SEVEN SOLDIERS: Speculation & Spoilers

[CaptMagellan]

Sinus headache getting you down? Try over the counter Klarion. ;)

[K'Nort]

Sinus headache getting you down? Try over the counter Klarion. ;)

Oh you suck.

[CaptMagellan]

Oh you suck.

Yes. Yes I do. :D

[CaptMagellan]

AHHH... I got my Klarion and I feel better now. ;)

I really like Morrison's 'supercompressed' style - the first scene sums up what's happened since the end of #3 and brings the audience up to speed without insulting our intelligence. This is much more to my liking than the decompressed style of other writers who would have wasted a whole issue on Klarion's return, his attempt at convincing friends and family, and subsequent capture.

Melmoth's comment about spider-sex was effectively creepy.

And now I want a Klarion/Teekl Horrigal action figure to go along with the Teekl one of my fantasies.

[K'Nort]

I'm naming my next cat Teekl. Seriously.


Your "fantasy" version is the slinky chick form, isn't it?

[CaptMagellan]

I'm naming my next cat Teekl. Seriously.


Your "fantasy" version is the slinky chick form, isn't it?
GET OUT OF MY HEAD! ;)

I was referencing my earlier post about demanding a Teekl action figure from Didio (he has sooo much to answer for :evilangry: ).

But now that you mention it.... ;)

[berk]

Another thing I forgot to mention earlier - if Misty was a Sheeda-princess, how come she doesn't have the pale or blueish skin we see in the Queen, Melmoth and the half-breed Croatoans?

[Shellhead]

Another thing I forgot to mention earlier - if Misty was a Sheeda-princess, how come she doesn't have the pale or blueish skin we see in the Queen, Melmoth and the half-breed Croatoans?

Her mom demonstrated some shapeshifting ability in Shining Knight #3, so I assume that it's a genetic thing that Misty would have as well.

[K'Nort]

Another thing I forgot to mention earlier - if Misty was a Sheeda-princess, how come she doesn't have the pale or blueish skin we see in the Queen, Melmoth and the half-breed Croatoans?

Isn't she just a Sheeda-princess by marriage though?

[CaptMagellan]

Isn't she just a Sheeda-princess by marriage though?

Yeah. I can't remember all that was in Zat #3 but I'm expecting to see a twist on the fairy tale 'evil stepmother' thing. Even if Melmoth is her biological father (which I can't remember if it is the case or not) maybe Misty takes after her real mother.

That's if the Sheeda Queen is a 'step'-mother.

[Bat-Mite]

Ì believe Misty referred to Gloriana Tenebrae as her STEP-mother.

[berk]

Maybe Melmoth and Gloriana were both usurpers in different ways and the true royal family all look like Misty; who knows. It might have something to do with the real origins of the Sheeda, which we're supposed to find out next month, IIRC.

Melmoth's appearance after losing his physical form (is that what happened?) reminded me of a little of the false Gwydion's; I don't think they're actually connected, but it might have been a little visual echo of the earlier Zatanna antagonist (who ended u[ being a bit of a letdown, I thought).

[Wesley Dodds]

OK! If I'm lucky, maybe my comicshop has it now.

*runs off to see*

Sigh. Ferry off Mister Miracle, no Zatanna 4... black, black times.

[Wesley Dodds]

I'm going to predict that was a map to faerieland and Klarion's on his way there.

[Wesley Dodds]

And wasn't it interesting that the most vocal and bullying enemy of the Sheeda, Submissionary Judah, wasn't just in their employ but their creation? It reminded me of Senator Iselin from the original Manchurian Candidate, a McCarthy-esque anti-Communist who's unknowingly a Communist pawn.

[Groovie Mann]

Seven Soldiers Annotations (http://www.sevensoldiers.cjb.net) (It's geocities so prepare for it not to work a lot)

Thats a site me and a friend are doing and I'll be honest i've lurked here and gatehred a lot of referencing material. I have a bunch of you all, under your CBR handles, listed under the contributions but it would be much better if you PM me or email the site designer(his email addys on the site) your real names to credit properly. Heres who I(know I) borrowed/stole from.

Berk
Wesley Dodds
patience
Paul McEnery
Micheal Painter
Lex
CaptMagellan
ultramandingo
expletive deleted
Gingold
Indigo Al


I should've asked first but I originally was just gatheirng stuff for another board to have our own 7S thread going but it just kind've grew. Sorry, but check the site out, if its working, really ncie looking.

[Wesley Dodds]

Well, as Sheeda-speak appears in Seven Soldiers (oh please let there be more!) I'm gonna keep on transliterating it with my trusty Ogham key.

[4DGlasses]

Seven Soldiers Annotations (http://www.sevensoldiers.cjb.net) (It's geocities so prepare for it not to work a lot)

Thats a site me and a friend are doing and I'll be honest i've lurked here and gatehred a lot of referencing material. I have a bunch of you all, under your CBR handles, listed under the contributions but it would be much better if you PM me or email the site designer(his email addys on the site) your real names to credit properly. Heres who I(know I) borrowed/stole from.

Berk
Wesley Dodds
patience
Paul McEnery
Micheal Painter
Lex
CaptMagellan
ultramandingo
expletive deleted
Gingold
Indigo Al


I should've asked first but I originally was just gathering stuff for another board to have our own 7S thread going but it just kind've grew. Sorry, but check the site out, if its working, really nice looking.

www.geocities.com/four_d_glasses

Yo, yo. Listen up!

My main man, Groovie Mann, and I have been putting together a Seven Soldiers fansite for the past month or so. He's busted his ass trying to gather all the literary references together to make a fan site that can be accessable to most ANY comic reader, from n00b to seasoned fanboys.

Most importantly, if you come across info that we ripped from you, we want to give you credit on our contributions page.

Corrections, criticism, a good cursing out? PM or e-mail.

This site couldn't exist without your brilliant contributions.

Keep up the obsessive overanalysis!

BTW - Manhattan Guardian had Brutus, a clay golem and member of Baby Brain's Golems Four. I suspect Strato is the air golem and MAYBE Gwydion as the fire golem (Brutus being the earth golem). Has there been a water being that we could say is the final member of the golems four?

[Michael Painter]

It's very possible that a water golem will show in the last three titles. But you know I don't specifically think that this was said. You know I finally understand why Solomon Grundy aka Cyrus Gold must have a part in this saga. His poem is set over a 7 day period. Another 7 found.
Oh, and a Bulleteer preview is up over on another website. Paquette really intrigues me with his art, and it looks not too good for Alix's husband, or should I say the deceased new Bulletman? Well looks like this is why she has the Bulleteer name. Not very gender specific, but I can understand why Morrison keeps calling this his Bendis book. I already love Alix and her shininess.

[Wesley Dodds]

Michael! Gives us the link precious!!!!

I too have seen something super-cool:

http://newsarama.com/forums/printthread.php?threadid=37134

See how the last panel is different from the published version? Ah-ha!

[Michael Painter]

Wesley, here's the link: www.comicscontinuum.com
Enjoy!

[4DGlasses]

You know I finally understand why Solomon Grundy aka Cyrus Gold must have a part in this saga. His poem is set over a 7 day period. Another 7 found.
Oh, and a Bulleteer preview is up over on another website. Paquette really intrigues me with his art, and it looks not too good for Alix's husband, or should I say the deceased new Bulletman? Well looks like this is why she has the Bulleteer name. Not very gender specific, but I can understand why Morrison keeps calling this his Bendis book. I already love Alix and her shininess.

Thanx for the link. Art's great. Rumor has it Bulleteer has the strongest ties to the plot of 7 Soldiers #0.

[Jack Tango]

Okay, I haven't read the whole thread, sorry, but I have a question or two. No, most definitely two. Ignore the potentiality of a single question.

Sorry if they've been asked before.

In the latest issue of JSA, Dr. Fate appears to be attacked by Spider-like-creatures...

In Green Lantern: Recharge #2, spider-like-creatures are capturing Green Lanterns...

Seven Soldiers #1 comes out around the same time as Infinite Crisis #7...

Seven Soldiers' origins start as far back as JLA #12, more recently in JLA: Classified #1...

Infinite Crisis has thematic ties to his Hypertime ideas...

Grant Morrison has yet to write or do anything in the DCU leading up to Infinite Crisis...

Morrison is supposed to be a big factor in the Post-Crisis DCU...

Coinkydinks? Seven random coinkydinks?

Yeah, yeah, I'm reaching, but I was intrigued, what can I say?

[Lex]

It's not uncommon to see spider-like villains. Though it's a fun coincidence that we're seeing several pop up around the same time. I really don't think Seven Soldiers relates to what's going on in JSA and GLC, but it's fun to speculate.

[Paul McEnery]

Thematics.

What does the spider mean?

1) The predatory terror of chaos. And don't tell me that's not the way people think of spiders.

2) 8 legs = the 8 points of Chaos = the 8-fold path.

3) Networks. The web that connects us all. As in what Ali-Ka-Zoom says about the thread.

4) Moulting: the exchange of an old identity for a new one by sloughing an old exoskeleton.

5) The auto-patterning of reality.

6) The entity that makes it's own auto-patterning of reality, and can step away from it.

7) Reality = trap.

Who's got more to add to this?

[CaptMagellan]

Thematics.

What does the spider mean?
Betrayal by a loved one.
The scary, dark side of feminine power (although, if I'm remembering right, a lot of the spider references in the series so far have been male).
The weaving of fate (i.e., the spider being more in control of your 'free will' and 'destiny' than you are).

[Jack Tango]

My friend and I like to pretend that somewhere toward the end of Infinite Crisis the Sheeda attack...

Ah, the great harrowing...

[A.Warlock]

If Seven Soldiers were mentioned at all in Infinite Crisis, the sales for the SSoV mini's would see an extraordinary spike. And then us true fans would be the only ones with full collections. Ah, the hardships of reading good comic books.

[Wesley Dodds]

If we're lucky maybe we'll see a Sheeda cameo in IC -- but, with IC going on, it explains why none of the other heroes are free to fight the Sheeda! :p

Mister Miracle 4th wall elements -- I want them back in when the trade comes out. Taking them out was a mistake.

[hondobrode]

Most SSoV readers are saying no but I'm disagreeing, saying that yes, tho you may not like it, SSoV will be connected to IC.

I don't see how that's a bad thing. I think it will only give a boost to the SSoV series of books while still retaining their flavor.

[4DGlasses]

Thematics.

What does the spider mean?

1) The predatory terror of chaos. And don't tell me that's not the way people think of spiders.

2) 8 legs = the 8 points of Chaos = the 8-fold path.

3) Networks. The web that connects us all. As in what Ali-Ka-Zoom says about the thread.

4) Moulting: the exchange of an old identity for a new one by sloughing an old exoskeleton.

5) The auto-patterning of reality.

6) The entity that makes it's own auto-patterning of reality, and can step away from it.

7) Reality = trap.

Who's got more to add to this?

Misty spun Gloriana a dress from the butt of a spider in a flashback. Zatanna #3 IIRC.

[berk]

I did a little reading about spider-symbolism and came across a few interesting points:

As Captmagellan pointed out, the spider's thread has been associated with the thread woven by the fates and the spider itself with the feminine power of the moon. I don't immediately see any connection between these aspects and Seven Soldiers, though.

As Paul touched on the spider's web-weaving has suggested in many traditions a parallel with reality-construction and world-creation. In many cultures the spider is the world-creator or is closely involved in the act of creation. For example, in West Africa, Anansi the Spider created the celestial bodies and the matter from which humans were made, but the Sky-God had to breathe life into the inert matter (I don't read Gaiman, so no idea if this has anything to do with the title of his novel).

However, the frail, tenuous nature of the spider-web sometimes associates it with a lesser order of reality as opposed to a posited stronger, "more real" reality. So the spider is sometimes seen as a symbol of the demiurge - the creator of a fallen world which is an inferior copy of the true or divine reality; or, to switch to Buddhist terminology, as the spinner of illusion, Maya; or as a symbol of existence (everyday or apparent reality) as opposed to Being (the substratum that underlies apparent reality).

The spider's thread has also functioned as a symbol of the strand that connects mortal to divine existence, the umbilical cord connecting the created to its creator.

The spider has also been seen as a symbol of the soul, as the conductor of souls to the underworld, and as the God of the Underworld himself.

The spider has also been seen as an intermediary between mortals and the divine, probably because he seems to partake of both orders, as seen in the aspects mentioned above. And as such, he can represent a initiation into a
higher stage of development.

The spider sitting in the middle of his self-constructed web can be a symbol of the development of individual creative power through meditation and self-exploration.

However, this same image can take on a negative aspect and represent excessive introspection and narcissism.

One idea I expected to find but didn't see mentioned explicitly is the web-weaver as a symbol of artistic, and especially literary, creation - the writer as the builder of his own fictional reality. But we could say that this is implied in the concept of the spider as a symbol of introspective creative power and as a reality-builder, and in Paul's 5th and 6th points.

Thoughts anyone? I think we might be able to see a connection with the Time Tailor as the creator of a new reality. Perhaps the Sheeda technology might suggest itself as well - e.g. Melmoth's construction of the Sub-Missionaries. Can we see these as attempts to usurp the role of the Creator - attempts that lead to the construction of faulty, mal-functioning realities and flawed beings? (Cf. Paul's points 5 , 6, & 7).

Melmoth immediately springs to mind as a conductor of souls and as an Underworld king - for example, in his treatment of the children under his control.

And the web-maker as literary creator of course suggests the metatextual ideas Paul brought up in regard to the Time Tailor in his post on Guardian #4.

Not sure what we can say about the idea of initiation. Melmoth and the Time Tailor certainly initiate their victims(?) into a new state of exisitence, but it doesn't appear to be one we would characterise as a "higher" stage. Future developments might shed new light on this, though.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Does anyone know when the last issue of Zatanna is coming out?

[Paul McEnery]

Does anyone know when the last issue of Zatanna is coming out?
Still scheduled for Nov 23.

[Michael Painter]

Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM
Does anyone know when the last issue of Zatanna is coming out?


Still scheduled for Nov 23.

Not anymore, Paul. Its now coming out a week after Bulleteer. So we get three weeks in a row of Seven Soldiers!

[Lex]

So we get three weeks in a row of Seven Soldiers!Thinking of three weeks of back-to-back comics goodness makes me smile.

[Wesley Dodds]

Well, thank God for that. The wait for Zatanna 4 was getting to me.

[twilight]

RANDOM QUESTION

Which mini interested you the most?

Which mini interested you the least?

[Jared_Humpherys]

Thematics.

What does the spider mean?

1) The predatory terror of chaos. And don't tell me that's not the way people think of spiders.

2) 8 legs = the 8 points of Chaos = the 8-fold path.

3) Networks. The web that connects us all. As in what Ali-Ka-Zoom says about the thread.

4) Moulting: the exchange of an old identity for a new one by sloughing an old exoskeleton.

5) The auto-patterning of reality.

6) The entity that makes it's own auto-patterning of reality, and can step away from it.

7) Reality = trap.

Who's got more to add to this?

I though the 8-fold path was in many ways the opposite of chaos: denying pleasure, getting rid of suffering, and living a life of moderation. I agree with you about the 8 legs to 8 points of a chaosphere idea, though. And since the Sheeda seem to be at least in part magical, perhaps a relation to the color octarine?

Spiders are also seen as the ultimate patient planners and builders, which also reflects the Sheeda mind-controlling and adeptness with technology.

[Wesley Dodds]

Which mini interested you the most?

It's perverse, but the one I'm most interested in is Bulleteer. There's something thrilling about the idea of Morrison writing a Bendis book. He loves superheroes so much that I'm sure if he just plays it straight he'll produce something of quality.

Which mini interested you the least?

Klarion, actually. It was a good book but the first issue in particular was very ordinary.

[4DGlasses]

RANDOM QUESTION

Which mini interested you the most?

Which mini interested you the least?

Most Interesting - Former Leaguer Zatanna. I get a stiffy from fishnet.

Least Interesting - Frankenstein.

Until I learned of his adventures to Mars. Uber-cool outlook for issue 2. :cool:

[Paul McEnery]

I though the 8-fold path was in many ways the opposite of chaos: denying pleasure, getting rid of suffering, and living a life of moderation.

Positive and negative aspects of the same thing.

[Michael Painter]

I think the most interesting minis so far to me are the reimagined properties like Guardian and hopefully Bulleteer as well. I can't wait to see Morrison to a Bendis book either.
The one that still has my disinterest now is Shining Knight, and it is only because Klarion, Guardian, Mr. Miracle, and Zatanna all have offered so many easter eggs in its issue, and the Sir Justin plotline seems to be the most integral to Seven Soldiers #0 so far.

[berk]

1) The predatory terror of chaos. And don't tell me that's not the way people think of spiders. I forgot to mention this earlier - the fitst thing that came to my mind when I read this was Dostoesvsky - remember in Crime and Punishment, that cynical, depraved bastard - can't recall his name now - who asked the question, "What if eternity is just a room filled with spiders?"

Positive and negative aspects of the same thing. This is a profound and counter-intuitive idea that I think a lot of people have trouble with - how can something signify its opposite? At the same time, it's been trivialized in formulations I won't repeat here for fear of distracting people with mundanities. Freud's Interpretation of Dreams contains a good comment on it, can't remember which section.

[edit:] tracked down the passage I was thinking of: We have already become acquainted with the interpretative rule according to which every element in a dream can, for purposes ofinterpretation, stand for its opposite just as easily as for itself. We can never tell beforehand whether it stands for the one or the other; only the context can decide.
[Freud is referring to this earlier passage:]
The way in which dreams treat the category of contraries and contradictories is highly remarkable. ... They show a particular preference for combining contraries into a unity or for representing them as one and the same thing. Dreams feel at liberty, moreover, to represent any element by its wishful contrary; so that there is no way of deciding at a first glance whether any element that admits of a contrary is present in the dream thoughts as a positive or a negative. (1)
1.[Footnote added by Freud in 1911:] I was astoonished to learn from a pamphlet by K.Abel, [i]The Antithetical Meaning of Primal Words (1884), - and the fact has been confirmed by other philologists - that the most ancient languages behave exactly like dreams in this respect. In the first instance they have only a single word to describe the two contraries at the extreme ends of a series of qualities or activities (e.g. 'strong-weak', 'old-young', 'far-near', 'bind-sever'); they only form distinct terms for the two contraries by a secondary process of making small nodifications in the common word. Abel demonstrates this particularly from Ancient Egyptian; but he shows that there are distinct traces of the same course of development in the Semitic and Indo-Germanic languages as well.[VI.C.p429-30] Apologies for belabouring a point that probably doesn't require explanation for some readers - and to Paul, for trying to play Huxley to his Darwin - but this is a concept I find very intriguing. For example, it's interesting to see how Freud came upon it from a completely different direction (psychoanalysis, philology, linguistics) from that in which the same idea was approached in philosophy (including religious thought, e.g. early and Medieval Christian ideas about the relationship between Good and Evil).

[Lex]

Which mini interested you the most?Frankenstein. Before Seven Soldiers #0 came out I was absorbing every ounce of info I could find about this project. One of the things that first caught my eye was Morrison's concept of this Frankenstein series. Not only is the character cool (with body parts from various eras and a steam-powered gun), but it sounded like the most fun (Morrison mentioned that crazy stuff like the gold mines of Mars would be in it). So it was, and still is, the book I'm most interested in.Which mini interested you the least?Before anything had come out yet, I was the least interested in Guardian. It sounded as cool as the others, but I didn't completely know what to make of the concept. But it quickly jumped to my favorite Seven Soldiers mini with two words: Subway Pirates.

[Groovie Mann]

RANDOM QUESTION

Which mini interested you the most?

Which mini interested you the least?

Most: Probably Zatanna because I knew who she was with Mister Miracle coming up close. Since, however, Zatannas mini has become my least favorite thus far.

Least: Bulleteer probably. But now I'm actually looking forward to her book.

[CaptMagellan]

RANDOM QUESTION

Which mini interested you the most?

Which mini interested you the least?

Going just from the solicits
Most interested = Shining Knight
Least interested = Frankenstein

But now, about half way through,
Most interested = Frankenstein (I'm really intrigued by what Morrison's got up his sleeve on this one now)
Least Interested = Mister Miracle (I don't dislike it but it hasn't wowed me yet).

[Indigo Al]

Just read it - good stuff (although you really can't argue that 7S is "innocent stuff" anymore!)

SPOILERS - sorry someday I'll figure the tabs out












I'm willing to bet the pervy site wasn't random (i.e. Sheedah), and that the Dr. that Alix was talking to was more than just a random character - possibly someone linked to the old Bulletman?

I also liked how the superhero-fetishism that was one of the themes of S7 #0 made its way back to this issue as a theme.

[Shellhead]

RANDOM QUESTION

Which mini interested you the most?

Which mini interested you the least?

Before, I was most interested in Klarion and least interested in Guardian.

Right now, I'm most interested in Frankenstein and least interested in Mr. Miracle.

I've enjoyed every single issue so far.

[Abomination]

I was told that Klarion the Witch Boy #4 that shipped last week had a printer error. Does anyone know anything about this?

[mohammedali]

Nothing new about printer errors in DC. Why the concern?

Mohammed Ali

[Groovie Mann]

this seemed the most straight forward of all the seven soldiers thus far. liked it though and the next issue sounds exciting.

[jerrymcl89]

They are all good. But I'd say I've liked Zatanna the best, and Shining Knight the least. Klarion is the most pleasant surprise, though - I had very little interest going into it, and thought it was excellent.

[ultramandingo]

is "bulleteer" morrisons homage to 90s era image books? ifso they need more crosshatching in the inking dept.

[Abomination]

Just curious.

[Paul McEnery]

Just read it - good stuff (although you really can't argue that 7S is "innocent stuff" anymore!)

SPOILERS - sorry someday I'll figure the tabs out


I'm willing to bet the pervy site wasn't random (i.e. Sheedah), and that the Dr. that Alix was talking to was more than just a random character - possibly someone linked to the old Bulletman?

I also liked how the superhero-fetishism that was one of the themes of S7 #0 made its way back to this issue as a theme.

Nine'll get you ten that the skintech winds up as part of the Sheeda backstory.

Especially with the name "Harrower".

And "Alex"= lawless.

And by God I liked the way that we've got the boobs on the front cover, and on the inside: "the eyes are up here", as it were.

[dswynne]

Bulleteer makes POWER GIRL look scrawny! ;)

-de

[Wesley Dodds]

OK, I've read it, and I noticed something awesome.

The panel where Lance has first applied the smartskin? Look above his right hand on his desk -- his wedding ring. Dirty bugger took it off to look at porn.

Then, on panel two of the second to last page and the first panel of the page that begins "there's a whole class of people": Alix has a band of flesh-coloured skin where her wedding ring was!

So, why'd Alix survive and Lance die? Well, you see, it's like Goldfinger...

(Although in real life this is just a myth -- cover your skin and you won't asphyxiate.)

[twilight]

I myself was most interested in Klarion,and now Mister Miracle and least interested in Guardian.

[CaptMagellan]

Especially with the name "Harrower".
And "Alex"= lawless.


Good catch.

I'm hoping I'll find more things to comment on about this issue but my immediate thoughts all revolve around "Lance, you ignorant moron!" and "Alix: hommanahommanahommana"

[Paul McEnery]

Good catch.

I'm hoping I'll find more things to comment on about this issue but my immediate thoughts all revolve around "Lance, you ignorant moron!" and "Alix: hommanahommanahommana"
Well, and "Lance Harrower" -- that's a bit of a suggestive name, too.

[Indigo Al]

Good catch.

I'm hoping I'll find more things to comment on about this issue but my immediate thoughts all revolve around "Lance, you ignorant moron!" and "Alix: hommanahommanahommana"

Honestly - your wife looks like THAT and you need internet porn???? Loser deserved it.

Come to think of it, he would have made a good match with the recently diseased Whip. Both of them are superhero fetishist pervs.

[Deathlok]

If you picked this up, What did you think?

[Chris Thomas]

fantastic. great art, interesting story. much more 'comic-booky' that the other 7 soldiers but clearly interesting. nice 'origin story' with a sad twist. also, fascinating powers

[The Batman]

actually i really enjoyed this too. i thought that it was an interesting twist on the whole super-hero worship thing. really excited to see where this all goes.

oh and great art.

[Paul McEnery]

fantastic. great art, interesting story. much more 'comic-booky' that the other 7 soldiers but clearly interesting. nice 'origin story' with a sad twist. also, fascinating powers
And, as I think of it, interesting approach to, er, revisiting past characters.

Bit of Grant autocrit here. Lance is looking to recreate the Human Bullet experience, but, you know, sexier. And it eats him alive.

[Michael Painter]

I really found this title to be really one of Grant's most hilarious takes for his supposed "Bendis Book". Alix really is an intelligent female, the perfect specimen, but ironically, her husband can't see it. He's too obsessed with comparing her to superhero porn to notice that he has a smokin' wife.
The other thing that's interesting is just how full of sexual innuendo Grant put into the comic. Is this supposed to show how bad comic writers have written the uberbabes of comics? Or is this a showcase to make a farce about the MAX line at Marvel and the old 90's Image "bad girls"?
The other thing I think Grant did was really good was the last page, it felt real good to see Alix accept her new position of superhero.

[berk]

I see alex's metal skin as a comment on the problematics of fictional, comic book images as sexual fantasies. You have this seductively drawn female character, visually nothing but a collection of soft and inviting curves; but that apparently cushion-like form is coated in steel: you can look but you can't touch - which is exactly the case with a comic-book drawing. Lance's tastes in internet porn - women dressed up as superheroines - and his attempt to transform his fantasies into reality - turning his real-life wife into a superheroine - reinforce the point that the male comic-book reader's fetishization of these feminine images is empty and self-defeating, and potentially dangerous if taken too far. Lance's failure to maintain the distinction between fantasy and reality leads to his own death and his wife's paradoxical transformation into an asexual being.

[K'Nort]

Well he recognized that she was hot now but was distracted (obsessed) by the fact that she was inevitably aging. Even looking for crows feet on a 27 year old! Meanwhile, the hot chicks on a website will always be 17.

That was an interesting dress to wear to work with autistic kids. I was wondering what her job was while she was dressing.

[CaptMagellan]

I found the subtle hint of sexual incompatibility between Lance and Alix interesting also. He obviously had a fetish that he felt uncomfortable sharing - one that he knew he wife didn't share.

But he did want her to be a part of it in that he first (as far as we know) brought up the idea of both he and her being a superhero team BEFORE he propositioned the superhero in his email.

I think from his point of view, he had dreams and needs that he wanted his wife to share. He felt that she wouldn't or couldn't share them so he started to look elsewhere.

Yes he was a putz and a loser (and probably more than a bit neurotic) but I like the hint of a greater depth of lack of communication that is the real tragedy in the relationship.

It's a lot more satisfying than a simple 'he bad' 'she good' portrayal.

[Bat-Mite]

Another tragedy that would have been avoided if the girl had put on a Wonder Woman costume like I told her. You hear that, Cindy? IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT! And I want the Green Lantern ring I gave you in our engagement back!

[CaptMagellan]

I wonder if there are any non-comic fan women who would be into putting on a WW costume... or if they would just think it's weird that their partner is into what is perceived as a 'kid's character.'

I don't think my wife would be into it. Unfortunately ;)

[Shellhead]

I wonder if there are any non-comic fan women who would be into putting on a WW costume... or if they would just think it's weird that their partner is into what is perceived as a 'kid's character.'


It happened during the first season of The O.C.

[CaptMagellan]

It happened during the first season of The O.C.
That's what I get for not watching TV.

Was there hot superhero fetish love? Or just a lot of "You want me to dress up as WHAT?"

[K'Nort]

I wonder if there are any non-comic fan women who would be into putting on a WW costume... or if they would just think it's weird that their partner is into what is perceived as a 'kid's character.'

I don't think most women would think of that as a "kid's character." If nothing else, they know what a sex symbol Lynda Carter was.

[CaptMagellan]

I don't think most women would think of that as a "kid's character." If nothing else, they know what a sex symbol Lynda Carter was.
You give me hope ;)

[4DGlasses]

This is probably stoner talk, but do you think Morrison's trying to do a Legion of Super Pets? He had a talking, flying pegasus in SK, Millions the Mystery Mutt in MG, Prowley the cat in Zatanna, Teekl in Klarion, Mickey the Metal Mouse in Bulleteer, uh... Motherboxxx in Mr Miracle...

OK, that one's reaching a bit.

[CaptMagellan]

This is probably stoner talk, but do you think Morrison's trying to do a Legion of Super Pets? He had a talking, flying pegasus in SK, Millions the Mystery Mutt in MG, Prowley the cat in Zatanna, Teekl in Klarion, Mickey the Metal Mouse in Bulleteer, uh... Motherboxxx in Mr Miracle...

OK, that one's reaching a bit.
I don't know but that would be pretty funny... (hey pass that roach this way)
*takes big drag*

Hey man, I wonder if Prowley would ask Teekl to dress up like Zatanna. ;)

[4DGlasses]

I don't know but that would be pretty funny... (hey pass that roach this way)
*takes big drag*

Hey man, I wonder if Prowley would ask Teekl to dress up like Zatanna. ;)

LOL! Zatanna by Grant Morrison and Adam Hughes. Solid Gold, baby!

Wasn't there a Legion of Superpets in DC 1000000 80 page giant? They had a mouse that could split into a million-zillion copies of itself, much like Triplicate Girl in Mark Waid's current Legion.

[Ultraman Max]

I wonder if the website thing was just something Grant figured would exist in a modern world with superheroes in it or if it's that he's familiar with the likes of superheroine central.....



.... I have to say I wish I weren't.


Google and boredom is such a dangerous mix, lol.

[JolietJake]

Maybe this is stretching to find an "easter egg". But perhaps the (subway) train-wreck we see in Alix's superhero debut is some fallout from issue #2 of the Guardian?

Just a thought

[Wesley Dodds]

Interesting idea, but in Guardian 2 were see the trains wrecked in a scrapheap, so probably not.

[4DGlasses]

Maybe this is stretching to find an "easter egg". But perhaps the (subway) train-wreck we see in Alix's superhero debut is some fallout from issue #2 of the Guardian?

Just a thought

I thought that as well.

And the theme of animal sidekicks doesn't adhere to all the Soldiers. Misty's not an animal, unless she turns out to be part Sheeda. Even then, I don't think you could consider them pets.

Not a big Fourth World guy, is a Motherbox a lifeform, or a machine with super-duper enhanced AI? Maybe related to the tech in CROATOAN?

[Sean Walsh]

Not a big Fourth World guy, is a Motherbox a lifeform, or a machine with super-duper enhanced AI?

It's..........kinda both, actually.

[Indigo Al]

Holy crap! I just stumbled onto this!

For the year prior to Taylor's death, Fawley had also been stalking his ex, Erin Crabill, with whom I have spoken at length. Crabill had admittedly modeled for a number of things that some would call porn -- if to you, porn were videos of women in superhero costumes duking it out and nude women tickling one another.

It's from this blog:
http://www.planethuff.com/darkside/

[Shem the Penman]

Holy crap! I just stumbled onto this!

For the year prior to Taylor's death, Fawley had also been stalking his ex, Erin Crabill, with whom I have spoken at length. Crabill had admittedly modeled for a number of things that some would call porn -- if to you, porn were videos of women in superhero costumes duking it out and nude women tickling one another.

It's from this blog:
http://www.planethuff.com/darkside/

For a moment I was wondering what the relevance was to Seven Soldiers, and then the penny dropped. Morrison certainly didn't invent superheroine porn. It's been around for a quite a while (as well as catfight and tickling porn, of course).

In a world where superheroes actually exist, I'd think superheroine porn would be more "mainstream" than it is here. And that's probably enough brain power expended on the matter...

[CaptainAwesome]

Ok sorry to chang ethe subject real quick, but does anyone know if Zatanna #4 came out? Its not on the diamond ship lists, but it says it was gonna end before the last three started.

[Lex]

It was supposed to come out this week, but then the date was pushed back to either the 23rd or the 30th.

[Wesley Dodds]

And I was really, really hoping for it this week, 2 -- but I'd rather had a wait then see another artist take over, as with Mister Miracle.

[CaptainAwesome]

Wait, theres a new artist on Mr. Miracle?

[Bat-Mite]

Yup. The new artists is Billy Dallas Patton.

He has his own webpage http://www.billydallaspatton.com/

[CaptainAwesome]

Hes the guy who does the Heroscape and Advent rising ads? Thats kinda funny.

[Michael Painter]

Well, on another website, until it was pulled, the solicits and covers for Bulleteer and Frankenstein were released. Here are both solicits at least.
Seven Soldiers: Bulleteer #3
Art and cover by Yanick Paquette and Serge La Pointe
Working as a bodyguard at a super-hero convention, Alix Harrower the Bulleteer finds herself enmeshed in the bizarre relationship between Li'l Hollywood, a faded super-impressionist, and her sidekick. As one
tragedy unfolds, a second threatens when Alix finds herself in the
sights of the mysterious, undead super-archer Spyder assassin for hire!
On sale February 1 3 of 4 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US
* SEVEN SOLDIERS: FRANKENSTEIN #3*
Written by Grant Morrison
Art and cover by Doug Mahnke
When a bizarre toxic spill defies the laws of nature and threatens the
whole human race with destruction, it looks like even Frankenstein could
be in over his head, and the Monster must turn to an amazing new ally
for help. Enter The Bride and meet the incredible agents of the Super
Human Advanced Defense Executive!
On sale February 15 3 of 4 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US

Looks like that Bulleteer will meet one of the other living Newsboy Army members, Lil' Hollywood. And this proves that Lil' Hollywood isn't Gimmix, and most likely the 75 year-old woman from Zatanna's therapy group. Also, Spyder is back for another hit!
And introducing the Bride( of Frankenstein) of course.

[IamtheRock3]

I see alex's metal skin as a comment on the problematics of fictional, comic book images as sexual fantasies. You have this seductively drawn female character, visually nothing but a collection of soft and inviting curves; but that apparently cushion-like form is coated in steel: you can look but you can't touch - which is exactly the case with a comic-book drawing. Lance's tastes in internet porn - women dressed up as superheroines - and his attempt to transform his fantasies into reality - turning his real-life wife into a superheroine - reinforce the point that the male comic-book reader's fetishization of these feminine images is empty and self-defeating, and potentially dangerous if taken too far. Lance's failure to maintain the distinction between fantasy and reality leads to his own death and his wife's paradoxical transformation into an asexual being.


Or it could be Morrison just love drawing big boobs

What ever the reason I am cool with it

[Wesley Dodds]

As one tragedy unfolds, a second threatens when Alix finds herself in the
sights of the mysterious, undead super-archer Spyder assassin for hire!

A short fight -- she has indestructible skin, he shoots arrows.

[Wesley Dodds]

And Frankenstein sounds even cooler. 4 issues, and he goes from an evil store (ala Needful Things) to Martian gold mines to sentient toxic waste to faerieland. And it's a revenge story.

[berk]

Or it could be Morrison just love drawing big boobsOr all of the above.

I forgot to add another thing the Bulleteer's steel-covered breasts reminded me of: the effects of cosmetic surgery taken to the extreme. Not that the steel coating has a cosmetic function, but that the end result of the process is the same - visual stimulation but tactile frustration. In real life surgical breast enhancements place the artificial material beneath the skin rather than over it, but the effect is the same - inorganic and lifeless. The parallel is all the more striking since it appears to me that the visual pattern for contemporary superheroines is the surgically-enhanced FHM/etc model, just as that for male heroes is the steroid-pumped body-builder, in both cases as opposed to what might be thought more rational choices - dancers, athletes, acrobats, martial artists, etc, etc.

[goldenarms]

I just got into 7 soldiers and I have to damn, I'm hooked!!! I've read Clarion #1, Bulleteer #1 , Mr. Miracle #1, and 7 soldiers #0 and have loved them all. This story so far reminds me of something Stephen King would right. I kept thinking about It as I read Seven soldiers #0. I now have to go back and try to find all the other books I've missed so far. I got the rest of Clarion, and my comic store still has the Guardian #2-4 in stock.

Will we see what happened to the 6 featured in seven soldiers #0? I take it they were all killed, but I'd like to see more about them.

I was a little lost reading Mr Miracle, But I guess the other books will clarify some of the things I was uncertain about.

[4DGlasses]

Will we see what happened to the 6 featured in seven soldiers #0? I take it they were all killed, but I'd like to see more about them.

Glad you're enjoying the books too!

We should see the fate of the heroes in Seven Soldiers #0 as soon as Bulleteer #2 hits the shelf.

[Expletive Deleted]

A short fight -- she has indestructible skin, he shoots arrows.But they could be magic arrows.

[goldenarms]

Glad you're enjoying the books too!

We should see the fate of the heroes in Seven Soldiers #0 as soon as Bulleteer #2 hits the shelf.


Great!! I have a few questions.

In Mr Miracle:
1) Who is Metron, is he a new God?

2) Is the new Mr Miracle Human, or is he from Apokolips?

[Gingold]

In Mr Miracle:
1) Who is Metron, is he a new God?

Yes. Metron represents a sort of balance between the evil of Darkseid and the goodness of Highfather. His only interest is in aquiring knowledge, and can be ruthless and manipulative in that pursuit.

2) Is the new Mr Miracle Human, or is he from Apokolips?
Shiloh Norman is human. He originally appeared in Kirby's Mr. Miracle series as a young boy under Mr. Miracle Scott Free's protection. He first became Mr. Miracle during the late 80s series, though hasn't been active as Mr. Miracle in a while.

[goldenarms]

Thanks for the answers. I've recently started collecting various DC books. So I'm not too familiar with alot of the characters.

[MWGallaher]

In Mr Miracle:
2) Is the new Mr Miracle Human, or is he from Apokolips?
Shiloh Norman is human. He originally appeared in Kirby's Mr. Miracle series as a young boy under Mr. Miracle Scott Free's protection. He first became Mr. Miracle during the late 80s series, though hasn't been active as Mr. Miracle in a while.
It may prove hasty to say that Shilo is definitely human. My take on the SS Mr. Miracle #1 is that Shilo has suppressed memories of New Genesis being his true home. Kirby introduced Shilo as an orphan, and, although there may have been more of Shilo's background given in his solo series back in the 80's, Morrison may ignore that and reveal Shilo as having been an orphan from New Genesis, stranded somehow on Earth.

In fact, he may even have been stranded on Earth back in the 1940's, then caught in a trap for several decades in which he didn't age, before finally escaping, and then arriving into the guardianship of Scott Free...

Just a hunch...

[berk]

I see both Zatanna #4 and Johnny Frankenstein #1 are listed to ship this week ...

[4DGlasses]

I see both Zatanna #4 and Johnny Frankenstein #1 are listed to ship this week ...

Too sweet. Zatanna's been an EXCRUCIATING wait.

A double dose of vitamin 7S to go along with a Thanksgiving pig-out. :cool:

[Doug Strange]

Shilo's never had a solo series. Scott Free, the 2nd Mr. Miracle, had a series that was around, I believe, in the VERY late 80's and early 90's. Very short-lived, but towards the end of it, he was training Shilo as his replacement. Shilo made a couple of appearances in the Giffen/Dematteis Justice League, too.

The last issue of Scott's solo had him taking up the role full time, I think, but he was never really showed again until that atrocious Chuck Dixon mini-series, Joker's Last Laugh. Wherein he was inexplicably portrayed as running a super-hero prison (minus the Mr. Miracle trappings). He was just a goofy bohemian college student/street performer before.

[Paul McEnery]

I see both Zatanna #4 and Johnny Frankenstein #1 are listed to ship this week ...
That's what you think. Neither CBR nor Comic Relief list them.

Grr.

[Joe Rice]

That's what you think. Neither CBR nor Comic Relief list them.

Grr.

It's on the comic shop bills, though, and they're usually a MUCH better source.

[Doug Strange]

That's what you think. Neither CBR nor Comic Relief list them.

Grr.I'll kill you, Paul McEnery! I'll kill you!!!!!!!

[Indigo Al]

FRAN-KEN-STEEEEIIIIIIIIN!!!!!

Frankenstein 1 is here folks, and it's a fantastically weird, Len Wein-ish inspired little installment of the 7 Soldiers Saga!

Zatanna 4 was great (and raised so many questions), but Frankenstein could well jockey for #1 position among my fave 7S books!

[Paul McEnery]

Gwydion the merlin am I, of seven treasures one.

Hmm.

And:

I serve the new architect of the universe.

Which Z just proved is a job that she's up for.

[Shellhead]

Gwydion the merlin am I, of seven treasures one.

Hmm.

And:

I serve the new architect of the universe.

Which Z just proved is a job that she's up for.

Unlike Scarlet Witch.

[Paul McEnery]

Unlike Scarlet Witch.
Good point.

[MWGallaher]

Shilo's never had a solo series. Scott Free, the 2nd Mr. Miracle, had a series that was around, I believe, in the VERY late 80's and early 90's. Very short-lived, but towards the end of it, he was training Shilo as his replacement. Shilo made a couple of appearances in the Giffen/Dematteis Justice League, too.

The last issue of Scott's solo had him taking up the role full time, I think, but he was never really showed again until that atrocious Chuck Dixon mini-series, Joker's Last Laugh. Wherein he was inexplicably portrayed as running a super-hero prison (minus the Mr. Miracle trappings). He was just a goofy bohemian college student/street performer before.

My recollection is that in that MR. MIRACLE series--the one that began in 1989--Shilo was the "title character" during issues 22-27. That's what I was remembering as a "solo series", in the sense that lots of characters during that time were having younger characters inherit the name. I though it was pretty clear that the book was supposed to be about Shilo from then on, although they brought Scott back in to co-star right before it got cancelled. As a result, Shilo's "solo" period as the star of the book was pretty short-lived. It's certainly valid to consider that something other than a "solo series"--I had inflated that run with Shilo in the lead in my faulty memory.

[berk]

Morrison writes Gwydion's dialogue so well, evoking the poem it comes from (the one someone linked to so many pages back I don't want to search for it), that I continue to be disappointed in Morrison's rendition of the character as a sort of nearly elemental being, a mere instrument utilised by sorcerorsd like Zatanna or her enemies.

Speaking of dialogue, I loved the monster's in Frankenstein. I can't think of many writers with the ability to write dialogue of such varied tone and style as Morrison's shown in this series (in fact, it's in stark contrast to people like Bendis who do one style pretty well - and then either impose it on every character no matter what their background or personality, or fall flat on their faces when they try to write something more appropriate, e.g. Dr.Strange). Alan Moore certainly does it very well. Haven't read enough Ellis to judge yet, but I suspect he probably can.

I didn't much like the aggressively ugly artwork in Frankenstein, although I can see how it fits the content of the book so far. Sook's art in Zatanna displayed the strengths (clean lines, excellent faces and expressions) and weaknesses (overly slick at times, rendition of human form not as good as his faces) I've come to expect from his work in Zatanna (personal aesthetics involved here, of course).


One question: why was the monster called Frankenstein? I doubt this was a slip, it had to be a deliberate move from Morrison. Is he somehow both Victor Frankenstein and his monstrous creation? Or is Morrison just accepting the pop-cultural convention of calling the famous monster by the name of his creator?

These were two solid issues,but I'm not really being grabbed by the series the way I was earlier. Maybe it's the erratic schedule, maybe it was what I found a relatively dull previous issue in Bulleteer, maybe it's the increasingly annoying advertisements, maybe it's my increasing awareness of the story's connections with the rest of the DCU (something I find more depressing than attractive), I dunno. I'll be staying the course, though.

[ultramandingo]

" Liar! Its A Magnificent Beard And You Know You Want One!
Hahahahaha!"

[4DGlasses]

Frankenstein was incredible!

Uglyhead and the maggots reminded me of Swamp Thing and those monsters from the last issue of DC's New Guardians.

Zatanna...

I actually touched fingertips with the picture of Zee's hand before I turned the page to witness Zatanna's contact with the 7 mystery men. Whadda maroon!

Both books get an A. And another dozen re-reads.

[FanboyStranger]

FRAN-KEN-STEEEEIIIIIIIIN!!!!!

Frankenstein 1 is here folks, and it's a fantastically weird, Len Wein-ish inspired little installment of the 7 Soldiers Saga!

Zatanna 4 was great (and raised so many questions), but Frankenstein could well jockey for #1 position among my fave 7S books!

Not only Len Wein inspired, but I caught a lot of Richard Corben in Mahnke's art. Of the three second wave titles, this was the one I enjoyed the most (even with the gaff of putting the "1955" caption on the wrong panel, which, I'm sorry to say, did have me confused for a good minute or so.

And the most badass moment of the Seven Soldiers series so far:

"Tell them, I will find them and make hammers fall upon them like a rain. Tell them... Frankenstein lives!"

[4DGlasses]

In Zatanna, I think the fourth dimension finally rears it's head. Maybe some of you more hardcore fanboys/geniuses can point to a comic story in which a character from the fourth dimension appears. I think that's what the 7 unknown men of slaughter swamp may be. The DCU's fouth dimensional beings.

Fifth dimension? Covered with Mr. Myxyzptlk, Bat-Mite, and the Thunderbolt from JSA.

[Groovie Mann]

zatanna was good. but the last few pages seemed rushed. oh well. also it was etta candy who was in the focus group. morrison finally named her.

frankenstein was interesting. like the stuff with the character himself, not sure about all the ugly head stuff.

i only read the titles once all the way through. i'm sure after a few mroe reads, and rereading all the issues in intended order, my opinion of the book will be raised.

[berk]

another thing - why was that girl, Kim, saying "uglyhead" backwards at one point?

[Indigo Al]

What I want to know is, what did those train crashes in Frankenstein 1 have to do with Bulleteer??

[4DGlasses]

frankenstein was interesting. like the stuff with the character himself, not sure about all the ugly head stuff.

Uglyhead seems like a character from Tales From The Crypt. He has those thought balloons that appear over people's heads so he can literally read their minds.

Butterflies....

Maggots....

Darth Melmoth.

Frankenstein might actually steal the show. Next stop, MARS! :cool:

[4DGlasses]

another thing - why was that girl, Kim, saying "uglyhead" backwards at one point?

I was going to say that the balloons appear for Uglyhead to read, and since he was behind Kim when she was thinking it the word would appear backwards.

But the letters weren't reversed, so that kinda shoots that one to smitherines.

[Karl J. Barnes]

another thing - why was that girl, Kim, saying "uglyhead" backwards at one point?

Maybe she's channelling her inner Zantana??

[Erkoban]

I thought they were all stand alone?

Zattana sucked because of the fact that it was ill-paced and without a proper conclusion to the points raised.

At least the art was pretty.

[Paul McEnery]

I thought they were all stand alone?

Zattana sucked because of the fact that it was ill-paced and without a proper conclusion to the points raised.

At least the art was pretty.
Yeah, but the point is obviously to lead up to the big conclusion. Points are raised in each of the separate things that are answered in the other separate things.

You can read each story as a standalone and get something out of it, but obviously the marketing scam is to make you read the whole thing.

Which is fine by me.

Like, if you didn't read Soldiers 0, you wouldn't know anything about the 7 Unknown Men. And if you didn't read Klarion 3 and 4 or Knight 4, you wouldn't know the background about Melmoth -- but Frankenstein 1 still works.

[Paul McEnery]

BTW -- if Zor is "the renegade", how come there are still 7 Unknown Bald Gits. And how does the Time Tailor fit into this? Not to mention Ali-Ka-Zoom.

[dswynne]

BTW -- if Zor is "the renegade", how come there are still 7 Unknown Bald Gits. And how does the Time Tailor fit into this? Not to mention Ali-Ka-Zoom.

Zor is the unofficial 8th member. It goes with the theme of the Seven Soldiers...there's always an unofficial 8th member.

Ali-Ka-Zoom was the member of the Newsboy Legion (Seven members in all), who first met the Terrible Time Tailor. When you are missing a member, bad things happen (like in SS#0), which is what happened to Ali and company.

-de

[berk]

Zatanna #4 left me with the impression that the Time Tailor who confronted the Newsboy Legion was Zor - the renegade Time Tailor, and that all that stuf about trying to change the pattern, going too far, introducing a deadly plague into your world, etc, in part referred to his changing the Newsboy Legion's innocent world into one where children are raped and murdered (if that's what really happened).

The Seven Unknown Men, the "Time Tailors" - maybe a replacement was found for Zor after he rebelled? - still don't present an altogether reassuring image: seven identical-looking suit-&-tie guys in shades. Not much individuality displayed amongst them, with one very negative exception - Zor. So I get the feeling there's still more going on with them than we've yet been told.

Still awaiting futher revelations about the Sheeda as well, since Zatanna #4 merely confirmed what we'd already guessed and/or deduced from previous SS issues.

[Wesley Dodds]

Etta Candy, the fat woman from the therapy group -- apparently, the Etta Candy from Wonder Woman, who married Steve Trevor.

Zor? A Spectre villain introduced in More Fun Comics 55, according to Google. In that issue Zor and The Spectre hurled comets at each other as Zatanna and Zor do in this issue. Zor's very powerful -- he's defeated The Spectre twice, and The Spectre has only ever been able to stop him with help from The Voice.

So, Zor's a powerful villain, and Zatanna was probably only able to defeat him because she had help from Merlin.

Fans of Morrison's Doom Patrol? Here, Merlin spouts the same poetry as Rebis during the Aenigma Regis -- it's some kind of alchemy thing. And on another Doom Patrol note, we had another "bad father" in Zor.

Frankenstein quotes Milton -- which is appropriate, because in the original book he learnt English from Milton and Goethe.

It was Morrison's take on Buffy -- with a prom night worse than Carrie's.

Perhaps Kim's thoughts were backwards as a way of showing she'd just worked out how to hide her mind from Uglyhead?

So, Guardian's fighting the Sheeda invasion beachhead in New York, Klarion's following the map of the submissionaries with half of the AI Croaton, Misty has the other half and has hooked up with an army of winged horses and The Shining Knight is about to confront Glorianna. I'm not sure what's going to happen in the last issue. My prediction:



Guardian fights the Sheeda beachhead with his shield (which turns out to be one of the treasures) long enough for Klarion to follow the map to Misty, where they reunite Croaton. With Croaton united, the Sheeda stop fighting. While this is going on Sir Justin kills Glorianna, and Frankenstein finally puts an end to Melmoth. Bulleteer defeats Spyder, Glorianna's lieutenant, and Mister Miracle does something cosmic involving the 4th wall that allows the heroes to win. The 7 heroes save the day but never meet.

[Bat-Mite]

Etta Candy, the fat woman from the therapy group -- apparently, the Etta Candy from Wonder Woman, who married Steve Trevor.


I remember reading in a Morrison interview that he wanted her to be Etta Candy, but since there is no way to reconcile the continuity, we can just ignore that and pretend she is another fat person.

[Wesley Dodds]

I also really liked Zor biting the head of a pigeon when he comes through the portal.

I'm just not sure if he's supposed to be the Terrible Time Tailor from Guardian 4 -- the guy in that didn't have a beard! Zor with no beard? Impossible. Wait, maybe he did and I didn't notice -- I have to go check. Well, I guess he could have grown it since the 1940s. So, that's a new origin for Zor, then?

So, one of the unknown men who keep reality working went renegade and released a dangerous corruption -- The Sheeda. Well, we know the Spider-Mount is a robot, and Melmoth constructed the Submissionaries, and Melmoth creates the maggot-men that hatch into spine-riders -- perhaps the Sheeda aren't conscious, just a sophisticated techno-organic virus. Remember the Sheeda-speak in Shining Knight 4? Perhaps there really is nothing on their minds -- except stray TV and radio signals. This chimes nicely with my theory that Croatoan is the AI that controls. All except Melmoth, who controls the Sheeda because Croatoan is fractured (which is why he had an eye open for the dice in Klarion 4) -- perhaps he even created Glorianna to be his wife.

But it's hard to fit Misty into that -- Glorianna's her step-mother, but can Melmoth really be her father? She doesn't look like any other Sheeda, that's for sure.

[K'Nort]

I wasn't particularly excited about Frankenstein but this was fun. Creepy and gross, but fun. I forget how much I always like Mahnke's art.

And oh my goodness what a total dream of a boyfriend.

[Kent H]

One question: why was the monster called Frankenstein? I doubt this was a slip, it had to be a deliberate move from Morrison. Is he somehow both Victor Frankenstein and his monstrous creation? Or is Morrison just accepting the pop-cultural convention of calling the famous monster by the name of his creator?


Well, one could argue that the creature is the son of the creator, a Frankenstein in all but blood.

[Ultraman Max]

I've read some comments calling the Zatanna mini the "anti-Promethea" and the little jabs they were seeing seemed most apparent to me with this issue. It also happened to be the best issue of the mini, which had been my least favorite of the initial four SS releases. Really enjoyed alot of the visuals like the curtain drop and the hand towards the reader. Zatanna's series also felt like the most complete within itself of the minis that have ended so far.


Frankenstien I'm a bit iffy on, the cover and begining sequence were great but then the rest of the story felt very Hollywood status reaffirmation/horror cliche at first. Which seemed odd given Morrison's attempt at creating "counter culture" heroes with this event, but then I realized that it was meant as a Buffy spoof/sendup and while I can't say that made me enjoy the story more, it at least explained the off feel I had. Frankenstien himself looked cool, and had some great lines too.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Be honest. How many of you put your hand on Zatanna's when she reached out to the reader?

I did.

[Wesley Dodds]

Weirdly enough, I didn't like either issue at all on first reading -- I was actually disappointed. But on re-reading both issues are actually pretty good. Frankenstein as the "nightmare executioner of evil" is a good concept, and I liked the "Buffy" approach to the first issue. Zatanna 4 -- well, the 4th wall elements felt intrusive to me, and the revelation of what Zatara's 4 books are -- that was hackneyed.

I didn't like the way Zatanna 4 confused what was shaping up as a coherent plot -- is the Terrible Time Tailor supposed to be Zor? Zor's origin is that he's a renegade Time Tailor? Well, it explains how he was powerful enough to defeat The Spectre twice.

I also noticed the adaptation of an idea from The Invisibles -- there are multiple explanations for what's going on. In Shining Knight, faerieland is invading. In Frankenstein, a Victorian-era mad scientist called Melmoth is polluting the world with his creations. In Zatanna, a cosmic criminal is playing with the very fabric of reality. In Guardian, there's something like an alien invasion going on. In Klarion, the devil himself fathers a race and then comes to claim his people. In each title, reality is interpreted in terms of the dominant cultural conventions of the protagonist -- the Sheeda are faeries, aliens, monsters, demons or a virus depending on how the hero makes sense of reality. In the same way we look at schizophrenia as a brain disease but someone in medieval times would look at it as a demon problem.

And, will the dying FBI agent in Bulleteer 2 be Helen Helligan?

And as for Mister Miracle -- wasn't there a dimensional hub in the New Gods titles as well, something similar to Castle Revolving?

[K'Nort]

Be honest. How many of you put your hand on Zatanna's when she reached out to the reader?

I did.

I didn't. But I didn't realize that's what she was doing. I knew she was reaching out of her 'dimension' into the one of the seven strangers, but didn't connect that with our own fourth wall.

[Ultraman Max]

Weirdly enough, I didn't like either issue at all on first reading -- I was actually disappointed. But on re-reading both issues are actually pretty good. Frankenstein as the "nightmare executioner of evil" is a good concept, and I liked the "Buffy" approach to the first issue. Zatanna 4 -- well, the 4th wall elements felt intrusive to me, and the revelation of what Zatara's 4 books are -- that was hackneyed.


Glad I wasn't the only one then, at least where Frankenstien is concerned. It just didn't seem to have the twist that Morrison usually puts in, like Bulleteer's sex fetish angle. Except maybe having Frankenstien kill all of the infected, not just the lead one, which will likely have him branded as a monster rather than hero.

I think the 4th wall elements in Zatanna were probably why I liked the issue more than the rest of her series. As someone who's not big on the over infection of "realism" in modern superhero faire I tend to really enjoy when things are pushed in the other, meta-fictional, direction. I also feel that it brings a higer level of reader interaction to the medium, though it did seem a bit out of place in comparison with the prior issues.

[thik_3rd]

my thoughts on this 7 soldiers so far...

0 - kinda ehh, with weak art.
manhattan guardian - probably the best mini so far, with bland but serviceable art.
shining knight - sucked
zatana - it was great until 4 dropped. 4 was pretty terrible.
klarion - good all around
mr. miracle 1 - the art was really the only good thing about it. shame ferry is gone.
bulleteer 1 - decent
frankenstein 1 - decent. mahkne's art is usually good but was pretty weak here.

overall, it's ok. more compelling than good.

[4DGlasses]

Except maybe having Frankenstien kill all of the infected, not just the lead one, which will likely have him branded as a monster rather than hero.

I think from Frank's P.O.V., the reminance of maggots was the something left undone he referred to. Since the maggots spread fast, setting the school on fire might have been the only option.

Was that Caliburn, one of the 7 treasures, hanging in the butterfly store window and used to stab Uglyhead?

That 1955 caption was out in the wrong panel, correct? Frankenstein now receives a B+ for the art team and an A for writing. A FIE ON THEE!!!

I loved the almost Looney Tunes like magick exchange in Zatanna #4! It's also good to see I wasn't the only person who touched Zatanna's hand!

Misty doesn't look like other Sheeda except for in the eyes (you'd swear Klarion were at least half brother and sister).

In Frankey #1, Melmoth looks VERY human.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c42/fourdglasses/darkmelmoth.gif

[Doug Strange]

That 1955 caption was out in the wrong panel, correct? Frankenstein now receives a B+ for the art team and an A for writing. A FIE ON THEE!!!Yep. That page really threw me at first.

[Doug Strange]

my thoughts on this 7 soldiers so far...

0 - kinda ehh, with weak art.
manhattan guardian - probably the best mini so far, with bland but serviceable art.
shining knight - sucked
zatana - it was great until 4 dropped. 4 was pretty terrible.
klarion - good all around
mr. miracle 1 - the art was really the only good thing about it. shame ferry is gone.
bulleteer 1 - decent
frankenstein 1 - decent. mahkne's art is usually good but was pretty weak here.

overall, it's ok. more compelling than good.As usual, thik, you're very weird. I disagree with you on just about everything (it is a shame to lose Ferry on MM), but most of it hardly seems worth discussing.

JH Williams? Weak art? I think that's the first time I've heard that from anybody, ever. Do you dislike Williams in general, or do you like his work but found something specific to this issue disagreeable?

I don't understand your word choice at the end, either. You seem to be very blasé about the series, but you find it compelling? What is it you find compelling?

[4DGlasses]

I didn't. But I didn't realize that's what she was doing. I knew she was reaching out of her 'dimension' into the one of the seven strangers, but didn't connect that with our own fourth wall.

I hoped that after touching her hand on this page:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c42/fourdglasses/z416.gif

The next page pulled me into slaughter swamp to finish off Zor. In appreciation, Zatanna offers me her flesh as reward for vanquishing her foe. :D

I KNOW I'm not the only one, or was that the result of too much happy smoke again...???

PS - If putting images from the book without written permission will get me in trouble, let me know, please.

THANX

[Kent H]

Was that Caliburn, one of the 7 treasures, hanging in the butterfly store window and used to stab Uglyhead?

No, Justin has Caliburn. Frankenstein's sword is apparently the sword of the archangel Michael.

[4DGlasses]

No, Justin has Caliburn. Frankenstein's sword is apparently the sword of the archangel Michael.

Respek!

"Michael's Sword"

Frank's gift from the 7 mystery men is supposed the pistol that was in a gift box at the end of 7S #0, right?

[Erkoban]

My problems with Zattana explained...

Issue one, nice set-up, save for the meta-textual trip through the wonderful land of Disney-magic. That was a bit off-putting, a trick too often used by Morrison. Weird for the sake of being weird. I saw the same thing in Promethea, only it made sense there and it was fitting of the character and the story. But still it was a decent set up for a nice magic-based adventure.

Issue two, starts out picking up where the previous issue left us. Action-packed, pretty straight-foward even... up until the last couple of pages.
The main adversary created in issue one is captured and defeated, and then bottled up outside of the actual comic. We get to see a new character, and then it ends. Great, what exactly did I just read? A conclusion? Because the main story from issue one seems as good as solved in issue two, in a very anti-climactic manner even.

Issue three doesn't follow up on the ending of issue two, the mysterious stranger is prompt forgotten and Zatanna's good friend just as quickly, and off the two heroes are to destinies unknown. Issue three starts out like the beginning of a new storyarc. It's fast paced and it ends with a suspenseful scene where they flee the villain.

Issue four... is there an issue three-and-a-half that I missed, because it doesn't connect to the previous issue properly, there's a gap between the issues that makes for some restless story. Then we get an epic fight with a character that I'm not even sure appeared in any of the previous issues, it ends with a Deus Ex Machina plot-device... oooh look it's gone meta-textual again, breaking the fourth wall in the same manner it was broken in the first issue. And then it ends.

Four issues, and there are some interesting ideas there, and they all seem aborted shortly after being introduced.

The whole thing is fractured and splintered and doesn't read like a coherent story. Characters aren't introduced or vaguely introduced and then dropped completely. We get two false starts and two false endings, leaving me with a horrid sense of not caring about any of it. The start is mildly interesting, but the conlcusion anti-climactic and appears like a jumbled mess, why bother if there's nothing to resolve, if the writer appears bored with the stories he's telling me?

[4DGlasses]

Four issues, and there are some interesting ideas there, and they all seem aborted shortly after being introduced.

Cramming tons of ideas into a springboard miniseries isn't going to give you a nice clever story all wrapped in a bow. The intent of 7S was to provide fertile ground for stories to be grown out of.

I am intrigued by Promethea as a result of your review. Sounds really trippy.

[Indigo Al]

[QUOTE=Ultraman Max]I've read some comments calling the Zatanna mini the "anti-Promethea" and the little jabs they were seeing seemed most apparent to me with this issue. It also happened to be the best issue of the mini, which had been my least favorite of the initial four SS releases. Really enjoyed alot of the visuals like the curtain drop and the hand towards the reader. Zatanna's series also felt like the most complete within itself of the minis that have ended so far.


QUOTE]

Interesting. I hadn't given the Promethea comparisons much thought since everyone was mostly focused on that 2 pager in #1. But the revelation about the Libris Zatarae now makes me do a double take.

[thik_3rd]

As usual, thik, you're very weird. I disagree with you on just about everything (it is a shame to lose Ferry on MM), but most of it hardly seems worth discussing.

JH Williams? Weak art? I think that's the first time I've heard that from anybody, ever. Do you dislike Williams in general, or do you like his work but found something specific to this issue disagreeable?

I don't understand your word choice at the end, either. You seem to be very blasé about the series, but you find it compelling? What is it you find compelling?
as far as williams goes - in general i'm just not a fan. it has nothing to do with that specific issue.

yeah i had trouble with my word choice on that last sentence. even the series i'm not enjoying that much (mr. miracle or shining knight for instance) i'm really looking forward to see what happens next (or in sk's case what happened).
some of it has been great, some ok, some bad, but even the bad stuff i can't put down, basically.

[Erkoban]

Cramming tons of ideas into a springboard miniseries isn't going to give you a nice clever story all wrapped in a bow. The intent of 7S was to provide fertile ground for stories to be grown out of.

Then it should not be promoted as being a miniseries that could be read seperately from the rest. That was the sole reason why I tried Zatanna, it was a miniseries of a collection of miniseries, but it was a stand alone product.

But it isn't stand alone.

However this was not a springboard for other stories. That would undo the purpose of it being a self-contained mini-series. Why bother classifying it as a mini-series if you're going to use it as a springboard for further stories? Call it an ongoing title then, or dropp the pretense of it being stand alone.

Besides, you can call it springboard all you like, it's still a jumbled mess of seemingly abandoned and aborted ideas.

If I want danglers, I'll go and read Claremont's Uncanny X-men.

I am intrigued by Promethea as a result of your review. Sounds really trippy.

It IS real trippy, and a bit preachy at times, but even in the most confusing meta-textual wanderings of Moore he still manages to have the infernal thing make sense. It's story that runs a course that is logical and coherent, even when it is everything but presented in a coherent manner.

[Paul McEnery]

My problems with Zattana explained...

Issue one, nice set-up, save for the meta-textual trip through the wonderful land of Disney-magic. That was a bit off-putting, a trick too often used by Morrison. Weird for the sake of being weird. I saw the same thing in Promethea, only it made sense there and it was fitting of the character and the story. But still it was a decent set up for a nice magic-based adventure.

I read it as Morrison's answer to Promethea. The two writers work with different magical systems. Moore's looks backwards to symbolism, Morrison's looks forwards to new paradigms from science. What you read as weird for the sake of it, I read as new research into the interaction of consciousness, narrative and physics that goes off-piste of the usual Crowley-Kabbalah planes. It also establishes the character of Zatanna's magical universe.


Issue two, starts out picking up where the previous issue left us. Action-packed, pretty straight-foward even... up until the last couple of pages.
The main adversary created in issue one is captured and defeated, and then bottled up outside of the actual comic. We get to see a new character, and then it ends. Great, what exactly did I just read? A conclusion? Because the main story from issue one seems as good as solved in issue two, in a very anti-climactic manner even.

I expected that to go somewhere to, but instead it was just a comic wrap-up. The character is the Phantom Stranger. He's pretty well-established.


Issue three doesn't follow up on the ending of issue two, the mysterious stranger is prompt forgotten and Zatanna's good friend just as quickly, and off the two heroes are to destinies unknown. Issue three starts out like the beginning of a new storyarc. It's fast paced and it ends with a suspenseful scene where they flee the villain.

And there you have it: the magician's life. Very similar to the rockstar life, or the writer's life -- and that's who Zatanna is, too. She's a celeb. Brief encounters, then onto the next thing. Three picks up on a different element from Two than we expected, tying together some elements from SK and MG, letting us know what's going on with Misty, and setting us up for Four


Issue four... is there an issue three-and-a-half that I missed, because it doesn't connect to the previous issue properly, there's a gap between the issues that makes for some restless story. Then we get an epic fight with a character that I'm not even sure appeared in any of the previous issues, it ends with a Deus Ex Machina plot-device... oooh look it's gone meta-textual again, breaking the fourth wall in the same manner it was broken in the first issue. And then it ends.

So they stopped on the way to the swamp to get a change of clothes! Yeesh. :)
As explained, Misty needs to wrap up warm, and Z needs to have the magic outfit that fits the sitch. Zor did, of course, show up in 2, and appears to have shown up in MG4 as well, although it's unclear. The question, at this point, is this:
There was a web of plotlines leading Z to the swamp, but who was working them: the 7 Gits? Ali-Ka-Zoom? Zor? Z herself? Or all of the above? At the magical level Z's working, the distinction doesn't apply. And the first thing she does after the battle/breakthrough is go back to the encounter group and resume her celeb vapidity: la la la la la, it's just one of those things that happens. That's her coping mechanism for dealing with the freaky shit she deals with.


The whole thing is fractured and splintered and doesn't read like a coherent story. Characters aren't introduced or vaguely introduced and then dropped completely. We get two false starts and two false endings, leaving me with a horrid sense of not caring about any of it. The start is mildly interesting, but the conlcusion anti-climactic and appears like a jumbled mess, why bother if there's nothing to resolve, if the writer appears bored with the stories he's telling me?

Well yes. This is what it's like in Z's world. She's had a massive breakthrough about reality/herself, and she's trying to keep it shallow. Story of her life. Even given the massive clues, she doesn't look at the big picture. She doesn't go off to talk to another big magician about this, she talks to Etta Candy, because she makes her feel better. That's her deal.

And that's why she's a good pick for a Soldier, because she isn't prematurely joining the dots, which would be disastrous.

[Paul McEnery]

I didn't. But I didn't realize that's what she was doing. I knew she was reaching out of her 'dimension' into the one of the seven strangers, but didn't connect that with our own fourth wall.
Zatanna herself doesn't understand what just happened.

Gwydion was her will in battle. Zor turns himself into the entire universe, so Gwydion does him one better: "And I...I, the many thousand hands that hold it... I , the multi-coloured eyes that gaze upon you." That is, Gwydion has become the audience to which Zatanna is reaching -- she's understood that much -- but of course, between us and her stand the 7 Gits; who then tell her "Your audience is waiting."

[4DGlasses]

...this was not a springboard for other stories. That would undo the purpose of it being a self-contained mini-series. Why bother classifying it as a mini-series if you're going to use it as a springboard for further stories? Call it an ongoing title then, or dropp the pretense of it being stand alone.

I don't know whose idea it was to market these books as stand-alones. Whoever did was wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong!

I'm not trying to make excuses for guilty parties. This is clearly a 30-issue maxi-series regardless of the adverts.

[Ultraman Max]

I think from Frank's P.O.V., the reminance of maggots was the something left undone he referred to. Since the maggots spread fast, setting the school on fire might have been the only option.



Oh I understood his reasoning well enough, I was just saying I don't think the townsfolk would be too appreciative of him burning down the high school on prom night with their kids still in it is all. :)


Interesting. I hadn't given the Promethea comparisons much thought since everyone was mostly focused on that 2 pager in #1. But the revelation about the Libris Zatarae now makes me do a double take.

There were hints and nudges throughout the series, but it was really obvious to me during the lines concerning the end of the world. "It's just something that happens" was a line often used in Promethea and "Not on my watch" seemed like a nice counter/snub to it.

[Groovie Mann]

great, now i got to go reread promethea.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I hoped that after touching her hand on this page:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c42/fourdglasses/z416.gif

I KNOW I'm not the only one, or was that the result of too much happy smoke again...???


I must admit, I have to plead happy smoke myself....dunno if I would have done it otherwise.

[Joe Rice]

Be honest. How many of you put your hand on Zatanna's when she reached out to the reader?

I did.


I sure did. My "li'l sister" didn't, but she was on the subway at the time.

[Joe Rice]

Quick possibilities/notes:

The Seven Unknown Men appear to be some kind of fourth wall reference. Morrison once said they were all previously-appearing DC characters.

Hm.

Who has appeared in the comics AND created the comics? Morrison, Schwartz, Maggin? Anyone else?

And on the Promethea/Z tip, the beard comment and Zor rhyming with Moore seems a bit too much of a coincidence for me. The creator that started turning everything dark? I dunno.

[Bat-Mite]

Marv Wolfman, who married Donna Troy.

[Joe Rice]

Another possibility Jinah and I discussed were that they're all Grant Morrison, the seven Grant Morrisons writing the seven titles.

[Erkoban]

I read it as Morrison's answer to Promethea. The two writers work with different magical systems. Moore's looks backwards to symbolism, Morrison's looks forwards to new paradigms from science. What you read as weird for the sake of it, I read as new research into the interaction of consciousness, narrative and physics that goes off-piste of the usual Crowley-Kabbalah planes. It also establishes the character of Zatanna's magical universe.

At this point I'm guessing you're a die-hard Morrison fan and it's pretty pointless to have any debate because the only thing you see is the glory of the writer.

I don't want to hear someone using the tired old arguments "It's an exploration of this and that theme because that's what the writer always does" and "It's on such a meta-textual level that you simply haven't seen it yet, and your inability to comprehend the text and connect to it on that level is what prevents you from understanding what lies before you".

Been there, done that, people putting more into something and then claiming that their intepretation obviously is the only correct one.

"He doesn't fart, he makes a poignant social statement on the intricacies of global politics and the role the individual plays in this sadistic gam of shady men with power."


I expected that to go somewhere to, but instead it was just a comic wrap-up. The character is the Phantom Stranger. He's pretty well-established.

Unfortunately it was a wrap up. It was a new beginning.

"Golly gosh the Phantom Stranger went out and never came back if only he was here I miss him dearly"
-big battle-
"Hello ladies this is the phantom stranger just walking through the door as if nothing ever happened and I just got back from the store... ok let's just ignore that I stepped out of the door five years ago."

That was an obvious set up and was dropped with the third issue. That's bothersome. Redundant even because his return doesn't mean anything if it isn't followed up upon.


And there you have it: the magician's life. Very similar to the rockstar life, or the writer's life -- and that's who Zatanna is, too. She's a celeb. Brief encounters, then onto the next thing. Three picks up on a different element from Two than we expected, tying together some elements from SK and MG, letting us know what's going on with Misty, and setting us up for Four

No offense but that's a total cop-out.

"Oh well you know I just don't have to follow proper set up and follow up, the rules of logical and coherent storytelling don't apply here because well the main character is an X-man, Celeb, Rockstar, Magician, and those just live a life of moments and flashes.

The pacing was off, and it had nothing to do with Zatanna's profession, and everything to do with plain old sloppy storytelling.


So they stopped on the way to the swamp to get a change of clothes! Yeesh. :)

I wouldn't care about the change of clothes, if they weren't running for their lives at the end of issue three. It's the end of the world, and you know what, let's just drop everything and change clothes, no worries, no panic, we'll just forget the emergency in the previous issue and break the pace... again.

There was a web of plotlines leading Z to the swamp, but who was working them: the 7 Gits? Ali-Ka-Zoom? Zor? Z herself? Or all of the above? At the magical level Z's working, the distinction doesn't apply.

No answers given from the story itself, the story which was billed and promoted as being stand-alone.

Well yes. This is what it's like in Z's world. She's had a massive breakthrough about reality/herself, and she's trying to keep it shallow. Story of her life. Even given the massive clues, she doesn't look at the big picture. She doesn't go off to talk to another big magician about this, she talks to Etta Candy, because she makes her feel better. That's her deal.


Well no, because nothing of any importance was resolved in this series. It's an anti-climactic ending that leaves me wondering, why bother with a self-contained mini-series if it isn't self-contained and if it doesn't solve any of the problems it introduced in the time span of the four issues chosen.

Sloppy planning, sloppy pacing, anti-climactic and dense for the sake of being dense. Look at me I'm doing the same little dance Moore did.

[Erkoban]

Quick possibilities/notes:

The Seven Unknown Men appear to be some kind of fourth wall reference. Morrison once said they were all previously-appearing DC characters.

Hm.

Who has appeared in the comics AND created the comics? Morrison, Schwartz, Maggin? Anyone else?


Please let that not be the thing.

Morrison has been there has done that, and doing it again just seems like he's running out of tricks.

Something original please.

Michael Ende called from beyond the grave, he wants his story back.

[4DGlasses]

Look at me I'm doing the same little dance Moore did.

So, are you saying that Morrison's a hack? That he borrows bits and pieces from things he has read and impliments them in his own stories?

ALL writers do that!

I'll even quote the Bible (which I have a strong distaste for):

Ecclesiastes 1:9

The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Maybe you should wrap your Seven Soldiers comics up in a package and send them to Grant Morrison demanding your money back, seeing as how you're so bored with the story.

[Erkoban]

So, are you saying that Morrison's a hack? That he borrows bits and pieces from things he has read and impliments them in his own stories?


Don't get your thong in a wrinkle, I never said he was a hack.

[Paul McEnery]

At this point I'm guessing you're a die-hard Morrison fan and it's pretty pointless to have any debate because the only thing you see is the glory of the writer.
For me, it was the best of the Soldiers line, but that's probably because I practice magic. Chaos magic, to be accurate. So I appreciate what Grant's doing here. He approached the subject from four completely different angles, developing new paradigms and throwing in new wrinkles.

Yes, of course he's sparring with/riffing off Alan Moore's ideas. And of course, having a different point of view, he's going to use different narrative technology; form is supposed to mirror content.

Now I'm sorry you don't see all of that, but what the hell, I'm sure it's not for everyone. But when you complain about it being "dense for the sake of being dense"... oh, the irony!

[Sean Walsh]

According to today's LITG, here at CBR, Billy Dallas Patton appears to be out as the new MR. MIRACLE artist, and replaced with Freddie Williams III.

Any confirmation of this, or anyone know of this Freddie Williams' work?

[Ultraman Max]

For me, it was the best of the Soldiers line, but that's probably because I practice magic. Chaos magic, to be accurate. So I appreciate what Grant's doing here. He approached the subject from four completely different angles, developing new paradigms and throwing in new wrinkles.

Yes, of course he's sparring with/riffing off Alan Moore's ideas. And of course, having a different point of view, he's going to use different narrative technology; form is supposed to mirror content.

Out of curiousity, and because my gal pal also practices magic and has expressed an interest in Promethea, I'm wondering which work do you think holds up better?

[Shellhead]

According to today's LITG, here at CBR, Billy Dallas Patton appears to be out as the new MR. MIRACLE artist, and replaced with Freddie Williams III.

Any confirmation of this, or anyone know of this Freddie Williams' work?

Maybe it's a pseudonym for J.H. Williams III, the artist on Seven Soldiers #0 and the excellent Promethea series.

[Sean Walsh]

Maybe it's a pseudonym for J.H. Williams III, the artist on Seven Soldiers #0 and the excellent Promethea series.

Has JH ever used a pseudonym?

And why would he with 7 SOLDIERS - something I seriously doubt he's ashamed to be a part of (usually, when a writer/artist uses a pseudonym it's due to some embarassment/disagreement with the material their name would be appearing on)

Only reference I can find to Freddie Williams III online is thru a comic called "SHOCKING GUN TALES", published by Cellar Door Publishing a few months ago. The review - at AICN - says the art looked quite good.

For what that's worth...

[4DGlasses]

Don't get your thong in a wrinkle, I never said he was a hack.

AHHH!!!!

HOW DID YOU KNOW I WEAR A THONG!!!

:o :o :o

They're changing the artist on Mister Miracle again??? :evilangry

Get it together DC, what's the major malfunction?

[Bat-Mite]

DELETED cause I copy/pasted the wrong text I wanted to reply.

Yeah, I know I could have edited it, but I already put the correct version below as a reply to the person that brought this lapsus brutus to my attention.

[4DGlasses]

So... Gideon Stargrave, King Mob, Greg Feely, Grant "My cat just died" Morrison, Dr. Willy Wonka whatshisname from ASSuperman, and... who am I missing?

Dude, feeding the trolls makes baby Jesus cry.

Don't make Jesus cry, dude. :(

[Indigo Al]

Out of curiousity, and because my gal pal also practices magic and has expressed an interest in Promethea, I'm wondering which work do you think holds up better?

Well, things are more explicitly laid out in Promethea. I'm not quite sure Morrison meant for Zatanna 1-4 to be some kind of definitive grimoire of his magickal beliefs.

[Bat-Mite]

Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I just copy pasted the wrong text.

I actually wanted to reply to something Joe Rice said:

Another possibility Jinah and I discussed were that they're all Grant Morrison, the seven Grant Morrisons writing the seven titles.

So... Gideon Stargrave, King Mob, Greg Feely, Grant "My cat just died" Morrison, Dr. Willy Wonka whatshisname from ASSuperman, and... who am I missing?

I was just making a list of the Grants we have seen.

Mind you, I don't think it's going to be them, since they haven't appeared in proper DCU comics... except for Grant "My cat died" Morrison in Animal Man.

Heck, the text I originally quoted isn't from this thread even.

[Indigo Al]

[QUOTE=Bat-Mite]Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I just copy pasted the wrong text.

I actually wanted to reply to something Joe Rice said:



So... Gideon Stargrave, King Mob, Greg Feely, Grant "My cat just died" Morrison, Dr. Willy Wonka whatshisname from ASSuperman, and... who am I missing?

QUOTE]

Professor X?

[Bat-Mite]

Not every bald person in Morrison comics is Morrison... just most of them. Heck, some Morrisons even have hair!

[4DGlasses]

Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I just copy pasted the wrong text.

I actually wanted to reply to something Joe Rice said:



So... Gideon Stargrave, King Mob, Greg Feely, Grant "My cat just died" Morrison, Dr. Willy Wonka whatshisname from ASSuperman, and... who am I missing?

I was just making a list of the Grants we have seen.

Mind you, I don't think it's going to be then, since they haven't appeared in proper DCU comics... except for Grant "My cat died" Morrison in Animal Man.

Heck, the text I originally quoted isn't from this thread even.

Whoa... trippy.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c42/fourdglasses/Alex-Grey-as-flame1.jpg

Feels like this stuff's kickin' in....

Did anyone catch that six-sided sun bit in Zatanna #1? Sounds to me like God DOES play dice with the universe.

[Shellhead]

I like magic in comics. I've enjoyed several of the Dr. Strange runs, especially Englehart/Brunner. Hellblazer, of course, plus early issues of Books of Magic. Promethea was very cool, at least until the meandering final issues.

But Zatanna #4 went above and beyond all that. It was a paradigm-rending thrillride through dimensions of thought and possibilty. I've read this issue three times in the last four days, and I'm not done reading it yet, because I keep finding new and exciting details, both large and small in significance.

Whimsical: "Shall we take the car? Or the big flying horse?"

Dreamy: "The sun will be red and all the seas will have turned to fog."

Startling: the bullets fired from Zor's eyes.

Completely unexpected: