RENT the musical = DC Universe? [Archive] - Comic Book Resources Forums

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ScottyQuick

06-30-2009, 10:04 PM

(this thread won't make sense unless you've seen RENT)

Okay, my friend and I were talking the other day because I made a geeky fanvideo (http://ca.video.yahoo.com/watch/5355140/14112255) dedicated to Babs/Dinah. It's set to "Take Me or Leave Me" from RENT. She mentioned how Ollie would make a good Mark, and I'm wondering, what other parallels does the DCU have to RENT?

I mean, Joanne is definitely Barbara. An over-attentive anal-retentive lovable geeky control freak having trust issues with the love of her life? Totally.

Mark seems to fit Ollie. Crazy-ass liberals who got dumped by someone who was the center of their life? Yes.

Mimi is TOTALLY Selina, and Bruce is TOTALLY Roger. When Bruce/Roger lost their loved one, they became broody and dark and unable to truly appreciate life, until Selina/Mimi came along and brought them out.

Dinah seems to fit Maureen. They're both flirty and fun and sexy and have everyone drooling over them, but Maureen's a lot flakier and more selfish then Dinah.

What do you guys think? Any suggestions for Angel, Tom or Benjamin?

WorstThingUS

06-30-2009, 10:46 PM

ScottyQuick

06-30-2009, 10:49 PM

I think it's hysterical you're asking this on this site. It couldn't be more out of place than if it was the ESPN boards.

That said, Maureen is not even remotely close to Dinah. Selina could be either or both.

-facepalm-

I'm talking about DC characters and their similarities to other characters in a whole 'nother medium, genre, plot and history.

scandalsavage

07-01-2009, 04:52 PM

Well since I love Broadway and comics I will give this a spin.

I'll take Mark as Ollie (which makes sense given the Dinah = Maureen and Babs = Joanne)

And how about this? Roger = Bruce and Selina = Mimi? Much angst, much damage. And I mean, seriously, Mimi does dance at the Cat Scratch club.

Oh wait what about the Secret Six in Rent?
Scandal/Knockout as Joanne/Maureen

Thomas as Roger, Deadshot as Mark, RagDoll as Angel, Parademon as Collins?

Captain Comet

07-01-2009, 05:03 PM

I see now. THIS is how I'm going to introduce my girlfriend to comics. I never even thought about comparing stuff like this. Thank you thread starter!

ScottyQuick

07-01-2009, 06:30 PM

Infra-Man

07-01-2009, 06:44 PM

RENT the musical = DC Universe?

The DCU is kind of overrated?

Not a fan of that musical, but I think you can pretty much force a parallel to anything if you try hard enough.

ScottyQuick

07-01-2009, 07:02 PM

Not a fan of that musical, but I think you can pretty much force a parallel to anything if you try hard enough.

Thank you for that insightful explanation into your thoughts </sarcasm>.

no i'm not saying you have to agree with me, i'm saying explain your thoughts

Infra-Man

07-01-2009, 07:06 PM

I'm just saying that if you contrast and compare two different things, you can arrive at a number of different analogues if you look hard enough or try hard to force those analogues.

ScottyQuick

07-01-2009, 07:13 PM

I'm just saying that if you contrast and compare two different things, you can arrive at a number of different analogues if you look hard enough or try hard to force those analogues.

But how is it forcing?

A man, after the death of a beloved, has become secluded, broody and solely interested in one thing. One day, an amazing woman pops into his life and doesn't give up trying to open him up and show him that he can still feel joy until she succeeds. Is that Bruce and Selina or Roger and Mimi?

Infra-Man

07-01-2009, 07:23 PM

But how is it forcing?

A man, after the death of a beloved, has become secluded, broody and solely interested in one thing. One day, an amazing woman pops into his life and doesn't give up trying to open him up and show him that he can still feel joy until she succeeds. Is that Bruce and Selina or Roger and Mimi?

But, at the same time, is that just the arc of Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle? Why not Bruce Wayne and Vicki Vale or Bruce Wayne and Silver St. Cloud or Bruce Wayne and Talia al Ghul? (Or maybe even Tommy Gnosis and Hedwig.)

I think at the level of abstraction you may have something and it's a good leaping off point for a base comparison, but there is also more going on between Bruce and Selina that doesn't match what's going on between Roger and Mimi.

scandalsavage

07-02-2009, 04:16 AM

But, at the same time, is that just the arc of Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle? Why not Bruce Wayne and Vicki Vale or Bruce Wayne and Silver St. Cloud or Bruce Wayne and Talia al Ghul? (Or maybe even Tommy Gnosis and Hedwig.)

I think at the level of abstraction you may have something and it's a good leaping off point for a base comparison, but there is also more going on between Bruce and Selina that doesn't match what's going on between Roger and Mimi.

I also see the Bruce/Selina Roger/Mimi analogy.

Selina is a former prostitute (okay I will give you that is questionable given which writer's continuity you are going with, but let's just say for this discussion it is true). Mimi is an "exotic dancer" at the Cat Scratch Club. And Mimi is from the streets. I would say that Silver, Talia, Vicki and Jezebel's backgrounds range from comfortable to very wealthy.

Roger is overcoming a tragedy in his life by striving to do something great. Albeit his is to write one great song and Bruce's is assume a secret identity to eradicate Gotham of all evil, etc.

And that's a key point of the comparison. They both have secrets. That they keep from each other. And it turns out they have the same secret.

Oh and the two first meet in the dark. With their first pas de duex having Mimi trying to steal something back from Roger. Yeah, that was is a bit of a stretch.

You know with both Superman and Spiderman having their own musicals, you have to assume that someone, somewhere is cooking one up on on the Dark Knight, preferably with Batman Year One as a template.

WorstThingUS

07-02-2009, 06:40 AM

ryerye17

07-02-2009, 08:29 AM

It's Dick Grayson's entry into Bruce's life that actually saves him from the darkness. Not Selina.

Oooooh, how "seduction of the innocent"-esque.

ScottyQuick

07-02-2009, 08:41 AM

That is not Bruce and Selina. It's Dick Grayson's entry into Bruce's life that actually saves him from the darkness. Not Selina.

Bruce (http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp296/ScottyQuick/pg5.jpg) says (http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp296/ScottyQuick/pg6.jpg) otherwise (http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp296/ScottyQuick/pg7.jpg).

@Scandal: Good point! I'd forgotten about that.

WorstThingUS

07-02-2009, 08:58 AM

Bruce (http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp296/ScottyQuick/pg5.jpg) says (http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp296/ScottyQuick/pg6.jpg) otherwise (http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp296/ScottyQuick/pg7.jpg).

@Scandal: Good point! I'd forgotten about that.

Um, there's a decade of Dick Grayson (get your mind out of the gutter) before this. It's Dick who saves him (again, out of the gutter!) and if you'll excuse me I have to get to work on my thread as to how the DCU = Gossip Girl.

ryerye17

07-02-2009, 09:51 AM

Oh wait what about the Secret Six in Rent?
Scandal/Knockout as Joanne/Maureen

I'm sorry but Scandal/Knockout is definitely not Joanne/Maureen. Just because they're both lesbian couples doesn't mean that the relationship dynamic between both is the same.

ScottyQuick

07-02-2009, 02:04 PM

I'm sorry but Scandal/Knockout is definitely not Joanne/Maureen. Just because they're both lesbian couples doesn't mean that the relationship dynamic between both is the same.

I can see it. Knockout cheats on Scandal in front of her, not knowing that she'll be mad, and Scandal flips out. They get back together, though.

(although I still think Babs/Dinah is closer)

ScottyQuick

07-02-2009, 02:05 PM

Um, there's a decade of Dick Grayson (get your mind out of the gutter) before this. It's Dick who saves him (again, out of the gutter!) and if you'll excuse me I have to get to work on my thread as to how the DCU = Gossip Girl.

Um, Bruce says explicitly that it's Selina who reaches in. Selina is in his life before Dick is.

ORLY? That sounds interesting. I hope to see the reasons behind your idea.

hichaec

07-02-2009, 03:57 PM

I don't know, I just can't see Bruce as being Roger. Maybe it's been too long since I've seen the show (I think I saw it in...2003? 2004?), but it seems to me that Roger's main story arc (and his primary motivation) comes from a place of self-actualization. I remember finding that to be an integral part of the character; while waiting to die, he wants to only reach the absolute height of his potential and then to go out in a flash, perhaps leaving some scorch marks behind.

As his arc progresses this becomes less true, but even his love for Mimi is intensely inward-focused, which is the source of a lot of their conflict. Even with regard to accepting her feelings, he is more concerned with "but how does this affect me" as opposed to "how does this affect us" or even "how does this affect everyone." That's basically the opposite of how I see Bruce dealing with others people. He might alienate them, but it isn't just because of personal damage and discomfort, you know? :)

Bruce (or at least, my interpretation of the character) is also more about lasting change. While being Batman does have some elements of personal satisfaction for him, I really do think he is much more outward-focused in his motivation. Basically, I think he is who he is more out of a desire to help the world and humanity attain its greatest potential (or at least to prevent it from being squandered), rather than to help himself become the best possible version of Bruce Wayne.

Furthermore, tragedy spurs Bruce to act and to become a force of change, while it only makes Roger hole himself up and ignore the world. Yes, they both meet people who help them realize the world might be all right after all, but their methods of coping - their characterization, basically - are still miles and miles apart.

They just don't seem very alike to me, I'm sorry. I don't see Selina as Mimi for very similar reasons.

While their situations could perhaps be described as similar, I don't really think their characters are. And I agree with Infra-man - if you generalize enough, most any story could resemble any other. I'm sure, with a vague enough summary, I could make aspects of Batman seem eerily similar to those of Harry Potter, The Scarlet Letter, or American Pastoral. ;)

WorstThingUS

07-02-2009, 05:33 PM

Um, Bruce says explicitly that it's Selina who reaches in. Selina is in his life before Dick is.

At this point in his life. Ten years after Dick Grayson first came along. Alfred states in Robin: Year One that it was Dick Grayson who brought life back into Wayne mansion. That Dick saved him from his personal darkness has been repeated numerous times in explaining the Batman/Robin dynamic. Were it not for this, he could hardly have gone on to open himself romantically to Selina.

ORLY? That sounds interesting. I hope to see the reasons behind your idea.

Superman coming back from the dead is sooooo Serena coming back from boarding school and Batman is "B" as in Blair, and with some grease and a shoehorn I'll make the rest work too.

ScottyQuick

07-02-2009, 07:03 PM

@hichaec: Wow, that's a really thoughtful post. You're definitely right that Bruce is focused on making the world around him a better place, whereas Roger is focused on making himself a better person, but I'm not sure if I agree about how Bruce worries about how relationships affect others. I mean, Devin Grayson's or Paul Dini's does, but look at how Loeb's did when he first kissed Selina: by thinking about how he was so alone, and how now he's not.

Thanks for the post :)

Superman coming back from the dead is sooooo Serena coming back from boarding school and Batman is "B" as in Blair, and with some grease and a shoehorn I'll make the rest work too.

That's pretty silly logic. It's a shame you're not comparing character arcs and history.

hichaec

07-02-2009, 08:27 PM

I mean, Devin Grayson's or Paul Dini's does, but look at how Loeb's did when he first kissed Selina: by thinking about how he was so alone, and how now he's not.

It should come to no surprise to you, then, to hear that I prefer both Grayson's and Dini's (who are two of my favorite Batman writers, incidentally) Batman to Loeb's. Don't get me wrong, I do love some Batman stories Loeb has written and I'll take The Long Halloween over Year One any day of the week, but his characterization doesn't hit home for me the way some others do.

At any rate, finding analogues to DC characters in popular media (or any sort of narrative, really, be it highbrow or low) isn't going to be difficult in general. There are times when Batman seems almost pure archetype, after all. :) I'm sure one could easily watch Gossip Girl and pick out "the Batman" of the series. Unless there's some really constructive thinking going on - that is, unless it really brings something peculiar to light about the characters in question - it seems to me to just be silly fun. (Which is fine, of course.)

WorstThingUS

07-02-2009, 10:27 PM

That's pretty silly logic.

Go ahead and throw stones in your glass house...

As other posters have noted, the DCU is filled with archetypes like most popular fiction you can make it fit to most anything if you want, be it RENT or Gossip Girl, so long as you only acknowledge what agrees with your premise and ignore what does not---like all of Bruce's other relationships, like Talia, Silver St. Cloud and Julie Madison. Selina is far from the only woman he's opened his heart to.

ScottyQuick

07-02-2009, 10:49 PM

It should come to no surprise to you, then, to hear that I prefer both Grayson's and Dini's (who are two of my favorite Batman writers, incidentally) Batman to Loeb's. Don't get me wrong, I do love some Batman stories Loeb has written and I'll take The Long Halloween over Year One any day of the week, but his characterization doesn't hit home for me the way some others do.

At any rate, finding analogues to DC characters in popular media (or any sort of narrative, really, be it highbrow or low) isn't going to be difficult in general. There are times when Batman seems almost pure archetype, after all. :) I'm sure one could easily watch Gossip Girl and pick out "the Batman" of the series. Unless there's some really constructive thinking going on - that is, unless it really brings something peculiar to light about the characters in question - it seems to me to just be silly fun. (Which is fine, of course.)

Heh, me too. Those are actually all things I agree with. Are you a Scans Daily citizen?

like all of Bruce's other relationships, like Talia

The woman who raped him?

Silver St. Cloud

The woman who left him?

and Julie Madison.

Who's been seen like twice post-crisis?

Selina is far from the only woman he's opened his heart to.

She's the one who opened his heart, though, and the one that didn't stab it.