Detective Comics #854 (Preview & Discussion) [Archive]

Frisky Dingo

06-11-2009, 08:09 PM

Surprised to see there wasn't a thread for this already. So I took care of that for us. I'm assuming most people have seen the preview pages already, but if not check out this link:
http://www.dccomics.com/dcu/comics/?cm=11866

IGN also has a great interview with Greg Rucka up where he talks about Batwoman and The Question co-feature (the preview pages can be found there too). Definitely worth checking out:
http://comics.ign.com/articles/994/994084p1.html

IGN Comics: One of the most intriguing aspects of Batwoman's character is that she's the only character, outside of maybe Huntress back during No Man's Land, who had the audacity to take up the mantle of the Bat without the blessing of Batman. Is that an issue that will factor into this story?

Rucka: To a certain extent. Remembering that back in 52, she encountered Nightwing, who obviously would have reported back to Batman. Batman is cognizant of her and knows what she's up to. I guess you can look at it more like this – there's Batman and then there's a first generation set of heroes that he sort of mentors. You have Robin, Nightwing, Batgirl, and to a certain extent even Huntress. Huntress sort of bullied her way into the class, took a look around, and then decided she didn't really like it there. With Kate, she's the second generation, for lack of a better way to put it. With Kate, it's a difference of following the man and following the ideal. For her, the Bat doesn't mean Batman. For her, the Bat is like the flag. It's an emblem – like following the Stars and Stripes into battle.

That was one thing that really bugged me when Kate was introduced in "52", that she took up the Bat-mantle without approval from Batman or anything. I understand how Rucka appears to have setup Kate's reason behind taking up the emblem, not sure I necessarily agree with it, but definitely interested in seeing how Rucka handles it.

I wasn't too sure about this title at first (a lot having to do with how DC introduced the character, although Rucka blames a lot of that on the outside media in this interview, not sure I agree with that though) and the extra $1 doesn't help because I'm not really into Renee as The Question. However, that art is too awesome to turn down and I have faith in Rucka on this book, he seems really passionate about it. So now I'm definitely looking forward to Batwoman in "Detective Comics".

Ilash

06-11-2009, 08:18 PM

Yeah, I must say that I don't have any of your reservations. Everything I've heard and seen about this whole book sounds great.

Retro315

06-11-2009, 08:29 PM

Rucka really hit the comic writers lottery this year ... JH Williams and Cully Hamner ... in the same book ... Detective ...

Quinnhop

06-11-2009, 08:34 PM

They've been showing that preview for hella months now.

But now that we know who Batman is, we should be allowed to see at least the next page.

ScottyQuick

06-11-2009, 10:07 PM

She's got a distinct personal tragedy, as is requisite to wear the mantel of the bat.

I'll disagree with that. Barbara Gordon? Tim Drake? Completely motivated by a desire to help.

But as you'll see in the origin, there is a moment when she has to pay a huge price for the fact that she is gay.

My guess is she was in the army, came out, got kicked out. Rucka's stated that he's against the DADT rule, that Kate's an army brat, and now that she's completely comfortable with her identity.

SO EXCITED Y'ALL. SO EXCITED!

RonnieThunderbolts

06-11-2009, 10:44 PM

I'll disagree with that. Barbara Gordon? Tim Drake? Completely motivated by a desire to help.

Tim has said pretty much exactly what Greg said in the interview himself. Two issues before Tim Drake became Robin.

Tim Drake: My mother's dead. Dad'll spend the rest of his life in a chair. Both of them-- poisoned by the Obeah Man! I know why they do it now. Why they put on the suits, the masks, and go out into the night. They're angry. Full of rage. They want to hit back. They want to fill the hole that is burning inside them!

Tim was pushed into overdrive and actually did become Robin following a devastating personal tragedy.

Jorriss

06-11-2009, 10:46 PM

Word. Tim wanted to be Robin, and technically became Robin before those events occured but he became the ****ing man once shit hit the fan.

RonnieThunderbolts

06-12-2009, 12:12 AM

Word. Tim wanted to be Robin, and technically became Robin before those events occured but he became the ****ing man once shit hit the fan.

Very true, he came to want to be Robin, but it wasn't until then that he really thought he was ready, and desperately wanted to go out and punish evil-doers, you know? Although, about already becoming Robin, I disagree I think, even technically, he didn't become Robin until two issues following. It is all Tim talks/thinks about over those three issues, he's obsessing over it, over what it means to take on the mantle. He hallucinates visions of Dick and Jason and talks with Bruce and Alfred about being ready at that point. I know what you mean, he'd worn the costume once before, and Bruce agreed to train him and to consider letting Tim become Robin, but Bruce never made a guarantee, and they continue to talk in that issue about how he wasn't ready yet. Tim is awesome, I'm fine with him becoming Red Robin. He was his own man/hero as Robin and did fine with that inherited identity, he'll do just as well with this one, I'd hope.

As for Detective, I'm eagerly awaiting this. I know how much Greg takes pride in this, and it is the one title in the relaunch that I'm really most excited for.

Kate is a total cipher at this point, but that is because she has been on the periphery in her appearances for the most part. I really look forward to seeing what she is all about, and watching her grow from the beginning.

The art looks top notch, and the creators are genuinely passionate and excited for the product. This will be a fun read for me, I am sure of it.

nepenthes

06-12-2009, 02:33 AM

But now that we know who Batman is, we should be allowed to see at least the next page.

I'm pretty sure it's gonna be old Bruce in the costume here. MH Williams started working on this book at least two years ago, maybe more, so probably before Morrisons Batman & Robin plans were locked in. Also Rucka made a comment basically saying that readers who worry about timelines and such might have a bit of trouble with this book, which to me says that this doesn't exactly fit in with everything else that's currently going on.

RonnieThunderbolts

06-12-2009, 02:52 AM

Minor point, the artist is Jim Williams, JH Williams III, not MH.

Geeky Cheeky

06-12-2009, 08:45 AM

They've been showing that preview for hella months now.

But now that we know who Batman is, we should be allowed to see at least the next page.

If you want to see the next 2 page spread, check out JH Williams blog.

http://www.jhwilliams3.com/

Karl O'Neill

06-12-2009, 09:15 AM

Just beautiful. Can't wait.

NeoStar9X

06-12-2009, 09:28 AM

I'm pretty sure it's gonna be old Bruce in the costume here. MH Williams started working on this book at least two years ago, maybe more, so probably before Morrisons Batman & Robin plans were locked in. Also Rucka made a comment basically saying that readers who worry about timelines and such might have a bit of trouble with this book, which to me says that this doesn't exactly fit in with everything else that's currently going on.

Interesting. So it's possible this is all pre-Final Crisis or maybe even during it to a degree.

Now that I think about it this book would naturally be out of sync with the rest of the Batman books, at least for a while. Batman, Batman and Robin, Red Robin, Batman: Streets of Gotham, and Gotham Sirens are all spinning out of Battle for the Cowl and Sirens to a degree is spinning out of the last arc in Detective Comics and BftC. They are all on the same page and directly related. Detective is the odd one out due to it's star being outside of the Bat-family even those she wears the symbol.

Lorendiac

06-12-2009, 10:01 AM

That was one thing that really bugged me when Kate was introduced in "52", that she took up the Bat-mantle without approval from Batman or anything. I understand how Rucka appears to have setup Kate's reason behind taking up the emblem, not sure I necessarily agree with it, but definitely interested in seeing how Rucka handles it.

I think I still haven't read anything with the new Batwoman in it. (For instance, I've never bothered with "52.") So I don't have much of an opinion about her personality and qualifications and backstory.

But I do seem to recall that Babs Gordon didn't bother begging Batman for permission before she put on a Batgirl costume and started fighting Killer Moth. I don't think the Silver Age Batwoman bothered to get Batman's permission in advance, either! Nor did her niece, Betty Kane, the original Bat-Girl. Nor did Helena Bertinelli as Batgirl when she was filling in for Batman in the early days of NML (since he had gone into a hard-to-believe childish sulk for a few months and thus there was a serious Batman-shaped vacuum in Gotham City!)

For that matter -- if you prefer the version of Dick Grayson's origin which was offered in Loeb's "Dark Victory," then I believe he created a Robin costume and started fighting baddies in it before Batman had ever gotten around to saying, "Kid, I think you're ready for field work. How do you feel about the name Robin?" or anything similar.

So can't we say that the newest Batwoman is simply "Continuing the Sacred Tradition of Presenting Batman With a Fait Accompli"?

(P.S. Did the Pre-COIE Earth-2 Huntress, Helena Wayne, bother to get Daddy's permission before she put on a costume the first time?)

OverMaster

06-12-2009, 11:12 AM

(P.S. Did the Pre-COIE Earth-2 Huntress, Helena Wayne, bother to get Daddy's permission before she put on a costume the first time?)

No, IIRC, Bruce didn't even know Helena was the Huntress at first.

Lorendiac

06-12-2009, 11:26 AM

No, IIRC, Bruce didn't even know Helena was the Huntress at first.

That's what I vaguely thought I had heard, but I don't think I've actually read her origin story.

So it looks like the norm for people who want to be female Batman imitators is to take this attitude: "I'll put on a costume, start running around Gotham fighting crime . . . and maybe that high-and-mighty Batman will eventually, reluctantly, belatedly give me something resembling 'royal permission' to keep imitating him. Or maybe he won't! Life is full of these little uncertainties!"

(Come to think of it: The Pre-COIE Jason Todd wore a Robin costume without getting Batman's permission first -- and got slapped down for it (verbally, not physically, and Batman later apologized for getting too harsh with him, anyway). In "A Lonely Place of Dying," Tim Drake wore the Robin costume without permission and got away with it; at the end of the story, he was offered the chance to become Batman's newest apprentice-in-training. The people, male and female, who claim to be inspired by Batman in their own crimefighting activities sure seem to regard "getting his permission first" as an unnecessary formality on many occasions! :smile: )

Alexx1

06-12-2009, 12:31 PM

No, IIRC, Bruce didn't even know Helena was the Huntress at first.

What's your timeline here? IIRC, there is nothing specificly written as to when and where he figured it out but I do believe we are suppose to assume he knew almost from jump that Helena was Huntress, The thing I remember most was when he and Tim came across her wounded body when Checkmate was after her, and Tim rushed to her and about called her by name before he caught himself. Batman told Tim he already knew who she was and that seem to throw Tim a little. Prior to Ivory Madison's Huntress Year One, that's the only thing I ever remember reading that implied he had prior knowledge to who she was. Now introducting Huntress Year One into the equation, there's plenty to suggest and one can easily deduce he began to put it together then and figured it out almost immediately upon her arrival to Gotham wearingThe Huntress suit. That's how I saw it at least.

RonnieThunderbolts

06-12-2009, 12:43 PM

What's your timeline here?

Read the post he's responding to "Pre-Crisis Earth 2 Huntress" was the character he was referring to.

Alexx1

06-12-2009, 12:46 PM

Read the post he's responding to "Pre-Crisis Earth 2 Huntress" was the character he was referring to.

I see. I misunderstood. Thanks.

RonnieThunderbolts

06-12-2009, 12:53 PM

I see. I misunderstood. Thanks.

No problem, glad to help.

marvelprince

06-12-2009, 01:01 PM

I think I still haven't read anything with the new Batwoman in it. (For instance, I've never bothered with "52.") So I don't have much of an opinion about her personality and qualifications and backstory.

But I do seem to recall that Babs Gordon didn't bother begging Batman for permission before she put on a Batgirl costume and started fighting Killer Moth. I don't think the Silver Age Batwoman bothered to get Batman's permission in advance, either! Nor did her niece, Betty Kane, the original Bat-Girl. Nor did Helena Bertinelli as Batgirl when she was filling in for Batman in the early days of NML (since he had gone into a hard-to-believe childish sulk for a few months and thus there was a serious Batman-shaped vacuum in Gotham City!)

For that matter -- if you prefer the version of Dick Grayson's origin which was offered in Loeb's "Dark Victory," then I believe he created a Robin costume and started fighting baddies in it before Batman had ever gotten around to saying, "Kid, I think you're ready for field work. How do you feel about the name Robin?" or anything similar.

So can't we say that the newest Batwoman is simply "Continuing the Sacred Tradition of Presenting Batman With a Fait Accompli"?

(P.S. Did the Pre-COIE Earth-2 Huntress, Helena Wayne, bother to get Daddy's permission before she put on a costume the first time?)

I think the point Greg was trying to make is that not only did Kate not ask for permission, so could care less about whether she got his acceptance or not. Nearly everyone you named at least hoped to get Batman's approval at some point whereas Batwoman doesn't seem to give a damn.

numberONE

06-12-2009, 04:26 PM

The art looks awesome in this issue!

So, you think this is Bruce Batman? I'm not to sure, considering the "Batman: Reborn" banner on the cover. That could just be a marketing thing, though.

Anyway, I'm glad to see a Batman is appearing at all. I was under the impression that he wouldn't be in this book.

IvCNuB4

06-24-2009, 12:29 PM

God, the art on the main feature is incredible. This picks up after "Crime Bible". Her meeting with Batman (Dick) is short but well done. Loved his comment about her flowing hair. Something of an inside joke to her as we later see what happens when she takes the mask off: (highlight) Shades of the TV Batgirl ! :wink:
We get a little background on Kate as we see here at home with her dad, then her jumping back into action against the Covens in Gotham. A quick read but I really liked it !

Kiryu

06-24-2009, 12:34 PM

Gitaroo_Dude

06-24-2009, 12:37 PM

Kiryu

06-24-2009, 12:41 PM

I'm not sure what to say about the art on this. I should probably stop using 'awesome' and 'fantastic' a little liberally because it should be reserved for stuff like this. Just mind-blowing art from Williams III. That splash page near the end rocked my world.

And Rucka does a good job too. I may end up trade waiting the series after the first arc if the pace feels better in one read to me, but he's doing a great job too.

JH is beyond amazing. All you cats who love him need to check out Desolation Jones by him and Warren Ellis. And if you haven't, The Black Glove with Grant Morrison. I haven't gotten to Promethia yet but it's JH and Moore so.

Really, JH and Quietly on the Bat-Books? We have the best art in comics right now. Easy. No other book comes close.

Mundungus

06-24-2009, 02:38 PM

Word. Tim wanted to be Robin, and technically became Robin before those events occured but he became the ****ing man once shit hit the fan.

Tim wanted to become Robin because he was motivated to help others, but he really filled the role when reality came knocking on his door.

---

My thoughts on Detective Comics #854? Gimme more. This book was pure, visual ecstasy. Williams' inventive page layouts were able to convey a lot of story points in a condensed format without stifling the pace. Even though I had passing interest in Batwoman during 52, Rucka really made me want to invest in the character with this issue.

I also enjoyed reading the exploits of Renee Montoya again.

I also argue that Detective Comics #854 is a historical milestone in comicdom. It begins a double feature of two strong, female leads in one of the industry's longest running periodicals.

Chino

06-24-2009, 05:22 PM

Pretty good book even if I'm not too sure what the hell was going on LOL.

I understand what happened, but the why and who of it went right over my head. I admit this is my first exposure to this character. How much backstory is available here? Who is the colonel dude? Who was that chick in the white doll outfit? Covens? What's with the Special Forces tattoo?

spidervenom

06-24-2009, 06:16 PM

drinkblatzbeer

06-24-2009, 09:50 PM

Big surprise for me...
i really had no interest at all until i realised williams was drawing it...
now, it's gonna be on the monthly pile of purchases for a while...
interesting story, GREAT art, and a decent back-up feature...

the bat books might just be the best thing going in comics at this point...

StoneGold

06-25-2009, 01:23 AM

Wasn't DiDio's whole thing that Kathy was a lipstick lesbian? she's looking a bit more butch.

And from the menorah on the double spread with her father, looks like Rucka decided to link her with her namesake a little more.

Melfice

06-25-2009, 01:43 AM

JH is beyond amazing. All you cats who love him need to check out Desolation Jones by him and Warren Ellis. And if you haven't, The Black Glove with Grant Morrison. I haven't gotten to Promethia yet but it's JH and Moore so.

Really, JH and Quietly on the Bat-Books? We have the best art in comics right now. Easy. No other book comes close.

I agree with you. I finished reading Detective Comics #854 and was impressed with the art and style JH was using! Batman & Robin and Detective Comics are epic and I can't wait to cont reading them both every month!

Its funny because I was worried that Detective Comics was going to be weak, but was I wrong...it blew me a way and I love it! Batwoman is here to stay ;)

Retro315

06-25-2009, 01:56 AM

Man, that was a good read.

No knocks on Rucka, because the story is great, Kate Kane is certainly getting fleshed out, the continuation of the Religion of Crime (now sans Order of the Stone) with this Alice (awesome character) and talk of her cousin Bette and the general military background is awesome. The dialogue is top notch.

But the art just raises it like ... I hesitate to say another level. More like another stratosphere. All the right personal notes of character in the facial expressions, whether it's a lips-pursed exhale of frustration at losing a girlfriend, determination while working out, and utter glee at being able to terrify people in the Batwoman costume.

Absolutely 100% killer. Her setup is nice (but definitely not as secure as Batman's setup). I laughed at the band poster she's got that's named after Darkseid - what did Morrison call Final Crisis? A death metal apocalypse. And Kate was one of Darkseid's Furies, of all things!

(Side note: I'm more confident about Robinson using her in Cry For Justice now that he's been working so ridiculously close with Rucka on every other book he's doing).

The nuances in art ... (that alley cat racing away in the shadowy background in the first scene)

Then The Question story - pretty much what I expected from a 10 pager, which is to say - not quite a full issue's goodness, but at the same time, Rucka's nuance helps give some information if you look close enough. For starters, I like the operation itself - sifting through people with "questions" online looking for cases where people aren't asking enough questions and going to deal with them. It reminds me a little of ... The X-Files. And The Lone Gunmen. Can't fault it for that, I'm a huge X-Files junkie.

Cully Hamner's pencils are slick, detailed, but I wasn't that thrilled with the coloring. Too bright, it kind of kills the Film Noir/urban decay crime drama vibe. It was weird watching Montoya poke her head into a room that's totally being used for sex-slave trade/bondage style situations or whatever, and having it be so bright and colorful. Desaturate it! Otherwise it was a killer co-feature with just enough set-up and a good cliffhanger. We have to wait next month? What the hell?

SpiderS

06-25-2009, 03:46 AM

Totally love that issue, for all these years since 52 #11, at last a real full comic book about Batwoman! Jesus where they was so long?! Awesome art with nice story, I love how Rucka is writing Kate, we seeing that Kate is real die hard type woman, she's almost like Batman in year one, but she still need to understand herself who she is I.M.O. That issue have a strong charm and awesome atmosphere, what is rare for comic books in our time... wanna more of this!

AJM

06-25-2009, 05:07 AM

I know nothing of the background of Batwoman but was definitely a great comic. My only complaint is that it was over too soon - the bonus Question story made me feel like i had quite a few pages to go... and i really wish i did. I'm already buying the HC when it comes out, it will look stunning.

nepenthes

06-25-2009, 05:35 AM

It's official, this is gonna be a special book. Art, dialogue, the whole feel of the thing.

I'm quite interested in the old guy who is apparently her dad and ex-army. what's his deal

also liked the shifting mood and style between her vigilante and civilian life

she shoots a wacked out 'coven leader' point blank, "whatever" :cool:. and that Alice chick seemed genuinely creepy and intriguing

C. Earl

06-25-2009, 05:38 AM

I thought it was great, but I also thought it was over too quickly. It was like seeing the first five or six minutes of a really cool film and then get hit with a "To be continued next month..."

Really wished the extra pages for the Question could have been used for the main story...

IvCNuB4

06-25-2009, 08:46 AM

Wasn't DiDio's whole thing that Kathy was a lipstick lesbian? she's looking a bit more butch.

No. It was the media-coverage that coined that phrase ...

AJM

06-25-2009, 09:33 AM

Ishe shoots a wacked out 'coven leader' point blank

What do you think was in that gun? I don't think it's a normal bullet, her Dad said it was special and 'silent'. Maybe some sort of dart? Anyway, obviously Alice will be in the next issue, so it must be something different.

Free-Man

06-25-2009, 09:58 AM

What do you think was in that gun? I don't think it's a normal bullet, her Dad said it was special and 'silent'. Maybe some sort of dart? Anyway, obviously Alice will be in the next issue, so it must be something different.

A think it might be some sort of non-lethal laser or something. Ya know, like a bolt of energy that incapacitates the victim, like a taser or something. Because chances are, she wants Alice alive.

CocktailXYZ

06-25-2009, 10:18 AM

Global Honored

06-25-2009, 10:28 AM

Interested to find out more about this Alice. Art looks great, JH does Kane well with bright white skin set against equally bright read lips/hair/cape/symbol..it's all nicely done. Nice tats Kat! We already get the relationship breakup in the opening pages.Maybe Kate can be a female version of Marvel's Matt Murdock and work her way through relationships oh so smoothly. The suit looks great, bike superb, nice layout of her place. Cully knocked the Question pages out of the park as well. Really digging the look of that story and Renee's character. Quality stuff. Nice set ups and I will be back for ish 2.

Karl O'Neill

06-25-2009, 10:59 AM

This issue was just splendid. I want more already.

The art was superior than anything else on the shelves this week.

I am really interested in where this title in going, The back up tale was really cool as well.

Rucka always writes strong women. I like the new villain as well.

Wow.

10 out of 10.

This is the second best book to come of the batman reborn launch.

NickFury90

06-25-2009, 11:11 AM

Kiryu

06-25-2009, 11:56 AM

Loved this issue. I didn't know anything about Batwoman prior to this, but I feel like I totally understand her now. She's not just a female Batman; she uses guns, she rides around on a motorcycle, her dad is alive and well and is her version of "Alfred" if you will, she's a completely ****-up with her lesbian relationships, heck even the way she interrogates people is completely different from Batman. You can tell she has a messed up past(possible rape, maybe) and she's made some mistakes, but she keeps moving forward in her life.

And the artwork...oh dear lord, THE ARTWORK. Words really can't describe it. We really do have to come up with another adjective to do JH Williams III's art justice. The way he can channel several different art styles perfectly, his innovative layouts, his unparalleled storytelling structure...wow. He and Frank Quitely are so above all the other artists in the industry, its really not fair.

Bruce Wayne can stay in the past for awhile, IMO. Between Detective Comics and Batman and Robin, I haven't been this interested in the Batman family since...well ever.

I agree on all points! JH and Frank are on a level beyond anything they've been at prior to these Bat-offerings. B&R and Detective Comics are easily the best looking books available right now. And hell, I'd go ahead and call them the best written too.

While I'm not enthralled with the rest of the Bat-Relaunch, these two books ALONE are more then worth a lack of Bruce Wayne.

This is going to be a must have in hardcover and is a fine example of just how frigging good comics can get.

Seraku

06-25-2009, 12:25 PM

If Rucka were writting this with any other artist it would simply have been very good, but damn if JH Williams doesn't have the midas touch.

alf_to_the_rescue

06-25-2009, 01:12 PM

Well this was the very 1st issue of Detective comics I've ever bought. And only really the 2nd ever bat related book, with the first one being the recent Batman and Robin. Wasn't even thinking of getting this but I just saw the cover and remembered seeing the previews and just thought the art was amazing. Such a huge step up from most of the dross out there.

From the striking visual of Batwoman with the flaming red hair... to the crazy ass "alice" woman, to the working relationship she has with her dad. Now its going to start being a must buy for me every month.

Gitaroo_Dude

06-25-2009, 01:39 PM

Loved this issue. I didn't know anything about Batwoman prior to this, but I feel like I totally understand her now. She's not just a female Batman; she uses guns, she rides around on a motorcycle, her dad is alive and well and is her version of "Alfred" if you will, she's a completely fuck-up with her lesbian relationships, heck even the way she interrogates people is completely different from Batman. You can tell she has a messed up past(possible rape, maybe) and she's made some mistakes, but she keeps moving forward in her life.

And the artwork...oh dear lord, THE ARTWORK. Words really can't describe it. We really do have to come up with another adjective to do JH Williams III's art justice. The way he can channel several different art styles perfectly, his innovative layouts, his unparalleled storytelling structure...wow. He and Frank Quitely are so above all the other artists in the industry, its really not fair.

Bruce Wayne can stay in the past for awhile, IMO. Between Detective Comics and Batman and Robin, I haven't been this interested in the Batman family since...well ever.

Yeah, it's pretty nuts.

I prefer Marvel's overall stable of artists, but they really have no one that can compare to either Quitely or Williams. That both men are working on the Batbooks currently is probably a once in a lifetime event.

It's a shame that Bruce Wayne will be returning. I'd love for nothing more than having Morrison and Rucka continue writing stories about these teams for the forseeable future. Batman & Robin and Detective Comics are way more intresting right now than more stories about Bruce.

Adam C

06-25-2009, 02:26 PM

Wasn't DiDio's whole thing that Kathy was a lipstick lesbian? she's looking a bit more butch.

I barely noticed myself. Granted I didn't read 52 but it's not like her hair cut or clothes seen in this issue are particularly masculine either.

And from the menorah on the double spread with her father, looks like Rucka decided to link her with her namesake a little more.

Yeah I noticed. Though wasn't it established back in 52 that she's Jewish?

Anyways I'll be back (possibly much) later with my thoughts on the comic as I have some things to do.

theXfactor

06-25-2009, 02:54 PM

Loved this issue! JH Williams is the best and I really like Rucka and Hamner too.

Phil

06-25-2009, 03:36 PM

I barely noticed myself. Granted I didn't read 52 but it's not like her hair cut or clothes seen in this issue are particularly masculine either.

Yeah, she's kinda bruised, cause she's fighting crime, and has a shorter 'do than in 52, but she's still pretty feminine. Renee is looking a little butch, but she always has.
Like everyone else, I dug this and will continue to read it. I did feel the pacing was a little off. For instance, when she meets with Batman they are talking for a couple of panels, then we get this big two-page, full-bleed, half-splash page with no words. It felt like a pause in the conversation rather than a big reveal.
It's a minor criticism considering how beautiful the rest is. Not just the art, but certain scenes like the last page... "whatever." that was fun.

Something funny I noticed is that both Kate and Renee have old men who drink coffee helping them while they look at computers.

Lemurion

06-25-2009, 06:43 PM

I thoroughly enjoyed it and I'm looking forward to the next issue.

One thing surprises me though: it wasn't even mentioned in "The Buy Pile." I don't expect Hannibal Tabu to love the same books I do, but I would have thought this issue was sufficiently important to merit a mention.

Will.S

06-25-2009, 06:47 PM

Art was great but the story has yet to grip me. Of course, we're just out of the gate, so it has a few issues to grow before I pass a personal judgment.

The way the issue was laid out felt like a lot of style over substance. A lot of the page spreads with the uneven paneling made it hard for me to follow the action. Almost made me yearn for those really old school setups where mini-arrows indicated the reading order.

So currently underwhelmed, but not dropping it just yet.
While I wasn't as underwhelmed as you were and the art looked great, I did feel that this issue was a little more flash than substance, especially for a Greg Rucka book.

I liked all of the foundation being laid here with her home base, her dad, and the ties to the 52 material with the heart wound. But due to this title having taken such a long time to be released, it feels somewhat strange to read 52 references since its been a while since that book ended and she had the most significant events happen to her there. Perhaps Greg is playing around with time and this takes place at an earlier point in time between Crime Bible and Revelations but it could just as easily be in the more current continuity.

The art on the other hand was fantastic, I especially liked how the Batwoman parts looked significantly darker and more noir than the parts where we see a normal Kate Kane with her girlfriend and her dad. I did have some problems with the panel layout at times though since J.H. seems to be trying to be TOO clever with the composition in the action scenes.

Since I've really enjoyed Greg's Question I was very happy to see Renee here and her supporting cast of Tot on top of the further nod to Vic Sage by dyeing her hair blonde. Great art by Cully Hamner although I don't think it fits all that well with the book but I'm a happy camper about the back up nonetheless.

7.5/10

The art looks awesome in this issue!

So, you think this is Bruce Batman? I'm not to sure, considering the "Batman: Reborn" banner on the cover. That could just be a marketing thing, though.
Personally, I think its Dick. He's had more interaction with her than Bruce during 52 and artists tend to sometimes ignore the design tweaks that Quitely gave him as Batman. But I suppose it could also have been Bruce since there weren't any real references to when this took place. Really enjoyed the scene though.

Maybe Kate can be a female version of Marvel's Matt Murdock and work her way through relationships oh so smoothly.
I would say that Manhunter fills out that role at the moment.

Dragen

06-25-2009, 07:37 PM

Why is she so white? Did they run out of skincolor?

Will.S

06-25-2009, 07:38 PM

Why is she so white? Did they run out of skincolor?
I guess its to make her more scary/vamp looking.

dreyga2000

06-25-2009, 07:42 PM

Why is she so white? Did they run out of skincolor?

Staying up all night battling drug dealers and taking on supervillains can't be good for one's complextion.... You try it some time... Looks are the first thing to go...

Retro315

06-25-2009, 08:31 PM

Why is she so white? Did they run out of skincolor?

Some of us are indeed that white. It's better not to stare ... not for manners or shame or anything like that ... but the glare of the sun off of the skin can blind people who aren't wearing sunglasses or who are used to living in a desert ...

If my Ginger-expertise is up to snuff, I'd say Kate Kane is a Daywalker.

Adam C

06-25-2009, 09:55 PM

Why is she so white? Did they run out of skincolor?

In an interview with J.H. Williams he said that Rucka had wanted the colourists to give her vampire white skin from the time she was introduced.

Mundungus

06-25-2009, 10:08 PM

Kate comes off as straight-lace and hardcore when she's Batwoman but it's clear that doesn't translate to her personal life. She's one of those hero-types who sacrifice their personal life for their heroics, yet still tries to juggle it from time to time. Her interest in romantic partners seems to indicate that she seeks those straight-edge/hardcore types.

Just some character profiling.

Adam K

06-25-2009, 11:10 PM

\Her interest in romantic partners seems to indicate that she seeks those straight-edge/hardcore types.

What in the **** are you talking about?

Phil

06-25-2009, 11:20 PM

What in the **** are you talking about?

Probably the breakfast date Kate was on...er, missed. Her date seemed very serious and stable and straight-laced and couldnt handle kates flakey-ness. But that's probably the type kate will go for to counter balance her crazy life.

NickFury90

06-25-2009, 11:20 PM

Why is she so white? Did they run out of skincolor?

What, albinos can't fight crime now?

Albinoist

Kiryu

06-26-2009, 12:33 AM

Why is she so white? Did they run out of skincolor?

The snow white skin makes perfect sense to me. Kate is active as Batwoman at night and from the look of it seems to sleep most of the day. You don't really catch many rays when you're indoors training or out in the moonlight fully covered in black leather.

AiyokuSama

06-26-2009, 01:40 AM

The snow white skin makes perfect sense to me. Kate is active as Batwoman at night and from the look of it seems to sleep most of the day. You don't really catch many rays when you're indoors training or out in the moonlight fully covered in black leather.

Speaking as overnight shift worker that does sleep most of the day, you'd still have to be really pale to start. I'm a reasonably light skintone myself, but even is still get some colour in me.

Jimmy'sFriend

06-26-2009, 05:08 AM

Detective Comics 854

Here's my review:
These big red boots were made for kicking the shit out of Gotham’s villains as Batwoman takes the reigns of Detective Comics with this issue. Writer Greg Rucka delivers a solid first issue for the new bitch in town. The Religion of Crime, an old nemesis for our heroine, is crowning a new leader and Gotham must be prepared for a fight. Why they are interested in Batwoman adds a nice spice of mystery to this read and future issues.
J.H. Williams III’s art is the hands down star of this issue. The pages of Batwoman in action are stylized with a superb and refined finish. They are panels and pages that are worthy of purchase for a collection. Dave Stewart’s colors provide a dramatic touch to an already polished work. There is a sensual quality to this book from her glossy lips to her black spandex. It’s too bad she’s batting for the other team. Yes, she’s gay and the necessary conversation with a troubled flame had to be included. It did fit into establishing deep to the character so I didn’t mind too much. I wasn’t a fan of the art depicting the “normal” moments for life. However, the two distinct art forms serve as an appropriate contrast between the mundane and heroic.
I liked the fact that Rucka let the art take center stage of this issue. Not many word balloons, but great action. The tradeoff was a weak plot for an opening issue. The addition feature “The Question” was a big waste; get rid of it and let me save a dollar.
3.5 out of 5

vitruvian

06-26-2009, 07:29 AM

Speaking as overnight shift worker that does sleep most of the day, you'd still have to be really pale to start. I'm a reasonably light skintone myself, but even is still get some colour in me.

So, she's not an albino, but she's a natural redhead who has always taken care not to get enough sun exposure to freckle. That can equal really, really pale.

Or she uses makeup when in costume to accentuate her paleness and suggest (along with the red parts of her costume) not so subtly that she might be vampiric in nature.

Or she's actually undead or just anemic since beng transformed into a Female Fury and stabbed through the heart (or whatever order those actually happened in).

Karl O'Neill

06-26-2009, 08:38 AM

Just read this again. The art is so mesmerising.

Mercurialblonde

06-26-2009, 08:41 AM

She looks pale because it looks really amazing on the page.

Suspend your goshdarn belief!

That said. People are really that pale. Especially gingers.

Karl O'Neill

06-26-2009, 12:36 PM

5 star review from CBR

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=user_review&id=1154

christoph68

06-26-2009, 12:54 PM

loved the issue!

the only reason i'm picking up detective comics IS for the batwoman and question story line.

Phil

06-26-2009, 01:54 PM

loved the issue!

the only reason i'm picking up detective comics IS for the batwoman and question story line.

me too. I stopped reading shortly after the 1 year later stories but I was interested enough in Batwoman to pick this up. Glad I did.

Ben Hawkins

06-26-2009, 01:55 PM

I read the issue today and I absoloutly loved it. In general, I've liked all of the Batman:Reborn books I read, and with the exception of Justice Society (dropped it somewhere in the Kingdom Come arc, which just refused to end), it's the first thing I've read from DC since Infinite Crisis.
The only things I knew about Batwoman before I read the issue were that she's gay and redhead, and in one issue, Rucka succeeded in making her a complex and well-defined character.
And the art is so beautifull. I loved how the colors and the panel's shape change when she moves from Batwoman to her real-life.
I can see why some people say that the issue was more about style that about the plot, but I don't agree. It had both plot and compelling characters and style, it was both intriguing and fun. Although, I too though that the pages where Batman leaves and she rides on her motorcycle were a bit off, and not big as they were intended to be, and I'm not sure about the colonel as a supporting character - seemed a bit forced to me.
I was only dissappointed by the Question co-feature, which is strange because I generally like Rene. It just felt like a generic detective plot with medicore art, which ended in the middle of the story. But it can get better, 8 pages aren't enough to judge anything.

Karl O'Neill

06-26-2009, 01:57 PM

I hope the question feature bleeds into the main feature.

RunningWithJuanPablo

06-26-2009, 03:30 PM

This issue was great, and the art & layout was SICK! Kate is super rich right?

nepenthes

06-26-2009, 09:24 PM

yeah I thought the tree growing through the middle of her ops room was pretty cool.

and for once we have a Bat vigilante who isn't a total orphan.

christoph68

06-26-2009, 09:33 PM

me too. I stopped reading shortly after the 1 year later stories but I was interested enough in Batwoman to pick this up. Glad I did.

I was never a big fan of batman:eek:
or superman either:eek: :eek:
i've got a couple old issues of detective comics from the 70's when i was growing up otherwise any books i have about him are some kind of team up themed books [dc comics presents, jla, batman family and such].

now i get superman/batman but that's it; their both in it and supergirl started in it and she's why i picked it up.:biggrin:

Mundungus

06-26-2009, 11:11 PM

Probably the breakfast date Kate was on...er, missed. Her date seemed very serious and stable and straight-laced and couldnt handle kates flakey-ness. But that's probably the type kate will go for to counter balance her crazy life.

Yeah. Sorry. My random introspection was random. It was late.

Phil

06-27-2009, 12:43 AM

. In general, I've liked all of the Batman:Reborn books I read

And the art is so beautifull. I loved how the colors and the panel's shape change when she moves from Batwoman to her real-life.

I can see why some people say that the issue was more about style that about the plot, but I don't agree. It had both plot and compelling characters and style, it was both intriguing and fun.

I've also liked the new Batman and Robin

I noticed an inconsistency in the art, but didn't realize the superhero/civilan difference until you pointed it out. I think that's pretty sweet.

As far as the plot, I think it's pretty cool that she's an integral part of a religion that worships crime, but she doesn't know why. And it's headed by yet another crazy Gotham fairy-tale villain. This should be a lot of fun.

Retro315

06-27-2009, 01:48 AM

Ben Hawkins

06-27-2009, 04:59 AM

I've also liked the new Batman and Robin

I noticed an inconsistency in the art, but didn't realize the superhero/civilan difference until you pointed it out. I think that's pretty sweet.

As far as the plot, I think it's pretty cool that she's an integral part of a religion that worships crime, but she doesn't know why. And it's headed by yet another crazy Gotham fairy-tale villain. This should be a lot of fun.

Agree with you about the plot, although I didn't understant all of it while reading the issue (that she's an intergal part of this religion), but it's a fun plot nonetheless, with stunning art.
Yes, Batman and Robin was plain awesome, and I liked the 60s fun vibe. since DKR, all of the Batman stories just followed Miller's vision for the character, and it's refreshing to see something different. (because a never-ending comic book series can't always follow the same vision and stories).
and I also liked Red Robin (because Tim Drake is just a good character, can't believe I discovered him only now.), but I'm not sure about this yet, and the art was generic DC art, and not a good one.

Karl O'Neill

06-27-2009, 07:17 AM

Anybody else notice the darkside poster in her living room?

Mundungus

06-27-2009, 09:14 AM

but I'm not sure about this yet, and the art was generic DC art, and not a good one.

You thought Red Robin's art was generic DC art or Detective Comics? I'm just curious.

Ben Hawkins

06-27-2009, 10:16 AM

You thought Red Robin's art was generic DC art or Detective Comics? I'm just curious.

Red Robin's art, of course.

Karl O'Neill

06-27-2009, 10:26 AM

Yeah the art on Red Robin was only okay but the art from TEC is stunning.

pariah-1972

06-27-2009, 12:01 PM

Great Googily moogily !
I love J.H Williams i feel like i'm in some weird art deco underground goth movie.

The writing was good but nothing groundbreaking

Melfice

06-27-2009, 01:36 PM

Anybody else notice the darkside poster in her living room?

Yeah I did see Darkseid's Witch poster on the wall haha I thought it was very cool

pariah-1972

06-27-2009, 02:15 PM

Oh why is she living with her dad and he's like an ex military dude? i thought she was a socialite?
The Question back up kind of bored me.

RonnieThunderbolts

06-27-2009, 03:16 PM

Oh why is she living with her dad and he's like an ex military dude? i thought she was a socialite?

Her dad talks about inviting Kate to join him and her step mother, so I don't think he lives at her place, he is just her backup in a support/Alfred type role.

Nate Palm

06-27-2009, 05:51 PM

Rucka said they'll reveal more of the characters backstory later on.

Good deal. Saw the Special Forces Airborne tat and the West Point shirt and I wasn't sure if I had missed her back story from 52 or something else I didn't read.

Phil

06-27-2009, 06:02 PM

Good deal. Saw the Special Forces Airborne tat and the West Point shirt and I wasn't sure if I had missed her back story from 52 or something else I didn't read.

52 didn't reveal much about her personal life other than shes super-rich and used to date Renee Montoya. I dont know what other appearences she's made

pariah-1972

06-27-2009, 07:03 PM

Her dad talks about inviting Kate to join him and her step mother, so I don't think he lives at her place, he is just her backup in a support/Alfred type role.But she's supposed to be a socialite and her father didn't seem all that rich.

RonnieThunderbolts

06-27-2009, 10:16 PM

But she's supposed to be a socialite and her father didn't seem all that rich.

Really? I didn't see anything whatsoever to indicate he was wealthy or not in the issue, but that was just me.

pariah-1972

06-27-2009, 10:19 PM

Really? I didn't see anything whatsoever to indicate he was wealthy or not in the issue, but that was just me.He and his place looked middle class.

RonnieThunderbolts

06-27-2009, 10:27 PM

He and his place looked middle class.

I don't think that was his place. The framed posters looked like album artwork, and Kate was asleep there, leading me to think it is her place, and as I said, that she doesn't live with him because he invited her over later with his wife and Bette. As for "looked middle class," I completely and totally disagree. I've taught in private schools to the children of millionaires, from businessmen to professional athletes, and there was no single "look" or uniform. Really, I just disagree that her dad or her place seemed "wrong" for someone wealthy.

nepenthes

06-27-2009, 10:30 PM

He and his place looked middle class.

Did you not see the fitted out bunker hidden in the apartment? Middle class, right

otherwise I'd be interested to know what a wealthy socialite is supposed to look like drinking their coffee in the morning

Retro315

06-28-2009, 12:03 AM

Did you not see the fitted out bunker hidden in the apartment? Middle class, right

otherwise I'd be interested to know what a wealthy socialite is supposed to look like drinking their coffee in the morning

They do it on a pile of money, apparently.

Plus, they're wealthy ... nobody ever said they were Wayne wealthy. You can be as well-to-do as they come and you won't ever match Wayne "family legacy/heirloom" wealth.

pariah-1972

06-28-2009, 01:14 AM

I figured she had as much money as Wayne of close to it and i was sort of surprised that her father was in the military.

Lemurion

06-28-2009, 09:34 AM

She has an entire floor - complete with "bunker" in the middle and a connection to the entrance on the ground floor. Her family probably owns the building.

As to her father being retired military, some wealthy families have a tradition of service where joining the military is not only accepted but expected. She could easily be from one of those families.

My own guess is that she's from one of those families and had always wanted to serve. She went to West Point and had to leave because of her sexual orientation. I think that's part of the sacrifice she made that Greg Rucka alluded to. There's probably more to it, but I think that covers the gist.

I'm looking forward to finding out - and the fact they have 18 issues already planned out is a good sign that they intend to back her for the long haul. (Whoever's in the Cowl can have Batman and Batman & Robin to keep two titles.)

Psavell2

06-28-2009, 10:23 AM

As to her father being retired military, some wealthy families have a tradition of service where joining the military is not only accepted but expected.

In support of this observation, let's not forget that Thomas Wayne became a doctor to serve the public despite inheriting immense wealth. As for appearances, Meyer Lansky was a millionaire yet lived in a modest home, presumably without a bat-bunker.

Karl O'Neill

06-28-2009, 10:27 AM

Cool.

Greg rucka said on comicbloc that JH WILLIAMS will be staying on for 12 issues. and that he has 18 issues plotted out already. and has as far as 7 issues wrote fully as of now.

sweetness.

Gitaroo_Dude

06-28-2009, 10:33 AM

Cool.

Greg rucka said on comicbloc that JH WILLIAMS will be staying on for 12 issues. and that he has 18 issues plotted out already. and has as far as 7 issues wrote fully as of now.

sweetness.

I'm crushed that we'll be forced to go with a fill in. Oh, I'm sure he'll be really good, maybe even A-list, but anyone that comes after Williams will be look like Greg Land in comparison.

Karl O'Neill

06-28-2009, 10:35 AM

Well not unless it's someone awesome like gary frank or tony daniel or frank quietly.

Name Already Taken

06-28-2009, 12:52 PM

On second read through, I am not digging this story or the art. The back up feature with Montoya seems more interesting right now.

Karl O'Neill

06-28-2009, 01:07 PM

On second read through, I am not digging this story or the art. The back up feature with Montoya seems more interesting right now.

Really? Art or story?

That's extreme i must say. But I respect your opinion.

Name Already Taken

06-28-2009, 01:31 PM

Really? Art or story?

That's extreme i must say. But I respect your opinion.

Mainly the art for now. Overall story is a little on the meh side for my taste. I liked some of the panels Williams did for the action shots beginning and towards the end, but the dialogue and filler between with Kate and her stepdad just isn't holding my interest and seems pretty two dimensional and a little bland. Rucka had me sold on Gotham Central and 52, as well as his current work over in Action, but right now Kate Kane doesn't strike me as very exciting. While keenly interested when she appeared in 52, my interest for the character and her story has long since waned. I'll give the series a few more tries, but for an opening issue I wasn't exactly wanting more when finished.

Will.S

06-28-2009, 05:48 PM

Mainly the art for now. Overall story is a little on the meh side for my taste. I liked some of the panels Williams did for the action shots beginning and towards the end, but the dialogue and filler between with Kate and her stepdad just isn't holding my interest and seems pretty two dimensional and a little bland. Rucka had me sold on Gotham Central and 52, as well as his current work over in Action, but right now Kate Kane doesn't strike me as very exciting. While keenly interested when she appeared in 52, my interest for the character and her story has long since waned. I'll give the series a few more tries, but for an opening issue I wasn't exactly wanting more when finished.
That was more or less how I felt as well.

Hopefully as the book goes along Greg can make her more interesting for me.

Captain Jim

06-28-2009, 06:32 PM

Greg rucka said on comicbloc that JH WILLIAMS will be staying on for 12 issues. and that he has 18 issues plotted out already. and has as far as 7 issues wrote fully as of now.

Hmm, so maybe Williams will stay on the feature as long as it runs in Detective. After that, Bruce will likely be back, and Batwoman will get her own book, with a new artist.

Captain Jim

06-28-2009, 06:34 PM

Anyone want to give us a complete index of Kate Kane/ Batwoman appearances to date? Shouldn't be too hard at this stage of the game.

Name Already Taken

06-28-2009, 07:06 PM

That was more or less how I felt as well.

Hopefully as the book goes along Greg can make her more interesting for me.

I'm a fan of what he has done elsewhere, but this is falling a little flat on first impression.

Shigun

06-28-2009, 07:16 PM

Anyone want to give us a complete index of Kate Kane/ Batwoman appearances to date? Shouldn't be too hard at this stage of the game.Not gonna guarantee this is 100% accurate...

52 (2006) #7 - 'Going Down'
52 (2006) #9 - 'Dream of America'
52 (2006) #11 - 'Batwoman Begins!'
52 (2006) #28 - 'Beyond The Black Stump'
52 (2006) #30 - 'Dark Knight Down'
52 (2006) #33 - 'The Most Wonderful Time of The Year'
52 (2006) #34 - 'Suicidal Tendencies'
52 (2006) #36 - 'How To Win A War In Space'
52 (2006) #48 - 'Asked & Answered'
52 (2006) #52 - 'A Year in the Life'

Ambush Bug: Year None (2008) #4 - 'The Guignol Age of Comics'

Batman: Battle for the Cowl (2009) #1 - 'A Hostile Takeover'

Countdown (2007) #38 - 'All Hell!'
Countdown (2007) #39 - 'Do Not Pass Go'
Countdown (2007) #41 - 'Another Fine Mess'

Crime Bible: The Five Lessons of Blood (2007) #3 - 'The Lesson of Greed'

DCU: Infinite Holiday Special (2007) #1

Detective Comics (1937) #854 - 'Elegy, Part One: Agitato'

Final Crisis (2008) #3 - 'Know Evil'
Final Crisis (2008) #4 - 'Darkseid Says'
Final Crisis (2008) #5 - 'Into Oblivion'
Final Crisis (2008) #6 - 'How To Murder The Earth'
Final Crisis (2008) #7 - 'New Heaven, New Earth'

Final Crisis: Revelations (2008) #2
Final Crisis: Revelations (2008) #3
Final Crisis: Revelations (2008) #4
Final Crisis: Revelations (2008) #5

My Source: http://www.comicbookdb.com/character.php?ID=6161

Psavell2

06-28-2009, 08:16 PM

Will.S

06-28-2009, 08:47 PM

Also, I'd like to ask, is it worth the time and money to track down any of these back issues? What I mean is will any of these give me a better understanding of the background or is Detective #854 as good a starting point as any?
I think you can pretty much read Detective without any problems but if I were to recommend two things regarding Kate Kane that are worth reading are 52 and Crime Bible which she stars in for an issue which follows up the 52 stuff which was continued in Detective #854 as well.

If you don't want to buy entire collections than the single issues of 52 and Crime Bible that Shigun posted should be good enough to bring you up to speed.

Retro315

06-28-2009, 09:10 PM

I think you can pretty much read Detective without any problems but if I were to recommend two things regarding Kate Kane that are worth reading are 52 and Crime Bible which she stars in for an issue which follows up the 52 stuff which was continued in Detective #854 as well.

If you don't want to buy entire collections than the single issues of 52 and Crime Bible that Shigun posted should be good enough to bring you up to speed.

Agreed.

Final Crisis: Revelations was quite good, but it's more of a denouement for Gotham Central and Batwoman's role was just as "the Darkseid slave/this got personal" friend-turned-enemy for The Question. Unless of course, you're as interested in The Question as you are Batwoman (or like in my case, slightly more invested).

You should only really need 52 and Crime Bible. But apart from seeing the Religion of Crime/Intergang attempt to sacrifice Batwoman in the name of Darkseid and Evil, you really don't get any actual solid information you don't already probably know.

paulski

06-28-2009, 09:19 PM

On second read through, I am not digging this story or the art... Mainly the art for now.

Wow. I mean, you are of course completely entitled to your opinion, but I think you're basically the lone dissenting voice here. Like many (many, many...) others, I was completely blown away by the artwork on this issue, and I thought I'd seen it all in my 34 years of comic reading. JHW has taken it to another level with this book. :eek:

Gitaroo_Dude

06-28-2009, 10:13 PM

Well not unless it's someone awesome like gary frank or tony daniel or frank quietly.

I'm 100% confident that it is impossible for Quitely to do TEC after six issues of B&R considering the lead time he got on those issues. Maybe he could do 1 issue, but even that would surprise me.

And Frank and Daniel for me fall under the category of big name artists that can't compare to Williams. After this issue, as far as I'm concerned, there are Quitely and Williams, and then all other A-list artists.

Name Already Taken

06-28-2009, 10:32 PM

Wow. I mean, you are of course completely entitled to your opinion, but I think you're basically the lone dissenting voice here. Like many (many, many...) others, I was completely blown away by the artwork on this issue, and I thought I'd seen it all in my 34 years of comic reading. JHW has taken it to another level with this book. :eek:

That's just me. I wasn't trying to rile anyone up. Originally I was really looking forward to this months back, but it didn't push the right buttons. I'll give it a few more issues, but so far it isn't floating my boat.

That is all.

paulski

06-29-2009, 03:09 AM

That's just me. I wasn't trying to rile anyone up.

No, man, it's all cool. It's just different strokes for different folks. I can appreciate that more than most. :smile:

I was just pointing out that, from what I've seen so far... you're basically it. :wink:

pariah-1972

06-29-2009, 08:13 AM

I'll admit that i was a bit shocked when Kathy took off her wig and looked shockingly non glamerous.

AJM

06-29-2009, 09:04 AM

I'm 100% confident that it is impossible for Quitely to do TEC after six issues of B&R considering the lead time he got on those issues. Maybe he could do 1 issue, but even that would surprise me.

Where on earth are you getting your info? Do you know something that we don't? Because Batman And Robin has been on time so far, and after #3 his next one is #10 and isn't due until February 2010 - so how can you possibly know anything of his schedule?

Gitaroo_Dude

06-29-2009, 11:11 AM

Where on earth are you getting your info? Do you know something that we don't? Because Batman And Robin has been on time so far, and after #3 his next one is #10 and isn't due until February 2010 - so how can you possibly know anything of his schedule?

Huh?

It's common knowledge that Quitely is one of the slowest artists in the business.

It took what, 3 YEARS for All-Star Superman to conclude. Basically 4 issues a year with no other comics.

New X-Men required several artists to be brought in because Quitely couldn't maintain a schedule.

There's just no way at all that Quitely can do some issues of TEC after doing the last 3 issues of B&R, unless it was one of the last issues Rucka is doing of the 17.

Kylun123

06-29-2009, 11:24 AM

What I mean is will any of these give me a better understanding of the background or is Detective #854 as good a starting point as any?

I've had no prior experience. I heard in a Greg Rucka interview that it opens with a 4-issue arc, and then the following 3 issue arc will delve into her origins.

AJM

06-29-2009, 11:46 AM

Huh?

It's common knowledge that Quitely is one of the slowest artists in the business.

It took what, 3 YEARS for All-Star Superman to conclude. Basically 4 issues a year with no other comics.

New X-Men required several artists to be brought in because Quitely couldn't maintain a schedule.

There's just no way at all that Quitely can do some issues of TEC after doing the last 3 issues of B&R, unless it was one of the last issues Rucka is doing of the 17.

My point was that you have absolutely no idea where his schedule is at - for all we know, he's started the last arc already... maybe he's even finished it, this has been planned for a long time. Don't judge him on the past when you nothing of the present.

Cully Hamner

06-30-2009, 12:44 PM

The addition feature “The Question” was a big waste; get rid of it and let me save a dollar.

I've seen this criticism in a few places, and I feel compelled to comment on it. Look, if there were no co-features in any of the books, they would cost... exactly the same.

See, the price increase is due to a number of factors, and was going to happen no matter what. Dan DiDio, wanting to soften the blow, had DC figure out a way to include extra material-- to give people more for that extra money that they're being asked to spend. But understand: If they stop doing co-features next month, you're still paying $3.99.

Personally, I think it's a great idea-- just as a fan, and whether I'm working on one of them or not.

Anyway, thanks for checking out the book, everyone!

Lemurion

06-30-2009, 01:14 PM

I think the co-features are a great idea: but I can see how the price increase was necessary (I don't like it but I can see it).

If most of Marvel runs $3.99 DC pretty much has to follow suit, because it's bad business for a retailer to give a slot to a $2.99 book that could otherwise go to a $3.99 book with the same or better sales. That's not even worrying about increases in production costs.

lead sharp

06-30-2009, 01:19 PM

Just read this, exceptional!

Finally another DC book on my list.

Karl O'Neill

06-30-2009, 01:29 PM

Just read this, exceptional!

Finally another DC book on my list.

Read it again. and again :biggrin: I have read it 4 times now. The art is just so wowdy wow wow wow.

lead sharp

06-30-2009, 02:21 PM

Read it again. and again :biggrin: I have read it 4 times now. The art is just so wowdy wow wow wow.

You know what my ONLY complaint is?

I'm so sick of the Kia advert its untrue.

Karl O'Neill

06-30-2009, 02:36 PM

ye that's the only think i hate about single issue format is the bloody ads!

Captain Jim

06-30-2009, 06:51 PM

I've seen this criticism in a few places, and I feel compelled to comment on it. Look, if there were no co-features in any of the books, they would cost... exactly the same.

See, the price increase is due to a number of factors, and was going to happen no matter what. Dan DiDio, wanting to soften the blow, had DC figure out a way to include extra material-- to give people more for that extra money that they're being asked to spend. But understand: If they stop doing co-features next month, you're still paying $3.99.

Personally, I think it's a great idea-- just as a fan, and whether I'm working on one of them or not.

Cully, no offense, but it would be easier to buy that argument if all the books without co-features weren't still selling for $2.99. However, I can believe that, over a period of months, and due to a number of factors, the price on all DC books will have to be raised and that this is a way to soften the blow (and I like the co-features too). But it's the "next month" part that I have difficulty with, given all the books still selling for $2.99.

Thanks for stopping by. :smile:

Not gonna guarantee this is 100% accurate...

52 (2006) #7 - 'Going Down'
52 (2006) #9 - 'Dream of America'
52 (2006) #11 - 'Batwoman Begins!'
52 (2006) #28 - 'Beyond The Black Stump'
52 (2006) #30 - 'Dark Knight Down'
52 (2006) #33 - 'The Most Wonderful Time of The Year'
52 (2006) #34 - 'Suicidal Tendencies'
52 (2006) #36 - 'How To Win A War In Space'
52 (2006) #48 - 'Asked & Answered'
52 (2006) #52 - 'A Year in the Life'

Ambush Bug: Year None (2008) #4 - 'The Guignol Age of Comics'

Batman: Battle for the Cowl (2009) #1 - 'A Hostile Takeover'

Countdown (2007) #38 - 'All Hell!'
Countdown (2007) #39 - 'Do Not Pass Go'
Countdown (2007) #41 - 'Another Fine Mess'

Crime Bible: The Five Lessons of Blood (2007) #3 - 'The Lesson of Greed'

DCU: Infinite Holiday Special (2007) #1

Detective Comics (1937) #854 - 'Elegy, Part One: Agitato'

Final Crisis (2008) #3 - 'Know Evil'
Final Crisis (2008) #4 - 'Darkseid Says'
Final Crisis (2008) #5 - 'Into Oblivion'
Final Crisis (2008) #6 - 'How To Murder The Earth'
Final Crisis (2008) #7 - 'New Heaven, New Earth'

Final Crisis: Revelations (2008) #2
Final Crisis: Revelations (2008) #3
Final Crisis: Revelations (2008) #4
Final Crisis: Revelations (2008) #5

My Source: http://www.comicbookdb.com/character.php?ID=6161

Thanks! But I was really looking for a chronological list, not an alphabetical one. Is there anyone who can do that?

Captain Jim

06-30-2009, 06:59 PM

Cully Hamner

06-30-2009, 08:35 PM

Cully, no offense...

None taken, of course.

...but it would be easier to buy that argument if all the books without co-features weren't still selling for $2.99. However, I can believe that, over a period of months, and due to a number of factors, the price on all DC books will have to be raised and that this is a way to soften the blow (and I like the co-features too).

Which is pretty much what I'm saying. I never said all of the prices would or wouldn't be raised at once. I'm not a DC staffer, and I can't speak to anything other than the rationale I was given by DC when I was told of these plans. I have no reason to disbelieve them.

But it's the "next month" part that I have difficulty with, given all the books still selling for $2.99.

And I think you're taking what I meant as a hypothetical too literally. My point still stands: The books that currently have co-features would cost would cost $3.99 with or without them. Buy them or don't buy them, but people shouldn't blame the price hike on the existence of the co-features.

Of course, I hope you at least buy Detective Comics. :biggrin:

Bat_Fan2232

06-30-2009, 08:47 PM

Okay, I read this a couple nights ago, and I'm considerably less excited than most of you. The art is very nice, of course, though the coloring doesn't do a lot for me. And despite the quality of the art, I really don't think it's unparalleled, as some of you seem to. Greg Rucka is one of my favorite Batman writers, but so far, this story doesn't impress me. And I am still not interested in the character. But I have promised myself I'd buy at least the first arc, so we'll see what the next three issues bring.

i feel the exact same way

paulski

06-30-2009, 08:53 PM

Thanks for stopping by, Cully. :smile:

Nice work on the Question so far, too. Shame we only get 8 or 10 pages at a time, though.

Cully Hamner

06-30-2009, 09:02 PM

Shame we only get 8 or 10 pages at a time, though.

Yeah... but you never know.:wink:

Global Honored

06-30-2009, 09:11 PM

Cully, the art looked fantastic. If the book continues to be this good, I have no problem paying 4 bucks an issue. C'mon...Rucka, Williams and Hammer... 3.99 is a steal! ...Wait....don't tell the higher ups I said that.

Name Already Taken

06-30-2009, 09:22 PM

Chiroptera

06-30-2009, 10:31 PM

I've been on vacation so I've only just caught up on this months books, and man... I loved this!
Really absolutely loved it. It's got a very new feeling, and I feel liek Rucka did do an excellent job of showing that Kane's different from the other Bats in Gotham's Belfry. She doesn't operate on the same level, she's got the sort've brazzy attitude of huntress, the self-confidence of the Bat, and just enough tongue-n-cheek sass to seem a little like Nightwing as well.

She's not distinctly like any of the other Bat-family, she's definitely got her own flavor to her. I also have to say, this is the first new Gotham villain they've brought in recently that I've actually liked. Belle, or whatever she's actually called, has that sort've crazy, wild, outlandish psychosis I'd expect from a true villain of Gotham and I loved it. I can't wait to see where this is going.

FeminineMystique

07-01-2009, 11:05 AM

Great Googily moogily !
I love J.H Williams i feel like i'm in some weird art deco underground goth movie.

The writing was good but nothing groundbreaking

He did incredible work on this issue. Is he the artist for the entire series or will it be a rotating art team? I love the detail Williams put into everything, all the nice little touches.

And I love that we're learning more about Kate. It's taken a long time for it to happen but the characters being fleshed out at last. And I like what we've seen so far:smile:

lead sharp

07-01-2009, 11:25 AM

I think some people were expecting a more immediate hit in the face story wise and instead we got a slow burn character set up, which is just as good but I think it caught folks off guard.

chrisgiff

07-01-2009, 11:52 AM

personally, i thought this book was incredible, the best of the reborn books so far.

the art was so beautiful that it made everything else i bought that week look like it wasn't worth the paper it was printed on. i don't see how anyone is complaining about the coloring. i think that the coloring was one of the best parts of the whole book and that we all wouldn't be sweating on Williams so much if the colors weren't so brilliant.

AJM

07-01-2009, 01:22 PM

Yeah... but you never know.:wink:

I like that little wink...

I really enjoyed the Question, wasn't really sure what to expect. I missed out on all that 52 stuff and hadn't really read about the character since the old O'Neill / Cowan days, although obviously i knew that Montoya had taken the role, and she seems great in it. The art's great too, really suits the mood and it's a nice contrast to the Williams stuff too. Well done.

pariah-1972

07-01-2009, 02:19 PM

I think some people were expecting a more immediate hit in the face story wise and instead we got a slow burn character set up, which is just as good but I think it caught folks off guard.It def caught me off guard i was expecting a big splash especially looking at the preview pages.

That's ok tho i can be patient.

scandalsavage

07-01-2009, 07:11 PM

digitalways

07-01-2009, 08:45 PM

This is weeks after the fact, but this book has made such a lasting impression on me that I can't keep thinking about it! I was truly excited after I finished it, and that hasn't happened in a really long time for me. The art was just beyond words and the overall style was something very unique and refreshing. I want more and I want it like, last week.

Captain Jim

07-01-2009, 09:34 PM

Is he the artist for the entire series or will it be a rotating art team?

I believe he's been confirmed on this feature as long as it remains in Detective (presumably Batman will be back in a year or so). Nothing has been said about a rotating art team on this.

nepenthes

07-01-2009, 09:48 PM

I was out of town when this came out and I was so excited I bought it and thought it was great.

Yesterday I got the copy from my pull list and sat down and read it again. I spent alot of time on the artwork. I was delighted to find things I hadn't noticed before. The way the panels look like a Bat etc.

I do have a question. I know that this first issue has existed for awhile but did anyone get the sense that some panels were done earlier than others? In the first panels with her father Kate's skin was noticably less white than in the panels with Anna. Any thoughts?

It's a deliberate effect, Williams is good at juggling different styles sometimes in the same issue even. In the Batman Club of Heroes arc he drew each member in a different style reminiscient of their classic looks or artists. In Batwoman it's the scenes in her civilian life that are clean and bright but anything involving her vigilante side becomes shadowy with more of a painted look. look at when they step into the bunker in the middle if her apartnment, the look switches.

Phil

07-02-2009, 12:02 PM

It's a deliberate effect, Williams is good at juggling different styles sometimes in the same issue even. In the Batman Club of Heroes arc he drew each member in a different style reminiscient of their classic looks or artists. In Batwoman it's the scenes in her civilian life that are clean and bright but anything involving her vigilante side becomes shadowy with more of a painted look. look at when they step into the bunker in the middle if her apartnment, the look switches.
exactly! a lot of people seem to be hung up on the different art, especially the pale look of Batwoman's skin. I understand the need for continuity but it's not that hard to see the symbolism in the art work, the dreamy style of Batwomans world vs the more grounded look of Kate's.It was a fantastic use of creative license. I think it was executed very well, especially for a first issue (of this run).
Also, as far as the story goes, the best way to figure out what's going on is probably to read the next issue! I plan to :smile:

Karl O'Neill

07-02-2009, 01:09 PM

I hope Batman stays away for more than one year. I am enjoying this batman reborn launch too much.

Armadillo

07-02-2009, 01:16 PM

I hope Batman stays away for more than one year. I am enjoying this batman reborn launch too much.

But he's ****ing Bruce Wayne! He should return soon.
I bet he'll be back maximum in time for Batman 3.

Karl O'Neill

07-02-2009, 01:37 PM

But he's ****ing Bruce Wayne! He should return soon.
I bet he'll be back maximum in time for Batman 3.

Heh. I love him too.

But at least 2 years would be nice for us dick grayson fans to see dick enjoy his time as batman for a while.

the goddamn batman

07-02-2009, 02:14 PM

None taken, of course.

Which is pretty much what I'm saying. I never said all of the prices would or wouldn't be raised at once. I'm not a DC staffer, and I can't speak to anything other than the rationale I was given by DC when I was told of these plans. I have no reason to disbelieve them.

And I think you're taking what I meant as a hypothetical too literally. My point still stands: The books that currently have co-features would cost would cost $3.99 with or without them. Buy them or don't buy them, but people shouldn't blame the price hike on the existence of the co-features.

Of course, I hope you at least buy Detective Comics. :biggrin:

I thought, and maybe I'm wrong, that the reason the books cost more was BECAUSE of the co-features, and not in spite of them.

That's what I remember reading from Didio... though, I'm not above the idea that Didio lied about something to soften the blow.

I mean, more page counts means it's a higher print cost as well as paying the additional creative teams... and meanwhile, Batman and Robin is only $2.99.

So, like... I don't get it. I think it's a bunch of crap. DC needs to do whatever Marvel does, and I'm still not sure why Marvel had to raise their prices. Seems to me it'd be better to not raise the prices over at DC when Marvel has...

But whatever, I can deal with it for Williams art.

Kylun123

07-02-2009, 02:22 PM

I thought, and maybe I'm wrong, that the reason the books cost more was BECAUSE of the co-features, and not in spite of them.

No, I believe that the line both DC and Marvel are selling the readers is that the overall cost of printing has gone up and they are testing the market to see what price readers are willing to pay.

DC has attempted to save some face by increasing the page count for taht extra buck and including an additional story.

Whereas Marvel has simply put the extra $1 on books that they know will continue to sell no matter what (Spider-Man, Avengers, Uncanny X-Men).

Cully Hamner

07-02-2009, 02:43 PM

I thought, and maybe I'm wrong, that the reason the books cost more was BECAUSE of the co-features, and not in spite of them.

That's what I remember reading from Didio...

You might be remembering this quote (http://newsarama.com/comics/030912-Co-Features.html) (although I think you're parsing a meaning different from what was intended): “'We’re holding the $2.99 line as hard as we can, and we will never move a book over to $3.99 unless we feel that there is value added to justify that price change,' DiDio said."

...Which is right line with what I was told when I was offered this gig: That they've held off price increases as long as they could, but they couldn't any longer. The thinking was, as I was told, that if they had to raise prices on some titles, they'd find a way to afford to add extra content, and still turn a profit.

...though, I'm not above the idea that Didio lied about something to soften the blow.

And you base this on... what, exactly? And honestly, would you mind using your real name if you're going to call someone you don't know a liar?

I mean, more page counts means it's a higher print cost as well as paying the additional creative teams... and meanwhile, Batman and Robin is only $2.99.

So, like... I don't get it. I think it's a bunch of crap. DC needs to do whatever Marvel does, and I'm still not sure why Marvel had to raise their prices. Seems to me it'd be better to not raise the prices over at DC when Marvel has...

And again, you base this on what? Years of experience in publishing? Intimate knowledge of the across-the-board costs of publishing hundreds of titles a year? Back yourself up, please.

capjr

07-02-2009, 03:34 PM

I picked this issue up yesterday along with Batman and Robin #2 and I have to admit that the art is Superb!

Enjoyed both stories and though this is my initial introduction to both the New Question and the red Batwoman I must say I find both of them rather intriguing....

peace

the goddamn batman

07-02-2009, 03:34 PM

You might be remembering this quote (http://newsarama.com/comics/030912-Co-Features.html) (although I think you're parsing a meaning different from what was intended): “'We’re holding the $2.99 line as hard as we can, and we will never move a book over to $3.99 unless we feel that there is value added to justify that price change,' DiDio said."

...Which is right line with what I was told when I was offered this gig: That they've held off price increases as long as they could, but they couldn't any longer. The thinking was, as I was told, that if they had to raise prices on some titles, they'd find a way to afford to add extra content, and still turn a profit.

Yeah, I guess that is the one I'm remembering. Like I said, I could have been wrong in what I was remembering. Apparently I was... well, sorta, anyway.

And you base this on... what, exactly? And honestly, would you mind using your real name if you're going to call someone you don't know a liar?

I didn't call anyone a liar. I said that it was a possibility. And no, I don't care to use my real name, obviously, since I don't.

And again, you base this on what? Years of experience in publishing? Intimate knowledge of the across-the-board costs of publishing hundreds of titles a year? Back yourself up, please.

You assume that I have no experience in publishing...

I think we can all safely assume, regardless of years of experience in publishing comics that an increase in page count will increase the cost of publishing and that paying another creative team to do the co-feature will also increase the cost of the book. I mean, are you guys doing the co-feature for free?

so, I guess my math is this:

Batman and Robin 1 creative team standard page count = $2.99

Detective Comics 2 creative teams (or 1.5 as you're not doing a full length story) with a higher page count = $3.99

Say what ever they will about the increase happening anyway, but it seems to only be happening where there is an increase in expense to the publisher. Am I wrong?

And please, don't take this as an attack on you or your publisher, because it's not. It's a simple and fair inquisition about the increase of prices.

Kylun123

07-02-2009, 03:48 PM

Say what ever they will about the increase happening anyway, but it seems to only be happening where there is an increase in expense to the publisher. Am I wrong?

Yes . . . you are clearly wrong . . . and I don't say this to be confrontational but if you take a look at Marvel's books that went 3.99 you would notice that it isn't matter of publishing this particular book but rather it is a way to simply raise profit levels across the board.

Marvel's approach was to add the extra $1 to all (nearly all) mini-series and flagship titles (Avengers, Amazing Spider-Man, Uncanny X-Men) b/c they knew that the demand for these titles is basically inelastic and will not change. So adding the extra buck Marvel will simply bring in more money.

The reason this is necessary, as they claim, is b/c overall across the industry publishing costs have increased.

Similarly, DC for various reasons needs to raise the cost of the book that extra $1 as well.

DC's approach was that the flagship titles which will sell well anyway should stay at 2.99, and they can increase the sales of some lesser books, plus give their loyal readers additional content for that extra dollar.

Continuing your assumption that DC's price hike is related to the additional content appears to be silly considering the fact that within the industry the prices are being hiked with no additional content.

It's really a strange bind for DC to be in, would you honestly be happier if they added the $1 but didn't include any extra pages??

the goddamn batman

07-02-2009, 03:56 PM

Yes . . . you are clearly wrong . . .

Really? What non co-feature books are DC selling at $3.99?

And I'm not talking about Marvel... like, at all.

Continuing your assumption that DC's price hike is related to the additional content appears to be silly considering the fact that within the industry the prices are being hiked with no additional content.

I'm simply asking how I'm supposed to believe that the extra expense in creating and printing the co-features doesn't translate into additional cost. I think that's a fair question and a reasonable assumption.

It's really a strange bind for DC to be in, would you honestly be happier if they added the $1 but didn't include any extra pages??

Well, honestly? I'm not buying Tec for the Co-feature. I don't have any real interest in it, so I'm paying the same price for Williams art with or without it. To me, it's the same either way.

Kylun123

07-02-2009, 04:07 PM

Really? What non co-feature books are DC selling at $3.99?

And I'm not talking about Marvel... like, at all.

Dude, if you want the answers then listen, if you simply want to whine & moan about the extra dollar then we can let you do that and we'll just let it go.

DC had a choice. Charge 3.99 for some books and leave it be . . . or charge 3.99 for some books but at least give the readers some extra content.

It's as simple as that. If you want to believe it's some big lying conspiracy you can continue to do so . . . otherwise take it for what it is.

If you don't buy Marvel that's fine . . . but you can't really discuss this issue in a vacuum, and if you choose to ignore how other publishers are dealing with the rising costs, then again I will simply have to assume your query isn't very serious at all . . .

I'm simply asking how I'm supposed to believe that the extra expense in creating and printing the co-features doesn't translate into additional cost. I think that's a fair question and a reasonable assumption.

The costs of printing & publishing have risen in recent years. Whether that is because of the new technologies, if it's related to the economy, I really don't know the exact detail of the expenses. But it is affecting the industry as a whole.

This is why all comic companies have been forced to raise costs.

The notion that printing 6-8 extra pages out of the printer costs exactly one additional dollar is silly.

Think about it . . . why would DC go around adding pages to their books and then adding a dollar to it, if the sole purpose of the dollar was to cover the expense of the additional pages??

That isn't common sense.

However, when you have such a large business the overhead expenses are spread throughout the different titles. DC is finding a way to limit the overall rise in cost of producing all of their titles by spreading it to only some of their titles.

I suppose a different option could be upping every title across the board an additional 25 cents . . . ??

Well, honestly? I'm not buying Tec for the Co-feature. I don't have any real interest in it, so I'm paying the same price for Williams art with or without it. To me, it's the same either way.

Right . . . but . . . you would be paying the same 3.99 with or without the co-feature . . .

the goddamn batman

07-02-2009, 04:22 PM

Dude, if you want the answers then listen, if you simply want to whine & moan about the extra dollar then we can let you do that and we'll just let it go.

I'm not really whining or moaning, though...

It's as simple as that. If you want to believe it's some big lying conspiracy you can continue to do so . . . otherwise take it for what it is.

And I didn't say it was some big lying conspiracy either...

If you don't buy Marvel that's fine . . . but you can't really discuss this issue in a vacuum, and if you choose to ignore how other publishers are dealing with the rising costs, then again I will simply have to assume your query isn't very serious at all . . .

I can't discuss how DC comics is dealing with it when they've stated that they're dealing with it differently and in a very specific way?

This is why all comic companies have been forced to raise costs.

Happens all the time. I remember when comics were a dollar or even less in some cases.

The notion that printing 6-8 extra pages out of the printer costs exactly one additional dollar is silly.

Yeah, that's why I factored in the cost of paying the creative team to draw a third of a regular comic... and then print said third of a comic, which, you know, a dollar is a third of the cost of a regular comic...

Right . . . but . . . you would be paying the same 3.99 with or without the co-feature . . .

Right... and the co-feature still doesn't mean anything to me... I'm buying it for Williams art. I don't even care about the story. Every word in every balloon could be 'poop' and I'd still buy it. Art. Everything else is secondary on this book for me. So, yeah, it doesn't matter what they've added or why, unless it's more of Williams art.

But whatever, really. This is exactly why I stopped posting here. I don't want to get into a round and round of nothing over nothing...

Kylun123

07-02-2009, 04:29 PM

Yeah, that's why I factored in the cost of paying the creative team to draw a third of a regular comic... and then print said third of a comic, which, you know, a dollar is a third of the cost of a regular comic...

Sure. So why would DC add a dollar of costs to the book, then add a dollar to cover it?

Pixie_Solanas

07-02-2009, 04:32 PM

I thought, and maybe I'm wrong, that the reason the books cost more was BECAUSE of the co-features, and not in spite of them.

The 3.99 price point has been a long time coming. At least DC is giving something to "soften" the blow, aside from Marvel who's just tacking on the higher price on their more in-demand titles, extra material or not.

So really, DC was going to have to have 3.99 books at some point in the very near future, whether or not subfeatures were a part of it or not.

Kylun123

07-02-2009, 04:34 PM

And I didn't say it was some big lying conspiracy either...

Maybe not explicitly but you certainly implied that the reason for the extra dollar wasn't for the reasons expressed but rather for some theory that you simply made up . . .

I'm not above the idea that Didio lied about something to soften the blow.

I didn't call anyone a liar. I said that it was a possibility.

Is it a possibility that Didio is lying and the real reason for the price hike is to justify the co-feature . . . it could be, but alone that doesn't seem to make too much sense if the extra dollar is simply covering the cost.

There is one explanation that was expressed earlier that actually might fit within your theory, by the way.
There's a notion that Comic Shops would rather fill their shelves with 3.99 books over 2.99 books and if Marvel has more 3.99 books then they would get more spots on the rack.
Although, I'm not sure that would make sense . . . b/c if DC is adding to the expense of the book then the very same Comic Shop owner would still prefer the cheaper 3.99 book.

the goddamn batman

07-02-2009, 04:58 PM

Maybe not explicitly but you certainly implied that the reason for the extra dollar wasn't for the reasons expressed but rather for some theory that you simply made up . . .

No, see, what happened is I remembered it wrong. As I said, I maybe remembering it wrong, which I was, and at that time, what I remembered was not what was being said now, and I wasn't against the idea that DiDio had said one thing when, in fact, another thing was the case. I'm pretty sure that was the order of things. But then again, my memory for these things isn't what it used to be and I've miss remembered things before. :wink:

Kylun123

07-02-2009, 05:08 PM

For what it's worth you might want to check out http://comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=21873 for Joe Quesada's views on the price increase.

I know it's Marvel but you might find his opinions to be relevant, as I did.

Cully Hamner

07-02-2009, 05:43 PM

the goddamn batman: We can agree to disagree on most of what you said, and I think Kylun123 has effectively answered you about how things work in publishing, so I won't engage you there, either.

But how is this...

...though, I'm not above the idea that Didio lied about something to soften the blow.

...not calling DiDio a liar? It's implicit in that statement that, to you, he might be lying. It's not a fair thing to say, in my opinion.

And please, don't take this as an attack on you or your publisher, because it's not. It's a simple and fair inquisition about the increase of prices.

No, I get that. I'm not trying to get into a fight here, honestly. I just think you're making a number of assumptions that have no basis in reality is all.

Captain Jim

07-02-2009, 06:06 PM

I think we've gotten sufficiently off track from discussing the book in question (which I'm sure Cully would prefer we did), so let's bring this "price" discussion to a close. If anyone feels they simply must continue it, then start a separate thread on the DC forum. Thanks.

the goddamn batman

07-02-2009, 06:15 PM

...not calling DiDio a liar? It's implicit in that statement that, to you, he might be lying. It's not a fair thing to say, in my opinion.

It wasn't outside the realm of possibilities. Especially when I was remembering one thing, which was different than what was being said here, now.

No, I get that. I'm not trying to get into a fight here, honestly. I just think you're making a number of assumptions that have no basis in reality is all.

Yeah, and I get that, I'm really not either... but as Jim has requested, we'll drop the price issue.

I will say that while I have no specific interest in the co-feature, I did enjoy it and your work on it.

Cully Hamner

07-02-2009, 06:16 PM

Alexx1

07-02-2009, 06:31 PM

The main story didn't grab me like I thought or was hoping it would. The art is amazing and JH Williams is on another level of brilliance right now. Suprising I enjoyed the co-feature a whole hellavu lot more than the feature. I don't get any criticsm of the coloring. It looked fine to me.

Per Rucka's interview about Huntress showing up at some point. I can't wait! Wish it were now. Cully great job on the art. It was just too short a story. Hopefully you all can make this much longer. I'm looking forward to seeing how you draw The Huntress, she's so kick ass! And I'm looking forward them addressing the whole Vic Sage thing. Thanks for dropping by the boards.