Wrestling Q's For Steve

[Hanzo the Razor]

Favorite In-Ring Wrestler?

Favorite Wrestler on the Mic?

Favorite Overall Wrestler?

Favorite Match?

Favorite Feud?

[Steven Grant]

Favorite In-Ring Wrestler?

Today? John Morrison. Ever? Bret Hart.

Favorite Wrestler on the Mic?

Don't really have a favorite at the moment, but the best guy on the stick ever was The Rock. He was so entertaining talking he never even needed to get in a wrestling ring to maintain a rabid following. Mick Foley would be a close second. I'd maybe have been inclined to add Ric Flair, who was great on the mic, if every rap he ever gave wasn't exactly the same one. And Randy Savage gave the absolute best utter gibberish interviews ever. You needed an enigma machine to decipher what he was saying (as opposed to, say, the Ultimate Warrior, who still didn't make any sense even after you deciphered everything) but he always got it across great.

Favorite Overall Wrestler?

Bret Hart. Randy Savage would come in second.

Favorite Match?

Hart vs. Austin at Wrestlemania 13, where they turned Bret heel and Austin face in the course of the match. Just watched it again two days ago for the first time in years and it's still the single best wrestling match ever.

Favorite Feud?

Took me awhile to sort through things like Midnight Express vs. Dynamic Dudes (best punch line ever), Austin vs. McMahon, Austin vs. Hart/Hart Foundation, Savage vs. Hogan, etc., but probably Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart, which almost never produced less than a great match and played out really well with a more compelling and believable storyline than most.

- Grant

[GHalecki]

It is really tough to beat Bret Hart in terms of ring ability. The match he had in WCW with Benoit in the ring where Owen died was phenominal.

Can't beat the Rock or the others you mentioned on the mic, but I would say that Kevin Nash would be up there too.

It is funny how tough of a thing it is to learn to do that. I have a friend that used to work for ECW way back in the day (one of the FBI). The guy has all of the charisma and personality to make you think he would be able to perform with the best of them, but once in front of the camera, he just could not get into a groove and came out stiff.

[Steven Grant]

but I would say that Kevin Nash would be up there too.

I dunno. Except for the early run of the Outsiders in WCW, Kevin always bored me. He talks well enough, but his whole shtick is to blandly put down his opponent as not the slightest competition and downplay exactly what he's supposed to be selling while telling the world how great he is. It wasn't especially effective heelism, and he does the same shtick endlessly. I'd place him higher than Hulk Hogan but I wouldn't say he was great. He was a guy who gave interviews that killed matches. Always thought Scott Hall was a much better interview than Nash, at least when Scott was sober.

It is funny how tough of a thing it is to learn to do that. I have a friend that used to work for ECW way back in the day (one of the FBI). The guy has all of the charisma and personality to make you think he would be able to perform with the best of them, but once in front of the camera, he just could not get into a groove and came out stiff.

Stage fright, mainly. All wrestlers should really do what Chris Jericho did and take improv classes. Not that WWE lets very many - HHH, maybe - improv anymore. When you recite pre-written speeches, you tend to speak stiffly unless you've had a lot of history giving speeches. When you improv, if you're any good at it, you sound natural, and the emotion your projecting flows into your speech. In wrestling, emotion counts for a lot but people putting all their energy into remember a rigid set of words rather than a loose set of talking points don't put any energy into getting emotions across, and everything sounds false. Watching the Morrison-Edge "debate" on Smackdown last Friday was interesting, because Morrison's big weakness yet is his promos, but you could tell when Morrison was letting his own skills carry him and when he was reciting pre-written lines or words, because the former flowed very convincingly but the latter always sounded forced and stilted.

- Grant

[Gavin Higginbotham, BotF]

Watching the Morrison-Edge "debate" on Smackdown last Friday was interesting, because Morrison's big weakness yet is his promos, but you could tell when Morrison was letting his own skills carry him and when he was reciting pre-written lines or words, because the former flowed very convincingly but the latter always sounded forced and stilted.

- Grant

That confrontation was the first time Morrison really cracked me up when he did the "Canadian accent" and he seemed to be a bit more confident on the mic. I guess he realises that now he hasn't got The Miz to work the mic a lot, he needs to work at his own mic skills. Loved the match too. Edge working a program with Morrison would do Morrison wonders in terms of furthering his push.

[Hanzo the Razor]

For me--

Favorite In-Ring Wrestler- Chris Benoit.

Favorite Mic Skills- The Rock. Runners up-- Randy Savage and Hulk Hogan until the mid-80's.

Favorite Overall- Kurt Angle.

Favorite Match- Kurt Angle vs Chris Benoit (2 out of 3 falls)

Favorite Feud- Stone Cold vs Vince McMahon

[Gavin Higginbotham, BotF]

Mine:

Favorite In-Ring Wrestler- Bret Hart.

Favorite Mic Skills- The Rock. Stone Cold and DX Triple H and Shawn were funny.

Favorite Overall- Bret Hard, with Stone Cold a close second.

Favorite Match- Bret v Stone Cold (WM 13)

Favorite Feud- Stone Cold vs Vince McMahon, Stone Cold vs Harts, Stone Cold vs anyone. His feuds were great fun

[Steven Grant]

That confrontation was the first time Morrison really cracked me up when he did the "Canadian accent" and he seemed to be a bit more confident on the mic. I guess he realises that now he hasn't got The Miz to work the mic a lot, he needs to work at his own mic skills. Loved the match too. Edge working a program with Morrison would do Morrison wonders in terms of furthering his push.

I think he always knew that, and prior to/during his teaming with The Miz, he was never all that bad on the stick, but it's terribly obvious that much of the time the writers have been tightly scripting his promos - they do this with practically everyone - to put over the whole "Doors/Shaman Of Sexy" shtick and making him mutter lots of trippy gibberish. The Edge confrontation sounded like they told him to just go out there and wing it in response to what Edge says, since I think Edge is one of the guys they don't script, just work out talking points with. Where Morrison just bantered with Edge worked great. Where Morrison went out of his way to insert catch phrases or his character were stiff and intrusive. But I think it proves he can ad lib, at least in an interchange, just fine.

- Grant

[Gavin Higginbotham, BotF]

The Edge confrontation sounded like they told him to just go out there and wing it in response to what Edge says, since I think Edge is one of the guys they don't script, just work out talking points with. Where Morrison just bantered with Edge worked great. Where Morrison went out of his way to insert catch phrases or his character were stiff and intrusive. But I think it proves he can ad lib, at least in an interchange, just fine.

- Grant

I like seeing Edge and Jericho interact on the mic at the moment, they're jockeying for the position as top heel on Smackdown and it's good to watch. Edge is pretty damn funny sometimes and Jericho amuses me too with his arrogant/snobby schtick. I love Smackdown right now.

[Steven Grant]

I like seeing Edge and Jericho interact on the mic at the moment, they're jockeying for the position as top heel on Smackdown and it's good to watch. Edge is pretty damn funny sometimes and Jericho amuses me too with his arrogant/snobby schtick. I love Smackdown right now.

The funny thing is that neither of them are the top heel on Smackdown right now, and neither of their characters know it. But both Edge & Jericho have been forced to really up their game on the mike because, though it's hard to tell watching them, both have to temper their physicality in the ring because they're all banged up. Which doesn't stop them from both being incredible heels, and pound for pound Edge may be the top guy in the business right now, and Jericho isn't far behind.

[filkertom]

Holy mack'ul. I just joined up today, to find that Mr. Grant and Co. are wrestling fans. Yay.
Favorite In-Ring Wrestler?Shawn Michaels or Chris Jericho. Although I could make a strong case for Randy Savage or Ric Flair, especially the late 80s Flair.
Favorite Wrestler on the Mic?The Rock. No question.
Favorite Overall Wrestler?Any of the five above guys. If it came down to only one, The Rock.Favorite Match?Oh jeez. Way too many possible, but that one ECW match between Rob Van Dam and Jerry Lynn, the one where they did five more minutes, is pretty high up there. So's the triple-threat match at WrestleMania where Chris Benoit (why Chris why) won the title. Heck, I could dig out the first tag match with Hogan and Piper (v. Savage and Adrian Adonis... or was it Adonis and Mr. Fuji? I think maybe the latter), and their... incredibly aggressive tagging.
Favorite Feud?Sting-Flair in the late 80s. Savage-Warrior. Magnum T.A.-Nikita Koloff, especially when, after Magnum's car wreck, Nikita turned face "out of respect for Magnum". Fantastic storyline.

[Village Idiot]

In wrestling, emotion counts for a lot but people putting all their energy into remember a rigid set of words rather than a loose set of talking points don't put any energy into getting emotions across, and everything sounds false. - Grant

Loose set of talking points -- that's how Letterman (and maybe others) does his monologues. Sometimes you can see the cue cards. 3 or 4 short phrases become a minute or so of monologue.

And what am I doing reading a wrestling thread?

[Hanzo the Razor]

BTW, Steve, do you really think Austin is a bigger headliner than Hogan?

...injuries brought on by the more demandingly physical style the wars encouraged sidelined the biggest headliner wrestling has ever known, Stone Cold Steve Austin, and his only real competition for popularity, Dwayne 'The Rock' Johnson...

Just from longetivity, it seems Hogan's the bigger draw, but I'm no expert.

[Steven Grant]

BTW, Steve, do you really think Austin is a bigger headliner than Hogan? Just from longetivity, it seems Hogan's the bigger draw, but I'm no expert.

Hogan doesn't really draw money anymore, while Austin even doing a walk-on for a pay per view would jump buys. But if you compare their heydays, Austin brought in tons more money than Hogan. Hogan's audience was big compared to what wrestling was used to, but Austin's audience was big compared to Hogan's.

Neither of them could open a movie, though.

- Grant

[Hanzo the Razor]

Interesting.

Out of curiosity, why Bret Hart?

I tend to find his matches a bit dull-- his moveset seems pretty limited and there are more exciting technical wrestlers who have much more interesting arrays of offensive manuvers and who can come up with genuinely surprising and brilliant counters and improvisations. Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero all come to mind. I watched two Tige rMask matches in a row recently-- one against the Dynamite Kid and one against Bret-- the Dynamite Kid one blew the Bret one out of the water. I felt Tiger had to fight to keep things interesting as Bret might have just relied on boring weardown holds otherwise.

Out of the ring, his personality is pretty bland and somewhat boring. His "best there is..." rap is pretty repetitive.

To me, it seems like the man's much more interesting as far as behind the scenes of wrestling goes.

I only ask because I respect your opinion and am wodnering if I need to take another look at Bret.

[Steven Grant]

I tend to find his matches a bit dull-- his moveset seems pretty limited and there are more exciting technical wrestlers who have much more interesting arrays of offensive manuvers and who can come up with genuinely surprising and brilliant counters and improvisations. Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero all come to mind.

Benoit and Eddy will always be way up on my list of favorite wrestlers. Kurt's wrestling I always found a little mechanical, and his persona always seemed manufactured. I think that's Kurt's big flaw, really: I'd rather see him playing a character more based on the real Kurt Angle.

Which may have something to do with why I liked Bret. Bear in mind, though I didn't realize it at the time, the first match that ever caught my fancy was Randy Savage vs. Bret Hart, back when Randy was chasing Bret's stablemate Honky Tonk Man for the I-C belt. At the time McMahon pushed the real cartoons, like Honky, Hogan, Savage (as I mentioned, Savage was my favorite at the time because he could have great matches and his in-ring persona was just so wonky & fun), and in the midst of all this, Bret, esp. during his face runs, just had more of an air of, for lack of a better term, authenticity about him. The other guys were just playing, but this was a real wrestler.

Recall also that in the '80s all WWF wrestlers were expected to use very few, very simple moves in the ring and use them all in matches that were basically all the same, so if you saw those matches, sure, you'd probably say Bret only uses the same five moves, but when he got into longer matches he could do phenomenal things. He's also really great at ring psychology and match storylines; the core Bret Hart storyline is a guy who's not the biggest guy in the business, not the strongest guy, not the nastiest guy, but he's tough and he's the best wrestler and no matter what gets thrown at him, somehow he'll find a way to outwrestle his opponents. Probably. There was always room for doubt in Bret Hart matches; he did occasionally lose. Unlike most other WWF faces, he wasn't a superman.

So that's what I liked about him. I can understand why you'd prefer Chris and Eddy, but the era they're part of is a time of endless hi-spots, and exciting as most of their matches were, that's mainly what they were. Not because neither were capable of telling stories with their matches, but because it had been decided by the powers that be (and many fans) that such was passe.

I watched two Tige rMask matches in a row recently-- one against the Dynamite Kid and one against Bret-- the Dynamite Kid one blew the Bret one out of the water. I felt Tiger had to fight to keep things interesting as Bret might have just relied on boring weardown holds otherwise.

Bear in mind that a) this was fairly early in Bret's pro career, and one of the first times he had wrestled outside Calgary, and b) when you're the new guy and you go to Japan, you do what they tell you to do. Dynamite, on the other hand, had gone there several times and was a bona fide star there; they could let him go hard against their big star Tiger Mask and everyone would survive it just fine. You didn't have a new guy coming in, basically an unknown there, and have him getting points on Tiger Mask unless he was already a well-known international star, which at that point Bret wasn't. As I recall, he talks at some length about his couple of Japanese tours and maybe discusses matches with Tiger Mask. Anyway, most wrestlers, particularly lower-card wrestlers, rarely have the matches they'd like to have, they have the matches they're told to have, and that's as true today as ever.

Out of the ring, his personality is pretty bland and somewhat boring. His "best there is..." rap is pretty repetitive.

That was his shtick. Whadaya want? You want Austin to stop saying, "And that's the bottom line, 'cause Stone Cold said so!"? I never thought of Bret's persona as boring, but as straightforward. He always sounded like a guy who wasn't blustering, wasn't bragging, wasn't going on endless gibberish diatribes or sounding half-insane, just giving us the cold, unadorned facts. I liked that, and it was very different for that era. In fact, a Steve Austin promo is basically a ramped-up version of a Bret Hart promo, with Austin sounding pissed-off where Bret would sound annoyed that he even had to spell out something (whatever he was saying at the time) that was so obvious... including that he was the best there is, the best there was and the best there ever will be! But in both cases, they were spelling out the cold unvarnished truth, like it or not.

Oh, yeah, in terms of wrestling: Bret could also make virtually any opponent look really good in the ring, which is a dying art in wrestling. He got good matches out of Kevin Nash, for god's sake.

To me, it seems like the man's much more interesting as far as behind the scenes of wrestling goes.

That's interesting, yes, but all that came later for me.

I only ask because I respect your opinion and am wondering if I need to take another look at Bret.

See if you can borrow the three-disk set the WWE put out sometime in the last couple years. A lot of his better matches are on it. If you don't get it, I can understand that; maybe you had to be there.

If you want to see really repetitive matches and interviews, watch Ric Flair matches. How the guy got to be considered the greatest wrestler in history on the strength of about five moves and four lines of dialogue I'll never understand...

- Grant

(Well, that should start a small firestorm...)

[steve2275]

carlito or primo?

[Steven Grant]

carlito or primo?

Isn't that a little like asking "Jesse or Festus?"

Carlito, by the way.

- Grant

[steve2275]

jericho's hair
long or short?

[Steven Grant]

jericho's hair
long or short?

Does it matter?

- Grant

[Gavin Higginbotham, BotF]

He's also really great at ring psychology and match storylines; the core Bret Hart storyline is a guy who's not the biggest guy in the business, not the strongest guy, not the nastiest guy, but he's tough and he's the best wrestler and no matter what gets thrown at him, somehow he'll find a way to outwrestle his opponents. Probably. There was always room for doubt in Bret Hart matches; he did occasionally lose. Unlike most other WWF faces, he wasn't a superman.


Yeah, that's pretty much the reason I love Bret too. He's kind of like the Captain America of wrestling in that it doesn't matter if you're a highflying guy like Shawn Michaels, or a big guy like Nash or Sycho Sid, or an impossibly fat guy like Yokozuna or a tough guy like Stone Cold... Bret could still find a way to beat them.

And yeah, his statement of "Best there is, etc" was brilliant. He didn't need to lay down a huge amount of verbal smackdown on his opponent. Him saying that simple line let his opponents know what they were up against and that's simply because Bret was telling the truth. And they knew it.

[cactusmaac]

Bret made wrestling seem genuine. When he became champ, the WWF\E for the first time consistently started putting on title matches which were also great bouts and not just cartoon heroics.

I remember him having a match in '95 with some pirate gimmick guy while the Clique dominance was in full effect. Even with a joke feud like that his match was the best one on the card.

[steve2275]

Does it matter?
- Grant
dont you mean
it doesnt matter the length of jerocho's hair

[Gavin Higginbotham, BotF]

I remember him having a match in '95 with some pirate gimmick guy while the Clique dominance was in full effect. Even with a joke feud like that his match was the best one on the card.

Pierre! Yeah, that was an awful fued, poor Bret. I agree though, he still even managed to make those matches work and make his opponent seem like a threat.

[Cody H]

Pierre! Yeah, that was an awful fued, poor Bret. I agree though, he still even managed to make those matches work and make his opponent seem like a threat.The feud was predicated on the fact that Pierre stole Bret's Jacket (Pierre was a pirate, you see; pirates steal things... yeah...). But they did have some excellent matches. I may be in the minority here but I always though Pierre had some solid in-ring skills that he never really got to showcase.

[Steven Grant]

Yeah, that's pretty much the reason I love Bret too. He's kind of like the Captain America of wrestling in that it doesn't matter if you're a highflying guy like Shawn Michaels, or a big guy like Nash or Sycho Sid, or an impossibly fat guy like Yokozuna or a tough guy like Stone Cold... Bret could still find a way to beat them.

Damn, I forgot he had a good match with Sid. He deserves the title of "greatest of all time" for that alone...

And yeah, his statement of "Best there is, etc" was brilliant. He didn't need to lay down a huge amount of verbal smackdown on his opponent. Him saying that simple line let his opponents know what they were up against and that's simply because Bret was telling the truth. And they knew it.

Bret freely admits stealing that line from the film THE NATURAL, but his straightforward delivery of it, with just that little hint of exasperation that he even had to say it, was just the right touch that delivered his character completely, even if you'd never seen him before.

- Grant

[Steven Grant]

dont you mean
it doesnt matter the length of jerocho's hair

If I were the Rock that might be what I'd mean.

But I'm not.

- Grant

[Steven Grant]

Pierre! Yeah, that was an awful fued, poor Bret. I agree though, he still even managed to make those matches work and make his opponent seem like a threat.

Yeah, that was during Vince's moment of panic when he decided what he really needed were a lot of "fresh" wrestlers in '80s-style cartoon gimmicks per The Model or The Matador. Former Quebecer Pierre, who really wasn't a bad wrestler so there was at least something to work with, was brought in as a pirate, and stole "Bret's cherished ring jacket" to build a feud. I think in his book Bret called it the most stupid fued he was ever given, but you work with what you've got. I forget who ultimately got the part, but at that time Vince also wanted to bring in Chris Jericho, whose dad was a Canadian hockey star, under a hockey gimmick called The Goon. Jericho wisely figured that wouldn't do wonders for his career and turned Vince down, which at the time was almost unheard of in wrestling. That may have also been around the time a very cleaned up Steve Austin was brought in (and landed a resounding thud) as Million Dollar Man-protege The Ringmaster. Curiously, Vince didn't give him a circus gimmick...

- Grant

[Steven Grant]

The feud was predicated on the fact that Pierre stole Bret's Jacket (Pierre was a pirate, you see; pirates steal things... yeah...). But they did have some excellent matches. I may be in the minority here but I always though Pierre had some solid in-ring skills that he never really got to showcase.

I agree: under the gimmick, Pierre was a very solid meat'n'potatoes wrestler. Kind of similar to Jim "The Anvil" Neidhart, without the psycho overtones. The fact is ever promotion needs a certain amount of that kind of wrestler to give the showboats someone to work with on their way up.

- Grant

[GHalecki]

It is so tough to pick absolute bests/favorites, so I will just throw a few good ones out there for consideration.

Favorite In-Ring Wrestler?
Melinko, Saturn, Bret, Benoit, Dynamite Kid, Lance Storm

Favorite Wrestler on the Mic?
Piper (I can't believe nobody has mentioned him), Jericho, Lawler (more as an announcer though), Triple H

Favorite Overall Wrestler?
Sting, Mr Perfect

Favorite Match?
Melinko/Benoit vs Henning/Wyndham in a cage
(IRC the young guys won by combining a texas cloverleaf with a flying head butt off the top of the cage)

Favorite Feud?
Hogan / Piper

[Hanzo the Razor]

Benoit and Eddy will always be way up on my list of favorite wrestlers. Kurt's wrestling I always found a little mechanical, and his persona always seemed manufactured. I think that's Kurt's big flaw, really: I'd rather see him playing a character more based on the real Kurt Angle.

What do you mean by "mechanical"? I personally felt that Kurt had a real gift for improvisation; I loved how he could counter out of anything by picking a leg out of nowhere or by rolling out of a submission and rolling into one of his own. I thought there was a lot of naturalism in his wrestling style that came from intensity and his real-wrestling background.

I also really enjoy Kurt's character. He was hilarious when he wanted to be and darkly intense other times, with his "I'll break your fuckin' ankle" stuff. I thought Kurt was consistently entertaining on the mic and really built several strong rivalries in his WWF career.

So that's what I liked about him. I can understand why you'd prefer Chris and Eddy, but the era they're part of is a time of endless hi-spots, and exciting as most of their matches were, that's mainly what they were. Not because neither were capable of telling stories with their matches, but because it had been decided by the powers that be (and many fans) that such was passe.

I think I just enjoy the pace of their wrestling more and the variety of moves. I just find a lot of older wrestling boring; I don't want to see a guy in an armbar for 10 minutes. I prefer chain-wrestling and sudden reversals, fast paced action and intensity.

I just find that Benoit, Angle, Guerrero, Jericho can keep a match fast paced and exciting and also tell stories. I don't like it when a wrestler beats up on a guy for what seems like an eternity; I like it when momentum shifts suddenly and repeatedly through a match. It makes the ending all the more surprising and interesting. There's an "edge of your seat" quality a lot of older matches don't possess.

In fact, a Steve Austin promo is basically a ramped-up version of a Bret Hart promo, with Austin sounding pissed-off where Bret would sound annoyed that he even had to spell out something (whatever he was saying at the time) that was so obvious... including that he was the best there is, the best there was and the best there ever will be! But in both cases, they were spelling out the cold unvarnished truth, like it or not.

You're right-- most wrestlers just stick to their schtick, even the "greats" like the Rock and Chris Jericho or whoever.

I suppose I find Bret's style to be stiff and dull, but that's a taste issue. Even if Austin is a "ramped up" Bret Hart, the "ramped up" part is what makes it interesting. It ain't the song, it's the singer. And as a singer he's monotoned and uninteresting.

See if you can borrow the three-disk set the WWE put out sometime in the last couple years. A lot of his better matches are on it. If you don't get it, I can understand that; maybe you had to be there.

If you want to see really repetitive matches and interviews, watch Ric Flair matches. How the guy got to be considered the greatest wrestler in history on the strength of about five moves and four lines of dialogue I'll never understand...


Probably because those same lines and moves had tremendous entertainment value for fans of the 80's. I bet it's sort of like the Rock-- it's all the same "Know Your Role" and "Lay the Smackdown" chatter combined with the same old open handed punches, spinebuster, and sharpshooter (which oddly places no pressure on the lower back, but whatever).

That, and Flair had really great guys like Steamboat and Dusty Rhodes to work with. It's kind of like how Muhammad ali was great not only because he was good but because he had Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Ken Norton, etc. to face off against.

[Hanzo the Razor]

Oh, and I'll check out that Bret DVD.

[Charles RB]

Have you read any of Paul O'Brien's pre-match analyses? (http://ifdestroyed.blogspot.com/search/label/wrestling)

[Steven Grant]

Have you read any of Paul O'Brien's pre-match analyses? (http://ifdestroyed.blogspot.com/search/label/wrestling)

No, had no idea Paul was a wrestling fan.

- Grant

[JohnPopa]

If you want to see really repetitive matches and interviews, watch Ric Flair matches. How the guy got to be considered the greatest wrestler in history on the strength of about five moves and four lines of dialogue I'll never understand...

Flair had the advantage of always leaving a territory before his schtick got old. As I'm sure you know (but some newer fans may not,) the touring NWA champion in the 80's would show up, do one quick program with a top local guy (generally working him to a draw or getting a cheap heel win) and then move on to the next territory where the people there probably didn't know he was doing the exact same angle and the exact same match he'd just done in the previous territory.

I understand he had to be repetitive in the 80's because he was often working with people he barely knew and knew he was working for an audience that didn't see him but once or twice a year -- what I don't understand is why he never figured out that things were changing and didn't have anything else up his sleeves once the complexion of the wrestling business changed to a more permanent, national scene.

[Steven Grant]

I understand he had to be repetitive in the 80's because he was often working with people he barely knew and knew he was working for an audience that didn't see him but once or twice a year -- what I don't understand is why he never figured out that things were changing and didn't have anything else up his sleeves once the complexion of the wrestling business changed to a more permanent, national scene.

Thing was, he was perfectly capable of it. On a few occasions - notably the climax of Sting's gawdawful feud with "The Black Scorpion" (whose story they started, complete with plot references to a mysterious past with Sting) without the slightest idea of who the mystery heel would ultimately be - Flair performed completely outside his routine. In his best year, the 1989/1990 feuds with Ricky Steamboat and Terry Funk, his pay per view matches were exciting and rarely played to shtick. I suspect there were two elements to his decision (assuming it was conscious) to go to shtick: it was a physically safe style, and the Flair marks out there wanted to see the routine over and over and over. WwwwwwOOOOOOOO!

- Grant

[JohnPopa]

Thing was, he was perfectly capable of it. On a few occasions - notably the climax of Sting's gawdawful feud with "The Black Scorpion" (whose story they started, complete with plot references to a mysterious past with Sting) without the slightest idea of who the mystery heel would ultimately be - Flair performed completely outside his routine. In his best year, the 1989/1990 feuds with Ricky Steamboat and Terry Funk, his pay per view matches were exciting and rarely played to shtick. I suspect there were two elements to his decision (assuming it was conscious) to go to shtick: it was a physically safe style, and the Flair marks out there wanted to see the routine over and over and over. WwwwwwOOOOOOOO!

- Grant

And you know there's no bigger Flair mark than ... Flair. I'm sure he amused himself to no one end every night, showing everyone how it's done.

[steve2275]

If I were the Rock that might be what I'd mean.

But I'm not.

- Grant
fair enough

[Steven Grant]

And you know there's no bigger Flair mark than ... Flair.

Oh, absolutely. But that's pretty common for many of that era. There's certainly no bigger Bret Hart mark than Bret Hart. There was no bigger Chris Benoit mark than Chris Benoit. Shawn Micheals is easily the biggest Shawn Michaels mark, Terry Bollea's the biggest Hulk Hogan mark there is by far, Randy Poffo's the biggest Randy Savage mark, I'd suspect HHH was the biggest HHH mark if Stephanie McMahon-Helmsley weren't in the picture, and all these men pale as marks for themselves in comparison to the Ultimate Warrior. I don't think Dwayne Johnson was ever particularly a Rock mark, which is why he was able to do so many things with the character. Mick Foley's certainly no Mick Foley mark, though probably on some days every wrestler is his/her own biggest mark...

- Grant

[midnight138]

I forget who ultimately got the part, but at that time Vince also wanted to bring in Chris Jericho, whose dad was a Canadian hockey star, under a hockey gimmick called The Goon. Jericho wisely figured that wouldn't do wonders for his career and turned Vince down, which at the time was almost unheard of in wrestling. That may have also been around the time a very cleaned up Steve Austin was brought in (and landed a resounding thud) as Million Dollar Man-protege The Ringmaster. Curiously, Vince didn't give him a circus gimmick...

- Grant

That was "Wild" Bill Irwin taking the quick cash towards the end of his career. Curiously, people tend to call these "80s gimmicks", but you'll notice there weren't really a whole lot of these types of characters around the WWF of the 80s. There were just more colorful performers than had previously been seen out of the "New York territory" that usually produced very meat-and-potatoes type "wrasslers". Actually, the character/gimmick wrestlers were around long before the 80s and in far more abundance during the territory days. The characters were far more contrived, too. Wolfmen, mummies, spacemen, and even Batmen prevailed in the 50s and 60s and there have been more characters per capita out of the Memphis territory throughout history than anywhere else.

It wasn't until the desperation of the early 90s wrestling "drought" that more of these character gimmicks started to appear in the WWF. With the exception of the Undertaker, they never work out, either. But every few years, when there is a downturn in WWF/E business, there seems to be an influx of them (latest example is probably a few years ago with Boogeyman, Mordecai, and Pirate Burchill, and several others all popping up). I know the creative team of the WWF/E has changed contantly over the years, but they all follow the edict of the boss, Vince McMahon.

Mr. Grant, as a writer perhaps you can answer this question: What is it that causes a creator to continue to, in times of desperation, fall back on ideas that have never worked in the past with the hope that it will somehow miraculously click "this time"?

[Steven Grant]

That's weird. Your message wasn't there before, and suddenly now it is.

What do you mean by "mechanical"? I personally felt that Kurt had a real gift for improvisation; I loved how he could counter out of anything by picking a leg out of nowhere or by rolling out of a submission and rolling into one of his own. I thought there was a lot of naturalism in his wrestling style that came from intensity and his real-wrestling background.

But it's a mechanical kind of "improvisation"; watch enough Kurt Angle matches and you realize he's "improvising" the same thing over and over and over. Again, though, what you're talking about had a lot to do with the era. Prior to, oh, 1994, even the appearance of improvisation in matches, certainly in WWf, was pretty much verboten, except in odd pay per view matches. It was mainly Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels who broke that barrier; a lot of Hart matches during his second title run start featuring sudden twists that shift the direction of the match. By the time McMahon's in full-fledged battle with WCW for supremacy - late '97-mid-'98 - the ethic shifts firmly from giving the fans "the match they want to see" to shocking the hell out of fans as often as you can pull it off. That faded out for a little while, but guys like Edge, Jericho, Christian, Morrison & Punk (and esp. Jericho) are really starting to bring it back into fashion (which may be why Smackdown and ECW both play as better shows than Raw these days). But as far as I can tell, McMahon likes that control, he doesn't like surprises, so I'd expect a crackdown on it anytime now.

I also really enjoy Kurt's character. He was hilarious when he wanted to be and darkly intense other times, with his "I'll break your fuckin' ankle" stuff. I thought Kurt was consistently entertaining on the mic and really built several strong rivalries in his WWF career.

I dunno... he never sounds "real" to me, he always sounds like someone reading prefab lines. That's what I mean by mechanical; his promos always sounded like he was reading from a script, not speaking from the heart. "Oh, it's true, it's true, it's damn true" always sounded much more irritating to me than "the best there is, the best there was and the best there ever will be" for that reason. The only emotion heel Kurt ever gets across in an interview is indignant outrage. It gets tiresome. Plus I never got the impression Kurt was very good at carrying other wrestlers in the ring, and got along best when paired with expert wrestlers like Edge (who's a much better talker than Kurt) who didn't need carrying.

And moving to TNA exposed all of Kurt's weaknesses, to the point where he's now as much of a cartoon as Hogan ever was.

I think I just enjoy the pace of their wrestling more and the variety of moves. I just find a lot of older wrestling boring; I don't want to see a guy in an armbar for 10 minutes. I prefer chain-wrestling and sudden reversals, fast paced action and intensity.

I like those things too, but rest holds were there for a reason. Bret never went all that heavy on rest holds; other guys built their whole routines around them.

I just find that Benoit, Angle, Guerrero, Jericho can keep a match fast paced and exciting and also tell stories. I don't like it when a wrestler beats up on a guy for what seems like an eternity; I like it when momentum shifts suddenly and repeatedly through a match. It makes the ending all the more surprising and interesting. There's an "edge of your seat" quality a lot of older matches don't possess.

I agree, but there are older matches with those qualities. (Most of the Bret vs. Owen matches, for instance.) Guys like Benoit, Guerreto and Jericho learned the ring psychology of those matches. The problem is that a lot of the younger guys doing that kind of match don't have a clue what ring psychology is, and one random high spot after another gets just as dull as a match full of rest holds after awhile.

You're right-- most wrestlers just stick to their schtick, even the "greats" like the Rock and Chris Jericho or whoever.

Fortunately for the Rock, who deserves to be called a great if anyone does, his shtick was brilliant, endlessly funny, because it was extremely adaptable and he could run an almost psychotic gamut of emotions in the course of any match or interview and the sheer collision of them only emphasized the humor. I can tell Jericho's current thesaurus of insults approach comes from WWE management, not Jericho, because it's the same failed shtick they foisted on Lanny Poffo, Shane Douglas, Matt Stryker and others over the years. To Jericho's credit he's pretty much pulling it off, but you can still see discomfort in his interviews that wasn't there in earlier incarnations. But in the ring Jericho's probably got the loosest style going today, and it works great as a heel: less a ring technician than a guy willing to do anything at any moment to secure a win. So the style looks a lot more spontaneous than most, like he only thought of what he does half a second before he does it.

I suppose I find Bret's style to be stiff and dull, but that's a taste issue. Even if Austin is a "ramped up" Bret Hart, the "ramped up" part is what makes it interesting. It ain't the song, it's the singer. And as a singer he's monotoned and uninteresting.

Like I say, I guess you had to be there. I'd still rather re-watch a Bret Hart match than a Steve Austin match. Unless it's Austin vs. Hart. (I generally don't rewatch matches.)

Probably because those same lines and moves had tremendous entertainment value for fans of the 80's. I bet it's sort of like the Rock-- it's all the same "Know Your Role" and "Lay the Smackdown" chatter combined with the same old open handed punches, spinebuster, and sharpshooter (which oddly places no pressure on the lower back, but whatever).

The object of wrestling isn't to inflict pain on your opponent but to appear to inflict pain. Bret always made a big deal out of never seriously injuring anyone in a match (though I suspect he doth protest a bit too much on that one) and the whole Calgary style centers around the illusion of violence. (Believe it or not, the Calgary style was once considered the most brutal and violent in North America, and that's the tradition Bret comes out of.) In his book, Bret even jokes about the sharpshooter looking really painful, but a) it's not the slightest bit painful or dangerous, and is far tougher for the person slapping it on because it's very easy to lose your balance, and b) it's impossible to put on someone without that person's consent. But it looked good.

That, and Flair had really great guys like Steamboat and Dusty Rhodes to work with. It's kind of like how Muhammad ali was great not only because he was good but because he had Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Ken Norton, etc. to face off against.

That's something I thought about while washing up last night. Flair's best feuds were against Roddy Piper, Ricky Steamboat and Terry Funk. Not sure about Funk, but neither Piper nor Steamboat ever had a "standard" match routine, and were very adaptable wrestlers, in the way you describe. But it was guys like Flair and Rhodes, who had very standard, predictable matches, who became more widely renowned as great wrestlers... go figure...

- Grant

[Steven Grant]

That was "Wild" Bill Irwin taking the quick cash towards the end of his career. Curiously, people tend to call these "80s gimmicks", but you'll notice there weren't really a whole lot of these types of characters around the WWF of the 80s. There were just more colorful performers than had previously been seen out of the "New York territory" that usually produced very meat-and-potatoes type "wrasslers". Actually, the character/gimmick wrestlers were around long before the 80s and in far more abundance during the territory days. The characters were far more contrived, too. Wolfmen, mummies, spacemen, and even Batmen prevailed in the 50s and 60s and there have been more characters per capita out of the Memphis territory throughout history than anywhere else.

You're right, but c. '88 or so McMahon went on a binge of creating cartoon characters, turning Tito Santana into The Matador, Rick Martel into The Model, Jacques Rougeau into The Mountie, bringing in the American Indian Tatanka in full headdress and moccasins, Owen Hart as the masked & caped "superhero" Blue Blazer, the "sailor" Tugboat and I forget who else but there were gobs of them. Sure, Vince was clearly emulating the "classic" characters of early TV wrestling, but he has always had a fetish for that sort of gimmick character.

It wasn't until the desperation of the early 90s wrestling "drought" that more of these character gimmicks started to appear in the WWF. With the exception of the Undertaker, they never work out, either. But every few years, when there is a downturn in WWF/E business, there seems to be an influx of them (latest example is probably a few years ago with Boogeyman, Mordecai, and Pirate Burchill, and several others all popping up). I know the creative team of the WWF/E has changed contantly over the years, but they all follow the edict of the boss, Vince McMahon.

Right again. Like I said, McMahon will also fall back on that sort of thing in a pinch. The Undertaker mainly worked because it was so tailor-made for Calloway's personality, and brilliantly capitalized on his total inability to do a promo and utter lack of ring personality. (He obviously got much better at both later.) But most characters imposed on wrestlers were just stock bits, and those didn't work.

Mr. Grant, as a writer perhaps you can answer this question: What is it that causes a creator to continue to, in times of desperation, fall back on ideas that have never worked in the past with the hope that it will somehow miraculously click "this time"?

Probably several reasons. 1) We tend to remember things as working better than they did, especially when there's no one there to tell us otherwise. 2) We all have pet ideas that may not have gone over but we always felt they didn't get a fair shake and deserve another shot. 3) We figure since the current audience wasn't exposed to that idea, they'll think it's a new one now, and embrace it. (It happens sometimes.) 4) This time we're the ones doing it. 5) Desperation.

I believe it was Jim Cornette created the Boogeyman character in WWE's former farm league, OVW, not McMahon or anyone connected with him, and after they fired Cornette (for getting rough with a wrestler who didn't sell Boogeyman's gimmick, as I recall) they brought Boogey up wholesale. Too bad he couldn't wrestle worth a damn. I kept hoping they'd bring back Papa Shango to feud with him; can you imagine a promo with Boogey vomiting up worms and worms and worms...? But virtually everyone who trained in OVW and developed characters there was given a new character when they were brought up to WWE. Except Boogeyman. I think that says a lot. (On the other hand, I doubt we'd be fondly remembering Flex Kavana at this point... or was it Flex Kabana...?)

- Grant

[JohnPopa]

Oh, absolutely. But that's pretty common for many of that era. There's certainly no bigger Bret Hart mark than Bret Hart. There was no bigger Chris Benoit mark than Chris Benoit. Shawn Micheals is easily the biggest Shawn Michaels mark, Terry Bollea's the biggest Hulk Hogan mark there is by far, Randy Poffo's the biggest Randy Savage mark, I'd suspect HHH was the biggest HHH mark if Stephanie McMahon-Helmsley weren't in the picture, and all these men pale as marks for themselves in comparison to the Ultimate Warrior. I don't think Dwayne Johnson was ever particularly a Rock mark, which is why he was able to do so many things with the character. Mick Foley's certainly no Mick Foley mark, though probably on some days every wrestler is his/her own biggest mark...

- Grant

Have you ever seen Warrior's shoot interview? It's surprisingly thoughtful and he shows a good understanding of the business and his place in it and how he got where he got. He's a bit defensive and goes after anyone who criticizes him but, as a whole, his is one of the more productive interviews I've seen. He's a mark for himself but at least he understands that it took a lot of other people to get him where he got and he doesn't pretend it was just him.

It's on YouTube if you're ever inclined to look for it or have an hour or so to kill.

[Steven Grant]

Have you ever seen Warrior's shoot interview?

No, but have you ever heard one of his "motivational" lectures? It's like listening to a speed freak (I'm not suggesting that's one of Warrior's problems, mind you, but I've known speed freaks and seen this with them) so far gone they only see themselves in totally messianic terms and speak in tongues, which is to say absolute gibberish while berating everyone else for "not getting it."

I'll check out the Warrior's shoot when I've got a spare minute. I ate breakfast at the table over from him at Comic-Con once, and aside from looking like Conan The Barbarian he seemed like a completely normal guy.

- Grant

[Sabrinaset]

Hmm, lemee see ...

Favorite In-Ring Wrestler? You know ... I have a bunch of Superstars of Wrestling shows ( I think that was the name of it) that Daddy recorded waaay in the 80's, it ran on Saturday mornings, and one thing I noticed about the squash matches when I watched them on VHS as a little girl was that none of the jobbers ever got in any real offense against the name guys ... EXCEPT for Jake the Snake. If you'd have asked me at around 8 years of age I would have said "Wow, Jake always has to work hard to beat someone, that's why I like him!" Now, I would tell you I liked him because even against a jobber, he'd still make him look at least a little bit good. It's a real shame how he's turned out since then.

Favorite Wrestler on the Mic? Gotta be the Rock.

Favorite Overall Wrestler? Steve Austin.

Favorite Match? It was on WWF's Saturday Night Main Event, the Rockers vs. the Hart Foundation. I know there must be better ones, but that's the only one that stands out for me.

Favorite Feud? Austin/McMahon.

I'm kinda surprised there isn't a question about best theme music... Overall, I'd give it to Steve Austin, the Ultimate Warrior, and maybe the nWo. I kinda like Golddusts too ... :redface: Current best theme song ... I'd say Awesome Kong. Just the huge stomping beat it has is intimidating enough, and it really musically describes her in-ring personna perfectly. Well, to me anyway! Mr. Grant, what are your favorites?

[steve2275]

do you have abs like morisson?
just out of curosity
cause them some good
abs that ill never have

[Hanzo the Razor]

I picked up the 3-Disc Bret Hart set you mentioned at Wal-Mart last night, Steven, and have enjoyed the documentary feature thus far. Bret's got an interesting history.

That's weird. Your message wasn't there before, and suddenly now it is.

It was always there for me. ???


But it's a mechanical kind of "improvisation"; watch enough Kurt Angle matches and you realize he's "improvising" the same thing over and over and over. Again, though, what you're talking about had a lot to do with the era.

I'm not sure what you're referring to here-- there were standards moves in Kurt's arsenal, like any other wrestler, but I was always surprised by the way he amnaged to turn anyone else's finisher into an Angle Lock. I'm sure they weren't genuine improvisations, but the way he pulled them off, it felt spontaneous enough for me. I liked how he picked a leg out of nowhere and could actually mat wrestle on the ground. He also made for a decent brawler when the story called for it. I'm just remembering all those classic matches he had with Benoit, Steve Austin, The Rock, etc. I never felt disappointed by a PPV performance he did... and as a guy that usually only liked about 20% of any given card, I don't feel I'm someone easy to please, but I suppose our tastes are just different.

I'm sure many things were planned out, like his moonsalt spots and his counters to the finishers, but I just think about all those times momentum in the match suddenly shifted from a lightning fast takedown or counter and don't think that all of those were predetermined.

I think all of his stuff that came from actual wrestling gave his matches an extra bit of authenticity.

I dunno... he never sounds "real" to me, he always sounds like someone reading prefab lines. That's what I mean by mechanical; his promos always sounded like he was reading from a script, not speaking from the heart. "Oh, it's true, it's true, it's damn true" always sounded much more irritating to me than "the best there is, the best there was and the best there ever will be" for that reason. The only emotion heel Kurt ever gets across in an interview is indignant outrage. It gets tiresome.

Well, I'd agree that the guy doesn't sound real-- no one could be that much of a buffoon! But again, the entertainment value of the character he pulled off was high. As a heel, he always got some of the strongest crowd reactions I've seen in the 00's. The whole "You Suck!" chant went over very big and it didn't seem you could find anyone who was indifferent to Kurt Angle. I don't know what kind of money he drew, but the reaction to him always seemed very strong.

It's a fake character in mannerisms and antics, but I think the core of the character was fairly true to life-- a goofy guy who thinks he's the best wrestler in the locker room and is eager to prove it. It's not as down to Earth as Bret's character (who manages a monotone even when he's yelling, somehow), but when compared to Austin, the Rock, etc.? I never felt his promos came across as any faker than the other top guys at the time and came across better than 90% of the other wrestlers going at the time.

Plus I never got the impression Kurt was very good at carrying other wrestlers in the ring, and got along best when paired with expert wrestlers like Edge (who's a much better talker than Kurt) who didn't need carrying.

I haven't watched wrestling since 2004, as it got really boring for my tastes, so I haven't seen the evolution of Edge as a performer, but I'd rather listen to any Angle promo over his based on what I've heard.

I don't know how good Kurt was at carrying a shitty wrestler, but he always sold the hell out of his matches with main eventers-- check out his match with the Rock at No Way Out in... 2001? (Before the Rock Austin match at Wrestlemania X-7) He always made Austin look pretty good as well, as I recall. It's hard for me to know, as I can't remember the shitty wrestlers he did-- I just remember the highlights of his WWE career. And that when I watched RAW/Smackdown, he was always one fo the better guys.

And moving to TNA exposed all of Kurt's weaknesses, to the point where he's now as much of a cartoon as Hogan ever was.

I haven't seen those matches, so I can't say, but I noticed his in-ring wasn't as good around the time I stopped watching and I attributed that mostly to the injuries he's suffered. His pace slowed down quite a bit and he wasn't as fast as he used to be; it seemed like he used wear-down holds more often.

Fortunately for the Rock, who deserves to be called a great if anyone does, his shtick was brilliant, endlessly funny, because it was extremely adaptable and he could run an almost psychotic gamut of emotions in the course of any match or interview and the sheer collision of them only emphasized the humor.

Geez, we must be thinking of a different Rock. I just remember the guy who would just run the same character all the time-- the guy that used rhymes and catch-phrases to tout how he was the "Great One" and how he'd "Layeth the Smacketh Down" on his opponents. And if you attacked him, he'd make fun of you publicly and become angry. It seemed like he ran two emotions-- indignant and angry.

His schtick got worn out just before Wrestlemania X-8 and after that, it seemed fans grew tired of his phrases, which got pretty lame toward the end of his last long WWE run. I mean, "The People's Strudel"? By the time he dropped the strap to Brock Lesnar, it seemed half of the WWE marks were tired of him. They eventually turned him heel since half the fans were booing him at one point.

Oddly, I thought the heel turn went well and got him more creative with his promos.

It's odd to me that you dislike Kurt for being so fake and manufactured, but the Rock, who seems to live off nothing more than just catchphrases and the same indignant Namor-esque personality is aces with you. Almost everythign you say about Kurt could be applied to the People's Champ. Including the in-ring stuff-- The Rock's matches were insanely repetitive and while I admire him for selling so well, the guy couldn't really carry anyone. His matches against the likes of the Undertaker and midcarders like Albert or Test were deadly dull.

(Note: I actually am a Rock fan, mostly. He's what got me into pro-wrestling the second time around.)

The object of wrestling isn't to inflict pain on your opponent but to appear to inflict pain. In his book, Bret even jokes about the sharpshooter looking really painful, but a) it's not the slightest bit painful or dangerous, and is far tougher for the person slapping it on because it's very easy to lose your balance, and b) it's impossible to put on someone without that person's consent. But it looked good.

I've actually been in a sharpshooter while fucking around with my friends (I was 13 when Bret was at his height) and it does hurt. Maybe not to tough guy Bret Hart, but to a regular guy like me, it was painful. It's the same thing as a Boston Crab, only your legs are folded. Bret sits on the guy's back and pulls the legs, making it look like pressure's being added. The Rock bends the knees but still supports his own weight mostly and doesn't lean backwards into the wrestler, making it seem as if no pressure's being added.

That's something I thought about while washing up last night. Flair's best feuds were against Roddy Piper, Ricky Steamboat and Terry Funk. Not sure about Funk, but neither Piper nor Steamboat ever had a "standard" match routine, and were very adaptable wrestlers, in the way you describe. But it was guys like Flair and Rhodes, who had very standard, predictable matches, who became more widely renowned as great wrestlers... go figure...

- Grant

I don't think many wrestling fans are into the same kind of things you and I might be. I think there's a core audience that does like it, but most wrestling fans just want to see guys talk trash and get "beat up". As boring and predictable as Hulk hogan is, people love that same "gets beat up and Hulks up" story as you've written in your column. It's just like how people seem to liek the same plots from Hollywood year after year. People love seeing what they saw on TV, and for people's that's Ric Flair's belly flop, Hogan's three punch-big boot-leg drop combo, and Austin's Lou Thesz Press with punches.

[Steven Grant]

Mr. Grant, what are your favorites?

For some reason theme music has almost never registered for me. I know Austin's starts with breaking glass but after that I couldn't say what it is. I know Hogan's and Savage's, but I hate Hogan's and Savage's is funny but I wouldn't call it great. I vaguely remember Mr. Perfect's. I wouldn't know Bret's theme music if you pumped it on mighty loudspeakers into my tiny cell all night long. Wrestler theme music just doesn't connect with my head.

- Grant

[Steven Grant]

do you have abs like morisson?

Everyone has abs like Morrison.

Just almost no one is capable of showing them.

- Grant

[Gavin Higginbotham, BotF]

Everyone has abs like Morrison.

Just almost no one is capable of showing them.

- Grant

Yeah, I say to people that I have a six-pack, it's just hiding underneath a keg.

[Steven Grant]

I'm not sure what you're referring to here-- there were standards moves in Kurt's arsenal, like any other wrestler, but I was always surprised by the way he amnaged to turn anyone else's finisher into an Angle Lock. I'm sure they weren't genuine improvisations, but the way he pulled them off, it felt spontaneous enough for me. I liked how he picked a leg out of nowhere and could actually mat wrestle on the ground. He also made for a decent brawler when the story called for it. I'm just remembering all those classic matches he had with Benoit, Steve Austin, The Rock, etc. I never felt disappointed by a PPV performance he did... and as a guy that usually only liked about 20% of any given card, I don't feel I'm someone easy to please, but I suppose our tastes are just different.

I'm not trying to convince you to dislike Angle, but for me Kurt's matches all blur together. I can't think of a single one that stood out for me. That's not an argument that Bret's are better because they do, but obviously Bret connects with me in some way that misses you, and vice versa with Angle.

I'm sure many things were planned out, like his moonsalt spots and his counters to the finishers, but I just think about all those times momentum in the match suddenly shifted from a lightning fast takedown or counter and don't think that all of those were predetermined.

On the level Kurt, Edge, Bret, Austin etc. wrestle on, very little is "predetermined" except the finish and the way it's handled. In the meantime generally the senior wrestler in the ring "calls" the moves as they're going on. (That's one of the functions of rest holds, by the way, esp. headlocks, so that one wrestler can communicate to the other the next set of moves.) Being able to call matches used to be an absolutely necessarily quality for holding a championship, since traditionally he who holds the belt calls the matches. So a lot of the Angle/whoever matches likely had the combinations improvised on the spot.

Jericho calls most of his matches and it's pretty funny to watch, even though they're frequently terrific matches, because he's not especially good at masking it. Though the worst ever may have been Scott Steiner, who could be heard shouting moves across the ring to his opponents.

I think all of his stuff that came from actual wrestling gave his matches an extra bit of authenticity.

There's an argument for that, though amateur wrestling training can be as much hindrance as help in pro wrestling, since the apparent connection between them is pretty illusory.

The whole "You Suck!" chant went over very big and it didn't seem you could find anyone who was indifferent to Kurt Angle. I don't know what kind of money he drew, but the reaction to him always seemed very strong.

I think he drew okay but not spectacularly, but that can be said of pretty much all champions after Austin, Rock & Foley.

It's a fake character in mannerisms and antics, but I think the core of the character was fairly true to life-- a goofy guy who thinks he's the best wrestler in the locker room and is eager to prove it. It's not as down to Earth as Bret's character (who manages a monotone even when he's yelling, somehow), but when compared to Austin, the Rock, etc.? I never felt his promos came across as any faker than the other top guys at the time and came across better than 90% of the other wrestlers going at the time.

I'd generally agree with that. Certainly he didn't come across on the mike any worse than 90% of the other wrestlers going, but he still had this quality that always sounded to me like a guy reading a script and trying to wedge some emotion into it. You can compare that to Eddie Guerrero, who was also given some pretty goofy things to say but always managed to sound like it was flowing spontaneously out of him and he meant every word of it. Of course, Eddie was a better talker than virtually anyone in the post-Austin/Rock era.

I haven't watched wrestling since 2004, as it got really boring for my tastes, so I haven't seen the evolution of Edge as a performer, but I'd rather listen to any Angle promo over his based on what I've heard.

Edge is maybe the WWE's best guy on the stick right now. Not that they make it easy for anyone with their constant scripting and interference, but I get the idea Edge (along with HHH) is given a lot less "guidance" than most others.

I don't know how good Kurt was at carrying a shitty wrestler, but he always sold the hell out of his matches with main eventers-- check out his match with the Rock at No Way Out in... 2001? (Before the Rock Austin match at Wrestlemania X-7) He always made Austin look pretty good as well, as I recall. It's hard for me to know, as I can't remember the shitty wrestlers he did-- I just remember the highlights of his WWE career. And that when I watched RAW/Smackdown, he was always one fo the better guys.

I imagine it's pretty hard, if you have any amount of pro wrestling talent at all, to have had a bad match with Austin or The Rock. The question is how were Angle's matches with, oh, Big Show? I'm trying to recall other stiffs of the era and their names just aren't popping up. But it's not the kind of matches you can get out of the guys who wrestle, it's the kind you get out of guys who can't...

I haven't seen those matches, so I can't say, but I noticed his in-ring wasn't as good around the time I stopped watching and I attributed that mostly to the injuries he's suffered. His pace slowed down quite a bit and he wasn't as fast as he used to be; it seemed like he used wear-down holds more often.

Kurt really should retire at this point. He has had many surgeries on his neck and he still takes lots of chair shots, suplexes on the back of his head, etc., and wrestles fairly brutal matches in TNA. At minimum they should turn him face and let him wrestle an easier style. I'm really afraid he'll end up Mizawa'd in the ring someday soon. He may not be my favorite wrestler but I've got enough respect for the guy that I'd rather not see him crippled or worse. (There are rumors he might be following Christian back to WWE soon.)

Geez, we must be thinking of a different Rock. I just remember the guy who would just run the same character all the time-- the guy that used rhymes and catch-phrases to tout how he was the "Great One" and how he'd "Layeth the Smacketh Down" on his opponents. And if you attacked him, he'd make fun of you publicly and become angry. It seemed like he ran two emotions-- indignant and angry.

Yeah, I think we're thinking of a different Rock. Ever see his run against and alongside Mick Foley? Comedy gold.

Oddly, I thought the heel turn went well and got him more creative with his promos.

It's not unusual for even favorite characters to get stale after awhile. That's when faces go heel, to freshen them up. But the Rock never stopped selling, though he was probably smart to get out when he did. (Funny, I don't recall that final heel turn at all.)

It's odd to me that you dislike Kurt for being so fake and manufactured, but the Rock, who seems to live off nothing more than just catchphrases and the same indignant Namor-esque personality is aces with you. Almost everythign you say about Kurt could be applied to the People's Champ. Including the in-ring stuff-- The Rock's matches were insanely repetitive and while I admire him for selling so well, the guy couldn't really carry anyone. His matches against the likes of the Undertaker and midcarders like Albert or Test were deadly dull.

Yeah, you might be right about that. I have to say I never paid a lot of attention to many of the Rock's matches. On the other hand, he never had a problem with putting anyone else over, and as repetitive as his various catchphrases were, they were almost always funny due to the shifting contexts. As much as he made fun of opponents in his promos, he made fun of himself too. It was just a fun shtick.

I've actually been in a sharpshooter while fucking around with my friends (I was 13 when Bret was at his height) and it does hurt. Maybe not to tough guy Bret Hart, but to a regular guy like me, it was painful. It's the same thing as a Boston Crab, only your legs are folded. Bret sits on the guy's back and pulls the legs, making it look like pressure's being added. The Rock bends the knees but still supports his own weight mostly and doesn't lean backwards into the wrestler, making it seem as if no pressure's being added.

I think someone might have slapped it on you wrong. I'd have to go look, but I don't think Bret actually sits on anyone's back, just very close to them, while supporting his own weight with his bent legs, which is pretty tricky to do. I also don't think he pulls on the legs as severely as his body position makes it look like he's doing. But, as I said, I'd have to check.

- Grant



I don't think many wrestling fans are into the same kind of things you and I might be. I think there's a core audience that does like it, but most wrestling fans just want to see guys talk trash and get "beat up". As boring and predictable as Hulk hogan is, people love that same "gets beat up and Hulks up" story as you've written in your column. It's just like how people seem to liek the same plots from Hollywood year after year. People love seeing what they saw on TV, and for people's that's Ric Flair's belly flop, Hogan's three punch-big boot-leg drop combo, and Austin's Lou Thesz Press with punches.[/QUOTE]

[Hanzo the Razor]

I think he drew okay but not spectacularly, but that can be said of pretty much all champions after Austin, Rock & Foley.

Yeah, it's hard to draw if you're a heel and Angle never managed to pull off being a 'face.

I imagine it's pretty hard, if you have any amount of pro wrestling talent at all, to have had a bad match with Austin or The Rock. The question is how were Angle's matches with, oh, Big Show? I'm trying to recall other stiffs of the era and their names just aren't popping up. But it's not the kind of matches you can get out of the guys who wrestle, it's the kind you get out of guys who can't...

I'm surprised you put the Rock into this category; I love the guy, but he can't really pull a great match out of someone like Test or Albert or one of those other big slobs the way Benoit, Guerrero, or Angle could.

Kurt really should retire at this point.

I haven't seen him lately, but based on how he was doing when I aw him last, I'm surprised he's still active-- much less going out for Ultimate Fighting.

Yeah, I think we're thinking of a different Rock. Ever see his run against and alongside Mick Foley? Comedy gold.

Hilarious, I agree. But he didn't maintain that level of quality throughout his entire run. Past 2000 to 2001, the guy's mic skills dropped off and he became something of a parody of himself. And not a great one.

It's not unusual for even favorite characters to get stale after awhile. That's when faces go heel, to freshen them up. But the Rock never stopped selling, though he was probably smart to get out when he did. (Funny, I don't recall that final heel turn at all.)

That final heel turn came prior to Wrestlemania 19. He came back and rematched Hogan, making fun of Hogan's commercials and all. He then finally beat Austin clean at Wrestlemania before jobbing to Goldberg at Backlash.

I think someone might have slapped it on you wrong. I'd have to go look, but I don't think Bret actually sits on anyone's back, just very close to them, while supporting his own weight with his bent legs, which is pretty tricky to do. I also don't think he pulls on the legs as severely as his body position makes it look like he's doing. But, as I said, I'd have to check.

Here's a quick example, but watching that DVD last night, I saw him lean further back than this into it at times. My buddy actually flat out sat on back though, so many that's what did it.

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q133/grant095/bret.jpg

[Hanzo the Razor]

Thjat said, Grant, I gotta say I'm enjoying the hell outta the Hart DVD you recommended. I'm getting a greater appreciation for his run in the WWF and can't deny that I'm being entertained by the whole thing. I'm finding myself rethinking some of my criticisms of the man.

[Steven Grant]

Yeah, it's hard to draw if you're a heel and Angle never managed to pull off being a 'face.

In fairness to Kurt, as a face he was saddled with the old Bob Backlund gimmick, which never even worked for Backlund, so it's no surprise it didn't work.

I'm surprised you put the Rock into this category; I love the guy, but he can't really pull a great match out of someone like Test or Albert or one of those other big slobs the way Benoit, Guerrero, or Angle could.

I probably remember the Rock as being better in the ring than he was, haven't re-watched a Rock match in years. Oddly, the main match I remember of his was his no-DQ empty arena match against Foley at some pay per view. Empty arena matches are generally awful because there's no immediate fan reactions or noise, and this one wasn't especially good, ending with Foley using a forklift to pin Rock's shoulders to the concrete in some loading dock. But there's one bit where they fight through the green room where there's a huge food spread that they of course knock all to hell, but there's one bit where the Rock abruptly grabs a closed bag of pre-popped popcorn like you can buy at warehouse stores, a big bag four or five feet long, and beats Foley over the head with it. Foley sells it like someone dropped a cinder block on him from ten floors up, and it was one of the funniest things I've ever seen in a wrestling match.

I haven't seen him lately, but based on how he was doing when I aw him last, I'm surprised he's still active-- much less going out for Ultimate Fighting.

He seems to have given up on that. He would never have had more than one match anyway, unless he managed to get an ankle lock on someone, but those guys all train against stuff like that and despite being an am-wrestling wunderkind Kurt just doesn't have the other tools to go head-to-head against those guys, so he'd be in big trouble virtually any MMA guys now have to have to compete. I think he saw Brock Lesnar making a big splash there, and saw everyone raving over Randy Couture's big title comeback at 43, and figured he'd be a shoo-in, but he's wrong.

Hilarious, I agree. But he didn't maintain that level of quality throughout his entire run. Past 2000 to 2001, the guy's mic skills dropped off and he became something of a parody of himself. And not a great one.

That's about the time the WWE started getting more involved in everyone's promos. I suspect Johnson was already burning out on the business by then and eyeing the exit, since as grueling as making movies is, it's much less a grind than 200-250 in-ring performances annually as a pro wrestler.

That final heel turn came prior to Wrestlemania 19. He came back and rematched Hogan, making fun of Hogan's commercials and all. He then finally beat Austin clean at Wrestlemania before jobbing to Goldberg at Backlash.

Oh yeah... it's coming back to me now...

Here's a quick example, but watching that DVD last night, I saw him lean further back than this into it at times. My buddy actually flat out sat on back though, so many that's what did it.

It varied but I doubt he did it more than the other guy was comfortable with, and as that picture shows he didn't sit on his opponents. Holding onto the legs was probably how he kept from falling over backwards during the move. More than likely he wasn't pulling much at all and the guys on the bottom were pulling away from him with their legs to support him.

Glad you're enjoying the Hart DVD. See if you can spot where he blades Austin in their WM13 match. Funny story about that: he and Austin had decided to blade to give their match a little more reality, since Austin had to "pass out" at the end, that kind of damage protected his character. At the time blading was completely verboten in WWf, and Austin had never bladed but trusted Bret to do it. (Bret always told wrestlers never to let another wrestler blade them, but in this case the only other option was to skip it, and Bret had been taught really well how to blade by Japanese wrestlers in Stampede.) So Bret blades Austin, so skillfully that no one realizes blading has occurred, everyone thinks Austin's cut hardways. Great response, good drama. What they didn't know is that Savage and Flair, in the main event, had also decided Flair would blade, but in that match it was very obvious and Vince was so pissed off he levied big fines on both Savage and Flair, but never realized Bret and Austin had done the same thing.

Anyway, I know quite a few people who share your general view of Bret's matches. I just always enjoyed them...

- Grant

[Sabrinaset]

Edge is maybe the WWE's best guy on the stick right now. Not that they make it easy for anyone with their constant scripting and interference, but I get the idea Edge (along with HHH) is given a lot less "guidance" than most others.


I dunno, both Morrison and Benjamin have really stepped up to the plate lately when it comes to shooting promos. It'll be a shame when they get their inevitable burial by HHH.

I imagine it's pretty hard, if you have any amount of pro wrestling talent at all, to have had a bad match with Austin or The Rock. The question is how were Angle's matches with, oh, Big Show? I'm trying to recall other stiffs of the era and their names just aren't popping up. But it's not the kind of matches you can get out of the guys who wrestle, it's the kind you get out of guys who can't...

I vaguely remember a story about Ric Flair circa 1980's WCW where the bookers put him up against Giant Gonzalez just to see if Flair could get a good match out of him.

[Steven Grant]

I dunno, both Morrison and Benjamin have really stepped up to the plate lately when it comes to shooting promos. It'll be a shame when they get their inevitable burial by HHH.

Unfortunately, Benjamin's already dead. He got abruptly bumped to ECW where he debuted in a ten-second job to a new guy. (It wasn't quite a squash since there was a set-up to it but neither the jump nor the job spells much good for him.)

I think Morrison could become a really good mike man, but they've got to stop feeding him lines. Morrison's fortunate at the moment in being on Smackdown where he can pick up lots of steam without ever getting near HHH. His losses to Edge and Jericho lately have given him a boost because they handled the losses right, and his win over Punk didn't hurt him either. As long as he's on Smackdown I think he has a pretty bright future.

I vaguely remember a story about Ric Flair circa 1980's WCW where the bookers put him up against Giant Gonzalez just to see if Flair could get a good match out of him.

I don't know if that's true, but he couldn't. But nobody could.

- Grant

[Hanzo the Razor]

BTW, Steven, have you read Bret's autobio put out last year? It's supposed to be very good.

[Hanzo the Razor]

Here's another pic of Bret leaning further back into the sharpshooter.

http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee335/jameshanson/hart7.jpg

[Steven Grant]

BTW, Steven, have you read Bret's autobio put out last year? It's supposed to be very good.

I have. It's very good, though you have to make allowances for Bret tooting his own horn a little much. But they all do in those. Lots of great stories, and a psycho life from birth. It's kind of amazing he's as normal as he is (and he's a pretty down to earth guy).

- Grant

[Steven Grant]

Here's another pic of Bret leaning further back into the sharpshooter.

But, again, he's not sitting on him, and he and Hennig got along so well in the ring and both were so determined to put on the best show on the card that I imagine prior to the match, Curt said, "Really sink it in!" Which, really, made Curt look stronger, because Bret had to go all out to put him down, from a viewer's perspective.

Again, the way Bret's positioned there, it's unlikely he could even keep his balance if Curt weren't pulling his own legs forward to give him something to anchor to. That really says something about Curt's athleticism too, since only Curt's hands are touching the mat.

- Grant

[Rob Allen]

40+ years ago I was watching the WWWF when its big feud was Bruno Sammartino vs. Gorilla Monsoon. Back then, wrestling was only on the Spanish TV station in New York, titled "Lucha Libre". When I expanded my horizons from comics to "real" magazines, the first ones were Mad and Wrestling Revue. My brother and I pored over the 'top 100 wrestlers' lists in every issue of WR.

My brother stayed interested in wrestling longer than I did. When we got older, we split things up - I kept all the comics, and he kept the baseball cards and wrestling magazines, regardless of which of us had bought them originally.

[Hanzo the Razor]

Bret's thoughts on Kurt Angle--

http://www.brethart.com/bio/columns/kurt-angle-and-best-wrestlers-20th-century

"As for Kurt Angle, I think he is simply the best there is ...today. He reminds me a lot of Chris Benoit - and that's a compliment. If I worked with Kurt Angle I imagine our match would be similar to the ones I had with Benoit, which many people tell me they consider to be classics.

Many fans have written to me saying that Hitman vs. Angle is a dream match they'd love to see - and I agree! In fact, not long ago I actually awoke from a dream in which I had Angle clamped in a side head lock. Never in all my years in the WWF did I ever dream of a wrestling match in my sleep, It made me realize that if I was going to come back for just one more great match I'd want Kurt Angle to be the guy.

It'd be a match of high caliber in the spirit of when I worked with Curt Hennig. Roddy Piper. Steve Austin. Davey Boy. And even Shawn Michaels.

I look forward to meeting Kurt Angle. Edge told me that Kurt wasn't a wrestling fan as a kid but that when he started in pro wrestling he watched every tape he could get his hands on and decided he liked me best. I'm flattered.

Thing is, I truly believe that Kurt Angle is the guy that can save wrestling - from itself. In my opinion, the problem with wrestling today, the reason why the ratings are down, is that very few guys know how to wrestle any more. I mean wrestling as an art form. To me they all look like a bunch of Mexican jumping beans and after a while that gets boring. It's like a movie full of car wrecks and explosions without any story. I believe that one of the reasons I got the World Heavyweight Title, the first time, was because in the midst of a steroid scandal the WWF needed a champion who could really wrestle as one way of showing that the business isn't all about muscle . I believe that's what the WWE needs today and the guy that can pull it off and carry the torch is Kurt Angle.

If I ever could have a last match it would be with him."

[Steven Grant]

Bret's thoughts on Kurt Angle--

I don't doubt any of that. It's too bad Bret can never safely wrestle again and Kurt probably shouldn't.

- Grant

[Dr. Pickles]

The first time I recall seeing Bret wrestle was during the battle royal at Wrestlemania 2 back in 1986. It sticks out to this day because the last three guys left were Bret, Anvil, and goddamn Andre. The Foundation got hammered of course, but they brought a fight and it made me want to see more of them. The following year's feud with the Bulldogs was some of the finest tag team wrestling I've ever seen.

I scored an old Coliseum VHS of a WWF compilation featuring a match between the Harts and the Steiner Brothers. Phenomenal stuff, including Owen destroying Rick Steiner with a vertical suplex piledriver. That may be the only time I've seen that move done, or maybe at least in North American pro wrestling. Monsoon marked out hard for that one. I can try to upload it to YouTube for your viewing pleasure.

As far as his micwork goes, he was a little wooden seeming but when he was a heel he had some microphone gold.
"Who are you to doubt El Dandy?" Hilarious.

[Hanzo the Razor]

I think Koko B. Ware had a vettical suplex piledriver as a finisher-- he called it the "Ghostbuster" for some reason.

[Steven Grant]

I think Koko B. Ware had a vettical suplex piledriver as a finisher-- he called it the "Ghostbuster" for some reason.

Mainly because GHOSTBUSTERS was a hot film in the early '80s.

I kind of laugh when I think that Koko was what used to be referred to as "a high flyer," mainly because he'd climb to the top of a turnbuckle post and basically fall off it. Of course, Jimmy Snuka used to do the same thing and they raved him up like he was doing aerial acrobatics at fifty feet without a net. Compare that to stunts like Brian Pillman or even Vader pulled, not to mention virtually all wrestlers today...

- Grant

[JohnPopa]

Without seeing Owen's move, the term 'vertical suplex piledriver' reminds me a bit of Jushin Liger/Shane Douglas's Fisherman buster, which is a move no one in the WWE has ever really used regularly, probably because it's harder to do with the heavier guys Vince tends to hire.

[Steven Grant]

Without seeing Owen's move, the term 'vertical suplex piledriver' reminds me a bit of Jushin Liger/Shane Douglas's Fisherman buster, which is a move no one in the WWE has ever really used regularly, probably because it's harder to do with the heavier guys Vince tends to hire.

A "vertical suplex piledriver" is where Wrestler A holds Wrestler B upside alongside him, then basically drops to his butt and drives B's head "into the mat," right? That's pretty commonly used these days in WWE if it's the one I'm thinking of. What I love about it sit that B is supposedly inert enough to get caught helplessly in the move but his legs are always rigidly straight, demonstrating it couldn't possibly be done without B's cooperation.

- Grant

[Dr. Pickles]

A "vertical suplex piledriver" is where Wrestler A holds Wrestler B upside alongside him, then basically drops to his butt and drives B's head "into the mat," right? That's pretty commonly used these days in WWE if it's the one I'm thinking of. What I love about it sit that B is supposedly inert enough to get caught helplessly in the move but his legs are always rigidly straight, demonstrating it couldn't possibly be done without B's cooperation.

- Grant

No, this move is set up like a standard vertical suplex, but instead of falling backwards, A rotates B's body 180 degrees and it becomes a sit-out tombstone. Looks devastating, and I think it was more commonly used by heavyweights in Japan.

[Dr. Pickles]

Found a vid of this move, done horribly.

BTW, I got my gears switched. Scott Steiner did this to Owen, not whatever the hell I was saying before. In any case, BPP's version was far better as he stalled the transition for a few seconds before dropping Owen. Man, I miss the days when Scott could actually throw down. What a waste.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVLjODXIZG8

[bartl]

I figure as long as we're talking pro wrestling, people might enjoy this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30Ae0EkqNg4

[Steven Grant]

No, this move is set up like a standard vertical suplex, but instead of falling backwards, A rotates B's body 180 degrees and it becomes a sit-out tombstone. Looks devastating, and I think it was more commonly used by heavyweights in Japan.

Oh, okay. I've seen that one quite a bit too. Pretty sure I've seen Chris Jericho use it fairly recently...

- Grant

[lboinyamouf4sho]

as a bret hart fan, what did you think of his fued with Mr Backlund and their matches??

[Steven Grant]

as a bret hart fan, what did you think of his fued with Mr Backlund and their matches??

Well... Bob Backlund always bored me silly, and I didn't like his routines at all... it was like watching a member of the Bushwackers who'd somehow gotten it in his head that he was educated and sophisticated...

But the match where Bret loses the world title to Backlund (as a transitional champ to put the belt on Diesel without a face v face feud or turning one of them) was a real classic, less due to the wrestling, though that was good, than to using it to really ramp up the whole Hart Family drama, especially during the, what was it? 140 minute sequence where Bret refuses to tap out to the crossface chickenwing and heel (but possibly reforming) Owen is outside the ring with tears streaming down his cheeks as he watches his brother's pain in the ring and pleading, begging, PLEADING with their aged, agonized mother to throw in the towel before Bret suffers permanent career ending injury, and it goes ON and ON, but instead of just seeming endless the tension just grows and grows and grows until Helen finally throws in the towel (also playing on how Backlund lost the title to the Iron Sheik, as a transitional champ to put the belt on Hogan, as he refused to tap to the Sheik's camel clutch and finally Backlund's manager Arnold Skaaland throws in the towel) and suddenly Owen's no longer sobbing, he's bouncing around outside the ring laughing and cackling and mocking Bret for being a loser and letting him know it was him, Owen who cost Bret his prized championship and made Bret a loser!

One of the most memorable angle matches I've ever seen, perfectly handled on virtually every level. If there were other Bret-Backlund matches, I don't remember them at all.

- Grant

[robertwnielsen]

Favorite In-Ring Wrestler? Chris Jericho

Favorite Wrestler on the Mic? "Rowdy" Roddy Piper (Ric Flair & Jim "The Anvil" Neidhart tie for 2nd).

Favorite Overall Wrestler? The Man, Ric Flair!

Favorite Match? Hogan/Andre at Wrestlemania III

Favorite Feud? Stone Cold/The Rock

[lboinyamouf4sho]

Well... Bob Backlund always bored me silly, and I didn't like his routines at all... it was like watching a member of the Bushwackers who'd somehow gotten it in his head that he was educated and sophisticated...

how dare you!!:mad:

But the match where Bret loses the world title to Backlund (as a transitional champ to put the belt on Diesel without a face v face feud or turning one of them) was a real classic, less due to the wrestling, though that was good, than to using it to really ramp up the whole Hart Family drama, especially during the, what was it? 140 minute sequence where Bret refuses to tap out to the crossface chickenwing and heel (but possibly reforming) Owen is outside the ring with tears streaming down his cheeks as he watches his brother's pain in the ring and pleading, begging, PLEADING with their aged, agonized mother to throw in the towel before Bret suffers permanent career ending injury, and it goes ON and ON, but instead of just seeming endless the tension just grows and grows and grows until Helen finally throws in the towel (also playing on how Backlund lost the title to the Iron Sheik, as a transitional champ to put the belt on Hogan, as he refused to tap to the Sheik's camel clutch and finally Backlund's manager Arnold Skaaland throws in the towel) and suddenly Owen's no longer sobbing, he's bouncing around outside the ring laughing and cackling and mocking Bret for being a loser and letting him know it was him, Owen who cost Bret his prized championship and made Bret a loser!

One of the most memorable angle matches I've ever seen, perfectly handled on virtually every level. If there were other Bret-Backlund matches, I don't remember them at all.

- Grant

i definately agree with all that. they had another match at wrestlemania that year with piper as the guest ref. it was good but didn't get nearly enough time, piper screwed Mr Backlund as it was an i quit match and Mr Backlund just yelled out in pain but never said "i quit" and piper called for the bell.

at the time i hated the angle mostly because i didn't know who Mr Backlund even was and i hated seeing bret having to seriously fued with some old man. a couple of years ago though i re-watched all that stuff and thought it was great, especially knowing the history with Mr Backlund vs iron shiek. i found Mr Backlunds crazy old man gimmick to be very entertaining and he still pulled it off quite nicely in TNA just a few years ago.

[hangoo]

My Favorite In-Ring Wrestler- Chris Benoit.

[Jamie Coville]

Favorite In-Ring Wrestler?

Bret Hart

Favorite Wrestler on the Mic?

Hard to pick, But Rock and Piper are probably the top 2. Stone Cold I think is underrated because of the Rock.

Favorite Overall Wrestler?

Bret Hart.

Favorite Match?

Hard to pick but I think I've re-watched Bret vs. Owen in a Steel Cage (Summer Slam 94) more than any other.

Favorite Feud?

97 Hart Foundation vs. America.

I stopped watching wrestling just after 2000. I watched WWF until the Montreal Incident. Watched WCW from mid 90s up until towards 2000 and only sporadically after Bret left. Watched ECW on TNN (now Spike) until their plugged was pulled. These days I still buy a lot of DVDs though. Just got done watching the Savage collection and just got the Allied Powers Tag Team one. I got a decent collection of FMW and other random/indy DVDs and good post 97 WWE PPVs.

Bret is my favorite because he essentially taught me the difference between a good wrestling match and a bad one. As a young kid I didn't really have much taste, I only liked particular characters (Snuka, JYD, Savage, Warrior). I suspect my experience is the same as most growing up in the 80s. Bret revolutionized wrestling for me and I think for the entire profession. I think fans learned what a good match was and anybody that couldn't put on a decent match was kicked out very quickly, unless they had some other way of drawing heat.