in my WW2 helmet, harmonica, and big bulky army jacket...

STOP SAYING THAT!!!

You keep making me picture it...and it ain't pretty! :p

[Joe Rice]

STOP SAYING THAT!!!

You keep making me picture it...and it ain't pretty! :p

Every nutjob in Manhattan thought I was "one of them." I was in with the out crowd and they always told me interesting things.

And you'd be surprised how well a helmet does with the ladies . . .I know I was. Pretentious posing does have its benefits.

[Lex]

From DC's March Solicitations:

SEVEN SOLDIERS: GUARDIAN #1
Written by Grant Morrison
Art and cover by Cameron Stewart

Grant Morrison joins forces with collaborator Cameron Stewart (CATWOMAN) for a 4-issue miniseries that weaves a tale of Guardian, a hero who’s the living masthead of the Manhattan Guardian newspaper — the only newspaper that lives up to its credo: “We don’t just report crime…we fight crime!”

After the accidental shooting of a child that resulted in his handing over his badge, ex-cop Jim Harper tries to get his life in gear by applying for the job of The Guardian after spending more than a year dealing with personal demons. But Jim quickly learns to be careful what he wishes for, as the new Guardian finds himself in a pitched battle with Subway Pirates! Will he survive the ride of his life through the unknown subterranean world of New York?

http://www.newsarama.com/DC/7Soldiers/Guardian1Covercopy.jpg

--AND--

SEVEN SOLDIERS: SHINING KNIGHT #1
Written by Grant Morrison
Art and cover by Simone Bianchi

Get ready for a miniseries best described as The Lord of the Rings meets The O.C.! Visionary writer Grant Morrison and artist Simone Bianchi (Marvel Italia’s Conan the Barbarian, The Ego Sum Trilogy) continue the 30-part SEVEN SOLDIERS saga with the 4-issue SEVEN SOLDIERS: SHINING KNIGHT, a modern fantasy epic!

Though twilight and red ruin falls on Camelot, the Knights of the Broken Table stand ready to battle the forces of the Beyond. Little do they realize that the only one within their spent and bloodied ranks who can save what remains of their world is 16-year-old Sir Justin, a teenaged warrior who, with his winged horse Victory, finds himself thrust into the maddening world of the 21st century to save the future of all mankind! And the best place to start the battle? Sunset Boulevard in Los Angeles, of course!

http://www.newsarama.com/DC/7Soldiers/SSSNCv1.jpg

[Lex]

Also, these are the covers to Klarion and Zatanna books (I'm assuming the first issues). I figured I'd post them now that I've figured out the board's Image feature... and because they're cool.

http://www.newsarama.com/DC/7Soldiers/Klarionnewcov1.jpg

http://www.newsarama.com/DC/7Soldiers/SSZCv1.jpg

[chicainery]

Also, these are the covers to Klarion and Zatanna books (I'm assuming the first issues). I figured I'd post them now that I've figured out the board's Image feature... and because they're cool.

http://www.newsarama.com/DC/7Soldiers/SSZCv1.jpg

I'm really digging the Zatanna cover.

[chicainery]

I am more and more tempted to wait for the trades on these.

I haven't decided yet, but $2.99 a comic x 30 comics = right under $90.

I know that:

Release Dates - Seven Soldiers #0 in Feb. Shining Knight #1 and Guardian #1 in March.

Are these first two mini's going to be over before the others start? Or are they planning on staggering them?

Of course, $2.99 for a Grant Morrison comic can be a bargain...so who knows what I'll do. Jeez, I'm a sucker for comics.

[Paradox]

Looks good, except I REALLY REALLY REALLY HATE that "The Manhattan Guardian" written on Guardian's chest. I'm sure it's SUPPOSED to look like a Tabloid newspaper header, but it just looks silly and out of place (and that's saying something when we're talking about a super-costume).

'Course, if that's ALL I have to bitch about, that ain't too bad. ;)

[GUTB]

And you thought it wasn't going to suck.

[NickVinson]

"Golden Age homages or Captain Marvel, which are the same thing. " - GUTB

wait... actually he has a point here.

[Paradox]

GUTB posts his usual:

And you thought it wasn't going to suck.

:rolleyes: .

[NickVinson]

But that's not the crux of his argument. It's that "JIM LEE SELLS!" yet somehow he feels this means sales = quality. That's even more disregardable.

I wonder how he feels about Jack Kirby.

[Lex]

Are these first two mini's going to be over before the others start? Or are they planning on staggering them?

I'm not sure. Morrison said that all 30 issues come out in the space of a year. But, I don't know if that year starts with Seven Soldiers #0 in Feb or the two mini's in March. He may keep it at two-at-a-time (except the last 4 months which would need to have 3 mini's). Or they could be staggered depending on how the issues connect to each other (but then we have to ask how many books can he writing in a month).

We might find out my in the April solicitations.

[SuperManny]

This is nothing but a vanity project. It's going to be boring and it's going to suck.

....and I'm betting you'll still pick it up and read it.

Or at least read it free at the comic book store? :)

[Mighty Quinn]

From DC's March Solicitations:

SEVEN SOLDIERS: GUARDIAN #1
Written by Grant Morrison
Art and cover by Cameron Stewart

Grant Morrison joins forces with collaborator Cameron Stewart (CATWOMAN) for a 4-issue miniseries that weaves a tale of Guardian, a hero who’s the living masthead of the Manhattan Guardian newspaper — the only newspaper that lives up to its credo: “We don’t just report crime…we fight crime!”

After the accidental shooting of a child that resulted in his handing over his badge, ex-cop Jim Harper tries to get his life in gear by applying for the job of The Guardian after spending more than a year dealing with personal demons. But Jim quickly learns to be careful what he wishes for, as the new Guardian finds himself in a pitched battle with Subway Pirates! Will he survive the ride of his life through the unknown subterranean world of New York?

http://www.newsarama.com/DC/7Soldiers/Guardian1Covercopy.jpg

--AND--

SEVEN SOLDIERS: SHINING KNIGHT #1
Written by Grant Morrison
Art and cover by Simone Bianchi

Get ready for a miniseries best described as The Lord of the Rings meets The O.C.! Visionary writer Grant Morrison and artist Simone Bianchi (Marvel Italia’s Conan the Barbarian, The Ego Sum Trilogy) continue the 30-part SEVEN SOLDIERS saga with the 4-issue SEVEN SOLDIERS: SHINING KNIGHT, a modern fantasy epic!

Though twilight and red ruin falls on Camelot, the Knights of the Broken Table stand ready to battle the forces of the Beyond. Little do they realize that the only one within their spent and bloodied ranks who can save what remains of their world is 16-year-old Sir Justin, a teenaged warrior who, with his winged horse Victory, finds himself thrust into the maddening world of the 21st century to save the future of all mankind! And the best place to start the battle? Sunset Boulevard in Los Angeles, of course!

http://www.newsarama.com/DC/7Soldiers/SSSNCv1.jpg

That Shining Knight cover is awesome!

[The Xenos]

Not caring much for Guardian or Knight. Clarion looks annoyingly creepy. Sook's Zantana cover looks awesome. Somehow his art there is reminding me of Sale, which is good. Think it's mainly the face. Well, I was gonna get that one anyway.

-Xenos

[NickVinson]

He looks like Conan. ON a flying horse.

I am soo there.

[Sharcque]

When I first read about this event, I was stoked!!! But I finally got around to looking at my new Previews today, and I see 2 individual Seven Soldiers limited series, which just totally turns me off. My initial intrigue was putting these characters together --- none of which has ever had a steady ongoing title by themselves. I relaly don't want to read 4 issues each about a new Guardian or this Knight of the Round Table guy either. However, I'll pick them up, hoping to be surprised..... :(

[Argonaut]

I am just happy that they are using the Guardian

[Apathy Boy]

Didn't DC say from the start that SEVEN SOLDIERS would be comprised of individual mini-series? I don't think any of the seven characters are even going to interact with each other directly.

(The solicitations for the first book-end suggest that there will be a "Seven Soldiers" team, but their members will not include the characters who star in the seven mini-series. Wacky.)

[Captain Blitz]

Two book ends, seven four-issue minis, makes it 30 issues. That´s it.

There will be a bigger picture, but Morisson said, that each mini stands on its own.

[Sharcque]

Sorry --- but I don't really wanna read any of the limited series about any of these characters by themselves. Been duped too many times lately into thinking b/c "X" writer is writing something, then it will have to be gold. These 7 characters all interacting together, I'd give it a try. And I know some of you will be saying, "Well, if they suck alone, don't you think they'd suck together?". No -- look at what Nicieza did with the New Warriors back in the early 90s.

[The Xenos]

I'm mainly interested in Zantana and maybe Clarion.

I am just happy that they are using the Guardian

Thing is I belive it's an new all different character.

-Xenos

[Lex]

Sharcque, when did you get the idea that this was a team book? From the beginning, Morrison has said that this is the superhero team that never meets. That's like the tagline for the whole thing.

And each of the mini-series should have a different feel to it. Zatanna is a road trip quest. Frankenstein sounds like a sci-fi action/advanture. Klarion will probably be a fun, magical romp. And Guardian is an urban superhero with a unique twist. Almost all of these books sound like unique stories that aren't seen in the rest of the mainstream comics market. To me, that alone is worth checking out.

[Lex]

I don't see any rule against bumping threads in this forum. I'd like keep this at least on page 2 so people have access to this info (and to stop missinformation from spreading).

[Argonaut]

Thanks for the information. I didn't know about the others characters in the series.

[Forsaken_One]

I think I'll wait for trade.

[GUTB]

Right from day one I patiently explained to you all that it was going to suck. ABout 90% of you attacked me.

Enjoy the vista of lame from your seat aboard the Pan-Crapular Express. Allllll aboard!

[Bat-Mite]

Right from day one I patiently explained to you all that it was going to suck. ABout 90% of you attacked me.

Not me! I completely ignored you because you were talking out of your ass... like... now.

[Dennis K]

I can't wait for this series to start, it sounds really intriguing.

[Argonaut]

So we have to wait until Feburary right.

[BoosterBronze]

I am SO torn up over this.

a: I NEEEEED to buy this because of my huge love for Morrison's "New X-Men" and current JLA:Classified.

b: I won't buy this because I don't give a toot about any of the characters.

If it wasn't such a huge commitment.

ARGGG!!!

[Lex]

Did anyone else get one of those free DC Horizon issues? The current one is all about Seven Soldiers. Unfortunately, it doesn't have any preview pages like other Horizon issues. But it does show the full cover for Frankenstein #1 (which is awesome!). It also shows the already seen covers along with Morrison's sketches of the characters that were recently in Wizard. And they include a Mister Miracle picture by Pascal Ferry that kinda looks like a cover, but the dimensions are all wrong. And then there is a pencil drawing of Bulleteer by Yanick Paquette that may or may not be for a cover.

I loved the cover for Frankenstein #1. It was so cool I wish I had a scanner so everyone else could see it. It just showed me that they picked the perfect artists for each of these characters. Doug Mahnke does great mosters. I remember an interview with Joe Kelly when he was taking over JLA. He said that he tried to write in monster-ish things to utilize Mahnke's talents. So, he's a great choice for Frankenstein.

And it also includes release dates for all the first issues

Zatanna #1 in April
Klarion the Witch Boy #1 in April
Mister Miracle #1 in September
Frankenstein #1 in November
Bulleteer #1 in November
(We already know Guardian #1 and Shining Knight #1 will be out in March.)

There was also an "introduction" to the series written by Morrison. I don't think it had any new info in it, but it was still cool. I may post it later.

[Lex]

I am SO torn up over this.

a: I NEEEEED to buy this because of my huge love for Morrison's "New X-Men" and current JLA:Classified.

b: I won't buy this because I don't give a toot about any of the characters.

If it wasn't such a huge commitment.

ARGGG!!!

Well, if you're unsure about this then maybe you should just try it out before commiting to the entire thing. Maybe get a #1 of one of the minis that is somewhat appealing. All the #1 issues are supposed to be complete origin stories. They might set up some of the plot for the other three issues, but the majority of it will be origin. Also, each individual mini-series is supposed to be a story in itself. You don't need to get all 30 issues to have a complete story. Yes, they all connect, but that doesn't mean you need to buy Shining Knight to get the complete story in Zatanna (for example).

[Santanico]

Even if it is a vanity project, I am so buying this. Because, damn it, if anyone deserves to be vain, it's Grant Morrison. (Also - yay, Klarion the Witch-Boy! Haven't seen that little scamp and his kitty-cat in ages.)

Though, waaaaait a minute:

Able to “regenerate” himself by adding on pieces of dead men, Frankenstein has the right arm of a black slave, and the left arm of the angel, Michael.

Isn't this a more or less direct steal from the obscure Marvel series, Terror Inc., wherein the title character assumed a kind of immortality via - yes - adding on pieces of dead men?

[Reptisaurus!]

I am such a huge Klarion the Witch Boy fan.

I'm a Kirby fan in general, but I'm especially a Klarion fan. He's possibly the single creepiest lookin' character I've ever seen in superhero type comics. Shame what the Young Justice crew did to him. Frazer and Morrison seem to "get" the character, though, preserving that attitude of subtle menace.

I'm a little more worried about the other two Kirby characters:

The Guardian was always a little less interesting than his sidekicks in the Newsboy Legion, and doesn't seem to have much to distinguish himself from all the other "take back the streets" type superhero vigilantes. Although if he comes up with a new take on the Superman/Spider-man crime fighting reporter archetype i'll be pleasantly surprised.

Mister Miracle is my single favorite Kirby character, probably my favorite DC character ever, and the original series is certainly in the running for favorite comic ever. And it seems like Morrison in not only giving us a new Mister Miracle, which is alright 'cause the Scott Free version was kind of a legacy character to begin with, but removing him completely from his symbolic context in the Fourth World. Even moreso than the Forever People, MM and Barda were the human face on the war between the Gods, the innocent casulty who can't *quite* escape from the world that made him.

Without this subtext there isn't much left to the character, in my opinion.

[Santanico]

The first time I encountered dear little Klarion, in the pages of The Demon, freaked me right the hell out, I can tell you. It was the first issue wherein we discover just what Teekl is, and what she is capable of. And what she is capable of, she does. To an innocent old couple. Off panel. With sound effects. While Klarion looks on, beaming angelically.

Shudder.

[Gingold]

I believe that the MM Morrison is using is Shilo Norman from Kirby's run on the series (he also resurfaced in Doug Moench's run on MM and had an adventure with the Giffen era JLA, and showed up recently as the director of some super prison)- so there's some connection to the old series. I actually like Morrrison's approach to this, he can work with the Mister Miracle as superhero escape artist concept without attempting to muck with the New Gods saga too much- thus leaving Kirby's vision intact but opening the concept up to a new direction.

[UniqueFrequency]

I believe that the MM Morrison is using is Shilo Norman from Kirby's run on the series (he also resurfaced in Doug Moench's run on MM and had an adventure with the Giffen era JLA, and showed up recently as the director of some super prison)- so there's some connection to the old series. I actually like Morrrison's approach to this, he can work with the Mister Miracle as superhero escape artist concept without attempting to muck with the New Gods saga too much- thus leaving Kirby's vision intact but opening the concept up to a new direction.

so Mr Miracle isn't Scott Free? i have no idea who Shilo Norman is, but i'd much have preferred it to be Scott Free

[BoosterBronze]

Well, if you're unsure about this then maybe you should just try it out before commiting to the entire thing. Maybe get a #1 of one of the minis that is somewhat appealing. All the #1 issues are supposed to be complete origin stories. They might set up some of the plot for the other three issues, but the majority of it will be origin. Also, each individual mini-series is supposed to be a story in itself. You don't need to get all 30 issues to have a complete story. Yes, they all connect, but that doesn't mean you need to buy Shining Knight to get the complete story in Zatanna (for example).

But the thing is with Morrison, is you cant read just one issue. Look at New X Men. When I read them, I thought a great many of the individual issues were crunk. "Fantomex? Who the hell is he and why do I care? Why is Cyclops in a strip club? This is garbage."

It was only after finishing the run, looking back that I began to see the brilliance in every aspect of the tale. That's proabably how Seven Soldiers will be, where the parts that seem lame at the time will pay off sometime in the next year or so.

[Reptisaurus!]

The first time I encountered dear little Klarion, in the pages of The Demon, freaked me right the hell out, I can tell you. It was the first issue wherein we discover just what Teekl is, and what she is capable of. And what she is capable of, she does. To an innocent old couple. Off panel. With sound effects. While Klarion looks on, beaming angelically.

Shudder.

*Awesome.*

(But freaky. Brrr.)

Which issue was it? I've got most of the Kirby/Demon stuff, but I don't think I have that one. Pretty-damn sure I'd *remember.*

It was freaky enough when Klarion slooooowwwwly erased the Demon from existence, and replaced him with an inhuman doppleganger.



I believe that the MM Morrison is using is Shilo Norman from Kirby's run on the series (he also resurfaced in Doug Moench's run on MM and had an adventure with the Giffen era JLA, and showed up recently as the director of some super prison)- so there's some connection to the old series. I actually like Morrrison's approach to this, he can work with the Mister Miracle as superhero escape artist concept without attempting to muck with the New Gods saga too much- thus leaving Kirby's vision intact but opening the concept up to a new direction.


Huh. I missed that. And almost totally forgot about poor Shilo. And I didn't know he got that much play after the end of Mister Miracle (vol. 1)

I feel better knowing this isn't going to be a total reboot, and that Scott Free will still be around.

Then again, it's kind of hard for me to respect a Mister Miracle who spent a whole issue asleep after bein' konked on the head.

[Santanico]

*Awesome.*

(But freaky. Brrr.)

Very. Which is why it's a pity that Klarion was basically played for laughs in Young Justice, and why I'm over-bloody-joyed that Morrison appears to be setting about making him truly creepy once again (albeit with a rebooted origin, but then, Klarion's origins were always a bit fuzzy, anyway).

Which issue was it? I've got most of the Kirby/Demon stuff, but I don't think I have that one. Pretty-damn sure I'd *remember.*

This was during the Grant era, in the '90s series; and I can't recall the exact ish, but it was definitely one of the early ones (in fact, I think it was Klarion's first appearance in that series).

[Lex]

There's an interview at Newsarama (http://www.newsarama.com/Road_Dec_04/Soldier_Eight.htm) with editor Peter Tomasi. It's about the behind-the-scenes process of making a project like this.

[mckracken]

The cast seems obscure just for the sake of it. Wont buy it.

[Lex]

The cast seems obscure just for the sake of it. Wont buy it.

That's kind of the point. Morrison is taking seven (and more if you include the guest stars) characters out of the DC archives and turning them into commercially successful properties.

[mckracken]

That's kind of the point. Morrison is taking seven (and more if you include the guest stars) characters out of the DC archives and turning them into commercially successful properties.


Thats an argument youve got there...I admit.

Still, Im not in the mood for new characters. And some of the conceptional designs dont appeal to me, sucessful in the future or not.

[Santanico]

A - they're not new. Not in the slightest. Quite the opposite, actually; the whole point is that they're basically neat concepts who've been languishing in Comics D-List Limbo for years, underdeveloped and gathering dust. B - the very fact that they are obscure is what makes them interesting and unpredictable; things can be done with them that couldn't, or wouldn't, ever be done with the big names.

[mckracken]

Except Zatanna, theyre totally new for me.

[Reptisaurus!]

Actually, does anyone have any information on the original Spawn of Frankenstein? Was it any good? The others I'm at least sort of familiar with, and I read some issues of Marvel's Frankensein book.

Also: Kent Orlando pretty much convinced me to hate Zatanna.


Too: the character -- by her very design -- was "anti-story," in that her sorcerous super-powers required that she chant everything backwards in order to effect her silly magickings. Whenever a reader's eye confronts a line of dialogue such as, say: "Yhw era uoy neve gnirehtob ot daer siht parc, yawyna...?", the inevitable result is that their eyes invariably cross; said reader stops, y'know, reading, in order to make the necessary translation(s); and the story, therefore, screeches to a dead halt, in turn. Not much in the way of actual "pay-off," given the ridiculous "lookit me"-ishness of the auctorial device in question, is it...? ;-)) [See page reproduction, below]

[iwarrior]

I've learned to skip over Zatanna's spell casting schpiels. :D

[Lex]

Really? I always thought trying to figure out what Zatanna is saying as the fun part.

[Lex]

Newsarama article with J. H. Williams III (http://newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26641)

[Bat-Mite]

Darn, if the splash page with The Whip had better resolution, it would make a kickass wallpaper.

[Paradox]

Man, do I love me some JHW III! I've been a big fan since Chase and since then, his work on Promethea has shown amazing improvement even over THAT!

[Lex]

DC has put up some art for the interiors of Zatanna #1 and Klarion #1 (Klarion is in color even!). If you don't have it, you'll need to download Acrobat Reader (http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html) to view these.

Zatanna #1 (http://www.dccomics.com/media/excerpts/2873_x.pdf)

Klarion the Witch Boy #1 (http://www.dccomics.com/media/excerpts/2872_x.pdf)

[Indigo Al]

Hmmm interesting - Zatanna looks like she's in group therapy

Klarion looks cool as hell. Can't wait for this project!

[mckracken]

Waiting for more previews to decide.
Possibly one with words...

[Lex]

Since Seven Soldiers #0 is being released next week, I thought I'd bump this thread.

[Lex]

Here are the covers and solicitations for Shining Knight #2 and Guardian #2, both being released in May:

http://www.newsarama.com/DC/May_05/SevenSoldiersShiningKnightC.jpg

SEVEN SOLDIERS: SHINING KNIGHT #2

Written by Grant Morrison
Art and cover by Simone Bianchi

Grant Morrison and artist Simone Bianchi continue the exciting bimonthly tale of the Shining Knight lost in the 21st century!

Justin — the Shining Knight — is now without his trusty steed Victory! After escaping from a police car on Sunset Boulevard, Justin is left to wander the toxic, sun-drenched backstreets of Los Angeles. Delirious and confused, it seems to Justin that the Sheeda won, creating a world of poison air and synthetic life! Now, with magical broadsword in hand, the Knight’s crusade begins anew!
On sale May 4 • 2 of 4 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US

http://www.newsarama.com/DC/May_05/SevenSoldiersGuardianCv2.jpg

SEVEN SOLDIERS: GUARDIAN #2

Written by Grant Morrison
Art and cover by Cameron Stewart

Grant Morrison’s towering SEVEN SOLDIERS saga continues in a bimonthly miniseries with stunning art by Cameron Stewart (SEAGUY)! The Guardian's encounter with the rival subway pirates NoBeard and AllBeard turns into a wild race through a labyrinth of secret Masonic subway tunnels underneath New York City. Their goal? To find a radioactive gem known as the Foundation Stone of Manhattan, an object that the dreaded Sheeda wish to possess and use for their own nefarious ways!
On sale May 18 • 2 of 4 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US

[Captain Jim]

I'm really torn here. Unlike most, I have never been a big Morrison fan. But these do look pretty cool...

[stealthwise]

Am I the only one who's not excited by this in the least?

[Bat-Mite]

Yes, you are alone now, and you will die alone.

[Lex]

Am I the only one who's not excited by this in the least?

Pretty much.

Well, seriously, I'm sure there are a lot of people who really don't care about it. But I'm guessing that they don't care about it enough to post.

So, stealth, nothing about any of the proposed minis interests you at all? I'm curious, why is that? Do you prefer comics with more established characters? Not a Morrison fan? I'm just wondering.

[Bat-Mite]

I'm sure there are a lot of people who really don't care about it. But I'm guessing that they don't care about it enough to post.


Yup. Most people don't care much, about the fact that they don't care, to go around believing that their complete lack of interest in a book they are not interested in is a fascinating conversation topic.

Hey, people! I don't give a darn. Lets talk about that.

[Lex]

Still on the fence about Seven Soldiers? I have two words for you: Subway Pirates!

Check it out! (http://newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28040)

http://www.newsarama.com/DC/7Soldiers/SSGR102_03.jpg

[the Monitor]

great post, Lex and I love the sig.

I had reached the end of my rope with mainstream superhero stuff and been combing my pull list deciding what was going to go and looking for some other stuff to replace it with...mostly trades to fill in older holes in my collection or some new stuff like Scott Pilgrim from Oni. Then I started looking at what was coming out over the next year....Grant Morrison's Superman....Frank Miller on a mainstream Batman....7 Soldiers....the 20th Anniversary of Crisis (which....admittedly has led to problems over the years, but was the event that cemented my love for the DCU in the first place).

I'm trimming away titles all right but it looks like I'm adding even more superhero goodness! I've just decided to let my fanboy run free this year....

(trouble is I've already gotten myself addicted to a couple of trade series too....Age of Bronze and Bacchus....)

[Sean Whitmore]

I'm willing to follow anything Morrison does, but something about the format (bookends and a bunch of mini series) seems a bit unwieldy. What do you think the chances are that this whole story will be collected in a nice big hardcover when all is said and done? Money in the bank?


SEAN

[Captain Jim]

So, are these all completely new versions of these seven characters, or just some of them, or what?

[Bat-Mite]

Zatanna: Same ole Zatanna we know and love.

Klarion the Witchboy: Complete retcon and restart. He already apologized to Peter David for erasing Sins of Youth out of continuity.

Spawn of Frankestein: Same as Klarion I would guess.

Mister Miracle: Shiloh Norman (Sorta Teenage sidekick of the original since the last issues Kirby made) gets the costume. For some reason, so far unexplained, he only has vague memories of Mister Miracle and Oberon.

Guardian: New guy with and old name. Doesn't retcon the original out of the picture as far as I know.

Bulleteer: New girl with old name. Although, for the life of me, I can't recall any original Bulleteer.

Shining Knight: Hard to say. In the first issue of 7 soldiers, we see a picture of all the old Seven Soldiers, including the original Knight, so he has not been retconned away. On the other hand, this guy doesn't seem to be the same guy but has the same origin story. Beats me.

[Sean Whitmore]

Zatanna: Same ole Zatanna we know and love.


Neat. Don't mess with success.


Klarion the Witchboy: Complete retcon and restart. He already apologized to Peter David for erasing Sins of Youth out of continuity.


Peter David should be thanking Grant for erasing that story. :)


Spawn of Frankestein: Same as Klarion I would guess.


He existed before this?


Mister Miracle: Shiloh Norman (Sorta Teenage sidekick of the original since the last issues Kirby made) gets the costume. For some reason, so far unexplained, he only has vague memories of Mister Miracle and Oberon.


I remember him from, like, one issue of the Giffen Justice League. That's cool, Grant has a relative blank slate to work with rather than the history-heavy Scott Free.


Guardian: New guy with and old name. Doesn't retcon the original out of the picture as far as I know.


That's a shame, I like Jim Harper. And his backstory is simple enough to ignore without any retconning.


Bulleteer: New girl with old name. Although, for the life of me, I can't recall any original Bulleteer.


Wasn't there a Bullet-Man in the Golden Age? And his daughter took up the name Windshear over in Shazam? Any relation?


Shining Knight: Hard to say. In the first issue of 7 soldiers, we see a picture of all the old Seven Soldiers, including the original Knight, so he has not been retconned away. On the other hand, this guy doesn't seem to be the same guy but has the same origin story. Beats me.


To be completely honest, the Shining Knight has never really done anything for me. I wouldn't care if Grant rebooted the old one or created an all-new one.


SEAN

[Lex]

There's also going to be a bunch of guest stars. Some are revamps, but most follow previous DC continuity.

In Seven Soldiers #0, we'll see the Golden Age Vigilante (unchanged) and the Spider who was featured in Hawkman a couple years ago (Grant specifically mentioned liking that portrayal enough to keep it). Though, I'm not sure about all the other characters in this issue yet.

Cameron Stewart's interview at Newsarama mentioned a revamp of the Newsboy Legion and the DC Horizon feature mentioned a really obscure character who is getting a make-over (can't think of his name right now).

[Lex]

great post, Lex and I love the sig.

Hey, thanks!

[stealthwise]

Pretty much.

Well, seriously, I'm sure there are a lot of people who really don't care about it. But I'm guessing that they don't care about it enough to post.

So, stealth, nothing about any of the proposed minis interests you at all? I'm curious, why is that? Do you prefer comics with more established characters? Not a Morrison fan? I'm just wondering.

Yeah... It's mostly because I can't afford to give all of these a shot, yet still don't want to feel like I'm missing out on something. I was wary about Identity Crisis, got into it late, got excited and then... splat.

I'm not a huge fan of Morrison either, I think that he gets far too much adulation from what I've read of his actual work and I don't know anyone outside of the online community who really likes his stuff that much, so it's a tough call. I also hate feeling obligated to buy all 30-some odd issues to have the sense of understanding what the hell is going on in this whole thing. I'd like to get excited about this, as it seems more interesting than last year's "events" and certainly more intriguing than what I've heard of House of M and Countdown, but I can't really bring myself to care that much.

[Reptisaurus!]

I'm not a huge fan of Morrison either, I think that he gets far too much adulation from what I've read of his actual work


No. No he doesn't.

He's by far the most conceptually imginative creator who's regularly working in comics today. No one else is, well, close to being close.

(Note the qualifiers "conceptual" and "regularly." Alan Moore, Art Speigelman, and Chris Ware are all more adept at finding creative ways to actually tell a story. And Kim Deitch (And out of all the currently active creators that I've read, *ONLY* Kim Deitch,) is certainly as creative and as subtextually deep as Morrison. But his work is scattered, hard to find, and I haven't actually seen anything new from him in a couple years.

Now you may be looking for stuff other than epic creativity and sociological subtext in your comics. That's fine.

But that doesn't mean that Morrison doesn't deserve the praise he's getting... Well, as far as I know, he's absolutely and unchallengably the best at what he does.

[stealthwise]

But that doesn't mean that Morrison doesn't deserve the praise he's getting... Well, as far as I know, he's absolutely and unchallengably the best at what he does.

Meh. I'd argue, but I guess I haven't read enough of his work to properly judge. Seaguy was a bit of a mess, his JLA was decent, his Hellblazer stuff was ok, Animal Man was good and Invisibles (from what I've read) is solid, but not one bit of it grabs me in the slightest. I'm not about to go out and buy more just to prove you wrong. :)

[Sean Whitmore]

I'm not about to go out and buy more just to prove you wrong. :)


Well, if you ever do decide to, pick up WE3. :) I can't imagine you'll be sorry you did.


SEAN

[Doug Strange]

He existed before this?There was a back-up series in the 70's "Phantom Stranger" book, but I don't think this is the same character.I remember him from, like, one issue of the Giffen Justice League. That's cool, Grant has a relative blank slate to work with rather than the history-heavy Scott Free.He actually partially took over the Miracle mantle in one of the solo series from the early 90's, around the same time as that issue you mention. He also became a warden at one of the major super-prisons of the DCU a few years back. I thought that was kind of a silly development, to be honest, and am glad to see it (I hope) gone.That's a shame, I like Jim Harper. And his backstory is simple enough to ignore without any retconning.Except I think he's dead, isn't he? But I guess his backstory would fix that, too, wouldn't it?Wasn't there a Bullet-Man in the Golden Age? And his daughter took up the name Windshear over in Shazam? Any relation?Could be.To be completely honest, the Shining Knight has never really done anything for me. I wouldn't care if Grant rebooted the old one or created an all-new one.I'm totally with you on that one. Just never got him. I'm betting I'll like this one, though.

[Dr. Hfuhruhurr]

Meh. I'd argue, but I guess I haven't read enough of his work to properly judge. Seaguy was a bit of a mess, his JLA was decent, his Hellblazer stuff was ok, Animal Man was good and Invisibles (from what I've read) is solid, but not one bit of it grabs me in the slightest. I'm not about to go out and buy more just to prove you wrong. :)

I'd recommend his run on Doom Patrol, especially the first trade paperback "Crawling from the Wreckage." Good stuff.

EDIT: I'm getting senile. I just realized I've already made this recommendation in this very thread.

Never mind. I'm going back to bed.

[stealthwise]

Well, if you ever do decide to, pick up WE3. :) I can't imagine you'll be sorry you did.


SEAN

What's that about again? I remember hearing about it, but wasn't interested. I am getting his All-Star Superman when it comes out.

[Sean Whitmore]

What's that about again? I remember hearing about it, but wasn't interested.


Better than me trying to do it justice without giving eveything away, here's the very review that made me try it out in the first place. :)

The X-Axis (http://www.thexaxis.com/misc/we31.htm)


SEAN

[stealthwise]

Better than me trying to do it justice without giving eveything away, here's the very review that made me try it out in the first place. :)

The X-Axis (http://www.thexaxis.com/misc/we31.htm)


SEAN

Interesting. I guess.

Is it in TPB yet?

[Bat-Mite]

Not yet. It hasn't even been announced yet. It will probably get one, though.

[Lex]

Newsarama just posted some more of the finished preview pages for Seven Soldiers #0 here (http://newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28151). It show a couple more of the members of Vigilante's team.

[Lex]

I'm not sure if I should start a new thread or not, but I'll just continue it here for now.

So, did anyone pick up Seven Soldiers #0 today? What'd you think?

I thought it was awesome! There were some parts that I didn't understand at first, but I got it after reading it again. The team interactions were really fun. Most of them didn't seem to be very superheroy, except for Vigilante and the Whip.

And in the back of the book, it listed the dates for every single issue up to the last bookend. Near the end, the schedule gets weird.

[Dr. Hfuhruhurr]

We probably should start a new thread, but I'm lazy, so I'll just add here that I think it rocked. SPOILERS.......




















My only problem with Morrison is, and he does this all the time but it really annoyed me here, that he sets up such intriguing characters only to kill them off before we've even had a chance to explore them. Where did that guy get the TNT-Dyna-Mite rings? How is Gimmix related to Merry Pemberton? Wasn't there another "Boy Blue" at one time? And I was really digging the interplay between the Whip, Spyder and Vigilante. Oh, well...

Interesting though that this mysterious group would choose this collection of misfits as the "Seven." If the situation is really that dire, wouldn't you choose, you know, someone better?

In any event, count me in. 30 issues is a lot, but I'm sufficiently intrigued that I won't be able to wait for the tpb.

[IamtheRock3]

what you think of the first issue

[BoosterBronze]

Well, first off, I feel a lucky that I read JL Classified, because Morrison's last arc served as an introduction to Seven Soldiers. I wish someone had mentioned that before, someone being DC.

Spoilers

I'm a little disapointed that just as I got interested in the cool new characters they were all iced.

End Spoilers

I'm fascinated by where this will go, but honestly the sheer volume of titles intimidates me, and I may wait 18 months to buy the trades.

[Forsaken_One]

I'm with Booster on this one, the ending was rather dissapointing and after buying it I just kinda felt like "why did I pay money for this?" Had it been a 25 cent issue like some Batman or Superman crossovers have (or Hunter/Killer) to start them off I would probably continue to pick up the rest of them. As is I feel like they bilked me out of my money and I should just wait for trade, if then.

I'm also dissapointed that Spyder wasn't killed by Shade. Really, if he has to be killed by anyone it should be Shade.

[Bat-Mite]

If the situation is really that dire, wouldn't you choose, you know, someone better?

Dude, this is the DCU! If you are better, then you are already in the Titans, the JLA or wherever. If you have a group called Seven Soldiers of Victory, then you have to settle with whatever the heck you can find.

In any event, count me in. 30 issues is a lot

You don't have to buy them all. Every miniseries is self contained.

[Naldo]

I confess, I picked this issue up because of all the hype, but I guess I just don't know enough of the background of these characters, because I was TOTALLY lost the whole way through.

I had no idea who anyone was or what/why they were doing what they were doing.

The art was cool and some of the action scenes were too, but over all I doubt I'll pick up another issue.

[Expletive Deleted]

I confess, I picked this issue up because of all the hype, but I guess I just don't know enough of the background of these characters, because I was TOTALLY lost the whole way through.As far as I know, everyone except Spider and Vigilante was a new character and didn't have a background.

A team of second-rate (or lower) heroes, manipulated by seven mysterious figures, gets together to hunt a giant spider. They beat the spider, but the whole thing was a set-up, and they're all killed.

Seemed pretty straight-forward, to me.Well, first off, I feel a lucky that I read JL Classified, because Morrison's last arc served as an introduction to Seven Soldiers. I wish someone had mentioned that before, someone being DC.I could be mistaken, but I think Nebula Man's involvement and the tie between the two stories was mentioned in several interviews with Morrison leading up to this event.

[FanboyStranger]

I'm also dissapointed that Spyder wasn't killed by Shade. Really, if he has to be killed by anyone it should be Shade.

Regarding your spoiler, that is a different Spider, or as he appears in this issue, "I, Spyder". There is another Ludlow Spider running around the DCU having lost an eye at the hands of Green Arrow in Hawkman.

[The Adventurer]

Nebula Man? Isn't that the guy Courtney beat the pants off in Stars and S.T.R.I.P.S?

[Forsaken_One]

Regarding your spoiler, that is a different Spider, or as he appears in this issue, "I, Spyder". There is another Ludlow Spider running around the DCU having lost an eye at the hands of Green Arrow in Hawkman.
Well... that certainly takes away one of my problems. All the others are still out there and will probably stop me from doing anything more than browse the rest of the minis, but it's good to know that one problem's sloved. :)

[Doug Strange]

SPOILERS.......



















Interesting though that this mysterious group would choose this collection of misfits as the "Seven." If the situation is really that dire, wouldn't you choose, you know, someone better?I'll lay you money there's a significance.

I don't know exactly what it is, but my first pet theory (in a series) has it that we haven't seen the last of these six heroes (even if we did witness a violent end or two).

[Dr. Hfuhruhurr]

You don't have to buy them all. Every miniseries is self contained.

Yeah, I know that, but I'm a comic book geek, right? Like I'm going to collect part of the whole maxiseries. That's crazy talk. :D

[Dr. Hfuhruhurr]

SPOILERS.......



















I'll lay you money there's a significance.

I don't know exactly what it is, but my first pet theory (in a series) has it that we haven't seen the last of these six heroes (even if we did witness a violent end or two).


That's probably true. Grant seemed to be having a lot of fun with Vigilante and it would be kind of a shame to ditch the Whip and Spyder so soon after their introduction.

[Dr. Hfuhruhurr]

Well, first off, I feel a lucky that I read JL Classified, because Morrison's last arc served as an introduction to Seven Soldiers. I wish someone had mentioned that before, someone being DC.

Spoilers

I'm a little disapointed that just as I got interested in the cool new characters they were all iced.

End Spoilers

I'm fascinated by where this will go, but honestly the sheer volume of titles intimidates me, and I may wait 18 months to buy the trades.

Doug Strange mentioned this on another thread, but it's his theory (and I tend to agree) that


we've not seen the last of these 6, despite their rather gruesome fate at the end of this issue.


And to echo what ED said, this is kind of Morrison's pattern. He's always dumping the reader in the middle of the action without spending a lot of time setting things up. It will become clearer as the series moves on, I'm sure.

EDIT: to add spoiler tags per FO's suggestion.

[Forsaken_One]

My thing is while it may become clearer as the series moves on I'm not interested enough, after being dumped into the middle of it, to continue reading to find out. As a first issue this just failed to hook me, and for the price it was asking that's unacceptable.

Also if you want to do spoilers you can do it in spoil tags. [spoil ]text here[/spoil ] without the spaces between the brackets and L

[Tony Bang]

I had high hopes for this issue (and the series and general) and Morrison didn't disapoint. Spider was one the coolest new characters introduced this decade. This is the first work of JH Williams III that I've seen, I have to say he is one of the best artists I have ever seen.

[IamtheRock3]

man sometime I wish DC did what IF in a style of marvel. You know taking Events in continuty and telling what if it happen differnt because I would REALLY want to see some of these guys more


But hey they were cool while they lasted. Great art and story telling. If they can make me care in a couple page about charcters that before I didnt give a flying F about

Then taking some of these other old charcter and stretching them out each in a mini series should be cool

[Santanico]

SPOILERS...



































My only problem with Morrison is, and he does this all the time but it really annoyed me here, that he sets up such intriguing characters only to kill them off before we've even had a chance to explore them.

I dunno - maybe I'm Robinson Crusoe on this one, but I actually thought that was a neat little twist. Introduces an element of unpredictability, you know? Also, it rather amuses me to think that the Seven we're actually going to be hanging out with for the rest of the year are actually the last minute replacements.

[Indigo Al]

Absolutely fantastic! I friggin loved it. Weird, pulpy, I can't wait to see how it unfolds.

I love these C-Listers...they're all about the inherent fetishism in and around superheroes. Gimmix and the Whip both reminded me of The Cobweb from Alan Moore's Tomorrow Stories. Long live superheroines in high heels!

I really don't see the point in getting all "Comic Book Rumbles" about this - screw the JLA, screw any ultrapowered big guns of the DCU. Bring on the bug killing spray paint and the ghost suits!

[Expletive Deleted]

I really dug this issue. The look at lower tier heroes and their motivations, the reinvention of "classic" properties in the new context, the giant trans-dimensional spiders and invading sentient universes, the Seven Unknown Men and their home in Slaughter Swamp . . . man, words can't express how cool that was.

Williams really outdid himself here, too. Although after PROMETHEA, you can sort of assume that'll happen. I don't know how much was Williams and how much was Morrison, but the design of the book was incredible.

[TJ Shoun]

I don't know how much was Williams and how much was Morrison, but the design of the book was incredible.

I agree.

Visually, Williams and Stewart knocked this outta the ballpark.

Look at how Stewart's use of color conveyed the heat of the desert... or even how his use of color really fragmented the cover in a pattern so that it was broken yet you're eyes are drawn to the six figures inside the "7" figure.

I probably explained that horribly but you get my jist, right?

Also, I like that there's the occasional extra border to accompany the occasional yet subtle comment about comics and superhero teams in particular. It continually reminded me that I was reading a comic. But unlike Watchmen or Seaguy - other works that actively recruit the reader to self-examine the comics reading experience - I'm not sure what Morrison's message was here.

Maybe I'm just too slow to pick up on it. Either that or the theme I'm grasping for hasn't been fully offered yet.

Regardless, I liked how it was done. It felt like I was reading a comic directed by Tarantino.

I'm in for the long haul. :)

[Captain Jim]

I didn't realize until I got on the net tonight that I didn't see this book at the comic store today. Likely he underordered and sold out immediately; seems to happen a lot with new books there. I'll have to double-check tomorrow.

[Terence Stewart]

Read this last night and was absolutely enthralled. Morrison's words dazzled, and William's art captured the moods he set magnificently (with the added embellishment of Stewart's colours of course).

I especially liked how William's changed his style to capture the western feel (reminding me of the work of Doug Wildey) in the middle section.

The motley gathering of 5th stringers were engaging, especially Gimmix, and I was sad to see them go, though it was neccessary to the plot. This may just be one of Morrison's most densely plotted series yet, and I'm looking forward to how the story continues through the six mini-series (some featuring characters that I don't have much empathy for, but I might be surprised).

[Psychoweasel]

I loved the book, but was genuinely surprised to see the Nebula Man again so SOON. After JLA: Classified, I honestly expected him to vanish into the woodwork with all Morrison's other good-but-forgotten ideas. Remember Solaris, the renegade sun? The remains of Wonderworld? The Whirlogog?

All that untapped potential...it's actually good to finally see something followed up on so well.

I don't mind the characters dying...although the Whip may not be dead. The hunters might keep the females and the Spider for breeding stock. You don't want your game totally dying out...it ruins the hunt.

Also, because the Nebula Man is still around, does that mean that the Ultramarine Corps failed?

[JeffreyWKramer]

Iis the first work of JH Williams III that I've seen, I have to say he is one of the best artists I have ever seen.

Do yourself a favor, then. Pick up other Williams goodness such as PROMETHEA (all of it), CHASE (if you can find it) and last summer's Juli Schwartz tribute MYSTERY IN SPACE one-shot.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I have no idea where Morrison is gonna go with this project, and I love it.

Visually, Williams, Stewart and Klien (and the lettering and coloring were *very* effective and important in this issue, don't ignore them for a moment) knocked one out of the park here. This is a beautiful book.

In terms of the story and the writing style, Morrison also hit a bases-loaded homer here, full of great and distinct characters, nice twists and a sense of mystery and dread. I don't recall Greg Sanders even *having* a personality, honestly, and here Morrison makes me want to go read more Vigilante... and definitely more about this intriguing new Whip.

Good book. I'm in for all 30 parts, and have dropped several books to make room on my pull list.

Grade: A

[Bat-Mite]

and definitely more about this intriguing new Whip.

Someone has been a naughty boy, yes?

[JeffreyWKramer]

Someone has been a naughty boy, yes?

Nah, I prefer to be the one using the whip on the naughty girls. But Morrison makes the Whip a fascinating character in these few pages. Has anyone ever done a better job with the superhero-as-thrill-junkie concept? In as few pages, yet? Not that I can recall.

[redlantern2051]

Yeah, I know that, but I'm a comic book geek, right? Like I'm going to collect part of the whole maxiseries. That's crazy talk. :D
You and me both, brother. You have to go a little crazy! Morrison rocks!

[Hatter]

Oh yeah, way to go, Morrison. Hook readers on your brand-new Maxi-series by making the first issue fustratingly obtuse, and introducing a bunch of characters that don't have anything to do with anything, since they all died.
Yeah, really accessible.

Still, art was nice.

[Forsaken_One]

Oh yeah, way to go, Morrison. Hook readers on your brand-new Maxi-series by making the first issue fustratingly obtuse, and introducing a bunch of characters that don't have anything to do with anything, since they all died.
Yeah, really accesible.

Still, art was nice.
Well, at least SOMEONE agrees with me.

[Lotus]

Oh yeah, way to go, Morrison. Hook readers on your brand-new Maxi-series by making the first issue fustratingly obtuse, and introducing a bunch of characters that don't have anything to do with anything, since they all died.
Yeah, really accesible.

Still, art was nice.


Isn't this pretty much Morrison's Modus Operandi anyway though? Should anyone be surprised when he kills off half (or all) of the heroes that you just read about in the previous 20 odd pages? It's what he does.

[Doug Strange]

I'll lay money with anybody here that the story isn't over for Vigilante, the Whip, Blue Boy, Dyno-Mite Dan, Gimmix, and the Spyder, despite what we saw.

We know that at least Dalt has more story to come. And it's doubtful that Morrison would drop the hint about the 7th guy not showing up and then do nothing with it.

Even if they are all dead, their part in the story isn't over. We'll probably have to wait for the other bookend to find that out, but I'd bet my lunch money on it.

[Shellhead]

Some of the first comics that I ever read were Justice League of America #100-102, when the JLA teamed up with the JSA to rescue the original Seven Soldiers of Victory from being scattered across the timestream of Earth-2. All told, about 33 heroes appeared in those 3 issues. Those were the simple days of the Silver Age, so the story was very easy to follow. Each Soldier was rescued by a team of 3 heroes, either 2 JLA plus 1 JSA or vice versa. Three JSA members showed up late and went on a side mission while a de-powered Diana Prince (WW) held down the fort.

Compared to that, Seven Soldiers #0 was like taking acid and getting lost in the funhouse, then doing a few laps with bumper cars. It was wild, exciting and fairly confusing. I will need to read it a few more times to get more of a handle on it, and I probably won't fully grasp what I read until this maxi-series finally wraps up. If then.

There were some similarities. I'm not so sure that these new Seven (six) Soldiers are dead, so much as in limbo, like the originals were after their fateful battle with Nebula Man. They all seemed a little gimmicky in concept, like the originals, and yet found themselves together for a short time before falling in cosmic battle, like the originals. Seriously, the original Seven Soldiers, aka Law's Legionnaires, lasted for a just a few appearances together.

Then there will be these seven newer heroes featured in the minis that comprise this series. I have little to say about them so far, but I hope that the minis wil be easier to follow than this first bookend,

[Apathy Boy]

Oh yeah, way to go, Morrison. Hook readers on your brand-new Maxi-series by making the first issue fustratingly obtuse, and introducing a bunch of characters that don't have anything to do with anything, since they all died.I don't understand why people are getting hung up on this. Morrison has said from the start that each bookend and the individual mini-series were going to be complete stories in and of themselves. And that none of the characters in the seven mini-series were going to ever meet. So what were you expecting to happen?

And it's not like the bookend did nothing to set up the other mini-series, either. It's established the threat and introduced a few sub-plots (e.g. who was the seventh Soldier?).

Besides, I'm not buying that the New Seven Soldiers are dead. (After all, who's going to be in the second bookend?) So isn't it kind of premature to be saying that these characters won't have anything to do with the rest of the story?

Anyway, I wasn't blown away by the issue, but I am intrigued. I like how Morrison seems to be using a different writing style - it's much more restrained and character-focused. Like he's trying to take a more literary approach, as opposed to just tossing a bunch of big ideas together. Kind of had the feel of James Robinson at times.

And the book was really accessible. I think people who complain otherwise have just been conditioned to treat anything Morrison writes as confusing.

[Reptisaurus!]

Some of the first comics that I ever read were Justice League of America #100-102, when the JLA teamed up with the JSA to rescue the original Seven Soldiers of Victory from being scattered across the timestream of Earth-2. All told, about 33 heroes appeared in those 3 issues.

I flat out love those issues. One of my two or three favorite JLA stories of all time. (And, IIRC, Morrison credits those exact same three issues with getting him hooked on American comics.)

..

So I didn't get it, because I don't have any money.

*Sigh*

And now this *really* sucks, cause I've always liked the Whip, the Vigilante, and Merry: Girl of 1,000 Gimmicks.

Although when I went in my shop to browse and look sad, it had sold out anyway.

[kossori]

Oh... my...
Proof that Grant Morrison isn't washed up after all.

I just read Seven Soldiers of Victory #0 and it was found to be... very good.
Great introduction of characters, incredibly "new-reader" friendly and... best of all... it tells an entertaining story!
I actually want to see what's happening next.

It appears that Morrison works best on characters that aren't predefined. If he played role-playing games, he'd most likely be making his own characters rather than playing with pre-generated heroes. Looks like it holds him back if he has to bend his stories around a character that's pretty much been chiseled in stone.

That's why Doom Patrol worked. Why Animal-Man worked. And why JLA and X-Men, while not bad, did not measure up to his best works.

And it's why Seven Soldiers does work.

I just wonder if he can keep the interest up throughout the entire run.

To read the rest of my review, with pictures, links and previews, go here (http://reprep.blogspot.com/2005/02/review-seven-soldiers-of-victory.html).

[Puffy Treat]

I hope the new Whip doesn't remain dead. Her ambiguous motives for being a vigilante and the wild fantasies that lay behind her desire to join a super-hero team made her both perverse yet strangely endearing.

[Paul McEnery]

Neat!

Irony on the title: Not a lot of Victory there.

JHW really stretching on the art styles. Very cool.

Clearly the Seven Unknown Men couldn't use the JLA because the Nebular Man had already sussed them out in JLA Classified (and I got the definite feeling from Classified that there was a serious set up with the Nebular Man).

Maybe the Seven Soldiers snuffed it because there were only six of them. Or maybe because the functioning directly as a team is the wrong approach. (I sense a deep message coming on...) And maybe Spyder Gimmix and Whip will survive, though I wouldn't count on it, with Spyder's totem animal line.

BTW: Anyone else catch the Slaughter Swamp swipe from Millar's Swamp Thing?

[Shellhead]

BTW: Anyone else catch the Slaughter Swamp swipe from Millar's Swamp Thing?

Not sure what you mean, since I generally ignore Millar's work.

Slaughter Swamp is where Soloman Grundy came from, which was an appropriate reference for a group book that has a connection to pre-Crisis Earth-2.

[Bat-Mite]

Slaughter Swamp has been around a lot before Millar's run in Swamp Thing. In Swamp Thing itself, it showed up during Veicht's run.

[Shellhead]

Yeah, that's what I'm getting at. Wasn't Solomon Grundy a golden age DC villain? That makes Slaughter Swamp a fairly old story reference.

[Karl J. Barnes]

Loved it and I am anxious for the mini-series, especially Zantana's and the Shing Knight.

[Bat-Mite]

Wasn't Solomon Grundy a golden age DC villain?

True, but that doesn't mean Slaughter Swamp is as old as him. Maybe it was a late addition to his origin story, or something. I don't know that, I only know it's older than Millar's run in Swamp Thing.

[Karl J. Barnes]

SPOILERS.......



















I'll lay you money there's a significance.

I don't know exactly what it is, but my first pet theory (in a series) has it that we haven't seen the last of these six heroes (even if we did witness a violent end or two).


I agree. Plus, The Whip was soo cool. I don't think that Morrisson would off her so soon in the series. The two mini-series that I am really looking forward to are Shining Knight and Zantana.

[Justin D.]

I really dug it. Of course, the art is friggin' beautiful. The colorist did a damn good job too. Hell, just look at the layout of Whip and Vigilanted when they're first riding through the desert. Beautifully done. Also, besides just simply knowing how to draw with amazing detail and intensity, Williams knows how to tell a story through art. Vey nicely laid out.

As for the story itself, I thought it was a great intro story. While Morrison did make us like the characters and then kill them off (supposedly), I don't think the characters themselves, at least the ones we've seen so far, are the point of the story. The issue was to introduce the plot, or conflict present, and the level of depth given to explore it and other aspects that go along with it. We see well-developed charactes unable to face a strong conflict and know that more, and hopefully better armed, characters will have to come to face the conflict in whatever way Morrison will lay out. The fact that Morrison might have killed off the characters he introduced in the first bookend shows he's willing to take risks he deems necessary to create the best story possible.

I'm looking forward to all of the minis, some more than others, coming out of this, but it'll strip me for cash, I'm sure. I'll probably sell them once I've read them all in order to get the most-likely collected trade of it all later.

[Paradox]

I'm not Morrison's biggest fan. I disliked most of the latter part of his JLA, thought what I read of Marvel Boy was unmotivated and banal, thought his JLA: Classified arc was fun but flawed, but I LOVED this one.

I loved Invisibles, Animal Man and what I've read of his Doom Patrol, though, so it's not like I HATE his work totally.

This was fun. 'Course, I knew going in that this wasn't the team we were going to be dealing with, so them "dying" didn't bug me. Especially since there's some obvious reality futzing going on here, so I too doubt their complete demise.

And, yes folks, there was a "Boy Blue", (http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Labyrinth/7393/wwlbb.html) he just had a "Little" before his name at the time.

Frankly, I was surprised at how well defined these characters were (not really Grant's strong suit) and how much I liked them. Yes, let's see more of them before this is over.

[Shellhead]

... thought what I read of Marvel Boy was unmotivated and banal...

That's it! It's been bothering me for days why The Whip seemed so familiar. She's basically the same character as that dominatrix assassin from Marvel Boy, minus the sick relationship with her father.

[Sk8maven]

Quote:
Wasn't Solomon Grundy a golden age DC villain?

True, but that doesn't mean Slaughter Swamp is as old as him. Maybe it was a late addition to his origin story, or something.

No, no, no. Slaughter Swamp and Grundy were created together, in All-American #61, by Alfred Bester. That dates them both back to, I believe, October 1944.

Maven

[Karl J. Barnes]

Quote:
Wasn't Solomon Grundy a golden age DC villain?



No, no, no. Slaughter Swamp and Grundy were created together, in All-American #61, by Alfred Bester. That dates them both back to, I believe, October 1944.

Maven

Alfred Bester wrote comic books? Wow.

[shadowwolf47]

Wow, I'm just about the only one that hated this book.


Oh well, I guess I've saved some money by not having to get the other 29 issues.

[Shem the Penman]

Alfred Bester wrote comic books? Wow.

Yep. You can credit, among other things, the Green Lantern oath ("In brightest day, in blackest night ... ") to Bester.

[Karl J. Barnes]

Yep. You can credit, among other things, the Green Lantern oath ("In brightest day, in blackest night ... ") to Bester.

Sweet! Now I really got to hunt down Bester's Demolished Man...

[Lex]

Here's (http://www.popcultureshock.com/reviews.php?id=3931) the first four pages of Shining Knight #1 with amazing art by Simone Bianchi!

[Kid Seven]

These Shining Knight pages looked awesome! Does anyone know anything about Bianchi? I wanna way I've heard the name before but I have no idea from what.

[clt123456789]

I'm worried about Zatanna.


she has always had a certain fetish/kink factor to her costume i mean c'mon her original costume was essentially a french maid uniform!! so i say trick her out as full fledgled domintrex..that was sorta what the opened cleavaged, pony-tailed getup from the 70s was anywho won't it?...sorry i've always had a thing for women in fishnets and pvc..do that make me a bad boy? lol...laters taters. :evilsmile

[Indigo Al]

she has always had a certain fetish/kink factor to her costume i mean c'mon her original costume was essentially a french maid uniform!! so i say trick her out as full fledgled domintrex..that was sorta what the opened cleavaged, pony-tailed getup from the 70s was anywho won't it?...sorry i've always had a thing for women in fishnets and pvc..do that make me a bad boy? lol...laters taters. :evilsmile

Trust me, I quite approve of the PVC and fishnets. Not so much a "dominatrix" look, because that was covered by The Whip (and wouldn't it be fun to see a Rumble between The Whip and Oubliette/Exterminatrix from Morrison's Marvel Boy series? too bad I don't post on Rumbles anymore).

I'm more worried about what I read about the Zatanna mini's plot - a reality series, a super-therapy group, a "detox" - i just hope she's not mired in sleazy snarky loserdom. That's more Millar than Morrison.

I'm loving 7 Soldiers though.

[Terence Stewart]

Quick question (not sure if this has been talked about yet);

The Cyrus Gold (the perv) mentioned at the begining, when Alias The Spider is in Slaughter Swamp, is that a reference to Solomon Grundy?

[Expletive Deleted]

The Cyrus Gold (the perv) mentioned at the begining, when Alias The Spider is in Slaughter Swamp, is that a reference to Solomon Grundy?Yeah, Cyrus Gold is Solomon Grundy's "real" name.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Alfred Bester wrote comic books? Wow.I believe he wrote some early LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES tales, among others.

His comics stories were not his best work by any stretch of the imagination, but it demonstrates the close connection between many of the early SF and comic greats - often by way of Julius Schwartz, who was an important figure in both worlds.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Sweet! Now I really got to hunt down Bester's Demolished Man...

THE DEMOLISHED MAN and THE STARS, MY DESTINATION are two of the greatest early SF novels. I can't recommend either highly enough.

[bert]

Wow, I'm just about the only one that hated this book.


Oh well, I guess I've saved some money by not having to get the other 29 issues.

well. . .

I didn't "hate" it, but I was seriously underwhelmed, and don't plan on picking up all the other issues either.

I liked it until about the last 3 pages. . then the entire thing just fell apart for me. I had no emotional connection, and I thought the "Harrowing" idea to just be boring. I suppose I'm supposed to wonder who these 7 beings are. . .but I find that I just don't care.

as for the Team. . . although I did enjoy the "gag" about there only being 6 of them (after all that talk about the power of 7), why WERE there only 6 of them?

eh. . . .

[Sk8maven]

Alfred Bester wrote comic books? Wow.

Yep - back when he was mastering the writer's trade. He worked on "Green Lantern" for a couple of years, and some other DC house properties as well. Two of his lasting contributions are Solomon Grundy and the rhyming Ring oath:

"In brightest day, in darkest night,
No evil shall escape my sight.
Let those who worship evil's might
Beware my power - Green Lantern's light".

Yes, that was Alan's oath originally, long before there ever was a Hal Jordan.

Maven

[Sk8maven]

Cyrus Gold is Solomon Grundy's "real" name.

Well, sort of. Grundy both is and isn't Cyrus Gold. Gold was killed and his body was thrown into Slaughter Swamp (each retelling gives different circumstances and a different motivation), and the rotting vegetable matter formed around his bones to create Grundy. (That's why Alan has such a hard time with Grundy - he's mostly wood.)

Grundy does not remember ever being Gold, but - at least per Starman #34(?) - Gold lives again vicariously through Grundy.

Maven

[Dr. Hfuhruhurr]

well. . .

I didn't "hate" it, but I was seriously underwhelmed, and don't plan on picking up all the other issues either.

I liked it until about the last 3 pages. . then the entire thing just fell apart for me. I had no emotional connection, and I thought the "Harrowing" idea to just be boring. I suppose I'm supposed to wonder who these 7 beings are. . .but I find that I just don't care.

as for the Team. . . although I did enjoy the "gag" about there only being 6 of them (after all that talk about the power of 7), why WERE there only 6 of them?

eh. . . .

I assume that the "missing Soldier" will be explained/developed as the series goes on and I also think that the fact that this first group had only 6 members was a reason for their quick defeat, because they lacked the "power of 7."

I'd encourage you to give it a chance. After all, you can't expect Morrison to show all his cards in Part 1 of a 30-part story.