Building a better Damien

[Spiffy]

Okay, it appears that we're stuck with him for a while, love it or hate it.

Rather than just groan and moan, lets discuss what WE think needs to be done with the character to make him at least tolerable (if not even awesome, eventually).


I'll start. I think he needs to fail. Noticeably. In a big way. Multiple times. If all we get is superninja skillz, supergenius mechanical and computer skillz, and a snot nose attitude, then he's being wasted. Damien needs to fail in such a way that even if he won't admit it, he has to begin to wonder, if just to himself, whether or not he's really all that awesome. He can't, or won't ever, admit out loud to Dick that he needs the training, or the attitude adjustment, but we need to see more moments of Damien alone, with nobody else in sight, where we see he's beginning to realize that he does. You can still balance that with him being a viscous little beast when necessary, since being humbled about his skillset isn't the same thing as adopting new morals. That leap, a change in morals, has to come later.

[Mambazo]

ll start. I think he needs to fail
If you can't see that Morrison is heading Damian towards some huge ego-shattering situation, than you're seriously crazy.

[CaptainOtter]

Okay, it appears that we're stuck with him for a while, love it or hate it.

Rather than just groan and moan, lets discuss what WE think needs to be done with the character to make him at least tolerable (if not even awesome, eventually).


I'll start. I think he needs to fail. Noticeably. In a big way. Multiple times. If all we get is superninja skillz, supergenius mechanical and computer skillz, and a snot nose attitude, then he's being wasted. Damien needs to fail in such a way that even if he won't admit it, he has to begin to wonder, if just to himself, whether or not he's really all that awesome. He can't, or won't ever, admit out loud to Dick that he needs the training, or the attitude adjustment, but we need to see more moments of Damien alone, with nobody else in sight, where we see he's beginning to realize that he does. You can still balance that with him being a viscous little beast when necessary, since being humbled about his skillset isn't the same thing as adopting new morals. That leap, a change in morals, has to come later.

I could get behind this. I think that even if he fails, he might not have to be well and truly "humbled". He can learn hes not invincible, but it doesnt have to happen overnight. After his failures, he might want to prove himself. Hell wonder if he is that awesome, but i think should want to remove those doubts by showing that he is better than whoever beats him. Its perfectly healthy for a hero to have some kind of competitive side, and I think that if Damian becomes a humble hero he will lose the potential to become something unique.

[WorstThingUS]

I've got no problem with Damien. I like the idea that Batman's son is a sociopath and the conflict between his persona and pretty much everyone around him a source of drama (as well as a little humor ). Not to mention you will inevitably see growth from him as a result of Dick's tutelage. Think of The Huntress when she first hooked with the Birds of Prey and their relationship now. In fact, she'd probably get along with Damien, but at the same time in her role as a teacher would know how to deal better with him and be the mother figure he never had. Yet another argument for more of her presence in the bat books.

So, no. No problems here. Let the good times roll.

[Spiffy]

If you can't see that Morrison is heading Damian towards some huge ego-shattering situation, than you're seriously crazy.

Listen, pal, I didn't say Morrison was or wasn't going to do it. I said it needs to happen. That's not a prediction either way.

Personally, I'd prefer it to be a situation where Damien's ego is chipped away bit by bit. But that's just a matter of preference. If its all build up to one big traumatic explosion, where Damien just goes nuts at the end, I'm not sure it would accomplish what I think needs to be done--making him readable in the short term. Writers sometimes get a bit too disconnected and think everything has to be big and dramatic. When they do that they forget that readers need to connect to characters, even "gray" ones, or bad guys. Morrison has gone on record saying that he thinks readers are going to rethink Damien by the end of this coming year. That makes me hopeful he understands that it won't be good enough to just push Damien in our faces as a homicidal little snot, have him traumatized, and then we're supposed to love him. He's got to be knocked down, as I said, but its got to be ongoing, one peg at a time, so we can get behind him struggling to do better.

[nepenthes]

If you can't see that Morrison is heading Damian towards some huge ego-shattering situation, than you're seriously crazy.

I wouldn't say you're crazy but yeah I definitely think there's plans to knock Damian around a little coming up. and I agree with Spiffy it would probably be more interesting to see a gradual process instead of one convenient, simplistic event.

I'm not too sure about Damian being a techno whiz though, with everything he is already that's just getting a little bit over the top. I like how each of the Robins had their own talent: Dick the acrobat, Jason the brawler, Tim the Detective. Damian needs something similar, instead of just being the best at Everything.

[Kiryu]

Damian needs to remain snotty and slightly obnoxious. He just has to do other great things to compensate.

I'm just going to sit back and watch Grant's plan for him develop and enjoy the heck out of reading about the new badass Robin.

[The Lucky One]

Damian needs to remain snotty and slightly obnoxious. He just has to do other great things to compensate.

Didn't work out so well for Jason Todd... but then again, Jason didn't have Grant Morrison keeping him safe for the foreseeable future, so I doubt Damien will be meeting the business end of a crowbar. :wink:

It would be better coming from Bruce, but since he's not around, it'd be nice to see Dick just flat-out tell him, right to his face, that he isn't half the Robin that Tim was on his worst day. I doubt Damien would actually believe it -- not coming from Dick, anyway -- but it'd be good to get it on record that that's how Dick feels (after his unintentional snub of Tim), and for Damien to know that the Batman (whether it's his dad or not) feels that way.

Never happen, but it'd be nice.

-D

[Kiryu]

Didn't work out so well for Jason Todd... but then again, Jason didn't have Grant Morrison keeping him safe for the foreseeable future, so I doubt Damien will be meeting the business end of a crowbar. :wink:

It would be better coming from Bruce, but since he's not around, it'd be nice to see Dick just flat-out tell him, right to his face, that he isn't half the Robin that Tim was on his worst day. I doubt Damien would actually believe it -- not coming from Dick, anyway -- but it'd be good to get it on record that that's how Dick feels (after his unintentional snub of Tim), and for Damien to know that the Batman (whether it's his dad or not) feels that way.

Never happen, but it'd be nice.

-D


Jason Todd was from a different era. He also didn't have the respect for the mantle and the skills to back up his arrogance. Jason was a thug, Damian is son of the Bat, trained from birth.

Could not be more different.

[Vic Vega]

I want the kid to die in a fire.:biggrin:

I dont even hate Damien as a character at all.

I just was really looking forward to Dick as Batman and Tim as Robin as their relationship as as portrayed has been one of the better thing about the batboks over all (they are not so much partners as they are sibling that get along really, really well).

I understand the in-story reason for Dick's choice(an unsupervised Damien is a disaster waiting to happen and Tim doesn't NEED Dick)

Ironic that Tim was too distraught to notice the complement that Dick gave him(you are my equal and by extension Bruce's)

Bruce might never have admitted that one ...

[Bat_Fan2232]

Im all for damian failing but i want his failure to be at the hands of Tim.:evilangry: I want tim to ruin this kid, put him below low. I want Damian to have a come-to-jesus and realize that being part of the bat family you need to treat people a certain way and not be such a brat

[The Lucky One]

Jason Todd was from a different era. He also didn't have the respect for the mantle and the skills to back up his arrogance. Jason was a thug, Damian is son of the Bat, trained from birth.

Could not be more different.

Oh, Damien's a thug -- make no mistake about that. Rather a nasty one, from what we've seen. It's just he's coming at it from a radically different perspective. Jason was a poor street kid lashing out against the world for its unfairness. Damien's a privileged brat who does whatever he wants, secure in the knowledge that Mommy and Daddy's combined influence and reputations will bail him out. If Bruce were a normal rich guy instead of the Batman, Damian would be the trust fund baby who gets a Porsche for his 16th birthday, parties his way through college amid some hushed-up rumors of date rape, and then takes a high-level position with no actual responsibility at Wayne Enterprises. Jason and Damian would hate everything about each other, totally oblivious to the fact that when you strip their backgrounds and circumstances away from each of them, the core is the same: a thug.

Damien. (http://www.theonion.com/content/news/wealthy_teen_nearly_experiences)

That can still change, of course. Hopefully it will.

-D

[Kylun123]

My only "concern" is that the transition happens too quickly.

Although I haven't read Batman since the Batman & Son TP, I want to see more annoying, snotty Damian before he all of a sudden becomes a character we're supposed to get behind.

Over the course of a year (it's gotta be at least a year til Bruce gets back, right?) at what point would you like Damian to come to that epic fail? Or in the case of a gradual realization at what point, how far into the run would you like/expect that to occur?

[Mia]

I could get behind this. I think that even if he fails, he might not have to be well and truly "humbled". He can learn hes not invincible, but it doesnt have to happen overnight. After his failures, he might want to prove himself. Hell wonder if he is that awesome, but i think should want to remove those doubts by showing that he is better than whoever beats him. Its perfectly healthy for a hero to have some kind of competitive side, and I think that if Damian becomes a humble hero he will lose the potential to become something unique.

I'm with this. Damian needs to be humbled and to learn a few lessons. But I still want him to be a bit cocky.

[Tanjint]

...Bruce isn't spoiled and bratty?

If you or I witnessed our parents murder...we wouldn't have the option to travel the world and train witht the finest gurus. Bruce and Damian aren't so different...Morrison's run largely discusses how Talia and Bruce just exist in a different socioeconomic stratosphere with the entire globe as a stage for their lives' dramas. It's not egalitarian and fair...but it's how it is.

A lot of people seem to despise Damian on a really personal level because he represents a certain economic class of people...but guess what? So does Bruce.

-T

[WorstThingUS]

Oh, Damien's a thug -- make no mistake about that. Rather a nasty one, from what we've seen. It's just he's coming at it from a radically different perspective. Jason was a poor street kid lashing out against the world for its unfairness. Damien's a privileged brat who does whatever he wants, secure in the knowledge that Mommy and Daddy's combined influence and reputations will bail him out.
-D

Yeah, he was so privileged that his mother wasn't around for most of his life, he never met his father until now and he was raised by sociopathic assassins. Wow, such a privilege not to have an ounce of love or tenderness all your life. Note how he has no idea how to deal with it when it comes from Alfred.

People also forget Jason was originally a straight up Dick Grayson clone, but post crisis this apparently wasn't interesting enough so he was retconned into being a street kid The Batman finds.

[CMBMOOL]

I've got no problem with Damien. I like the idea that Batman's son is a sociopath and the conflict between his persona and pretty much everyone around him a source of drama (as well as a little humor ). Not to mention you will inevitably see growth from him as a result of Dick's tutelage. Think of The Huntress when she first hooked with the Birds of Prey and their relationship now. In fact, she'd probably get along with Damien, but at the same time in her role as a teacher would know how to deal better with him and be the mother figure he never had. Yet another argument for more of her presence in the bat books.



It would be interesting to see how Helena deals with Damien. :tongue: