SEVEN SOLDIERS: Speculation & Spoilers

[Brian Cronin]

I told Wesley, but I figure I'd stop by to also tell you, CaptMagellen, that I gave you two a shout out here (http://goodcomics.blogspot.com/2005/09/seven-soldiers-guide-translating.html). :)

-Brian

[Wesley Dodds]

Brian, you rock.

But not as much as Cap and I rock. No, sir. We rock out loud.

[CaptMagellan]

I told Wesley, but I figure I'd stop by to also tell you, CaptMagellen, that I gave you two a shout out here (http://goodcomics.blogspot.com/2005/09/seven-soldiers-guide-translating.html). :)

-Brian

Way cool Brian... ah my 15 minutes of comics fame. ;)

[CaptMagellan]

Brian, you rock.

But not as much as Cap and I rock. No, sir. We rock out loud.

Yes, we even rock out with our.... sheeda.... out. :p

[darkchambers]

Is there going to be a Seven Soldiers ongoing next year?

[Gaz]

Is there going to be a Seven Soldiers ongoing next year?
Not that I know of, but anything's possible if the sales are good. (ie, I don't think that's Grant's plan, but DC might decide otherwise.)

[Joe Rice]

Justin's "Red am I in battle. Red the ravens that follow at my heels," sounds very familiar. Anyone kjnow whether this is a quote or a reference to something or other? Cu Culhain is the mythological/legendary figure who springs to mind, but I might be imagining this.

I could be WAY off here, but I took it as a menstruation thing.

[Gaz]

I could be WAY off here, but I took it as a menstruation thing.
It could easily be both a quote and an allusion to that. Like Grant wanted a quote that he could insert to have that double meaning.

[Joe Rice]

It could easily be both a quote and an allusion to that. Like Grant wanted a quote that he could insert to have that double meaning.

Yeah, true, no doubt.

[Kent H]

From my rememberance of the pre-series reports, part of Grant's intentions from the beginning was to create/reinvigorate a bunch of new characters/concepts that could be turned into ongoings if warranted.

[Lex]

The Pulse seems to be running a series of interviews with Morrison about Seven Soldiers.

The first (http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=36;t=004150) is about the Seven Soldiers concept and Morrison discusses how he came up with the Sheeda.

The second (http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=36;t=004151) is all about Shining Knight and deals with Camelot and some of the revelations of Shining Knight #4 and what's next for Justin. Also, we get some ideas that might happen if Shining Knight becomes an ongoing series.

Great articles so far! I'm guessing they'll also do articles on Klarion, Zatanna and Guardian (probably after this week's #4 comes out).

[onewhowishes]

Yes ,it is true this thread is about Seven Soldiers"rather than the characters I chose to talk about.It is true there are more appropriate threads that I could have chosen.However,gaining no responses thetre,I decided to try the idea of suprising people by placing my statement in an unexpected location.From the standpoint of gaing reponses,namely yours,I seem to have suceeded,albiet not quite in the way I had hoped.

About the two subjects I would rather talk about,namely the two characters my prior message was about,if you know of any already existing threads about them{as opposed to starting my own}i'd be most happy to send my messages there .

[Bat-Mite]

Dude. start a new thread. If nobody replies to you in your new thread, then nobody wants to talk about the topic you want to talk about and there is nothing you can do about it. You won't be the first or the last person to start a thread that gets almost none or no replies at all.

[Wesley Dodds]

So, the 7 Unknown Men have appeared before (but not together) and the Sheeda are... from earth?

[berk]

Lex said:
The Pulse seems to be running a series of interviews with Morrison about Seven Soldiers. Thanks for those links; lots of interesting stuff in there. There's a spoiler or two as well, so people will have to judge for themselves if they want to read them.

Morrison mentions that we will see the origin of the Sheeda in the Frankenstein series. I'm guessing that the Sheeda might have become the Sheeda after Morgana tried to break out of the cycle, kill the princess (Misty) who would have been her successor and achieve linear immortality. Maybe it was the discovery of the Cauldron that gave her the idea. Previously, perhaps they'd been human or at least a more human-like faery-folk.

It's interesting that Melmoth is Morgana's husband, since Maturin's character is known for achieving an immortality that he comes to regard as a kind of curse. Perhaps Morgana's immortality has been a curse for her as well, but she doesn't doesn't realize it yet?

(None of this is based on spoiler material, by the way - it's pure speculation. )

[Tobias March]

I could be WAY off here, but I took it as a menstruation thing.

You could be right there, as it would make the panel with Justin leaning against a movie poster in issue - 'Cup of Blood', I think it read and was a film about a man and a mermaid named Lorelei - a deliberate hint as to the final issue's revelation.

As for where the Sheeda are from.....the end of the universe perhaps?

[berk]

Tobias march said:
As for where the Sheeda are from.....the end of the universe perhaps? You mean that restaurant?

Seriously, though - Summer's End, their practice of destroying civilizations that have reached a peak ...

[CaptMagellan]

I'm really intrigued by the hints in those interviews. And I still want to know how Neh-bu-loh fits into the cosmollogy with his being the adult universe of qwewq (the infant version of which the Ultramarines descended into when last we saw them in JLA Classified #3).

[Tobias March]

You mean that restaurant?

Seriously, though - Summer's End, their practice of destroying civilizations that have reached a peak ...

That was exactly what I was thinking of. A parasitic race born at the end of time and with that awareness travel backwards, project themselves continually into the past of civilizations that they can "harvest".

[berk]

Captmagellan said:
I'm really intrigued by the hints in those interviews. And I still want to know how Neh-bu-loh fits into the cosmollogy with his being the adult universe of qwewq (the infant version of which the Ultramarines descended into when last we saw them in JLA Classified #3). Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how that aspect of the character fits in with his self-described origins as the Queen's Huntsman who was supposed to kill the Princess but let her go. Maybe this is another hint about the Sheeda's origins?

[ultramandingo]

cool ! kick ass fairies ! those things always creeped me out. my old irish grandmother used to say they where going to get me if i didn't behave. cant wait for 'Frankenstein vs. Fairyland'." Or "the Shining Knight versus Terra Man!"

[Kent H]

Perhaps the Sheeda were the first civilization on Earth, and somehow were cursed/charged with the task of culling stagnant civilizations.

[Grant]

Has anyone annotated this series so far? It's hard to keep the little details straight.

[Paul Newell]

Anyone want to do a Seven Soldiers FAQ?

[Lex]

The Pulse has a new Seven Soldiers interview with Morrison (http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=36;t=004159) online. This time if featured the Guardian. Not much new info, but there are three preview pages for Guardian #4.

Has anyone annotated this series so far? It's hard to keep the little details straight.

Here's one (http://www.barbelith.com/faq/index.php/Seven_Soldiers_Annotations). It's more of a wiki-type deal that's made by the fans, so it's not always fast. But, it's pretty good. They've even been putting all the issues we've seen into a timeline.

[Patience]

About the "Red am I in Battle. Red the ravens that follow at my heels" thing. At the beginning of Shining Knight #1 Morrison mentions the Morrigan prophesying the fall of Avalon. The Morrigan was a triple goddess of womanhood, war and destruction -- aka the Raven goddess. I think those words probably had religious significance to Justin. Morrigan is her patron goddess, maybe?

I really want to see her meet up with Wonder Woman, now that I think of that. She's about a hundred times better as an associate than Troy or Sandsmark.

[Paul McEnery]

Miss Hollywood = Gimmix?

[Gingold]

Every time I read a new SS book, I think to myself "this is my favorite of the minis. I doesn't get any better than this..."

So, anyway, Guardian is my favorite of the minis. I doesn't get any better than this. Nothing as shocking as the Justin(Justine?) revelation in Shining KNight f#4, but this was pretty kickass. I want an untold tales of the Newsboy Army ongoing series pronto. The Sheeda finally tie into the Guardian story in a big way, and there's even an almost-cameo by Wildcat.

And yeah, I think Miss Hollywood might be Gimmix.

[Grant]

Miss Hollywood = Gimmix?

That's what I was thinking.

[Michael Painter]

Actually, both of you are wrong. Lil' Hollywood was the alcoholic 75 year-old in Zatanna's therapy group in issue one of her mini. Compare Lil Hollywood's look to that old woman in the group. They both have a similar look.

[Joe Rice]

I want an untold tales of the Newsboy Army ongoing series pronto.

IMMEDIATELY NEED NOW PLEASE PLEASE YES

Actually, both of you are wrong. Lil' Hollywood was the alcoholic 75 year-old in Zatanna's therapy group in issue one of her mini. Compare Lil Hollywood's look to that old woman in the group. They both have a similar look.

Uh, that was Gimmix, right?

[Patience]

*Looks back at Z#1* No, Zatanna's therapy group included Misty, Gimmix, an overweight woman in purple, muscular guy in aquamarine, little guy in blue, invisible/transparent person, 75-year-old alcoholic who looks like she's still a pre-teen, guy who asked Zatanna out after therapy session.

I don't think any of them were Lil' Hollywood.

So far the only Newsboy sightings I count have been Ali KaZoom the Merlin of the Ghetto, Lil' Scarface the Undying Don, and Baby Smarts.

I have a feeling there's someone in Klarion, but I'm not making the connection...

Anyway, an interesting point below that might spoil some Guardian #4 exposition:
Anyone else notice that this big thing about the Sheeda hunting down teams of 7 comes about the time of the break-up of the Justice League (that Morrison rebooted at 7 members) in the Mainstream DCU? And someone on the DCMB brought up a point that there were a bunch of teams of sixes in the IC stuff. Did anyone determine that these two events are happening concurrently?

[Gingold]

Anyone else notice that this big thing about the Sheeda hunting down teams of 7 comes about the time of the break-up of the Justice League (that Morrison rebooted at 7 members) in the Mainstream DCU? And someone on the DCMB brought up a point that there were a bunch of teams of sixes in the IC stuff. Did anyone determine that these two events are happening concurrently?

I don't think they are. My best guess is that 7 Soldiers falls in between IC and the "One Year Later", i.e. it's concurrent with "52".

[Grant]

Every time I read a new SS book, I think to myself "this is my favorite of the minis. I doesn't get any better than this..."

So, anyway, Guardian is my favorite of the minis. I doesn't get any better than this. Nothing as shocking as the Justin(Justine?) revelation in Shining KNight f#4, but this was pretty kickass. I want an untold tales of the Newsboy Army ongoing series pronto. The Sheeda finally tie into the Guardian story in a big way, and there's even an almost-cameo by Wildcat.

And yeah, I think Miss Hollywood might be Gimmix.

I think Zantanna and Guardian have been my favorites since the beginning though the last issue of Klarion was really good (it had a Dickensian vibe to it)

Cameron Stewart is a good match for Morrison. He kind of reminds me of Dave Gibbons in how the both draw these absurd images with complete seriousness. He's got a good eye for detail too. They should do more books together. Maybe pitch hit for Quietly on Superman.

I heard Pascual Ferry is only doing one issue of Mr. Miracle. That kind of sucks. I was really excited about that one.

[ultramandingo]

so did "cap" -the kid in the helmet - kill chop (dead at 14 ) suzi? how about "millions"? (also dead at 14 ) i wonder if a 7 soldier will kill a 7 soldie r, cus one "must die"!!

[Michael Painter]

Patience, I'm sorry but you nailed it on the head. " A 75 year old alcoholic who still looks like she's a pre-teen." If you've seen the other members of the Newsboy Army, they have similar costumes in their elderly days as they do when they were young. Plus, I believe that the 75 year old alcoholic has glasses, a scarf, or a ponytale that looks similar to Lil' Hollywood's on the cover to Guardian #4.

[Patience]

The only similarity I see is the scarf. The 75-year old in Z1 is a blonde in a 50/60s sock-hop style clothing, like she was in an Elvis movie.
Hollywood in Guardian 4 is a redhead who dresses like she's got a role in Sunset Boulevard.

I think if there was a point to make them the same character, there would be more similiarity in costumes, and the hair color would be the same. Ali Kazoom showed up in 3 series so far and his look was much more consistant with his child-version in Guardian #4.
I also think there would be a point to make sure all of the newsboys age pathetically -- like Baby Brains not growing, but still becoming old in appearance -- because their loss of specialness comes with growing up.

So far, no reason to think that the blonde in Zatanna #1 was anythign but a throwawy character. Of coruse, future miniseries might prove me wrong, but I'm sticking by my guns today.

[CaptMagellan]

Anyone else notice...

Yes I did and I thought similar thoughts to yours. It's the best damn excuse to what the hell's been going on with the heroes in the DCU I've seen yet.

[CaptMagellan]

Paging Wesley Dodds: are you going to translate the one panel of ogham/sheeda speak in Guardian #4? ;)

[Paul McEnery]

So the metatextual elements of the story just came front and center. The Time Tailor is obviously Dark Grant in the persona of the cranky teenager demanding that his comics universe become dark and gritty.

This is kinda interesting when you look at Kirby's role in comics, which was just emerging from the swamp of Horror Comics. Although brighter and more imaginative, Kirby's books also had a strong, er, dark side, and one which added a psychological and mythological depth to the Weisinger worldview. This was bound to lead to the darkness of 70s comics (with or without the Vietnam war) which was bound to lead to the darkness of the Brit invasion (with or without Reagan-Thatcher).

At the same time, there's also the rot of the current decadent phase of comics, which makes Kirby look a lot more appealing. The Time Tailor deciding to turn the Newsboy Legion into freaks, madmen, dead people, and murderer-molestors -- sound a bit like IC and Bendis-Avengers at all?

So the Sheeda now look like the forces of imagination harnessed by the death wish of egotism.

Just as The Four represent the evils of corporate ownership of the imagination in Planetary, now the Sheeda represent the spiritual rot that leads to wreck of innocence.

Of course, this leaves the whole 7 Unknown Men thing up in the air: a healed Time Tailor? Is the Time Tailor the personification of the DC universe? Does he look evil through the eyes of innocence, but complicated through they eyes of a morally complex character like I, Spyder. And then again, what are the 7 Unknown Men up to in Slaughter Swamp, and why are they fleeing the Sheeda?

Again, this looks metatextual: the seven sides of Grant are sending in seven bright shiny characters who themselves need healing to heal the DC universe and make it shiny again.

Given Grant's consultancy position, it looks like the sigil is working again.

[Kent H]

The football kid is likely to show up in Mister Miracle. Ali mentioned that they threw someone down a deep dark hole, and Guardian shows FBK getting knocked into the magic chest/trunk. The solicit for MM #1 mentions him having to escape from a ablack hole, so ...

And yeah, the implication seems to be that FBK did something to Chop Suzi. Millions was supposed to be dying of old age that point anyways, though.

[Paul McEnery]

The football kid is likely to show up in Mister Miracle. Ali mentioned that they threw someone down a deep dark hole, and Guardian shows FBK getting knocked into the magic chest/trunk. The solicit for MM #1 mentions him having to escape from a ablack hole, so ...

And yeah, the implication seems to be that FBK did something to Chop Suzi. Millions was supposed to be dying of old age that point anyways, though.
Interesting that FBK is the only one who isn't named, unless I missed something...

[Expletive Deleted]

"It's Millions! And he's brought Cap!"

I'm figuring he's Captain (something-or-other).

[berk]

I think Paul is spot on with his metatextual comments. I wonder if there might even be a specific allusion to some of the recent developments in the DCU. I've read a lot of talk about a villain named Dr.Light who raped someone and then was punished by the JLA in a controversial manner. Could the crime and punishment of FBK contain a snide comment on that whole controversy?

Morrison's a clever bastard. He and Stewart make Chop Suzi the most adorable of the 7 kids (the reader is competely in tune with Big Brain's exclamation, "Wow, even machines love her"), only to pull the rug out from beneath us when he hints that she suffered some pretty horrendous fate. On the other hand, if Chop Suzi was the child victim of FBK's rape and murder, I'd remain open to the possibility that he was framed or at least that there's more to the situation than we've been shown so far.

By the way, were they calling FBK Cap? - an allusion to Captain America and Jake/Guardian?

Interesting that Ed's case might be seen as a variation of Misty's - the process of what should have been his natural development into a mature individual has been distorted.

The Time Tailor's treatment of the 7 kids was echoed in advance by Melmoth's treament of his 7 kids ("the Deviant Ones"), representative of so many others in his case of course, in the last Klarion. The Time Tailor forces them to try on "special clothes, suits you'll wear when your older" just as Melmoth tries to represent his enslavement of his kids as part of the natural process of becoming an adult (which, incidentally, brings us back once again to the theme of false distortions of the normal cycle of maturation). The Time Tailor's idea of facing the real world is shown in the series of panels in hich we see the innocents subjected to various depressing or unsavoury fates, just as Melmoth preaches to Billy that being a man means a life of hard labour in the gold mines (cf "Gold place" where the 7 kids meet the Time Tailor) .

Love the way that Jake broke free from the pattern at the end and started writing his own script. Everything was set up to follow a certain course - Ed was to sacrifice himself, one more victim of the Time Tailor's false representation of reality, and Jake was to somehow muddle on. But Jake rejects this fatalism, maybe because he isn't a kid, he's an adult who's had the opportunity to reach maturity via a relatively undistorted path, and isn't as susceptible to the kind of mental and spiritual domination the innocent 7 kids were subjected to (and through the fictional lense maybe we can see how this kind of treatment of innocent minds is truly one of the worst crimes its possible to commit; wonder if any advertising or MacDonald's execs read this issue).

By rejecting Ed's scenario - which really isn't Ed's but the Time Tailor's, from this POV - he rejects the false image of reality that's been imposed on Ed, and begins an attempt to become a truly free agent. He decides Ed can still contribute, more that he's vital tot he task ahead, whatver it might turn out to be in detail (notice that "free agent" in this case doesn't imply adolescent illusions of complete self-sufficiency).

Even Lena's sudden and totally unexpected promotion from nondescript background character (it's significant that she and all the rest of Ed's emplyee's look exactly alike) to "Guardian Girl" is part of the this process of breaking free from the Time Tailor's script (although personally I think the "Guardian Girl" comment works against this; but Morrison probably doesn't share my distaste for derivative female versions of existing male heroes). From an interchangeable non-personality she is now set to become an an individual, a participant, an active agent in the coming struggle.

This was one of the best issues of the series so far, IMO. I think that if Zatanna #4 can top this one we're in for something really special.

[Paul McEnery]

Love the way that Jake broke free from the pattern at the end and started writing his own script..
Yes and no.

There's no way he'd leave a father figure behind after all the tsuris he had to go through for leaving the last one behind.

Script.

[Michael Painter]

Well berk, I'm glad you caught on to the fact that Chop Suzi is more than she seems. If you notice, Captain 7 is put into Ali Ka-Zoom's magical cabinet because "he did something we thought was wrong."
So, it basically reinforces the idea that Captain 7 was much more of an obvious victim because Chop Suzi dies before revealing her side of the story.

Also, I checked another site, and Cameron Stewart says that if you look at the Mo Colley funeral scene, you can subtlely see that Chop Suzi is pregnant. :eek:
So Captain 7 and Suzi's secret was revealed when Captain 7 murdered her by making her give birth too young.
I already believe also that Captain 7 will show up in Mister Miracle as well because he was stuck in a place that was a black hole, and Mister Miracle's first issue involves Shilo Norman escaping from a black hole.

[Expletive Deleted]

Also, I checked another site, and Cameron Stewart says that if you look at the Mo Colley funeral scene, you can subtlely see that Chop Suzi is pregnant. :eek:Man, that's subtle. In almost every panel of the Colley, funeral, and swamp flashbacks, she's posed to minimize a clear, undistorted view of her abdomen. But once you see it, you can't miss it.

Nifty.

[ultramandingo]

Captain 7 is put into Ali Ka-Zoom's magical cabinet because "he did something we thought was wrong."

"no. she wanted me." or , what if he had a sheeda on his back?

[berk]

Michael Paintersaid:
Cameron Stewart says that if you look at the Mo Colley funeral scene, you can subtlely see that Chop Suzi is pregnant. ... I already believe also that Captain 7 will show up in Mister Miracle as well because he was stuck in a place that was a black hole, and Mister Miracle's first issue involves Shilo Norman escaping from a black hole. So you figure Shilo will turn out to be Cap - magically unaged because he's spent the intervening years in the black hole/cabinet?

I missed the panel where Chop Suzi looks pregnant, but I see it now. But she doesn't appear to be pregnant when they go into Slaughter Swamp. Could she have had the baby and died in some other manner? Or maybe she's just hiding the pregnancy beneath her loose-fitting clothes?

It is interesting that she and Cap are set apart from the others in one panel in the funeral scene - they occupy the panel by themselves with no other people or even background detail, and in the same panel they express reluctance (the only two of the group to do so) to go on this latest mission, right after Brain calls for unanimous approval. That damn Yoko is breaking up the band again - Kidding!


Paul McEnery said:
There's no way he'd leave a father figure behind after all the tsuris he had to go through for leaving the last one behind.

Script. Point taken, but if it isn't entirely Jake's own script at least it isn't Ed's or the Time Tailor's. Or so it appears at this point at least.

I was just looking over the opening scene of SS#0 and there's a little bit that's taken on a sinister tone now that I've read Guardian #4. It's when the mysterious Seven are talking to Spyder/Dalt, and one of them says, "You're working for the Seven Unknown Men now, which means we have to ... well ... tailor you to fit the job." (their bold type, not mine) And on the next page, there's a further echo of the Newsboys in the Gold House scene when Dalt says, "I think I made a big mistake. I didn't mean to come here at all." (cf Baby Scarface's ""I don't think we should be here"). Could the Time Tailor be one of the Seven? [Edit: I see Paul McEnery already made this surmise]

On the other hand, before I noticed that, I was leaning towards the idea that the Seven might be the spirits of some of the children killed by the old miser Cyrus Gold. Although, right after we hear avbout that in SS#0, the Charon-like boatman says "Well some folks claim Cyrus was an innocent victim of mob justice" (an pre-echo of Cap's treatment at the hands of the other Newsboys?) Then again, maybe the boatman is Cyrus and/or the Time Tailor, which would lend his words a new significance ...

Lots of mystery here, lots of ambiguity - which is one of the aspects that makes the series so enjoyable for me. Part of me wants to just sit back and let the story unfold, but it's also fun tp play these mental games along the way. I'm sure that Morrison is going to pull a few surprises both at the story and symbolic levels no matter how much guessing I try to do.

[Indigo Al]

Who was the "El Mar" that Ed was referring to? The one they just call "El"?
I don't have time to look through the rest of my 7S issues.

[Gingold]

Then again, maybe the boatman is Cyrus and/or the Time Tailor, which would lend his words a new significance ...


Cyrus Gold is the man who became Solomon Grundy.


Has anyone cataloged how many groups of "7 Soldiers" we've seen so far in the series?

We've got the Original SSoV seen pictured in Greg Saunder's place.

The Seven Unknown men of Slaughter Swamp.

Vigilante's attempt to revive the soldiers with Whip, Gimmix, Spyder, etc. (with the still unknown 7th soldier who backed out at the last minute).

The seven characters each starring in their own miniseries (Guardian, Sir Justin, Zee, Klarion, Frankenstein, Shilo, and Bulleteer).

The Deviant Ones (Beezer, Murderella, Nobody, and the others who I don't think were named plus either Klarion or Goldenboy to make 7)

The Newsboy Army (Cap 7, Millions, Suzi, Ali, Hollywood, Baby Brains, and Scarface)

Zatanna's group of mystics (Baron Winters, King Ra-Man, Dr. 13, Ibis, Ravenwind, Taia, and Zee herself).

Zatanna's support group minus herself and Mysty had seven members.

Caradoc, Bors, Galahad, Gawain, Peredur, Lancelot, plus Justin makes 7 knights.

That's all I can recall, any others that I missesd?

[IamtheRock3]

pretty good

Like the mixture of light heartness, humor and then total darkness..and horror, sometimes from page to page.

At time it like a fun romp but then it a pretty pitch black tale.

[ExoKnight]

With two mini-series completed so far and two more almost done. What series of the four do you think is the best. I thought Shining Knight has been the best thus far. Zantanna second.

Haven't really been too impressed with Klarion and Guardian. Although I like the Manhatten underground theme in both books. Also, the concept of the Manhatten Guardian working for a tabloid newspapers to create headlines to sell papers is a novel idea.

Looking forward to the final three series, actually quite curious about the Frankenstein one. Some great ideas put forth by Morrision. Probably give a B+ so far.

[Destro777]

Thats funny, cause I like Klarion and the Guardian books the best. They are all great stuff though. Can't wait to see how this all unfolds.

[Ultraman Max]

Guardian and Klarion are my first and 2nd favorites respectively as well. So far Zatanna's come off as the weakest mini to me, but there are aspects of it I've enjoyed too. All four have been enjoyable on some level.

[estee]

They all have their strong points...the art is bang on for each book. I can't find anything wrong on that score.

I like Zatanna the most. I guess cuz I know the character the best. She is easier to relate to.

[Doug Strange]

Don't know if this has been mentioned yet or not, but what does everyone make of the fact that the Sheeda carry green lanterns around? Anything?

[jerrymcl89]

I think Klarion is the weakest of the four so far, although I do like it, anyway. Zatanna is probably the best. I'd read either Zatanna or The Guardian in the hypothetical case that Morrison wrote them as ongoing series. I have more interest in Z, but I like Morrison's weird view of New York, and it would be cool to see more of it.

Shining Knight is good, but doesn't seem like there's a lot of room for more stories about the character.

[jerrymcl89]

That's all I can recall, any others that I missesd?

Well, the JLA, of course. Which is where Morrison first revealed Nebula Man.

[Bat-Mite]

Guardian plus the six kids that show up to help him in Century Hollow (Guardian#3) make seven.

There were six knights of the broken table fighting, missing only Justin to make seven... which explains why they didn't do so well.

[Brady]

I re-read the entire Seven Soldiers run so far the other day. Noticed a whole lot of things I'd missed, but the major one is the possible identity of the seventh soldier who got "cold feet" about joining Vigilante's group in #0. Forgive me if someone has gone over this before :o

Vigilante first fought the 'Monster of Miracle Mesa', which was in fact a Sheeda spider mare, in the 19th century. When he shows the Whip a newspaper from that time, he says "That's Johnny Frankenstein riding with me."

We know that a character called Frankenstein will star in the last 7soldiers mini. We also know that he uses dead body parts grafted onto his own body. my theory is that the character of the Frankenstein mini will be the same Johnny Frankenstein that rode with Vigilante in 1875. How is he still alive in the 21st century? Well, we already know that Frankenstein has the power to graft dead body parts to himself, which would explain his longevity (as the Whip says in #0; "Old superheroes never die, huh?"). And if he is still around it makes sense that Vigilante sought his help again, when the spider-monster that they both battled re-appeared. Vigilante says little about the mysterious seventh soldier, excpt that they got "cold feet". This might be a deliberate pun - Frankenstein literally has "cold feet", as his feet are dead body parts. Lastly, Grant has said the Frankenstein mini will be a "brutal revenge comic". Johnny Frankenstein seeking revenge against the Sheeda for the death of his old friend Vigilante?

Of course, Johnny Frankenstein might just be some pre-established DC western character, in which case my theory is shot to shreds :)

[Wesley Dodds]

Paging Wesley Dodds: are you going to translate the one panel of ogham/sheeda speak in Guardian #4?

Sorry, I've just come back from a short holiday! Right on it! (Sorry if anyone else has already done it.)

Also, I don't want to say Seven Soldiers is just good -- it is now almost my reason for being. These aren't just good comics, they have enriched my life. Hyperbole? No.

(goes off to transliterate)

[Wesley Dodds]

OK! Too easy. Page 10, Panel 5:

m m m
d e a t h

"Mmm... Death."

By the way, I worked out that Cap killed Suzi, but I didn't notice her pregnancy. Nice work spotting that, guys.

[Psychoweasel]

I have a theory about the Terrible Time Tailor...he definitely ISN'T a villain, and he is DEFINITELY not working for/with the Sheeda Queen. So what is he?

Did you notice in Guardian #4 that he was watching the Sheeda Queen from a distance? She was invoking her magic mirror, did you wonder why? I propose it was because the Tailor was in fact the voice in the magic mirror seen in issue #1 of Shining Knight! Also, he was the one who formed the new and old Seven Soldiers in the first place in issue #0! No, the Terrible Time Tailor is something much worse than a mere villain. He is the manipulator behind the entire conflict! He brought the Sheeda to Earth, and he formed the Seven Soldiers each time to battle them! He is the puppetmaster, making strange new suits for his pawns. He is the mysterious man behind the scenes, juggling the fates of many for an unknown purpose...

...no, personally I think that the Newsboy Legion stumbled across something more sinister than the Sheeda. I believe they actually came across the residence of Grant Morrison himself, and that this is another 'author in the comic book' situation...like the one he did in Animal Man.

Didn't anyone else notice that the Tailor closely resembles Grant Morrison himself?

Also, don't forget Lil' Hollywood was likely the new Gimmix from issue #0...remember, EVERYTHING is interconnected in this little weird corner of the DCU. Gimmix did say she was in Zatanna's support group...and as Zee only went ONCE, we can safely assume this was the meeting they met at. The past actions of the Newsboy Army are having very strong repercussions on the new Seven Soldiers.

Everything is too interconnected to not be part of a grander scheme. There is a manipulator unseen, and I believe it is the Tailor manipulating both parties.

I don't believe that Guardian is Captain 7 returned from the cabinet. That theory is full of holes, the biggest being that Baby Brains would likely not have anything to do with him dead or alive. Cap 'had' Chop Suzi, whom Baby Brains was deeply in love with. Remember, at the beginning of issue #4 BB mentions that "machines love her too" and then later starts crying when she and Captain 7 decide to not go with the team to Slaughter Swamp. The whole 'two teams' schism was caused by Cap & Suzi's relationship...they were growing apart from the team. BB was obviously still in love with Suzi, who only had eyes for Cap. And we all see how that ended up after Morrison go his hands on them...

[Wesley Dodds]

I agree that the Sheeda are probably just a front for another menace. In an interview, I remember Morrison talking about other villains (not the Sheeda).

But I don't agree L'il Hollywood is Gimmix. I'm pretty sure she's just supposed to be an aged Merry, Girl of 1000 Gimmicks.

[Wesley Dodds]

I don't think that's a magic mirror in Shining Knight 1 -- I think it's just Gloriana talking to herself.

[CaptMagellan]

But I don't agree L'il Hollywood is Gimmix. I'm pretty sure she's just supposed to be an aged Merry, Girl of 1000 Gimmicks.

That's my take on it too.

As for the Terrible Time Tailor... I don't know. Not enough data yet for an informed opinion. But...

His whole bit about the clothes and the 'tailoring' comment mentioned in SS#0 remind me a lot of the 'fiction suit' concept that Morrison continually plays around with. And like other posters have mentioned, the tailor has a passing similarity to Morrison's bald visage.

One of the increasingly overt subthemes in the DCU right now is the metatextual idea of the characters being characters/the nature of the old multiverse crisis/etc. (see JSA, the Power Girl arc in JSA Classified, etc.). Depending on HOW overt these themes become, the 7 mysterious bald weirdoes of the swamp may represent a similar level of being to the yellow aliens from Grant's Animal Man run, or even the 'writers' of these characters themselves (like when Grant wrote himself into the last issue of his Animal Man run).

If this is the case and isn't me just drinking a bit too much tequila ;) then maybe the Terrible Time Tailor is rogue (enjoying causing misery and pain on the characters for the sake of 'drama' and 'realism') or maybe is actually creating harsh elements for the sake of the story ("I'm sorry your life sucked but it was neccessary to set up the story for our REAL heroes") and for the eventual success of the 7 Soldiers.

I'm sure the final answer will be weirder and more unexpected but there seem to be stronger metatextual connections between 7 Soldiers and the rest of the DCU as it speeds towards Infinite Crisis.

Heroes betraying each other... something like that was mentioned by the queen in Shining Knight #4.

It's the culmination of the Kali Yuga (approx 200,000 years ahead of schedule). Game over man... unless the heroes can pull something off.

[berk]

Psychoweasel said: I believe they actually came across the residence of Grant Morrison himself, and that this is another 'author in the comic book' situation...like the one he did in Animal Man.

Didn't anyone else notice that the Tailor closely resembles Grant Morrison himself? Yeah, Paul McEnery already made this observation and had several very interesting things to say about the whole metatextual aspect of Guardian #4. Check a few posts back, when Guardian #4 first came out.

[Shellhead]

I just wanted to say that I've been loving this Seven Soliders project, but I've been unwilling to read this thread because I'm behind on the issues. I've got all four Shining Knight issues, plus the first two of Zatanna, and the first issue of Klarion. As cash flow permits, I will buy everything else available and start posting here.

[CaptMagellan]

I just wanted to say that I've been loving this Seven Soliders project, but I've been unwilling to read this thread because I'm behind on the issues. I've got all four Shining Knight issues, plus the first two of Zatanna, and the first issue of Klarion. As cash flow permits, I will buy everything else available and start posting here.

Get them. Get them all! If you play them backwards, at 78rpm, you hear the backmasking from Stairway to heaven. ;)

[Gingold]

I agree that the Sheeda are probably just a front for another menace. In an interview, I remember Morrison talking about other villains (not the Sheeda).

But I don't agree L'il Hollywood is Gimmix. I'm pretty sure she's just supposed to be an aged Merry, Girl of 1000 Gimmicks.

Well SS#0 gives Gimmix's name as Jaqueline Pemberton, so she's probably a relative of Merry Pemberton- who's showed up looking much much older in the pages of Young Justice (of course the pre-SS Klarion appeared there too, so who knows what's in continuity anyway).

[ExoKnight]

I just got my copy of Guardian issue 4 yesterday, read through it. After reading it, it bumped up the entire mini-series for me. The issue is awesome. Best read of the month. The whole backstory on kid's army is absolutely great, nice rich background. As the pieces are coming together this whole experiment is starting to rock.

[twilight]

Preview of Mister Miracle #1 at popcultureshock.com;

http://www.buzzscope.com/reviews.php?id=4918

Looks fantastic.I get the feeling this is going to be my favourite of the series.

[Michael Painter]

Well looks like from the preview, we can add another group of seven to this event.
Shilo Norman is one of the seven celebrity wonders of the world. :D

Too bad Ferry is only doing this one issue, I would've really liked to seen him do this whole series. From what I've seen, this issue is just amazing.

[Wesley Dodds]

Preview! Preview! Thank you Jesus!

BTW, I'm now unsure who Gimmix is supposed to be -- Merry Pemberton's sister, who stole/borrowed her gimmicks? Is she L'il Hollywood? Shiranai. Zettai shiranai.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Does anyone know why Ferry is only doing one issue? Did he piss somebody in DC Editorial off or something?

[Michael Painter]

Supposedly Ferry is planning to go exclusive with Marvel soon. You know I would say its because DC doesn't want to give free publicity to an artist that transitions into another company's work the next month, but editorial kept Ryan Sook onboard for the long haul for Zatanna, and after his last issue, he planst to be part of the regular team for X-Factor.
So, I really don't know the whole story, but it seems there's more to it than he going to be exclusive soon. It could even be DC wasn't confident that he could get four issues out in the time for the event, considering he had massive delays for Adam Strange.

[Tobias March]

Preview of Mister Miracle #1 at popcultureshock.com;

http://www.buzzscope.com/reviews.php?id=4918

Looks fantastic.I get the feeling this is going to be my favourite of the series.

Ferry's art in Adam Strange was absolutely beautiful. That's a trade well worth picking up.

Loved Grant's take on the New Gods in JLA, glad they're getting a look into Soldiers.

[Lex]

Loved Grant's take on the New Gods in JLA, glad they're getting a look into Soldiers.

Yeah, it's good to see New Gods concepts in the DCU again... aside from Darkseid being beat up by Superman.

I smiled when I saw the "Ping Ping Ping" in this preview.

[Wesley Dodds]

One issue?! Evil! Evil! Evil! Symmetry of entire project in danger! Aaahhhhhhhhhhh!!!!

[Michael Painter]

I already see a Zatanna connection from the first five pages of Mister Miracle.
He is considered one of the seven celebrity wonders, I bet Zatanna's magic acts are also categorized like so.

[berk]

Tobias march said:
Loved Grant's take on the New Gods in JLA, glad they're getting a look into Soldiers. I didn't and I'm not. As much as I'm enjoying Seven Soldiers, as impressive as Morrison's performance has been, I'd prefer he left the New Gods alone. I thought his take on them in JLA was absolutely abysmal, with Orion completely mis-characterized (as I believe Morrison's admitted himself, pleading editorial interference) as a foolish blustering bully, Darkseid in ranting-Thanos-mode, Metron a lame duck just to make Batman look cool, ... and on and on. It was very much in the by now established DC tradition of using Kirby's characters as props to further exalt the more popular DC icons.

Let me cut off this rant before I really get going. Having said all the above, I don't think Morrison's going to make the same mistakes here. Seven Soldiers is a much better book than JLA and besides, the usual suspects (Batman, Superman, etc) aren't present, so he shouldn't feel any need to denigrate the Kirby characters in order to make DC's money-makers look good in contrast. And his Klarion has shown he's capable of presenting a unique take on a Kirby character while remaining true to the spirit of the original.

I do have a problem with DC using Kirby's creations without (I think?) paying any compensation to the Kirby estate, but that's another topic. Here I'm just talking about the creative aspect of the question. (My impression is that DC has been marginally better than Marvel about compensating creators, so I hope I am wrong about this).

[Gingold]

BTW, I'm now unsure who Gimmix is supposed to be -- Merry Pemberton's sister, who stole/borrowed her gimmicks? Is she L'il Hollywood? Shiranai. Zettai shiranai.

Well,I just did some checking. Apparently Merry Pemberton was adopted by the family of Star Spangled Kid Sylvester Pemberton, and according to my almost 20 year old copies of Who's Who, the Pemberton's didn't have any female children. Apparently there was another Pemberton brother other than Syl who's name was never revealed, so maybe Jaqueline is Merry's niece? Sister in law? Illegitimate daughter? Unrevealed adoptive sister? Cousin? I wonder if we'll find out, or if Grant just threw the Pemberton name out there just to provide a connection with the original Gimmick girl.

She still could be Lil Hollywood, I suppose. At what time period did the Newsboy Army's adventures take place? Late '50s? Early '60s?

[jerrymcl89]

She still could be Lil Hollywood, I suppose. At what time period did the Newsboy Army's adventures take place? Late '50s? Early '60s?

Although Whip states that Gimmix was lying about her age, there is no (non-magical) way she could be a contemporary of Ali and the Don.

[Sandy Hausler]

I do have a problem with DC using Kirby's creations without (I think?) paying any compensation to the Kirby estate, but that's another topic.

I'm not aware that DC (or Marvel) pays ANY creator who it hired on a work for hire basis (as Kirby and any other creator was) for the use of their creations. The reason is simple -- DC owns the characters. That' s what work for hire means.

If you're just making an "ethical" argument, then you should be arguing against the work for hire concept altogether and as it relates to all creators (and not just one comic book creator).

Sandy Hausler

[hondobrode]

I said about a year or so ago, maybe on these boards, maybe some others, that Grant would be THE man to put the right spin on the New Gods. I could see him making them a top book for DC.

The Seven Soldiers series are really popping right along, aren't they ? I have liked them all and am confident that DC will produce an ongoing.

[Tobias March]

The man's going to be fairly busy afterwards with '52', but twould be nice alright to see more of the Soldiers (though seven of them will not necessarily be about :p )

[berk]

If you're just making an "ethical" argument, then you should be arguing against the work for hire concept altogether and as it relates to all creators (and not just one comic book creator). I do disagree with the work for hire concept and think that creators should be compensated if someone else is profiting from their creations. I singled Kirby out since we were talking about the New Gods, but if the creators (or families) of the original, say Zatanna, are still around I'd like to see them being compensated as well. But it was just an aside and I didn't want to dertail the thread onto that issue.

[Lex]

The man's going to be fairly busy afterwards with '52', but twould be nice alright to see more of the Soldiers (though seven of them will not necessarily be about :p )

Well there are four other writers working on 52 as well. I can't believe it sucks up that much of his time. Plus, he has a ton of other stuff coming up. There's Wildcats with Jim Lee. And there should be a ton of new series about obscure DC character that he will either write himself or give his ideas to other writers (I think these will be popping up all through 2006 and 2007).

And that's just the official stuff DC has told us. There are a few rumors about other stuff Morrison could be doing.

Even though he's doing all that, I'd be surprised if we didn't see a new series (mini or ongoing) with one of these Seven Soldiers in the next two years.

[Tobias March]

I keep thinking of I,Spyder's makeover in Soldiers #0. Was he actually transformed into a vassal for the Sheeda by the Seven Men of the swamp/the Terrible Time Tailor, or recruited by the Queen after that initial assault? We always assumed it was the latter, but that last issue of Guardian put a different spin on things.

It seemed to suggest that the Tailor was in fact facilitating the Harrowing by presenting Seven Soldiers for each conflict. Somehow through not being assembled, this latest selection may have a chance - the Tailor is unable to sketch out their futures/costumes/fiction suits as he did Chop Suzi, Millions and the rest.

[RobCharlton]

I thought there was a connection/resonance with older Grant stuff.
Specifically Ali Ka Zoom's foretold fate as a homeless schizophrenic,
combined with what we saw of him in Zatanna/Shining Knight as
a powerful magician.... really, really put me in mind of Tom'o'Bedlem.

Loving all the soldiers too, I'm picking no favorites.

[Lex]

I don't normally promote Lying in the Gutters, but this week it's appropriate.

Rich devotes 2/3 of LITG with an in-depth look at the Seven Soldiers books released so far. (http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/?column=13)

It's the best LITG ever!

[Wesley Dodds]

LitG speculates that Justin had trouble defeating guilt because he's before "logical immunity". Morrison has said that Justin externalised guilt because he's from a time before the corpus callosum evolved -- the partial separation of the left and right brain. Perhaps "logical immunity" is the corpus callosum and the related ability to tell something's internal and not external?

[CaptMagellan]

LitG speculates that Justin had trouble defeating guilt because he's before "logical immunity". Morrison has said that Justin externalised guilt because he's from a time before the corpus callosum evolved -- the partial separation of the left and right brain. Perhaps "logical immunity" is the corpus callosum and the related ability to tell something's internal and not external?

I agree with this but I think it's only part of the picture. The Corpus callosum is the physical 'vehicle' for the phenomenon of external manifestation but not the source or cause - similar to how temporal lobe epilepsy as a physical 'vehicle' for mystical experiences (of course, those who discount any mystical experience will also label TLE as the source and cause but we're in comic book land here).

In addition to physical vehicles are also the ontological (the language of the culture allows for these events to be 'real') and the paradigmatic (in this sense, the feedback between the individual and the objective reality also conforms to this belief and is 'real').

Where all three of these collide (Justin's pre-corpus callosum state, his ontology, and the spiritual phenomenon of his paradigm - the Queen and her court, the sheeda, etc.) is where his 'guilt' manifests.

His pre-CC state easily allows for his feeding of external phenomena with his own personified guilt. His ontology easily allows for him to understand the concepts of spiritual menaces that conform to an ur-grail quest myth. His paradigm easily allows for extra-human and trans-personal phenomena and beings to interact with him in the form of a 'programmed' enemy sent from the Queen to plague Justin.

Another reason why I think the Guilt monster came from the Queen (more than JUST being a manifestation of his own guilt) is that the words and syntax it used was alien to Justin and his time (or any human before the advent of computers). It used language, we as an audience can understand, that indicated it was a programmed servitor sent to fulfill a function similar to a subroutine.

In other words, the Queen sent a spirit servitor of guilt to follow and plague Justin (or maybe, outside of time, she placed it on standby mode, awaiting his re-entry from castle revolving before being activated), he didn't deny or use any logic to combat it due to both his pre-illogical immunity state and his ontology that allowed these phenomena as possible, and his own guilt manifesting through his pre-cc state fed the being and gave it more power than it would have had without his own guilt.

Once he banished his own guilt (taking one of the crucial components of manifestation away) he was therefore able to banish the simplistic servitor through a simple invocation of Camelot and the virtues s/he held true.

[Wesley Dodds]

I agree with this but I think it's only part of the picture. The Corpus callosum is the physical 'vehicle' for the phenomenon of external manifestation but not the source or cause - similar to how temporal lobe epilepsy as a physical 'vehicle' for mystical experiences (of course, those who discount any mystical experience will also label TLE as the source and cause but we're in comic book land here).

I *do* discount the metaphysical aspect of mystical experiences (I'm sure they feel nice but that's about it) but I understand what you're saying and in the context of the story agree with it. I think you've just about got it here -- perhaps this will tie into the true identity of the Sheeda, which Morrison said we're not going to learn until Frankenstein 4.

[GremlinClr]

Soooo...am I the only one that would jump at the chance for a Newsboy Army monthly by Morrison? I think that would be such a fun read and think it's one of the best parts of 7S so far, although I loved the whole Guardian mini.

[Tobias March]

I *do* discount the metaphysical aspect of mystical experiences (I'm sure they feel nice but that's about it) but I understand what you're saying and in the context of the story agree with it. I think you've just about got it here -- perhaps this will tie into the true identity of the Sheeda, which Morrison said we're not going to learn until Frankenstein 4.

Nice. I recently saw footage of a very drunk and stoned Morrison giving a lecture were he mentioned Julian Jaynes' theory on the bicameral mind, so it's more than probable.

[CaptMagellan]

Soooo...am I the only one that would jump at the chance for a Newsboy Army monthly by Morrison? I think that would be such a fun read and think it's one of the best parts of 7S so far, although I loved the whole Guardian mini.

I'd dig that. Or a Newsboy Army mini, or special, or whatever. I'd love to see Morrison have fun with that idea. In a weird sort of way I could see it being Seaguy meets the Lil Rascals.

[Paul McEnery]

Okay, so is this something that was already there, or is it new, the bit with Darkseid triumphant? Or is this parallel universe time?

[dswynne]

My guess is that since Morrison's Seven Soldiers is basically taken place between "Infinite Crisis" and "One Year Later", I say this is within continutiy standards.

-de

[Patience]

Well, how long has it been since we've seen Darkseid? Maybe he was triumphant off-panel?

[Expletive Deleted]

Well, how long has it been since we've seen Darkseid? Maybe he was triumphant off-panel?He's been in SUPERMAN/BATMAN fairly recently.

[noh-varr]

It's probably something that will happen and may unhappen by the end of the series, or (hope hope hope) this will lead into a Morrison written New Gods series! Honestly I don't care "when" this happens, this is good versus evil and already epic and it's just one issue in! I loved the art and am disapointed we lose this wonderful penciler after this one. But wow the story! We have the Furies with Granny Goodness, Metron, and Death! I do wonder why Death isn't skiing though. Anyways we have Mister Miracle one of the SEVEN celebrity wonders of the world! Yay!

[berk]

Is this reality in which Darkseid's already won the war connected with the Time Tailor's rather grim version of reality in which everyone's a victim, a criminal or a down-&-out loser? Either a more extreme version of it, or perhaps the very same one?

I have to hand it to Morrison; I was, and still am at some level, hostile to the idea of him incorporating Kirby's creations into Seven Soldiers, but this first issue has nearly won me over. Mentor's dialogue was spot on (atonement for the woefully inadequate JLA version of the character?), and the variations on Granny and the Furies and the Black Racer were all intriguing.

The only really jarring note for me was the speech of Mother Box. I don't recall any Mother Box ever communicating verbally before in Kirby's books, though I could be wrong. That always enhanced the mystery and weirdness of the concept for me.

Perhaps, though, this was a deliberate move by Morrison to leave us in doubt as to whether Shilo's Mother Box is the real thing, a physical piece of New-Genesis tech, or a projection of some aspect of his own psyche - as his psychiatrist (a fallen Highfather? too early to say) tries to tell him ("Demons and angels are all within us. Their titanic campaigns are fought over and over agin in the churning mud of human hearts and minds").

I'm still too suspicious to relax yet, though. Been burnt too many times before.

Loved Ferry's art, by the way. Who's taking over?

EDIT: I was just glancing at the issue again, and I'm wondering about that little bit where the psychiatrist is eating a chocolate bar - is that melted chocolate dripping down his chin or something more sinister?

[Patience]

EDIT: I was just glancing at the issue again, and I'm wondering about that little bit where the psychiatrist is eating a chocolate bar - is that melted chocolate dripping down his chin or something more sinister?

I noticed that too. It looked very red to me...

[berk]

I see that perhaps Morrison does address the Mother Box situation when he has her say "You never knew what I was ..." , which might imply that like so much else she is not completely her usual self in this fallen world.

[GremlinClr]

Has there been any explanation for why SS: MM #1 came out today yet #2 won't come out til December? Or should I just chaulk it up to the whole "Monthly?! HA!" syndrome?

[berk]

Has there been any explanation for why SS: MM #1 came out today yet #2 won't come out til December? Or should I just chaulk it up to the whole "Monthly?! HA!" syndrome? I was going to guess that it had something to do with the change in artists, but looking back at the schedule printed in SS#0 I see that it's the same. SO I think it must have to do with how Morrison wants the over-all story to unfold. Maybe there would be spoilers in MM #2 for some of the books that are coming out in Oct and Nov?

One thing I forgot to bring up and that I haven't seen anyone mention is how Nebuloh's spider-steed in SK#4 was a robot. Does this have something to do with Nebuloh's connections with the pocket universe from that JLA mini series? Seems odd for the Sheeda to be using that sort of technology as opposed to magic. What are Nebuloh's origins anyway? And how did he become the Queen's "huntsman"?

[kossori]

The books rotate on a bi-weekly schedule.

Mister Miracle #1
-two weeks-
Zatanna #4
-two weeks-
Klarion #4
-two weeks-
Bulleteer #1
-two weeks-
Frankenstein #1
-two weeks-
Mister Miracle #2

then it'll be MM, Bulleteer, Frankenstein, rotating in that order until the end...

[Converge]

I liked this issue, even though I know nothing of New Gods or Mister Miracle.

[Paul McEnery]

Is this reality in which Darkseid's already won the war connected with the Time Tailor's rather grim version of reality in which everyone's a victim, a criminal or a down-&-out loser? Either a more extreme version of it, or perhaps the very same one?

I have to hand it to Morrison; I was, and still am at some level, hostile to the idea of him incorporating Kirby's creations into Seven Soldiers, but this first issue has nearly won me over. Mentor's dialogue was spot on (atonement for the woefully inadequate JLA version of the character?), and the variations on Granny and the Furies and the Black Racer were all intriguing.

The only really jarring note for me was the speech of Mother Box. I don't recall any Mother Box ever communicating verbally before in Kirby's books, though I could be wrong. That always enhanced the mystery and weirdness of the concept for me.

Perhaps, though, this was a deliberate move by Morrison to leave us in doubt as to whether Shilo's Mother Box is the real thing, a physical piece of New-Genesis tech, or a projection of some aspect of his own psyche - as his psychiatrist (a fallen Highfather? too early to say) tries to tell him ("Demons and angels are all within us. Their titanic campaigns are fought over and over agin in the churning mud of human hearts and minds").

I'm still too suspicious to relax yet, though. Been burnt too many times before.

Loved Ferry's art, by the way. Who's taking over?

EDIT: I was just glancing at the issue again, and I'm wondering about that little bit where the psychiatrist is eating a chocolate bar - is that melted chocolate dripping down his chin or something more sinister?
It was definitely sinister. Is he actually Metron (the shiny eyes)? Or another Darkseid guy?

As for Mother Box -- she's just been recast as Barbelith.

[Wesley Dodds]

Hmm, I didn't like MM as much as the others, but perhaps it'll grow on me. I do hope they find a new artist with a similar style, though -- for the flow of the story.

I'm not convinced the inclusion of the New Gods in this story was such a good idea -- Darkseid's a big enough threat on his own, so why are we so worried about the Sheeda?

And just as we were talking about the bicameral mind and the Sheeda, Shiloh's therapist says this: "Demons and angels are within us. Their titantic campaigns are fought over and over in the churning mud of human hearts and minds." Now, I'll bet he's a bad guy because of that sinister chocolate bar, so the opposite may true -- angels and demons do exist (i.e. the Sheeda, the New Gods etc.), and their battles are fought in human minds. Logical immunity, the recent development of the corpus callosum, enabled humans to distinguish between what's real and what's in the mind, but that doesn't mean things in the mind aren't real after all!

And, with this issue we've just passed the series halfway mark.

[Wesley Dodds]

As for Mother Box -- she's just been recast as Barbelith.

Hah! Well-spotted.

So, Barbelith is the placenta that is supporting Mister Miracle until he can be born into a higher state of consciousness/existence. Hah!

[CaptMagellan]

Hah! Well-spotted.

So, Barbelith is the placenta that is supporting Mister Miracle until he can be born into a higher state of consciousness/existence. Hah!

Heh.

And his current plight (the conspiracy to keep him feeling borderline insane and ineffective and disbelieving) is just another trap to escape.

"It's just a game. Try to remember."

[mdg1]

The only really jarring note for me was the speech of Mother Box. I don't recall any Mother Box ever communicating verbally before in Kirby's books, though I could be wrong. That always enhanced the mystery and weirdness of the concept for me.


While Kirby never had them talking, there is a precedent (oddly enough, Shiloh's Mother Box in the 1980's MISTER MIRACLE series). Note, also, that it didn't talk until he passed the event horizon. This is almost certainly relevant.

[mdg1]

One thing I forgot to bring up and that I haven't seen anyone mention is how Nebuloh's spider-steed in SK#4 was a robot. Does this have something to do with Nebuloh's connections with the pocket universe from that JLA mini series? Seems odd for the Sheeda to be using that sort of technology as opposed to magic. What are Nebuloh's origins anyway? And how did he become the Queen's "huntsman"?

Ask yourself this question. What evidence do we have that the Sheeda EVER used (as opposed to stole) magic?

[berk]

Ask yourself this question. What evidence do we have that the Sheeda EVER used (as opposed to stole) magic? Yes, I think this will become clear when we see the true origin of the Sheeda. I almost don't want to speculate too much about it, because Morrison's done such a good job of misdirection.

What the heck is a Barbelith? I did a quick google and a lot of links to Morrison's Invisibles came up, so don't anyone answer if it's going to spoil the Invisibles for me - I've read only the first trade so far.

[Paul McEnery]

Yes, I think this will become clear when we see the true origin of the Sheeda. I almost don't want to speculate too much about it, because Morrison's done such a good job of misdirection.

What the heck is a Barbelith? I did a quick google and a lot of links to Morrison's Invisibles came up, so don't anyone answer if it's going to spoil the Invisibles for me - I've read only the first trade so far.
Oh, like there's a simple answer to the question anyway.

Now hurry up and read the rest, so we can get back to our regularly scheduled spoiling.

[berk]

Oh, like there's a simple answer to the question anyway.

Now hurry up and read the rest, so we can get back to our regularly scheduled spoiling. Well, I was all set to begin the second trade when I started getting into Seven Soldiers, and put it on the back-burner. And now, even though I gather that SS would be more resonant for me if I'd already read the Invisibles, I find my attention so focused on the current series that I'm afraid I wouldn't appreciate the Invisibles as much as it deserves if I tried to read it in between. But maybe that's what I'll do, read a trade in those two-week intervals between SS installments.

I'm not convinced the inclusion of the New Gods in this story was such a good idea -- Darkseid's a big enough threat on his own, so why are we so worried about the Sheeda? This is one of the many reasons I was leery of the idea as well (I don't even think the New Gods should be part of the DCU at all for related reasons). But I'm witholding final judgement until the entire series is done. Remember, there have been hints (again, I almost don't want to say this, because the story's been constructed so masterfully so far) that the Sheeda may not be the ultimate villains they've appeared to be so far. There's still quite a bit of mystery about the origins and even the true nature of the entire conflict.

EDIT: forgot to say what's probably obvious anyway: of course, don't anyone limit their discussions just because I'm the only idiot here who hasn't read the Invisibles yet. It's my own fault if I'm dumb enough to read obvious "spoilers," if you can use that term in regards to a series that was published 10 years ago.

[CaptMagellan]

Well, I was all set to begin the second trade when I started getting into Seven Soldiers, and put it on the back-burner. And now, even though I gather that SS would be more resonant for me if I'd already read the Invisibles, I find my attention so focused on the current series that I'm afraid I wouldn't appreciate the Invisibles as much as it deserves if I tried to read it in between. But maybe that's what I'll do, read a trade in those two-week intervals between SS installments.


I think you'll probably get a lot out of the experience that way.

I find the Invisibles to be an... altering... experience. It's very entheogenic in it's own right.

Have fun and don't operate heavy machinery ;)

But seriously, about Barbelith, the nature of Barbelith is intimately tied in with the final revelations of the whole series... so yeah, it's hard to talk about it much without giving too much away.

The one thing that I think is safe to say, considering that Morrison let this tidbit out in letter columns early on in the series is that the phenomenon that he named Barbelith was inspired by Valis by Philip K Dick.

[K'Nort]

Well I only read the first trade of Invisibles and decided I didn't like it. So we can be lost together.


Really glad I read all the Fourth World series. I mean, presumably it makes sense regardless, but it's those recognitions that I really enjoy. Although the talking mother box was a bit odd.

The chocolate bar thing jumped out at me too. Raspberry-filled ones are big around here, though. Maybe it's just a red herring. The shrink is definitely something more than that, regardless.

[Indigo Al]

I don't think we saw one real New God in that whole entire issue. It was all Sheeda playing tricks.

[berk]

Well I only read the first trade of Invisibles and decided I didn't like it. So we can be lost together. I think it's tough to judge the first trade, because it doesn't read as if it were ever intended to stand alone as an independent piece. There was still enough going on there to spark my interest, though, and I'll keep going, in the belief that it was just an intro to the larger work. I already have the 2nd one, so I'll probably do as I said and read it sometime in the next couple weeks.

[Wesley Dodds]

Re: The Invisibles. I didn't like the first (or third) series much at all, but I thought the second series was great. Try TPBs 4 and 5.

[dswynne]

I like the fact that the new gods are actually being potrayed as gods, rather than super beings.

-de

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Its remarkable how well Kirby's Fourth World works when mixed with hip-hop culture.

Seeing Granny Goodness & her Female Furies reborn as a pimp and her ho's couldn't have felt more natural...

[Doug Strange]

Re: The Invisibles. I didn't like the first (or third) series much at all, but I thought the second series was great. Try TPBs 4 and 5.I thought I enjoyed Volume 2 the most the first time around, too. Have you reread them much, or at all? Every time I reread them, I like them more. Volume 3's ending is still marred by the art, of course, but my opinion of Volume 1 is leaps and bounds ahead of what it was the first time I read it.

[MWGallaher]

I was just glancing at the issue again, and I'm wondering about that little bit where the psychiatrist is eating a chocolate bar - is that melted chocolate dripping down his chin or something more sinister?
Is it a chocolate bar? In a following panel, it seems to be emitting sparks as the psychiatrist touches it with his finger. It looked to me like a flat "copper-top" battery!

[mdg1]

He was lighting a pipe.

[K'Nort]

Edit: Never mind. Missed a post.

[berk]

And what was going on with all those zeppelins in the sky in the first panel on that page?

[Paul McEnery]

I think I just got tipped about a source for Misty:

www.mistycomic.co.uk

Morgana = Mrs. Webb?

http://www.mistycomic.co.uk/webphotoalbums/issue30/images/12_jpg.jpg

http://www.mistycomic.co.uk/webphotoalbums/issue26/pages/03_jpg.htm

And doesn't this look like Chris Weston?

http://www.mistycomic.co.uk/webphotoalbums/issue6/pages/03_jpg.htm

A nod to Hanna Control?

http://www.mistycomic.co.uk/webphotoalbums/issue6/pages/15_jpg.htm

[berk]

I think I just got tipped about a source for Misty:

www.mistycomic.co.uk

Morgana = Mrs. Webb?

http://www.mistycomic.co.uk/webphotoalbums/issue30/images/12_jpg.jpg

http://www.mistycomic.co.uk/webphotoalbums/issue26/pages/03_jpg.htm

And doesn't this look like Chris Weston?

http://www.mistycomic.co.uk/webphotoalbums/issue6/pages/03_jpg.htm

A nod to Hanna Control?

http://www.mistycomic.co.uk/webphotoalbums/issue6/pages/15_jpg.htm Wow. Very nice. Doesn't appear to be much doubt about the resemblances. I like the artwork. How cool that this even existed. Just shows that Western comics creators interested in writing for readerships other than the typical male superhero fan don't have to llook exclusively to Manga for inspiration.

[Desaad]

Hmm, who could the Psychiatrist represent?

I think Glorious Godfrey is as good a guess as any -- he was always about messing with people's minds using propoganda and subtle mind/soul influencing powers.

[Paul McEnery]

Hmm, who could the Psychiatrist represent?

I think Glorious Godfrey is as good a guess as any -- he was always about messing with people's minds using propoganda and subtle mind/soul influencing powers.
Or could it be...

Desaad?!?

[Patience]

Or could it be...

Desaad?!?

I think he looks more like Desaad than Godfrey, actually...

[MWGallaher]

He was lighting a pipe.
Ah, so he is...the psychiatrist is lighting a pipe.
Still, if that was supposed to be a chocolate bar the psych was eating on the previous page, I can state with confidence that Pascual Ferry doesn't know how to draw chocolate bars. Maybe some varieties are brittle enough to break apart like that, *and* still have liquid centers, but do they come in shiny, unmarked gold packages that slight smoothly off the bar, without leaving a single wrinkle or a crumpled end where the package was opened?

[Doug Strange]

The psychiatrist is definitely a New God in disguise. He's got square glasses.

Something no one has mentioned before...does this fit in with that old early 90's DeMatteis "Mr. Miracle" book? Doesn't Shilo know all about the New Gods at this point?

It certainly doesn't fit with "Last Laugh," thank goodness.

[dswynne]

I'm not sure, but I think that the psychiatrist is Darkside...

-De

[mdg1]

Hmm, who could the Psychiatrist represent?


Doctor Bedlam?

[Joe Rice]

Doctor Bedlam?

Is that the guy who could make duplicates of himself? That guy had "hair" or something that only Kirby could draw that was in the shape of the psychiatrist, if I'm not mistaken.

[Michael Painter]

You know at first I thought the psychiatrist was Highfather because of how wise he looked, but now I wouldn't be surprised if it was Darkseid who's the psychiatrist. The glasses have a Kirby thing going with the squares.

[Joe Rice]

Ladies and gentlemen, Dr. Bedlam.

http://jerome.galica.free.fr/dc%20comics/Jla/ennemis/Apokolips/Doctor%20Bedlam.gif

If that isn't our psychiatrist, I'll be very goddam surprised.

[Bat-Mite]

Is that the guy who could make duplicates of himself?

Not really. What Bedlam could do, at least back in the days when Kirby wrote him, was to inhabit inanimate bodies. Technically, he doesn't have a body, and he is just a bunch of floating energy with lots of Kirby dots that like to enter mannequins.

[berk]

I think there just isn't enough to go on yet to make an educated guess about who the psychiatrist might be ... but that's not gonna stop me from jumping on the Dr.Bedlam . bandwagon. I don't actually agree that he looks at all like Bedlam, but at least he has a beard ... and he's a doctor. Plus, isn't the word 'bedlam' derived from an early (19th century?) psychiatric hospital or insane asylum called the Bethleham or something?

So I looked back at what I think is Dr. Bedlam's first appearance, in Mister Miracle #2, "The Paranoid Pill". The caption reads "Think of a living, thinking being that lives as pure energy. Think of this living being as a personality without a body ..." and we see Dr.Bedlam's energy entering one of his "animates," which speaks, "The mind-force acts! The mind-force enters and fills! and now I emerge." All this emphasis on the "mind-force" as opposed to physical reality might possibly fit in with the attitude expressed by Shilo's psychiatrist when he says, "Demons and Angels are all within us. Their titanic battles are fought over and over again in the churning mud of human hearts and minds."

The psychiatrist's remark also reminded me of a related idea that runs through the new Gods. I think it's expressed through various characters at one time or another, but the one I recall is from the end of New Gods #10, after Orion, Lightray and Forager defeat the attack of "the Bugs" on NYC:

Lightray: Earth lies troubled! ... But free to pursue its own destiny!
Orion: But the Gods are ever near! .. A part of men's lives!! Giant reflections of the good and evil that men generate within themselves!

Bedlam has a little expository speech in that early appearance which is interesting as well:

"And now to my task! -- To subjugate and break the spirit of the young rebel who dared to reject the powers that rule his world -- and the master I serve! The great Darkseid himself!"

which certainly seems to resonate with some of the things that have been going on in the other Seven Soldiers books recently.

[Wesley Dodds]

'bedlam' derived from an early (19th century?) psychiatric hospital or insane asylum called the Bethleham or something?

Yup, bedlam, the hospital of Saint Mary of Bethleham. An interesting connection between Shilo's doctor and a New Gods villain.

[Tom]

Ladies and gentlemen, Dr. Bedlam.

http://jerome.galica.free.fr/dc%20comics/Jla/ennemis/Apokolips/Doctor%20Bedlam.gif

If that isn't our psychiatrist, I'll be very goddam surprised.
Actually, Bedlam's hair looks more like Shiloh's manager's hair - the guy at the party.

And no one else has said this, so I will: a black, fork-tongued Granny Goodness tricked out in thug gear. My god, I love Grant Morrison.

[A.Warlock]

I would say this has been the weakest SSoV #1 so far. Though I know enough DC history to get me through this, it is more bogged down than even Zatanna was. I really like the wheelchair metron guy though.

[MilkManX]

I would say this has been the weakest SSoV #1 so far. Though I know enough DC history to get me through this, it is more bogged down than even Zatanna was. I really like the wheelchair metron guy though.

Maybe. I think it depends on if you know the charicters or not.

If you never read New Gods or Mister Miracle than it may just be confusing. As a huge Kirby fan I can say that Morrison is really steering this title in the right direction.


Damn I was thinking Bedlam also....

[Indigo Al]

Actually, Bedlam's hair looks more like Shiloh's manager's hair - the guy at the party.

And no one else has said this, so I will: a black, fork-tongued Granny Goodness tricked out in thug gear. My god, I love Grant Morrison.

Isn't the forked tongue indicative of the Sheeda queen?

[K'Nort]

Actually, Bedlam's hair looks more like Shiloh's manager's hair - the guy at the party.

I was assuming he was Oberon.

[Tom]

Isn't the forked tongue indicative of the Sheeda queen?
Is it? All I know is, that was Granny Goodness.

[Indigo Al]

Is it? All I know is, that was Granny Goodness.

It seems to me since the Sheeda can pattern themselves across all kinds of myths, legends and fairy tales, they should theoretically be able to f*** with Shiloh's head as the New Gods.

[Paul McEnery]

It seems to me since the Sheeda can pattern themselves across all kinds of myths, legends and fairy tales, they should theoretically be able to f*** with Shiloh's head as the New Gods.
Well that right there is the problem with where Grant's gotten to as a writer. If eveything is a metafiction and we're all fiction suits for one another, then the drama's kinda gotta leak out the sides, doesn't it.

[Bat-Mite]

If everything is a metafiction and we're all fiction suits for one another, then the drama's kinda gotta leak out the sides, doesn't it.


No. You can completely ignore the metafiction aspects, if you want to, and still get a complete story with characters running around their own dramas in all of Morrison stories. The metafiction stuff is just a bonus.

And also, to create drama is not the only function of writing, or even a necessary end of it.

[Tobias March]

So to pick an obvious reference from the cover, Shiloh is the Christ to this 'fallen', world where the Devil/Darkseid won. So......

A Soldier must die, will it be Mr. Miracle?

[CaptMagellan]

A Soldier must die, will it be Mr. Miracle?

"Come one, come all, to the greatest show in the Multiverse... Find out tonight if Mr. Miracle is a good enough escape artist to escape from...DEATH!"

"*and also don't miss the worlds smallest horse*"

[K'Nort]

Is Mr. Miracle a good enough escape artist to escape from...DEATH?

Esp since he's Mr Miracle II.

I want a Scott cameo/flashback!!! With Barda!

[CaptMagellan]

Esp since he's Mr Miracle II.

I want a Scott cameo/flashback!!! With Barda!

I wonder if Morrison will play around with the idea that Shiloh is an 'avatar' of Scott?

Maybe I should just lay off the Nyquil ;)

[berk]

So to pick an obvious reference from the cover, Shiloh is the Christ to this 'fallen', world where the Devil/Darkseid won. So......

A Soldier must die, will it be Mr. Miracle? The first thing that I flashed on when I saw the cover was that Shiloh was upside-down, like St Peter who, asked to be crucified in that position "in humble distinction from his lord." (I might have this wrong, not really up on my Christian mythology).

[Paul McEnery]

The first thing that I flashed on when I saw the cover was that Shiloh was upside-down, like St Peter who, asked to be crucified in that position "in humble distinction from his lord." (I might have this wrong, not really up on my Christian mythology).
Hah! So Peter to Scott's Christ?

The sin here, then, would be self-doubt.

[berk]

delete double post

[berk]

So I was reading that first Dr.Bedlam story, and there's a few more things that might support Joe Rice's suggestion that the psychiatrist was him.

When Bedlam is talking to Scott, he tells him, "My world is of the mind! -- and all the twists and turns that lead it to the Pit!" which seems to fit in the psychiatrist's general attitude.

Also, Bedlam is in the habit of projecting scary images to frighten or intimidate his victims: of "every monster that has haunted every nightmare since time began leaps from the darkness to jolt the fears of the hidden humans trembling in the building." which again seems to fit in with the psychiatrist's statement regarding angels and demons as projections of the human mind.

I hadn't really thought much about Bedlam before whenever I read Kirby's stuff, but glancing through this story, he strikes me as the ultimate Platonist in at least one respect: he takes Plato's body/soul duality to its logical extreme. Dr. Bedlam is all mind and his body is just a disposable machine, an "animate" interchangeable with all others of its kind, lacking all individuality until possessed by Bedlam's "Mind-Force".

Naturally, Kirby makes him a villain.

Maybe Kirby even undermines this Platonic doctrine in the very first appearance of Dr. Bedlam in the story. When his mind-force is taking possession of the animate, the dialogue goes, "The Mind-Force acts! The Mind-Force enters and fills! And now I emerge!" Which might suggest that there is no "I" until the the mind/body disjunction is bridged and the entity made whole.

The entire story might bear closer reading, I'll have to look at it again sometime.

(Please excuse this deviation from Seven Soldiers talk; but since Zatanna #4 isn't listed among next weeks releases, it looks like we might have a bit of a wait for the next installment).

[Paul McEnery]

So I was reading that first Dr.Bedlam story, and there's a few more things that might support Joe Rice's suggestion that the psychiatrist was him.

When Bedlam is talking to Scott, he tells him, "My world is of the mind! -- and all the twists and turns that lead it to the Pit!" which seems to fit in the psychiatrist's general attitude.

Also, Bedlam is in the habit of projecting scary images to frighten or intimidate his victims: of "every monster that has haunted every nightmare since time began leaps from the darkness to jolt the fears of the hidden humans trembling in the building." which again seems to fit in with the psychiatrist's statement regarding angels and demons as projections of the human mind.

I hadn't really thought much about Bedlam before whenever I read Kirby's stuff, but glancing through this story, he strikes me as the ultimate Platonist in at least one respect: he takes Plato's body/soul duality to its logical extreme. Dr. Bedlam is all mind and his body is just a disposable machine, an "animate" interchangeable with all others of its kind, lacking all individuality until possessed by Bedlam's "Mind-Force".

Naturally, Kirby makes him a villain.

Maybe Kirby even undermines this Platonic doctrine in the very first appearance of Dr. Bedlam in the story. When his mind-force is taking possession of the animate, the dialogue goes, "The Mind-Force acts! The Mind-Force enters and fills! And now I emerge!" Which might suggest that there is no "I" until the the mind/body disjunction is bridged and the entity made whole.

The entire story might bear closer reading, I'll have to look at it again sometime.

(Please excuse this deviation from Seven Soldiers talk; but since Zatanna #4 isn't listed among next weeks releases, it looks like we might have a bit of a wait for the next installment).
Thinking about it, we've got a recapitulation of the Invisibles story: initiation. In each case here, the soldier is initiated by overcoming self-doubt, guilt or in Klarion's case, selfishness.

[berk]

Thinking about it, we've got a recapitulation of the Invisibles story: initiation. In each case here, the soldier is initiated by overcoming self-doubt, guilt or in Klarion's case, selfishness. I wonder if we can see something in common among these seemingly different obstacles the soldiers have to overcome. If we look at the idea of self-doubt: even though it involves the subject in a self-deprecation of his/her abilites or worthiness (I'm not good enough. I'm not worthy.") can we perhaps see, from one viewpoint, an unhealthy concern with the self? ("I'm not worthy. I'm not good enough"). And this kind of focusing on the self lead to results similar to those following from the more straightforward case of pure selfishness: the task isn't performed.

In a similar paradox, St Peter's seeming humility and selflessness in asking to be crucified upside- down ("I'm not worthy to be killed in exactly the same way as my Lord Jesus Christ") might mask a hidden pride in the self ("I'm the only martyr to recognise that unworthiness and act upon it, the only one to display real humility", etc,etc).

Could we say then that one aspect of the initiation is to move beyond the self, or at least the self we've constructed for our- er, selves? Not to reject the idea of a self, but to move to a more heathly conception of it perhaps; one that doesn't conduce to the sort of self-obsession that leads to inertia and the shirking of necessary tasks.

[CaptMagellan]

I don't see this so much similar to The Invisibles except for how both of them follow certain mythic structures (ie, Campbell's "The Heros Journey").

[berk]

No. You can completely ignore the metafiction aspects, if you want to, and still get a complete story with characters running around their own dramas in all of Morrison stories. The metafiction stuff is just a bonus. Sure. But if the symbolic and metafictional aspects are clumsily implemented or too obvious or obtrusive they can get in the way of losing oneself in the narrative. If the reader is constantly having their attention drawn to the fact that all the characters running around are simple constructs whose "deeper purpose" is to enable to writer to make his/her clever metafictional comments, it tends to drain the life out of the story asstory.

I just re-read the first Invisibles trade, and in Arcadia Part I the opening scene has King Mob in the audience explains the story to KM & then goes on to say "This is the work of the Dalang. Very clever man, very skilled. He makes the voices and moves the puppets. He directs the Gamelan musicians. His job is to make us laugh and cry. The Dalang is more than a puppeteer. His skill makes us believe that we see a war between two great armies, but there is no war. There is only the Dalang."

In The Invisibles, I think this is primarily a comment on the action with the story and thus on life itself, but it also makes a metafictional comment we can apply to our discussion here. If the writer is only a puppeteer, if his puppeteering is too obvious, then he'll fail in his primary task - "to make us laugh and cry." In other words, if the writer is clumsy in his work his characters will appear as lifeless cut-outs, puppets, and the manipulating hand of the puppeteer is so obvious that the reader doesn't become engaged in the story. Or, " If everything is a metafiction and we're all fiction suits for one another, then the drama's kinda gotta leak out the sides."

And also, to create drama is not the only function of writing, or even a necessary end of it. Of course. But it's pretty apparent that the reader is intended to find drama in Seven Soldiers at the narrative level; to be engaged with the story, with the characters, to care what happens to them and what they do, to be caught up in the drama of the story in which they (hopefully) come to life for us.

[Bat-Mite]

Are they obvious and obtrusive in this case?

But it's pretty apparent that the reader is intended to find drama in Seven Soldiers

That was a side-not not related to the specific case of Seven Soldiers, but to writing in general.

[berk]

Are they obvious and obtrusive in this case? In Seven Soldiers? No, I don't believe so. I think he's doing a great job on the series. I was just arguing in general terms. I must have misunderstood you - thought you were saying that it didn't really matter because there's no need for a story to involve the reader.

But there is a risk being run in that, if everything can stand in for everything else, where does that leave us? If anything can mean anything, if everything has every meaning, then nothing has any meaning.

On the other hand, that might not be a bad thing, in one sense: it might get us past this obsession with "meaning" (I'm one of the worst offenders, myself). Which brings us back to enjoying the story, the drama, on its own terms.

Don't mind me, I have a tendancy to go off on these tangents which often have only a marginal connection to what everyone else is talking about.

[Bat-Mite]

I was just arguing in general terms. I must have misunderstood you

Yeah, I actually thought I should have worded it better. I don't think Morrison's writing is suffering in any way because there is a lot of meta-stuff in the text, since he can still put a solid story to contain it.

[K'Nort]

Is it really possible to ignore the metafiction in Morrison books once you're familiar with Morrison? You pick it up knowing it will be in there.

Not a complaint, by the way.

[berk]

Is it really possible to ignore the metafiction in Morrison books once you're familiar with Morrison? You pick it up knowing it will be in there.

Not a complaint, by the way. That's really part of what makes this whole question interesting. Although I think Morrison's writing on Seven Soldiers is as good as one could ask, if he's become so well known for this aspect of his work, it does begin to become obvious, no matter how well-crafted an individual story is, which leads to the problems I talked about above. I haven't read all that much Morrison myself, so it hasn't bothered me as much as it might have otherwise.

[Bat-Mite]

I have read a lot of Morrison's work, but I love to dive in and search for meta-text in there. But I don't find it distracting at all from the actual story. I have no problem taking them both in their separate ways.

[Bat-Mite]

Also, I think I know where the main plot of Seven Soldiers comes from.

http://images.art.com/images/PRODUCTS/Regular/10105000/10105339.jpg

Or if you prefer the American version...

http://www.musicweb-international.com/film/2004/May04/magnificent_seven.jpg

Village gets pillaged by bandits every once in a while until they get seven guys to kick the living crap out of them.

Village = Earth.
Samurai/Cowboys = Superheroes.
Bandits = Faeries from the land of the vampire sun.

AHA!

[berk]

Maybe the earliest ever team of seven heroes was the "Seven Against Thebes" of ancient Greek myth and legend ...

[CaptMagellan]

Nah... Had to have been "Seven Neanderthals Gathering against the Dark Bison of Doom."

With the seven holy artifacts: charcoal hardened spear, fire starter, those two rocks that work really well as a mortar and pestle, berry bush for cave art ink, flint rock for skinning game, sacred mammoth femur of smiting, and Dire Wolf headdress.

Gee... I suddenly have the urge to rent "Quest for Fire." (but I'm sure that urge will pass quickly).

[Shellhead]

I'm finally caught up with this series, at least for the moment. It will take me longer to catch up with this thread, so in the mean time, I just wanted to give my impression of this series so far.

In general, this is an exciting and interesting approach to storytelling, and I am enjoying the various connections between these characters and their stories, as well as the overall arc. As always, Morrison delights me with his furious flow of weird and intelligent ideas, although the staccato pace of his dialogue sometimes feels a little forced and unnatural, like the Gilmore Girls only weirder. Many of his throwaway lines (like "clay is the missing link between organic and inorganic substances") would be sufficient material for another writer's decompressed six-issue story arc.

Specific characters:

The Shining Knight: Wow! The artwork was breath-taking, and the story was riveting. In an odd coincidence, I've been enjoying this fairly new boardgame lately, Darkness Over Camelot, so the arthurian stuff has been on my mind anyway. Justin(e) seems like the Soldier most likely to die, she has a reckless disregard for her own safety and is cut off from the world she knew, but it could be fun to see her interact more with the modern DCU.

The Manhatten Guardian: The artwork was just so-so, but I liked this character more than the Shining Knight or Klarion. I can relate to the stress that unemployment can put on a relationship, and how that can drive someone to take an unpleasant job. One sequence that I especially enjoyed was the odd confrontation at the shack in Slaughter Swamp, and how it leap-frogged ahead in time in such a disturbing manner. I had to read the page twice to understand what happened to the asian girl, and then I was left wondering if that magic cabinet he got shoved into was the same as Zatanna's... I need to do some housecleaning so I can find all of these Seven Soldiers issues and re-read them in one sitting.

Klarion: I don't like Klarion much, and the artwork has a very extreme style that isn't my usual taste. But I can't look away, the results are fascinating and somehow appealing... I want more.

Zatanna: It's comforting to see one of these characters as I have always known her, only with more personality and character development than ever before. And while Zatanna never struck me as the type to end up with a sidekick, I do like this sidekick, even though they are sure to split up by the end of this series, given the revelations of issue #3. It was cool to see Zatanna win the day without her powers, and it was great to see Justine's pegasus had survived that brutal fight in the pages of the Shining Knight. The Sook artwork was nice, but I was already familiar with his work on the Spectre.

Mister Miracle: While I was never a big fan of the New Gods, I did like Mister Miracle. But this isn't Scott Free, it's some new guy. He may have an interesting personality, but it's a little early to be sure. Escaping from a black hole was a great idea, it immediately trumped everything that Scott ever accomplished, and led to that interesting meeting with Metron. Say, where did this Mister Miracle ever find a Mother Box? I didn't love the artwork, but it was effective in several places.

I know that it's not the point of this series, but someday I would like to see the surviving Soldiers meet up someday. Failing that, I hope that at least a couple of them find a lasting place in the DCU, in the works of other writers.

[Alistair]

"But this isn't Scott Free, it's some new guy."

Shilo's not a new character - he's been around for about 15 years at least. He was even Mister Miracle for a while before.

[Aaron King]

Just a quick comment on the "One must die" thing that might've been mentioned. The original JLA/JSA/Seven Soldiers crossover also stated that one of the Soldiers was dead, and then we found out it was a sidekick. Now, each character so far has been presented to us with a sidekick: Justin/Horsefeather, Klarion/Teekl, Guardian/Baby Brain, Zatanna/Misty, and now Mr. Miracle/(Metron? Manager?). This is potentially setting us up with two teams of seven that the Sheeda have to break apart to prevent the prophecy.

And remember, Baby Brain was talking about a team of seven that wasn't really a team. Even less than our main seven soldiers, the sidekicks are not much of a team.

[CaptMagellan]

[tantrum mode]

I DON'T WANT to wait ANOTHER WEEK for the next issue. I DON'T WANNA. GIMME. GIMME NOW you dam