SEVEN SOLDIERS: Speculation & Spoilers

[the film freak]

I think we should set down a rule right now, no untagged spoilers until 4 weeks after the issue ships. Anyone think that's fair?

How about not visiting the thread before you read the comic? It clearly says Spoilers in the thread title.

Tagging is annoying.

[Hellstormer]

hellstormer, GREAT signature.
Thank you, which part?

[shaxper]

How about not visiting the thread before you read the comic? It clearly says Spoilers in the thread title.

Tagging is annoying.

Because any time you ask any question about Seven Soldiers (even just release dates), the topic gets merged into this thread and you have to wade through spoiler-filled discussion to find replies to your post.

[Desaad]

Scott's the new Highfather? Wow, when did this happen?

Way back after Genesis, when Highfather Izaya was killed by Ares and Scott was given his full God Powers.

But Takion took over instead, and Scott gave his powers to the Wizard Shazam and became Mr. Miracle again.

So, long story short, Scott was never actually the ruler of New Genesis, just in line to BECOME the ruler. It was a storyline that spanned a few issues, but nothing groundbreaking.

Certainly Scott's current status is normal Mr. Miracle, last really explored in Orion 25 (Final Issue :( )



Astro

[Desaad]

So exactly what date is the final issue of Seven Soldiers coming out?

Can't wait for it!

[the film freak]

Because any time you ask any question about Seven Soldiers (even just release dates), the topic gets merged into this thread and you have to wade through spoiler-filled discussion to find replies to your post.

You can find release date info at other places. Like DCs website or Diamond. If there's other questions you can ask the moderator to allow you to start a Non Spoiler thread. I just think it's a tad unfair for people who bought the comic forced to put spoiler tags in a thread clearly marked "spoilers." They are annoying to put in and hard to read.

[shaxper]

You can find release date info at other places. Like DCs website or Diamond. If there's other questions you can ask the moderator to allow you to start a Non Spoiler thread. I just think it's a tad unfair for people who bought the comic forced to put spoiler tags in a thread clearly marked "spoilers." They are annoying to put in and hard to read.

I think it's infinitely more inconvenient to plea with a moderator every time you want to make a spoiler-free post than to ask others to use tags.

[the film freak]

I think it's infinitely more inconvenient to plea with a moderator every time you want to make a spoiler-free post than to ask others to use tags.

Asking people to use tags for four weeks after the issue comes out? Or until the trade comes out? Kind of inconvenient. Maybe the first few days. There should be limits.

How many spoiler free posts do you plan to make? Seriously. It's one issue coming out and one trade. Are these really hard pressing questions? If you're wondering when the book might ship can't you post it in the "Shipping sticky" up top. Or go to the DCU forum. Or just throw post saying "Listen don't want to go to the spoiler thread. Can someone answer this question." Or just post in the spoiler thread and skip all the posts that don't quote your question. It's not rocket science.

If you really don't want to know stay away from the thread clearly marked "SPOILERS." Spoiler tags are a pain to read especially if it's paragraphs of stuff. And the html is annoying. Most of the people going to that thread have bought the book and read it and want to talk about it in depth. If you have non spoiler questions go elsewhere or just don't read spoiler stuff.

[Expletive Deleted]

Preview! (http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/7Soldiers/finale/SSov01Pre.html)

So close . . .

[Ryan Day]

Wow. Williams is really, really good. The Kirby riff is awesome, even if the Bianchi page seems a bit off.

[Adem]

I can’t wait for this issue to ship I’ve waited patiently and it looks like it was well worth it. Also once this is done Williams can go back to Detective Comics.

[StrikeForce Albert]

I Just Came!

[Tobias March]

Sweet zombie jesus.

That sure is purty.

[IamtheRock3]

wonder how will the fit it in 32 pages

[Paul McEnery]

The next 12 days just got an awful lot longer.

Thank God I've got a birthday to celebrate in the middle. Those two days should just vanish out of my brain.

[berk]

This finale has so much working against it for me - the protracted delay that's drained much of my interest in the story; Morrison's intervening involvement with DC's latest marketing "event"; the increasingly overt connections between Seven Soldiers and the DCU; and, unfair as it is, the fact that I'm so disgusted and generally disheartened by Neil Gaiman's Eternals series right now that the sight of Orion and Metron in the preview really takes me out of the Seven Soldiers story and starts me wondering how DC, if not Morrison himself, will manage to screw up these Kirby concepts once again.

The long wait I can probably get over by reading the issues again; Morrison's other DCU work I should be able to forgive by recalling to mind my own and everyone else's ongoing mercenary activities; the connections with the DCU I'll try to ignore though sheer willpower; and the New Gods - I dunno; the preview hooked me, with that one exception. Not that I disliked how those characters were written in this one brief appearance - quite the contrary - but just that they've been so misused so consistently for the past, what, 30+ years that I've become conditioned to react to any sight of them outside the original stories with the anticipation of yet another in a so far endless series of debacles. No matter what Morrison does with them, I think I'd prefer he and every other creator would just leave them alone and let them rest in peace.

Sorry about all this; I'll try to get back into the Seven Soldiers frame of mind before posting in this thread again.

[Doug Strange]

Okay, so now I want an Aurakles miniseries.

[Zenith23]

That's looking damn fine to me, I'm hoping this will blow away the stink left behind by Infinite Crisis

[Desaad]

wonder how will the fit it in 32 pages

According to Williams himself, the solicit is incorrect.

Its 40 pages of story.




Astro

[Desaad]

This finale has so much working against it for me - the protracted delay that's drained much of my interest in the story; Morrison's intervening involvement with DC's latest marketing "event"; the increasingly overt connections between Seven Soldiers and the DCU; and, unfair as it is, the fact that I'm so disgusted and generally disheartened by Neil Gaiman's Eternals series right now that the sight of Orion and Metron in the preview really takes me out of the Seven Soldiers story and starts me wondering how DC, if not Morrison himself, will manage to screw up these Kirby concepts once again.

The long wait I can probably get over by reading the issues again; Morrison's other DCU work I should be able to forgive by recalling to mind my own and everyone else's ongoing mercenary activities; the connections with the DCU I'll try to ignore though sheer willpower; and the New Gods - I dunno; the preview hooked me, with that one exception. Not that I disliked how those characters were written in this one brief appearance - quite the contrary - but just that they've been so misused so consistently for the past, what, 30+ years that I've become conditioned to react to any sight of them outside the original stories with the anticipation of yet another in a so far endless series of debacles. No matter what Morrison does with them, I think I'd prefer he and every other creator would just leave them alone and let them rest in peace.

Sorry about all this; I'll try to get back into the Seven Soldiers frame of mind before posting in this thread again.

I think Walt Simonson's Orion series proves that good stories can be done with these characters, actually.

[Paul McEnery]

This finale has so much working against it for me - the protracted delay that's drained much of my interest in the story; Morrison's intervening involvement with DC's latest marketing "event"; the increasingly overt connections between Seven Soldiers and the DCU; and, unfair as it is, the fact that I'm so disgusted and generally disheartened by Neil Gaiman's Eternals series right now that the sight of Orion and Metron in the preview really takes me out of the Seven Soldiers story and starts me wondering how DC, if not Morrison himself, will manage to screw up these Kirby concepts once again.

The long wait I can probably get over by reading the issues again; Morrison's other DCU work I should be able to forgive by recalling to mind my own and everyone else's ongoing mercenary activities; the connections with the DCU I'll try to ignore though sheer willpower; and the New Gods - I dunno; the preview hooked me, with that one exception. Not that I disliked how those characters were written in this one brief appearance - quite the contrary - but just that they've been so misused so consistently for the past, what, 30+ years that I've become conditioned to react to any sight of them outside the original stories with the anticipation of yet another in a so far endless series of debacles. No matter what Morrison does with them, I think I'd prefer he and every other creator would just leave them alone and let them rest in peace.

Sorry about all this; I'll try to get back into the Seven Soldiers frame of mind before posting in this thread again.
The New Gods were a surprise? Did you not read Mister Miracle or something?

[Steve Brady]

Wow. Williams is really, really good. The Kirby riff is awesome, even if the Bianchi page seems a bit off.

Even when he's mimicking, there's still of bit of him in it, which is maybe why it seems off.

But I dunno, because I'M NOT GONNA LOOK AT IT. Nosiree.

[berk]

The New Gods were a surprise? Did you not read Mister Miracle or something?I know, I know ... It's just a Pavlovian response at this point: I see the New Gods and I start getting suspicious. Years of reinforcement will do that.

But to get away from the negative stuff, the preview looks fantastic.

Did anyone get the impression that when the narrator said "Don't worry, I haven't forgotten about you. But I have to deal with a deadline first," that was Morrison talking to the reader, and "the deadline" referred perhaps to his duties on "52"?

[ultramandingo]

speaking of drooling , dang! sckrew 52 , imagine a morrison - williams new gods book!!! crazy cool.

[Sandy Hausler]

speaking of drooling , dang! sckrew 52 , imagine a morrison - williams new gods book!!! crazy cool.

If it were anything like Mr. Miracle, I think I'd pass.

Sandy Hausler

[Ryan Day]

Even when he's mimicking, there's still of bit of him in it, which is maybe why it seems off.


Actually, I think the problem is that there's not enough Williams - it looks more like a straightforward attempt to ape Bianchi's style. As opposed to the Kirby pages, which look like Kirby filtered through Williams' vision.

[Shellhead]

If it were anything like Mr. Miracle, I think I'd pass.

Sandy Hausler

Same here. I am a big fan of Grant Morrison, but his take on the Fourth World was more depressing than interesting. It was like Morrison latched onto one name, "Armaghetto", and just pushed it to the point of absurdity. New Jack City reimagined as New God City. Re-casting those classic Kirby characters as ganstas, hoes and rappers was clever but shallow.

[Ryan Day]

Same here. I am a big fan of Grant Morrison, but his take on the Fourth World was more depressing than interesting. It was like Morrison latched onto one name, "Armaghetto", and just pushed it to the point of absurdity. New Jack City reimagined as New God City. Re-casting those classic Kirby characters as ganstas, hoes and rappers was clever but shallow.

He didn't really reinvent them, though - he just framed them in a reality Shiloh woudl be able to understand. I liked the idea, but it certainly wouldn't stand up to a long-term narrative.

I think the Williams pages here are hinting at Morrison's real New Gods ideas.

[Michael P]

Fourth trade in January! Yay!

[Jack Zodiac]

Yay, now I have to wait until January to read the first issue of the series itself! Why in the seven hells did they have to include that in the trade and make me wait three months to even look at the actual mini-series? Jerkasses. I think I'm gonna' wind up just collecting 'em in trades.

Rassum frassum... :mad:

[Expletive Deleted]

I posted this in the "shipping list" thread for this week, but I figured I'd post it here, too.

If your local shop gets its comics from Diamond's Memphis facility (as I'm pretty sure mine does), you won't get SEVEN SOLDIERS #1 until next week.

DC put out a press release (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=88787) about it.

[mdg1]

Yay, now I have to wait until January to read the first issue of the series itself! Why in the seven hells did they have to include that in the trade and make me wait three months to even look at the actual mini-series? Jerkasses. I think I'm gonna' wind up just collecting 'em in trades.

Rassum frassum... :mad:

Um...

SEVEN SOLDIERS #1 is the last issue of the project, not the first issue of an ongoing (or even a mini)

[Sean Walsh]

I posted this in the "shipping list" thread for this week, but I figured I'd post it here, too.

If your local shop gets its comics from Diamond's Memphis facility (as I'm pretty sure mine does), you won't get SEVEN SOLDIERS #1 until next week.

DC put out a press release (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=88787) about it.

Ah. I missed that bit about the 1 particular facility yesterday.

I was so happy when I saw it on the shelf at lunchtime.

Didn't buy it, but was happy. :p

[Jared_Humpherys]

This is my 2nd major comic-related "getting-screwed-over" event today. First the Ultimate Alliance ame and now this! AAAAARGGGHHHH!

[jade_nova]

Ah. I missed that bit about the 1 particular facility yesterday.

I was so happy when I saw it on the shelf at lunchtime.

Didn't buy it, but was happy. :p

Your lucky. My store was one of the ones that got screwed.

[ultramandingo]

7 soldiers #1 .........oh that hurt my brain

[The Purple Skull]

Anybody tried to complete the crossword puzzle yet?

[Expletive Deleted]

I feel like I need to read everything again in publication order. And then backwards. And then randomly shuffled.

I mean . . . guh!

[Aaron King]

I tried the crossword, yeah, but didn't finish it. I need to dig the rest of my Seven Soldiers comics up to reference them.

Klarion was scary, huh? And the Shilo Norman/Dark Side part lost me. The art there (Williams III imitating Williams II) was the worst, I think. So the next New Gods series will have Klarion with a Fatherbox in control of Frankenstein versus a resurrected and unkillable Mister Miracle. I loved the rest of it, though. I liked the character breakdowns.

Is Zachary Zor now Solomon Grundy? Did Grant the Mystery Man go back in time, drown Cyrus Gold, then put the Grundy Coat on Zor? I assume that's what he meant, holding that coat that had been sewn by so many others (a reference to how comic characters are communally created and modified across the years, right?)

So... the Seven Mysterious Men of Slaughter Swamp (all Grant? Grant as author of each 7S miniseries?) modified Spyder to place him as assassin to Glorianna. I don't know what that means, really.

[Expletive Deleted]

Anybody tried to complete the crossword puzzle yet?Only a few of 'em.

Across
1
3
4
7 - Gloriana
9

Down
1 - LOA
2
4
5
6
7 - GM (possibly?)
8 - One

[The Purple Skull]

A spear was mentioned as one of the seven treasures. Was Bulleteer's car crashing into gloriana meant to symbolize the spear, or was it the arrow fired by I, Spyder?

[IamtheRock3]

this issue confuse the HECK out of me

maybe it was a long delay. But can anyone explain in idiot terms what the heck happen

Why was Darksied a Black Gangsta Dude, and the new gods homless. What they had to do with each other. What actully killed Shedda..What were the dice

what were the tailors

etc

[Expletive Deleted]

A spear was mentioned as one of the seven treasures. Was Bulleteer's car crashing into gloriana meant to symbolize the spear, or was it the arrow fired by I, Spyder?I took "the spear" to mean the chain of events. So both.

But, hey, I'm probably 180 degrees off base.

[Ryan Day]

I need to re-read this a couple dozen times, followed by a comprehensive review of the entire series. But some initial thoughts:

I'd agree that the "spear" is the chain of events, to which several of the soldiers contributed.

J.H. Williams is just incredible. Amazing. Awesome. Fantastic. I don't know why he doesn't just pretend to be Jim Lee and make tons of money drawing Wolverine or something, but I'm glad he doesn't.

I think Mr. Miracle was the weak link, as that mini didn't cover enough of the backstory. Aurakles should have been huge in that series, but instead he was crammed into one panel. A lot of the history in the opening pages should have been covered in both Mr. Miracle and Shining Knight.

I initially skipped past the newspaper pages, just glancing at them and assuming they were ads.

Morrison came really, really close to pulling it off. Not quite, but I still really enjoyed it.

[Desaad]

I took "the spear" to mean the chain of events. So both.

But, hey, I'm probably 180 degrees off base.

I agree. I thought the spear was basically Causality/Fate.

[noh-varr]

Absolutely loved the issue. I don't see how anyone sees it as being all that confusing seemed pretty straight forward overall, though did bounce around a bit but the story made sense. Klarion gets both dice and now the sole possesor of the fatherboxes leads the Sheeda with a currently mind controlled Frankenstein (do want to see Frankie rebel though). Mister Miracle comes gets killed by Darkside to free Aurakles. Darkside was a black gangster because as it stated the whole series of events (Mister Miracle's mini) was the New Gods way to slowly reveal to Shiloh their real world. It's also why there were the duel word baloons coming out of Darkside, one what he was saying as a human and another what the great Darkseid was truly saying. I, Spyder is the 8th soldier who's not a soldier (or whatever it was called near the end of the issue) who used the literal spear on Glorianna, but it was the events that was the spear, plus so was the Bulleteer she was said to be "the spear not thrown" in her series.

That's all off the top of my head, I read it many hours ago there's lots more, but it was fantastic issue. I thought the use of the newspaper pages as story and then the Guardian jumping from the paper into the comic was brilliant. Plus he got hsi girl back! "HERE KISSES GIRL - Story and pictures inside"

Oh and Klarion made a quick jump from soldier to king! His final panel cracked me up, all hail King Klarion!

[Aaron King]

Maybe the spear is "basically" causality and fate, but remember that it's name is both "Love" and "Vengeance." So... do these two forces drive the Soldiers?

[Desaad]

Maybe the spear is "basically" causality and fate, but remember that it's name is both "Love" and "Vengeance." So... do these two forces drive the Soldiers?

Don't they? Aren't they what START wars to begin with?



Astro

[ultramandingo]

who was the guy talking to the head?

[noh-varr]

who was the guy talking to the head?

That was the Dr from the third issue of Manhatan Guardian, the one who built all the robots including his wife/girlfriend who was the head itself.

Hmm I remember a lot from this series and haven't read it since it was released.

[Messiah Complex]

Jorge Control, from Century Hollow, Guardian # 3. The head is his wife.

Now that this book is over, anyone have any theories on who the 7 unknown men are? Morrison has said they are DC characters but he gives no clues. Of course they're all "Grant," but I think think they could be actual characters as well, it's just up to us to fill in the blanks. I feel like Ganthet could be one, but there's already the quintessence. Who are the powerful little bald guys in the DC U? Mxzpktlk?

Anyone seen any interviews with Morrison now that the books over?

---

HIDEOUS MUTANT SAYS: bwaaaaiinssss.....

[Wesley Dodds]

Sigh. I'm another one who missed out this week.

If anyone wants to spoil the story, please do.

[Reptisaurus!]

Sigh. I'm another one who missed out this week.

If anyone wants to spoil the story, please do.

Noh-varr did a pretty good job.

It's not, like, one of those stories where stuff happens in order for a reason. Spoilers are kind of useless here.

[Wesley Dodds]

Well, I like the idea of the Bulleteer just running Glorianna over. Way to save the world!

[mdg1]

Only a few of 'em.

I can add some more

EDIT: Over on Barbelith, we've finished it.

Across
1. Lena
3. Bors
4. Badde
7. Gloriana
9. Open

Down
1. Loa
2. Abednigo
4. Be
5. Do
6. Lance
7. GM
8. One

[dreddy]

Some thoughts:

The Bulleteer is a direct descendant of Aurakles - notice the focus on her red hair cf Aurakles' red hair in the opening pages. The spear Aurakles threw 42,000 years ago represents his direct descendant. [Notice how her last name is Harrower, she has brought her own Harrowing to the Sheeda]

Klarion was really never one of the 7 Soldiers - he betrays everyone and I,Spyder becomes the 7th Soldier in the end (good twist) betraying Gloriana.

Some Questions:

How does Zatanna's spell affect the rest of the book [Seven Soldiers Strike!]

And how does Mister Miracle's release of Aurakles affect the chain of events?

Who had the Hammer?

[Aaron King]

This just hit me as I was in the shower this morning, trying to figure out who the Seven Mysterious Men were and why they would interfere with the Sheeda. So:

Seven Soldiers as Critique of the Comic Book Creative Process
The Sheeda in this metaphor represent the post-modernists and deconstructionists, the people who have come to comics to scavenge and take apart and leave nothing behind. They swarm in when art is at its highest, coming to take it apart and leave it joyless.

Using this, the previous Harrowings can have a few meanings. Aurakles, as Herakles, could very well be the first super-hero, coming at, you know, whatever BC when the Greeks came up with him. However, drawn the way it is, the era of Aurakles could also represent Kirby's creative outflow. People often say that he was a man before his time, and look at Aurakles, struggling amidst the Neanderthals. Aurakles and the other advanced Neanderthals create a time engine and toss it into the future, where Melmoth the Scavenger King picks it up and copies it with his art. Kirby, along with others in the '60s, create this huge body of work that catapault the medium forward, and only now, in the past couple of decades, is it being picked apart.

(Funnily enough, Mr. Miracle suffering and dying all the time could represent the multiple failures of people to do Kirby-esque things, especially with his characters. Maybe now that Mr. Miracle's taken Aurakles's place and learned the true secrets of the Life Equation, Grant thinks he can properly bring the New Gods forward).

I don't know what Arthurian times represent in this metaphor. Edit: Maybe they represent the British comics Renaissance of Warrior, 2000AD, and early Vertigo before they fell to the deconstructionists.

However, the Seven Mystery Men, then, could all be Grant, or they could be anyone working to create new and modern things in comics. They create lives. They create I, Spyder to infiltrate and kill the Sheeda to keep them from destroying modern works. This might be one of Grant's spells. Zachary Zor could represent Grant's own deconstructionist time, coming in and making the Newsboys of Nowhere Street into rapists and boring old people. After all, according to Grant, they could be brothers. He used to have his own top hat until he stole someone else's.

So, the entire series is Grant's spell, building on the old comic world without scavenging it into an empty husk. All of the Soldiers existed before he got his hands on them, but instead of just hollowing them out, he built on or made new ones. As "was written by a gifted, brave young writer who recently lost her life... 'the themes may seem unfamiliar but trust me, those are human stories, writ large, dressed in capes and riding magic carpets to other universes, and if life with the Super-Cowboys taught me anything it taught me this... Every day is mythology when you use your X-ray vision to really, really look." (That's my own bolding, there.)

And just look at Grant's other recent outing in The Authority: turning an everyday man into a superhero story. This is Grant's outlook on the new comic world. Maybe this is why the New Gods have been downsized into something more human, too.

A few other things I don't understand: The Newsboys come in at one point to tell Zor, "I don't care who you are, we'll beat you somehow!!" Then there's a Shining Knight panel. Then there's a close-up on someone's face saying, "What did I tell you? We'll beat you somehow." Is this Grant's face? Was Grant a member of the Newsboys of Nowhere Street? I thought all of them were accounted for. Also, what was with the Dogfather?

[the film freak]

Sigh. I'm another one who missed out this week.

If anyone wants to spoil the story, please do.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around it.

A lot of stuff happened.

[mdg1]

I wrote these spoilers up for another board. It may whet your appetite.

Guardian finds Carla, gets happy ending.
Justina and Vanguard reunite. She ends up surviving, with a hint of a great destiny in her future, and our past.
Misty tries to betray Zatanna, and is in turn betrayed by Klarion, who takes the Fatherbox (those dice) and Frankenstein to the future, to become the Sheeda King.
Zatanna casts a spell which helps save the day.
Gloriana is shot by Spyder's arrow (it turns out he was never on her side at all), and crashes to the ground, where she is run over by Alix's car.
Shilo sacrifices his life to free Aurakles from Dark Side. He gets better.

[Messiah Complex]

Zor was the Terrible Time Tailor who destroyed the original Newsboys. The face saying "we'll beat you somehow," is Brain Baby from the Guardian (who pretty much got lost in the shuffle. I guess Guardian dropped him somewhere safe.)

Questioning what Mr. Miracle's sacrifice and Zatanna's spell accomplished is one thing, but what about the Guardian? What exactly was his essential function in defeating the Sheeda? I guess his was the more generic, protect-the-people side of the battle.

Anyone know who all the people from Zatanna's self-help group were? Annotations online?

---

SATAN SAYS: YOU! You used to have your own top hat.

[mdg1]

http://barbelith.com/faq/index.php/Zatanna_1

Jake's perspective is that of the ordinary human. Note he's the only Soldier without ANY powers to speak of.

[Messiah Complex]

I agree. He's an everyday human wrapped up in this more than any of the other characters. That's why I think he is the only one that has no direct interaction with any of the 7 treasures, unless he does and I've forgotten. Also, I think it might be that Brain Baby is really the soldier, but he needs a stand-in body, and that's Jake.

Speaking of weapons:
the sword- Shining Knight has it.
the cauldron- Melmoth switches his blood for it's waters.
Fatherbox- Klarion has it.
The Merlin- Zatanna either has it or has freed it.
Pegazeus- or his descendents, live in the Himalayas.
The Hammer-

So, who has the hammer? The only hammer in the books if I'm not mistaken is the one that Bors uses to split the atom in the 3rd issue of Shining Knight. It is said they are rending an ancient covenant. It's implied that the covenant is not to mess with the atoms, but maybe the covenant is actually the use of the Hammer, an imperishable treasure given by the gods, for destructive purposes. Perhaps this treasure was destroyed because of it's misuse. This is one of a few instances where we're told there are meant to be seven of something and we see six.

[Clairaudient Freedom Soldier]

The next DC crisis will involve everyone vs. Klarion, k--g of the s-eed-!

[Tobias March]

The next DC crisis will involve everyone vs. Klarion, k--g of the s-eed-!

Will it though? Or will he become the next head of the sheeda so as to manipulate events todays randomly. Will he be a fairly random villain/hero, with the DCU crowd only just catching up with him? OR will he simply amuse himself with the Sheeda, allowing them to progress beyond their 'endtimes'?

[Shellhead]

I need to re-read this a couple dozen times, followed by a comprehensive review of the entire series. But some initial thoughts:

I'd agree that the "spear" is the chain of events, to which several of the soldiers contributed.

J.H. Williams is just incredible. Amazing. Awesome. Fantastic. I don't know why he doesn't just pretend to be Jim Lee and make tons of money drawing Wolverine or something, but I'm glad he doesn't.

I think Mr. Miracle was the weak link, as that mini didn't cover enough of the backstory. Aurakles should have been huge in that series, but instead he was crammed into one panel. A lot of the history in the opening pages should have been covered in both Mr. Miracle and Shining Knight.

I initially skipped past the newspaper pages, just glancing at them and assuming they were ads.

Morrison came really, really close to pulling it off. Not quite, but I still really enjoyed it.

We're on the same wavelength, or very close. I agree with everything in your post, and I've been a fan of Williams since his brilliant work on Promethea.

But I was a little more disappointed with the finale than you seem to be. Seven Soldiers #1 was weirder than the final episode of The Prisoner, and yet fraught with so much symbolism and meaning that i couldn't just dismiss it. I suppose it was impossible to tell a coherent story *and* touch base with so many characters introduced in the earlier issues *and* continue to introduce more weird ideas.

Williams did a great job here, showcasing his amazing flexibility and familiarity with so many styles. But I think that actually hurt this final issue somewhat, as it proved to be another disruptive element, and one that particularly threw off the pacing as I read through. One or two changes might have been sufficient to emphasize different time periods or paradigms or something.

A couple of random things... I paused to give the crossword puzzle a try. I figured out just enough of it to see that Grant Morrison was playing fair and not just throwing another visual into the story. And my favorite line in the whole issue: "Neanderthal super-scientists launch a fearsome time engine into the abyssal reaches of a distant future."

Overall, Seven Soldiers is still a very impressive work. Morrison should have the ability to really pick his projects in the forseeable future, and I hope he takes full advantage of that. In particular, I would love to see him write the Fantastic Four, Swamp Thing or even a new version of the Defenders.

[Shellhead]

Will it though? Or will he become the next head of the sheeda so as to manipulate events todays randomly. Will he be a fairly random villain/hero, with the DCU crowd only just catching up with him? OR will he simply amuse himself with the Sheeda, allowing them to progress beyond their 'endtimes'?

Probably none of the above. With the exception of Joss Whedon, nobody has had the courage to try to follow up on Morrison's wild and cool ideas. Unless Grant himself revisits the characters and themes of Seven Soldiers some day, Klarion is probably lost to us. And Morrison seems to enjoy starting things more than finishing them, rapidly thinking up exciting ideas and then moving on quickly to other exciting ideas.

[sly_kat]

Probably none of the above. With the exception of Joss Whedon, nobody has had the courage to try to follow up on Morrison's wild and cool ideas. Unless Grant himself revisits the characters and themes of Seven Soldiers some day, Klarion is probably lost to us. And Morrison seems to enjoy starting things more than finishing them, rapidly thinking up exciting ideas and then moving on quickly to other exciting ideas.

Isnt Klarion in Robin in a couple months?

[Peter M.]

Isnt Klarion in Robin in a couple months? Yeah with Frazer on art.

[Desaad]

Klarion has already appeared as King of the Sheeda in 52 # 25. Felix Faust tried to sell his soul to him, and he refused, being such a used up commodity.

I still believe that the Spear was causality rather than the Bulleeter, if only because the Bulleeter herself didn't really DO much in this instance to kill Glorianna. Anyone could have done what she did, put in that situation. Its not as if she was any sort of chosen one, at least that I can discern.

Something that just struck me about Zachary Zor...Alan Moore? Grant Morrison has long criticized his deconstructionist tendencies, and said that he essentially went on a quest to become him (Grant Morrison).

[Evan Waters]

Will it though? Or will he become the next head of the sheeda so as to manipulate events todays randomly. Will he be a fairly random villain/hero, with the DCU crowd only just catching up with him? OR will he simply amuse himself with the Sheeda, allowing them to progress beyond their 'endtimes'?

Yeah- the panel gave me the impression of a young boy on a power trip, which doesn't necessarily imply supervillainy.

I still believe that the Spear was causality rather than the Bulleeter, if only because the Bulleeter herself didn't really DO much in this instance to kill Glorianna. Anyone could have done what she did, put in that situation. Its not as if she was any sort of chosen one, at least that I can discern.

This seems to strengthen the "Spear" connection for me, actually. The Spear doesn't decide where it's going. It's simply thrown.

[Brady]

I thought the spear was superheroes in general. Aurakles 'cast' it by being the first and laying the seeds for future superhumans. Bulleteer and Sally, two superhumans, are brawling, causing their car to go astray and run over the Sheeda Queen.

Gloriana Tenebraedied because two superheroes were having a rather pointless brawl, which is something they tend to do.

[Indigo Al]

Man, what a beautifully well done finish. Just like the end of Invisibles.

Me, I can't wait to see the new Round Table that Justine founds....

[Reptisaurus!]

Klarion was really never one of the 7 Soldiers - he betrays everyone and I,Spyder becomes the 7th Soldier in the end (good twist) betraying Gloriana.


I don't agree. His thievin' of the dice stopped the creation of a NEW Sheeda Queen.

[Indigo Al]

I don't agree. His thievin' of the dice stopped the creation of a NEW Sheeda Queen.

Furthermore, SPOILERS I don't really view Misty as a traitor either, unless there's something I missed. She seemed sincere that she wanted to become the Sheedha Queen to stop the Harrowing.END SPOILER

[Desaad]

Didn't she say that when she became the new Sheeda Queen that she'd have to harrow the world as well, though?

[sgt pepper]

Obviously much of this is meant to be symbolic, but I ask for what purpose? Is it symbolism in the service of the story, or symbolism for symbolism's sake? I say it's the latter (because I can't imagine what any of this could have to do with the story at hand).

[sgt pepper]

Furthermore, SPOILERS I don't really view Misty as a traitor either, unless there's something I missed. She seemed sincere that she wanted to become the Sheedha Queen to stop the Harrowing.END SPOILER

I agree, traitor is too strong. She did keep her true motive hidden (and it seems that it was hidden even from herself), but she never turned against Zatanna. It seems she may have eventually, though, if forced (by fate?) to fulfill her destiny as the new queen.

[Indigo Al]

I'm still wondering about Zatanna's "Neves sreidlos ekirts" spell. She broke the fourth wall in #4 of her mini. How did she become aware of the Seven Soldiers? Was she operating at the level of the seven old bald men? Is she the Libris Zatarae or the Libris Morrisonae? (I can't believe I just typed that...).

Man, I hope they not-fight together again. I hope Frankenstein continues as an ongoing horror comic, and Ystine rebuilds a Welsh Pagan Ultracamelot where even microbes swear their allegiance to the Knights of the Roundtable. I hope Bulleteer and Guardian find good jobs in Cinderella City, and I'm still confused about the New Gods, but oh well. Absolutely loved this whole thing.....

[the film freak]

Noh-varr did a pretty good job.

It's not, like, one of those stories where stuff happens in order for a reason. Spoilers are kind of useless here.

If you haven't bought the book yet I highly suggest rereading the previous issues. Lot of stuff come back to play that you wouldn't think would.

I would love for Grant to continue this stuff elsewhere. Be neat if he did a sequel with 7 new characters.

[the film freak]

Yeah- the panel gave me the impression of a young boy on a power trip, which doesn't necessarily imply supervillainy.

Klarion was never really a supervillan to begin with. He just enjoyed causing mischeif even though at the expense of others.

By the way they really need to collect the Kirby Demon stuff.

[the film freak]

Okay, so now I want an Aurakles miniseries.

Who doesn't want to read about a Cosmic Caveman God Barbarian?

[Joe Rice]

Who doesn't want to read about a Cosmic Caveman God Barbarian?

I'll tell you who: The Irish. Because they cannot read.

[Sean Walsh]

I'll tell you who: The Irish. Because they cannot read.

THAT'S A BLOODY LIE!!!!!

We can read when we're drunk! :p

[Tobias March]

THAT'S A BLOODY LIE!!!!!

We can read when we're drunk! :p

Yeah! That last post from me - I was ripped to the nines at the time. So there.


Um, probably shouldn't have admitted that. :confused:

[ultramandingo]

I'll tell you who: The Irish. Because they cannot read.
ohh ,, thats why i cant read or spell or type or find the damn bottle opener

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Well, that was, by far, the most ambitious undertaking I've ever seen a comics creator try in quite a while. Not sure if Morrison's grand experiment was a complete success, but it was certainly a fun ride.

The art was absolutely gorgeous. JH Williams should be able to do anything he wants to do after this. Surely, DC can find something more worthwhile for him to do than drawing Batman.

[dupersuper]

On the Klarion vs. Spyder debate as to which was 1 of the soldiers; if none of the soldiers were supposed to meet during the Sheeda battle, and Klarion met up with Frankenstein...

[Aaron King]

But Guardian met Bulleteer.

[noh-varr]

On the Klarion vs. Spyder debate as to which was 1 of the soldiers; if none of the soldiers were supposed to meet during the Sheeda battle, and Klarion met up with Frankenstein...

Klarion was a soldier. He even proclaimed himself as one at the end of the series. But before the Sheeda were defeated two of the soldiers were to meet (said so in one of the pieces about the series "Who will die, who will betray, who will do the dishes, which two soldiers will meet?" I personally still want to know who will do the dishes!

Spyder was the 8th soldier just like the Zor? guy who got sent to the past in the Time Tailor's suit was the 8th Seven Mystery Man. And if that doesn't work for you, Klarion had already turned by then which could have made him no longer a soldier and then since there are ALWAYS seven soldiers, Spyder became a soldier right then and there. Which makes sense since that's when he returns from background status to protaganist, which he hasn't been one of since Seven Soldiers #0. SO he returned to his former status.

I really loved the series and though some people may have overlooked this grand series THIS was the crossover event that everyone should have been reading. I really hope Morrison returns to play with at least one of his toys again. I worry that they will be ignored by everyone else, or worse ripped apart like they usually are by others.

[Reptisaurus!]

Furthermore, SPOILERS I don't really view Misty as a traitor either, unless there's something I missed. She seemed sincere that she wanted to become the Sheedha Queen to stop the Harrowing.END SPOILER

Me neither. She was just followin' her nature. But Klarion having the die is a better outcome than Misty having the die.

I figured that Mister Miracle was the non-soldier. He got kilt before Spyder joined up.

[mdg1]

I believe the idea was that all seven weren't supposed to meet.

[noh-varr]

I believe the idea was that all seven weren't supposed to meet.

I can't find a copy of any of my Seven Soldiers but the final one. But go read the back part with Grant's head and the list of the comics. (thinking a bit more it could have been teh original one at the back of issue 0) but anyways it stated that two of the soldiers WILL meet. Now that is of course in the fighting the Sheeda (or sounds better that way at least) which is why Frankenstein and Klarion can meet before Gloriana is defeated, and then Guardian and Bulleteer can meet after the fight is over. With the Sheeda beaten, there is no longer a need for the seven to hide.

Besides how else could Klarion betray the seven without actually meeting them? And technically when the Sheeda are beaten the Seven Soldiers no longer have a war so they return to being seven people. Or you can go with when Zatanna releases the Merlin and tells the universe to awake and the soldiers to strike on top of telling the DCU to wake up and become a living organism (that Morrison magic) also threw the spear of the soldiers. Since she just went on how you don't have to be trapped in your destiny, maybe she released the soldiers from their job? Course it doesn't make sense with the Bulleteer as it was the cop after the accident who told her she was now free.

[Steve Brady]

Klarion was really never one of the 7 Soldiers - he betrays everyone and I,Spyder becomes the 7th Soldier in the end (good twist) betraying Gloriana.


Well, Klarion was still a soldier. He just takes the place of the original Spyder, who betrayed Vigilante's Seven Soldiers - who were then saved by the "eighth" soldier Wing - whose part as "eighth" soldier who died to save the team is now played by Spyder's son. Beautifully cyclical.


What exactly was his essential function in defeating the Sheeda? I guess his was the more generic, protect-the-people side of the battle.

He led the street-level resistance, along with Ed and Lena and the Golem. While he held back the Sheeda ranks, Ystina went after their leader, and Frankie hit the infrastructure.


Perhaps this treasure [hammer] was destroyed because of it's misuse.


I'd guess this as well, but I'm going to keep an eye out for it as I reread the series this week.

[Steve Brady]

I'm still wondering about Zatanna's "Neves sreidlos ekirts" spell. She broke the fourth wall in #4 of her mini. How did she become aware of the Seven Soldiers? Was she operating at the level of the seven old bald men? Is she the Libris Zatarae or the Libris Morrisonae? (I can't believe I just typed that...).

Don't just take that "Neves sreidlos ekirts" out of context, though.

First she says "Ready?" and someone answers "Ready." not spelled[i] backwards but [i]written backwards. Was that Misty, or is it the reader? "Could this be YOU?" Certainly if you touched her hand in Zatanna #4.

"ekawa esrevinu" - Universe awake! All the minis have placed these soldiers in the position to fulfill their roles in the team, and at Zatanna's call they strike. And then she follows the final rule of magic.

[Tobias March]

Well, Klarion was still a soldier. He just takes the place of the original Spyder, who betrayed Vigilante's Seven Soldiers - who were then saved by the "eighth" soldier Wing - whose part as "eighth" soldier who died to save the team is now played by Spyder's son. Beautifully cyclical.
.

Yes I've read over your previous posts on this thread regarding Wing and the original Soldiers. Morrison's series certainly managed to homage and further the ideas of that story.

Plus Justina's horse quoted a Rolf Harris song, so that's one for the books :)

I'd count the completed series as a true success - I'd love for an Absolute collected edition, with each story played out in correct time. I understand these events were always occuring simultaneously, but I'd still prefer to read each Soldier's story from beginning to end.

[Reptisaurus!]

I believe the idea was that all seven weren't supposed to meet.

Bulleteer met Guardian as well.


Well, Klarion was still a soldier. He just takes the place of the original Spyder, who betrayed Vigilante's Seven Soldiers - who were then saved by the "eighth" soldier Wing - whose part as "eighth" soldier who died to save the team is now played by Spyder's son. Beautifully cyclical.


Wow. Good catch.

[Steve Brady]

I always took the "never meet" to simply mean they never meet up and form an official group - like the team in #0, for instance. It's part of their effectiveness against the Sheeda - how can find and fight a team that doesn't even know it's a team?

That doesn't mean they can never be on-panel together, or aware of each other's existence (as people, as opposed to teammates).

[Reptisaurus!]

Re-read Seven Soldiers # 0.

I don't think anyone's mentioned this:


The original six, including the Whip, were purely sacraficial lambs. They were all supposed to die so that Spyder could infiltrate the Sheeda Queen's Inner Circle.

Vigilante was almost certainly in on it. I figure he's one of the seven.

[Tobias March]

Didn't the characters in Bulleteer mention how the team was obviously doomed, as there were only six of them?

Reading this guy's blog today:

http://notthebeastmaster.typepad.com/weblog/seven_soldiers/index.html

He continually bangs on about the Seven Soldiers being a project by Morrison to reclaim the superhero from the fallout of 'grim n gritty', realized in the narrative by several references to Moore's Swamp Thing and the Anatomy Lesson.

Essentially Zatanna's spell in part works to defeat the Sheeda - comic book deconstructionists born in the wake of Watchmen ("what would superheroes really be like?") and perhaps hinting at the identity of the eigth 'evil', time tailor (time tailing - retcon?) who gets grundied (Moore?).

I found this paragraph of particular interest.

I’ve always thought Morrison had the most interesting anxiety of influence vis-a-vis Moore of anyone in comics (certainly moreso than that faithful but pale imitator, Neil Gaiman); Zatanna offers plenty more fodder for it.

[Aaron King]

I totally already "banged on" about the Sheeda being deconstructionist/remakers. It's the only thing I can make of the Seven Unknown Men. I can't make sense of them in the context of the story, but as metatextual reference, it's the only thing that makes sense to me.

[Steve Brady]

Re-read Seven Soldiers # 0.

I don't think anyone's mentioned this:


The original six, including the Whip, were purely sacraficial lambs. They were all supposed to die so that Spyder could infiltrate the Sheeda Queen's Inner Circle.

Vigilante was almost certainly in on it. I figure he's one of the seven.

Maybe, but how do you square that with the dialogue at the end that their plan failed and it was time to move to Plan B?

...

If Zor represents any writer it's John Byrne. :P

I'm up to MG #4 on my reread - the TTT/Zor talks about how there'll be no room in the new world for "kids like you" - comics that are silly and fun. Connect that with the Unknown Man in SS #1 - "we tried it your way."

[drwho]

Okay, I had read some of the previous minis that lead up to us and parts of others. To me this first issue was a big mess. It was sloppy confusing. This issue is definitely not reader friendly. Hell, I thought shinning knight was a guy and in this he is a girl. This book didnt flow right at all. The art was even confusing to me in many places. I really cant see why they took so long to release this. Not good at all. Okay I've said my piece will be waiting for reviews to determine if i get the second issue. I may have to reread it to figure out what was going on in this book.

[noh-varr]

Um Seven Soldiers #1 was the LAST issue of the story. And there's also a thread all about the series already go check it out.

[drwho]

Um Seven Soldiers #1 was the LAST issue of the story. And there's also a thread all about the series already go check it out.

So if this is the first issue of the new series you think they would make it somewhat reader friendly. Even a few flashbacks would have helped with this. This book just had a bunch of stuff going on in it.

[Ryan Day]

It's part 30 of a 30-part story. You need to have read most, if not all, of the minis to understand what's going in #1.

[Steve Brady]

So if this is the first issue of the new series you think they would make it somewhat reader friendly. Even a few flashbacks would have helped with this. This book just had a bunch of stuff going on in it.

I wonder how many other people picked this up thinking it was the first issue of a series... it's been seven months since another book with the Seven Soldiers banner was on the shelf.

[Ryan Day]

How I wish it was the first issue of a new series. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

[drwho]

Was this thing a one shot? I could have sworn this was the first issue of the ongoing. I mean it took that much time just to put out a one shot. arghghhghg

[Tobias March]

Was this thing a one shot? I could have sworn this was the first issue of the ongoing. I mean it took that much time just to put out a one shot. arghghhghg

You make Grant cry ;)

[Steve Brady]

I'll be first in line for a GM series with Zatanna or Frankenstein.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Um Seven Soldiers #1 was the LAST issue of the story. And there's also a thread all about the series already go check it out.

And that's not confusing at all for new readers, lableling your last issue as your first issue.

[Reptisaurus!]

It's part 30 of a 30-part story. You need to have read most, if not all, of the minis to understand what's going in #1.

And even then it's kinda iffy.

[drwho]

Did anyone else get sucked into thinking this was an actual first issue of thier new series like me? I recall reading interviews which gave me the impression there was an ongoing coming out.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Did anyone else get sucked into thinking this was an actual first issue of thier new series like me? I recall reading interviews which gave me the impression there was an ongoing coming out.

Morrison orginally said that each of the mini-series could be read individually so readers could pick and choose which ones they wanted to read but they'd get a larger story by reading all of them.

Now, I read all of them, but I still felt like I needed some footnotes or annotations to understand a lot of what was going on. This is easily one of Morrison's most dense works to date. It's overwhelming how much material he stuck into this thing.

However, there's almost too much different stuff in there for its own good. The New Gods stuff, in particular, felt like it needed more breathing room. The last page largely fell flat for me because Mister Miracle was the one character that felt rushed and under-cooked for me.

[Wesley Dodds]

I read Seven Soldiers as Grant’s response to Crisis on Infinite Earths.

Crisis was supposed to be about streamlining DC’s continuity and modernising the DC universe. But no multiverse means no Crime Syndicate. And a lot of the weirder stories of the silver age were just erased from continuity.

But Grant’s a fan of abundance. This is the guy who gave us Danny the World. Why not have endless novelty? The superhero genre’s capable of it. Why restrict the genre with an ill-fitting focus on serious and grim stories? Superheroes have so much untapped potential.

One of the things Grant has always loved to do in his DC work, whether it was Animal Man or JLA, was to bring back characters who’d been left in limbo by Crisis. Yes, Aquaman did fight Qwisp. Only, now he’s grim, like Aquaman.

Basically, the post-Crisis way of writing comics was an arbitrary limitation: an ill-fitting suit of clothes. We’re allowed to tell fun stories, you know. Let’s err on the side of creativity.

I think the Sheeda were supposed to be that tendency in comics to ransack the past for ideas rather than coming up with new ones. For example, the Marvel Ultimates line. Yes, those old Spider-Man comics had some good ideas. So, how about coming up with more new ideas instead of reheating past glories?

It’s the difference between Untold Tales of Spider-Man and Spider-Man: Chapter One. Busieck’s focus was telling new stories. Byrne’s focus was telling the old stories, just with worse art. Oh, and Electro should have a different costume.

So, basically, the good time tailors are the comic creators who create; the bad time tailors are the comic creators who recycle other people’s work and make it grim to disguise the paucity of their work.

[Shellhead]

It's cool that Morrison had this grand metaphor worked out regarding creativity and comics. I just wish that Seven Soldiers #1 could have held up better on a surface level, as the dramatic conclusion to the story developed in the preceding 29 comics. Each of the minis managed to deliver solid stories, except possibly that trippy Mr. Miracle one.

[Ryan Day]

Aurakles should have been much more important in the Mr. Miracle series. He's possibly the key to defeating the Sheeda, and yet he appears on what, two pages in the final issue, and without any background info.

The mini kind of covers the idea of how Mr. Miracle is going to save Aurakles, but doesn't touch on why. I think the first three issues should have been compressed into two, then the final issue, with MM's multiple deaths and views of different realities, should have been spread over two. And if you cover the history of Aurakles there, that frees up space in SS #1 for Shiloh do do more than show up and get shot.

On the other hand, we wouldn't get those great Williams-Kirby pages, but that's perhaps a necessary sacrifice.

[sgt pepper]

I think the Sheeda were supposed to be that tendency in comics to ransack the past for ideas rather than coming up with new ones. For example, the Marvel Ultimates line. Yes, those old Spider-Man comics had some good ideas. So, how about coming up with more new ideas instead of reheating past glories?



So Morrison is Klarion, mischievously picking up the dice and running?

Considering Morrison's work on All Star Superman, would he really agree with the critique in your last sentence there?

[Indigo Al]

So Morrison is Klarion, mischievously picking up the dice and running?

Considering Morrison's work on All Star Superman, would he really agree with the critique in your last sentence there?

I think you're onto something regarding Klarion. GM seems to have an affection for punky anti-authoritarian brats who stir crap up just for the hell of it, and his Klarion is right there alongside Dane McGowan, noh-varr, Sebastian O and others...

I honestly doubt Morrison wrote this whole saga just to metatextually rag on Alan Moore and grim-n-gritty comics.

[Wesley Dodds]

No, he wrote Zatanna to rag on Alan Moore. So, not the whole saga, anyway.

Actually, if anything, The Anatomy Lesson is the template for this saga: slipping new clothes on old characters.

[Smokeyjay]

Oh wow, I'm confused. I didn't read all of the Seven Soldier minis. I didn't read Mister Miracle one or the Guardian or Bulleteer or the Frankstein one.

So why did Dark Side (thought it was spelled Dark seid) want Mister Miracle instead of Aurakles? Was it just some bet that Dark Side got suckered into?

And what was the point of the Guardian guy? All he did was run around on his horse.

Why can Klarion control the monster guy?

I thought the Camelot backstory was interesting and hope someone creates a mini about that. Also I feel that Justina, Klarion, and the Sheeda daughter have a lot of potential to come up with some good stories.

[CYOTI]

So why did Dark Side (thought it was spelled Dark seid) want Mister Miracle instead of Aurakles? Was it just some bet that Dark Side got suckered into? Mr. Miracle represents escape and freedom just as Darkseid represent oppression and domination not to mention that he is probably capable of surviving Darkseid's Omega Sanction.


Why can Klarion control the monster guy?
Because Frankenstein is pretty much a GrundyMen that the Witchmen use as their slaves in their mills.


I thought the Camelot backstory was interesting and hope someone creates a mini about that. I agree the proto-Camelot was one of Morrison's best ideas.

[Wesley Dodds]

OK, I think Morrison pulled it off.

I loved that last bit with Justina at what looks like a Catholic girls' school. Every superhero needs a secret identity!

And, of course, Klarion's a teenage boy, so he would like having all these sexy Sheeda ladies at his service.

In a weird way, I see Klarion as Melmoth's male heir.

And I loved Bulleteer's accidential defeat of the Sheeda Queen.

"We played it by your rules" could be an Alan Moore reference. That is, Grant's saying he played it by the The Anatomy Lesson rule of reinventing characters.

This issue reinforces my belief that the Mister Miracle series needed a re-write. This issue's info-dump should have been in Mister Miracle 4.

[drwho]

I must have missed something but in the mini wasnt shinning knight a man? If so what caused the sex exchange?

[Shellhead]

I must have missed something but in the mini wasnt shinning knight a man? If so what caused the sex exchange?

You didn't read the whole Shining Knight mini, or you would have remembered the big reveal. It's not every day that you see a villain rip off the front of a heroine's costume.

[ultramandingo]

"We played it by your rules" could be an Alan Moore reference. That is, Grant's saying he played it by the The Anatomy Lesson rule of reinventing characters..
yea thats kind of a punk rock thing to do . take that old man ! tho, without moore , no vertigo , no the filth , no big wacky "event" comics for morrison

[Wesley Dodds]

And Morrison loves to bring back old characters so I don't know what he's complaining about. How is Moore's approach to Swamp Thing different from what Morrison did to, oh, The Shaggy Man or Qwisp?

And the lesson of the saga is that if you do this to characters who aren't that great you get new, interesting characters.

So, I'm not happy with this reading. If anything, the good Time Tailors are the ones who make use of the past. The bad Time Tailors are people who exploit the past.

Uh, comic book publishers? They don't want characters to change, they just want Spider-Man to fight Doc Ock?

[ultramandingo]

Uh, comic book publishers? They don't want characters to change, they just want Spider-Man to fight Doc Ock?
uh, what about the readers ? check out the whining on the planetary thread . they want punching

[Wesley Dodds]

That's just it. They don't want great stories, they want unchanging properties.

Sitcoms. But superheroes should be more than that.

[ultramandingo]

That's just it. They don't want great stories, they want unchanging properties.

Sitcoms. But superheroes should be more than that.

probaly why moore ( and gamian ) are moving on .wile morrison is doing jimlee 90s crap - and ellis , marvel 90s crap

[Wesley Dodds]

D'oh! The spear isn't just paternity; it's superheroes. Aurakles was the first.

[ultramandingo]

D'oh! The spear isn't just paternity; it's superheroes. Aurakles was the first.

Dr. Wertham was right!!!

[Doodle Bob]

OK, so I'm trying to iron out what exact roles each of the 7 had in defeating the Sheeda...

As far as I can tell so far, they are:

Shining Knight: stabs Sheeda queen and throws her into the streets

Bulleteer: randomly drives car into the Sheeda queen

Klarion: appropriates the fatherbox unwittedly and then becomes the substitute Sheeda King.

Mister Miracle: takes Darkseid out of the picture by offering himself as a substitute for Aurakles (this is a bit shaky, since it's not altogether clear how actually Darkseid was helping the Sheeda in the first place)

Manhattan Guardian: slightly unclear, unless it had something to do with killing the Horigal in the Klarion miniseries

Zatanna: very unclear

Frankenstein: kills off Melmoth, helps Klarion take over the Sheeda


If anyone cares to correct any of the above, please do so. Incidentally, has it been established yet which (if any) of the above will become ongoing series?

[Bat-Mite]

Zatanna casts the Seven Soldiers spell and awakes the universe. What exactly this does is up for debate, but I think it is a part of Morrison's Sentient DCU idea that will self heal the wounds of decades of crappy writing. How this ties with the defeat of the Sheeda is beyond me.

She also protects and teaches Misty, who in turn goes to New York and meets Klarion, who in turn does his part.

Guardian rides around his horse and makes out with his wife. Nice job if you can get it, but I don't see how that helped. I think he might have had a part in Bulleteers little traffic accident, though. I need to reread the whole thing.

[Tobias March]

Well Guardian kept the Editor safe who had previously been a member of the Kirbyesque child gang. Grant used them to represent the fun aspects of comics that have been lost. So Guardian is preserving that, plus he's a hero of the people 'combat reporter', he was there on the ground fighting Sheeda.

Meh. Works for me. Plus in freeing Aurakles, whom had been exchanged for the American territories between Darkseid & Gloriana, the first superhero is once again roaming the earth.

[Reptisaurus!]

Mister Miracle: takes Darkseid out of the picture by offering himself as a substitute for Aurakles (this is a bit shaky, since it's not altogether clear how actually Darkseid was helping the Sheeda in the first place)


This part I don't understand at all. I see themactic ties and New Gods ties between MM and the main plot, but I don't see any actual points of plot convergence.

[Bat-Mite]

The "plot convergence" part was that Darkseid was helping the Sheeda because they had given him Aurakles. What nobody knows is what the hell Darkside was doing to help the Sheeda that was so important that Shilo had to give his life to make him stop doing it.

I would really, really love to read the original 100 page script of this comic book. Waaaay too many stuff got left out.

[carabas]

Darkseid wasn't doing anything that needed stopping (or at least nothing Seven soldiers-related). It's just that Aurakles really needed to be freed.

Most of this has been mentioned above already.
We are told that Gloriana is prophesied to be killed by the Spear that Was Never thrown. Aurakles' Spear, in fact.
Aurakles Phallic Spear creating a long line of superheroes (we're even told in Bulleteer #4 that Alix is a direct decendant of Earth's first superhero). Except of course that Aurakles went time travelling and got himself captured by the Sheeda, who gave him to Darkseid, before he got around to do any serious spear chucking.
So if Mister Miracle doesn't sacrifice himself to set Aurakles free, superheroes don't happen and the Sheedah win by default. There's lots about this in Mister Miracle #4 as well.

[Bat-Mite]

Darkseid wasn't doing anything that needed stopping

Darkseid said he was helping the Sheeda take North America because they had given him Aurakles. I agree with you that it looked like Darkseid was just scratching his butt and not doing anything, but he said he was helping.

I am not sure Aurakles went time traveling in castle revolting, I even think we see him outside the castle in that picture with the rest of the Kirby-cavemen.

[carabas]

I am not sure Aurakles went time traveling in castle revolting,

I am 100% sure Aurakles did not go time traveling in Castle Revolting.

Aurakles time travelling predates Castle Revolting.
To quote: "Neanderthal superscientists launch a feasome time engine into the abyssal reaches of a distant future..."

Where they find the scavenger-King Melmoth of the sheeda, who promptly captures him and reverse-engineers his tech, creating Castle Revolting.

Aurakles travels to the future, accidently gives the Sheeda tile travel tech, gets captured, gets released by Mister Miracle, travels back to his own time, and creates a long lineage of superheroes.

[Doodle Bob]

Aurakles travels to the future, accidently gives the Sheeda tile travel tech, gets captured, gets released by Mister Miracle, travels back to his own time, and creates a long lineage of superheroes.

I think that this could be the explanation of Mister Miracle's role. I'm in the process of the re-reading the whole thing and haven't gotten to the Mister Miracle miniseries. I'm reading these in the order of publication rather than miniseries-by-miniseries, and I must say that this brings out the synchronicities of the entire series much more.

Question #2: who is the Time Tailor talking to in the last (i.e. #1) Seven Soldiers issue? Is it someone who pops up in any of the miniseries, or is it someone who dies (i.e. is lynched) before the miniseries?

[Bat-Mite]

He is talking to Zachary Zor, the guy who Zatanna defeats in her fourth issue. Zor was a Spectre villain way back in the golden age.

The theory is that the Time Tailor disguised Zor as the guy who gets lynched, thrown into Slaughter Swamp and becomes Solomon Grundy.

[Steve Brady]

I am 100% sure Aurakles did not go time traveling in Castle Revolting.

Aurakles time travelling predates Castle Revolting.
To quote: "Neanderthal superscientists launch a feasome time engine into the abyssal reaches of a distant future..."

Where they find the scavenger-King Melmoth of the sheeda, who promptly captures him and reverse-engineers his tech, creating Castle Revolting.

Aurakles travels to the future, accidently gives the Sheeda tile travel tech, gets captured, gets released by Mister Miracle, travels back to his own time, and creates a long lineage of superheroes.

Except that the capture Aurakles we see is old and messed up after being tortured by the Sheeda. I think any oat-sowing he did was before his capture.


He is talking to Zachary Zor, the guy who Zatanna defeats in her fourth issue. Zor was a Spectre villain way back in the golden age.

Which, by the way, is Zatanna's more substantive contribution to the victory. Her defeat of Zor prevents him from helping the Sheeda invasion.

The theory is that the Time Tailor disguised Zor as the guy who gets lynched, thrown into Slaughter Swamp and becomes Solomon Grundy.

I'm actually ambivalent on this. The Nonterrible Time Tailor says he drowned the real Cyrus in Slaughter Swamp, before the mob gets there. Then he sews up Zor in Cyrus's coat, which causes the mob to lynch him.

But did the real Cyrus become Soloman Grundy, or the Zor Cyrus?

I don't think it's clear, but I prefer the reading where the real Cyrus becomes Grundy, and Zor just dies. Like Glory in Buffy. Kill a god by stuffing him in a human and killing it.

[carabas]

Except that the capture Aurakles we see is old and messed up after being tortured by the Sheeda. I think any oat-sowing he did was before his capture.

His spear was specifically aimed at Gloriana. He didn't know about Gloriana before his capture. Therefore logic suggests he threw it after his release.
Besides, Kirby Neanderthal Super Scientists do not suffer the same frailties as do mortal men.

[Wesley Dodds]

Manhattan Guardian: slightly unclear, unless it had something to do with killing the Horigal in the Klarion miniseries

I'll try.

Well, Guardian saved Klarion's life. If he hadn't:

1. Misty isn't stopped.

2. Melmoth doesn't raid Limbo Town.

3. Billy isn't sent to Mars just yet (maybe). Doesn't Billy save Frankenstein?

So, if Guardian hadn't become a hero Frankenstein would have become Melmoth's slave and Klarion wouldn't have been there to stop Misty.

Also:

4. Helligan isn't able to make Iron Hand talk -- no Klarion, Melmoth never learns of Limbo Town, no museum break-in, Helligan can't get the item, Bulleteer doesn't learn

Speculation: Alix tells the police everything. The info goes to SHADE (their area). SHADE tells Frankenstein the Sheeda are from the future and about Nebula Man.

[Wesley Dodds]

More speculation:

Well, Darkseid took Aurakles because he knew it would enable him to get Mister Miracle. He says so. And if he hadn't made the deal Aurakles would still have been chained in Croatoan. Klarion doesn't get the die.

More speculation:

The trainwreck that makes Bulleteer into a superhero was caused when the radiation-poisoned pirate from Guardian died at the helm of his train.

So, based on my speculation:

Aurakles isn't chained-up so No-Beard crashes his train so Alix learns about the Sheeda so Frankstein gets told by SHADE about Miracle Mesa so the Sheeda lose their armada.

So, basically, Mister Miracle's role was "die to save the world".

1. Shining Knight indirectly creates Frankenstein

* Baby Brain creates Guardian

2. Guardian indirectly saves Klarion

3. Klarion indirectly saves Frankenstein

4. Mister Miracle indirectly creates Bulleteer

* Ali sends Shining Knight to meet Helen

5. Bulleteer tells SHADE about Miracle Mesa

6. Frankenstein destroys the Sheeda armada

* Ali gets Zatana involved

7. Zatana's spell makes it all possible (i.e. Ali the deux ex machina)

And, of course, Justina was motivated by "love & vengeance".

[Wesley Dodds]

So, without Ali/Newsboy Army:

Klarion is killed by Horigal.

On Mars Frankenstein becomes Melmoth's slave.

Shining Knight doesn't warn Helen of the threat.

Alix never finds out about the Sheeda.

Zatana doesn't recover her powers.

Not a good outcome: Zor free; Melmoth with an army, limitless resources and Frankenstein his slave; the Sheeda queen's vitality renewed and her armada intact. Melmoth and Gloriana go to war with the 21st Century as their battleground.

[Steve Brady]

His spear was specifically aimed at Gloriana. He didn't know about Gloriana before his capture. Therefore logic suggests he threw it after his release.
Besides, Kirby Neanderthal Super Scientists do not suffer the same frailties as do mortal men.

But when Aurakles calls out to Mister Miracle during his New Gods initiation in the black hole, he's asking if the spear found its mark.

I just don't see Aurakles at that point going back and impregnating someone. I think he just becomes crazy all-knowing Oracle that the JLA meet when they're rescuing the original Seven Soldiers.

[Steve Brady]

The trainwreck that makes Bulleteer into a superhero was caused when the radiation-poisoned pirate from Guardian died at the helm of his train.

I'm loving the connections your making, but there's no way, I think, that Bulleteer #1 can come after Guardian #2.

The events in Bulleteer #1 occur before even SS #0.

[carabas]

I think not.

Aurakles aka the Oracle (not the formerly pointy-eared one) sees through time, can predict the future, and from his point of view there is no real linear time.
MM:"They told me you can see through time and space, right"?
Aur: "...all at once...all happening at once."

And later,
"Wilt thou give thy life that Aurakles might save us all? Wilt thou give thy life for me?"

[gentlesatirist]

...who couldn't figure out why this book was delayed as long as it was?

It was an overly convoluted ending to a series that held much promise. I followed 5 of the 7 (except for Mr. Miracle and Zatanna - and after picking up the final issue of her series, I wish I'd have followed Zatanna as well) and can't believe that something that Morrison evidently put so much planning in to wrapped up in such a jumbled mess.

By the time this issue came out, Bulleteer had appeared on a cover of 52 and Klarion had popped up in cover art for DC's future releases. Some of the characters also appeared in splash art in Infinite Crisis #7. The whole "which one will die" thing was fairly blunted.

Maybe Morrison's efforts on 52 caused 7 Soldiers to end the way it did. Maybe he split himself too many ways. I guess that's a worthy sacrifice, since I think 52 has been pretty fantastic so far - and it doesn't detract from the quality of the earlier batch of series - but it's still a bit of a letdown.


- FE
Wickliffe OH

[demart78]

I just bought the whole series on ebay and i do not know the right read order can someone please help me out

[Wesley Dodds]

Seven Soldiers 0

1st tier: Shining Knight 1, Guardian 1, Zatana 1, Klarion 1, Shining Knight 2, etc...

2nd tier: Mister Miracle 1, Bulleteer 1, Frankenstein 1, Mister Miracle 2, etc...

Seven Soldiers 1

Or my suggestion:

Mister Miracle 1-4
Seven Soldiers 0
Shining Knight 1-4
Guardian 1-4
Zatana 1-4
Bulleteer 1-4
Klarion 1-4
Frankenstein 1-4
Seven Soldiers 1

[Paul Newell]

DC has them in this order:

Seven Soldiers 0
Shining Knight 1
Guardian 1
Zatanna 1
Klarion the Witch-Boy 1
Shining Knight 2
Guardian 2
Zatanna 2
Klarion the Witch-Boy 2
Shining Knight 3
Guardian 3
Zatanna 3
Klarion the Witch-Boy 3
Shining Knight 4
Guardian 4
Mister Miracle 1
Zatanna 4
Klarion the Witch-Boy 4
Bulleteer 1
Frankenstein! 1
Mister Miracle 2
Bulleteer 2
Frankenstein! 2
Mister Miracle 3
Bulleteer 3
Frankenstein! 3
Mister Miracle 4
Bulleteer 4
Frankenstein! 4
Seven Soldiers 1

[Paul Newell]

Just for the hell of it...And because having an incomplete poll annoyed me...I changed it to a fresh new question. So tell me:

Who ended up being your favourite character?

[LtMarvel]

Ahhh..It says I've already voted in the poll...you may have to delete and readd the poll...

[Paul Newell]

Ahhh..It says I've already voted in the poll...you may have to delete and readd the poll...
Damn! I can't delete the poll, which is why I decided to change it. Well that's a pain....Maybe it's one of those "clear your cookies" deal...

EDIT: If that doesn't work and you can't vote, feel free to PM me your choice and I'll edit it in.

[Steve Brady]

...who couldn't figure out why this book was delayed as long as it was?

It was an overly convoluted ending to a series that held much promise. I followed 5 of the 7 (except for Mr. Miracle and Zatanna - and after picking up the final issue of her series, I wish I'd have followed Zatanna as well) and can't believe that something that Morrison evidently put so much planning in to wrapped up in such a jumbled mess.

Zatanna #4 is one of my favorite comics of all time. You should read her series.

[Steve Brady]

I still don't think I can pick a favorite, but Frankenstein comes the closest with his "You're a monster because of all the bad stuff in your past? Well I'm the original monster, pal, and it doesn't get worse than my past, but I got over it and you'd better too or I'm chopping your damn head off" attitude.

[Steve Brady]

I just bought the whole series on ebay and i do not know the right read order can someone please help me out

For easy reference, just look in the back of SS#0 (and every issue). It shows the release list.

[noh-varr]

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/7Soldiers/7Soldierswrap_Morrison.html

Morrison on Seven Soldiers, very good interview.

I can't vote on the poll either it says already voted, bah.

[carabas]

...who couldn't figure out why this book was delayed as long as it was?

Because the script kept getting longer and longer, and eventually had to be massively editd back to a realistic page count.
And because Williams is One Slow Artist.

I followed 5 of the 7
Well, if you're not going to read two of the more important ones, of course it's going to seem a bit convoluted.

[Bat-Mite]

Well, if you're not going to read two of the more important ones, of course it's going to seem a bit convoluted.

Well, to play devil's advocate, the entire project was presented as a modular story and you could enjoy each module without worrying about the others. As much as I love the whole thing, I have to say it didn't triumph in that aspect.

But yeah, it makes more sense if you read the whole thing carefully, even though there are still some parts we are not sure where they fit.

[carabas]

Yes, the modular aspect pretty much failed at least in part.

Still, even if it had succeeded, the individual series would have made sense as stand-alone minis, but you would still have had trouble with the big picture if you hadn't read all of them.

[Paul McEnery]

GM says: When Zatanna casts the cards in the final issue, she's making a connection with the reader, inviting us to join her in making sense of 'the passage of a few people through a very short space of time' as Guy Debord so poignantly described his life and that of his friends, and by extension the lives of us all.

Well spank my bum and call me Shirley. I shoulda spotted that one, especially after the idea of the Invisibles being a game you can follow from any participants POV, which makes it a different story every time.

But in this case, we've got something else: an overview where we can see how all the interlocking parts work. L'il Hollywood has to take Mind-Grabber Kid under her wing so he can save the universe; which he does by sucking so hard that Bulleteer has to bend over to pick him up. Hah!

What's interesting within the plot is how much who knows and when. Seems like the remnants of the Newsboy(!) Army are clued: Baby Brain, Hollywood, Scarface, Ali-Ka-Zoom, and especially the damn Dog -- they all play the parts they're supposed to in order to take down the bad aspect of the Time Tailor (and the plot he sets in motion), and that's interesting in itself; by forcing them to grow up into their "suits", they acquire the skeevy power to enable the fresh young faces.

AKZ is nuts enough to be in the right place for Ystin -- and like MGM, is weak and needs saving, which gets Ystin out of her funk; in turn, this gets AKZ ready to get back in the game.

KS is corrupt enough to want the Cauldron and the Horse (no doubt he walks out of Slaughter Swamp with the Cauldron). Which puts the horse in place for Zatanna, and keeps the Cauldron in play for Ystin.

BB is weak enough he needs The Guardian to be his agent. Nuff said.

Hollywood is vain enough she works the circuit (and MGM, who is likewise), so Bulleteer doesn't die.

(Hmm. I sense a Deadly Sins pattern developing.)

I'm not sure where Millions fits into the plot exactly, except to Fortinbras the end of the show. Perhaps he's financing various aspects of the plot -- "Ed Stargard" in particular.

As for Chop Suzy, her failings of the flesh provide the twins who keep BB up and running until Guardian shows up.

Cap 7? Hmm. You got me. Maybe if he'd still been on the board, the others wouldn't have fallen so low, and the sin he represents is the sin that's visited upon him -- which of course allows Zatanna to trap the Merlin (note, once she's got the Merlin, the box can be burned on the beach -- freeing Cap 7?; who knows?).

Okay, so the NA are the 7 vices, and as it turns out, the vices are quintessential to the plot. (Extra bonus vice plot: Sally Sonic is the creation of Gloriana, it seems to me; spooky old lady in the forest, and a present that takes more than it gives; and comes back to bite Gloriana herself on the arse; it's no good Bulleteer on her own, she needs her mirror image vice to kill the bitchqueen.)

Now, as per Barbelith (http://barbelith.com/faq/index.php/Seven_Soldiers_Kaballah_mapping), the reason I couldn't get a chakra fix on each of the Soldiers (or a vice/virtue fix) is because they weren't specific chakras, but rather the path from one to the next in a great big circle. They each start in one chakra, face its downside, and then pass on to strength in the next one up. Apparently. Again, weakness is necessary for growth; the vice is the decay of one cycle and the beginning of the next.

Which again leads back to Gloriana, who seems like an end point in the ultimate decadence of humanity (aka deconstructed grim and gritty comics; aka The Dancers at the End of Time; aka colonialism). But she's not the end point of anything, but rather the moment of decay that leads to a state change -- the breaking of ego-boundaries provokes the fear of death, but it's only the death of a defence mechanism that's calcified into a neurosis; the bug has to chrysalize, the spider has to moult.

Oh, and one other note on that: as the Six Soldiers manifest Vainglory, the Queen is Vain Gloriana; and I, Spyder is as much her creation as he is the SUM's, and Vigilante's. Again, the "sin" is a necessary step, in this case ending that cycle of decay. Of course, the switcheroo necessary for changing the cycle is getting Misty out of there and Klarion in -- the King replaces the Queen.

Dimes to donuts the 7 weapons manage to apply either to the circular path between the chakras or to the strength of the chakras themselves.

So we've got the 7 paths, the 7 vices, the 7 virtues, the 7 tools. And overall, we've got the straight up the middle sword path of the Tree of Life that avoids the thorns of severity and the vagaries of mercy (or rather, as we see, is tempered by the fire of one and the water of the other). With the extra (missing) mode of Da'ath represented at one stage of the game by the 8th Tailor (Zor), at another by the 8th Soldier (I, Spyder), at another by the 8th Newsboy (El Mar? Or more accurately, I'd say, Mo Collier, whose weakness sets the plot in motion), and I daresay if we look for it long and hard enough, the 8th weapon.

Hmm. Thinking about Camelot, there are two 8ths: Arthur and Ystin. Arther goes bad, and Ystin goes good. And let's play Fisher King for a bit: A "wiser" Arthur goes looking for the Cauldron because Camelot's gone tits up because of the Spear (love and vengeance, which he wasn't wise enough to perceive when he picks up the Sword). And so Camelot is destroyed/brings non-generative decay upon itself and Bors has to destroy the village in order to save it. Why? Because Ystin chucks the Cauldron into Slaughter Swamp. Ystin, here, takes Perceval's role, but not to save the Fisher King, as it happens, but rather to create Frankenstein which happens to save the 21st Century instead (and dooms Gloriana into the bargain).

Boy, you can go round and round on this. As you might expect, since we're talking Spiral Dynamics here, and not the end point Big Bliss moment promised by the Kaballah -- one man's entering the White Light of Death is another woman's entering the White Light of Birth.

Which is why the failure of the modular approach to the mini-series is essential to the success of the whole!

[Steve Brady]

I also took Zatanna's spell to be "summoning" each mini in the minds of the reader, as it were, which allows for the final resolution.

Which is why you should ignore the DC solicit hype crap and read all the minis.

[Wesley Dodds]

Well, I checked the 1st issue of Bulleteer and there are some Subway Pirates carriages in the wreckage.

Which means Mister Miracle’s death meant Aurakles’ spear found its mark.

- Mister Miracle died so Aurakles would be removed from Croatoan
- Because Aurakles was removed from Croatoan No-Beard got radiation poisoning
- Because No-Beard got radiation poisoning Alix became a superhero
- Because Alix became a superhero she was driving the car that killed Gloriana

And if I’m right that Alix passed on her knowledge of the Sheeda to the authorities:

- Mister Miracle died so Frankenstein would be sent to Miracle Mesa and destroy the Sheeda armada

The 7 Unknown Men as editors makes sense. As tailors they’re supposed to tidy things; not change the fabric of reality. So, basically, what Morrison’s trying to say is: “Crisis on Infinite Earths nearly destroyed comics! WARN THE PEOPLE!”

And the shack in Slaughter Swamp was where Misty was imprisoned – notice the loom in Zatanna 4.

[Aaron King]

So, who are the Seven Uknown Men? Have we played this game? In the interview linked above, Grant mentions three of them. Including him, that brings us up to four:

1. Grant Morrison
2. Julius Schwartz
3. Cary Bates
4. Elliot Maggin

Mr. Morrison says, " So the Time Tailors /Seven Unknown Men, (whom I imagined to be all the DC writers who have appeared as themselves interacting with characters inside the DC Universe) present a sci-fi take on the job of maintaining a comic book universe, repairing its plot holes, refreshing its characters and set-ups and generally patching it up, like tailors adding to an old, tattered quilt."

[Bat-Mite]

Mister Miracle died so Aurakles would be removed from Croatoan


No, when Mr. Miracle dies, Croatoan had already been removed, probably by the Sheeda so they can give him to Darkseid. Darkseid kept him in his house in Haiti in Seven Soldiers #1.

[Bat-Mite]

whom I imagined to be all the DC writers who have appeared as themselves interacting with characters inside the DC Universe

Eww... Byrne likes to do that from time to time, so probably... him.

[Wesley Dodds]

No, when Mr. Miracle dies, Croatoan had already been removed, probably by the Sheeda so they can give him to Darkseid. Darkseid kept him in his house in Haiti in Seven Soldiers #1.

What I'm saying is that Aurakles was removed only because Darkseid knew that in the future Mister Miracle would die to release Aurakles.

[Paul Newell]

So, who are the Seven Uknown Men? Have we played this game? In the interview linked above, Grant mentions three of them. Including him, that brings us up to four:

1. Grant Morrison
2. Julius Schwartz
3. Cary Bates
4. Elliot Maggin

Mr. Morrison says, " So the Time Tailors /Seven Unknown Men, (whom I imagined to be all the DC writers who have appeared as themselves interacting with characters inside the DC Universe) present a sci-fi take on the job of maintaining a comic book universe, repairing its plot holes, refreshing its characters and set-ups and generally patching it up, like tailors adding to an old, tattered quilt."
Here's a few I found (Writers who actually interacted with DC heroes in Bold):

Murray Boltinoff and Bruno Premiani appeared in Doom Patrol #121.

Gardner Fox, Julius Schwartz and Sid Greene appeared in Strange Adventures #140

Murray Boltinoff also appeared with Bob Haney & Jim Aparo in Brave & the Bold #124.

Al Milgrom, Jack C.
Harris, Bob Rozakis, Michael Golden, Bob Smith, Milt Snapinn, and Anthony Tollin appear in a backup in Detective Comics #482

Marv Wolfman and George Perez appeared in New Teen Titans #20

Curt Swan appeared in Superman Annual #9

[Reptisaurus!]

Jim Aparo appeared in Brave and the Bold.

[Paul Newell]

Jim Aparo appeared in Brave and the Bold.
Heh, listed him just as you were posting...Even though he doesn't count as Morrison mentions that the seven are writers.

[Shellhead]

Who was that Writer character in Suicide Squad? Didn't they have to kill that character off because otherwise DC would have intellectual property rights over the name of that comic book writer?

[Ryan Day]

Who was that Writer character in Suicide Squad? Didn't they have to kill that character off because otherwise DC would have intellectual property rights over the name of that comic book writer?

I think that was just John Ostrander having a bit of fun with Morrison.

[Steve Brady]

Well, I checked the 1st issue of Bulleteer and there are some Subway Pirates carriages in the wreckage.

I'm not seeing that, they look like regular subway cars to me.

The main events are supposed to take place over one week. Shilo spends a week in the black hole. Guardian #2 takes place the same day as MM #1, but Bulleteer must have saved those people at least a few days before SS#0.

I guess we need Grant's alleged timeline B)


Oh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_comics_creators_appearing_in_comics

Alan Moore showed up in Hellblazer once, right? Maybe he's Zor :P

edit: http://www.qusoor.com/hellblazer/hb1204.htm

[Bat-Mite]

No, Alan Moore is All-Beard.

[Steve Brady]

No, Alan Moore is All-Beard.

So GM is No-Beard?

Moore can be Zor too. He arguably killed Zatara, after all.

[Wesley Dodds]

I'm not seeing that, they look like regular subway cars to me.

Well, it could just be unclear art, but one of the subway cars has a flat top and the other two have curved tops.

--

Moore can be Zor too. He arguably killed Zatara, after all.

No, no.

Zor is Jonni DC.

I'm semi-serious here. Johnni DC, continuity cop.

[Steve Brady]

Well, I'd stick with Zor = Byrnes, but Zor rhymes with Moore! :P

Seriously, though, there are some subtle jabs at Moore in the Zatanna series, but I think they're just that - jabs. Moore's not responsible for the Zorification of comics, in my mind, any more than Frank Miller is - it's the hacks who misinterpreted their intentions.

[ultramandingo]

So GM is No-Beard?

Moore can be Zor too. He arguably killed Zatara, after all.

remember back in morisons doom partol , "the beard hunter" - (i think?) he was a punisher type guy after the cheifs beard. grant must have a thing for facial hair

[Reptisaurus!]

Heh, listed him just as you were posting...Even though he doesn't count as Morrison mentions that the seven are writers.

Fine. Bob Haney was in the same story, too. :)

[Mighty Broke]

I'd imagine the Mr. Miracle we see in Infinite Crisis and 52 #1 is Shilo. The hands breaking through the ground in Seven Soldiers #1's a dead give-away, right?

I thought Klarion taking control of Frankenstein was brilliant.

OK. Bulleteer appears in 52 #24, Klarion's going to be in Robin soon. It's looking like the other New Gods are going to be in Firestorm and Blue Beetle. Any other Soldier sightings?

[Bat-Mite]

Any other Soldier sightings?

There is or was a teen Frankenstein in Teen Titans.

[Aaron King]

Klarion also appeared in a panel of 52.

[Mighty Broke]

52 #29 mentions the disappearance of Gimmix and the Pemberton estate's previous ownership of the Infinity Incorporated name.

[Mighty Broke]

I think this was one of the best comic series DC has put out. Very complex storytelling coupled with gorgeous art has made for a truely unique reading experience.

I've put together a site reviewing the entire series, including pictures and literary referances. You can view it here (http://mightybroke.com/7soldiers).

The site would not be possible if not for the insight and analysis of some of the most brilliant posters on this forum, including:

berk, Wesley Dodds, patience, Paul McEnery, Michael Painter, Lex, CaptMagellan, ultramandingo, Expletive Deleted, Gingold, Indigo Al, Groovie Mann

If I missed anyone, PM me or email me at josh@mightybroke.com. I'll give you credit on the contribution page and link to your website if applicable. Feel free to send critiques and site edit suggestions as well.

[StrikeForce Albert]

LOVED IT!

Though whatever drugs he didn't take for Authority #1 apparently he saved up for SSoV #1

still thought it was a wanderful issue and series

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I loved the ambition, energy and sheer imagination behind the entire project, but, in the end, I think Morrison was juggling too much for both himself to get across and for the readers to absorb and understand. However, I'd much rather see creators bite off more than they or the readers can chew than the run-of-the-mill stuff that usually fills the comics racks.

[The Shadow]

I loved the ambition, energy and sheer imagination behind the entire project, but, in the end, I think Morrison was juggling too much for both himself to get across and for the readers to absorb and understand. However, I'd much rather see creators bite off more than they or the readers can chew than the run-of-the-mill stuff that usually fills the comics racks.

I agree with both points.

I liked Bulleteer