SEVEN SOLDIERS: Speculation & Spoilers [Archive] - Page 3

Paul McEnery

05-05-2005, 01:11 PM

My initial impressions were:

the action sequence on the first 4 or 5 pages was just a waste of space; nothing wrong with action, btut the impact could have been just as great, probably better, in fewer pages, never mind the illogicalities already pointed out.

The irritating thing is all the freaking ads, breaking up the layout. I love the way Bianchi took everything diagonal for the action -- which layout should be bleeding across the spread -- and then comes down with the opposite diagonal as things cool down.

The action sequence demonstrates two things.

1) We now know the extent of Justin's magical butchness.
2) We've seen him be a moany bastard -- this is counterpoint.

anyone notice the script on the billboard just after that? "Cup of Blood: A Spy, A Mermaid, and a Treasure As Old As Time Itself." I think the key phrase is 'Cup of Blood,' which evokes the Holy Grail, which connects to the Cauldron from Shining Knight #1. Lots of room for speculation here regarding the nature of the Grail, the Grail Quest, and its Celtic antecedants (i.e. the Daghda's cauldron).

I can't believe I missed that. But what's up with the mermaid?

"Guilt: Mood 7 Mind Destroyer." The first thing that popped into my head when this 'character' (more an allegorical figure, really) appeared, was Spenser's Faerie Queen. Remember when the Red Cross Knight faced 'Despair'? (I'm gonna have to look backat the actual book to see if I;m making any sense; it's been a long time since I read Faerie Queen).

Sent me back to The Invisibles, where Papa Skat sends a demond of guilt to take out Tom.

The undying Mob-boss is on the side of the angels. The only thing I dislike about this is that the story continues to be presented in terms of angels (Ystin/Guardian/Zatanna/etc) and devils (the Sheeda). But it's early days yet.

Not angels, but Messiah figures. And seven parts of a Messiah figure, at that. I'm thinking they represent the seven chakras/loa. From the top:

7) Crown/Sea-Intuition/Agwe -- Justin
6) Brain/Mind-Judgement/Baron Samedi -- Spawn of Frankenstein?
5) Throat/Crossroads-Communication/Legba -- Zatanna
4) Heart/Sky-Compassion/Dambhallah -- Mister Miracle?
3) Belly/Fire-Aggression/Ogun -- Guardian
2) Groin/ Water-Desire/Erzulie -- Bulleteer?
1) Root/Fields-Responsibility/Azacca -- Klarion

Two things worth noting. Both the throat and root chakras are associated with either Ganesha or an Elephant. They are the places of Magic (as is the Intuition, of course, although the Hindu presentation leaps straight to oneness without considering intuition, so no animals or gods). Klarion gets the bottom one (hence the Grundies in the field, and coming up from the underworld), and Zatanna steg eht taorht -- hctan.

of course, it's all thrown off a bit since, being soldiers, they're all in the mode of Chakra 3 -- Ogun the Warrior.

The old man sitting on the bench next to Ystin/Justin - anyone we know?
Looks like one of the Seven Old Gits to me. What's with Zatarra's flaming hat?

Sandy Hausler

05-05-2005, 01:19 PM

I just read #1 (yeah, I know, a week late). It seems to me that the entire Seven Soldiers story is kind of creative, but ultimately cold and sterile. I can't really care about any of the characters, not Klarion, not even Zatanna. What do you guys think? (Yes, I know this thread is not specifically about Klarion.<g>)

Sandy Hausler

Mr. Bungle

05-05-2005, 01:53 PM

I think you're wrong. ;)

Paul McEnery

05-05-2005, 02:04 PM

I direct your attention to the Seven Soldiers Maxi Pad, er, Megathread.

berk

05-05-2005, 04:32 PM

Shem the Penman said:
The magical revolving castle, under various names, was a frequent feature of Celtic mythology -- and the story of only seven knights returning from the revolving castle is taken from Celtic poetry as well. http://www.mythiccrossroads.com/annwn.htm Well, well - look who's name pops up in that poem: Gwydion. Apparently he was once a prisoner in Caer Sidi, or Castle Revolving. And Caer Sidi is also translated as 'Castle of the Sidhe.' Interesting, interesting. This appears to be the source from which one of Morrison's Seven Unknown Men were quoting on the last page of Seven Soldiers #0. Great link, Shem, thanks.

Paul McEnery said:
But what's up with the mermaid?
Nothing obvious comes to mind. There are lots of stories in Celtic myth about women who have been enchanted into one animal form or another. I just read one in the Tales of the Elders of Ireland about a woman who'd been changed into a sort of mermaid. I'll see if I can find it and have another look at it. I wonder if the actress's name Stellamaris, is significant. Stella Maris, 'Star of the Sea' - one of the Virgin Mary's titles, used when sailers pray to her for safe passage.

Paul McEnery said:
Not angels, but Messiah figures. And seven parts of a Messiah figure, at that. I'm thinking they represent the seven chakras/loa. Yeah, I just meant that so far we still have a good vs evil scenario. I don't know much about the chakras and the loas. Very interesting stuff. The Messiah concept might connect with the 'Cup of Blood' since the Grail was supposed to be the vessel in which Christ's blood was caught at the crucifixion.

Speaking of the Grail, maybe we should start thinking about the basic elements of the Grail Legend: are we going to see a Fisher King analogue? Have we already? the Mob boss might be a possibility, but I don't think he had any debilitating injury or illness did he? However, we might have one of the other Grail concepts, the Wasteland, considering Morrison's language on the last few pages (the Morrigu's prophecy - trees with no fruit, etc) and how desolate contemporary LA looks to Justin. Of course, in the Grail legend the two are connected; the wasteland won't be restored to life until the Fisher King is healed, which is the task for the hero.

Paul McEnery said:
What's with Zatarra's flaming hat? After all this Grail talk, it strikes me that Zatarra's hat might be seen as another riff on that theme. Sitting upside-down, it looks like a vessel, and it actually does function as a kind of 'cauldron of plenty' for Zatarra, since he can stick his hand in there and draw out anything he wants, it seems.

I think I had something else to say, but my mind's a blank now. Maybe it'll come back to me later.

Sandy Hausler

05-06-2005, 05:57 AM

I think you're wrong. ;)

Well, you could be right (or wrong).<g>

Sandy Hausler

Tobias March

05-11-2005, 11:58 AM

After all this Grail talk, it strikes me that Zatarra's hat might be seen as another riff on that theme. Sitting upside-down, it looks like a vessel, and it actually does function as a kind of 'cauldron of plenty' for Zatarra, since he can stick his hand in there and draw out anything he wants, it seems.

I think I had something else to say, but my mind's a blank now. Maybe it'll come back to me later.

Yikes peoples....this thread needed a bump!

But on the above, my instant thought was that somehow (I am a little confused about the sequence at the end - I have only read it the once though) the old man was a ressurected Zatarra himself! But yes, it appears more likely that it is one of the Seven Men, though perhaps (and I know Grant has said none of the 'soldiers', will meet) what with the last line, it is a character connected to Zatanna who will step off that bus?

Reptisaurus!

05-11-2005, 12:33 PM

"Guilt: Mood 7 Mind Destroyer." The first thing that popped into my head when this 'character' (more an allegorical figure, really) appeared, was Spenser's Faerie Queen. Remember when the Red Cross Knight faced 'Despair'? (I'm gonna have to look backat the actual book to see if I;m making any sense; it's been a long time since I read Faerie Queen).

Good call, here. Actually Most of the antagonists in the Faerie Queene (Which, remember, was kind of like a guide to living a virtuous life) were corpereal-type embodiments of metaphorical concepts. Braggadochio, Furor... aaaand so on.

And Shining Knight Two was really, really good. So good, in fact, that the first issue felt a tad superfluous, like a tit on a boar-hog.

Paul Newell

05-11-2005, 06:28 PM

Yikes peoples....this thread needed a bump!

Heh. You know....This thread gets more posts when its unstickied? ;)

berk

05-11-2005, 08:24 PM

Tobias March said:
But on the above, my instant thought was that somehow (I am a little confused about the sequence at the end - I have only read it the once though) the old man was a ressurected Zatarra himself! But yes, it appears more likely that it is one of the Seven Men, though perhaps (and I know Grant has said none of the 'soldiers', will meet) what with the last line, it is a character connected to Zatanna who will step off that bus? Is there any way he could be both? I don't know anything about Zatarra other than what I saw in Zatanna #1.

Mark Andrew: I don't think Morrison's drawing any parallels between Seven Soldiers and the Faerie Queene; but the Mood 7 Mind Destroyer did remind me of Despayre form Spenser's poem. One thing I didn't think of before: Why was he called the "Mood 7" Mind Destroyer? Is there a connection here to the Seven Deadly Sins? The only one despair could be vaguely related to would be sloth, and that' would be a bit iof a stretch. What if we look at it from the other direction: could despair, guilt, self-recrimination, etc be the negation of one of the Seven Virtues - maybe Hope or Fortitude? I notice that Paul McEnery matched Justin with Chakra 7 - could there be a connection here? I don't know enough about the Chakras to have an opinion (Help, Paul). But I do feel that Morrison probably named this allegorical figure the "Mood 7" Mind Destroyer, as opposed to Mood 3 or 12 or no number at all, for a reason.

Another thing I wanted to mention, just in case all this speculation is making people roll their eyes: speaking for myself, this is just a lot of thinking out loud. I don't have any idea what the series is really about or if any of these associations or concepts have any actual significance for Morrison's themes. For one thing, the series isn't finished yet. I wouldn't try to make any sort of semi-serious assessment of what the series "means" until it was complete; and even then I might be totally wrong. At best I'd only be assessing what it meant for me. So don't take any of this speculation too seriously. It's just a fun game to play as we watch the series unfold.

EDIT: I just realised that last statement could be taken the wrong way: I was talking about myself, and not trying to cast aspersions on anyone else. "Don't take MY speculations too seriously." Not that I have any reason to think anyone would, of course. I just didn't want to sound as if I think I've got everything all figured out. I'm just playing with whatever associations or ideas spring to mind as I read the book. And I like it that Morrison's style is conducive to playing those sorts of games.

Reptisaurus!

05-13-2005, 02:04 AM

I notice that Paul McEnery matched Justin with Chakra 7 - could there be a connection here? I don't know enough about the Chakras to have an opinion (Help, Paul). But I do feel that Morrison probably named this allegorical figure the "Mood 7" Mind Destroyer, as opposed to Mood 3 or 12 or no number at all, for a reason.

Well, y'know the number Seven is kind of themactically-linked with the series, right? I wouldn't be too surprised if there was some funky Numerology with al the "7"s (God's Number, right? As opposed to 6, Satan's number. )

So, I was doodling around with a Marvel version of Seven Soldiers, (Plus I feel there's a dearth of good Blue Diamond, Kid Colt: Outlaw, and Stegron the Dinosaur man related fan-fiction) and I was kind of playing with the idea Zoroastrianism ideas of the world as a battleground between Good and Evil. And THAT got me wondering if Morrison isn't doing the same thing, kinda... The "seven" (God) vs. the multitudes. (All of which ties into the individual vs. small group vs. society-in-general theme which Morrison's so fond.)

Anyway: Found this on some guy's Livejournal (http://www.livejournal.com/users/calamityjon/665484.html), and thought it was cool.

Anywez, with all this in mind, I was pretty excited to hear about Morrison's taking the reins of a new series. I had my reasonable hopes that the roster would remain unchanged - after all, three of the members (SSK, Stripesy and Crimson Avenger) have lackluster modern incarnations which could certainly use the Morrison touch, two others (Green Arrow and Speedy) were recently revived with much to-do, while another (Shining Knight) is just sitting around and the last (Vigilante) is a blank slate just waiting for a new interpretation.

Wasn't particularly surprised to find that he'd changed the roster, though, with the exception of the Shining Knight. I'm sure it'll still be good, even if the other half-dozen of the team now consists of Zatanna, Klarion the Witch Boy (wha-?), Mister Miracle, The Guardian (man, Kirby-heavy team. Good), The Bulleteer (new character) and The Frankenstein Monster. I reiterate, what??

The roster isn't exactly a disappointment, as I'm sure Morrison's going to write one of his traditionally awesome stories, even if I have trouble imagining the Frankenstein Monster and Klarion the Witch Boy raising their arms alongside Zatanna and declaring "FOR VICTORY!" Still, I honestly have to say - for the first time in my life - that I think Morrison totally missed the boat.

The point of the Seven Soldiers is that they are, essentially, Soldiers of Fortune (but who are in it for the justness of the cause rather than the cash munny, thus "Victory"), and unlike DC's OTHER Golden Age assembly, they are not super-heroes. Technological gimmicks and enchanted armor aside, each of the Seven Soldiers is essentially an adventurer with a particular and unique (to the group) set of martial skills. The Shining Knight is the swordsman, Vigilante is the gunslinger, Crimson Avenger and his sidekick Wing are martial artists, Star-Spangled Kid is a Marquis of Queensbury boxer and prep school judomaster, Stripesy is an East-End brawler, and Green Arrow and Speedy are, naturally, masters of underwater hopkaido and biscuit baking.

(And yeah, I know, the real point of the team is that, as with the JSA, the editors at DC collected a bunch of fairly popular characters who'd never had their own title and assembled them in a team book in order to make a little cash. I know. I know, you cynical fuckers. I'm talking subconscious theme ...)

So anyway, the point is that they compliment each others' skills and are thematically aligned in motivation. Grant's SSoV are ... well, weirdos and freaks, which is neat, but it's feeling a little like the old "Why did they buy the movie rights if they're not going to stick to the book's story" kind of situation. I would've preferred it either the other way (modern interpretations of the original roster) or at least a new Seven Soldiers whose structure resembled the original team's.

And yeah, because I hate it when you guys nerd out on me, I do indeed know that this is technically the THIRD SSoV roster, owing to Mark Waid's lame-ass SSoV team from Silver Age WHICH ALSO MISSED THE BOAT. Putting a member of the Blackhawks on a team that isn't the Blackhawks is just retarded. Almost "Forgotten Heroes" retarded, but not quite.

berk

05-13-2005, 05:20 PM

I didn't even know there was an original Seven Soldiers. You mean the old team the cowboy guy talked about in #0 was an actual comic once?

I've been trying to match up the Seven Virtues with the Seven Soldiers, but not getting too far - for example, Justin/Ystin's name might suggest the Virtue of Justice, but the Mood 7 Mind Destroyer seems more like an attack on Fortitude (or perhaps Diligence, if you go with the "remedial" Virtues, the ones designed to correspond to the Seven Deadly Sins). And Guardian might be a btter match for Justice anyway. So I'm beginning to think that's a dead end.

But good point about seven being a very special number. The good vs evil scenario does seem to fit what we've seen so far, although I'm still hoping for something a little more interesting on that score.

Shem the Penman

05-13-2005, 05:38 PM

Yeah, the original SSoV date back to the 40s. Their continuity is a bit problematic, since the Golden Age Green Arrow and Speedy were erased by the Crisis, leaving them two men short. Roy Thomas, in his never-ending battle to iron out Golden Age continuity, plugged various combinations of characters into their place, but none of 'em ever seemed to stick. (I think the current "official" explanation is that the Spider and the Crimson Avenger's sidekick, Wing, were numbers 6 and 7).

That said, while I sympathize with the sentiments expressed, I don't think it's fair to compare what Morrison's doing to the earlier versions of the Soldiers; anyone who came into this thinking Morrison was going to do nothing more than slap a new coat of paint on an old idea was sadly misinformed.

dswynne

05-13-2005, 05:58 PM

berk

05-13-2005, 08:18 PM

dswynne said:
Sometimes, it's what they DON'T DO that fulfills the criteria... You mean, for example, that Zatanna failed to exercise Prudence when she didn't bother purifying herself the way she was supposed to 3 days before the ritual? Or maybe Jake didn't exercise Temperance [EDIT: or, more obviously, Justice] when he shot that 13 year old kid without waiting to find out if he was the drug dealer who killed his partner? Or were you thinking of something else altogether?

I was toying with the idea that, if somehow Temperance. Prudence, Fortitude and Justice, the four Cardinal Virtues, could be matched up with the four characters we've seen so far - Klarion, Zatanna, Guardian, & Knight - that would leave the three Christian Virtues, Faith, Hope and Charity, for the 3 characters we've yet to see. Hope might be a good match for the original Mister Miracle, growing up on Apokolips, for example, although this might not be the case with the new character.

Reptisaurus!

05-14-2005, 01:02 AM

I didn't even know there was an original Seven Soldiers. You mean the old team the cowboy guy talked about in #0 was an actual comic once?

Yeah, briefly. If you get a chance, check out th' Crisis on Multiple Earths" Volume Three trade, which reprints the first Silver Age appearance of the Soldiers from JLA 100. Good stuff by Len Wein 'n Dick Dillin.

berk

05-15-2005, 08:49 PM

So, is Guardian #2 coming out this Wednesday like I thought it was supposed to? I don't see it listed amongst all the DC books for this week.

EDIT: Never mind. It is listed now, for May 18th.

Reptisaurus!

05-15-2005, 09:09 PM

So. Hey. Reread Shining Knight. Did Camelot devolve into Klarion-land, or what?

berk

05-15-2005, 09:23 PM

Mark Andrew said:
So. Hey. Reread Shining Knight. Did Camelot devolve into Klarion-land, or what? Are you thinking of the line where the M7MD tells Justin that his dead comrades were dragged out of their graves and forced to work as slaves? I thought it might just indicate that this is some kind of standard operating procedure for the bad guys, and thus more evidence that the Submissionaries were indeed working for the Sheeda. None of which, of course, is incompatible with your suggestion. Are there any other story elements that could support the idea, have you noticed?

Quasar

05-16-2005, 06:53 AM

EDITfgnggbggg

Drifter

05-16-2005, 04:31 PM

Joe Grendel

05-16-2005, 04:42 PM

As I understand it, the premise of "7 Soldiers" is that they're a team that's not a team -- not even aware of each other for the most part, I think. In any case, "Zatanna" stands alone, and yeah, the art is great.

noodleboy

05-16-2005, 05:10 PM

Yep, it's a stand alone series and I would suggest you pick it up, I thought it was fantastic.

Karl J. Barnes

05-16-2005, 05:14 PM

As Joe stated, the mini-series are stand alones that effect each other peripherally.

The Crime Dentist

05-16-2005, 05:18 PM

Nah. The only tie-in is that the Gimmix character appeared in Seven Soldiers #0. But really, the other series are recommended - they're all really good; better than the Crisis stuff, imo. And it's kinda neat to see how they effect one another without actually crossing over.

Reptisaurus!

05-16-2005, 09:12 PM

Ahoy,
Saw this issue sitting on the stand in my comic shop, I've always been kinda curiouse about Zatanna and the art looks really great. My questions is though, would I have to read all the other mini-series (seven soldiers) to understand whats going on in the Zatanna mini? Thought Id ask before I bought it and added it to my monthly list (which is HUGE as it is :( ....)
Thanx ahead of time!

Supposedly you can read all seven series seperately.

So far I can't see how it would be a problem to JUST read Zatanna, or Shining Knight, or Klarion. There hasn't been much crossover at all, really.

Are you thinking of the line where the M7MD tells Justin that his dead comrades were dragged out of their graves and forced to work as slaves?

Yeah. That's all I got... But we know the series are gonna tie together somehow in the future, right? And Klarion-land (Whatever it's called) did have a kind of Castles 'n Turrets look.

Paul McEnery

05-16-2005, 11:01 PM

7) Crown/Sea-Intuition/Agwe -- Justin
6) Brain/Mind-Judgement/Baron Samedi -- Spawn of Frankenstein?
5) Throat/Crossroads-Communication/Legba -- Zatanna
4) Heart/Sky-Compassion/Dambhallah -- Mister Miracle?
3) Belly/Fire-Aggression/Ogun -- Guardian
2) Groin/ Water-Desire/Erzulie -- Bulleteer?
1) Root/Fields-Responsibility/Azacca -- Klarion

My Crowleyian tentative association of Chakras and Sins/Virtues:

7) Jealousy/Generosity (
6) Pride/Humility
5) Envy/Love (Charity)
4) Sloth/Zeal
3) Anger/Kindness
2) Lust/Self-Control
1) Gluttony/Faith and Temperance

I think I may have been working from a different playlist. Let me get back to you on this. (Fixing it now.)

No, okay, wait. Maybe we put Zatanna in the lust category (Lust/Prudence); and maybe Justin in Pride/Humility. And Guardian in Sloth/Zeal (Sloth = depression). Then again, Klarion's very Pride, too. Hmm.

Damn. After research, the virtues are way more messy than the sins. Then again, the virtues were a bodge up after the fact, so that's no surprise.

Reptisaurus!

05-16-2005, 11:38 PM

berk

05-16-2005, 11:39 PM

Yeah, I haven't been able to come up with a good fit so far, so I'm thinking the Seven Virtues/Deadly Sins might not be the most rewarding avenue of speculation. (not surprising that it;s difficult to match things up sometimes; they even had to invent an entire new set of "remedial" virtues to correspond exactly with the sins, because the old set didn't).

On the other hand, if Klarion #2 gives us an obvious one to associate with that character, we might be able to tinker some more, since right now the proble with this idea seems to be that there are too many possibilities for some characters but no real convincing ones for Klarion.

Just to muddy the waters a little more, here's a list I found in theChevalier/Gheerbant Dictionary of Symbols, at the end of the entry for "Seven":

In folk stories and legends the number would seem to express the seven stages of matter, the seven degrees of awareness and the seven stages of evolution:

awareness of the physical body: cravings satisfied simply and brutally
awareness of the emotions; impulses become more complex through feeling and imagination
awareness of intellect; the individual classifies, arranges and reasons
awareness of intuition; relationship with the unconscious becomes apparent
awareness of spirituality; detachment from worldly things
awareness of will; thought is transmitted into action
awareness of life; directing action towards eternal life and salvation.
Not sure what their source for this was, though. However, if we re-arrange the order, there seems to be some correspondance with your list of the Chakras. Come to think of it, I see that you matched Justin with Chakra 7, which reminds me again that his antagonist last issue was called the Mood 7 Mind Destroyer; and I see as well that Chakra 7 is associated with the sea - maybe Stella Maris and the mermaid might have some significance here after all?

Paul McEnery

05-17-2005, 12:57 AM

berk

05-17-2005, 08:21 AM

Stella Maris is, of course, the Cosmic Serpent. Ah, I never made that connection. I was blocked because I usually think of the serpent as a male symbol; but of course Tiamat shows that this wasn't always the case. And of course serpents are often associated in a positive way with female divinities like Athena, one of Mary's precursors. The whole Biblical theme of putting enmity between the serpents seed and the woman's seed may have been no more than a deliberate reversal of earlier stories such as the cosmogonic myth of Eurynome (one of my favourite creation myths).

hondobrode

05-18-2005, 08:29 AM

(Indicdentall, and somewhat relevantly, I'm fairly sure the Soldiers were originally supposed to be analouges for Marvel's Avengers.)

Guardian = Captain America
Zee = Scarlet Witch
Spider = Hawkeye
Demon (Who got ditched somewhere along the way) = Thor
Shining Knight = Black Knight

I'm not following you here. The original SSoV were Golden Age heroes and Stan assembled his team in the early Silver Age.

I do see the character parallels tho.

These series are all great and I can't wait to see how Morrison brings it all together. I'm pretty sure this will continue into an ongoing. It seems to be doing pretty well and getting a lot of good press. Sure, it's not getting as much attention because of the Crisis sequel, but towards the end I think there will be a connection that shows how this version of the SSoV and the original (complete with the original Shining Knight - one of those sorely underused characters kind of like Marvel's Black Knight) have linkage, exist in the DCU and don't necessarily invalidate or contradict each other.

It's a great time to be a DC fan.

Shem the Penman

05-18-2005, 01:29 PM

So SK #2 was centered around guilt, while Guardian #2 is centered around greed. I wonder if it's an intentional pattern, or merely a coincidence?

Jamie

05-18-2005, 07:22 PM

So SK #2 was centered around guilt, while Guardian #2 is centered around greed. I wonder if it's an intentional pattern, or merely a coincidence?

I doubt it's a coincidence, although it may not be a pattern we've recognized as yet.

I loved this story. It had been so long since #1 that I'll admit I hesitated before buying it, but boy am I glad I went through with it.

I'll admit that I was a little disappointed with the 'self-contained issues' claim because I haven't felt that really holds true, but certainly #1 and #2 together work as a single unit.

And then there was the reference to what I can only imagine are Klarion's people, coming to trade with... was it giant talking rats? I'm not sure what they are just yet, but I'm sure we'll see.

Grant

05-18-2005, 10:08 PM

Guardian #2 was a great read. I love the pacing of the Guardian isssues. Morrison doesn't waste any time and each moment packs a punch. The turn of the page revealing the father and law was dead was an excellent example of this. I like Cameron Stewarts style definately recalls late seventies and early eighties DC with a lot more enrgy. I hope those two bring back Sea Guy.

Grant

05-18-2005, 10:10 PM

And then there was the reference to what I can only imagine are Klarion's people, coming to trade with... was it giant talking rats? I'm not sure what they are just yet, but I'm sure we'll see.

Klarion is suppose to be making his way to the underground Market in Klarion #2.

berk

05-18-2005, 10:37 PM

Jamie said:
I doubt it's a coincidence, although it may not be a pattern we've recognized as yet.
I loved this story. It had been so long since #1 that I'll admit I hesitated before buying it, but boy am I glad I went through with it.
I'll admit that I was a little disappointed with the 'self-contained issues' claim because I haven't felt that really holds true, but certainly #1 and #2 together work as a single unit.
And then there was the reference to what I can only imagine are Klarion's people, coming to trade with... was it giant talking rats? I'm not sure what they are just yet, but I'm sure we'll see. Guilt also plays a part in Guardian #1 & 2: Jake feels guilt for killing the 13 year old kid and now for letting his father-in-law die. The caption on the last page, "They speak of grand themes" of guilt and greed, of retribution, judgement abd damnation." We've seen the guilt and the greed; are the other three themes mentioned referring to the fate of the Pirate Kings in Guardian #2, or a foreshadowing of what's to come?

I'm certain you're right that these lines refer to Klarion's people: "There's a big, wild world under the sidewalk. Back in Falsebeard's day they told tales of underground markets where Puritan kiddie-snatchers from hell came to trade with talking rats." Lie yourself, I have no idea where the talking rats come in, though.

But I can't believe I missed the references to the Trolley Men in Klarion #1, which I just glanced over: Ezekiel to Klarion: " There's not much to see beyond High Market, just tunnels and rails and stone and more tunnels. Into one of those rock-holes in solid space did thy father vanish. In our vain search for him, a Trolley Man blessed me with food from the land above ..." and a little later, "I heard Submissionary Shadrach say they might seal the Wicket Gate like they did in olden time. They say we should cease trade with the Trolley Men and keep the stone harvest to ourselves." My first thought was that the Trolley Men must be the pirates, but maybe it's these "talking rats."

A few more random impressions:

Was that the Horigal we saw on the tracks and was it killed by the train?

Is there anything to the chain motif that seemed to keep popping up throughout the issue?

I loved the "Six-sided God Machine," which I see as a clever symbol of the randomness (or what we see as randomness) that seems to underly physical reality in some very basic sense, probably alluding to Einstein's famous comment on Quantum Theory, "God does not play dice with the universe," and the equally famous reply from (I think) Heisenberg, "Not only does he play dice, but he sometimes changes the rules."

The most interesting thing in Guardian #2 for me was the Pirate Kings.We have the rivals All-Beard and No-Beard, and a reference to an earlier leader, False-Beard. All-Beard and No-Beard are in a competition to become the king of all the "Under-Pirates". They find the
"Six-Sided God-Machine" and throw the dice to determine the winner. It looks like No-Beard "won", if that's him on the last page.

"All-Beard the intoxicated," with his long, white hair and beard, evokes, for me, the archetype of the prophet or holy man, inspired ('intoxicated') by the spirit of God; as a king and by his appearance, he also evokes for me the authoritarian god of Judaeo-Christian-Islamic tradition. Looking at his madness, his violent behaviour, his tyrranical authority over his followers, his brutal mistreatment of prisoners, and the hollowness and final outcome of his and No-Beard's quest, the message I read is to beware of false prophets, and of false gods. The false god in this case being something like the Gnostics' idea of the god of the Old Testament who falsely claimed to be the one true god. This is reinforced for me by the names of the individuals in this triumvirate of Beards, who in this sense are triples of the same figure: All-Beard, the most obvious visual representation of the false god and his prophet is parallelled by No-Beard who also behaves with violence and madness, and is on the same quest. All-Beard, or All-Father or God, is really No-Beard, no father, no god. And both are False-Beard, false prophets representing false gods. The fate of the "winner," No-Beard, reinforces this. He's not even a Pirate King anymore, just "some old homeless guy, sick and soon to die", and we see his diseased form wrapped in the chains that are killing him (the chains of the false, self-enslaving, self-destroying belief system he represents?)

Not sure where the trains come into this. At first I thought that All-Beard's train, the Night-Frigate, Worm-Almighty, might be alluding to the cosmic serpent; but now I think that it probably is another instance of All-Beard's flase claims to a special relationship to divinity. But what about No-Beard's train being named after Clinton. An allusion to worldly power? Or just a joke? But I think the dead end , the brick wall, is a visual representation of the dead end of quest of All-Beard and No-Beard, and all that quest represents.

I admit I may be projecting my own distaste for authoritarian monotheistic religion on all this. The reading I've given above feels just a little bit forced in places, so I haven't entirely convinced myself of its validity. But I think there's something in it. Maybe someone else can take the material and construct a more convincing readindg with it.

Paul McEnery

05-19-2005, 03:53 PM

Looked like the Horigal to me, too. Give it a month, and maybe we'll find out.

Anyone else spot the resemblance between the foundation stone and the bit of Castle Revolving that held the cauldron? Is that, perhaps, Castle Revolving down there?

Reptisaurus!

05-19-2005, 10:16 PM

I'm not following you here. The original SSoV were Golden Age heroes and Stan assembled his team in the early Silver Age.

I do see the character parallels tho.

Not the Golden Age SSOV, but the New Guys. Most of the examples I gave as analouges weren't members of the original Seven Soldiers.

Good call on the Horigal and the Castle Revolving. Guardian is the only book where the "Big Bads" haven't popped up. No Sheeda, No Ne-buloh, no Queen/Lady. So I was kind of wonderng how it was gonna tie in.

(And, again, I was all "meh" on this issue. Just didn't colalesce into coolness. Guardian's definitely been the weakest of the Four Series we've seen before.)

berk

05-20-2005, 10:30 AM

MarkAndrew said:Guardian is the only book where the "Big Bads" haven't popped up. No Sheeda, No Ne-buloh, no Queen/Lady. So I was kind of wonderng how it was gonna tie in. Although All-Beard's reference to "a god [who] lifts his awful, star-maned head" immediately brought Nebuloh's visual to my mind's eye. Was All-Beard getting his visions from the Sheeda?

After further reflection on the All-Beard/No-Beard/False-Beard trinity, I'm starting to think there was another layer there: the big difference between All-Beard and No-Beard is All-Beard's poetic, visionary language and the lack thereof in No-Beard, who is relatively straightforward in his speech. Couple this with the naming of his train as the President Clinton; the two best known attributes of Clinton in the popular mind are his status as leader of the world's only remaining super-power and his penchent for chasing women: so, material, worldly power and physical, worldly pleasure. Is the contrast between a materialist No-Beard and a visionary All-Beard? At the next layer down, though, I think there is the identity between the two I talked about earlier: they are both pirate kings (violent, predatory, unlawful authority), both on a mistaken quest, both False-Beards, representing false promises of power [EDIT: or, perhaps better, fulfillment].

Wesley Dodds

05-22-2005, 08:21 AM

I liked the joke that the train is named the President Clinton. Ah, well, in another time and place it'd be called the Queen Elizabeth, right? Very clever.

We can be pretty sure it's the Horigal that the train ran over because Klarion's next issue takes him to the same places.

And I loved the botched rescue -- "Did this woman have a broken neck before?"

Paul McEnery

05-24-2005, 06:01 PM

It's worth returning to the idea that No Beard and All Beard refer to the squabble between Moore and Morrison. Both of them are in pursuit of a mystical goal. The Foundation Stone sounds like the Philosopher's Stone to me -- an arcane object that offers transformation and power. So you've got a couple of outlaws willing to go to any lengths to get ahold of it. And yet, shocker, it turns out to be nothing more than an emblem of chance. And even then, the two of them can't think in more than terms of binary opposition: "Evens ye die, All-beard! And odds, 'tis I!"

"God doesn't play dice" -- Einstein.
"Does so too" -- Schrodinger.
"Any God worth his salt uses 20-sided dice" -- Steve Jackson.

(Oh, and thematically, does this connect to Prince Ra-Man's Necker Cube reality?)

LtMarvel

05-25-2005, 12:31 AM

Not the Golden Age SSOV, but the New Guys. Most of the examples I gave as analouges weren't members of the original Seven Soldiers.

Good call on the Horigal and the Castle Revolving. Guardian is the only book where the "Big Bads" haven't popped up. No Sheeda, No Ne-buloh, no Queen/Lady. So I was kind of wonderng how it was gonna tie in.

(And, again, I was all "meh" on this issue. Just didn't colalesce into coolness. Guardian's definitely been the weakest of the Four Series we've seen before.)
Not according to Entertainment Weekly. They named it the best series in their "5 reasons we love ..." feature in the book review section. (They reprinted the final panel from Manhattan Guardian #2.)

I agree with them, too.

1 Grant Morrison is best known for trippy takes on iconic superheroes like X-Men. But with Seven Soldiers, comicdom's mad genius is tackling a collection of third-tier characters in the DC Comics canon. The result is top-shelf. ''You can do anything you want with characters nobody cares about,'' says the brash 45-year-old Scottish scribe.

2 Comprising seven four-issue miniseries, Soldiers impressively assays an array of escapist genres. Shining Knight is revisionist Arthurian myth, while Zatanna is a dark (and darkly comic) fantasy. Three titles have yet to debut, including Mister Miracle, about a David Blaine-meets-Puff Daddy escape artist.

3 Each book is powerfully grounded in emotion, humor, and accessible characters. The best: The Manhattan Guardian, about a haunted ex-cop hired by a newspaper to play superhero.

4 Each series, published monthly, stands alone, but they interlock to form a larger whole. Morrison hints that Klarion the Witch Boy is pivotal to the big picture.

5 Morrison stuffs each issue — each page — with myriad wild ideas, a long-evolving style he calls ''compression.'' It reaches maturity in Soldiers. ''Most comics spread a story too thin,'' says Morrison. ''I'm throwing down the gauntlet. I'm saying 'Pick up your game.'''

Paul McEnery

05-25-2005, 10:52 AM

I think this series of series is horses for courses.

Let's see who likes what and for why:

1. Zatanna
2. Shining Knight
3. Guardian
4. Klarion

For me, it's a matter of density of ideas. Klarion is the simplest story with the most direct allegory and the closest adherence to convention. Right now, Zatanna is nothing but idea. Knight has been dense with mythological detail. Guardian has been less blatant, and the references are more back to DC than to myth in general.

What's everyone else got?

Tobias March

05-25-2005, 11:55 AM

For me I'd simply reverse your final two so it's

Zatanna

Shinning Knight

Klarion

Guardian.

More so through the ascendency of ideas in each title (reaching its purest 'Hegelian' :p expression with Zatanna.) At least that's how it seems, though I might just be mistakenly jonsin' on the parallels with Promethea. Guardian is enjoyable also, more so than most titles out there, while being at the same time the closest to a superhero comic (albeit a far superior take on the 'working stiff', superhero idea that we've seen before with 'Hero for Hire', or Spider-man etc.).

hondobrode

05-27-2005, 07:12 PM

Most enjoyable listed at the top and working downwards from there :

Shining Knight - I've always loved the character

Guardian - ditto esp in Kessel's run on Superboy

Klarion - barely know the character but this is very good

Zatanna - not one of the Zatanna fanatics but have always liked her and this too is good, just not as enjoyable as the other three so far IMO.

Looking forward to Spawn of Frankenstein, Bulleteer and am esp interested in seeing his spin on Mr Miracle, a character I like less and less the older I get

berk

05-28-2005, 07:51 PM

Shining Knight and Zatanna are definitely the two I most look forward to, but beyond that I couldn't rank the four series.

Zatanna might be the best written, as far as the words on the paper are concerned. This is all the more impressive to me because it's probably the concept I found least interesting when I first read about the Seven Soldiers books. Never found her interesting as a character concept, particularly hated the whole talking backwards schtick, but Morrsison managed to make all those negative feelings irrelevant with one issue.

Shining Knight's the story I like best, the one where I can't wait to see what's going to happen next. I like the Arthurian/Celtic-legend-inspired concept and how Morrsion's playing with those sources. This is the most exotic series, with talking winged horses, armoured warriors transplanted into present day LA, undying Mob bosses, and who knows what else, and it's probably the most fun to read.

Klarion's a case of too early to tell, I think. I'm a fan of Kirby's Demon series, but Klarion himself was never a favourite character from it, although I recognise the creativity displayed there by Kirby (a Goth kid before there were Goth kids, just for starters). The twisted Puritan society of the Submissionaries is a good instrument for the anti-authoritarian message I see there, but the Puritans themselves aren't that interesting to me. Just a personal reaction. I think it's because they were basically like us: a sub-section of the middle-class (or bourgeois, if you prefer), they shared much of the same middle-class value system we've inherited today (not surprisingly, since we've inherited it partly from them). In that sense, they're the opposite of exotic (contrast Shining Knight), that is, they are mundane. Which is partly the point, I guess, but it can make for a slightly dreary read, since the Puritans were such a dreary lot; and since we're so much like them ... well, it hardly leads to an inspiring vision of ourselves, does it. Which, once again, is probably the point.

Guardian is almost as out there as Shining Knight, in a lot of ways, but it's anchored to our world by the down-to-earth Jake and his family, as well as by the simplified, not to say clunky artwork. I imagine that that art style was a deliberate choice from the creators/editors, and although it can lend the book a pedestrian quality at times, I think it works for the most part. If the story concepts continue to be as weird as int he first two issues, it'll make for a nice contrast, reminscent to me of older series like Gerber's Defenders whhere gerber's bizarre plot elements and characters were in stark contrast to the somewhat unimaginative artwork.

What's the story on Morrsion and Moore? I wasn't aware there was ever any kind of conflict between them. But if Paul's right about No-Beard and All-Beard, it might tie in with the fact that All-Beard is bitterly disappointed when he discovers the nature of the Six-Sided God-Machine, whereas No-Beard takes it in stride and seems to revel in leaving everything up to chance. Should we read here the idea that Chaos magic, as the term would imply, is more accepting of the idea that ultimate reality rests on probability? And that this is why No-Beard 'wins'? More likely, given the aftermath of No-Beard's 'victory', it's taking a poke at the artificial opposition between two Beards. Which is what Paul was saying, of course.

Anyone seen the Zatanna preview? Looks like that little girl has somehow gotten hold of the (or another?) 'Six-Sided God-Machine'.

Wesley Dodds

05-29-2005, 06:31 AM

Hey, what exactly is the squabble between Moore and Morrison? I've heard about it many times but I don't know what it's over.

Bat-Mite

05-29-2005, 02:03 PM

Who knows. I think Morrison's made up religion is in constant jihad against Moore's made up religion.

Tobias March

05-30-2005, 02:54 PM

Hey, what exactly is the squabble between Moore and Morrison? I've heard about it many times but I don't know what it's over.

If that interpretation of the 'All-Beard/No-Beard', metaphor is true, than it's very flattering to Morrison. He comes off as a result as the rebel, whereas Moore is the traditionalist, the stodgy 'bearded', authority figure. Which frankly is fairly suspect. Morrison early on identified Moore as the 'other chaos mage'. I remember a fawning e-mail that was prominently displayed on his website, asking if Morrison could introduce the person in question to Moore. This provided Morrison with just the opportunity to play up this rivalry/resentment between the elder figure and this young turk from Glasgow!

It was a bit much. After all Morrison uses chaos magick not only as a lifestyle, but as another method of self-promotion. That's business as usual on planet Morrison, but the lectures on magick he delivers adds an extra layer of exoticism to the persona he presents through the media. Moore if anything seems to be quite private with his 'studies'. It's more of a literary puzzle to him almost, an unveiling. He uses it to fuel his stories and whole sections of Promethea did double as a lecture.

All-Beard/No-Beard should be read I think as a more generalized metaphor between the 'old' and the 'new', past and future. But I don't see either Morrison or Moore as representing either of these positions, as they merely use magick in different ways, personal explorations more than any particular world view.

Wesley Dodds

05-31-2005, 02:45 AM

And, of course, neither one is the True-Beard.

But it's over "Chaos Magick"? That's pretty stupid.

berk

05-31-2005, 08:46 AM

Tobias March

05-31-2005, 12:21 PM

From Tobias's description it doesn't sound as if it was over anything. It sounds, in fact, as if there were never any real dispute at all, just a bit of creative publicity initiated by Morrison in which Moore didn't participate at all. Or am I getting the wrong impression?

Yep, that's pretty much the impression I got. There was some story on CBR a few months ago where Morrison was at a signing in LA I think and answered a question on who was the better 'chaos mage'. It should still be archived on the site somewhere.

Anyway, Zatanna on Thursday :D I cannot wait.

Jamie

06-01-2005, 08:30 PM

hondobrode

06-02-2005, 04:42 AM

Picked up Zatanna today. I won't go into great detail because I've only read it once, but I enjoyed it. It's another one that doesn't really fulfill the 'self-contained stories' pitch behind this, as you really need #1, but it does a good job of wrapping #1 up while still leaving interest for #3.

I'm not completely sold on *how* these books have come out -- I think I would have preferred more often, or more of the different titles -- but I'm sold on the books themselves.

The single issues are obviously not meant to be self contained. It's the mini series themselves (4 issues each) that are meant to be self contained. Then, stepping back and seeing the big picture, you see how the 7 series are unconsciously interrelated to each other and the last bookend will tie up the overall arc that binds those together.

Glad to hear you liked Zatanna. My shop's books were late because of the holiday, so I'll be getting them today.

Jamie

06-02-2005, 10:14 AM

The single issues are obviously not meant to be self contained. It's the mini series themselves (4 issues each) that are meant to be self contained.

I am pretty sure Morrison made claims about each issue being self-contained.

From his interview on Suicide Girls: "Each of the four issues are also self-contained reads because I wanted to try a completely modular story." I'm pretty sure there are more references in other interviews and promos he's done, but unfortunately I'm at work so I can't track them all down.

Paul McEnery

06-02-2005, 04:48 PM

So the man in the top hat in Shining Knight is Ali-Ka-Zoom, which explains some of the magicky bits there. Perhaps the Newsboy Legion is on the bus?

SiliconDream

06-02-2005, 05:02 PM

What's the story on Morrsion and Moore? I wasn't aware there was ever any kind of conflict between them. But if Paul's right about No-Beard and All-Beard, it might tie in with the fact that All-Beard is bitterly disappointed when he discovers the nature of the Six-Sided God-Machine, whereas No-Beard takes it in stride and seems to revel in leaving everything up to chance. Should we read here the idea that Chaos magic, as the term would imply, is more accepting of the idea that ultimate reality rests on probability? And that this is why No-Beard 'wins'? More likely, given the aftermath of No-Beard's 'victory', it's taking a poke at the artificial opposition between two Beards. Which is what Paul was saying, of course.

Over on Barbelith, the artist has noted that Morrison's script didn't call for No-Beard to win, and that you weren't supposed to be able to tell whether the zombie in the last panel was No-Beard or All-Beard. Cameron wasn't really able to execute this idea, though, since drawing an ambiguous character who might either be a hairless black guy with costume A or a white guy with an enormous beard and shock of hair and dissimilar costume B is...well...impossible. I think he made the final image more No-Beardish simply because it was a little easier to imagine All-Beard rotting down to that state than vice versa.

Wesley Dodds

06-03-2005, 01:39 AM

OK, I've got my copy. Finally.

I'm starting to wonder how it is Morrison is going to be able to resolve this story. Are the Seven Soldiers going to meet in the 2nd bookend and then go whomp the Sheeda/whatever the main villain turns out to be? I'm asking because each mini-series is supposed to be more or less self-contained. I suppose the Soldiers will all individually fight the Sheeda (and defeat various lieutenants) before teaming up to beat the main threat. Just like in old Justice League comics where the team would split up to confront different aspects of a threat.

Hasn't it been interesting how the comics have strayed from the next issue blurbs? So, Zatanna didn't go to Vegas after all. And wasn't that the Golden Gate Bridge? Hmm, so she's in the same town as the Shining Knight... And Klarion, meanwhile, is hanging out in the same area as The Guardian. So, it's all starting to come together a little.

And the blurb for issue 3 has Zatanna meeting up with Don Vincenzo. Vincenzo has the Shining Knight's horse, so that's how the Shining Knight meets Zatanna?

And who was the Soldier who got cold feet in the first issue?

hondobrode

06-03-2005, 06:23 AM

I am pretty sure Morrison made claims about each issue being self-contained.

From his interview on Suicide Girls: "Each of the four issues are also self-contained reads because I wanted to try a completely modular story." I'm pretty sure there are more references in other interviews and promos he's done, but unfortunately I'm at work so I can't track them all down.

Is that a direct quote ? I don't have it in front of me, but what I recall is what I stated previously, that each MINI SERIES was to stand on it's own. If it were each ISSUE, why would he be using the mini series format ? When it has been stand alone issues, there was only one. Think back to the JSA relaunch, Silver Age, DC Comics Presents tribute to Julie Schwartz etc. Bookend, book # 1, book # 2, book # 3, Bookend.

You're judging Morrison by a standard that he didn't try to achieve, which is not fair.

SiliconDream

06-03-2005, 10:53 AM

Hasn't it been interesting how the comics have strayed from the next issue blurbs? So, Zatanna didn't go to Vegas after all. And wasn't that the Golden Gate Bridge? Hmm, so she's in the same town as the Shining Knight...

Isn't the Shining Knight in LA?

berk

06-03-2005, 02:02 PM

SiliconDream said: Over on Barbelith, the artist has noted that Morrison's script didn't call for No-Beard to win, and that you weren't supposed to be able to tell whether the zombie in the last panel was No-Beard or All-Beard. Cameron wasn't really able to execute this idea, though, since drawing an ambiguous character who might either be a hairless black guy with costume A or a white guy with an enormous beard and shock of hair and dissimilar costume B is...well...impossible. I think he made the final image more No-Beardish simply because it was a little easier to imagine All-Beard rotting down to that state than vice versa. I like the idea of the winner ebing ambiguous, since it ties in better with my idea that at some level there is no real opposition between No_beard and All-Beard, or between whatever they represent.

STill thinking about the latest Zatanna. I'm a little ambivalent about the use of the magic die: I'm not sure it works too well as a symbol of randomness or of probability when at he same time Morrison has Misty employ it as a deterministic instrument of her will. But maybe we can see this as embodying the contradictions that our current state of knowledge of physics forces us to live with; I mean the contradiction between a quantum theory that has been confirmed everytime science has thought of a way to test it and that tells us the basis of reality ultimately rests on probablity, and the fact that our deterministic Newtonian and Einsteinian equations still work at the macro-level. Perhaps Misty's use of the die is collapsing all the different possible quantum states down to the one that she desires to "actually" happen. As 'Gwydion' found out to his sorrow.

Then again, people like me should probably keep in mind Zatanna's first rule of magic, "Nothing is as it seems," and beware of misidrection when trying to decode Morrison's stories.

Is Ali-Ka-Zoom an established DC character? How about Cassandra Craft. Morrsion wrote the latter very well.

The new supreme architect of the universe whose name is yet hidden: Morgan La Faye? Loved the phrase; Morrison has a good ear for stuff like that, and for dialogue. It's amazing that a guy from Scotland can write American dialogue better than most Americans. I said this once of Alan Moore and I'll say it now of Morrison: I wish some Hollywood production company would give him a pile of cash (and complete artistic freedom of course) and tell him to create a tv series.

The Phantom Stranger is one of the few non-Kirby-created DCU characters I consider myself to be a fan of, so i'm glad to see him pop up here.

'Gwydion' was a fairly major disappointment, but perhaps we'll see the real one make an appearance yet. Loved the little excerpt in the book in which he was transformed, "I have been ...etc, etc." It reminded me of something I've read somewhere - does anyone know whether or not it might be a quote or paraphrase from something from Celtic legend or myth? A poem, perhaps?

Shem the Penman

06-03-2005, 02:46 PM

It's apparently part of the Cad Goddeu, although not quite the same wording as the version here:

http://camelot.celtic-twilight.com/poetry/taliesin/cad_goddeu.htm

These sort of list poems, where the wizard-poet describes all the things he's seen, done, or been, are fairly common. Perhaps you might have come across one before.

Wesley Dodds

06-03-2005, 08:02 PM

Isn't the Shining Knight in LA?

Actually, yes, but Z is

going to LA in the next issue.

Reptisaurus!

06-03-2005, 10:55 PM

Nice goin' Shen.

Alright. 'Nother one for you. What the Hell was the dang Cat sayin'?

Lex

06-03-2005, 11:37 PM

Is that a direct quote ? I don't have it in front of me, but what I recall is what I stated previously, that each MINI SERIES was to stand on it's own. If it were each ISSUE, why would he be using the mini series format ? When it has been stand alone issues, there was only one. Think back to the JSA relaunch, Silver Age, DC Comics Presents tribute to Julie Schwartz etc. Bookend, book # 1, book # 2, book # 3, Bookend.

It's true that each mini-series is stand-alone. But, Morrison is also having each issue of the minis be a complete story. Each first issue was a complete origin story and each second issue has been another complete story. But that doesn't mean that each issue is seperate from the others. Zatanna is still on her quest to regain her powers and find her father's books. Shining Knight is still time-lost.

Let's look at Zatanna #2. While it continues on from the story in #1, it's a different story. #1 took place in the therapy group with flashbacks. That story ended in the first issue and set up things for the continuing story of the mini-series. #2 was a different story, dealing with Zatanna and her apprentice seeking out help and Zee battling that demon. Once again, that story ended while setting up continuing plot elements. It's still basically a story of Zatann's quest, but each issue is it's own unique story.

Shem the Penman

06-04-2005, 12:04 AM

Nice goin' Shen.

Alright. 'Nother one for you. What the Hell was the dang Cat sayin'?

My expertise with hieroglyphics is limited to Google, but based on that it looks like he was just making cat noises (the first balloon works out to "MRHOW," the second to "MEOW").

Reptisaurus!

06-04-2005, 01:07 AM

My expertise with hieroglyphics is limited to Google, but based on that it looks like he was just making cat noises (the first balloon works out to "MRHOW," the second to "MEOW").

Wow. I'm officially impressed. And that's pretty funny t' boot.

berk

06-04-2005, 01:44 AM

I finally remembered why some of this stuff seemed familiar to me: the Cad Goddeu is quoted by Robert Graves in his book, The White Goddess. Gwydion, Caer Sidi or Castle Revolving, Morgan le Faye, and a lot of other stuff from Seven Soldiers are mentioned as well. Graves's interpretations of myth are very personal and may not always be applicable outside his own work, but I find them to be thought-provoking, even when I have doubts about their historical veracity. Like Oscar Wilde said, one should never allow the imagination to fall into careless habits of accuracy.

I'd read the White Goddess years ago and didn't recall a lot of the details, but I skimmed through parts of it earlier today out of curiosity. Graves sees Castle Revolving as the Underworld, the Land of the Dead, but believes it can be a symbol for not only death but also rebirth, at least for the select few ("Except seven, none returned from Caer Sidi."). Gwydion he sees as an analogue of the Germanic Woden/Wotan/Odin; he believes Morgan le Faye is a euhemerized version of the Morrigu, and that each is an aspect of the Great Goddess, as is the Christian goddess Mary (recall Stella Maris from Shining Knight #2).

Paul McEnery

06-04-2005, 03:34 AM

Nice goin' Shen.

Alright. 'Nother one for you. What the Hell was the dang Cat sayin'?
According to Google Hieroglyph, it's "Bird, want to eat, wait a second, write, no, I was right the first time, eat a bird!"

hondobrode

06-04-2005, 04:38 AM

It's true that each mini-series is stand-alone. But, Morrison is also having each issue of the minis be a complete story. Each first issue was a complete origin story and each second issue has been another complete story. But that doesn't mean that each issue is seperate from the others. Zatanna is still on her quest to regain her powers and find her father's books. Shining Knight is still time-lost.

Let's look at Zatanna #2. While it continues on from the story in #1, it's a different story. #1 took place in the therapy group with flashbacks. That story ended in the first issue and set up things for the continuing story of the mini-series. #2 was a different story, dealing with Zatanna and her apprentice seeking out help and Zee battling that demon. Once again, that story ended while setting up continuing plot elements. It's still basically a story of Zatann's quest, but each issue is it's own unique story.

Good points all. That is more true with Zatanna than with the other series though. Would you be able to say the same thing about Guardian or Shining Knight ? I don't think it applies there, so overall, no, that is not what we are seeing, nor is it what I think Morrison intended. I still have yet for someone to show me where Morrison said that each issue of each mini was to be stand alone. What I recall is that each mini can be read on its own but each mini is actually part of a bigger overarcing story to fits together interrelatedly and becomes the epic Seven Soldiers Saga.

I thought this issue of Zatanna was excellent by the way.

Shem the Penman

06-04-2005, 09:13 AM

Lex

06-04-2005, 12:17 PM

Good points all. That is more true with Zatanna than with the other series though. Would you be able to say the same thing about Guardian or Shining Knight ? I don't think it applies there, so overall, no, that is not what we are seeing, nor is it what I think Morrison intended. I still have yet for someone to show me where Morrison said that each issue of each mini was to be stand alone. What I recall is that each mini can be read on its own but each mini is actually part of a bigger overarcing story to fits together interrelatedly and becomes the epic Seven Soldiers Saga.

From Newsarama:

Newsarama: As you mentioned earlier, your storytelling will owe more to Altman than say, other comic creators in Seven Soldiers. Can you explain that a little more?

Morrison: It's a 'modular' approach, in the sense that every first issue is a complete origin story with a cliffhanger and every subsequent issue delivers a stand-alone adventure. You can read any of the books as singles or as 4-part series. if you only want to read Shining Knight, for instance, you'll still get a good 4-part complete story of young Sir Justin in the 21st century, and each book also sets up a potential ongoing series if the character proves popular with readers.

There you have it. Each issue is supposed to be stand-alone while continuing the over-all plot of the mini-series and connecting to the other events in the Seven Soldiers saga. So there are three layers to everything. 1.) Seven Soldiers saga and how everything connects. 2.) The main plots of each mini-series. 3.) The stand-alone story in each issue.

And I believe Morrison has done that for almost all the issues we've seen. You brought up Shining Knight as an example of not being stand-alone. The first issue was a complete origin that dealt with Justin in the past and Camelot's last stand against the Sheeda. Falling through Castle Revolving into the present was still part of that origin story. Now, at the end of issue 1, we see the beginnings of the stand-alone story in issue 2, which is Justin dealing with being in the 21st century. So, I see Shining Knight 1 and 2 as two seperate stories, yet still involved in one over-all story.

Now, I'll give you Guardian. While Guardian #1 had a complete origin story, it had too much of the plot from issue #2 (subway pirates plot) in it to be completely stand-alone. I'd say this is the closest thing we've come to a normal 2-issue story.

As a writer, I find what Morrison is doing here to be very interesting.

hondobrode

06-05-2005, 02:58 AM

Lex,

I do indeed stand corrected. You are right. I did see it when looking at the Zatanna series, as you say. I did not see it in Guardian and I still see more interconnectedness in the Shining Knight tale, but I can see where the first issue is more origin and the next moves away from that.

The term modular does apply even more aptly as you point out.

I wouldn't have believed it if it didn't read it for myself (for the second time). It seems that when he said that I guess I thought at first glance he was referring to the origin portion or maybe I just missed it altogether.

I'm pleased to seeing so many people getting the buzz about this series. I made sure to pick up my copies off the newsstand because I'm not confident in DC collecting this. I still haven't recovered from not getting my Legion Lost collected.

The Grey Man

06-05-2005, 01:18 PM

personally i prefered Klarion the witch 'boy' to this Klarion the effette teen. so much more menacing for a innocent looking minor doing evil spells and owning a were-cat than this pasty-faced goth leather clown.
the character looks ok in his own right but witch boy is better than witch teenager. imo.

Sandy Hausler

06-06-2005, 06:10 AM

Is Ali-Ka-Zoom an established DC character? How about Cassandra Craft. Morrsion wrote the latter very well.

I don't believe Ali-Ka-Zoom is an established DC character, although anything is possible. Cassandra Craft, if I recall correctly, appeared in the old Phantom Stranger series, although in no way similar to the way she appears in Zatanna (except for appearance).

Sandy Hausler

twilight

06-06-2005, 06:24 AM

I've only got five issues so far (#0,1 and 2 of Shining Knight and the first issues of Guardian and Zantanna)but so far it's been a fascinating ride.

But somethings been bugging me about Shining Knight #2,After scaring the two punks off Justin is suddenly wearing a modern shirt and standing under a street light.Was there any explanation for this?Or am I just missing the obvious?

Does anybody have any guesses as to who the seventh soldier who backed out of Vigilante's team in Seven Soldiers #0 is?

Wesley Dodds

06-07-2005, 07:28 AM

Does anybody have any guesses as to who the seventh soldier who backed out of Vigilante's team in Seven Soldiers #0 is?

I'm going to guess the obvious and say we'll never find out. It will be left unanswered.

By the way, I bought JLA Classified 2 and 3 today -- the Seven Soldiers prelude (still looking for 1). I'm not sure about it. Did Morrison really have to introduce the Sheeda and Neh-Buh-Loh in a JLA story? The Seven Soldiers books do a fine job of introducing them. And the Ultramarines are living inside Neh-Buh-Loh? That's just strange.

I hope the Seven Soldiers stay together after this epic finishes. It's an interesting team mix.

Wesley Dodds

06-07-2005, 07:31 AM

But somethings been bugging me about Shining Knight #2,After scaring the two punks off Justin is suddenly wearing a modern shirt and standing under a street light.Was there any explanation for this?Or am I just missing the obvious?

And when the gun in Justin's hand goes right-side-up between panels.

Ilash

06-07-2005, 09:00 AM

Yup, Seven Soldiers has been a great ride so far. One thing is for sure though Morrison and Sook NEED to do an ongoing Zatanna book as soon as Seven Soldiers is finished.

Tobias March

06-07-2005, 01:24 PM

Lex,

I'm pleased to seeing so many people getting the buzz about this series. I made sure to pick up my copies off the newsstand because I'm not confident in DC collecting this. I still haven't recovered from not getting my Legion Lost collected.

I suspect the very same. Which is a pity as if it were to be collected, I would make a point of buying a copy for each and every one of my friends that I wish to 'infect' :D

gorosaurus

06-07-2005, 02:31 PM

I'm going to guess the obvious and say we'll never find out. It will be left unanswered.

By the way, I bought JLA Classified 2 and 3 today -- the Seven Soldiers prelude (still looking for 1). I'm not sure about it. Did Morrison really have to introduce the Sheeda and Neh-Buh-Loh in a JLA story? The Seven Soldiers books do a fine job of introducing them. And the Ultramarines are living inside Neh-Buh-Loh? That's just strange.

I hope the Seven Soldiers stay together after this epic finishes. It's an interesting team mix.
Neh-Buh-Loh was established in JLA Classified #1, though he was based on the Nebula Man; who was the villain responsible for separating the original Seven Soldiers through
time and space way back Pre-Crisis when the JLA would hop the dimensional barrier and team up with the JSA. I think the recruit who backed out was Red Bee; he thought , "My belt buckle full of trained bees just ain't goona cut it".

hondobrode

06-08-2005, 07:02 AM

Oh I don't see this NOT becoming a series. I would bet money on it.

Wesley Dodds

06-09-2005, 09:30 AM

So the man in the top hat in Shining Knight is Ali-Ka-Zoom, which explains some of the magicky bits there.

Well-spotted! Actually, on page 15 panel 3 of Shining Knight 2 you can see the homeless man's coat has tails. That confirms it.

The other man in the top hat seems to be Zatanna's father Zatara. The hat is the same as the one Zatara wore in his Letterman appearance in the previous issue. His line, "I came back for the books" seems to be a reference to Zatanna's search in the previous issue for her father's books. And the mysterious man is wearing a blue striped suit similar to the one Zatara wore when fighting crime.

I can't believe I didn't twig to that in my first read through of Zatanna 2! It's so obvious.

David Bedlam

06-09-2005, 12:45 PM

I'm not sure if this hasn't been brought up before, but...

Does anyone think that the six-sided god engine the subway pirates were looking for in Manhatten Guardian was the girl's (I forget her name) magic voice contoled die?

Wesley Dodds

06-10-2005, 02:39 AM

No, because Misty Kilgore's die has roman numerals on it and the God Engine has dots.

berk

06-10-2005, 09:15 AM

At another level, I think that it doesn't really matter whether or not Misty's die and the one No-Beard and All-Beard were after are the same physical object, because there's obviously some kind of connection between them. We'll probably have to wait and see whether or not that connection will reveal itself as a symbolic identity. But I do think that in some way, Misty's die is a "six-sided god-machine," either the same one we saw in Guardian or another.

Misty, of course, is one of the great mysteries of the Zatanna story. Who is she, where does she come from, why does she have this magic die, why does she know how to use it (when All-Beard/No-beard/False-Beard had no idea how to use the one they found)? The last question might be the most significant one. After reading Zatanna #2, I was playing with the idea that the word "misty" has some of the same associations of formlessness as the phrase "shapeless ones" or whatever Cassandra called them. But everything indicates that Misty is the "mostly innocent young girl" (loved that line, by the way) she appears to be, so if there's any significance to this speculation it might be limited to the sub-textual level.

But the mystery of Misty's power and of her ability to access the power of the magic die remains. My inmmediate reaction was that this ability must indicate some sort of understanding, perhaps unconscious, of the nature of the six-sided god-machine; which might be connected with who she is and so on. But as always, this is all idle speculation and, even if there's anything to it, might never be addressed directly, i.e. at the narrative level. Looking forward to finding out, though.

Wesley Dodds

06-10-2005, 11:20 AM

Oh, I agree that it's a repetition of a motif, I was just pointing out that they're not the same object. Unless Grant meant them to be the same but didn't think to co-ordinate the artists. And, of course, they could both be magical. But I think the twist at the end of Guardian 2 only really works if the die is just that -- an ordinary, non-magical die.

Jared_Humpherys

06-10-2005, 12:10 PM

note: Klarion finds a die at the end of Klarion issue 2. So maybe there IS some link there.

berk

06-10-2005, 06:26 PM

Wesley Dodds said:
But I think the twist at the end of Guardian 2 only really works if the die is just that -- an ordinary, non-magical die. I'm not so sure; it might have been just that No-Beard/All-Beard didn't understand the nature of the die and what it signified or that they did understand but could not accept its implications - for example, the implication that, just as quantum theory tells us, God does indeed play dice with the universe, contrary to Einstein's denial (which I believe he later retracted). On the other hand, this reading might not fit too well with Misty's use of her die as "a deterministic instrument of her will," to quote myself from an earlier post. Definitely lots of room for discussion/speculation here. Maybe Klarion's die will help shed some new light on the question.

Wesley Dodds

06-11-2005, 12:32 AM

Here's a crazy idea. What if Misty turns out to be Klarion in disguise?

Grant

06-11-2005, 04:46 AM

Here's a crazy idea. What if Misty turns out to be Klarion in disguise?

I was actually thinking she was from Klarion's town.

Wesley Dodds

06-11-2005, 10:45 AM

I know my idea is crazy, but:

1. They both have a magical die

2. They both have black fingernails

3. They both have panda eyes

4. They're both Goth

5. They've both run away from their mother

6. They both like cats

7. Misty has a strange aura

Hmmm.

Bat-Mite

06-11-2005, 11:11 AM

Take away the magical die, and half the girls from Suicide Girls could be Klarion too.

Wesley Dodds

06-11-2005, 11:31 AM

Take away the magical die, and half the girls from Suicide Girls could be Klarion too.

So Klarion has a hobby.

Grant

06-11-2005, 09:10 PM

Take away the magical die, and half the girls from Suicide Girls could be Klarion too.

So Klarion has a hobby.

Thanks for putting that image in my head. I can already hear the police knocking on my door.

berk

06-15-2005, 11:52 PM

No commenst on Klarion #2 yet? Well here are a few random comments and reactions:

The verry first page, where the Horigal says "Ye broke the Law!" and "Ye shall be judged!" to me went a step beyond confirming what we'd all already noticed - that the Submissionaries represented authoritarian organised religion. It and subsequent prononucemnts from the Horigal immediately evoked for me the Old Testament as opposed to the New testament. The clincher is when the Horigal rants "Ye have no advocate! There is no redemption!" since redemption is exactly what Jesus brought to humanity (or at least that part of it lucky enough to hear his message) according to Christian doctrine. The missing advocate would be a Jesus figure.

However, right after that statement from the Horigal (stand-in for the vindictive an wrathful god of the Old Testament?), Klarion is in fact saved by Ebeneezer Badde, so maybe we do have our Jesus figure. But, if so, what a comment on Christianity: Badde sells Klarion to unknown forces who have a literal, physical cage all prepared for him. So the "redemption" offered by the New Testament merely leads to a differnt kind of bondage. That Klarion is sold into this bondage by his Badde saviour is a very fair comment on the entire nature of Christian doctrine IMO: the very word "redemption" itself has implications of the buying and selling of slaves - something glossed over all too often (check out William Empson's 'Milton's God' for more on this idea). I grant that I may be projecting my own feelings onto Morrison's story here once again, though.

In another twist, Ebeneezer (like his Dickensian namesake?) has a last-minute change of heart and tries to save Klarion again, this time from his (Badde's) own betrayal. It looks like he was killed by Leviathan, but I hope Badde survives; good character.

Bur there's another way of looking at Badde, one which appears to conrtradict everything I just said above: his general attitude and several of his specific lines mark him as a man who has lost faith in anything beyond the immediate material world he can perceive thorugh his senses and in any goal beyond crass gratification of his physical needs/desires. I'm thinking of his bounty of porno books and booze
for delivering Klarion, lines like "why bother with gods and heroes at all?" and of course his statement about the absent, i.e. non-existent, god Croatoan.

But Klarion, right before that statment of Badde's, shows that he has the opposite view: ""I've always felt that ... well, he [Klarion's real father] was still alive somewhere. Perhaps he reached Blue Rafters and dwells there where I will find him." In other words, 'Our Father, Who art in Heaven, ...'. The fact that Badde's response to this speech of Klarion's is "You're all alone." (i.e. there is no father, no Father, no Croatoan, no God) reinforces what I said in the paragraph above.

So far, I'm not sure how these two views of the character work together. Are they totally contradictory? Or can they be reconciled somehow?

Leviathan - I'm not up on my Hobbes, but IIRC, he used the term to refer to the 'organism' that eventually emerges from the interactions of individual men after they realise the necessity for co-operation, i.e. society, i.e. the relatively rational entity created through the social contract. But Badde appears to see the children as a mindless mob, i.e. the state of man before Hobbes's hypothetical social contract, when the lives of men were 'nasty, brutish, and short'. I sens eI might be missing some sbtleties here - anyone read Hobbes lately?

Vanity Fair - straight from Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress the classical English-language allegory. A comment on how we are to read Klarion, the series? (which would support Paul McEnery's criticism of the first issue).

Klarion wants to be writer - he has the artistic instinct to create and to explore. Perhaps Morrison is or will be making some observations on the creative worldview in this series?

Guardian's helmet: yet another piece of head-gear that is turned upside-down to become a vessel. More Grail symbolism?

Loks like the die Klarion found is the one No-/All-/False-Beard were searching for. He already seems to understand its nature on the symbolic level ("I'll keep this reminder of Croatoan who isn't. All we can trust is change and chance."); will he learn how to access its power? If he does, will it work the same way as Misty's die?

Melmoth: The title character of Maturin's 'Melmoth the Wanderer' was IIRC, a man who had sold his soul for physical immortality and went around the world trying to tempt others to do the same (I think; been many years since I read this). So is he a stand-in for the Devil, i.e. worldy power? Wait & see, I guess.

TCJohnson

06-16-2005, 12:02 AM

Loks like the die Klarion found is the one No-/All-/False-Beard were searching for. He already seems to understand its nature on the symbolic level ("I'll keep this reminder of Croatoan who isn't. All we can trust is change and chance."); will he learn how to access its power? If he does, will it work the same way as Misty's die?

And the room he ound it in is the same room full of Toxic waste where No/All/False Beards met their fate.

So far, this is the best of the Seven Soldiers I thought.

berk

06-16-2005, 12:29 AM

TCJohnson said:
And the room he ound it in is the same room full of Toxic waste where No/All/False Beards met their fate.

So far, this is the best of the Seven Soldiers I thought. Yeah, there's all kinds of room (heh) for speculation there: The "God who escaped" might be asociated with All-/No-/-False-Beard and their quest, meaning that this was a false god, i.e. no god, just as Badde indicates. The chains could symbolise the chains used by this false god (illegitimate authhority?) to bind humanity, just as the Sub-Missionaries bind the people of Limbo Town with their arbitrary laws. In Guardian they evoked for me a related concept - the chains that bound All-/No-/False-Beard in their false beliefs.

But here they could also represent the chains with which humanity has bound its God: I mean this false, non-existent, "personal" God that is bound by our misconceptions of what "God" would have to be if "He" existed. Our ideas, inevitably framed in the limited terms of the human mind, is "bound" by a mass of contradictions that render "His" existance impossible. Hence this "God", i.e. this false concetpualization of the divine or of the underlying mystery of reality or whatever you want to call it, has evaporated, dissappeared, "escaped." Badde sees this absence as an indication that there is no God, but it could simply mean that there is no "God", i.e. no God of any kind that we can conceive of, i.e. that can be bound by the limits of our human minds.

All of which, now that I think of it, could be seen as another way of phrasing the idea I put forward in the first paragraph.

Wesley Dodds

06-16-2005, 04:55 AM

Nah, it's cooler if they just had a giant monster chained up there once.

Hmm, Melmoth appeared just after Klarion rolled his die. I wonder if the die roll summoned him? The same way Misty used her die to find Zatanna.

I like Klarion's mincing manner. Just like a real teenage boy who's full of himself! I have a weird feeling that when he joins the Seven Soldiers he's going to be comic relief. He'll fall for Zatanna or something like that.

Berk -- and of course, Leviathan goes with Behemoth, which is also used in this issue. But I'm not sure Hobbes meant people would be midgets. :p

And there was No-Beard, among the dead. What a gaffe.

What I like best about this series is that it's mixing different styles and genres to tell a larger tale. That's the appeal for me. And it'll be great to see it all brought together when they finally team-up. If they finally team-up... Knowing Morrison, they might save the world without ever actually meeting.

Sandy Hausler

06-16-2005, 05:57 AM

In another twist, Ebeneezer (like his Dickensian namesake?) has a last-minute change of heart and tries to save Klarion again, this time from his (Badde's) own betrayal. It looks like he was killed by Leviathan, but I hope Badde survives; good character.

Not a big point, but the name Ebeneezer comes from Hebrew meaning the helping rock (or something to that effect).

Sandy Hausler

K'Nort

06-16-2005, 08:55 AM

Melmoth: The title character of Maturin's 'Melmoth the Wanderer' was IIRC, a man who had sold his soul for physical immortality and went around the world trying to tempt others to do the same (I think; been many years since I read this). So is he a stand-in for the Devil, i.e. worldy power? Wait & see, I guess.

THAT'S why that name sounded familiar. I figured it was an obscure DC character I'd forgotten (still could be). I still have that book but remember next to nothing and don't really have time to review it. Good to know, however.

Totally mundane question -- Since when is Teekl male?

CaptMagellan

06-16-2005, 09:09 AM

Here's a crazy idea. What if Misty turns out to be Klarion in disguise?

I'm leaning towards Misty being the aspect of Zatanna that controls her powers. She separated from her "Mother" and is now waiting for Zatanna to finish her current 'initiatory crisis' in order to return home.

This metaphor fits in with a lot of magical traditions, especially Chaos Magick, where these crises are expected periodically. With them they bring a feeling of isolation, hopelessness, a feeling that you are powerless and have been deluding yourself about your abilities, and abandonment from allies.

Once you make it through the other side of the crisis you experience a sense of euphoria, reconnection, epiphanies, and a greater sense of your power and mastery over it.

That's what I think Zee is currently going through and Misty (who no one else can really see but her) is actually just herself.

berk

06-16-2005, 09:23 AM

Wesley Dodds said: But I'm not sure Hobbes meant people would be midgets. Well, he did say they were short and nasty - joke!

I have to laugh at Klarion's manner, as well: very different from your typical comic book protagonist, to be sure. And not too far off Kirby's version. But I thought the original premise was that the seven soldiers would not ever meet, or do I mis-remember that?

Sandy Hausler: I was wondering whether there were any significance to the meanings and provenance of the names Ebeneezer and Mordecai and so on. Are they Biblical figures?

K-Nort: I re-read a few of the old Demon stories where Klarion first appears a few weeks back and was surprised to find that Teekl was referred to as male at first. Not sure if Kirby just forgot, or chnaged his mind or if the cat was always supposed to be able to switch gender or what. I'll dig out the issues and have another look.

I don't remember many details about Melmoth either, but I recall that he was a temptor and a corruptor and given to cynical speeches disparaging conventional morals, etc. Not sure how accurate my recollections are, though.

berk

06-16-2005, 09:43 AM

Tried to edit my previosu post but couldn't for some reason. But I just wanted to say that I love Captmagellan's ideas about Misty and Zatanna and I'm pissed I didn't think of it myself.

Sandy Hausler

06-16-2005, 10:01 AM

[QUOTE=berk]

Sandy Hausler: I was wondering whether there were any significance to the meanings and provenance of the names Ebeneezer and Mordecai and so on. Are they Biblical figures?

QUOTE]

Mordechai is a major bibical character in the Book of Esther. Ebenezer is not a biblical character to my knowledge, although the following reference can be found to the word in the book of I Samuel :

Then Samuel took a stone and set it up between Mizpah and Jeshanah, and named it Ebenezer; for he said, "Thus far the LORD has helped us." So the Philistines were subdued and did not again enter the territory of Israel; the hand of the LORD was against the Philistines all the days of Samuel. The towns that the Philistines had taken from Israel were restored to Israel, from Ekron to Gath; and Israel recovered their territory from the hand of the Philistines. There was peace also between Israel and the Amorites. (I Samuel 7:12-14 )

Hope that's helpful.

Sandy Hausler

Reptisaurus!

06-16-2005, 10:07 AM

Not a big point, but the name Ebeneezer comes from Hebrew meaning the helping rock (or something to that effect).

Sandy Hausler

There's also a British techno-popish song from about a decade back called "Ebeneezer Goode."

I'm leaning towards Misty being the aspect of Zatanna that controls her powers. She separated from her "Mother" and is now waiting for Zatanna to finish her current 'initiatory crisis' in order to return home.

She's... well, something, alright.

I was thinkin' that Misty was kind of a "bud" off of Zatanna too, some aspect of her personality given magical life. (And the powers.) In the same way that the Shining Knight had "Guilt" following him around, I think Misty is some aspect of Zee's subconscious.

But I totally missed the Klarion connection... That's a possibility, too.

K'Nort

06-16-2005, 10:25 AM

In the same way that the Shining Knight had "Guilt" following him around, I think Misty is some aspect of Zee's subconscious.

Oooo! Good connection!

Paul McEnery

06-16-2005, 06:36 PM

Which god was chained up in the bowels of the earth with poison dropping on him?

Loki.

And this is his die?

berk

06-16-2005, 07:11 PM

apul McEnery said:Which god was chained up in the bowels of the earth with poison dropping on him?

Loki.

And this is his die? So are we witnessing the beginning of Ragnarok, since Loki's escape from his imprisonment was one of the signs of that impending doom? A complete change in the order of reality?

The other famously chained and tortured god who comes to mind is Prometheus, although his torture took another form than having poison dripped on him. Then there's Lucifer, the Christian analogue to both Loki and Prometheus, who was pictured as a gigantic figure chained in Hell in some myths. Is Croatoan an escaped rebel god, whether benevolent or malevolent or neither?

Loki reminds me once again of Gwydion - another trickster/shape-shifter figure. I still wonder if he'll have a role to play in the overall story; or perhaps he was just another allusion to the theme of the trickster. If God does play dice with the universe, then he would appear as a trickster to us a la Loki, Gwydion, Prometheus, or even Odin or Hermes.

I forgot to mention earlier, but probably everyone caught it - Badde seemed to confirm our earlier impression that the Submissionaries are in league with the Sheeda when he said that Klarion had "the look of Limbo Town - the Sheeda face." I'm still wondering what to make of the Sheeda in all this, beyond the surface impression that they're the 'bad guys' of the story.

TCJohnson

06-16-2005, 08:52 PM

Hmm, Melmoth appeared just after Klarion rolled his die. I wonder if the die roll summoned him?

Actually, Melmoth came while Klarion was rolling the die and Klarion did not see what he rolled. Maybe the die would have shown Klarion the right path and Melmoth wants to take him down the wrong one?

Lex

06-16-2005, 09:16 PM

You guys put a lot more thought into this stuff than I do. I just sit back and read the awesomeness and think things like "A Leviathan with a body made up of hundreds of lost kids. That's a cool idea!"

I'm not well-read enough to catch the references about where this stuff comes from. But, it's really fun reading all of your conversations. :)

Tobias March

06-20-2005, 12:34 PM

So are we witnessing the beginning of Ragnarok, since Loki's escape from his imprisonment was one of the signs of that impending doom? A complete change in the order of reality?

Is Croatoan an escaped rebel god, whether benevolent or malevolent or neither?

Well the Sheeda's overall goal (apart from a literal 'Harrowing' of earth) has yet to be spelled out, but hints have been droped that 'Gloriana Tenebrae', serves some higher power again.

With this recurrent idea of a non-god in chance being the true power - tying into how the unlikely heroes of the Seven Soldiers will somehow defeat (presumably) this invasion by the Sheeda without ever meeting - perhaps this god can only come to exist through destruction, through non-existence. Perhaps the Sheeda in destroying Earth create their master, some representation of Oblivion 'All is Nothing', etc.

Also a common gnostic creation myth is of the god trapped within its creation, that can only be freed once the world is destroyed!

PS: Has anyone actually finished reading 'Melmoth the Wanderer', there were long passages in it I had difficulty with.

Wesley Dodds

06-21-2005, 10:57 AM

Well, Melmoth needs to convince someone to sell their soul to the devil to get out of his own pact. But he can't find anyone! So he wanders, looking.

Tobias March

06-21-2005, 11:06 AM

Well, Melmoth needs to convince someone to sell their soul to the devil to get out of his own pact. But he can't find anyone! So he wanders, looking.

Yeah y'see that was interesting. But then there's those long flashbacks within flashbacks concerning time spent in a Spanish monastery....oh it was tough.

Wesley Dodds

06-21-2005, 01:51 PM

Well, don't worry. He doesn't find anyone and nothing happens to him. He's still out there, looking. Boo!

The implication for Klarion is pretty obvious. He's going to tempt Klarion. But we knew that already from the next issue blurb. Of course, whether Morrison is going to stick with the legend and have Klarion refuse or subvert it by having Klarion accept is something else entirely.

I hope the 7 Soldiers do meet for the final issue. The tale will feel unfinished unless that happens.

Jack Ketch

06-22-2005, 11:40 PM

One thing about Klarion #2 I've not seen mentioned here is the echoes of the pantomime version of the Dick Whittington tale.

In particular the presence of a King Rat, the panel near the end of the issue where Klarion and Teekl are posed in a typical Dick Whittington pose and the basic similarity that it is the story of a boy and his cat looking for adventure and wonder.

Tobias March

06-23-2005, 11:33 AM

I'm still loving the Ebeneezer Badde - Goode reference someone above mentioned.

Grant liked his early nineties dance. It's like that scene in The Filth when early techno is used as therapy for trauma victims.

Lex

06-29-2005, 05:22 PM

Shining Knight #3 is out today.

*Spoilers!*

I was surprised because Justin wasn't in this issue very much. But, even though that was the case, it was still a great issue. It answered a lot of questions for me and brought up several new and exciting questions.

And it was very cool to see the Sheeda-Queen again.

Great issue!

Paul McEnery

06-29-2005, 06:51 PM

berk

06-29-2005, 11:58 PM

So we've seen Guardian and Klarion crossover. And now we see how the Zatanna/Justin crossover happens.

We also see what happens to I, Spider.

And we get two key plot points:

1. The Sheeda are responsible for all major civilization collapses. Hmm, now how thinly-veiled is that?

Not much. But I thought it was cool that Morrison's Sheeda were so often pictured as tiny flying things, and that he's now given them the same function as carrion flies - to dispose of dead matter, or, in this case, civilisations. On the other hand, if that ALL they do, I'm dissapointed in Morrison for reason I won't belabour right now.

2. Seven weapons.

Justin's is obvious.
Klarion has a die.
Zatanna -- another die? Or will she be getting the cauldron?
Guardian -- shield?

There's a lot of mystery here, still, or am I dense?

What were "the three imperishable treasures" Bors and Peredur brought back from Ysse? And which of the 7 treasures might they be, if any?

Quote from page 2: " There, eight miles below sea level, they split the building blocks of matter itself on their anvils."

Am I right in thinking that this- will be/was/will have been - the "six-sided god-machine"? It fits for me, because if "the building blocks of matter itself" are "split" - i.e. if we dare to follow quantum theory to its inevitable conclusions and search beneath (oh, so loaded, these terms) the surface of what we see as reality ("matter itself"), we will be forced to confront the possibility that our so-called reality is based on nothing more than probability/chance?

Concerning the question of the sevens - the 7 soldiers, the 7 Sins, the 7 Virtues, the 7 timeless objects," the 7 Chakras - I think we might have to wait until the entire series is done before we get a handle on all this.

Also note, from Klarion:
The girl doesn't know what to do with Guardian's helmet. Klarion tells her to turn it upside down, and now it's a pot. A grail reference?

I think so, but it remains to be seen where Morrison's going with it, for me, anyway.

There's a bunch of other stuff I want to comment on in this issue, but I have to go to work tomorrow, ...

Joe Rice

06-30-2005, 09:51 AM

Not much. But I thought it was cool that Morrison's Sheeda were so often pictured as tiny flying things, and that he's now given them the same function as carrion flies - to dispose of dead matter, or, in this case, civilisations. On the other hand, if that ALL they do, I'm dissapointed in Morrison for reason I won't belabour right now.

Just a quick point that the function of the Sheeda you mention there was told BY a Sheeda Queen, not exactly the most reliable, unbiased source for Sheeda news. That could be HER perspective on their function.

TCJohnson

06-30-2005, 10:03 AM

2. Seven weapons.

Justin's is obvious.
Klarion has a die.
Zatanna -- another die? Or will she be getting the cauldron?
Guardian -- shield?

Didn't Zantanna go after a book in issue #1? Her father's book?

Still, I think that Guardian and Zatanna has not found their weapons yet. They still have two more issues.

berk

06-30-2005, 10:32 PM

Just a quick point that the function of the Sheeda you mention there was told BY a Sheeda Queen, not exactly the most reliable, unbiased source for Sheeda news. That could be HER perspective on their function. Yup. The question remains, do these civilisations collapse because of their own internal flaws and are then disposed of by the Sheeda, clearing room for new ones to grow; or are they preyed upon and destroyed by the evil Sheeda; or are both these views simply different perspectives on the same process?

Perhaps this idea is reflected on the individual level be the corruption of Galahad; the "perfect knight" is the one who is corrupted, just as the civilisation that has reached its peak is the one "harvested" by the Sheeda.

According to my copy of the Mabinogion, Peredur is another version of Pryderi, the Underworld King killed by our old buddy Gwydion. And of course, the name is also the original of Perceval, one of the Grail Quest heroes. Galahad of course later supplanted everyon and became THE major Grail hero, expecially when the Christan aspects of the myth became dominant. Don't recall much about Bors, or where that character fits in Arthurian myth.

I was slightly confused by the sequence of events Morrison describes in the first few pages this issue. It was "thirty years after the fall of Camelot" that "the War to End the World began as the bright Age of Avalon reached its furious conclusion in fire"? I would have thought that the fall of Camelot was itself the end of that civilisation. And then, "one by one, the knights of Arthur succumbed to the evils of a dreadful new millenium"? Does that mean "the last survivors of Arthur's table" , Bors, Peredur, and Galahad?

According to Morgan la Fay, "the sword is one of four imperishable treasures Arthur and his knights stole from the people of the Otherworld." and on page 1 "three imperishable treasures of the ancient world" are mentioned. I assume these are the 7 weapons? But hthe one forged by Galahad and the Dwarromen seems to be an addition to these - or am I confused again?

Morrison gave Morgan/Friday some great lines: "Next to this we are less than brief splashes of flesh and bone and meaningless desire."

The "Words can mean anything and everything " speech - a knock against, or at least an allusion to, certain trends in post-modern thought?

How is it that these treasures are "given to man by the gods for his protection against ... evil" but four of them, including the cauldron and the sword, were stolen from the "evil" other world?

edit:
Almost forgot - Spyder working for the Sheeda - is this what happens to a "harvested" person? And will the seven heroes who were taken out by the Sheeda in Seven Soldiers #0 end up becoming seven adversaries for the current seven soldiers?