Anyone else feel like the Death of Batman could have been explored more?

[frostedone]

I was sort of hoping for something more when Batman died.

What I mean is the reactions from people.

Like how would the GCPD feel? How would Gordon and Bullock mourn?

What about the Batman Family? Dick, Tim, Cassandra, Alfred, Leslie, Steph, Damian, Selina, and Jason. We didn't get to see much. It was like Bruce is gone, we need a new Batman.

The Justice League too.

The villains too. All we see is them overtake Gotham.

Just how long was Gotham without Batman for anyway? Things sure went south fast.

I have read Batman 686 and Detective 853, the Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader Issues, and they were both very good, but it was more along the lines of the Death of Batman throughout the various incarnations of him.

Anyone else wanted more? Like we didn't get enough reactions. That is why I love issue one of "The Man Deaths of Batman" so much. In just one single issue it gave us everyone's reaction to his passing.

[CBikle]

Too many editorial logjams and missteps to get anything going.

In hindsight, I think DC would have made Batman's death more of an event; I think you could have had some really good stories and a whole bunch of vaguely-connected one-shots and limited series cranked out in a halfass manner.

[Stephen Tetsu]

Yeah, I felt that the entire circumstance of Batman's death could have been hndled much better. In issue six of FC, more time was devoted to goddamn Tawny than Bruce fricken' Wayne shooting Darkseid and getting hit with the Omega Sanction. The issues after his "death" didn't relly do much to actually explore how those around him felt, instead forging ahead with superheroics rather than exploring the human element.

The only recent issues that I felt have even tried addressing the emotional impact of his death are Blackest Night 0 and the new issue of Batman.
I think that DC has dropped the ball with this entire storyline, especially in comparison to Marvel's handling of the death of Steve Rodgers (even though that isn't even lasting).

[jgiannantoni05]

Like how would the GCPD feel? How would Gordon and Bullock mourn?

This has been all been covered. Gordon's and Bullock's reaction was handled in that one-shot with Mr. Freeze.

Did you just not like that story?

And these stories are not even done being told. This is early in the new Batman story.
________
Honda Vf500F (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Honda_VF500F)

[Bat_Fan2232]

This has been all been covered. Gordon's and Bullock's reaction was handled in that one-shot with Mr. Freeze.

Did you just not like that story?

And these stories are not even done being told. This is early in the new Batman story.

what issue with freeze is this?

[Stephen Tetsu]

It was that one BFTC oneshot.

[NeoStar9X]

It was that one BFTC oneshot.

That right there would be the problem. Not apart of the BftC main series. Many people might have simply skipped that event all together and just waited for the new titles and Batman/Detective to start back up. Or maybe only got into or back into Batman with the "relaunch".

I'm hoping the reactions are covered in the titles as a result of this (which the reactions should be shown I feel).

[numberONE]

I agree, I would have liked to see more reactions. There is an Outsiders issue that deals with Green Arrow and Superman's reactions, though.

[Earl of the RCs]

That right there would be the problem. Not apart of the BftC main series. Many people might have simply skipped that event all together and just waited for the new titles and Batman/Detective to start back up. Or maybe only got into or back into Batman with the "relaunch".

I'm hoping the reactions are covered in the titles as a result of this (which the reactions should be shown I feel).

All the one shots were pretty heavily advetised as being `people deeling with the death of batman' though, I mean that is esentially what all the solitcs said the point of the one shots was! (so as to keep to main BftC arc action driven I guess). You cant really skip reading those and then say `they didn't cover people dealing with his death enough'. Someone not reading them isnt the same thing as DC not addressing the issues. (and all four of the Batman/'Tec issues that are set after FC focused on people- either Bruce himself or Alfred and Dick reacting to the `death' as well anyway.)

On top of that, character reactions are on ongoing thing, and most of the solits for the new and continuing titles seem to suggest that `dealing with Batman's `Death' (or non-Death) are a pretty big part of the various plots.

[Stephen Tetsu]

All the one shots were pretty heavily advetised as being `people deeling with the death of batman' though, I mean that is esentially what all the solitcs said the point of the one shots was! (so as to keep to main BftC arc action driven I guess). You cant really skip reading those and then say `they didn't cover people dealing with his death enough'. Someone not reading them isnt the same thing as DC not addressing the issues. (and all four of the Batman/'Tec issues that are set after FC focused on people- either Bruce himself or Alfred and Dick reacting to the `death' as well anyway.)

On top of that, character reactions are on ongoing thing, and most of the solits for the new and continuing titles seem to suggest that `dealing with Batman's `Death' (or non-Death) are a pretty big part of the various plots.

But their "reaction" usully consisted of them fighting crime and then for one panel, sitting there thinking about how bad things have gotten since Batman died. This method made it sorta seem as if the heroes didn't really care too much about the fact that Batman, the person, died, rather they cared that the Dark Knight had died.

[Damiean Dark]

Steve Rogers was handled far better by Marvel IMO thier was a true earthquake through the MU with his death he was missed as a symbol and a person by many heroes and ordinary civillians.

We all know it was a limited break (like batman will be) but Marvel really did handle it as if Captain America was really gone for good the whole civil war series was handled excellently from start to finish.

[Will44]

Well, he's not really dead.

And then to make matters worse, Bruce and Alfred both said no to a funeral, with good reason. Once criminals realized Batman was just missing, they went nuts. A funeral would have made them much more brazen. Of course, Superman could have shown up for a week and cleaned up Gotham, but that's besides the point.

This way Dick can take up the mantle and reaffirm that Batman is still out there. Right now he's just going up against rumors in the underworld that Batman died and having a hard time. Imagine if the criminals had confirmation with a televised funeral?

[Frisky Dingo]

Bruce's "death" or more accurately people's reactions to it definitely should been explored better. I would have liked that storyline to been included in the "Battle for the Cowl".

I totally missed this Mr. Freeze one shot people are talking about. What was it actually called? I was wondering what the hell Commissioner Gordon was talking about in that one issue of BftC when he mentioned Freeze.

[frostedone]

Bruce's "death" or more accurately people's reactions to it definitely should been explored better. I would have liked that storyline to been included in the "Battle for the Cowl".

I totally missed this Mr. Freeze one shot people are talking about. What was it actually called? I was wondering what the hell Commissioner Gordon was talking about in that one issue of BftC when he mentioned Freeze.

It was Battle for the Cowl: Commissioner Gordon one shot. It was a good Mr. Freeze vs Gordon story but didn't really show us Commissioner Gordon's reaction to Batman's death as much as him being like "O crap Batman's gone."

I wish we got to see how people reacted to Batman's death as a person. Show them dealing with their loss, show how Batman affected their lives beyond that of just fighting.

[BloodOps]

Well it is still very early, but I'm still personally looking forward to others reactions still like Zatanna, Wonder Woman, Superman on a larger scale etc.


I'm going to play the patient game.

[lepeos]

I think they didn't want to make it too big of a 'death' because we all know he's definitely coming back eventually, with Cap, I mean he was shot, and for all intensive purposes it seemed like they were going to keep him dead for a long time at least.

Probably didn't want to alienate potential movie-goers either, it would probably confuse them most of all

[Stephen Tetsu]

I think they didn't want to make it too big of a 'death' because we all know he's definitely coming back eventually, with Cap, I mean he was shot, and for all intensive purposes it seemed like they were going to keep him dead for a long time at least.

Probably didn't want to alienate potential movie-goers either, it would probably confuse them most of all

Tht method would work great if it were a lesser hero than Batman, but it wasn't. The person who died was The Freakin' Batman! When one of your main heroes *kinda* bites the dust, it would be a good idea to deal with the reaction of the other people of the DC universe rather than just plowing forward with other stories as if nothing had happened at all.

[Frisky Dingo]

It was Battle for the Cowl: Commissioner Gordon one shot. It was a good Mr. Freeze vs Gordon story but didn't really show us Commissioner Gordon's reaction to Batman's death as much as him being like "O crap Batman's gone."

I wish we got to see how people reacted to Batman's death as a person. Show them dealing with their loss, show how Batman affected their lives beyond that of just fighting.

Okay, thanks for the info. I'm surprised it didn't go more into his feelings about Batman being gone. That's lame.

I also would have definitely liked to see more of people's emotional reactions to Batman being "dead". It feels like that is an important element that was pretty much left out of the "Battle for the Cowl" books. Hopefully we'll see some of those feelings in the new Bat-books, besides "Red Robin" where that's one of the things pushing the book forward.

[carabas]

Tht method would work great if it were a lesser hero than Batman, but it wasn't. The person who died was The Freakin' Batman! When one of your main heroes *kinda* bites the dust, it would be a good idea to deal with the reaction of the other people of the DC universe rather than just plowing forward with other stories as if nothing had happened at all.
I don't know. Seems kinda pointles.
It's one thing to do this if the character is actually dead, like Captain America, even if you know he'll be back sooner or later (sooner, as it turns out, unfortunately).
But when the character has actually been shown to be very much alive, it seems just incredibly silly to waste much time examining his non-death.

[Stephen Tetsu]

I don't know. Seems kinda pointles.
It's one thing to do this if the character is actually dead, like Captain America, even if you know he'll be back sooner or later (sooner, as it turns out, unfortunately).
But when the character has actually been shown to be very much alive, it seems just incredibly silly to waste much time examining his non-death.

But the other heroes don't know that.

[carabas]

But the other heroes don't know that.That is besides the point: the reader knows it.

[frostedone]

That is besides the point: the reader knows it.

True the readers know it, but everyone in the DCU thinks he is dead. IT would be nice to see how Batman, the person, has affected their lives.

Right now it is like "Batman is dead. The city is in bad shape. We need a new Batman."

[paulski]

True the readers know it, but everyone in the DCU thinks he is dead. IT would be nice to see how Batman, the person, has affected their lives.

Right now it is like "Batman is dead. The city is in bad shape. We need a new Batman."

But... wasn't that Battle For the Cowl?

[Mundungus]

I get what carabas is saying that it would be pointless to exhaust panel-time to character reaction if the reader already knows that Bruce Wayne is alive and well.

But I think that's the point. As readers we know that while the present-day heroes believe him to be dead, he is in fact stuck in time. We can draw conclusions that the heroes have had moments where they have reflected extensively off-panel but it is something that's nice to see, and even smile about.

It's kind of like if you died but were able to watch what happened after your death and the way all the people reacted and dealt with it. When you're dead nothing matters to you (in my opinion) because, well, you're dead. But seeing the reactions of loved ones (and enemies), I think, would be aesthetically pleasing.

[frostedone]

But... wasn't that Battle For the Cowl?

Battle for the Cowl was susposed to be that but it was instead...one big Battle for Gotham. Very few reactions to Batman's death on a personal level. Even the one shot tie ins. I didn't read the Man Bat or Azrael ones though.

[numberONE]

I blame that on the fact, that the series was to short. For such a important moment in Batman continuity, Battle for the Cowl should have been longer than three issues. Six issues would have been good, IMO.

Also, it didn't help that got an artist to write this series. Don't get me wrong, I thought Tony Daniel did a decent job, given his inexperience, the importance of the story, and the little space he had to work with, but I don't really know what DC was thinking.

[paulski]

Battle for the Cowl was susposed to be that but it was instead...one big Battle for Gotham. Very few reactions to Batman's death on a personal level.

Certainly agree with you on that. It was a bit disappointing from that aspect.

[carabas]

I don't really know what DC was thinking.They were thinking "Instead of just carrying on right away with Morrison, Winick and Dini on the three main Bat-books, how about we first do a useles mini-event with 12 tie-ins that has pretty much zero content and is completely missable? We'll make tons of money."

[Super Buddies Forever]

I still argue that the best part of The Death of Superman was "Funeral For A Friend." It was seven issues of seeing Metropolis and the entire DCU reel from Superman's death. Yeah, we all knew he was coming back, but it still felt powerful to see the cast's reaction to the dead Superman and the "missing" Clark.

And yeah, we all know Bruce isn't dead, but you only get that good death story once. Instead of "Battle For the Cowl," it would have been nice to have gotten something more cohesive that explored the characters a bit deeper.

[Captain Jim]

I think part of the problem here was that from the end of RIP to the end of FC, all of the bat-titles were focused on Bruce being "missing," with everyone fearing the worst but not really knowing. That was the status quo for months until we finally got BFTC (which I liked, tie-in's and all), at which time the characters seemed to have resigned themselves to Bruce's death. It wasn't until just recently (Blackest Night #0 and the latest Batman, which showed a flash-back) that we even knew for sure that the bat-family was aware of the manner of Bruce's "death." I really think that there should have been at least an issue or two, prior to BFTC, that specifically followed up on the events of FC.

[frostedone]

I still argue that the best part of The Death of Superman was "Funeral For A Friend." It was seven issues of seeing Metropolis and the entire DCU reel from Superman's death. Yeah, we all knew he was coming back, but it still felt powerful to see the cast's reaction to the dead Superman and the "missing" Clark.

And yeah, we all know Bruce isn't dead, but you only get that good death story once. Instead of "Battle For the Cowl," it would have been nice to have gotten something more cohesive that explored the characters a bit deeper.


I think part of the problem here was that from the end of RIP to the end of FC, all of the bat-titles were focused on Bruce being "missing," with everyone fearing the worst but not really knowing. That was the status quo for months until we finally got BFTC (which I liked, tie-in's and all), at which time the characters seemed to have resigned themselves to Bruce's death. It wasn't until just recently (Blackest Night #0 and the latest Batman, which showed a flash-back) that we even knew for sure that the bat-family was aware of the manner of Bruce's "death." I really think that there should have been at least an issue or two, prior to BFTC, that specifically followed up on the events of FC.

I agree with both of you 100%.

[ANewHope]

Well How many books do you need to tell that story?

So far we have Tim Drake's perspective in finding the truth about batman in Red Robin.

We see Dick Grayson dealing with the loss of Bruce for almost 4 months now. It continues in Batman.

It looks like Batman Streets of Gotham will be a good book that follows how the city will react to the new Batman. Comissoner Gordon was questioned in #1 of Streets of Gotham and he pretty much stated he was never on a friend to friend basis with Batman. He never knew the man, he just requested his help from time to time.

We actually did see Tim Drake and Dick Grayson reacting to the death of Batman in the Robin and Nightwing RIP tie-ins and the final issues before those issues were reset.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't like a Batman Requiem issue like we saw in final Crisis, but the point is that only a few characters actually know that Bruce Wayne died and that Dick Grayson has taken up the mantle of Batman. So seeing the DC nation's reaction to the passing of Batman seems unlikely. And if there's never a funeral, then the majority of society will never know about it.

Gotham Sirens #1 ended with Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn demanding to know who the real Batman actually is from Catwoman. It'll be interesting if she actually tells them, but she was given a confession tonic to make her more willing to tell the truth.

[nepenthes]

The reason Batmans "death" felt a little void of impact is because the story that was originally supposed to deal with the fallout, Judd Winnicks Battle of the Cowl, was aborted and handed ovee to essentially an amateur writer. Tony Daniels only used a fraction of Winicks original outline and struggled awkwardly with the characters, logic and themes the story demanded. Battle or Cowl was supposed to be the exploration, but because Winicks outline packed too much in in, it was decided to spread it all out....and put to use in what we are only beginning to read now in Red Robin and the new Batman book.

So it seems that what isn't beleated has just been skipped over for the sake of getting on with the story.

[Captain Jim]

The reason Batmans "death" felt a little void of impact is because the story that was originally supposed to deal with the fallout, Judd Winnicks Battle of the Cowl, was aborted and handed ovee to essentially an amateur writer.

Your opinion


Tony Daniels only used a fraction of Winicks original outline

You make that sound like a fault. He did what editorial wanted.


and struggled awkwardly with the characters, logic and themes the story demanded.

Again, that's your opinion. And one you seem to be in the minority on.


Wow, you never miss an opportunity to insult this guy, do you?

[nepenthes]

Your opinion

of course



You make that sound like a fault. He did what editorial wanted.

I didn't mean to and I know that's what editorial wanted. I thought it was relevant to mention because if Winick did in fact plan out a story that explores Batmans death in three issues, and Daniels only used a fraction of it in three issues, then we are subsequently losing alot of the material that would give impact and context to his death.


Wow, you never miss an opportunity to insult this guy, do you?

I don't want to harp on about him, but in this particular case, if I believe that Daniels writing meant that impact was lost from the event of Batmans death (which is the thread topic) then I think it's fair to contribute that opinion here. But otherwise no you won't see me rubbishing Daniels if BotC is just mentioned in passing. I don't actually enjoy being negative about comics or creators.

[dupersuper]

That right there would be the problem. Not apart of the BftC main series. Many people might have simply skipped that event all together and just waited for the new titles and Batman/Detective to start back up. Or maybe only got into or back into Batman with the "relaunch".

I'm hoping the reactions are covered in the titles as a result of this (which the reactions should be shown I feel).

Well, presumably some one who felt the death of Batman wasn't being fully explored would want to pick up all the BftC stuff...:confused:

[Lemurion]

From what I've heard, one reason why they didn't go with Winick's version was that it would not have fit in three issues.

I enjoyed BftC, it wasn't the greatest Batman story ever told, but it was a perfectly enjoyable read.

As to character reactions, I'm watching them play out in the various Bat-books and so far they seem reasonable. As for Gordon's reaction in Streets: we don't know if that's his actual feelings or what he told the officer.

Time will tell - and so far the books are good.

[earl]

Yeah but he's not dead. Batman isn't really the type of character where everyone is going to circle around and cry around a statue anyway. I think the last issue of Batman covered all of this enough for me and that is the reason they did that issue. It's time to get back to business.

Somewhere in the DC universe there is a park with a whole lot of out of date statues at this point. Hawkman probably has his own garden or something. :biggrin:

[Captain Jim]

if Winick did in fact plan out a story that explores Batmans death in three issues, and Daniels only used a fraction of it in three issues, then we are subsequently losing alot of the material that would give impact and context to his death.


But Winick's original plan for this series was to have taken more than three issues. I forget exactly how many, but I remember it was to have come out twice/ month. For whatever reason, editorial decided they didn't want the story drawn out that long, and that's why they moved all of that non-essential stuff out of the mini and into the ongoing title.

[carabas]

they moved all of that non-essential stuff out of the mini

I don't know, but I skipped BFTC and its multitude of tie-ins almost completely, only read the first isue.
Reading the new books, I don't feel like I have missed anything that was essential.

[Captain Jim]

I don't know, but I skipped BFTC and its multitude of tie-ins almost completely, only read the first isue.
Reading the new books, I don't feel like I have missed anything that was essential.

I meant essential to the story they wanted to tell.

[vickvega]

I think Joker would be pretty interested in whats going on with Batman. Considering his life is only fulfilled when he's tormenting him. Why arent any writers exploring this aspect? Seems to me, he would want to know what happened to batman more than any other character.

[Mundungus]

Now that I think about it Batman isn't the kind of person you erect a statue for.

Outside of the Bat-family, there are only a few characters in his inner circle that care and respect him. Other than that, there are those that respect him, and others who find his demeanor off-puting.

He's definitely not a Superman.

[carabas]

I think Joker would be pretty interested in whats going on with Batman. Considering his life is only fulfilled when he's tormenting him. Why arent any writers exploring this aspect? Seems to me, he would want to know what happened to batman more than any other character.Give it time. The Joker doesn't even know Batman is dead yet.