SEVEN SOLDIERS: Speculation & Spoilers

[The Shadow]

That's funny, because I thought Bulleteer 1 was fantastic.
As did I.

I really enjoyed it. Paquette's always been a favorite of mine and the cover was a killer.

[CaptainAwesome]

It's been hinted that Shilo isn't just a human but has some sort of New God (or darker?) heritage. Since he has dark skin, does this mean that he comes from Apokalips (is that how it's spelled?)? It also seems like Orion and Miracle both have middle skin tones compared to others. Maybe this hints at their "traded" heritage if Shilo is, in fact, not human.
Ok Im not sure, but i think that they are just supposed to be black. I know in the past Shilo has always been black, and I dont think he is a new god. He was just a homeless kid that was really good at escaping I think. He took the mantle of Mr. Miracle when scott free was on New Genesis I think. But then again, it could be something silly like what you said. :)

[Michael Painter]

The preview to Bulleteer #2 is up at buzzscope.com
It pretty much confirms who is working with Alix, and it explains Gimmix's connection to the original Girl of a Thousand Gimmicks.

[The Shadow]

Question regarding Bulleteer: Was issue #1 her first appearance?

[Michael Painter]

Yes Alix Harrower aka Bulleteer's first appearance was issue one of her limited series.
Also, it the whole mess of the brothers of the Spyder family looks to be resolved in the preview of Bulleteer 2.

[The Shadow]

Yes Alix Harrower aka Bulleteer's first appearance was issue one of her limited series.
Also, it the whole mess of the brothers of the Spyder family looks to be resolved in the preview of Bulleteer 2.
Thanks! :D :D

[Wesley Dodds]

If it hasn't been mentioned, "croatoan" comes from a Harlan Ellison short story of the same title, from the collection Strange Wine. After an abortion, man descends into the sewers to find the foetus he flushed down the toilet (to placate his now-hysterical girlfriend) and fines the subterranean community croatoan -- well, it turns out all those aborted babies aren't dead, they've managed to survive... down there... and they're looking for a father.

Not much to do with the croatoan in Seven Soldiers, though -- unless the Sheeda turn out to be aborted babies!

[Wesley Dodds]

And, from the preview:

My Hellen Helligan prediction was right! Well, it was a no-brainer, but there you go. Great. She's a really likable character.

[jerrymcl89]

If it hasn't been mentioned, "croatoan" comes from a Harlan Ellison short story of the same title, from the collection Strange Wine. After an abortion, man descends into the sewers to find the foetus he flushed down the toilet (to placate his now-hysterical girlfriend) and fines the subterranean community croatoan -- well, it turns out all those aborted babies aren't dead, they've managed to survive... down there... and they're looking for a father.

Not much to do with the croatoan in Seven Soldiers, though -- unless the Sheeda turn out to be aborted babies!

IIRC, the word 'Croatoan' was found carved on a tree at the site of the lost British colony at Roanoake ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Colony ), which Morrison seems to have chosen as the origin of Klarion's people. Ellison would have gotten it from the same source.

[Shellhead]

IIRC, the word 'Croatoan' was found carved on a tree at the site of the lost British colony at Roanoake ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Colony ), which Morrison seems to have chosen as the origin of Klarion's people. Ellison would have gotten it from the same source.

Correct. And Ellison mentioned the Roanoake thing in his extensive introduction to that Strange Wine collection. Someday, I hope we find out what really happened to that lost colony.

[Paul McEnery]

IIRC, the word 'Croatoan' was found carved on a tree at the site of the lost British colony at Roanoake ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Colony ), which Morrison seems to have chosen as the origin of Klarion's people. Ellison would have gotten it from the same source.
Well, Grant's cheerfully shallow. I dare say he came across the name from the Semiotexte (or was it Autonomedia) book "Gone to Croatoan" -- a study of American utopian communities which came out in the early 90s.

Which adds another rather interesting layer of meaning.

The Cinderella City is a utopia of unrealized architecture -- and yet, of course, "the World" turns into somewhere very nasty in Guardian.

Underneath, we have another intentional utopia, which turns out to have been seeded by Melmoth, and just for the hell of it, apparently.

The Sheeda seem to be here either to instigate or punish vainglory.

[K'Nort]

When you visit a thread that says spoilers in the title, how can you NOT expect a story to be spoiled, even if it's a future solicit??

For the record, I avoid solicits and would prefer spoiler tags around those. Rules -- and culture -- changes from one forum to another around here, but sometimes Spoiler in the title just means specific to this issue. For the sake of people who get mail order, are waiting for the trade, or will otherwise be delayed. It does not automatically always mean solicits. So although there is certainly no way to require folks to add tags for solicits, it is very considerate.

[4DGlasses]

In Klarion #4, Melmoth states that Croatoan is an AI composed of a pair of dice. Could this be a halved Mother Box?

Does anyone know appearances of fourth world characters before 7S:MM?

So far, before 7S:MM, Shilo has appeared in the recent Crime Syndacate story from JLA. Darkseid was pinned to the Source Wall in Superman/Batman. Scott Free and Big Barda were seen in a recent issue of JLA post-Crisis of Conscience.

Anyone else I'm missing?

[Squashua]

In Klarion #4, Melmoth states that Croatoan is an AI composed of a pair of dice. Could this be a halved Mother Box?

You -> Nail -> Head.

[4DGlasses]

You -> Nail -> Head.

Maybe.

Also, if it is a divided Mother Box, did Bors of the Broken Table split it in Shining Knight #3?

[Sk8maven]

"Pair o' Dice" = "Paradise"? :rolleyes:

Maven

[4DGlasses]

"Pair o' Dice" = "Paradise"? :rolleyes:

Maven

A stretch worthy of Reed Richards. I salute you! :cool:

What was Zor doing at the Gold place? He was the one who took Ali Ka-Zoom's hat when he was a kid, right? The Terrible Time Tailor who set up Captain Seven in Manhattan Guardian #4?

[Sk8maven]

"Pair o' Dice" = "Paradise"? A stretch worthy of Reed Richards. I salute you! :cool:No, actually, I was remembering the "punchline" of an Ellery Queen short story. And if I remember it, so can Grant Morrison.... ;)

Maven

[Aaron King]

Nothing for Bulleteer #2 yet? We find out how this whole thing relates back to the old Seven Soldiers of Victory. And we learn where the Sheeda are from. And that awesome FBI agent from Shining Knight is back.

[Wesley Dodds]

Comics are going to be a week late in Australia due to a plane crash so somebody spoil the story for me -- please.

[NoChildren]

And we learn where the Sheeda are from.

We did? I must have missedt hat one! :) Unless you're referring to that line , "From the future."

Bulleteer #2 is probably the most satisfying issue so far, if only because it's the first thing to really tie back to SS#0 in a concrete way. While reading, I had convinced myself that Bulleteer's husband was the missing #7 soldier, but then it made perfect sense that it was she.

[Sandy Hausler]

Nothing for Bulleteer #2 yet? We find out how this whole thing relates back to the old Seven Soldiers of Victory. And we learn where the Sheeda are from. And that awesome FBI agent from Shining Knight is back.

It came out. I haven't read it, yet.

Sandy Hausler

[TCJohnson]

We did? I must have missedt hat one! :) Unless you're referring to that line , "From the future."

Bulleteer #2 is probably the most satisfying issue so far, if only because it's the first thing to really tie back to SS#0 in a concrete way..

I disagree. I loved Shining Knight and Klarion the Witch boy and really like Zantanna and Guardian...but I just can't get into Bulliteer for some reason.

[NoChildren]

I disagree. I loved Shining Knight and Klarion the Witch boy and really like Zantanna and Guardian...but I just can't get into Bulliteer for some reason.

I mean satisfying as in "finally starting to answer some of the questions from SS#0."

[Michael Painter]

Well, Wesley I think this week's title totally revealed how this book is related to the other miniseries, except for Frankenstein and Mister Miracle, which is to be expected.

Okay, first off, Alix is introduced to Agent Helen Helligan, known to most of us from the third issue of Shining Knight. She reveals some things of about the Soldiers in issue 0. First off, the Alias the Spyder character is implied to have killed his brother, Lucas, who showed up awhile back in Starman and Hawkman. Gimmix is revealed to be the estranged daughter of the original girl of a thousand Gimmicks, Mary Pemberton. The Zatanna info about Dyno-Mite Dan is revealed, Vigilante's health issues, and then its shown how bad Helen is after her attack, which according to her,happened the night before! We also learn Helen's sister's wedding isn't such a great affair as her sister is marrying someone who is abusing her.
Next, we learn that Bulleteer was the mysterious Seventh Soldier, but she thought against it. Helligan brings Alix along with her with Alix in costume to the penitentary, where they interrogate Ramon Solomano ( Spanish translation is funny), aka The Hand, aka the Iron Hand, aka the Napoleon of Crime. The Iron Hand was the original Seven Soldiers' nemesis, and in order to get Ramon talking, we find out that Helen stole from the night before his priceless fifteen million dollar Iron Hand from the Manhattan Museum of Superhumanity while the other cops were investigating the fact that some kids had stolen a World War II subterran machine. ( hmm, I wonder who?) Helen then makes Alix take off a finger each time Ramon won't talk. After three fingers are broken, Ramon lets on that he didn't create the original Nebula Man. It was the same Nebula Man seen in issue 0. Ramon called him using an item, I'll let you see. Ramon learned that Vigilante was putting together a new team, and Ramon's nephew infiltrated the team, and recalled Nebula Man to attack Vigilante's team.
We then learn that Ramon went after Vigilante primarily because he thought Greg Saunders was first racist when he met him. Greg had arrested Ramon when he had been part of a gang, and harrassed a guy named Lupelino, a guy of Hispanic descent. We learn though that Lupelino was harrassed because he was a werewolf, and that Vigilante early in his career had been bitten by werewolves, and was one ( like a dormant wolf, though) Ramon laughs, but then he dies suddenly after hearing the news. Alix and Helen then speed off, with Helen deathily ill, and Helen calls someone to forgive her for something she did to his milkshake.( I guess Gloriana was right, she is pure) Alix and Helen then rush off to the wedding that day in New York, and before she dies, Helen tells her sister not to marry her fiancee, Lido Lupelino, because he's a werewolf. Helen dies in Alix's arms, and Alix regrets her story. The last page ends with Alix leaving her apartment, and telling her new young tenant, "Sara", after the story, and the weird bodyguard job (next issue) that she's off. "Sara" tells her that she would make a great superhero despite what she says. She ends saying while holding an umbrella, "Maybe all you really need is some sort of nemesis, you know, like a deadly arch villain of your own." We end with a back shot of "Sara." She's broken the umbrella. And there you go. [/QUOTE]

[Wesley Dodds]

No, really, I need to know what happened in this issue! I'm not going to have mine for another week!

But with the covers and solicits for March in, I can comment on them:

Well, I was right about Mister Miracle. Darkseid is going to use the omega effect on him at the end of issue 3. I really liked the inscription on MM's gravestone on the cover of issue 4: "free at last". Life as the last prison MM has to escape from to be truly free. Not sure if he's the soldier who must die, though. The copy makes me suspect we may see a story similar to Morrison's Doom Patrol finale, where Crazy Jane is in the real world -- and the only way out is suicide.

The Bulleteer confronts her husband's e-mail paramour -- who's apparently the immortal in the first issue of Zatanna: 75 but looks 16. And issue 3 promises L'il Hollywood -- so, The Shining Knight and Zatanna have a connection to Ali Ka Zoom, Guardian to Baby Brain, and Bulleteer to L'il Hollywood. Fine, but if the Newsboy Army set up this ambush of the Sheeda, what's Klarion's connection?

And as we knew, Frankenstein finishes in faerieland -- earth in the future? On the cover's he's riding a scary-looking horse. I'm looking forward to the promised rampage.

[Wesley Dodds]

Ah, thanks, Michael, you champion. I'll just read it right now.

[Wesley Dodds]

Ah, so:

Sara's the girl from Zatanna 1, looks 16 but is actually 75?

[Michael Painter]

yep Wesley. Her online screenname on the porno site was Sonic Sally though.

[berk]

The line that stood out for me in Bulleteer #2 was: "Stay with me. I know it's a lot of information, but that's the way I work. Everything at once. Next slide please." - all of which struck me as a comment on Morrison's non-linear story-telling technique in SS, with a back-handed acknowledgement in the final sentence that, the comics medium being what it is, its basic sequential nature is impossible to escape in the end (har! get it?). And, of course, not only the comics medium, but language itself - even human thought - is subject to this limitation - at least at our present stage of development, we can do no better than attempt to approximate "non-linearity". Our minds aren't capable of seeing the whole "picture" (Helligan uses this word several times throughout the story) at once, at least not for very long (mystics and magicians may disagree).

Helligan's line about "the authority of a tight, colourful costume" raised the problematic issue of the potentially fascistic tendancies of the superhero concept in general; not sure if Morrison's going anywhere with that or it was just an aside.

Bulleteer's costume has to be one of the worst designs I've ever seen. Paquette was probably going for an elegant Queen Nefertiti [edited for sp.]effect, but she ended up looking like a conehead from the old Saturday Night Live show. I disagre with the whole idea, though. Harrower's costume - which, by the way, isn't really much more revealing than everyday clothes - is much less striking than the contrast between her metallic skin and ordinary attire. The shiny skin is her defining aspect; Like the Silver Surfer, the best move would have been for her to wear next to nothing at all.

Not sure if I should use spoiler tags for this since it seemed pretty obvious and maybe even has already been revealed somwhere, but anyway - looks like the mole in the SS was "Boy Blue" and his magic horn was the device used to summon "Nebula Man."

Solomano's remarks about "no such things as heroes, only weak fools whp want to believe in them," reminded me of Badde's comments in Klarion #2, I think it was.

[Doug Strange]

Bulleteer's costume has to be one of the worst designs I've ever seen. Paquette was probably going for an elegant Queen Nerfititi effect, but she ended up looking like a conehead from the old Saturday Night Live show.I haven't formed an opinion yet, but my wife ADORES the Bulleteer's costume, helmet especially. The Bulleteer is probably her favorite super-heroine now.

"But, honey, she hasn't really DONE anything yet..."

"I don't care. She's awesome and that's that."

[4DGlasses]

Bulleteer #2 was awesome!

Alix was the one with cold feet from Seven Soldiers #0. I had originally guessed it was the Shining Knight from Identity Crisis thinkning maybe he got cold feet after seeing Ronnie die by HIS sword.

WTF??? Vigilante's a werewolf??? Gloriana's a vampire, will Mister Miracle end up playing the role of a mummy???

The Hand summoned the Nebula Man, Neh-Buh-Loh, with the Horn of Boy Blue from 7S #0.

Teenage Superporno.

:D
\m/,

Writing A+ for connecting galaxies of plot threads (even to Klarion #3!!!)

Art: A-. I want to see nipples. Bullet-like nipples. Next Issue.

After disappointment in Mr. Miracle, Bulleteer hits the spot.

[berk]

I haven't formed an opinion yet, but my wife ADORES the Bulleteer's costume, helmet especially. The Bulleteer is probably her favorite super-heroine now.

"But, honey, she hasn't really DONE anything yet..."

"I don't care. She's awesome and that's that."Well, my opinion probably lost all credibility when I spelled Nefertiti as "Nerfititi".

I agree that it's hard to say much about her personality so far. I think the most striking characteristic is that she's a completely involuntary hero, probably even more reluctant to play that role than Klarion or Shilo. WHich is interesting both in itself and in that it reflects on something Paul McEnery was saying recently in the thread. But I'll save my comments for another post that I want to make about SS#0 which I juts re-read.

[EDIT:]It just occurred to me that the vagueness of Harrower's character so far makes sense because its a reflection of her reaction to what's happened to her: she doesn't really know what to do with herself, how to adapt to this new state of being, and has been more or less floundering, making one half-hearted move (responding to Vigilante's ad) which she then failed to follow through. I do think it's funny that Morrison took two issues to get that across, though.

[4DGlasses]

[EDIT:]It just occurred to me that the vagueness of Harrower's character so far makes sense because its a reflection of her reaction to what's happened to her: she doesn't really know what to do with herself, how to adapt to this new state of being, and has been more or less floundering, making one half-hearted move (responding to Vigilante's ad) which she then failed to follow through. I do think it's funny that Morrison took two issues to get that across, though.

Niiice.

Alix doesn't have the first clue, nor the interest in superheroics. I think it's hilarious that Sky High Halligan used the Bulleteer as hired muscle on a psychological bend, seeing as how she survived an ambush plotted by the Hand. The only surviving member of the 7S #0 incarnation of the Seven Soldiers of Victory. SO brilliant!

[SpartanX]

In what order should i read Seven Soldiers?

[4DGlasses]

There's a checklist in the back that you can follow, or read them in this order:

Seven Soldiers #0
Each mini series #1-4, any order (not available until May 2006)
Seven Soldiers #1

[Wesley Dodds]

Well, you could read the mini-series in order:

Seven Soldiers 0, Shining Knight, Guardian, Zatanna, Klarion, Mister Miracle, Bulleteer, Frankenstein, Seven Soldiers 1

Or, you could read them the way they're being collected. That is, in the order of publication:

(moving from issue 1 of SK to issue 1 of G, from K 1 to SK 2, and so on)

1st wave: Shining Knight, Guardian, Zatanna, Klarion

2nd wave: Mister Miracle, Bulleteer, Frankenstein

Or you could just read whatever minis interest you plus the bookends

I recommend reading them in order of publication because the revelations are well-paced. Of course, Zatanna 4 was very late, not coming out until the same weak as Frankenstein 1, and Mister Miracle 1 came out just after Guardian 4 -- but I think it works better to keep the two waves of titles separate, finishing off the first 4 titles before Mister Miracle's story begins.

[Shellhead]

I recommend reading them in order of publication because the revelations are well-paced. Of course, Zatanna 4 was very late, not coming out until the same weak as Frankenstein 1, and Mister Miracle 1 came out just after Guardian 4 -- but I think it works better to keep the two waves of titles separate, finishing off the first 4 titles before Mister Miracle's story begins.

I suspect that is the best way to read them, which would explain why that checklist appears in every single issue of this project.

[JolietJake]

I found it helpful to give them a re-read once I had several of them. Mainly because the story is so broad that I catch more if there's not a 2, 3, or 4 week gap between installments.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I loved the "werewolf racism" bit. Hilarious.

[4DGlasses]

Did anyone else notice that Boy Blue was missing from the slide show Agent Halligan gave Bulleteer?

The horn is apparently what summons Neh-Buh-Loh, seen in the Hand's flashback.

I think Boy Blue was a traitor, working with the Hand. Maybe even related to the Hand.

[Bat-Mite]

Err... the issue explains that Boy Blue was actually Lupino's (the guy with one hand in jail) nephew and that summoning Ne-Buh-Loh to kill the entire team was his job. No way to get lost there.

[4DGlasses]

Err... No way to get lost there.

Err. there is if you, like, accidentally skimmed over that panel. :o

Like Agent Halligan said: "Stay with me. I know it's a lot of information, but that's the way I work. Everything at once."

[Doug Strange]

Err... the issue explains that Boy Blue was actually Lupino's (the guy with one hand in jail) nephew...You mean Solomano (heh...portentous name). Lupelino was the surname given to some of the werewolves.

[Bat-Mite]

Solomano (heh...portentous name).

It sounds more like a name for someone who beats his meat and not a guy with just one hand, though.

[Radical_dreamer]

Im gonna wait for the trades. They seem to be jumbled up and ordered in the way morrisson intended it to be.

[4DGlasses]

They need to collect DC One Million the way they're collecting 7S. All inclusive.

[Michael Painter]

You know I reread Bulleteer#2, and I just noticed that The original Golden Age Whip is in the scene with Vigilante when they have captured the One Hand Gang, and Ramon. I guess the Whip did have his run with more than cowboys, like Greg said in Seven Soldiers 0 to Gloria.
Another thing, for those confused with the milkshake reference, if you reread Shining Knight 3, Helen's only impure deed was to put fish oil in her brother's strawberry milkshake. So in Bulleteer 2, before she died, she told her brother not to go to the wedding and that she was sorry for the milkshake. Plus, one quote, "The satellite view," is repeated from Shining Knight 3, when she's talks to the disguised Gloriana.
Now after rereading parts of the Shining Knight, Bulleteer, and Klarion series, I think that Guardian so far seems to be the closest to what begins in Seven Soldiers #1.
We still do not know how the Sheeda have taken over New York so quickly, which makes me guess that the last three titles will deal with this soon.
Boy, even the most obscure references come back in Seven Soldiers.

[Wesley Dodds]

Well, the Sheeda time travel -- so they attacked New York from the place between the ticks of a clock.

Hey, Frankenstein gets around, huh? Next month he visits Mars and in his final issue he travels to faerieland, which we now know is in the future. Planet-hopping and time travel in the same series.

I would love to see a Frankenstein ongoing when this series is over. He's The Terminator, but he's on our side -- and he's a Christian! Or, at least, a huge Milton fan.

I'd be neat if Kim turned out to be Helen's daughter, wouldn't it?

[4DGlasses]

On newsarama, we discussed Mister Miracle being represented as a knight in the chess game between Black Racer and Metron. It was brought to my attention by Ashbazg that the knight is the only piece that can attack a queen from outside her line of attack...

I still insist that living cars are NOT scary. Not even in that Steven King movie Christine.

[Michael Painter]

4DGlasses, I never thought of that. That's very interesting because of all the books so far, Mister Miracle has had no Sheeda reference. So maybe Shilo's line of attack will come out of nowhere for Gloriana.
The other thing I wanted some people to maybe respond is doesn't the cover to Bulleteer #2 look a lot like the movie poster to Fritz Lang's movie Metropolis? I thought it did, which makes me think Alix is an analogue to the robot female who was getting used to the world.

[4DGlasses]

That's very interesting because of all the books so far, Mister Miracle has had no Sheeda reference.

Remember, too, that Manhattan Guardian was not immediately connected to the Sheeda until we learned about the Newsboy Army of Nowhere Street.

Solicits say MM #3 will have an incredibly HUGE cliffhanger. :cool:

[Michael Painter]

Well, you know to counter, Mister Miracle so far has not referenced any other Seven Soldiers, unlike Guardian, which already was going to connect to Klarion.
I don't know there just seems to be something we've been missing from the title that just isn't apparent.

[Gingold]

Bulleteer #2 was good. Makes sense that a character who is essentially a human silver bullet would go up against werewolves.

Question- was the Greg Saunders/werewolf reveal established history or was this the first mention of it? Regardless, it's a pretty cool idea.

[Michael Painter]

No, the Greg Saunders/Vigilante reveal was completely new. Yeah, a silver bullet( Alix) is used by Helen as her weapon against Solomano and Lupelino, the werewolf of the piece.
Pretty clever stuff that really keeps making me reread Seven Soldier for connections, influences, and themes.

[4DGlasses]

Well, you know to counter, Mister Miracle so far has not referenced any other Seven Soldiers, unlike Guardian, which already was going to connect to Klarion.


And the only mention of Shilo in other series totals one mention of his black hole stunt in Guardian IIRC.

[Razorgirl]

hi there! i'm new to the forum but joined especially to talk to others about Seven Soldiers because this series has totally blown me away! i liked the idea when i heard about it but found it initially too difficult to read such disparate story threads so far apart as i waited for each arc to be resumed, so after read the first 3 i waited until the last Zatanna before reading all of them to date. now there's no way i can wait until SS1 before resuming - i need it all!

so some thoughts and questions...

justin is by far my favourite soldier so far. i am a big fan of the old-fashioned values of honour and virtue and seeing someone despairing of living turn back and say that they will do what it takes to prevent calamity as long as they still stand is so inspiring! makes missing the bus seem pretty trivial really!

bulleteer i initially detested. i think that in the writing morrison was making a comment on the fetishisation of women superheroes that yannick pretty much missed. as a woman reading comics i like to see STRONG and successful women, not women whose defining features are their breasts. the art was very sexy - i had to demonstrate to a friend by actually acting out how she moves and poses to show how provocative it is because he initially argued this. the art for me really clashed with the words behind it.

BUT! come issue 2 all was forgiven [nearly] because it was fantastic! this is the first time we've had a lot of the threads woven together directly and it reminded me all over again how many layers and how much depth there is to this. i also liked Alix's costume because despite being quite revealing it actually *isn't* especially sexy - i liked the Nefertiti likening because that is it, she is regal and distant and in control now but in a functional unemotional way. she is resigned but still not happy so she isn't being flamboyantly appealing, just Doing the Job. somebody commented earlier that her outfit doesn't flatter her striking skin, but i think that's partly the point - she is now cold and mechanical and operating like a machine until she develops her understanding and acceptance of her new form. that's how it sits with me anyway...

Not sure if it's been mentioned yet as i've tried reading back through old posts but there are a LOT! but - does anyone have any ideas on the significance of Alix Harrower?

also, how do we know Sara is Sally? they don't look especially alike to me, did i miss something in the text?

[K'Nort]

For those who don't already know, Vol 3 of Crisis on Multiple Earths includes the final adventure between the original Soldiers, Ramon, and the Nebula Man. And as a bonus for those reading the new Crisis, there's a Freedom Fighters story as well.

Two editions floating around:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1401202314.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

http://www.sasquatchcomics.com/images/crisis_vol3.jpg

[Michael Painter]

Hi Razorgirl! It's good to find someone who likes Seven Soldiers, and this thread especially.
Just to point it out a gain, Alix Harrower, the Bulleteer title in general according to Morrison is his "Bendis" book, which makes complete sense. It does because the first two issues alone could be spread out in two arcs, and notice there's a little snub at the Jessica Jones character in a way. Alix is a reluctant hero and objectionalized for her looks by her husband, but she's doing what she's supposed to be doing by being in the superhero community. I think Morrison really is implying that its wrong for Jessica Jones to be writing for a newspaper when she still has powers, and that she went through her trauma, and should move on.

The Harrower name is significant for Alix I think because we'll know soon. I bet it has more to do with her husband and the Smartskin.
And we know that Sara is Sally because the solicitations for Bulleteer mention Alix's nemesis being a 75 year old stuck in a 16 year old's superheroine body. And her description is fairly similar to the the comment the 75 year-old made in Zatanna #1 about not being able to get a drink, which was probably because she looked like a minor.
I hoped that helps.

[Bat-Mite]

Speaking of the Golden Age Seven Soldiers Nebula Man and knowing Morrison, I think all the events from the Golden Age story will happen after the events of the current Seven Soldiers series, at least from the point of view of Ne-Bu-Loh. Somehow Ne-Bu-Loh will be sent to the past to fight the Seven Soldiers (which may explain why he doesn't have his trusty Spider sidekick in that old story).

Morrison loves all that time travel paradox mess thing.

Of course, this means that the final fate of Ne-Bu-Loh occurs in an issue of Stars and STRIPE where he gets embarrassingly killed by Courtney, but that the heck.

[4DGlasses]

justin is by far my favourite soldier so far. i am a big fan of the old-fashioned values of honour and virtue and seeing someone despairing of living turn back and say that they will do what it takes to prevent calamity as long as they still stand is so inspiring! makes missing the bus seem pretty trivial really!

Glad you like 7S, too! Welcome to CBR!

My personal favorite quote of all time comes from Shining Knight #3:

"...all men are liars in this age, Justin.
Words can mean anything and everything, that is why they have no proper shape here.
What was once truth is pliable, untrustworthy, and slippery now.
Words cannot be trusted in this age. Only deeds."

Effing brilliant.

[berk]

Regarding Paul's idea that one of the functions of the Sheeda is to punish vainglory - I didn't really see what he meant until I re-read SS#0. And it now occurs to me that Alix is possibly the least vainglorious (as in the most reluctant) of the Seven. Might her metallic skin, which should make it impossible for any of those little devils to take her under control, even be in part an externalisation of this idea?

In any case, I wonder if this oculd also be a clue as to which of the Seven will be the one to die; since the first Seven, all of whom appear to have been operating from vainglorious motives (among others), were all killed or harvested or harrowed by the Sheeda, can we guess that the Soldier who must die this time is the one who is most vainglorious? And if so, which one might that be? Shilo, since his entire career is based on risking death for fame and money? Guardian, because he took the job for hire and to restore his self-esteem? Zatanna, because ... well, her entire attitude? You can make a case for almost all of them. And against, as well - Shilo may be even more reluctant than Alix, Guardian seems more like a guy who just wanted a second chance than someone after personal glory, Zatanna really did "save the world" (I think), etc, etc.

[Shellhead]

In any case, I wonder if this oculd also be a clue as to which of the Seven will be the one to die; since the first Seven, all of whom appear to have been operating from vainglorious motives (among others), were all killed or harvested or harrowed by the Sheeda, can we guess that the Soldier who must die this time is the one who is most vainglorious? And if so, which one might that be? Shilo, since his entire career is based on risking death for fame and money? Guardian, because he took the job for hire and to restore his self-esteem? Zatanna, because ... well, her entire attitude? You can make a case for almost all of them. And against, as well - Shilo may be even more reluctant than Alix, Guardian seems more like a guy who just wanted a second chance than someone after personal glory, Zatanna really did "save the world" (I think), etc, etc.

The last time a "Soldier" died, it wasn't really one of the Seven Soldiers, but a sidekick to one of the Seven Soldiers who was never considered one of the Seven. Maybe this new batch of Seven Soldiers will cheat death for now. Or maybe the Vigilante will count as the dead Soldier.

[4DGlasses]

The last time a "Soldier" died, it wasn't really one of the Seven Soldiers, but a sidekick to one of the Seven Soldiers who was never considered one of the Seven. Maybe this new batch of Seven Soldiers will cheat death for now. Or maybe the Vigilante will count as the dead Soldier.

Mister Miracle #4 has Shilo's tombstone on the cover.

However, the sidekick death makes me think that Misty is our fatted calf.

[mdg1]

Speaking of the Golden Age Seven Soldiers Nebula Man and knowing Morrison, I think all the events from the Golden Age story will happen after the events of the current Seven Soldiers series, at least from the point of view of Ne-Bu-Loh. Somehow Ne-Bu-Loh will be sent to the past to fight the Seven Soldiers (which may explain why he doesn't have his trusty Spider sidekick in that old story).

Morrison loves all that time travel paradox mess thing.

Of course, this means that the final fate of Ne-Bu-Loh occurs in an issue of Stars and STRIPE where he gets embarrassingly killed by Courtney, but that the heck.

But he DID have a Spider sidekick in that story...I, Spyder's father.

In any case, the original story is specifically mentioned in Bulleteer #2.

[Sandy Hausler]

I'm not a big continuity freak, but I have not seen mentioned in this thread, which I 've been following since the start, about some unexplained problems. For instance, the Klarion in SS is clearly not the Clarion from Demon (and other places). For one thing, this Klarion has never been to the surface before. Second, while Shilo Norman was a character in the original Mr. Miracle comic, what's the status of Scott Free? Of course, there is a Guardian in Metropolis, who is not the same guy as the one in Manhattan. And how is the new Shining Knight connected with the old one. (Heck, the old one was a member of the original SS.)

Maybe all of the earlier characters are being written out of continuity during Infinite Crisis and this series takes place after Infinite Crisis. It isn't that big a thing. The series is good (though it amazes me how much thought some of you posters have put into it -- sometimes, too much). But when you are in a shared universe, continuity does mean something. Was this issue ever explained?

Sandy Hausler

[mdg1]

Well, the original Shining Knight was seen in a photo in Seven Soldiers #0, so he's in continuity. Ystin came from a different Camelot, anyway. And "Ed" specifically mentions buying the Guardian trademark from Cadmus in GUARDIAN #1. While Scott hasn't been mentioned, he may still show up or get a nod in the last two MM issues.

So really, only Klarion is a mystery. And that mystery may get solved before the end.

[JKCarrier]

No, the Greg Saunders/Vigilante reveal was completely new.

Interestingly, there was a 1970s issue of WORLD'S FINEST where Superman and Vigilante battled a werewolf. If anyone has a copy handy, it would be interesting to see if there's anything in there that foreshadows the idea that Vig was infected:

http://www.comics.org/coverview.lasso?id=25523&zoom=4

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Seven Soldiers is definitely set in the DCU, Morrison has gone to great lengths to explain how everything fits the history we know, even though he is giving us radically different interpretations of these characters.

The only character who seems to have actually gotten a complete reboot was Klarion, and that will likely be explained by the spooky retcon patrol living in Slaughter Swamp.

And, if it isn't, I can't say I really care. Morrison's revamp of Klarion is much better than anything that's been done with the character, even Kirby.

Call it an Infinite Crisis hiccup and move on, I say...

[Bat-Mite]

But he DID have a Spider sidekick in that story...I, Spyder's father.


Oh no, not that Spider. I mean the Spider thing he rides on.

[Bat-Mite]

Speaking of Klarion, Morrison himself has said from the beginning that this is pretty much a reboot of Klarion, and that he apologizes for making all of his prior appearances out of continuity.

[K'Nort]

Speaking of Klarion, Morrison himself has said from the beginning that this is pretty much a reboot of Klarion, and that he apologizes for making all of his prior appearances out of continuity.

He feels the need to apologize for wiping out bum bum BUM?

[Bat-Mite]

Apparently. Although, in a following interview he cracked a few jokes about the Bum Bum Bum thing, so he was probably just being polite and not regretting erasing that thing out of continuity.

[ultramandingo]

morrison has got to do a regular ( vertigo?) frankenstine book , ......if he dont kill him ( if he can be killed ) and cant wait to see the digested melmoth return

[Be Stiff]

I'm not a big continuity freak, but I have not seen mentioned in this thread, which I 've been following since the start, about some unexplained problems. For instance, the Klarion in SS is clearly not the Clarion from Demon (and other places). For one thing, this Klarion has never been to the surface before. Second, while Shilo Norman was a character in the original Mr. Miracle comic, what's the status of Scott Free? Of course, there is a Guardian in Metropolis, who is not the same guy as the one in Manhattan. And how is the new Shining Knight connected with the old one. (Heck, the old one was a member of the original SS.)

I'm liking Seven Soldiers. I dislike this trend - seems a bit Byrne Victimy to me.

[noh-varr]

Originally Posted by Sandy Hausler
I'm not a big continuity freak, but I have not seen mentioned in this thread, which I 've been following since the start, about some unexplained problems. For instance, the Klarion in SS is clearly not the Clarion from Demon (and other places). For one thing, this Klarion has never been to the surface before. Second, while Shilo Norman was a character in the original Mr. Miracle comic, what's the status of Scott Free? Of course, there is a Guardian in Metropolis, who is not the same guy as the one in Manhattan. And how is the new Shining Knight connected with the old one. (Heck, the old one was a member of the original SS.)
I'm liking Seven Soldiers. I dislike this trend - seems a bit Byrne Victimy to me.

I do believe we've covered this before, but it's a differant Klarion, the old one can still exist if (for some reason) we want to return to the Bwa Ba Da Witch Boy! Guardian's company got went broke and they sold the rights/armor/name of the Guardian and the newspaper bought it. Scott Free was referred to when Morrison was talking about the series before it started that all of the previous stuff happened but whatever changed the New Gods took out Shilo's memory of it all as well, hence no Scott Free yet. And we all know Shining Knight is still around, this is just a differant Knight.

[Sandy Hausler]

Originally Posted by Sandy Hausler
I'm not a big continuity freak, but I have not seen mentioned in this thread, which I 've been following since the start, about some unexplained problems. For instance, the Klarion in SS is clearly not the Clarion from Demon (and other places). For one thing, this Klarion has never been to the surface before. Second, while Shilo Norman was a character in the original Mr. Miracle comic, what's the status of Scott Free? Of course, there is a Guardian in Metropolis, who is not the same guy as the one in Manhattan. And how is the new Shining Knight connected with the old one. (Heck, the old one was a member of the original SS.)


I do believe we've covered this before, but it's a differant Klarion, the old one can still exist if (for some reason) we want to return to the Bwa Ba Da Witch Boy! Guardian's company got went broke and they sold the rights/armor/name of the Guardian and the newspaper bought it. Scott Free was referred to when Morrison was talking about the series before it started that all of the previous stuff happened but whatever changed the New Gods took out Shilo's memory of it all as well, hence no Scott Free yet. And we all know Shining Knight is still around, this is just a differant Knight.

You are right, we did cover this. I think it would be a stretch to think that the old Klarion still exists. I mean, if I recall correctly, this Klarion even has a cat by the same name as the old one did. I'm perfectly happy to believe that old Klarion is nothing more than a memory and the Young Justice story is out of continuity. Most of his original appearances were pre-Crisis anyway.

BTW, Klarion is a Kirby creation and the Dum Dum DUM thing was a (bad) Peter David innovation (in my opinion).

I'm not particularly satisfied with the Guardian explanation. The Metropolis Guardian was a clone of the original and I don't believe that anyone could own the rights to the name. As far as I'm concerned the Metropolis Guardian still exists. But again, this doesn't really detract from the story.

The Shining Knight thing is the least easily explained (if it has to be). Another knight (with the same name) from Camelot comes to the present with a winged horse (with the same name). I would normally think that the new guy is replacing the old guy in continuity, except the old guy is part of the original SS (and they've already futzed around with the composition of the team because of the Crisis).

Again, this is not a big thing. Just something to talk about.

Sandy Hausler

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Morrison's already mentioned that there will be a meeting between the Golden Age Shining Knight and the ancient Proto-Camelot Shining Knight at some point in the future, which will no doubt go into the cyclical nature of the various Arthurian Eras that have existed throughout DCU history--which is one of the better ideas to come out of Seven Soldiers in my view. Giving creators the ability to come up with radically different versions of King Arthur and his knights scattered throughout time and space allows for a lot of cool stories.

[Sandy Hausler]

Morrison's already mentioned that there will be a meeting between the Golden Age Shining Knight and the ancient Proto-Camelot Shining Knight at some point in the future, which will no doubt go into the cyclical nature of the various Arthurian Eras that have existed throughout DCU history--which is one of the better ideas to come out of Seven Soldiers in my view. Giving creators the ability to come up with radically different versions of King Arthur and his knights scattered throughout time and space allows for a lot of cool stories.

That's good.

Just out of curiosity, where did he already mention it. I do read the Comic Buyers' Guide and glance at news on this site, but I'm not a fanatic about digging out the dirt in advance, so I never saw this statement.

Sandy Hausler

[Steve Brady]

That's really narrowing down the list for the soldier who must die. My money had been on Ystin, as he/she is the most redundant (I'm starting from the presumption that Morrison isn't retconning, though I guess I have to exclude Klarion). And Ystin arguably has the most to pay back the Sheeda for. Klarion and Frank's real enemy was Melmoth, Zatanna and Alix and Guardian just sort of fell into it, and who knows what's going on with Shilo.

Of course, if Morrison follows the original story, which he seems to be so far, it'll be an 8th soldier anyway.

[Bat-Mite]

If it is an eight soldier, then it will probably be Misty, who so far has played the role of Snow White and the Seven Soldiers pretty well. She might get resurrected by a kiss from prince charming though. Whoever he ends up being.

[Michael Painter]

Did anyone feel very interested in Frankenstein #2 when Melmoth said he was the last king.
I mean I know he was the last king of the Sheeda, but I had a feeling that perhaps he was the last king of Earth, and that the theory someone put that the Sheeda are from the future might be correct, and that the Sheeda are fated to be Earth's last civilization. Maybe Gloriana needs the Soldiers to be destroyed in order for her realm to continue to exist as well.

[4DGlasses]

Did anyone feel very interested in Frankenstein #2 when Melmoth said he was the last king.

I'm wondering if Melmoth is really Mordredd the Dead, ursurper of the throne of Camalot, from Shining Knight.

[Doug Strange]

I don't know, but if Frankenstein isn't the Soldier to get his own series after this, I'll eat my goddamn boot. Bulleteer would also be nice, and that's the one my wife wants to see, but I WANT FRANKENSTEIN.

Brilliant issue this week.

[4DGlasses]

I don't know, but if Frankenstein isn't the Soldier to get his own series after this, I'll eat my goddamn boot. Bulleteer would also be nice, and that's the one my wife wants to see, but I WANT FRANKENSTEIN.

Brilliant issue this week.

I'd honestly like to see a Seven Soldiers ongoing, with ALL the members. Maybe similar to an extended LOSH format.

And how cool is the concept of Aboriginal Martians??? :cool:

There's an ongoing in itself!

[Bat-Mite]

I'm wondering if Melmoth is really Mordredd the Dead,

Don't think so. We saw him getting nuked in the Shining Knight mini.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

That's good.

Just out of curiosity, where did he already mention it. I do read the Comic Buyers' Guide and glance at news on this site, but I'm not a fanatic about digging out the dirt in advance, so I never saw this statement.

Sandy Hausler

It was an online interview, but I can't remember which site it was. I think it was the post-mini interviews he did for The Pulse.

[4DGlasses]

Don't think so. We saw him getting nuked in the Shining Knight mini.

You should know as well as I do that death is not the end in comics. Especially if you're dealing with concepts like the Cauldron of Rebirth.

But hey, you might be right. :)

[Wesley Dodds]

I really liked this issue. Frankenstein's trek across the martian landscape (with a camping stop) was something out of a Western, crossed with Edgar Rice Burroughs' John Carter novels. And there's the Viking Lander (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_program).

If you go back and look at Klarion 4, you'll see Melmoth had his arm bitten off by Klarion. The way it was drawn, I thought Melmoth was in energy form after being liberated from his body, but this issue makes it clear he was actually just on fire.

I'm not sure how Melmoth's immortality works. In issue 1 of Frankenstein he was decapitated and then his head was at the centre of an explosion. Yet in this issue it seems as if he just replaces severed body parts. Perhaps, with enough time, he regenerates, but like Frankenstein he can just attach new body parts.

This issue made clear the connection between the Grundies of Limbo Town and Solomon Grundy of Slaughter Swamp. Perhaps the Grundies are slow-witted because their bodies decay before they're brought back to life, but Frankenstein is intelligent because he was brought to life with a fresh brain?

So, when Sir Justin threw the cauldron off Castle Revolving, it landed in Slaughter Swamp, which gave Melmoth immortality, which created Frankenstein... I like the way Morrison is putting this together. The Guardian stopped the President Clinton at just the right time to save Klarion from Horigal, which meant Klarion found half of Croatoan...

Melmoth's line about the "last King ever" fits in with what we know about the Sheeda -- not only are they from the future, they're from the very end of human history. We get to see it in Frankenstein 4, but Misty's already told us what it will look like -- black flowers covering the earth.

[Steve Brady]

I'm wondering if Melmoth is really Mordredd the Dead, ursurper of the throne of Camalot, from Shining Knight.

From Shining Knight, I'd say Mordredd was already around, and he fits within the proto-Arthurian myth. I took Melmoth's dialogue to mean that he and Gloriana were partners, but then he decided to dump him after their raid on Camelot, leaving him behind without a way back to Summersend. Which also fits the last king / from the future theory.

I do wonder how Melmoth managed to fill his veins with water from the Cauldron before Ystin sent it through time, but Gloriana didn't.

I think I need to re-read Shining Knight B)

[Steve Brady]

I'm not sure how Melmoth's immortality works. In issue 1 of Frankenstein he was decapitated and then his head was at the centre of an explosion. Yet in this issue it seems as if he just replaces severed body parts. Perhaps, with enough time, he regenerates, but like Frankenstein he can just attach new body parts.

This issue made clear the connection between the Grundies of Limbo Town and Solomon Grundy of Slaughter Swamp. Perhaps the Grundies are slow-witted because their bodies decay before they're brought back to life, but Frankenstein is intelligent because he was brought to life with a fresh brain?

So, when Sir Justin threw the cauldron off Castle Revolving, it landed in Slaughter Swamp, which gave Melmoth immortality, which created Frankenstein...

Ah, okay, so Melmoth had access to the Cauldron much later. I wonder how long a time span there was. Perhaps he was naturally long-lived or "immortal' in the sense that he wouldn't naturally die, but post-Cauldron he's immortal in the "cannot be killed" sense.

[Wesley Dodds]

Melmoth said he was kept alive by magic until he found the Cauldron of Life --but he was a withered husk until the Cauldron rejuvenated him.

[4DGlasses]

Melmoth said he was kept alive by magic until he found the Cauldron of Life --but he was a withered husk until the Cauldron rejuvenated him.

withered husk?

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c42/fourdglasses/SK304.gif

Last king mentioned.

OK, I'm starting to get conservative Morrisonite on everybody. :o Morrison's writings are the word of DOG!!!

[Doug Strange]

Well, that settles it for me. Great catch, 4D.

[mdg1]

If it is an eight soldier, then it will probably be Misty, who so far has played the role of Snow White and the Seven Soldiers pretty well. She might get resurrected by a kiss from prince charming though. Whoever he ends up being.

Well, if Melmoth was a king, and Frankenstein is technically his son....

[Bat-Mite]

... then I sure as hell wouldn't want to be in Misty's shoes.

[berk]

Regarding the continuity question, my feeling is that it's more honest if the writer just admits he's doing his own personal rendition of a character rather than try to maintain that the new version is actually consistent with the original. For example, Chuck Austen's recent Eternals mini and the 12-issue Eternals maxiseries done in the 70's are equally unrelated to Kirby's original creation, but I have less of a problem with Austen's book because he never tried to pretend it had anything more to do with Kirby's Eternals than the title. The 70's maxi, on the other hand, was presented as a sequel to the original series, but was at least as disconnected from Kirby's concept and characters as Austen's more recent book.

Bringing it back to Seven Soldiers, I'm much more favourably impressed with Morrison's Klarion than I was with his Orion (in his JLA run), partly because Morrsion isn't really trying to pass off this Klarion as the same character Kirby gave us in the Demon; and partly because, in spite of the many inconsistencies with Kirby's original, I think Morrison's Klarion is much truer to the spirit of the original than was his Orion, in spite of the fact that the JLA Orion is supposed to be "in continuity."

Whenever (usually due to DC's promotional efforts) I start to think of SS as a series that's paying a lot of attention to continuity with the DCU, I begin to lose interest a little. I'm not too interested in the DCU or the MU - I think each of them is a bloated mess that has more to do with the exertion of corporate control over the characters than with any creative motivations - and couldn't really care less about maintaining an impossible and therefore hypocritical continuity within either.

[4DGlasses]

I'm not too interested in the DCU or the MU - I think each of them is a bloated mess that has more to do with the exertion of corporate control over the characters than with any creative motivations - and couldn't really care less about maintaining an impossible and therefore hypocritical continuity within either.

I think the 52 writing staff might be building bridges to other staff members. Making great suggestions as opposed to half-baked editorial demands.

I mean, except for some of the recent Jeph Loeb stuff and a few others, I think almost all of DC's books are great.

Continuity isn't necessarily a bad thing, but strict adherence to is. As long as the essence of the characters is maintained, I don't mind if a writer takes things in new directions. I personally LOVE Firestorm and Black Panther. Lots of folks don't seem to care for it, but both keep me coming back to the bookstore.

I still can't believe that a book starring Klarion the Witch Boy has been GREAT!

And the Young Justice Klarion sucked. So did PAD's butchering of Lobo. :evilangry

[firstlight/lastlight]

I have not yet started reading the series. What's up with the trade? Is there an order to read the issues that will make them better?

[mdg1]

As I understand it, the trade collects the first 8 issues released, mixing the separate minis into the proper reading order.

It seems likely, although by no means confirmed, that there will also be separate trades for each miniseries at some point.

[Lex]

"Proper reading order" is debatable. The best way to read them, in my opinion, is each mini-series as its own seperate story. This trade collects the first 8 issues that were released, but I think that's a horrible way to collect the series. Sure, it was fine to read the single issues that way, but in a trade I think it will look bizzare and confusing.

[jerrymcl89]

Reading each mini by itself is probably fine, although I think it's important to read them in release order, at least (Shining Knight, Guardian, Klarion, Zatanna, Mr Miracle, Bulletteer, Frankenstein). The last two in particular would not be as good if you hadn't already read SK, Guardian, and Klarion.

[Lex]

I didn't get the impression that reading SK, Guardian and Klarion improved Bulleteer and Frankenstein. So far they both seem very enjoyable by themselves.

[Steve Brady]

I didn't get the impression that reading SK, Guardian and Klarion improved Bulleteer and Frankenstein. So far they both seem very enjoyable by themselves.

Sure, but reading Klarion #3 and #4 let you know why Melmoth is seeking a new arm, and give extra meaning to Billy's heroism, in Frank #2.

I'd recommend reading them in release order, and then each mini in order. This is something you'll be able to read many times and still see new things.

[Michael Painter]

Well, I couldn't buy the first trade paperback because I was buying the new Fables trade, but I did get to peruse some of the extras. I guess one of the untold things so far is that Merlin is supposed to been or was a Sheeda sorcerer, and that's how three of the treasures, according to Gloriana, were stolen.

[milk114]

so I haven't been following anything about Seven Soldiers other than solicits.

I read #0 when it came out over a year ago and decided I'd buy the trades whenever they came out. When the first trade was shown in Previews I questioned the order thing too. But I bought the first trade.

And having read it through today I think it was an excellent idea to collect in release order. I'm suprised by how interconnected the mini-series are, more so from the get-go than I ever expected. Of course there are many questions left unanswered as I only got to read the first two issues of Shining Knights, Guardian, and Zatanna and the first issue of Klarion, but this trade made me salivate for more. Because I have a better sense of what Morrison is doing, better than reading individual solicits for the mi-series. When I have all four trades in hand, I'll reread each mini on its own to see how that works out, but I have faith in Morrison, and faith that he's being allowed to fulfill his vision.

I want to see spin-offs and on-going series of Morrison's Seven Soldiers. This is the best money I've spent in quite a while.

[4DGlasses]

I want to see spin-offs and on-going series of Morrison's Seven Soldiers. This is the best money I've spent in quite a while.

Same here.

The recent Wizard has a picture of the Jake Jordan Guardian in the Meltzer JLA article.

Johns confirmed an appearance by the Seven Soldiers in Infinite Crisis. Can't wait to see how they interact with the rest of the DCU.

[Will.S]

Same here.

The recent Wizard has a picture of the Jake Jordan Guardian in the Meltzer JLA article.

Johns confirmed an appearance by the Seven Soldiers in Infinite Crisis. Can't wait to see how they interact with the rest of the DCU.
It's going to be so weird seeing them outside of the Seven Soldiers books since they feel so self contained barring maybe Zatanna who's the only SS showing up in a few books.

Oh and Frankenstein rocks hard.

[Guts/Batman]

Frankenstein #2 kicked ass. Oh God am I loving Frankenstein.

[Brady]

Same here.

The recent Wizard has a picture of the Jake Jordan Guardian in the Meltzer JLA article.

Johns confirmed an appearance by the Seven Soldiers in Infinite Crisis. Can't wait to see how they interact with the rest of the DCU.

I noticed Guardian in that JLA pic. He was tucked away up the back. No mention of him at all in the article, but why put a character with no connection to the JLA in the picture, unless he's gonna be in the team? So I think he'll be in, which means I'll be picking up Meltzer's JLA for sure.

I wish Morrison could just write 7 new ongoing series though.

[berk]

Like everyone else, I was very impressed with much of Frankenstein #2, although I did find the end a little rushed. Melmoth's big revelation ("I am your father, Luke!") didn't have much dramatic impact, for example, but this might have been intentional.

Loved the narration of the monster's journey across "the mournful sandscapes of the Red Planet," right from the very first lines, "First over the horizon comes Fear. And at its heels, Terror." I capitilize the nouns here because the first thing these lines evoked for me was the Greek gods Phobos and Deimos, personifications of Fear and Terror, which accompanied Ares into battle. And those myth-evoking lines set the epic, mythic tone for the entire first section of the issue, where the implacable Frankenstein makes his way across Mars to Melmoth and vengeance. Excellent synthesis of words and images throughout the entire sequence - great job by both creators.

Some interesting ideas come to light in the seciond part of this issue. We aren't really told much that we didn't already know, but the presentation here, the way certain concepts were juxtaposed with one another, was very suggestive.

Take, for instance, Melmoth and Gloriana. What do we have here but an estranged King and Queen each of whom has appeared in the series as malevolent, demonic creatures of strange and frightening power, the archetypal "bad father" and "bad mother".

Gloriana "devours civilizations" (did Morrison hire Dave Sim as a consultant for the character? - kidding!), "harvests" them, leaving "a few wretched survivors ... to seed the next crop." She's a demonic parody of the earth mother, the agricultural goddess who nurtures the crops and thus humanity.

Melmoth tries to present himself as a necesssary antagonist to the Gloriana, a creative force who'll save humanity from the demonic Mother that threatens to engulf and devour it. And he is a creator - but his creations are dead, soulless things, fit only for "heavy lifting" - slaves. His creativity is a dead end, used only as a means to extend his own personal power. His self-described "benevolence" is nothing more than a desire to save humanity from death in order to exploit them as slaves to the most brutal degree imaginable. The tyrannical Father is no better an alternative than the devouring Mother for wretched humanity (never mind Sim, it's Freud would have been all over this stuff).

Not sure if Morrison is hinting that it is the separation of the male and female principles into autonomous elements that has made them into the demonic, malevolent forces they have been in this series so far. If so, perhaps we might anticipate some sort of reconciliation at the series end - not between Gloriana anfd Melmoth themselves of course, but perhaps between genuinely benevolent successors?

I see the Milton-quoting, father-killing Frankenstein as a successful Lucifer - an oppressed, persecuted Son whose rebellion is carried to fruition - he destroys the Father-Tyrant, at least insofar as such a being can be destroyed. (We shouldn't be confused by the fact that Melmoth himself is a devil-figure in some ways - remember the Gnostic view that the authoritarian Father-God of the Old Testament was in actuality a false god, claiming an omnipotence he did not truly possess). Freud's 'Totem and Taboo' contains some interesting speculation on the importance of this scenario in the psychic pre-history of humankind.

The preview for the next issue of Frankenstein is all the more provocative in light of soem of these ideas - "The Monster demands a mate!" Is Frankenstein instinctively attempting to redress or at least avoid his "father" Melmoth's error? And to whom is this "demand" adressed, now that he's killed both his nominal fathers? Has he found a new surrogate?

[Paul McEnery]

Anti-Mum and Anti-Dad, innit? The distortions of the masculine and feminine principles in Western Civ, aka Marduk and Tiamat, Babylonian Gods of order and chaos respectively. The interesting thing is that Gloriana is ascendent -- Babalon rising?

Melmoth is a nice archetype of the melodramatic villain who just will not die -- Fu Manchu to Ras Al Ghul, convinced that their tyrannical vision will save mankind.

[Shellhead]

The in-depth analysis of Frankenstein in this thread sounds right on target to me, but it's interesting that these issues also work so well as an exercise in surface style. The hussar uniform, the huge sword, the stitches in dead flesh, the strange and ominous speeches, the brute force, the pulp weirdness of Mars... such powerful imagery, with this strong undercurrent of jungian archetypes. I love it all.

[Michael Painter]

You know that Gloriana is obviously based on the Elizabeathen era. Well, Misty's original name was Vicky, a shortening of the name Victoria. So, basically the Sheeda are longer-living magical English royalty.

[4DGlasses]

You know that Gloriana is obviously based on the Elizabeathen era. Well, Misty's original name was Vicky, a shortening of the name Victoria. So, basically the Sheeda are longer-living magical English royalty.

Vicky??? I missed that one.

Was that one of the special features in the 7S Vol.1 TPB???

[Michael Painter]

4D Glasses, it wasn't in the TPB, but in the original solicits for Zatanna #2, Misty was originally named Vicky.

[mdg1]

Loved the narration of the monster's journey across "the mournful sandscapes of the Red Planet," right from the very first lines, "First over the horizon comes Fear. And at its heels, Terror." I capitilize the nouns here because the first thing these lines evoked for me was the Greek gods Phobos and Deimos, personifications of Fear and Terror, which accompanied Ares into battle.

And, of course, Phobos & Deimos are the moons of Mars. A literal rising, described poetically.

[berk]

And, of course, Phobos & Deimos are the moons of Mars. A literal rising, described poetically. Hah - I completely missed that!

[Shellhead]

And, of course, Phobos & Deimos are the moons of Mars. A literal rising, described poetically.

That's very cool.

[Indigo Al]

Much better than last issue

I like that we don't really know where the Sheeda's hand is in all of this.

And a very harrowing interpretation of the Anti-Life Equation, things that Morrison has also touched upon in Invisibles.

[Bat-Mite]

By the way, I don't think I have seen this mentioned here, but according to Dan Didio's last Crisis Counseling gig at Newsarama, Seven Soldiers takes place after Crisis and runs parallel to 52.

It is somewhere in here. (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=56070)

[Paul McEnery]

Much better than last issue

I like that we don't really know where the Sheeda's hand is in all of this.

And a very harrowing interpretation of the Anti-Life Equation, things that Morrison has also touched upon in Invisibles.

In #3, it still seems like it's Highfather's crew who want MM as their champion against Dark Side but, as far as I can see, the deal is that Shilo's being trained up to fight the Sheeda on all the New Gods's behalf.

[Michael Painter]

Well, Mister Miracle's connection to the other Seven Soldiers titles has been revealed in issue #3. Interesting for Morrison to say that Shilo's only option to escape the Dark Side is suicide.
But looks like while Shilo was walking in lament over the Anti-Life Equation, the Deviant Ones and Klarion passed him by in the Pumpkin Taxi.
Also, it seems the hurricane mentioned was Hurricane Gloriana, mentioned in Guardian #3.
And Jonelle makes reference to Smartskin, a Bulleteer reference.
This book is connected, but boy it sure is the weirdest of all the mini-series.

[AlistairCrane]

By the way, I don't think I have seen this mentioned here, but according to Dan Didio's last Crisis Counseling gig at Newsarama, Seven Soldiers takes place after Crisis and runs parallel to 52.

It is somewhere in here. (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=56070)

Yep, so finally that whole to-do can be put to rest. It's OYL, just as we thought.

[Wesley Dodds]

The anti-life equation -- making people empty on the inside so they focus on the glittering, meaningless things in life, symbolised by the plastic people.

I don't know what's going on with the Deviant Ones and The Guardian -- the Deviant Ones splash some people, but The Guardian gives one of them his coat, so Shiloh is able to beat the anti-life equation? What the!? He didn't even have a coat!

Notice that Shiloh fails because of his shortcomings as a hero -- Dezard is able to just take his motherboxxx from him because he's too disoriented to react, and later the only thing he can think of is to bribe the thugs. He didn't get with the program quick enough, and he paid the price for it.

And I was right about Baron Bedlam -- he's a fake escape artist who just destroys one of his bodies to make it look as though he's performed an impossible escape.

I thought the panel of Dezard "torturing" the motherboxxx was a nice touch.

In all probability the next issue will be similar to Morrison's final issue of Doom Patrol, where Crazy Jane tried to escape the gray world through suicide. A little too Gothic for me, though -- the idea of suicide as escape to a better world leaves me pretty cold.

[Wesley Dodds]

In #3, it still seems like it's Highfather's crew who want MM as their champion against Dark Side but, as far as I can see, the deal is that Shilo's being trained up to fight the Sheeda on all the New Gods's behalf.

Interesting take on it -- New Genesis and Apokolips, working together to craft a champion capable of fighting the Sheeda. Which is why Orion and Lightray let Darkseid do all this to Shiloh before helping him.

[berk]

Well, Mister Miracle's connection to the other Seven Soldiers titles has been revealed in issue #3. Interesting for Morrison to say that Shilo's only option to escape the Dark Side is suicide.
But looks like while Shilo was walking in lament over the Anti-Life Equation, the Deviant Ones and Klarion passed him by in the Pumpkin Taxi.
Also, it seems the hurricane mentioned was Hurricane Gloriana, mentioned in Guardian #3.
And Jonelle makes reference to Smartskin, a Bulleteer reference.
This book is connected, but boy it sure is the weirdest of all the mini-series.I still don't see the connection - am I missing something obvious, or were you just referring to the chronology you mention here?

So far, this has been one of the more interesting of the 7 titles, although it has had a few down-turns, but whatever that connection ends up being will probably determine my attitude towards this title more than any other single factor.

I almost got the feeling that Shilo's line "Metron, where are you? Metron!" when he was being beaten and tortured, followed a couple pages later by the big bill-board sign, "For Three Nights Only! The World's Greatest Escape Artist" was all meant as a sly reference to Christ's crucifixion ("My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?") and resurrection (three days ...).

The artwork was much better than in #2, although I don't like the artist's tendancy to give all the male characters those body-builder physiques. I wish artists would realise that this doesn't look heroic or in any way functional. I also don't like the evil grins he gives to all the bad guys; just not working for me at all, whatever it's supposed to convey.

Dark Side continues to be a weak point in the series IMO. He looks more like the Kingpin than the victor in a vast, cosmic War of the Gods. I know, I know, you could argue that that's the point (that there's no difference between the mind-set of a tyrannical god of power and a mob boss), but I don't think that's good enough an explanation. And I still find it puzzling that Dark Side, having won the war, is as earth-bound and humanized as his defeated adversaries. Also, Dark Side's characterisation doesn't feel right to me. The petty vindictiveness, the gloating, the satisfied, evil grin all seem more typical of the mis-characterizations we see in Superman or JLA than of Kirby's character.

The answer to all this - if it isn't just a matter of Morrison having a different view of the characters than my own (impossible!) - might be tied in with the Sheeda, and as I said, the nature of that tie will be crucial for the success of this MM series with me.

By the way, the ideas that came up in Frankenstein #2 regarding the archtypes of the tyranical Father and devouring Mother started me thinking about the concept of the Mother in some of Kirby's New Gods work. It's interesting that those characters who otherwise would have been the major mother-figures in both New Genesis and Apokolips were all killed or neutralised - Highfather's wife Avia (killed in the war), Orion's mother Tigra (imprisoned by Darkseid), and Darkseid's mother and predecessor as ruler of Apokolips, Heggra (poisoned by Darkseid). At the same time, all the positive feminine-qualities (nurture, protection, emotional support, etc) are embodied in the very strange concept of the Mother-Box, which from this POV might perhaps be described as an externalisation of the individual's anima, characteristically (for Kirby's New Gods) manifested as a technological artefact.

Symbolically, the "collective anima" of New Genesis (if we can speak of such a thing; we could just say Highfather's) is destroyed by the war - i.e. severely repressed by the mind-set that going to war can engender. But Izaya becomes Highfather when he rejects war and tries to find another path, negotiating a truce with his enemies. Then the anima is re-incarnated in the Mother-Box, and New Genesis is as described by SHilo in MM#1: "It was this perfect place, way out past the last signpost to anywhere. And just thinking about makes me want to cry ... Everybody was happy and free to grow strong and not be scared ..."

But Mother-Boxes are outlawed (denial/repression of the anima) on "Apokolips - forever orbiting in shadow - its surface marked by mammoth fire pits which illuminate its stark and functional temples - in which creatures of fury worship a creed of destruction." (This quote from Kirby's New Gods #2). Apokolips is the embodiment to the nth degree of every soul-destroying concept of power and fury and destruction that reduces people to mere functionality; authority, militarism and the industrial revolution gone mad.

The only other prominent female characters who come to mind besides Beautiful Dreamer (a romantic, rather than mother-object) are Granny Goodness - like Heggra, another archetypal "bad mother", but this time subordinated to Darkseid instead of ruling over him; and Barda, who exhibits strong maternal instincts towards the doomed Auralie, as well as towards Scott Free and - you guessed it - young Shilo Norman. In MM#1 or #2, Shilo evasively answers, in response to a question from Dr DeZard, that Mother-Boxxx is just "a toy ... somebody made for me." I wonder if that someone was his real-life surrogate-mother Barda. In any case, it is at least interesting that neither Scott Free nor Barda are among the New Gods we've seen thus far in the series.

[Guts/Batman]

Judeeeeee...

Shiloh just got the crap beat out of him. That was insane. Almost all of this issue belongs on the "PWNED!" thread in Rumbles.

I am definitely enjoying the wierdness of Mister Miracle.

I think I have most of the people down, Shiloh's psychiatrist is Desaad, right?

[berk]

I think I have most of the people down, Shiloh's psychiatrist is Desaad, right? Yes. And I just noticed, as I was looking for something else back in th old posts, that Paul McEnery quietly predicted this when several of us were guessing he was Doctor Bedlam (including a coulple meandering and self-indulgent posts from myself).

But what I find more interesting is this:Thematics.
What does the spider mean?

1) The predatory terror of chaos. And don't tell me that's not the way people think of spiders.

2) 8 legs = the 8 points of Chaos = the 8-fold path.

3) Networks. The web that connects us all. As in what Ali-Ka-Zoom says about the thread.

4) Moulting: the exchange of an old identity for a new one by sloughing an old exoskeleton.

5) The auto-patterning of reality.

6) The entity that makes it's own auto-patterning of reality, and can step away from it.

7) Reality = trap. Point #7 is quite thought-provoking in light of the last scene of MM#3, isn't it?

[Paul McEnery]

I almost got the feeling that Shilo's line "Metron, where are you? Metron!" when he was being beaten and tortured, followed a couple pages later by the big bill-board sign, "For Three Nights Only! The World's Greatest Escape Artist" was all meant as a sly reference to Christ's crucifixion ("My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?") and resurrection (three days ...).
Not just Jesus, but Job also.

[Paul McEnery]

Yes. And I just noticed, as I was looking for something else back in th old posts, that Paul McEnery quietly predicted this when several of us were guessing he was Doctor Bedlam (including a coulple meandering and self-indulgent posts from myself).

But what I find more interesting is this: Point #7 is quite thought-provoking in light of the last scene of MM#3, isn't it?
Boy, I are smart. Mmm yes. :D

[multiplexo]

In #3, it still seems like it's Highfather's crew who want MM as their champion against Dark Side but, as far as I can see, the deal is that Shilo's being trained up to fight the Sheeda on all the New Gods's behalf.

I was wondering what the connection was to the rest of 7S. I spotted the scene with the Guardian and after someone pointed it out the scene with the pumpkin cab, but I was still trying to figure out where MM came in. BTW, that beating was brutal, and it looks as if the thugs castrated him at the end of it. Nasty.

[berk]

Boy, I are smart. Mmm yes. :D Well, somebody has to be the smart one, and I'm too ... too ... er - busy. Yeah, that's it. I'm very busy.

Actually, now I think of it, "4) Moulting: the exchange of an old identity for a new one by sloughing an old exoskeleton" is a propos to MM#3 as well since it looks like Shilo's ordeal is part of a process of re-birth (or initiation, take your pick).

[Wesley Dodds]

BTW, that beating was brutal, and it looks as if the thugs castrated him at the end of it. Nasty.

I think the Omega Sanction is actually worse than the Omega Effect. If Darkseid went around cutting off dicks, superheroes would have more reason to fear him.

[Steve Brady]

So, is he gonna come back as Shilo, or Scott Free?

[Wesley Dodds]

Some thoughts on Mister Miracle:

There are some similarities between the conflict between New Genesis and Dark Side and the battle between The Invisibles and the Archons. Both sides are trying to achieve the same goal: to heal the gap between self-image an reality. Dark Side tries to do this by abolishing the gap; destroy everyone's self-worth and substitute his will for theirs. One goal in life: to die for Darkseid. In place of life, anti-life. (Also, the Dark Side uses force to "free" people, the New Gods don't.)

The way of the New Gods is different. They also want to repair the fracture, but by unifying the self with reality to transcend both. It's a world of hope and life and love and strength -- a perfect, Manichean alternative to the nothingness of eternal slavery to Dark Side. So, the New Gods have a life equation that's a perfect answer to anti-life.

It's about growth -- limitation helps you develop an ego, but like an egg at a certain point it begins to restrict your growth -- you have to break out of reality or be crushed by it. "Prisoners, deformed by the smallness of their cages."

But the New Gods, badly beaten, are in hiding -- they won't even help Shiloh for fear of Darkseid. They don't even want to be reminded of what they really are. And what they are is what everyone is: beneath the despair and failure and guilt, everything is sacred. The truth isn't a concentration camp, it's a universal party (as it's described in The Invisibles). The New Gods are the world, and if Darkseid has beaten them, we live in a world where evil reigns and the anti-life equation is the jingle to every commercial.

(Darkseid was right -- earth did produce the anti-life equation, after all.)

One goal: to die for the meaningless, glittering things in life. Shiloh has those: money, fame, accomplishment. But he still feels empty. He knows there should be more. And after being consumed by the void of existential nothingness and returning, he has his answer: not only is there meaning, there's perfect meaning. It's not just that our lives have a point: we're mythology.

Of course, Dezard grinds down his trust in himself. He has to: anti-life is horrible that nobody will accept it unless they're first convinced they have nothing else. Miss Rimbaud was probably a great painter (that's what I got from her name) -- that's why Dezard had to knock her down to destroy her. With all hope destroyed, she can become an empty plastic person living a life with no meaning but slavery to Darkseid.

And it's because he did the same to Shiloh, wearing away at him, preventing him from accepting the simple answer to everything, that Shiloh was such a failure. He'd just survived the drive-by derby, and his response was to ring ZZ and tell him it was a flashback. Slowly, he woke up to who he was and what he had to do, even telling the newspapers about his experience. But still he wouldn't fully accept it, and because of that Dezard was able to simply take his motherboxxx away from him. Metron warned him he had to let go of his fear of what he was or be crushed; he didn't listen, and he paid for it badly. At the end, he even tried to bribe his way out of trouble -- as Dark Side said, his money and celebrity and costume weren't enough.

Now the hero who failed has another chance -- is he prepared to gamble that there is something more? Is he prepared to bet a Hellish, pointless, meaningless life -- not much different from Darkseid's anti-life -- on the possibility of something more? Will he be like Miss Rimbaud and choose anti-life, or will he finally accept his destiny -- all the harder because now he has nothing else but his life -- and free the bright ones? It's his last chance -- and it's the last chance for all of us.

But I'm not sure Shiloh is being groomed to fight Dark Side -- re-read Metron's comments in issue 1. They had to talk outside of existence where "he" couldn't see them -- perhaps not Dark Side, but someone like the Terrible Time Tailor? Perhaps Dark Side is just the unwitting crucible being used to help Shiloh embrace his real self, to force him to accept his destiny and fight the force that's really responsible for the fall of the New Gods.

[Wesley Dodds]

And: notice how in Frankenstein 1 the Sheeda force people to live "anti-life" by first destroying their sense of self-worth? The Sheeda Queen, like Darkseid, wants the entire universe to sing her name and be her slave: no meaning but to die for Gloriana.

But The Source loves us, and doesn't want us to live like that, so in time rallies Soldiers to save us...

[A.Warlock]

From Frankenstein 2:

So Solomon Grundy has waters from the Cauldron of Rebirth (or whatever it's called) flowing through his veins? They should make a series starring all the grundy-men. Page-to-page unliving, undying ass-kicking.

[4DGlasses]

If only my public schooling captured my attention the way this thread has...

There's been so much insightful commentary brought to my attention since the release of Mister Miracle #3. These points being the most interesting:

And: notice how in Frankenstein 1 the Sheeda force people to live "anti-life" by first destroying their sense of self-worth? The Sheeda Queen, like Darkseid, wants the entire universe to sing her name and be her slave: no meaning but to die for Gloriana...

...(Darkseid was right -- earth did produce the anti-life equation, after all.)

One goal: to die for the meaningless, glittering things in life. Shiloh has those: money, fame, accomplishment. But he still feels empty. He knows there should be more. And after being consumed by the void of existential nothingness and returning, he has his answer: not only is there meaning, there's perfect meaning. It's not just that our lives have a point: we're mythology...

...I think the Omega Sanction is actually worse than the Omega Effect. If Darkseid went around cutting off dicks, superheroes would have more reason to fear him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by berk
I almost got the feeling that Shilo's line "Metron, where are you? Metron!" when he was being beaten and tortured, followed a couple pages later by the big bill-board sign, "For Three Nights Only! The World's Greatest Escape Artist" was all meant as a sly reference to Christ's crucifixion ("My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?") and resurrection (three days ...).

Not just Jesus, but Job also.

The cover of Mister Miracle #1 seems to be more in the vein of Christ/Hanged Man after seeing #3.

This tragic theme resounds in Shining Knight with Justin(e)'s inability to express true love, Klarion's persecution in his mini (#4), Zatanna's insecurities and guilt about summoning Gwydion, Guardian's loss of Carla's father Larry Marcus costing a long term relationship, Alix Harrower's husband Lance dying in the name of vanity, and Frankenstein's ties to Melmoth add a lot of depth to this microcosm.

[MilkManX]

RE:MM#3


So that was awesome.


Bedlam is back. Darkseid is definatley on earth and it looks like Orion and Lightray showed up at the end.

Cant wait to see #4

[goldenarms]

Damn another great read. I couldn't believe what the Omega Sanction did to Shiloh. The scene of him reaching for the adult diaphers was too much. It really is amazing who you have reread these books over and over to pick up on all the subtlties and nuance.

Stupid question could Darkseid be one of the 7 mystery men? Or have their id's already been revealed. The reason I ask is because in a way he is helping to make Shiloh a true hero.

[Wesley Dodds]

It's Tolkein's Silmarillion -- by fighting evil, good becomes stronger and more vibrant.

So, Metron gets together with the Black Racer to "test to destruction" Mister Miracle.

Why? Because if Mister Miracle wants to survive, he has to get with the program -- fast. The chess game was preparation for his confrontation with Dark Side; but I suspect the confrontation with Dark Side is just preparation for something else.

But Mister Miracle is unwilling to accept what's been happening to him. He refuses the call to adventure, and is punished for it. ZZ was dating Lashina, had obviously told Baron Bedlam what act Shiloh was planning, and was carrying around a sinister drug called flat. But Shiloh didn't act, because he didn't want to accept what he'd been called to do -- he just made tenative steps towards his destiny, like telling the newspapers about his religious experience.

It wasn't enough, and he lost badly because of it.

[Wesley Dodds]

Mister Miracle is Jonah: The Source has a mission for him but he's running away from it. And nothing good happens when you turn down the call to adventure. Look at Luke Skywalker -- he turned down his responsibility, and his foster parents were blasted by stormtroopers. Sometimes, the hero needs a little narrative kick to get started, to leave apparent security and fight a necessary battle. (He's also Paul, seeing The Truth in a blinding instant.)

Notice how Mister Miracle falls into the black hole after motherboxxx fails to respond? Mother Box is an agent of The Source -- it's The Source that wants Mister Miracle groomed as champion of the New Gods. And The Source is Barbelith -- it loves him, it wants him to grow and be all he can be. (I suspect anti-life in is fact just the sealing away of the connection to The Source -- i.e., the soul)

Dark Side is like any dictator -- he wants his face everywhere. He wants to enslave the universe and force it to praise his glory. He seeks motherboxxx as a connection to The Source, which to him is another country to conquer -- New Genesis was just the first step. Notice Dezard wasn't just torturing the motherboxxx but apparently mapping its schematics?

The Zen puzzle -- first there is a mountain, then there isn't, then there is. Existence is the fundamental puzzle, the ultimate question. Why is it that things exist? How is it possible that things exist? If things exist, there must be something outside of existence -- but what? Mister Miracle has to escape the life trap -- he has to escape the world of limits that enables the birth of self-awareness but also cramps it. Fortunately, it's Shiloh's nature to "defy restriction" -- if there are limits, he'll break through them. And if he can do it, perhaps the New Gods will forget their fear and follow him?

Why did Metron choose Shiloh long ago before the fall of the New Gods? Because Shiloh is freedom's spirit -- and Metron values that quality. "The truth shall set you free." Although one of the New Gods Metron is a nomad, a wanderer -- and therefore has faith in the value of freedom.

The line about the New Gods accepting the reality of change is key -- these are eternal beings, but in the endless battle between good and evil evil will sometimes get the upper hand. They can't stop that, but they can put a check on how long it will reign -- which is why Shiloh was chosen long ago, as their contingency plan for when the inevitable happened.

It's also interesting that Metron of all the New Gods is the most on the ball about fighting Dark Side -- or, as I suspect, the secret, yet-unrevealed agent of their fall. But who would want the New Gods out of the way, and why? The Sheeda seem similar to Dark Side -- they both need despair to prevail. Is it just the ambition of a power-mad monarch who wants all reality to love and fear her, or are the Sheeda something more cosmic than that? Metron sees the big picture -- he knows the New Gods have bigger problems than Dark Side.

[CaptainAwesome]

So, is he gonna come back as Shilo, or Scott Free?
Shilo Norman has been a part of thenew gods saga for a while. Look Back on the fourth world series from the ninteys. Scott Free is a different character, so I dont think he will come back as scott.

[Be Stiff]

Man, I hope he gets his dick back.

This is a total Byrne move. I fail to see how a Kirby superhero can be enhanced by this kind of shit. I don't like it when Byrne fucks up stuff for pointless reboots, so I gotta be consistent.

He's Mister Miracle, not Mistersippi Burning.

[4DGlasses]

Shilo Norman has been a part of the new gods saga for a while. Look Back on the fourth world series from the ninteys. Scott Free is a different character, so I dont think he will come back as scott.

We know that Scott Free and Big Barda were last seen at the disbandment of the League.

We know that Superman is about to free Darkseid (Dark Side) from the Source Wall, where he's been imprisoned since the return of Supergirl.

We know a Parademon in Villains United had about a half dozen Mother Boxes.

I think that Infinite Crisis might provide some answers as to what exactly transpired in the Fourth World before 7S: Mister Miracle.

Notice Dezard wasn't just torturing the motherboxxx but apparently mapping its schematics?

The map tatooed on the back of a Subway Pirate called Soapy in Guardian, Klarion makes note of a map before merging with his familiar, now Dezard attempts to reverse-engineer Motherboxxx. I can't help but think this has everything to do with the Croatoan AI.

Man, I hope he gets his dick back...

He's Mister Miracle, not Mistersippi Burning.

If he DOES manage to escape castration, it'd be nothing short of miraculous.

[AlistairCrane]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but did anyone notice the man putting a diamond ring down the sewer when Mr. Miracle was walking around disoriented by the anti-life equation? What is the significance of this?

[Bat-Mite]

It might be related to an upcoming Bulleteer issue, since her ring is kind of important in the story. I don't remember any ring dropping in any prior issue of Seven Soldiers.

[4DGlasses]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but did anyone notice the man putting a diamond ring down the sewer when Mr. Miracle was walking around disoriented by the anti-life equation? What is the significance of this?

This scene took place during a flashback in Guardian #3, when Jake Jordan and his girlfriend Carla Marcus broke-up. He's picking it up, actually.

[Bat-Mite]

D'OH! Me and my lousy memory.

[Gingold]

Loved this issue- just one nitpick- wasn't Mr. Miracle's rival Doctor Bedlam, and Baron Bedlam was someone else's bad guy- Outsiders, maybe? Am I remembering wrong? Is Morrison combining the two bad guys? Was there a previously established connection?

I just noticed the "New Goods" sign behind Orion and Lightray at the grocery store. I love this series. :)

[Expletive Deleted]

Loved this issue- just one nitpick- wasn't Mr. Miracle's rival Doctor Bedlam, and Baron Bedlam was someone else's bad guy- Outsiders, maybe? Am I remembering wrong? Is Morrison combining the two bad guys? Was there a previously established connection?Baron Bedlam was the dictator of Markovia in OUTSIDERS, yeah.

I'm guessing Morrison just likes the name.

[Bat-Mite]

I am starting to think Morrison might benefit from some editorial meddling. Not to mess with the story, of course, but to fix some spelling problems here and there and fix some wrong names like Bedlam's here. Or the wrong date on the wrong panel in Frankestein.

[jerrymcl89]

I don't think that would be considered editorial meddling - just editing. Although Morrison may have consciously chosen the wrong name for Bedlam, (since it makes him sound like more of a Mr Miracle knockoff) which is fine, if so.

[Paul McEnery]

Or the wrong date on the wrong panel in Frankestein.
That's not called meddling. That's called doing your job.

Meddling is firing the artist after the first issue, and then hiring someone sucky who can't deliver on time.

[AlistairCrane]

This scene took place during a flashback in Guardian #3, when Jake Jordan and his girlfriend Carla Marcus broke-up. He's picking it up, actually.


Oh yeah! I went back and looked at those issues of Klarion and Guardian to see how they connect.

[berk]

If Morrison is actually going to try to fit this in with all the bullshit that's been done with the New Gods in the rest of the DCU it'll ruin the series for me.

[Paul McEnery]

If Morrison is actually going to try to fit this in with all the bullshit that's been done with the New Gods in the rest of the DCU it'll ruin the series for me.
I'm sure there's been the appropriate due diligence to avoid continuity clashes.

Since Grant is the God of New Development at DC, and is writing 52 and all.

[CaptainAwesome]

I heard all Seven Soldiers stuff is taking place OYL. So yeah, its gonna fit it with regular continuity DCU.

[berk]

I'm sure there's been the appropriate due diligence to avoid continuity clashes.

Since Grant is the God of New Development at DC, and is writing 52 and all.
Today 06:46 PM
I heard all Seven Soldiers stuff is taking place OYL. So yeah, its gonna fit it with regular continuity DCU.That really is too bad. Looking at 4DGlasses' list of recent New Gods developments in the DCU, none of them impress me as being particularly interesting ideas, and some of them look like exactly the worst kind of treatment for these characters - the kind that's become pretty much routine in the DCU.

Ah well, It's my own fault. I should have seen this coming.

[Shellhead]

So far, Mr. Miracle has consistently been my least favorite of the Seven Soldiers minis. I disliked the art in issue #1, and I really didn't enjoy the nihilistic ending to issue #3. While it's realistic for somebody to beaten to a pulp by three thugs with baseball bats, and realistic for them to torture and maim that victim while he's down, I'm really not looking for that kind of extreme violence in a comic book.

Beyond that, this mini seems only slightly connected to the rest of the series, at least on a plot level. Thematically, I see the parallels, but given the interesting plot threads tying the other six minis together, Mr. Miracle feels almost out of continuity with the rest. Come to think of it, the other six Soldiers are all either heroes, or in the process of becoming heroes. Shilo Norman was just a highly paid entertainer, and nothing like a hero except for the costume. At this point, I hope he's the one who dies at the end of this series.

[Wesley Dodds]

That's the point -- Shiloh is the reluctant hero who refuses the call and is punished for it. He's Jonah in the whale right now. And like Jonah, he's seeing the error of his ways and will now embrace his mission.

Remember, Guardian apparently had no ties to the Sheeda before the final issue, but the final issue tied the entire series into the overall story in a very satisfying way. My prediction is that Shiloh is not being groomed to fight Dark Side but to fight the cosmic aspect of the Sheeda menace.

[CaptainAwesome]

At this point, I hope he's the one who dies at the end of this series.

I doubt he will be. He's one of the soldiers that has something to live for. The fight against Darkseid is eternal, so he will always have to fight it. I say Justin(e) will go. No reason for her to live once Gloriana is defeated.

Also Ive been thinking about this for a while: we assume that the seven people with minis are the seven soldiers right? But what if one of them isnt a soldier. Like what if its a supporting character in one of the books? Specifically, what if Zatanna isnt one and Misty is? JUst throwing it out there as a possible twist.

[Michael Painter]

Captain Awesome, I was thinking the same thing. In the past, the Seven Soldiers have always had a secret eight member.
For Instance:
Golden Age Team: Wing
Seven Unknown Men: Zor
Newsboy Legion: El Mar
All thsese guys seem to be unofficial members of their teams.
So, it makes me believe that a secret eighth soldier could in fact be the following people:
Zatanna: Misty
Guardian: Baby Brain or Guardian Girl
or somebody else.

[Shellhead]

Captain Awesome, I was thinking the same thing. In the past, the Seven Soldiers h