SEVEN SOLDIERS: Speculation & Spoilers

[Chris Noeth]

Bulleteer is my favorite of all of the minis so far because of the direct ties to 7S #0. Couple that with the perspective Alix brings to the table. No interest in superheroics whatsoever. "Shot" into this gig by circumstances beyond her control.

Add Bulletdog to the roster of Morrison's Legion of Super-Pets. And Bulletgirl... what a bitch! "I fought in the war." Yeah, keep fixating on past glories and whore them out to the convention circuit.

The series is near the end. I hope to see ALL of these characters again in the future. I'm hoping Jake Jordan gets a membership with the League.

AMEN to that! ;)

[Bat-Mite]

I mean, there's a Sonic the Hedgehog character named that, and this is Morrison....

Who is or used to be pals with Mark Millar, who in turn used to be the writer of the Sonic the Hedgehog comic book. And they have both used a Sonic the Hedgehog stand-in in Flash. But personally, I think it is all a coincidence and Sally Sonic is called like that cause of the alliteration which is always a plus.

[Bat-Mite]

By the way, I don't know if this has been discussed before, but do you guys think Chop Suzi and Captain Seven's son/daughter is going to show up any time soon?

I like to think Guardian is the kid, and that's why Baby Brains and El Mar picked him up to be a superhero.

[multiplexo]

The guy in the red and white striped shirt at the table with Lil' Hollywood and friends was Stripsey, one of the Original SSOV...

And also Dumb Bunny (of the Inferior Five) was at a booth, signing.

This is kind of interesting because I remember somewhere else in this thread reading that SSOV takes place after IC and OYL. If this is the case then SSOV takes place on Earth-1 or something like it because Pat Dugan disappears to Earth-2 at the end of IC #4.

[jerrymcl89]

I noticed Booster Gold was presenting an award at the convention, which I guess bodes well for his surviving the crisis.

Incidentally, I much enjoyed "Aquaman won best comeback? All he did was shave!"

[Steve Brady]

I noticed Booster Gold was presenting an award at the convention, which I guess bodes well for his surviving the crisis.

Incidentally, I much enjoyed "Aquaman won best comeback? All he did was shave!"

Booster is in 52. Which is partly written by Morrison, so maybe we'll get a reference to this convention

[Razorgirl]

K hope i get the colour right for this! i used Lemon Chiffon which doesn't really show but you can kinda see it. is that what you all use?


Shining Knight will almost certainly be the soldier to face down Gloriana - "Gloriana, I am your death" [SK4] but I don't think she will die. Partly because there has been speculation about her joining a number of teams including I think Teen Titans which annoys me a bit, I don't see her in that context but never mind. SHE MUST LIVE!! additionally i think there will be a bit of a cop out whereby Shilo dies that he might rise again a la Jesus Christ. and this is where the soldier dying was pointing. although on the other hand chances are high that he will do this is issue 4 and if he does then it can't be the same idea again in 7S1. so if that happens, i'm inclined to think Frankenstein - he was only ever here on his mission, and that is is raison d'etre as it were. although...if he does find love...he would have more! I would like to think that it is Alix who finds love because hell, she could certainly do with some and it might serve to redeem her screwed up life. Argh too long to wait!!

also, i'm SO glad stellamaris shows up again! i've not read bulleteer 3 yet but i always found that panel in SK2 a bit frustrating because it's so blatant. i thought it was effective in context in that it's an advert for a movie called 'Cup of Blood' or similar and suggests that it's a commercial piece of entertainment based on what was essentially Justin's LIFE, the quest for the holy grail and all, and in the tagline it says something like 'a spy, a mermaid and a treasure thousands of years old' [i should really ref it, the book's really not far away, but you get the gist!] and that again reinforces how far justin has come, and shows the two cultures in stark juxtaposition.

all of that is pretty nice for a social commentary but i'd prefer it to have been a background feature, not the focus of the panel. but now i know it has another level to it i'm happier about it and look forward to reading bulleteer on tuesday when i can actually get out to buy it!

[berk]

I see that Diamond Shipping isn't listing Frankenstein #3 for next week, Feb 15th; anyone know if it's been postponed?

[Michael Painter]

Yeah, Frankenstein was delayed last week. It's new due date is March 1st. Which is a bummer.

[Shellhead]

Yeah, Frankenstein was delayed last week. It's new due date is March 1st. Which is a bummer.

Will any other Seven Soldier titles be delayed to avoid coming out before Frankenstein? Specifically, is Seven Soldiers #1 still coming out on schedule?

[Steve Brady]

Zatanna #4 was late and didn't throw anything off.

If Frank #4 is late, then there might be a problem.

[Michael Painter]

I think Freddie Williams is done with Mr. Miracle, and Yannick Paquette really is on his own schedule that hasn't interfered with timelines. I think that Frankenstein #4 and Seven Soldiers #1 might be delayed because it seems Mahnke is behind in the series.

[Wesley Dodds]

Even worse, replacing Mahnke with someone else.

[berk]

Even worse, replacing Mahnke with someone else.Are they actually doing that, or did you just mean that it would be even worse if they did?

[Michael Painter]

I doubt that would happen. My guess is that Frankie 4 will be delayed but will still come out before Issue one of Seven Soldiers.
And I think maybe the editors just couldn't agree if Ferry could maintain the schedule needed for the event, which is ironic.

[Razorgirl]

?? someone edited my post so the spoilers show! /confusion

to reference a comment someone made a couple of pages ago, where does morrison suggest that shilo's only way out is suicide?

also, just read bulleteer and got such a rush when vigilante unexpectedly showed up! but what is with yannick and redheads?? bit overkill for me...

[Shellhead]

to reference a comment someone made a couple of pages ago, where does morrison suggest that shilo's only way out is suicide?


I suppose that Shilo could just ask a store clerk to move the Depends to a lower shelf.

[Paul Newell]

?? someone edited my post so the spoilers show! /confusion

to reference a comment someone made a couple of pages ago, where does morrison suggest that shilo's only way out is suicide?

also, just read bulleteer and got such a rush when vigilante unexpectedly showed up! but what is with yannick and redheads?? bit overkill for me...
That's bizarre...For some reason the tags are playing up...Anyway, for future reference Razirgirl if you want to post spoilers just use the spoiler tags:

without the gap. Chosing a colour doesn't work due to the colour change when someone quotes you.

[berk]

to reference a comment someone made a couple of pages ago, where does morrison suggest that shilo's only way out is suicide?It was at the end of Mister Miracle #3 where Orion (presumably) tells Shilo that, "The Life-Trap has you in its grip," and Lightray (presumably) says "And there's only way one way out ...", and also the preview blurb for MMM #4 says: Join Shilo Norman as he faces the ultimate challenge: The LIFE TRAP is here, and the only way out of this one is in a box! Can Mister Miracle beat the odds that say death is 100% certain? Find out in 'Forever-Flavoured Man' and prepare to witness ... the Final Escape! which seems pretty clear, although I'm wondering if the "box" referred to might not be a boxxx, i.e. Mother-Box, rather than a coffin; or perhaps there's a double meaning here - Shilo does have to die, but Mother-Box still plays some important role in the process.

Does anyone have any idea what the phrase 'Forever-Flavoured Man' is all about? It sounds like it might be some kind of pop-culture reference, but if so, it's nothing I ever heard of.

[ultramandingo]

http://isotopecomics.com/communique/morrisonflyer.jpg

He's Grant Morrison, the mad comic genius from Glasgow whose
distinctive work has redefined comic authorship for the underground and
the mainstream. From the mind-bending counter-culture thrill-ride of
THE INVISIBLES, to the truly heartbreaking "western manga" tale of
cyber-enhanced pets on the run WE3, to a fun and big ideas infused run
on NEW X-MEN, to the utterly controversial THE NEW ADVENTURES OF HITLER
starring you-know-who himself, to the re-invention of one of America's
most enduring icons with ALL-STAR SUPERMAN... Morrison has made a comic
that almost every reader has fallen in love with.

And he's coming to the Isotope for a truly rare in-store appearance on
Friday, February 10th for a party we have affectionately dubbed "GRANT
MORRISON'S INTERNATIONAL GUIDE TO LIVING FABULOUSLY." Can you feel the
love, baby?

Friday Feb 10th
8pm until past your bedtime
21 and over, por favor

[Paul Newell]

OK, is something bizarre happening to this thread?

[Paul McEnery]

Undersea diva.

I can't believe I just got that.

[Steve Brady]

And seagarettes! I nearly died when I read that.

[Steve Brady]

DC's March Page currently has the following:

http://dccomics.com/comics/?dat=20060301&s=31

March 1st: Frankenstein #3
March 8th: Mister Miracle #4
March 15: Bulleteer #4
March 29: Frankenstein #4

and SS #1 on April 5.

FWIW

[berk]

By the way, none of us got around to remarking Bulleteer #3's allusive title yet, but here are the lyrics to King Crimson's "Twenty-First Century Schizoid man" in case anyone wants to play with them:

21st Century Schizoid Man

(Fripp-McDonald-Lake-Giles-Sinfield)

Cat's foot iron claw
Neuro-surgeons scream for more
At paranoia's poison door
Twenty first century schizoid man.

Blood rack barbed wire
Politicians' funeral pyre
Innocents raped with napalm fire
Twenty first century schizoid man.

Death seed blind man's greed
Poets' starving children bleed
Nothing he's got he really needs
Twenty first century schizoid man. Personally I suspect that Morrison probably just liked the sound of the title, but you might be able to draw some connections to lines like "Nothing he's got he really needs."

I believe Pete Sinfield did the lyrics for the whole album, as he did for Emerson, Lake & Palmer on occasion, IIRC. If anyone hasn't heard it for whatever reason, check it out - an early-70's classic [edit: actually 1969, I see now], not a weak track on the entire record (personal favourite: "Epitaph").

[berk]

DC's March Page currently has the following:

http://dccomics.com/comics/?dat=20060301&s=31

March 1st: Frankenstein #3
March 8th: Mister Miracle #4
March 15: Bulleteer #4
March 29: Frankenstein #4

and SS #1 on April 5.

FWIWIt might almost be worth going nearly the whole of February without a Seven Soldiers issue in order to have a March-April with one every single week for 5 weeks straight. Looking forward to this, great way to lead up to the series climax on April 5th.

[Calamas]

without the gap. Chosing a colour doesn't work due to the colour change when someone quotes you.
I’ve found it a tremendous help to bookmark the following:

CBR Codes (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/misc.php?do=bbcode)


.

[CaptMagellan]

I forgot to cut and paste it but in one of the Wondercon coverage articles there is an answer from Morrison regarding when 7 Soldiers takes place. He said that as far as he was concerned it takes place during the week before the Crisis starts.

[ultramandingo]

dont know if anybodys mentioned this before, but at wondercon morrison said his original idea for 7 soldiers was JL8 - dc's version of the avengers ...

guardian - cap'n a
miracle man - thor ( cus their both "gods")
the demon - a christian hulk
and so on
(the spider aka - hawkeye?)
........but then he gave upon it/ got a better idea

[4DGlasses]

Did anyone else catch that bit about Frankenstein #4 having a tie to JLA:Classified???

[Steve Brady]

Did anyone else catch that bit about Frankenstein #4 having a tie to JLA:Classified???

Yep, I guess we'll see how successful the Ultramarines were in being heroes in Qwewq.

[cactusmaac]

I got Seven Soldiers Vol 1 in the post yesterday.

I like Morrison's concepts and the art is beautiful (especially Bianchi's) but I'm not feeling enough connection or interest in the characters to buy the remaining trades.

[4DGlasses]

Grant Morrison recently revealed at WonderCon that he has interest in doing an ongoing for one of these three characters.

Which do you prefer?

[Expletive Deleted]

Guardian didn't do a lot for me, and I don't think Frankenstein could sustain his own series (as much as I like his mini).

I'd go with Bulleteer.

[Shellhead]

Guardian was better than I expected, but the character himself is only moderately interesting. Bulleteer has a smoking body and an interesting look, but I don't see a superhero, just some random person who happened to get powers. So I voted Frankenstein. He is visually interesting, has huge name recognition value, and a uniquely cool way of speaking. Only problem is that I can't see anybody but Grant writing that dialogue properly.

[jerrymcl89]

I'd read any of those (or Zatanna, who I'd actually prefer). Frankenstein is the most intriguing as a character, but I also liked the sorts of stories Morrison came up with for the Guardian, so I could see how that could work. I can't quite picture how the Bulleteer would work as an ongoing series.

[noodleboy]

I went with Bulleteer out of the three just because I think there would be more content to explore there. Personally I would like to see a Shining Knight or Klarion series.

[Indigo Al]

Frankie's the most viable of these properties, especially if he links up with "Girl Frankenstein" from #1. You could do things on the scale of Wein or Moore's Swamp Thing.

[Wesley Dodds]

Oh, Hell, hard choice. I went with Frankenstein because it's the best. But I badly want to see more of Alix.

I know Guardian's a black sheep, but Morrison's done a lot for that character. I'd like to see him become a supporting character in another superhero title -- like Gangbuster or the previous Guardian in Superman.

[Doug Strange]

FRANKENSTEIN!!!!!!

[Indigo Al]

A Guardian book is also quite viable - you can do a lot with the concept of the super-journalist, plus I want to see more of Morrison's DCU New York City.

I like Bulleteer, but I feel like in the hands of a lesser writer it could just turn into an Alias riff - the hard-luck reluctant superheroine

[titanfan]

Does that mean that none of those 3 characters are the one to die?

[Steve Brady]

Frankenstein is the baddest badass in Badassville.

But can't we have all three?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I got Seven Soldiers Vol 1 in the post yesterday.

I like Morrison's concepts and the art is beautiful (especially Bianchi's) but I'm not feeling enough connection or interest in the characters to buy the remaining trades.

I think the way they're collecting the Seven Soldiers minis is a big mistake. Each mini should be collected on their own, giving the readers the option of picking up any mini they like, instead of being forced to read every one.

[Wesley Dodds]

Yeah, but that means 7 or 8 trades (one trade for JLA Classified and the two bookends?), while this means just 4. 8 trades is a lot to buy for people who want to read an entire series. I guess DC just bit the bullet and decided they'd do better by appealing to people who want to read the entire epic rather than people who want to read one series. And, frankly, none of the series stand alone anyway. They all end on a cliffhanger. So, at the very least you have to read Seven Soldiers Special 1 to get the entire story for a character.

[DouglasDanger]

So, I am finally catching up on 7S. I bought Manhattan Guardian 1, Shining Knight 1 and 7S 0 at the time of release, but circumstances prevented me from collecting past that until now. Thanks to mycomicshop.com, I will soon have the rest of the series, save those issues which have not come out yet and Zatanna 1, which was sold out, in my hands for the low low price of $60, with free UPS shipping.

I am really pumped! I probably wont get them until nearly March, but it will be well worth the wait! (I guess I have really been waiting almost a year to read most of them anyways!)

[CaptainAwesome]

Bulleteer. Grant Morrison(superheroes + boobs) = 1 happy customer.

[bfrank]

Bulleteer has a smoking body
I laughed..........

[Shellhead]

I can't quite picture how the Bulleteer would work as an ongoing series.

I have trouble visualizing Bulleteer as an ongoing series that wouldn't strongly resemble Alias (the Marvel series, not the preposterous spy show).

[shyguy]

Bulleteer is doing nothin' for me, and I can't really decide between Manhattan Guardian and Frankenstein, both of which are fantastic.

[Ultraman Max]

I think Manhattan Guardian could hold a series pretty easily with the tabloid paper concept, heck there was already a short lived tv show with a similar theme. Each storyline would begin with him investigating some urban, suburban, rural or other type of legend and go off into some pretty wild territory from there.

I can already see the "Millatant Mutant Aligators live under Chicago" cover in my head.

[berk]

Interesting that Morrison mentioned those three in particular - three of the four characters he created himself for the series, the odd one out being the Shining Knight.

[Calamas]

Of the three Morrison mentioned, Bulleteer is my favorite and Manhattan Guardian comes next. It was Frankenstein that left me cold.

I also really liked Klarion. This was different, even by Morrison standards.

[4DGlasses]

the odd one out being the Shining Knight.

Can help but think Ystin's going to die. :(

Shining Knight would have been great! Simone Bianchi is a spectacular artist.

Anyone notice the amount of cover work Bianchi's done lately? That cover to GL with the Cyborg Superman is dope!

[Shellhead]

I think Manhattan Guardian could hold a series pretty easily with the tabloid paper concept, heck there was already a short lived tv show with a similar theme. Each storyline would begin with him investigating some urban, suburban, rural or other type of legend and go off into some pretty wild territory from there.

I can already see the "Millatant Mutant Aligators live under Chicago" cover in my head.

The tabloid/urban legend angle has probably been nearly exhausted by shows like the X-Files and Supernatural.

[DouglasDanger]

So, those have featured a vigilante newspaper? From the brilliant and mad mind of Grant Morrison?

X-files has been over for a long time now, and it wasnt tied to a newspaper at all, as far as I can remember. And I never even heard of this Supernatural of which you spoke.

[Bruce Wayne Jr.]

Just wanna say I've been enjoying this thread since the beginning.

Thanks to everyone for all the thought-provoking insight.

[Shellhead]

So, those have featured a vigilante newspaper? From the brilliant and mad mind of Grant Morrison?

X-files has been over for a long time now, and it wasnt tied to a newspaper at all, as far as I can remember. And I never even heard of this Supernatural of which you spoke.

The viglilante newspaper concept is good, but if all the stories they cover seem like rehashed tv episodes, people will get bored quickly or else Grant will veer off into starkly weird (read, commercially unviable) material like the end of his Doom Patrol run.

Supernatural is a WB tv show featuring the pretty boy actor from the early seasons of The Gilmour Girls and the pretty boy actor from the second season of Dark Angel, battling a wide range of American urban legends and rural legends and other stuff, with at least one token hot chick per episode. For example, they spent one episode fighting the source of the Bloody Mary legend, which was something lame about mirrors and curses.

[Wesley Dodds]

Kolchak's a better example of the genre.

[Ultraman Max]

Kolchak's a good example, though I was actually thinking of Sci-Fi channel's The Chronicle, and was really just trying to illustrate that there's an angle that's been known to work (more or less). While I think comics would have an advantage over TV in terms of what they can show (no budget constraints thus no screen time limits) with that sort of angle, it would be pretty dull if they handled it the same way. Inter-mixing other angles would be a good idea.

There are other concepts or stories that I think could work with it. Like (for example) just what would rival papers stoop to in order to lure in readers? Sponser their own hero? Sponser a villian?

As far as the other two characters I'm not quite sure I'd personally be as interested in them long term, unless it were Morrison writing. Like Shellhead said, Bulleteer strikes me as going the Alias, Powers, or Pulse route and I'm not quite sure what he would do with Frankenstien that's all that different than Doc Frankenstien's approach. Though the 3rd and 4th issues of the latter would help give me an idea of where he'd take the character.

[Wesley Dodds]

Every issue, Frankenstein finds an evil. And then he kills it in some horrible way. I'd buy it!

If you want a longer character arc, fine: he's been alive long enough to have an amazing backstory. That's the sword of the angel Michael. How'd he get it? Did he make his steam-powered gun? Why the Hell's he wearing a Hussar's uniform -- was in the army? What war did he fight in? He likes to quote Milton: is he a Christian? He's a patchwork of the body parts of others: does he even have a soul? And he's resourceful enough to travel both through time (he's going to visit the future) and space (to Mars). He's the Terminator, he can go anywhere, he's ruthless. He wipes The Punisher right off the fucking map.

Far from monsters, I'd keep The Guardian close to New York issues. Sure, he gets assigned to the crisis of the month (terrorists take over Carnegie Hall and hold the Rockettes prisoner, a mad scientist has managed to activate the statue of liberty and is taking in on a rampage, whatever...), but he works at a newspaper, damn it, and there's no shortage of news in New York. The most obvious thing that comes to mind is a mayoral campaign where one of the candidates is a complete crook, and only The Guardian knows... That's the kind of arc that could keep going for years, with breaks for The Guardian to fight other menaces. And, yeah, it's a tabloid, so there are the normal wacky tabloid threats for him to fight: that DAMN SPACE ALIEN, for one...

[4DGlasses]

If Morrison can write as many books as he brags he can...

I'd like to see him write all three books. Next year maybe.

[RobCharlton]

He likes to quote Milton: is he a Christian?

One of the three books that Frankenstein's Monster taught himself to read/speak with was Paradise Lost..... That's the Mary Shelly version of course.

[Wesley Dodds]

*This* Frankenstein likes to quote Milton too, and he has the angel Michael's sword (and perhaps one of his arms). At least, I'm sure he believes in Heaven and Hell.

[Chris Thomas]

my two cents since we now have a flavor of all the seven soldiers. fantastic stuff. will be fun to re-read. I just got caught up on frankenstein.

my quicky rankings of the series (with the knowlege that 3 are not done yet and overall the set have been a 10/10)


1. mr. miracle--unbelievably good. I really really want shiloh to have his own series. profound stuff--both by the artist(s) and the writer.
2. frankenstein -- I would also read this series as an ongoing. sort of like a somewhat more sinsister hellboy. with some poetry thrown in.
3. bulleteer--much promise as an ongoing. art is great. character is interesting. needs a good villian--sounds like that is up next
4. shining knight--started fast, really slowed down the POW flew up up and away.
5. zantanna--(sp. I know)--I had high hopes -- was slightly dissapointed but still enjoyed it alot. only real problem was the appraently shifting focus.
6. m. guardian. some very interesting twists but I think my main knock against this is that the guardian genre didn't really mesh with the bizzare subterranean, mystical pscyho genre. I probably just missed the point here. but I still liked it.
7. klarion--overall interesting. made the most demand on the reader in my opinion. points out morrison's only flaw--he sometimes assumes his readers are a little smarter than they really are. count me in the 'slightly too dumb to interpret this' category.

[Ultraman Max]

Every issue, Frankenstein finds an evil. And then he kills it in some horrible way. I'd buy it!

If you want a longer character arc, fine: he's been alive long enough to have an amazing backstory. That's the sword of the angel Michael. How'd he get it? Did he make his steam-powered gun? Why the Hell's he wearing a Hussar's uniform -- was in the army? What war did he fight in? He likes to quote Milton: is he a Christian? He's a patchwork of the body parts of others: does he even have a soul? And he's resourceful enough to travel both through time (he's going to visit the future) and space (to Mars). He's the Terminator, he can go anywhere, he's ruthless. He wipes The Punisher right off the fucking map.


That does sound pretty awesome now that you spell it out, and I hadn't thought of the Christian angle, that could prove really interesting. So far his motivation in his series had been to seek out and kill Mr. Melmuth, so I wasn't quite sure where he'd be headed as of yet now that he's done that.


a mad scientist has managed to activate the statue of liberty and is taking in on a rampage, whatever...)


Now there's something I'd like to read right now . :D

[berk]

Originally Posted by Steve Brady
DC's March Page currently has the following:

http://dccomics.com/comics/?dat=20060301&s=31

March 1st: Frankenstein #3
March 8th: Mister Miracle #4
March 15: Bulleteer #4
March 29: Frankenstein #4

and SS #1 on April 5.Well, the DC site is still giving this same schedule, but I see that Diamond Shipping isn't yet listing Frankenstein #3 for March 1st.

[Maleficentogre]

diamond list aren't completely correct until the monday of

[kossori]

You guys did notice Guardian on the wraparound cover for the new Justice League series, right?

Along with Zatanna and Mister Miracle (most likely Scott Free and not Shilo, alas).

[Sean Walsh]

Well, the DC site is still giving this same schedule, but I see that Diamond Shipping isn't yet listing Frankenstein #3 for March 1st.

Diamond's list for March 1st won't be fully complete until the Monday before (Feb 27th) - which is usual.

[noh-varr]

Out of the three, I'd want to see Guardian first, he just seemed to have more depth plus he thought being a superhero was cool. Plus I want to see if he ever got his girlfriend back. Then Frankenstein since we could get big mythic fights against evil ever month. Bulleteer would be last for me just cause the other two are cooler to me I'd buy whatever he does though, I'm sad like that. :)

[Michael Painter]

Guardian to me has the most potential, I like the idea of a superhero working for a newspaper and being a witness to the story, and also the idea of the newsboy reporters.
Bulleteer reminds me so much of what an Anti-Alias book would be. It's a book to remind people of what a true superhero is.
Also, the third trade cover by Yannick Paquetter of SSOV is colored and fully pencilled at DC's comics page.

[4DGlasses]

No FRANKENSTEIN #3 on Ash Wednesday...

:mad:

[Steve Brady]

No FRANKENSTEIN #3 on Ash Wednesday...

:mad:

That's just plain wrong.

[Bat-Mite]

Now Baby Jesus will cry, and he doesn't like to cry.

[Michael Painter]

Well, I guess we could look it as Frankenstein and Mister Miracle on the same day. To me, it looks like one more day for me to pissed.

[Steve Brady]

Well, I'd rather wait patiently for them to be finished right. It's too good to compromise.

[Steve Brady]

IC #5 and possible SS #1 spoilers:

Shilo and Frankenstein appear to show up in IC #5, in the Chicago and New York panels, respectively, right after the Earths split further.

So if one soldier really dies, permanent-like, and if that giant JLA roster is for real, then I guess Klarion, Ystin, or Bulleteer are in trouble.

[Bat-Mite]

That doesn't mean Shiloh and Frankestein are going to live either, since Seven Soldiers takes place between issue six and seven of infinite Crisis. I think.

[ultramandingo]

i dont see Frankestein , but i do see a big green ape of a beast boy ( the 7th soldier?.......or not)

[FanboyStranger]

i dont see Frankestein , but i do see a big green ape of a beast boy ( the 7th soldier?.......or not)

It would certainly appear to be Frankenstein standing on the bus with the boy on his shoulders waiting for rescue from Firebird and the Marvels in New York. Beast Boy is in Bludhaven further down the page.

[Steve Brady]

It would certainly appear to be Frankenstein standing on the bus with the boy on his shoulders waiting for rescue from Firebird and the Marvels in New York. Beast Boy is in Bludhaven further down the page.

You can see Frank's different colored arms, including the one that used to belong to a slave.

Morrison said that SS takes place a week before IC, but does that mean the first issue? The big finish?

At the start of his mini, Shilo doesn't seem like he does a lot of superheroics.

[Bat-Mite]

I believe they said Seven Soldiers takes place a week before the last issue of IC.

[DCKar2nist]

I heard that to, does anyone have any info regarding the Seven Soldier's impact (if any) on the current crisis? I thought they'd be the characters showcased in 52's reintroduction to the DCU but that wasn't the case.

[Wesley Dodds]

So, the Seven Soldiers might be what Swamp Thing was to the original Crisis.

[Roads]

I like the Zantanna the best. Frankenstein look cool but he don't fit into my buget.

[DCKar2nist]

So, the Seven Soldiers might be what Swamp Thing was to the original Crisis.

What do you mean by that? What role did Swamp Thing play in COIE?

[Bat-Mite]

Hard to explain. Pick up a copy of the fourth Swamp Thing Trade 'A murder of crows' and you won't regret it.

[divinebrown]

It's basically something like this: While all the big dogs are dealing witht the Anti-Monitor during Crisis on Infinite Earths, there are other evil forces trying to turn the chaos to their advantage. Swamp Thing, John Constantine, and friends deal with this "behind-the scenes" threat.

The Sheeda may very well be the "behind-the-scenes" threat during Infinite Crisis and it falls upon lesser known characters to deal with them.

Which makes me wonder: Zatanna has kind of been a major character as of late. Has she been seen in any issues of Infinite Crisis?

[Wesley Dodds]

Yeah. There's cosmic instability, of course these nasty monsters from future earth will try to take advantage of it.

[Steve Brady]

Which makes me wonder: Zatanna has kind of been a major character as of late. Has she been seen in any issues of Infinite Crisis?

She was in the Vengeance special, using her powers without any difficulty.

In Zatanna's series, of course, the Phantom Stranger wasn't a mouse, so SS would have to take place before the Spectre went all rampagey.

[Maleficentogre]

Phantom stranger isn't a mouse after Vengence either. SS takes place after the minis.

[A.Warlock]

It's real inane to place SSoV into the Crisis. Seven Soldiers was conceived as its own separate story, nearly unrelated to DC happenings (until DC editorial brings it in afterwards). Enjoy the story. Don't try to place it. Just wait for the beautiful J.H. Williams III bookend.

[CaptMagellan]

Regarding when SS happens... Back on page 102 I posted

forgot to cut and paste it but in one of the Wondercon coverage articles there is an answer from Morrison regarding when 7 Soldiers takes place. He said that as far as he was concerned it takes place during the week before the Crisis starts.


If you do a search for Wondercon 2006 articles you'll come across the DC panel transcript that had Morrison's quote.

[4DGlasses]

If you do a search for Wondercon 2006 articles you'll come across the DC panel transcript that had Morrison's quote.

WonderCon Link (http://www.newsarama.com/WonderCon2006/DCU/architects.html)

[Wesley Dodds]

Two Seven Soldiers this week. Boo-ya.

[berk]

Two Seven Soldiers this week. Boo-ya.And from the hints we've been given in the previous issues and some of the press-releases, I'm expecting some pretty big developments in these two: Frankenstein#3 is supposed to finally reveal the true nature of the Sheeda and their origins, for example.

[CaptMagellan]

WonderCon Link (http://www.newsarama.com/WonderCon2006/DCU/architects.html)

Thanks for providing the link. :)

[Steve Brady]

I'm all about MM #4. Frank is just dessert (incredible badass dessert).

So, who thinks:

1) MM#4 will contain no Sheeda references
2) MM#4 will contain Sheeda references
3) MM#4 will contain no Sheeda references until the very last page.


I'm thinking number 3.

[Shellhead]

I'm all about MM #4. Frank is just dessert (incredible badass dessert).

So, who thinks:

1) MM#4 will contain no Sheeda references
2) MM#4 will contain Sheeda references
3) MM#4 will contain no Sheeda references until the very last page.


I'm thinking number 3.

I would guess 3, as well. And I hope Shilo is the Soldier who dies, because he wasn't heroic at all, just a self-absorbed entertainer who lacked common sense.

[Michael Painter]

Looks like that from a DC press release, that Seven Soldiers #1 has upped its page count. Its now adding 16 pages to the story, now making the last issue 48 pages long.
Maybe its a gift for us long-time readers who have stuck it through for this megaseries.

[Bat-Mite]

Or maybe it is because Morrison wrote 80 pages like he said in an interview and had no way to compress it into 32.

[X-Ray]

Looks like that from a DC press release, that Seven Soldiers #1 has upped its page count. Its now adding 16 pages to the story, now making the last issue 48 pages long.
Maybe its a gift for us long-time readers who have stuck it through for this megaseries.



Thast's 45 pages for ads and maybe includes a pull out poster of one of those ads if we're lucky.

Then 3 pages of flashback from the other SSV.

[Wesley Dodds]

I wondered how he was going to be able to resolve all this in a normal-sized issue.

[Be Stiff]

Anyone care to PM me Mister Miracle #4 spoilers?

[berk]

And from the hints we've been given in the previous issues and some of the press-releases, I'm expecting some pretty big developments in these two: Frankenstein#3 is supposed to finally reveal the true nature of the Sheeda and their origins, for example.I had that wrong: it's Frankenstein #4 that's supposed to deal with the Sheeda, according to the previews at the back of #3.

[Be Stiff]

Mister Miracle #4 was absolutely amazing. I wanted so badly for Shilo to come through OK (and for his ding-dong to grow back). I wasn't expecting another hyper-dense Morrison tour de force to come through and redeem the entire mini-series like #4 did. Shilo's safe and well, and between Darkseid's Omega Effect (which I guess Shilo has now?) and SBP everything sits just nicely in the grand scheme of things. Every time someone shows up in two places at once? Omega.

Everything's still valid! I get the feeling the Sheeda have enslaved the New Gods in flesh, and Seven Soldiers #1 will set up a coherent Fourth World status quo. Looks like they showed up now because the destruction of the crisis threatens to knock back civilisation. This could explain some of the natural disasters springing up around Crisis, I suppose (and how cool is that link?) The last page of SS#1 would be so awesome if it shows everyone diving off into the Crisis to be a hero.

One nag - Shilo should have had a star of david on his grave, not a cross. But what a perfect, uplifting issue.

[Wesley Dodds]

OK, here are my thoughts.

Mister Miracle turned out to be an organisational mess. I think the underlying ideas were good, but I also think that the script needed multiple rewrites. It shouldn't have been published in its current form.

As I understand it, Mister Miracle really was about "the war within a man's soul". Their titanic campaigns were within him. So, The New Gods aren't really trapped in human bodies, that was just how they appeared to Shiloh during his initiation. It was all a big allegory. Good won, Shiloh got over his brother's death, now he's ready to be a hero.

That explains why Highfather was alive in issue 2. I know he came back briefly but last I checked he was still dead. So, it wasn't really Highfather, it was just the incarnation of the New God within Shiloh's soul.

OK, fine. It was weird to have Oracle turn up like that in what was basically a dream sequence. And we still don't know what he is -- Morrison promised us his origin story.

The aurakles are beings who emerged from The Source at the dawn of creation. Will Shiloh give his life that the aurakles will save us all? Looks like Shiloh's going to be the one to die. His role in fighting the Sheeda is somehow enabling the aurakles to fight the Sheeda? Well, if the Source produced these energy beings, perhaps now that he's become part motherbox Shiloh will be able to turn his body into a gateway for them.

A huge opportunity to have that 4th wall fun Morrison loves was missed, too.

The 3rd issue of Frankenstein was good. This series reminds me of something I read in Malcolm Gladwell's blink. The problem with focus groups is that people will rate as bad something that's just different. Focus groups didn't like All in the Family, they wanted to change that Archie Bunker character into a nice guy.

Well, Frankenstein's like that -- it's not bad, it's just different. I find myself initially disliking issues and then warming to them. Lots of good ideas in this one: the 21st century is so monstrous that Frankenstein seems ordinary. He hasn't worked it out yet, but it would probably be possible for him to walk the streets of a place like Metropolis and not terrify people. It will be interesting to see how he adjusts to not being a monster anymore.

Ramsay Norton -- actually, I think it's Ramsey, and he's the creator of Chemo. So, that's why the monster looks so much like Chemo.

[Be Stiff]

I'm not so sure it needs a re-write:

- Some time before they last appear and before the Infinite Crisis, Darkseid wins. All motherboxes are destroyed except Shilo's (I'm infering)

- Darkseid blasts everyone with Omega, trapping them within the ultimate hell - being written by John Byrne! This explains why Fourth World Continuity is so flakey.

- Shilo, previously only a fill-in Mister Miracle, steps up to the plate - arranging to meet with Metron, who's a slippery bugger. Afterwards, he's blasted with Omega, creating many, many pseudo-lifes, all of which have some marginal degree of continuity. During this time Motherbox is stolen, but escapes into Shilo.

- Shildo lives many, many lives in hell, including his weird out of character turn in the slab. Because he's freedom's spirit he escapes and frees Omega (notice how Omega is about to whack Darkseid? I bet that comes up again). He needs to free the New Gods, but first he has to deal with the Sheeda, who have some kind of involvement with everthing. This was the big, weird 90s-Morrison story out of the seven.

[Wesley Dodds]

But he comes out of the black hole at the end. He was in it the whole time, and the bit with the psychiatrist at the end implies that this was all in Shiloh's head. Basically, none of the things that happened in this series happened in the real world. It's likely that Darkseid did win, but I'm not sure they're all incarnated on earth. I think that was just Shiloh's way of translating their celestial conflict into something he could understand.

The same way the Shining Knight thinks he's fighting faeries and Zatanna sees everything as a magical threat: we make sense of the world in terms of how we understand the world.

[ultramandingo]

sowhen do i get my Frankenstein and bride action figs? a witch boy would be cool too.......

[CaptMagellan]

But he comes out of the black hole at the end. He was in it the whole time, and the bit with the psychiatrist at the end implies that this was all in Shiloh's head. Basically, none of the things that happened in this series happened in the real world. It's likely that Darkseid did win, but I'm not sure they're all incarnated on earth. I think that was just Shiloh's way of translating their celestial conflict into something he could understand.

The same way the Shining Knight thinks he's fighting faeries and Zatanna sees everything as a magical threat: we make sense of the world in terms of how we understand the world.

Exactly. He was going through a week long shamanesque initiation in the black hole. Everything did happen, just on a spiritual level that, while absolutely real to Shiloh, did not happen in physical, continuity reality for the rest of us. Within that spiritual, 'non-ordinary reality' realm, things can happen, not just in Shiloh's 'head' but in his non-physical internal AND external experiences. Darkseid wasn't physically doing these things but the atavistic current that informs Darkseid was acting within Shiloh's existence and - for Shiloh at least - was absolutely real. Especially since any failure during the initiation would have, most likely, ended in Shiloh's death within the black hole (Can't get much more 'real world' real than that).

I personally loved this series but I can understand that it's not for everyone. I found his use of cross-cultural shamanic initiation patterns to be excellently done within the confines of a four issue 'superhero' comic dealing with the New Gods. He actually made them seem like Gods (in the sense of how magico-religious cultures have encountered the phenomena they called 'Gods' historically).

These four issues were a great 'origin' story and I think Mister Miracle is set up to be an ongoing series better than many of the others after all this (but only if Morrison keeps writing it).

As for Frankenstein... Dug it. Will probably have more to say about it after the fourth issue. But I loved the "Bride" with the extra arms. Hommana hommana hommana.

EDITED TO ADD: I loved the twist on the idea of Gods, who are locked away and needing to be freed. Most commonly seen in pop culture in Lovecraftian pastiches. Here, we see again, a 'cultist' contacted by imprisoned gods and given special knowledge to effect their release. Only this time it's the good gods, not evil slimy tentacles monsters.

Mother Box as the Necronomicon? Let's pass around the tequila and debate ;)

[Be Stiff]

The continuity did happen - Shilo's stint at the slab factored into Joker's Last Laugh, his motherbox is merged with him while desaad has the case, and the Omega Lives interact at least once.I'm infering Metron lured him into the life trap and Omega which was sprung inside the black hole. Net result: Darkseid's powers turn against him, and Shilo is now more or less a fully initiated New God, ready to save everyone from Darkseid and the Sheeda.

Think of it as weaponised hypertime.

[Wesley Dodds]

The continuity did happen - Shilo's stint at the slab factored into Joker's Last Laugh, his motherbox is merged with him while desaad has the case, and the Omega Lives interact at least once.I'm infering Metron lured him into the life trap and Omega which was sprung inside the black hole. Net result: Darkseid's powers turn against him, and Shilo is now more or less a fully initiated New God, ready to save everyone from Darkseid and the Sheeda.

I don't think it's clear from that panel that it is turning on Darkseid. It looks more as though Darkseid and Omega are turning on Dezard. And then it cuts to the good, Dezard replacement psychiatrist helping out Shiloh.

Well, maybe the Slab bit is a genuine flashback, like the ones to Shiloh's childhood. That explains why Oracle was in it -- he really did meet Oracle when he was at the Slab, and Oracle set him on the path to quitting his job and becoming a professional escape artist. What he was always meant to be.

The bit at the end is supposed to be a surprising twist. It wasn't real, he's been in there for a week. The researchers comment on it. It's not like he left it and then re-entered it, he never came out.

[Wesley Dodds]

OK, if the Oracle bit is a real flashback, that makes a lot more sense.

[Be Stiff]

I don't think it's clear from that panel that it is turning on Darkseid. It looks more as though Darkseid and Omega are turning on Dezard. And then it cuts to the good, Dezard replacement psychiatrist helping out Shiloh.

Well, maybe the Slab bit is a genuine flashback, like the ones to Shiloh's childhood. That explains why Oracle was in it -- he really did meet Oracle when he was at the Slab, and Oracle set him on the path to quitting his job and becoming a professional escape artist. What he was always meant to be.

The bit at the end is supposed to be a surprising twist. It wasn't real, he's been in there for a week. The researchers comment on it. It's not like he left it and then re-entered it, he never came out.

The slab Omega Life was probably put there because the idea of Shilo working at the slab is thought of as being highly fucking weird. It's a divergent continuity line which was produced by the Omega Effect - an explaination that would work well for a few characters, I think.

It's a Grant Morrison comic - he doesn't have to leave the black hole for those lives to be in continuity.

[Sean Walsh]

I don't think it's clear from that panel that it is turning on Darkseid. It looks more as though Darkseid and Omega are turning on Dezard. And then it cuts to the good, Dezard replacement psychiatrist helping out Shiloh.

It's possible that Darkseid's pissed because - as Metron says - now Shilo can control the Omega Effect as well. If there's one thing we all know about Darkseid (the traditional one and this one): he DOES NOT like to share. So while Darkseid can still control Omega, the bad news for him is that now *someone else can too*

Well, maybe the Slab bit is a genuine flashback, like the ones to Shiloh's childhood. That explains why Oracle was in it -- he really did meet Oracle when he was at the Slab, and Oracle set him on the path to quitting his job and becoming a professional escape artist. What he was always meant to be.

But making his time with the Slab part of another life does allow that whole business to go away, though. He inexplicably became the Slab's warden in JOKER: LAST LAUGH - even though he'd been on the escape artist scene for years before then. It was a nice idea for Shilo (gave him some reason, I guess), but unimportant in the whole scheme of things. Plus they'd done the "a Mister Miracle runs a prison" in KINGDOM COME; JOKER: LAST LAUGH just needed to be forgotten.

[Paul McEnery]

Okay smart boys:

So how do the Klarion and MG references fit in with the black hole reveal?

[CaptMagellan]

Okay smart boys:

So how do the Klarion and MG references fit in with the black hole reveal?

In the same way that a Tamang Bombo getting accurate information regarding real world threats to the village while his spirit fights with a Rakshasa while in the non physical realm of Rakshas Lok does.

Or how a Mayan priest could get real world info while communing with the demons of the dead while in the non physical underworld of Xibalba.

Shiloh at least had the added 'real' benefit of having his body there as well as his spirit.

I think the story that Morrison is telling is one that doesn't conform to western dualities of 'real' or 'not real.' It's not a case of it really happened vs. it happened in his head.

It happened, subjectively and objectively, just within a realm that does not correspond to what most would call physical reality - with the chosen, in-story, metaphoric/mythic device being the 'black hole.'

[Paul McEnery]

In the same way that a Tamang Bombo getting accurate information regarding real world threats to the village while his spirit fights with a Rakshasa while in the non physical realm of Rakshas Lok does.

Or how a Mayan priest could get real world info while communing with the demons of the dead while in the non physical underworld of Xibalba.

Shiloh at least had the added 'real' benefit of having his body there as well as his spirit.

I think the story that Morrison is telling is one that doesn't conform to western dualities of 'real' or 'not real.' It's not a case of it really happened vs. it happened in his head.

It happened, subjectively and objectively, just within a realm that does not correspond to what most would call physical reality - with the chosen, in-story, metaphoric/mythic device being the 'black hole.'

Okay, I like that. 'Cause I went back to see if he was there in those scenes, and of course he wasn't.

Which makes an interesting commentary on the intersection of characters throughout the series.

[Wesley Dodds]

And, of course, he was a celebrity stumbling through the streets like a crazyman and nobody was able to see him. As though he was invisible.

[berk]

Which makes an interesting commentary on the intersection of characters throughout the series.And, of course, he was a celebrity stumbling through the streets like a crazyman and nobody was able to see him. As though he was invisible.Yeah; maybe this is reading too much into it, but at that moment - the beginning of Shilo's defeat and descent into hell, as it were - his story intersects with Klarion's soon after Klarion first comes under the influence of Melmoth, which you could say was the beginning of his "dark time", and with Jake's at the moment he was having a bitter argument with his wife, which IIRC was the beginning of his descent into confusion and depression. So maybe we could say that Klarion's and Jake's eventual success in emerging from their dark times of the soul were reflections of Shilo's eventual triumph over the Life-Trap, and/or vica versa, i.e. Shilo's harrowing of hell is a cause/effect of Klarion's and Jake's experiences. Though one wonders why Morrison restricted the parallels to those two characters and left out the other four; simply a matter of dramatic logistics, perhaps? Not wanting to use up too much space by having 6 separate panels, one for each character? And/or not wanting to make it all too obvious?

a couple more interesting "intersectons" with the other books:

the chained god Aurakles: could these be the chains we saw hanging down in the underground chamber when All-Beard and No-Beard found the "six-sided god--machine"? and/or the chains we saw when Badde showed Klarion the place the god Croatoan was supposed to have abandoned/escaped?

Dark Side referred to Mother-Box as a "god-machine"; I recall Misty's die and the one Klarion found - presumably the same two that No-Beard and All-Beard were after - being described as god-machines, and also Melmoth saying that Croatoan was an artificial intelligence system in the form of two die.

So do we have some kind of identity or at least link among Aurakles, the two die, Mother-Boxxx, and the escaped god Croatoan?

[berk]

Noe for the negative stuff: As interesting as MM#4 was as a Seven Soldiers story - and I agree with most of what Wesley Dodds and CaptMagellan said about it - I didn't much like it as a New Gods story, in spite the positive aspects pointed out by Wesley, Capt, Be Stiff, and others. Maybe I'm just in a paranoid mood after hearing the latest hints about Neil Gaiman's forthcoming Eternals series (it's supposedly going to make the Eternals a significant part of the Marvel Universe; as if that's a good thing), but I think Morrison has screwed the concept once again in at least one very important sense: as a couple people have pointed out on the New Gods board at Alvaro's, MM#4 might be interpreted saying the different representations of the New Gods we see are all merely avatars or aspects of something that is ultimately unknowable; I think this is part of what CaptMagellan and Be Stiff were hinting at as well. That much in itself, I like: that's how I think the concept of gods really does work at whatever level you want to talk about. But in this case it has the unfortunate consequence of lending undeserved legitimacy to all the mis-characterisations we've seen from DC over the years - including, IMO, Morrison's version of Dark Side in this very issue and throughout the series. So what should have been a very positive development in DC's treatment of the concept will, I fear, be exploited to its detriment.

What do I dislike about Morrison's Dark Side? Pettily and pointlessly cruel. Kirby's Darkseid was never interested in inflicting pain as an end in itself; cruelty was just a tool to further his ultimate goal of absolute power. And he didn't take things personally enough to be interested in twisting the knife in a defeated enemy. Darkseid was all about the big picture. Dark Side, on the other hand, indulges in petty gestures, smirks at the defeat of his enemies, and tortures Shilo for no apparent reason other than to enjoy his misery. He's really more like DeSaad that Darkseid.

Then there's the "omega sanction": Personifying it was a dumb move, IMO. It seems to me this was done for no other reason than to separate it from Dark Side, the better to allow Shilo to turn it against him. In contrast, Darkseid's Omega Effect was mysterious and dramatically effective because it was unexplained, an integral part of that character, employed rarely and always effective on the rare occasions when it was used. Morrison's device of Shilo turn the presonaified Omega against Dark Side is just a more sophisticated variation on the Superman comics where the hero blocks Darkseid's eye-beams with his "hand of steel," turning them on Darkseid himself.

Auracles: another bad idea. The less information we are given about the Source, the better that concept works dramatically. Adding to the minimal info Kirby gave us in the original series always detracts from the power and mystery of the entire concept.

the idea of chained/imprisoned gods: it can be handled in an interesting way - Lovecraft is a good example, as CaptMagellan pointed out - but in superhero comics it almost always represents an adolescent, cultural power fantasy to the effect that we mortals have managed to tame reality (the chained god) via our science and technology (superheroes). Which is complete nonsense, of course, as Katrina and the Tsunami have recently pointed out to us, but that's what makes it a fantasy, in the worst sense of the word (refusal to face reality).

On the whole, I would have preferred that Morrison hadn't chosen Mister Miracle as one of his seven characters. Making the New Gods a mere sub-plot in a bigger story always betrays the concept, wheteher the bigger story in itself is a good, as I still think Seven Soldiers is, or a bad one, e.g. JLA, Cosmic Odyssey, etc. And I can't help recalling the quote from Morrison from a few weeks back when he said he'd jump a the chance at writing ongoing series for Bulleteer, Guardian, or Frankenstein, 3 of the 4 Seven Soldiers characters you might call original creations of his. My initial reaction was - why didn't he create 7 original characters in the first place? I think I would have enjoyed Seven Soldiers even more if it had been an all-original series with no connection to the DCU or to Fourth World.

[Wesley Dodds]

the chained god Aurakles: could these be the chains we saw hanging down in the underground chamber when All-Beard and No-Beard found the "six-sided god--machine"? and/or the chains we saw when Badde showed Klarion the place the god Croatoan was supposed to have abandoned/escaped?

Just a quick point -- that's Oracle, from the original Seven Soldiers/JLA crossover. He's your generic cosmic being. The aurakles are a race of energy beings that emerged from the source at the dawn of time. Halo from the Outsiders is an aurakles merged with an earth woman.

Perhaps he was the being that was chained there. Good idea.

[Wesley Dodds]

Noe for the negative stuff: As interesting as MM#4 was as a Seven Soldiers story - and I agree with most of what Wesley Dodds and CaptMagellan said about it - I didn't much like it as a New Gods story, in spite the positive aspects pointed out by Wesley, Capt, Be Stiff, and others.

Just to reiterate, I thought this series had some ideas and I can see what Morrison was going for, but I don't think he pulled it off. Frankly, this miniseries was a mess. The bit with the black hole at the very end just confuses things further.

As I understand this series: Shiloh was the hero who failed and was punished for it, but he rallied and triumphed. It's important to note that he failled because of his flaws and prevailed because of his strengths. That gives the arc of the story coherence.

But the twist at the end was that it was all just a Shamanesque initiation experience. He didn't really confront "Omega", he confronted the personification of restriction. He won the battle in his own head and prepared himself spiritually for his task. The New Gods aren't really homeless people, that's just how he translated their conflict into something he could understand.

Although I grant that it's likely that Darkseid has in fact "won".

[berk]

Just a quick point -- that's Oracle, from the original Seven Soldiers/JLA crossover. He's your generic cosmic being. The aurakles are a race of energy beings that emerged from the source at the dawn of time. Halo from the Outsiders is an aurakles merged with an earth woman.

Perhaps he was the being that was chained there. Good idea.Oh, I just assumed that "Aurakles" and "Oracle" were supposed to be variant spellings, based on the differnet characters' perceptions - although I did fiind myself hearing Auracles as rhyming with Heracles or Pericles.

[Wesley Dodds]

Good point.

[berk]

Just to reiterate, I thought this series had some ideas and I can see what Morrison was going for, but I don't think he pulled it off. Frankly, this miniseries was a mess. The bit with the black hole at the very end just confuses things further.

As I understand this series: Shiloh was the hero who failed and was punished for it, but he rallied and triumphed. It's important to note that he failled because of his flaws and prevailed because of his strengths. That gives the arc of the story coherence.

But the twist at the end was that it was all just a Shamanesque initiation experience. He didn't really confront "Omega", he confronted the personification of restriction. He won the battle in his own head and prepared himself spiritually for his task. The New Gods aren't really homeless people, that's just how he translated their conflict into something he could understand.

Although I grant that it's likely that Darkseid has in fact "won".Yeah, but if the idea is that every time we see - or have seen - the New Gods, we've really seen only some aspect of them, then the versions that appeared in Shilo's mind are as "valid" as any of the others, including accessory characters/concepts such as Omega. It all depends on how the idea is handled by future writers: it could either be a way to eipe the slate clean and get rid of all the crap that's been done with the concept since Kirby, or it could be made to legitimise that very same crap. But the fact that even Morrison himself didn't do all that well with some of the characters doesn't bode well for the future. Between this and Gaiman's Eternals I'm getting pretty depressed.

[CaptMagellan]

I think the people who will really like this mini are going to be a very small minority. The magical/initiatory aspects are too obscure for a common audience and existing New God fans will probably hate Morrison's interpretation.

I like it but I'm a geek for this sort of thing and I was never a New Gods fan (although I was a Scott Free fan during the Giffen DeMatteis league).

Berk: Thanks for pointing out those connections with Guardian and Klarion - cool correspondances. I think it's time to reread the whole massive thing again and see what I've missed.

[Gingold]

I liked Mr. Miracle, but I agree that it seemed somewhat incongruous with the other minis that all seemed much more integrated. I would love to see Grant expand on this interesting take on the New Gods, but I agree with above comments that it seems too big to be just a subplot of a larger storyline. A consistent artist all the way through would've been better too. It's a shame Pascual Ferry couldn't do the whole thing.

I'm a big fan of Kirby's New Gods, and while this is certainly a different take on them, it actually seems closer in spirit to the original than most of the less inspired revivals (Simonson's excellent Orion series excepted, of course).

It'll be interesting to see how Shiloh's story gets brought into the larger story in Seven Soldiers #1.

[SpartanX]

How is this going to be collected in TPB?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

How is this going to be collected in TPB?

In the order they were released.

[Michael Painter]

I personally liked Mister Miracle, but I don't think it was wise to include Mr. Miracle into a mega-series like this when most of the New God characters themselves and Shilo Norman were part of Jack Kirby's original experiment of a cohesive universe. The New Gods, just like the Eternals, are just too hard a concept to look at in only 4 issues. The characters, the New Gods at least, just really tough to go into. Morrison is on the right track, but I couldn't help but feel that he bit too much that he could chew on this decision.
Although I think the strongest point about this mini is that Shilo Norman's need to be a hero is explained further, and any doubt or trepidation is really gone because he's conquered the guilt of his brother's death.

[Chris Thomas]

from the pov of a new god newb: I loved mister miracle. so far, best or second best of the seven series. frank may be the best. the mm story was cohesive, interesting, appropriately obtuse at times, and left me with many questions (in a good way.) and the art was spectacular-that never hurts.

[davros42]

In the order they were released.

In the order they were released or the order they were meant to be released in?

There's quite a difference.

[Kent H]

Most likely the order they're listed in on the shipping checklist on the back page of each issue.

[berk]

By the way, regarding that final scene between dark Side and DeZard, there seems top be somehtiung else going on there: did anyone notice how, when Dark Side describes what he's done to Shilo - "I sent him to the ultimate hell. *Huff* Trapped in an endless succession of synthetic lives ... alone, without his guiding angle ...so hot ... flesh oxidizing in the combustion of time ..." - he's lying on deZard's couch, as if he's a patient, as Shilo had been, and wipes his brow with as if he's experiencing the very heat of hell he's in the act of describing? Almost as if Dark Side himself is somehow suffering the torments he's inflicting on his victim. One wonders if his words described not only Shilo's fate, but his own. And when Dark Side says "Omega is the Life Trap! The life trap." it almost came across as if he felt trapped himself in some sense: for example, if the New Gods we see in these and other stories are mere avatars or incarnations, might this be construed as being "trapped in an endless succession of synthetic lives"?

[4DGlasses]

By the way, regarding that final scene between dark Side and DeZard, there seems top be somehtiung else going on there: did anyone notice how, when Dark Side describes what he's done to Shilo - "I sent him to the ultimate hell. *Huff* Trapped in an endless succession of synthetic lives ... alone, without his guiding angle ...so hot ... flesh oxidizing in the combustion of time ..." - he's lying on deZard's couch, as if he's a patient, as Shilo had been, and wipes his brow with as if he's experiencing the very heat of hell he's in the act of describing? Almost as if Dark Side himself is somehow suffering the torments he's inflicting on his victim. One wonders if his words described not only Shilo's fate, but his own. And when Dark Side says "Omega is the Life Trap! The life trap." it almost came across as if he felt trapped himself in some sense: for example, if the New Gods we see in these and other stories are mere avatars or incarnations, might this be construed as being "trapped in an endless succession of synthetic lives"?

Dude, I just fried a few dozen neurons trying to connect those dots...

Good job!

[Paul McEnery]

Just to reiterate, I thought this series had some ideas and I can see what Morrison was going for, but I don't think he pulled it off. Frankly, this miniseries was a mess.

But the twist at the end was that it was all just a Shamanesque initiation experience. He didn't really confront "Omega", he confronted the personification of restriction. He won the battle in his own head and prepared himself spiritually for his task. The New Gods aren't really homeless people, that's just how he translated their conflict into something he could understand.

I just reread MM.

And it works a helluva lot better in one go than it did as four separate things, especially with art hell happening.

Then again, when you look at the storyline of a succession of synthetic lives, it's another case of chaos magic giving you what you ask for, isn't it.

Read from the top, with the knowledge that he's just going down into a deeper level, everything makes sense.

These are not the New Gods themselves -- which I'm going to assume this Shilo has already met, but doesn't rightly remember, whether that's because he was a kid, or because he's in the shamanic underworld. Instead, they're Shilo's twisted projection of them as he tries to fight himself free of his own self-image as a celebrity (personified as a world gone to the Dark Side).

And we see the "real" New Gods on page 6, Darkseid and all. This is the vision that Metron gives him on the way in. The phrase "Darkseid won" is translated in Shilo's mind as Dark Side won (not so much of a stretch, really).

What he flashes at himself immediately is his analytic mind, personified by Dezard. DeSaad = Lizard, and now they've all got forked tongues. It's the snake of Eden. Which do you want: science or gnosis? And Dezard is the flip side, the science of good and evil rather than the gnosis of eternal life.

What seemed at first reading to be Shilo's rather passive wandering through the story now becomes Shilo's active attempt to make sense of the data that's coming through. He's in a dream, the noises off are being turned by his critical-paranoiac brain into a story, but one which shifts radically (just as in a dream) and yet he continues to act as if there's a coherent thread. Of course, the one coherent thread is himself.

So after the analytic interpretation of the experience of going further in (which his brain is saying that he got out), he returns to a picture of his empty celebrity life, which he starts to see for what it is: the drug of life, standing between him and what he really is, and really should be doing -- he's pursuing material goals instead of facing up to his responsibility.

This terrible image sends him running back to the analytic mind: Dezard. Dezard rationalizes it for him; now he can cope with still more material, which is still nastier. Dezard tells him some home truths: dualism is crazy, angels are inside us, gamble with death because you can't face life, life is forcing you to change. But Shilo focuses on self-esteem -- which in one sense is the real issue. "Healing a wounded soul can take time".

On to stage two. Dualism revealed as a generative process. The Black Racer against Metron as a testing ground of chess.

We're looking here at the false consciousness of black media. At the top, bling bling and booty and drugs. At the bottom, the drive-by derby. Shilo is Tupac. "From the moment you're born, you start running" -- I bet that's a lifted line. Shilo kicks back into his abilities -- this isn't a simulation, like his stunts, this is life or death. After that, he meets Metron and the New Gods again in a degraded form; but the vision doesn't cohere -- another dream shift of destruction; and Shilo takes the experience back to the analytic mind.

He's got another romantic myth here: Down in the dirt there was brotherhood and community and vision. He's glorifying degredation. But there's an upside to it, too: Every individual human story was worthy of... I don't know... mythology.

(Neat line from Dezard: You and I are going in circles; Dante's Hell.)

Shilo still won't accept the element of symbolism as active and creative. He takes the reductionist vision. And then reduces Motherboxxx to the palliative version of magic: I imagine she's talking to me and it makes me feel calm. Dezard wants Mother Box, but Shilo insists she's personal. Analysis can't get its hands on G-d. And now the story reveals Dezard's evil nature: reductionism that destroys hope and creativity.

Shilo returns to using his powers for vainglory, the new stunt. But he's presented with a dream doppelganger of himself in inverted colours: his negative. He's beginning to reject the image, so it's objectified. (Sidenote: Bedlam is another image of dualism: he's a mind that goes from body to body; reincarnation is not an escape, as we see later; as we might imagine from our Hindu learning, the trick is to get off the wheel entirely.)

The decadence now achieves solid form in the plastic casing around everyone around him as he starts asking himself the question: what's a real escape? what's a real escape artist? The illusion of love arrives -- of course, this will take a hero-shaman off track if she substitutes for his own anima. His anima falling victim to plasticity is Shilo sloughing the false self image and everything that comes with it.

As the false analytic mind is personified by a cheesy analyst, just as he presents himself with his own false image, enter Darkseid: who, naturally, is a cheesy mob boss, straight outta Michael Clark playing Kingpin. And the anti-life equation is reduced down to the simple psychology of Oprah self-esteem, complete with the cheese factor of nuclear destruction on the TV. Visions from the other soldiers sneak in (conning us, the readers, into thinking we're still in continuity here); first to show despair and self-gratification at the expense of others, second to show hope and compassion.

But he's dumb enough to think this makes him strong enough to be a hero, like he sees on the hoarding. He's not prepared yet. He hasn't seen all the way through. Dark Side tells him some more home truths "You think celebrity and money makes you invulnerable" -- as we see later, that was the whole point of it -- "You think your fancy suit makes you a hero?" -- he's been playing at heroism. "You shouldn't have come into my world".

Dark Side is Pluto. Shilo's in the underworld. And he's still playing with an outdated conception that won't help him. "Hit him again". Dezard tortures Mother Box while the goons torture Shilo. Now the false image takes Shilo's place; i.e. Shilo has really lost the false image. But now he's broken down -- and he brings back the image of the broken down Gods to personify it for him. (Anyone else notice they were hanging around at the edge of the panels when he was suffering anti-life?)

So basically, when being anti-lifed, his picture of the world is still false. He sees real life as degraded, not up to par with his celebrity world. He needs to be beaten down further to see the life trap for what it is.

And now he can look his primal scene in the eye. The engram that's been haunting him: his own aspirations to escapology are tied to his brother's death. Real heroism gets you killed. Don't go there.

(Oh, d'you like the headstone citation of MLK? Free at last. Hmmm...)

Suicide doesn't help, it just sends you on to the next life, with your karma still following you. But the auto-therapy is starting to kick in. It's not a penthouse life, it's a burb life with a wife and kid -- but it's incomplete; Aaron's memory is bugging him. Now he shunts into another possible "responsible" life -- slave to the needs of a corporation that wants to kill God. And God is busted down to supervillain size, but still capable of speaking truths.

(I'm working on the premise that working for S.T.A.R or whoever it was is in continuity, but this is a dream version of it; presumably Shilo quit that to go back to being Mister Miracle.)

The cheese of TV nuke fears have resolved into Shiva, lord of destruction. Like Buddha, Shilo has been beseiged by demons outside his circle, and now it becomes clear what the deal is. He sees all his alternate lives as Buddha saw all his previous incarnations -- "I've had a long time to think about this".

And most of all he sees quotidian life as a distraction that prevents you from listening to Mother Box, the Barbelith, the umbilical cord that connects you to the Source (aka atman). And, in a startling switcheroo from Buddhist doctrine, Shilo embraces quotidian life, makes friends with it. Why not? (Mother Box, he's just realized, is a part of him, and not external, not a machine.) He's Bodhisatva: everyone escapes together. (BTW -- Shilo is looking directly at us in this panel.)

Of course, at this point, Dark Side and Dezard, who've already been diminished to a mutt and jeff act, turn on each other. Dark Side himself is caught in the life trap, and those dumb animal impulses make him want to kill Dezard. Which is, itself, the moment when Shilo trashes the false analytic mind in himself, replacing him with the compassionate analyst who can tell him the truth that he's now ready to accept as he achieves self-reconcilation. Now he'll be ready to do his job.

Mind, I still don't know if there's a real world need to free the New Gods or if it was just Shilo's personal psychodrama. But anyway, his job is to be Christ Bodhisatva the Maitreya and "Free all of us".

Sidenote: the goofiness of Shilo's inner world speaks to the goofiness of Jack Kirby's theological conceits. Sure, they're dumb pop culture magic, and you can look down on them.

But they work, don't they?

[Paul McEnery]

Oh yes. That was so worthwhile, it was worth posting twice.

[Wesley Dodds]

OK, this series does work a lot better as a comment on the false consciousness of black media. Bling and bang, the destructive self-image black kids get sold by their entertainment. Shiloh has to break free of it if he's ever going to be able to do anything worthwhile.

He's like a kid who's watched too many cartoons: all this jejune fiction has left him so badly prepared for real conflict that he goes into battle without his motherboxxx.

I think Darkseid really did win off-panel -- Metron talks about restoring the New Gods to their throne on New Genesis and says that Shiloh was chosen "long ago, in the far future" as the one to do it. But they're not trapped in human bodies (why would Darkseid be trapped with them?), Shiloh was just doing what every other character does -- making sense of the world in terms of the way he understands the world. Magic to Zatanna, swords and faeries to the Shining Knight, organised crime and homeless to Mister Miracle.

Well done on drawing out the links to Buddhism, but I disagree with the characterisation of Dezard as the analytic mind. Dezard's function is to stop Shiloh from really thinking. Rationalisation instead of reason. Remember, Metron represents the analytic mind too.

[Wesley Dodds]

The thing is that Shiloh's such a nice guy that he doesn't make you think of gang culture.

[Wesley Dodds]

And perhaps anyone who wants to become one of the New Gods has to go through this initiation: a psycho-drama where they win out against the darkness within themselves. This is an interesting possibility for future stories: humans can join the New Gods if the survive a series of trials.

[Paul McEnery]

OK, this series does work a lot better as a comment on the false consciousness of black media. Bling and bang, the destructive self-image black kids get sold by their entertainment. Shiloh has to break free of it if he's ever going to be able to do anything worthwhile.

He's like a kid who's watched too many cartoons: all this jejune fiction has left him so badly prepared for real conflict that he goes into battle without his motherboxxx.

I think Darkseid really did win off-panel -- Metron talks about restoring the New Gods to their throne on New Genesis and says that Shiloh was chosen "long ago, in the far future" as the one to do it. But they're not trapped in human bodies (why would Darkseid be trapped with them?), Shiloh was just doing what every other character does -- making sense of the world in terms of the way he understands the world. Magic to Zatanna, swords and faeries to the Shining Knight, organised crime and homeless to Mister Miracle.

Well done on drawing out the links to Buddhism, but I disagree with the characterisation of Dezard as the analytic mind. Dezard's function is to stop Shiloh from really thinking. Rationalisation instead of reason. Remember, Metron represents the analytic mind too.
Well, not in this book.

Doing a quick chakra analysis,

Metron = Legba (at the crossroads) = C5 = Gabriel (communication)
Orion = Ogun = C3 = Michael (aggression)
Dezard/Dark Side = Samedi = C6 = Uriel (judgement)
Mother Box (note, MM has even urbanized her name) = C4 = Raphael (compassion)
Granny Goodness = Erzulie = C2 = Anael (desire)

Grant's got a hard on for reductionist analytics (like what Susan Blackmore does), though he doesn't often take a crack at them.

BTW, anyone else notice that the cover for number one, the machine he's on, and him in it, is a figuration of the Tree of Life from the Qabalah?

[Paul McEnery]

Oh, another I can't believe it moment:

Shilo: The one to whom it belongs. In the bible Shiloh is a prophetic name for the Messiah

[DCKar2nist]

2 Questions:
Has Frankenstien ever appeared in the DCU before SS?

And, Whatever happened to the original Guardian & Mister Miracle?

[Doodle Bob]

Oh, another I can't believe it moment:

Shilo: The one to whom it belongs. In the bible Shiloh is a prophetic name for the Messiah

OK... time for the obvious pointers in this direction:

1. MM is being crucified on the cover of MM#1

2. The entire miniseries details how he "died", struggled in hell, and then was resurrected.

Clearly, MM is the Christ figure of the Seven. Unfortunately, the metaphor more or less stops there, since he isn't particulalry sacrificing himself for anything or anyone except himself.

However, the story does have a medieval air to it. The black hole is like the Siege Perilous, a place that a knight needs to go in order to prove himself and in which all of the usual rules of reality are bent, much like Chinatown and that place in Dagobah.

[Paul McEnery]

OK... time for the obvious pointers in this direction:

1. MM is being crucified on the cover of MM#1

2. The entire miniseries details how he "died", struggled in hell, and then was resurrected.

Clearly, MM is the Christ figure of the Seven. Unfortunately, the metaphor more or less stops there, since he isn't particulalry sacrificing himself for anything or anyone except himself.

However, the story does have a medieval air to it. The black hole is like the Siege Perilous, a place that a knight needs to go in order to prove himself and in which all of the usual rules of reality are bent, much like Chinatown and that place in Dagobah.

Well we've got several different mythologies all in one. In the Judaic system alone, we've got Jonah-Job-Jesus (Jesus in the wilderness before his mission); but we've also got Buddah during his enlightenment. And doubtless other initiatory rituals as well.

[Paul McEnery]

2 Questions:
Has Frankenstien ever appeared in the DCU before SS?
Yes. Len Wein book in the 70s.


And, Whatever happened to the original Guardian & Mister Miracle?
There've been a few Guardians. The last one? Don't know.

As for MM, again, nobody knows; but Shilo was part of the original story as sort of an apprentice.

[Wesley Dodds]

Yes. Len Wein book in the 70s.

"Son of Frankenstein", but that character isn't much like this one. He's done to Son of Frankenstein what he did to Klarion.

[CaptMagellan]

Well, not in this book.

Doing a quick chakra analysis,

Metron = Legba (at the crossroads) = C5 = Gabriel (communication)
Orion = Ogun = C3 = Michael (aggression)
Dezard/Dark Side = Samedi = C6 = Uriel (judgement)
Mother Box (note, MM has even urbanized her name) = C4 = Raphael (compassion)
Granny Goodness = Erzulie = C2 = Anael (desire)



While I agree completely with your Buddhist analysis above, this support is like numerology - you'll find the connections you want whether they are there or not.

Especially when mixing Dahomean Loas, Western Ceremonial Qabbalah, and Hindu metaphysics. Three things which have absolutely nothing in common except for in the minds of arrogant Western occultists of the 19th and 20th centuries who designed their systems specifically to make connections where there weren't any (historically or culturally).

I mean, I could make similar comparisons to the main characters within the Mahabharata (Metron - Krishna; Orion - Bhima; Darkseid - Duryodhana; Mother Box - Draupadi; Granny Goodness - Gandhari) but that doesn't mean that they are truly there.

But other than that minor nit-pick I think your analysis (especially of Shiloh taking a Bodhisatva role) is really cool.

[Paul McEnery]

While I agree completely with your Buddhist analysis above, this support is like numerology - you'll find the connections you want whether they are there or not.

Especially when mixing Dahomean Loas, Western Ceremonial Qabbalah, and Hindu metaphysics. Three things which have absolutely nothing in common except for in the minds of arrogant Western occultists of the 19th and 20th centuries who designed their systems specifically to make connections where there weren't any (historically or culturally).

I mean, I could make similar comparisons to the main characters within the Mahabharata (Metron - Krishna; Orion - Bhima; Darkseid - Duryodhana; Mother Box - Draupadi; Granny Goodness - Gandhari) but that doesn't mean that they are truly there.

But other than that minor nit-pick I think your analysis (especially of Shiloh taking a Bodhisatva role) is really cool.
You'd be surprised.

I came up with this system of comparisons myself on accident, when I needed to flesh out the list of archangels for a novel, found they were all wonky, and picked up the loa and the chakras as a way to cheat.

And found the correspondences worked disturbingly well.

Which one might imagine they might, if you think of them as seven basic modes of human existence being articulated in different systems.

So you would expect them to show up in the Mahabarata, just as you expect to find them on the bridge of the Enterprise, or in the classic 7 of The Authority/JLA.

[CaptMagellan]

Which one might imagine they might, if you think of them as seven basic modes of human existence being articulated in different systems.

So you would expect them to show up in the Mahabarata, just as you expect to find them on the bridge of the Enterprise, or in the classic 7 of The Authority/JLA.

Without getting into a debate on the merits of making inter-traditional correspondences divorced of the deeper specifics and cultural matrices, sure. But I think better arguments could be made for Greco-Roman correspondences to Kirby's creations than Dahomean or Yoruban ones.

It's a bit like the correspondences the Romans made when first encountering the Germanic tribes. Yes, Wotan has many similarities to Mercury (which is very similar to Metron in some ways), but he's not the same god and the differences outweigh the similarities when you go deeper than the surface gloss. Legba is outwardly a god of 'communication' and 'open roads' but in many ways he is more like Lucifer than any archangel. Same with Legba's surface similarities to Lord Ganesh, Odhinn, or Yog-Sothoth - those similarities are only the outermost layer of what they represent.

But as long as we can agree that Shiloh is Bugs Bunny to Dark Side's Yosemite Sam with Desaad's Daffy Duck in the middle, we'll all be on the same page. ;)

[Paul McEnery]

Without getting into a debate on the merits of making inter-traditional correspondences divorced of the deeper specifics and cultural matrices, sure. But I think better arguments could be made for Greco-Roman correspondences to Kirby's creations than Dahomean or Yoruban ones.

It's a bit like the correspondences the Romans made when first encountering the Germanic tribes. Yes, Wotan has many similarities to Mercury (which is very similar to Metron in some ways), but he's not the same god and the differences outweigh the similarities when you go deeper than the surface gloss. Legba is outwardly a god of 'communication' and 'open roads' but in many ways he is more like Lucifer than any archangel. Same with Legba's surface similarities to Lord Ganesh, Odhinn, or Yog-Sothoth - those similarities are only the outermost layer of what they represent.

But as long as we can agree that Shiloh is Bugs Bunny to Dark Side's Yosemite Sam with Desaad's Daffy Duck in the middle, we'll all be on the same page. ;)
See, now I'm just going to seem Mr. Ernest E. Earnest, but Grant of course works with Voodoo archetypes, as well as grabbing wholesale the Greco-Roman archetypes.

And Metron does, indeed, describe himself as "rebel" among other things. Clearly a snake-in-the-grass Promethean type.

Which clearly makes Metron Bugs Bunny.

Shilo is Elmer Fudd.

[CaptMagellan]

See, now I'm just going to seem Mr. Ernest E. Earnest, but Grant of course works with Voodoo archetypes, as well as grabbing wholesale the Greco-Roman archetypes.

And Metron does, indeed, describe himself as "rebel" among other things. Clearly a snake-in-the-grass Promethean type.

Yeah, I don't think anyone really knows where they stand with crafty Metron. Even when it's clear he's telling the truth, my gut reaction as a reader is "Don't trust him! He's not telling you the whole story!"

I'm just being snarky now, but until Morrison get's info on Afro-Caribbean gods from sources other than Maya Deren and Michael Bertiaux (which were his self-admitted sole sources during the creation of "The Invisibles"), I'll put him in the extreme layman category in regards to knowledge about them. Maybe he's done more research since then, but really, unless he's become initiated (or has sources who are initiated) or has decided to delve a lot deeper academically, he's still operating at that superficial level in regards to these traditions.

I love Morrison as a writer, and as a Chaos magician, but he's not exactly an expert about the various indigenous traditions he's written about.

[CaptMagellan]

Which clearly makes Metron Bugs Bunny.

Shilo is Elmer Fudd.

You are absolutely right. That I can now clearly see and agree with. ;)

But as for cereal mascots: Is Metron Tony the Tiger? Is Shiloh the Trix Rabbit?
And is Darkseid the Quaker Oats guy?

[Paul McEnery]

And another theme floats up to the surface: innocence despoiled.

Obvious when you think about it. Camelot in SK (especially the girl in the cauldron). The whole town in Klarion, but even more so the Melmoth Kids. The Newsboy Army in MG. In Zatanna, it's a bit more subtle, but there's the thing with Zatanna's own childhood, and of course Misty's. Mister Miracle, the whole point of the initiation was to get back his childhood innocence. And Frankenstein looks brutally at high school, child slavery, and even fwuffy wittle wabbits.

And it seems to me that what we're looking at more than anything else is the trauma of moving from childhood to adulthood; and a wrong turn taken because of an excess of innocence, a rigid binary purity that when faced with the gray world slips all too quickly from the white to the black out of a sense of betrayal.

[Paul McEnery]

Yeah, I don't think anyone really knows where they stand with crafty Metron. Even when it's clear he's telling the truth, my gut reaction as a reader is "Don't trust him! He's not telling you the whole story!"

I'm just being snarky now, but until Morrison get's info on Afro-Caribbean gods from sources other than Maya Deren and Michael Bertiaux (which were his self-admitted sole sources during the creation of "The Invisibles"), I'll put him in the extreme layman category in regards to knowledge about them. Maybe he's done more research since then, but really, unless he's become initiated (or has sources who are initiated) or has decided to delve a lot deeper academically, he's still operating at that superficial level in regards to these traditions.

I love Morrison as a writer, and as a Chaos magician, but he's not exactly an expert about the various indigenous traditions he's written about.
Fair enough.

And the depths of my research only extend further into Wade Davis, Suzanne Blier, Zora Neale Hurston, and Odile something or other (the City Lights book). Well, that and a "sorceror" pal of mine who's summoned Baron Samedi and went for a drink by the riverside with him.

But then again, Voodoo is itself a syncretistic religion which, one would imagine, would lend itself to that kind of archetypal emergence. The tables in these books show the variance in the gods, their distinct chracteristics from the various source traditions, and the ease with which they grafted onto their African alternates

[CaptMagellan]

But then again, Voodoo is itself a syncretistic religion which, one would imagine, would lend itself to that kind of archetypal emergence. The tables in these books show the variance in the gods, their distinct chracteristics from the various source traditions, and the ease with which they grafted onto their African alternates

Yup. There is a 'famous' saying that "Voodoo includes, it doesn't exclude" (or something to that effect). The only caution to that is that, more often than not, it brings things in and modifies them to fit an African mythological structure and not the other way around - i.e., the saints (in operant practice) become more like the Loas/Orishas which can be a bit disturbing to an 'orthodox' Catholic understanding.

Edited to add: Have you read Wade Davis' "Passage of Darkness: The Ethnobiology of the Haitian Zombie"? It's his more academic overview of his ethnobotanical research in Haiti. It's not as pop-culture interesting as "the Serpent and the Rainbow" but is fascinating nonetheless.

But I really don't disagree with you - other than in minor specifics. I think I'm just arguing to pass the time until I can get Bulleteer #4 this afternoon. ;)

[berk]

Yeah, it's pretty clear that the red-haired Sally and Alex are doubles of one another, with the difference being that Alex's excessive innocence was a matter of having led a sheltered life rather than being the tragic character flaw that it was for Sally. Sally was just too trusting for her own good - right from the start, really, when she unhesitatingly accepts the magic whistle(!) from the little old lady (a deceptively benign fairytale-witch-type?). She does learn, but much too slowly in relation to the gravity of the tests she undergoes - allowing herself to be bundled off to an orphanage at age 24, putting up with the obviously malicious Madame Martinette for too long, etc. And when she does rebel against personal injustice (i.e. injustice directed at her, as opposed to the strangers she saves), she tends to run away rather than confront it. She's easy prey for the superficially upright, but deeply sleazy "Vitaman," trusting him for far too long after it should have been obvious that he was no good. From one POV, all this can be traced to a failure to develop, to reach maturity: she's emotionally and psychologically vulnerable becasue she's still caught at a child's stage of development in which the world is thought of in terms of a parental relationship, innocently trusted to aid and protect her. When she finally wakes up to the callousness and brutality around her, the shock is too great and she becomes embittered to the point of madness. Of course, the mechanism used is the "Hyde Formula," which she takes under psychological and emotional duress; she knows she doesn't want it, but she can't make that step towards maturity on her own, the step that would have enabled her to use her physical power to defend herself from her oppressors. I thought her story very, very sad.

Alex, in contrast, while she certainly has to struggle with the loss of her charmed life of innocence, is consistently realistic about it. She makes mistakes, but not of the fatal sort that Sally makes, and she adapts much more quickly. Of course, it's partly a function of having been a mature adult when her process of initiation into the brutal realities of life began, rather than the young girl Sally was. In fact, Alex's down-to-earthness and common sense might be her most distinguishing characteristic, as we see it exemplified in the final scene, in which she refuses to blindly trust the apparition of Saunders.

But she isn't out of the woods yet, since her words in that last scene appear to indicate a desire to retreat from the brutal realities she's been forced to confront - "I don't want anything more to do with this twisted, horrible world" - and she refuses to help Saunders "save the world." She's on the verge of failing the initiation because the reality of the world is too terrible to face; and is it even worth saving? (World, save yourself.").

But I think there's at least one more twist to that final scene: her refusal to follow Saunders - who, after all could well be a hallucination - is balanced by her determination to get on with the less glamourous job of taking Sally to the hospital. It's common sense and lack of pretension coming to the fore again: helping her fallen adversary get badly needed psychological treatment might not sound as important as saving the whole world, but on the human scale, who's to say it isn't? Maybe, contrary to all appearances, Alex is makiong the right decision - for now; based on what we know about the seriousness of the threat Saunders is talking about, she won't be able to deny it for much longer without dire consequences.

[Steve Brady]

And another theme floats up to the surface: innocence despoiled.

Obvious when you think about it. Camelot in SK (especially the girl in the cauldron). The whole town in Klarion, but even more so the Melmoth Kids. The Newsboy Army in MG. In Zatanna, it's a bit more subtle, but there's the thing with Zatanna's own childhood, and of course Misty's. Mister Miracle, the whole point of the initiation was to get back his childhood innocence. And Frankenstein looks brutally at high school, child slavery, and even fwuffy wittle wabbits.

And it seems to me that what we're looking at more than anything else is the trauma of moving from childhood to adulthood; and a wrong turn taken because of an excess of innocence, a rigid binary purity that when faced with the gray world slips all too quickly from the white to the black out of a sense of betrayal.

Morrison has talked a lot about getting the DCU to grow up. Compare Ed: growing older but never growing up.


The original hero in the current DCU is the Crimson Avenger, right? Which is why his costume gets used at JLA initiations? And of course, he was an original Soldier.

Lance Harrower's wife is the spear not thrown. I'm still holding out for a Nebula Rod to show up B)

[Steve Brady]

Damn.... April 26th for all our answers.

http://www.dccomics.com/comics/?cm=5116

[berk]

Morrison has talked a lot about getting the DCU to grow up. Compare Ed: growing older but never growing up.


The original hero in the current DCU is the Crimson Avenger, right? Which is why his costume gets used at JLA initiations? And of course, he was an original Soldier.

Lance Harrower's wife is the spear not thrown. I'm still holding out for a Nebula Rod to show up B)In MM#4, Oracle says something like "Did the spear find its mark?" Have there been any other references to the spear so far in the various SS books? Given Alex Harrower's super-hard skin and elongated, tapering helmet, she could even be a physical 'human-spear'.

[Paul McEnery]

Of course, she's now deliberately not "being thrown".

And that nice old magic lady is more than a little 7 Unknown Men-ish.

Hmm. Does this make Vigilante an Unknown Man? What's our list look like at the moment?

[Michael Painter]

Did anyone else notice that 7 of Britain's underworld crime bosses were looking on to Vitaman's presentation of Sally Sonic.
I wonder if Alix is actually then following her specific purpose by not getting into the battle, as she is the spear that was never thrown. It makes me wonder if she herself would betray the team if she does get involved. And I really liked that this issue, Alix will take Sally to the hospital, and that all she wanted from