The shameful gay marriage ban.

[howyadoin]

Maybe this is because most gays can pass for part of the majority group, as opposed to members of most minorities and because at the same time they recognize that having enough money insulates them a bit from some of the effects of discrimination. Or maybe gays are actually smarter than the average person. Mind you, I'm not saying that is the case - I don't present that as even a hypothesis, as I have no evidence supporting it, but I suppose it's possible. In general there is a positive correlation between sexual diversity and intelligence.Could it also be that for a lot of gay couples, there are no child-rearing expenses? And that there's not much real need for one of them to stay at home (as opposed to getting a job)?

[Ian Boothby]

Jeffrey, I was thinking about this statistic, and idly wondering, so you think it's a tad scewed because the educated higher income gays are the ones more likely to actually be out?

I'd agree with this.

[Smoogis]

Well Hell, I'm going to get my act together, force myself to become attracted to the opposite sex, become a republican, and that tantilizing cake will be flooding my way. Where do I sign up??

(I also want some chaps, for future experimentation. Yes.)

[JeffreyWKramer]

Could it also be that for a lot of gay couples, there are no child-rearing expenses? And that there's not much real need for one of them to stay at home (as opposed to getting a job)?

Maybe. But single gays also have median incomes higher than those of single straight folk.

[Rallura]

I was just a wondering. They can't all be smart and savvy in interior decorating, right? Right?

Someone lend Smoogi some chaps.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I was just a wondering. They can't all be smart and savvy in interior decorating, right? Right?

Someone lend Smoogi some chaps.

Smoogie had better wait a couple years on those chaps. No corrupting the youth. ;)

I don't know about the interior decorating thing either. Maybe the biological components of male sexuality also involve the style gene.

[Smoogis]

Smoogie had better wait a couple years on those chaps. No corrupting the youth. ;)



Send by the US mail then. It will come right now time.

*straps on her heels of oppression (TM)*

[howyadoin]

Maybe. But single gays also have median incomes higher than those of single straight folk.Ah, good point. In that case I defer to Rally's theory, then. I'd guess that it's a lot easier to be out in white-collar jobs, for example, then in a gas station job.

[Spike-X]

Well Hell, I'm going to get my act together, force myself to become attracted to the opposite sex, become a republican, and that tantilizing cake will be flooding my way. Where do I sign up??


Right here, miss! Now, here's your copy of the Gay Agenda™. Get into those schools and start converting those kids!

[howyadoin]

Right here, miss! Now, here's your copy of the Gay Agendaª. Get into those schools and start converting those kids!I bet the FBI or the Patriot Act just started a file on you.

[StoneGold]

Ok,I really gotta go. Sorry if I offended the gay community with my remarks. That was not my intent. I'd also like to say that I don't appreciate being bricked for my honesty. Just because I am not concerned about this issue as I am others doesn't make me a bad person. Save your venom for the haters.

Later.
So you don't care about the issue, and yet you feel the need to comment. And then you feel bad when no one else is on your side. Oddly, this is exactly how your thread in the Comm forum about racism in your workplace went.

[Smoogis]

So you don't care about the issue, and yet you feel the need to comment. And then you feel bad when no one else is on your side. Oddly, this is exactly how your thread in the Comm forum about racism in your workplace went.

What thread do you speak! There is no such thread!

*shifty eyed*

[Spike-X]

I bet the FBI or the Patriot Act just started a file on you.
Another one? Damn.

[stealthwise]

Man this thread was entertaining, not to be facetious. :)

[StoneGold]

Man this thread was entertaining, not to be facetious. :)
Eh, let's face it, with the crowd that posts on this board, you knew from the beginning how it was going to go. It was almost inevitable. Especially on a topic like this, where there really are no facts, just emotions.

Well, there are some facts, but they're pretty much all made up. Or at least I haven't seen anything convincing on how gay marriage will destroy the American family. It comes down to you feel gays should be allowed to marry, because of equal rights, or you feel they shouldn't because it's an abomination against God and nature. Or because it's subverting tax laws, but personally that one feels more like rationalization.

[Ian Boothby]

Eh, let's face it, with the crowd that posts on this board, you knew from the beginning how it was going to go. It was almost inevitable. Especially on a topic like this, where there really are no facts, just emotions.

Well, there are some facts, but they're pretty much all made up. Or at least I haven't seen anything convincing on how gay marriage will destroy the American family. It comes down to you feel gays should be allowed to marry, because of equal rights, or you feel they shouldn't because it's an abomination against God and nature. Or because it's subverting tax laws, but personally that one feels more like rationalization.


It is emotion based like most moral choices are. How does civil rights make things better? Well, it's better for the people who get the rights. You can (and I do) argue that it makes society better and everyone benefits from that.

You can't have any facts about what God thinks because he ain't talking. Okay there's the Bible but if you get your facts from that then the argument is over from the start. Homosexuality isn't against nature because there are gay and bisexual animals. Animals are nature. They don't get influenced by the media so being gay is natural. That's a fact.

But you're right, emotion overrides facts in cases like this (as the vote sadly shows).

[iwarrior]

I just read the last few pages of this thread, and I'm shocked by the level of ignorance, rudeness, insensitivity and self-pity that iwarrior has shown. What's the use of arguing with this... I can't think of anything polite to call him.

(edited twice to change the last sentence)

How self-righteous of you. :rolleyes:

[iwarrior]

See if you can grasp this idea: how things are on television is not a reflection of how life is in the real world.

I know that may come as a shock, but it's true.

I'm not basing this on what I see on tv,I'm basing it on the people who watch those programs.

I also should have put in "bobo" not "boho".

[iwarrior]

Yeah, like when they let black people into schools, it made people hate thme more.
Which is why we are in the situation that exsists now, when we tried equal rights and it failed, hence the massive lynchings that happen everyday!


Segregation and not being allowed to marry someone of the same sex are 2 different issues.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Segregation and not being allowed to marry someone of the same sex are 2 different issues.

So are women's rights and racial segregation... but like gay marriage, they both fall under the general classification of civil rights/civil liberties.

Really, continuing to argue this point is quite silly.

[iwarrior]

It wasn't just the gay community. I think you managed to offend pretty much everybody. Nice work.

I didn't offend you. Come on now. You're just using it as an opportunity to dump on me.


It's not because you disagree that you got 'bricked', it's because you were such a huge flaming arsehole about it.

Yeah,right. :rolleyes: This is a battle of who's more "enlightened than thou". I'm in the middle on the issue,so everyone smells blood.


Don't worry about me, I've got plenty of venom to go around.

Then save it for the homophobes. I'm not one of them. Just because I don't think that gay marriage is a massive human rights issue doesn't make me anti-gay.
__________________

[iwarrior]

I've known that ever since he told me that women don't have a sex drive...

I never said that about all women. Just about teenage girls.

[stealthwise]

I never said that about all women. Just about teenage girls.

Ahahahahahahaha... oh man, you crack me up. :)

[howyadoin]

I never said that about all women. Just about teenage girls.Were you serious?

[Samurai]

Then save it for the homophobes. I'm not one of them. Just because I don't think that gay marriage is a massive human rights issue doesn't make me anti-gay.
__________________
Actually, to far too many people, yes it does. I'm for civil unions but not gay marriage, and I've been called a bigot and homophobe many times for that. If you don't buy the party line and drink every last drop of party kool-aid, you are a traitor to many folks...

[JeffreyWKramer]

Were you serious?

The sad thing is, yes, he apparently was.

He was complaining that ALIAS was unrealistic because of the scene in one issue that showed teenage Jessica Jones masturbating, and stated his opinion that teen girls don't masturbate. Rebuttals by various individuals - including some current and former teen girls, as I recall - didn't sway him in the least.

[kmeyers]

The sad thing is, yes, he apparently was.

He was complaining that ALIAS was unrealistic because of the scene in one issue that showed teenage Jessica Jones masturbating, and stated his opinion that teen girls don't masturbate. Rebuttals by various individuals - including some current and former teen girls, as I recall - didn't sway him in the least.

AH-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
heh
ahhhh, that was awesome, thank you for that.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I'm for civil unions but not gay marriage, and I've been called a bigot and homophobe many times for that. If you don't buy the party line and drink every last drop of party kool-aid, you are a traitor to many folks...

I think the idea that the term "marriage" should be reserved for one group is a poor one, and the arguments you make in defense of that position are pretty darn ridiculous and entirely lacking in merit, but the civil union support argues against you being much of a bigot, if one at all.

[JeffreyWKramer]

AH-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
heh
ahhhh, that was awesome, thank you for that.

Thank iwarrior. I'm just the reporter on that one.

[kmeyers]

Thank iwarrior. I'm just the reporter on that one.
I thank you both.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I thank you both.

That works. You're welcome, on my behalf.

[howyadoin]

He was complaining that ALIAS was unrealistic because of the scene in one issue that showed teenage Jessica Jones masturbating, and stated his opinion that teen girls don't masturbate.I'm officially speechless.

[iwarrior]

Ok,I could keep this rolling forever. Let me just make my final remarks on the subject for now.

I DO support gay marriage. I do not think it is a bad thing. I do not think gays are bad or sinful. I've known a number of gay people throughout my life,and there are very few of them that I have disliked. I'll also admit that I USED to be pretty homophobic in my youth. That changed once I actually got to know some gay people.

However,I think that people on both sides treat it as if we are talking about the balance of the universe being upset or something. People who are against it,in particular,are the ones who make way too much of a stink about it. Look at how many people reelected a person who is basically a criminal and who does not look out for their best interests simply because of this issue. They got conned into thinking that gay marriage will ruin society. It will not.

On the other hand...

The people who DO support gay marriage have been basically treating it like a football game. They seem to feel that they need to beat "them",meaning Middle America. In their eyes,they are horrible homophobic monsters who need to be vanquished,and that all will be right with the world if gay marriage comes to pass. Maybe I'm wrong,but I haven't really seen or heard much from this movement in terms of trying to educate the public as to why this isn't a bad thing,and how society will not be ruined by it.

As many people here know,I consider myself a progressive. In fact,I don't even run away from being called a "socialist" anymore. I strongly dislike this administration,and I am disgusted that they retained their power largely due to an issue which really only affects a relatively small group of people. I am not gay. Whether or not gays get married DOES NOT AFFECT MY LIFE AT ALL. I apologize for being brutally frank,but this is how I feel. This does not make me a homophobe. Not toeing the line does not make me a villian. Bringing up the unfortunate death of Matt Shepard at the hands of some ignorant people has little or nothing to do with being allowed to marry someone of the same sex.

There are serious issues out there which affect almost all Americans regardless of what demographic they fall under,and I am really annoyed that the special interest issue of gay marriage has,at least in the media,seemingly overshadowed most if not all of them.

Yes,the issue of gay marriage should be addressed,but it for damn sure shouldn't help decide an election.

While hate crimes do occur,gays are not by and large dying in the streets,or starving,or being put in harm's way due to an illegal war.

Some more things...


I only lash out when people attack me. If Jeff hadn't called me an asshole,I wouldn't have attacked his personal life.

I am not a Puritan. I do not think sex is bad or dirty or taboo. However,I do think that our culture is completely saturated in it. American needs a cold shower. I also do think that promiscuous sex is unhealthy on a number of levels. Using someone else's body for sexual gratification outside of a loving relationship is just plain empty imo. The fact that the lives of some people revolve around this saddens me because I think this has a negative impact on society. I have seen it first hand. It isn't a hetero or homosexual thing or religious thing with me.

I also think that the behavior directed towards me as of late DOES NOT help improve CBR's reputation as being a place that is free of cliques and where all are welcome.

As for "self-pity",when you have people on message boards(not just this one,I get crapped on all over the internet for my views) constantly telling you that you are "stupid" because of your opinions or that you're a "loser" because of your lot in life,it's hard not to be affected by it. I've tried giving up on BB's before,but imo that would give my detractors the duke and disappoint the people who actually enjoy interacting with me(believe it or not,some people like me in cyberspace). I don't get to talk about my interests with people in rl,and BB's give me a way to do that. It gives me an outlet to express myself in a number of ways. As someone who likes to write( Yeah,I know I'm not a great writer),I feel that I need to do this.


I apologize for turning this whole thread into a donnybrook. I honestly wasn't looking to make trouble here.

[iwarrior]

The sad thing is, yes, he apparently was.

He was complaining that ALIAS was unrealistic because of the scene in one issue that showed teenage Jessica Jones masturbating, and stated his opinion that teen girls don't masturbate. Rebuttals by various individuals - including some current and former teen girls, as I recall - didn't sway him in the least.


I said that most teen girls don't masturbate. Women don't reach their sexual peaks until their 30's. Men do when they're 18. It's common knowledge. A 15 year old girl is unlikely to be interested in sex for physical reasons. Their libidos are not that strong at that age.

Haven't you ever heard teen girls complain that all guys think about is sex? :confused: Teen girls don't think about it because they aren't nearly as horny as the boys are. Jesus.

I think I burst the bubbles of some horny older males when I made my remarks and thusly got kicked around for it.

I have lived. I was a teen boy once. Girls would mostly get disgusted if guys talked about sex around them. The sexually active girls were usually that way because they wanted to get pregnant,make a b/f happy,rebel against their parents wishes,had low self-esteem,etc. Ask anyone who works with kids. The whole phenomenon of oral sex in middle schools is a perfect example of how teen boys and girl are different when it comes to sex. Boys want gratification. Girls want to be liked. Guys aren't performing oral sex on the girls.

This is all way off topic anyway. I don't know why I'm bothering with this. :rolleyes:

[Cam63]

I dunno. Lotsa teenage sheilas around here are going at it like there's no tomorrow. I can only guess what they're thinking.

[stealthwise]

I said that most teen girls don't masturbate. Women don't reach their sexual peaks until their 30's. Men do when they're 18. It's common knowledge. A 15 year old girl is unlikely to be interested in sex for physical reasons. Their libidos are not that strong at that age.

Haven't you ever heard teen girls complain that all guys think about is sex? :confused: Teen girls don't think about it because they aren't nearly as horny as the boys are. Jesus.

Don't u think that might have something to do with their being less sexual taboos/limitations placed on males than females throughout most of history, rather than physical reasons? That's what I got from actual experience, because even women who were willing to talk about sex still found that attitudes towards feminine sexuality are much stricter than towards that of men who are sexually active, especially when they're in their teens.

The stats you speak of in regards to sexual "peaking" comes from orgasms. Men have the most when they're about 18, women when they're in their 30s. That probably comes more from a mastery of sexual activity than anything else, which comes from experience in the case of women.

[howyadoin]

I said that most teen girls don't masturbate. Women don't reach their sexual peaks until their 30's. Men do when they're 18. It's common knowledge. A 15 year old girl is unlikely to be interested in sex for physical reasons. Their libidos are not that strong at that age.

Haven't you ever heard teen girls complain that all guys think about is sex? :confused: Teen girls don't think about it because they aren't nearly as horny as the boys are. Jesus.But see, you're looking at this, much as you often do, in black & white terms. Yes, it's common knowledge that for most women, the sex drive peaks in the 30s. But that hardly means that women in their teens have no sex drive, which is what you seem to be saying.

Are you maybe thinking that people are only interested in sex when they're at their peak? Teenage girls might not think about it as much, but if teenage girls never thought about it at all, teenage pregnancy wouldn't be near the issue it is today.

Getting back to your theory, how do you account for the fact that women in their 20s, a good 10 years away from their sexual peak, are interested in sex?

Or are you saying they don't masturbate either?



One more question: since I apparently missed this debate the first time it came up, was it just a coincidence that you avoided addressing this statement of Jeffrey's?
Rebuttals by various individuals - including some current and former teen girls, as I recall - didn't sway him in the least.

[Cam63]

As for all this talk of masturbation, I just wash and dry the bloody thing :)

[iwarrior]

Women in their teens and 20's have sex for different reasons than guys in that age group. Yes,they're having sex,obviously.

[howyadoin]

Women in their teens and 20's have sex for different reasons than guys in that age group. Yes,they're having sex,obviously.Thanks for the clarification. It sounded like you were saying the opposite, before.

But if they're having sex, why would you conclude that they don't masturbate?

[Ian Boothby]

Segregation and not being allowed to marry someone of the same sex are 2 different issues.


Hey you're back and no, it's still segregating people.

[Ian Boothby]

Actually, to far too many people, yes it does. I'm for civil unions but not gay marriage, and I've been called a bigot and homophobe many times for that. If you don't buy the party line and drink every last drop of party kool-aid, you are a traitor to many folks...


I don't think you're a homophobe. I actually don't feel that's an appropriate word a lot of the time. Why do you feel gays shouldn't have the same rights to be married?

[howyadoin]

As for all this talk of masturbation, I just wash and dry the bloody thingCleanliness is next to godliness.

[Ian Boothby]

I only lash out when people attack me. If Jeff hadn't called me an asshole,I wouldn't have attacked his personal life.

I am not a Puritan. I do not think sex is bad or dirty or taboo. However,I do think that our culture is completely saturated in it. American needs a cold shower. I also do think that promiscuous sex is unhealthy on a number of levels. Using someone else's body for sexual gratification outside of a loving relationship is just plain empty imo. The fact that the lives of some people revolve around this saddens me because I think this has a negative impact on society. I have seen it first hand. It isn't a hetero or homosexual thing or religious thing with me.

I also think that the behavior directed towards me as of late DOES NOT help improve CBR's reputation as being a place that is free of cliques and where all are welcome.
.


Your attack was way below the belt even if the guy throws shit at your windows on a daily basis. "He can get a new boyfriend". Jeeez!

Look when everyone says you're wrong it's really time to step back and go, "hmmm let me think about this". We're not ganging up on you but when you say a groups rights aren't important and that's that just face the facts, well you're going to be called on that. You were, you got angry and nasty and kept repeating yourself. How did you think we'd respond? We'd hear the same idea for the 5th time and go, "Oh now, I get it?"

[Spike-X]

I didn't offend you.

I really think that's up to me to decide, not you.

Then save it for the homophobes. I'm not one of them. Just because I don't think that gay marriage is a massive human rights issue doesn't make me anti-gay.

I never said you were anti-gay. I said you were being a huge flaming arsehole.

[Spike-X]

I only lash out when people attack me. If Jeff hadn't called me an asshole,I wouldn't have attacked his personal life.

Maybe if you weren't acting like an asshole, you wouldn't have been called one?

I also think that the behavior directed towards me as of late DOES NOT help improve CBR's reputation as being a place that is free of cliques and where all are welcome.

Don't start that clique bullshit. The "behaviour directed towards you" is a direct result of your own behaviour towards other people here. And again, it's not your views as such that are the problem here, but the way you express them.

I get crapped on all over the internet for my views...

And that's not telling you something? It can't always be everybody else who's in the wrong.

I apologize for turning this whole thread into a donnybrook. I honestly wasn't looking to make trouble here.

Then you need to watch how you talk to, and about, people. It's that simple.

[Pia Guerra]

First off, your masturbation argument is just silly. Teenaged girls have quite a sex drive (I can attest to more than a few hours spent behind locked doors myself) but are raised to believe that acting on it makes them sluts. They behave defensively to boys' come ons because if they openly welcome such advances they're labeled sluts. Boys for the most part only have to worry about being beaten up in school (at worst, being labeled a fag), girls face outright character assasination from both the boys and girls (which from the girls side can be downright brutal) that can last for years instead of the couple of days it days it takes for a few bruises to heal.

It's when they leave the confines of home and parental expectations that girls "go wild", hence college and the infamous experimentation stage.

Personally, though very boy crazy through high school, and not just the "Oh, he's so dreamy!" crap but the "man I want him in bed now now now!", the one thing that made me wait until I was more mature was sex ed. Pregnancy, STDs and the slut label really scared me off going all the way until I felt I was an equal to who I was snogging with. And boy was it worth it.

Aherm.

Back to the gay marriage issue...

During the suffragette movement, men were telling women the same thing in regards to their getting the vote, "Be patient." "Now's not the right time to debate this." "Let people think about it more." and "But there's a war going on, how can you protest the government at a time like this you silly women?!"

Granted I only know this because I saw Iron Jawed Angels on the Movie Channel last summer and please don't take that as a recommendation because it was the most godawful film I've seen in years.

But the point is blaming people who just want their share of rights (the right to property, to child custody, and medical consent) for the reason your guy didn't win is dumb. Let's put it another way, pardon the extremity of the analogy, I do see that it fits:

Over a dozen people were shot by Lee Malvo last year. Many of the victims want their day in court but because Malvo crossed state lines, the first victims take precedence and Malvo will be sentenced for that crime only in that state only. So who is to blame for the rest of the victims not getting the recognition of justice? The first victims? Of course not, Lee Malvo did the shooting and to quote Speed, "He's the asshole!"

Blame the gay rights movement all you want but the real asshole is Bush. He's the one that orchestrated a movement to sway people to vote with their morals and not the law. He's the one using his personal beliefs in god to go against the constitution and the little part that says there will be a separation of church and state. He's the one making a minor issue like gay marriage that is clearly important to the gay community and blowing it way out of proportion, scaring the crap out of little old ladies and god-fearing folk who haven't a clue what it really means.

A portion of that anger of course should go to the Dems for not defending the issue better, for not educating voters as to what gay marriage means to them but for pity's sake, don't blame homosexuals for not keeping quiet, for not waiting until later. If women did that we'd still be waiting.

[Gurl Reader]

First off, your masturbation argument is just silly. Teenaged girls have quite a sex drive (I can attest to quite a few hours spent behind locked doors myself) but are raised to believe that acting on it makes them sluts. They behave defensively to boys' come ons because if they openly welcome such advances they're labeled sluts. Boys for the most part only have to worry about being beaten up in school (at worst, being labeled a fag), girls face outright character assasination from both the boys and girls (which from the girls side can be downright brutal) that can last for years instead of the couple of days it days it takes for a few bruises to heal.

It's when they leave the confines of home and parental expectations that girls "go wild", hence college and the infamous experimentation stage.

Personally, though very boy crazy through high school, and not just the "Oh, he's so dreamy!" crap but the "man I want him in bed now now now!", the one thing that made me wait until I was more mature was sex ed. Pregnancy, STDs and the slut label really scared me off going all the way until I felt I was an equal to who I was snogging with. And boy was it worth it.



Here, here. The double- standard. If a guy scores he's a playa. If girl scores she's a slut. I'm girl and I think about sex just like guys. It's not like we don't care for sex until we turn 30. We have hormones racing through us as well.

[Spike-X]

...for pity's sake, don't blame homosexuals for not keeping quiet, for not waiting until later. If women did that we'd still be waiting.

And if only the people affected by racism in the fifties stood up to demand civil rights, they'd still be sitting in the back of the bus.

Equal rights is everybody's business.

[Corrina]

I said that most teen girls don't masturbate. Women don't reach their sexual peaks until their 30's. Men do when they're 18. It's common knowledge. A 15 year old girl is unlikely to be interested in sex for physical reasons. Their libidos are not that strong at that age.

I know it won't help but, wow, are you utterly and completely wrong on this one.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I know it won't help but, wow, are you utterly and completely wrong on this one.

So *everyone* keeps telling him. iwarrior, is there a particular reason you continue to hold to these ideas, when every single person you talk to tells you - based on both scientific evidence and personal experience - they are bullshit? Your appeal to "common knowledge" doesn't cut it, because you are completely misinterpreting the meaning and application of said "common knowledge."

[the4thpip]

Posted this on the politics thread, too, but I guess it fits in better here:

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Bush will renew a quest in his second term for a constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriage as essential to a "hopeful and decent" society, his top political aide said on Sunday.

Bush's call for a constitutional ban on gay marriages failed last year in Congress, but his position was seen as a key factor motivating Christian conservatives concerned about "moral values" to turn out in large numbers and help supply Bush with a winning margin in last week's election.

"If we want to have a hopeful and decent society, we ought to aim for the ideal, and the ideal is that marriage ought to be, and should be, a union of a man and a woman," Bush political aide Karl Rove told "Fox News Sunday."

Them good old boys is hopefull that the homos will be decent and keep riding on the back of the bus, I guess.

[TCJohnson]

God, now that pisses me off.

It is one thing to argue that marriage is a religious institution that does not include same sex union. I can understand that.

But to say that gay marriages will make our society indecent...that just pisses me off.

[TCJohnson]

I know it won't help but, wow, are you utterly and completely wrong on this one.

Don't you find his world fascinating?

[Dreadstar]

So, knowing that Bush will try to pass his Federal Amaendment again, and knowing that some states have voted a similar State amendment, what do you folk plan to do about it?


I mean aside form bitching and moaning about it here?

Admitedly, the foreigners have nothing they CAN do about it, in practicality.

You US citizens, on the other hand, your assignment for the near future should be to write your congressman, and get OTHERS of your mindset to write their congressmen.

Get involved, ladies and gentlemen. Get. Involved.

[the4thpip]

Admitedly, the foreigners have nothing they CAN do about it, in practicality.


Not so. I'm on the board of an AIDS charity. In that position, I can try and contact other groups to organise a protest. I've been thinking about contacting people in the music business to maybe record a protest song. Between Elton John, Luther Vandross (if he's recovered) and Melissa Etheridge there should be dozens of angry gay musiscians.

[Dreadstar]

Not so. I'm on the board of an AIDS charity. In that position, I can try and contact other groups to organise a protest. I've been thinking about contacting people in the music business to maybe record a protest song. Between Elton John, Luther Vandross (if he's recovered) and Melissa Etheridge there should be dozens of angry gay musiscians.


I stand corrected, kudos.

[Pixies Chick]

I think the mainstream media will help fight against it. At least this guy gives me hope.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5445086/
A loss for true conservatism (David Shuster)

On Tuesday, eleven different states outlawed gay marriage.

The basic argument I heard was not about marriage (more on that below) but about being gay. And a majority of voters seem to believe that homosexuality is an "immoral lifestyle choice."

Hmmmm. The problem is that anybody who has a relative or friend who is gay also knows it is not a "choice." It is something wired into the genes of approximately 3 or 4 percent of the human population in every single culture on the planet. Secondly, when it comes to morality, consider this: While the Bible does suggest homosexuality is an abomination (Leviticus 18:22), The Bible also says in Leviticus 25:44 that we may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations; Exodus 35:2 says that my neighbor who works on the Sabbath should be put to death; Lev. 19:27 expressly forbids men from getting their hair trimmed; Lev. 11:6-9 states that touching a dead pig makes us unclean (Are you ready for some football?) and Lev. 19:19 forbids us from planting two different crops in the same field or wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread. The penalty? Lev. 24:10-16 suggests we stone people to death.

Maybe some Americans want to return to the days of slavery, devout observance to the Sabbath, long hair, all cotton clothes, and stoning people... I would prefer that our society move forward.

And the best way to move any society forward is to strengthen the family. I adore my family and consider them to be the best part of my entire life. And I'm absolutely convinced that "marriage" fosters social cohesion, emotional security, and economic prudence. That's why I'm baffled as to why we would keep such an institution away from anybody. (I'm not talking about "religion-sanctioned marriage," I'm referring to the civil institution of marriage—the kind that involves a "state-sponsored" license.)

The fact is, the couple down the street... whether they are straight or gay, has no bearing whatsoever on my marriage or yours. Gay marriage could only undermine or delegitimize straight marriage if it were a real alternative. But, do you know any heterosexuals who could be persuaded by law (or anything else for that matter) to have sex with or marry someone of their own sex? I don't.

Any intelligent and logical thinking person must know that gays are not going away. So why not coax these human beings into traditional values? Marriage reinforces a healthy social trend... and it provides stability. Isn't that what conservatism stands for?

If we really want to improve and strengthen the institution of marriage, instead of passing laws that exclude couples, shouldn't we be focused on why 50% of all marriages end in divorce? Why not pass a law that requires all couples (as some churches do) to meet with a pastor and talk about hundreds of issues before the marriage. Or how about a law that says you can't marry anybody you met in the last 24 hours?

Unfortunately, logic and common sense to be in short supply these days. Instead, we have an endless supply of hatred and fear. Why is that?

DShuster@msnbc.com

[the4thpip]

Something seems to be screwy with this thread... :confused:

[JeffreyWKramer]

So, knowing that Bush will try to pass his Federal Amaendment again, and knowing that some states have voted a similar State amendment, what do you folk plan to do about it?

Well, so far I've written the US Senators and House members for the State of Iowa. I've also started my personal boycott of states which have gay marriage bans and of companies based in those states or that announce major expansion into said states, and I've started talking with some folk in the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom (NCSF) and some related organizations about the possibility of calling for larger-scale boycotts.

How's that for a start?

Pip - good for you!

Pixies - I hope the cause does get a lot of support from the media. At the same time, this is too important an issue to leave up to pundits, columnists and celebrity spokesmen... so, as Dread asked, what are you going to do about it?

[EdContradictory]

What the heck is wrong with this thread? I can't see any posts on any page after page five, but it still gives me the option of looking at pages up into the 30s.

[jimmything2681]

Homosexuality is wrong. Comparing Homosexuality to a persons skin color just doesn't work. One is what you are born as and has no bearing on who you are as a person. The other is a action that you conciously decide to take. Now having said that I know that alot of homosexuals don't feel like it is a choice that is because there is a strong link between being a homosexual and being molested as a child (you'll notice that alot of people don't want to talk about the link between pedophilia and homosexuality). Homosexuality should have never been stopped thinking about as a mental disease (and no i'm not saying that they should be locked up in a mental institution or anything). It is something that should be viewed as something to work through with therapy. Kelptomaniacs may not be able to be "cured" either does that mean they shouldn't seek help through therapy?

Now about gay marriage I have no problem with people doing whatever they want in their house thats fine. But this is beyond that. Marriage is a way to strengthen the family unit to promote what is best for the country as a whole which is a man and a woman living together and maybe raise children or not. Now if gay couples get married is marriage going to fall apart tommorow no but over time it'll be something that makes marriage less important and special and will make people think "Well if anyone can get married whats so special about marriage" it'll be a slow errosion of the concept.

Holy shit, are you really that stupid? In a morbid way, I'm glad I took you off ignore.

[The Real Nemo]

Thanks for the clarification. It sounded like you were saying the opposite, before.

But if they're having sex, why would you conclude that they don't masturbate?
Because according to him although women in that age group have sex they're not at all interested in it for physical reasons... :rolleyes:

[howyadoin]

Weird. When I try to go to the last few pages of this thread, there don't seem to be any posts there.

[sk716]

Freaky, what is up with this thread. I know there have to be other posts because Jeffery (my new board hero) is quoting them as is howyadoin, but I sure don't see them. And I'd like to so I can tear into this thread as the resident lesbian.

And why is this the invisible endless thread?

Anyway, three cheers for Jeffery!

[the4thpip]

Ok... This thread seems a little better than yesterday, but a bunch of posts are still missing.
Like the one where I told Dreadstar that I would try to do something even as a foreigner.

[Dreadstar]

... How's that for a start?

It certainly gives you a lot of leeway (and legitimacy of purpose) to bitch about it in my eyes, that's for sure.

I'm just not one for pissing and moaning all the while sitting on your thumbs.

[Smoogis]

Um...to join the thread drift conversation on teenaged girls and sex drives...

I'm a virgin. I've never had a boyfriend, and I've never masturbated. But I know, for a fact, that I am quite...well...horny. Out of all the respect I have for you, iwarrior, can you tell me how you felt the last time you were a teenaged girl?











*goes back to her turtle shell happy place*

[Ed Cunard]

The easiest (or, the most pain-in-the-ass, depending on your POV) to read this thread is to reply or mock reply, because the responses show up below the "Reply to Thread" section of the window.

[Rallura]

Iwarrior, I don't believe you are a massive homophobe, or whatever else you seem to feel I think. I think you have said some very rude things.This post is in response to your stance that gay marriage is a special interest and not important in view of other issues.

I never said that other issues are not important. They are. And if you want to start a thread on the issues that are important to you, I would be more then happy to discuss them with you. But this is the gay marriage thread. Therefore, I will continue to discuss gay marriage in this thread, whether or not you feel it's important.

I feel it's important. I was thinking about this the other day. Wondering why it hits me so hard. It's two fold.

One is, as I stated, I have friends and family, people I care about deeply, who are very affected by this. And when they hurt, I hurt. It's not a special interest to me, it's my interest.

The other is also family related. One side of my family is a very old American family. Ancestors came over on the Mayflower, decended from John Quincy Adams, that sort of thing. As for the other side, I am the third generation decended from Italian immigrants. Both side of my family constantly stressed how important America was as a leader, and as an idea. An idea based on freedom and equality. And anytime we legislate discrimination, we destroy that idea. The idea that my ancestors sailed across an ocean for, and struggled for. And for thier sake, and mine, and the sake of that idea, I will continue to take this issue very seriously.

[Rallura]

So, knowing that Bush will try to pass his Federal Amaendment again, and knowing that some states have voted a similar State amendment, what do you folk plan to do about it?


I mean aside form bitching and moaning about it here?

Admitedly, the foreigners have nothing they CAN do about it, in practicality.

You US citizens, on the other hand, your assignment for the near future should be to write your congressman, and get OTHERS of your mindset to write their congressmen.

Get involved, ladies and gentlemen. Get. Involved.
Gee, like the letters I have been writing to all sorts of politicians for over a year? Why didn't I think of it myself! Thanks pal! :P

[west3man]

I typed a ton of crap that I just deleted because if *I* wouldn't wanna read it, I damn-sure don't wanna bore anybody else with it.

Simply put: Both sides have some very valid points. Past offenses by BOTH SIDES have not been forgotten. That's one of the reasons why some of the more callous or offensive statements from this thread were made.

Whether you agree with the above or not, for the greater good, I think it'd be best to bury the hatchet - and not in anyone's back :p . Does this mean no one will EVER bring up the past? No. Nor should it, I guess. But I'd suggest making sure our actions are based on what's happening in the now and that bringing up the past serves a purpose that can be achieved in no other way.

Let's talk about the easy and the tough topics without name-calling, without say EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS A LYING, CAKE-LIFE HAVING, ISOLATED-FROM-SOCIETY, CHIC-ISSUE-LOVING, ARSEHOLE... if at all possible. If we can't do that, we're doomed to end up in this situation over and over, again. I don't think most of us want that. I think this is a small price to pay for relative peace.

(Hell, how about using and recognizing qualifiers more? "Some people who..." or "most of those people THAT I'VE MET..." at least leaves someone room for a little dignity so that they can respond to the argument and not the offense.)

[the4thpip]

Another "plus ca change" map:

http://thechrisproject.com/images/map_nowvsthen.jpg

[Dreadstar]

Gee, like the letters I have been writing to all sorts of politicians for over a year? Why didn't I think of it myself! Thanks pal! :P
Huzzah! and a gold star!


But you know I was only chiding the ones whose total contribution would be flapping their gums.

Right?

Not that there's anything wrong with gum-flapping. Not in the least. It just doesn't seem to get much done, on the practical side.

[Rallura]

Huzzah! and a gold star!


But you know I was only chiding the ones whose total contribution would be flapping their gums.

Right?

Not that there's anything wrong with gum-flapping. Not in the least. It just doesn't seem to get much done, on the practical side.
I know. I was just feeling fiesty. And you know I give grief to friends and enemies alike! I am an equal opportunity pissant! Whee!

Dang these bifocals! I had an ontopic point too, and, new bifocals causing stress! Cannot think! Will return! Too many exclamation points!

[TCJohnson]

I don't know if I approve of gay marriages. I mean, marriages in out society are more religious based. I would support civil unions that had ALL the rights of marriage, but not gay marriages.


But you know what? That doesn't matter. My beliefs on this issue don't matter.

Part of being a free nation is that we need to allow other people the freedom to live their lives, even though we don't agree with their decisions. Who a person should marry should remain with that person, and nobody else, including the government, should have a say in that decision. ALthough I hate to compare the two, I hate the KKK and don't approve of what they say. But the fact that I don't like it shouldn't matter since they have the same rights that I do...and to take away their own rights would be to put mine in danger.

One of the prices of freedom is that it means people who you don't agree with are free as well.

[JeffreyWKramer]

One of the prices of freedom is that it means people who you don't agree with are free as well.

If only the religious right, the cultural conservatives and those who voted for those damn gay marriage initiatives understood that...

[Adam Crocker]

Another "plus ca change" map:


What in the HELL are you trying to imply here? That the states that voted Red = the Confederate States from the US Civil War. It's not only a ludicrous suggestion it also ignores the closeness of the vote with the simplifying nature of the maps.

[the4thpip]

What in the HELL are you trying to imply here? That the states that voted Red = the Confederate States from the US Civil War. It's not only a ludicrous suggestion it also ignores the closeness of the vote with the simplifying nature of the maps.
The map is not a suggestion, it's just a fact.

While republicans like to remember the public that the Democrats have a racist past, the states that were the most racist in the past are now the ones that put Bush with his homophobic agenda back in power. Conclusions are there to be drawn, as are the facts.

[Dreadstar]

The map is not a suggestion, it's just a fact.

While republicans like to remember the public that the Democrats have a racist past, the states that were the most racist in the past are now the ones that put Bush with his homophobic agenda back in power. Conclusions are there to be drawn, as are the facts.


Ah, I'd suggest that it fits more under the thread "Vilification of the South," then.

'Cause, y'know, that's textbook...

[PatrickG]

I'd actually go for a T-shirt of those maps. Heh.

But re: the boycott.

I'd suggest putting more thought into it.

I live in a state with the ban in effect. I have family that run a business here and the only link to the state government that they have is paying sales tax and employee benefits, possibly. They don't discriminate against homosexuals. They have employed homosexuals. They have homosexual customers on a regular basis (still a minority of their clientelle) and they are not only non-discriminatory but have tried to help struggling homosexuals they've met.

But they have a business in a state that has the ban because, well frankly, almost everyone I'm any kind of semi-close blood relation to lives in a state with a ban on gay marriage.

It seems wrong with me to punish business owners for where they live or expect them to move out.

And what kind of message does it send to abandon local clothing outlets and coffee shops for soulless beasts like Wal-Mart and Starbucks, based entirely on where somebody's corporate HQ is?

I think, honestly, that gay rights activists need to go for a more Martin Luther King Jr. approach. March. Not in pride but protest. Refuse to pay state income taxes on the basis that your basic civil rights are not being recognized. Be prepared to go to jail.

Guys like iwarrior don't take gay rights seriously because the gay rights community hasn't mobilized nearly as well as the black civil rights community. Treat it like life or death. Get clergy on your side. Write to international human rights organizations. Have people, at least select volunteers, who will go to jail for acts of civil disobedience. Organize. Buy commercials on TV.

Gay rights is a serious issue. People within the movement need to stop acting like it's the red had society and mobilize. Hit the streets. It's been 15 years since I've seen a newscast about an angry gay rights parade. The movement seems more like a tea party social club now.

The marriage issue doesn't have much immediacy for me. I have too many other agendas that simply come first but that doesn't mean I don't think the ban is wrong... and none of my gay friends plan to move over it.

To be honest, I'd just be happy if I could help the gays and lesbians on my college campus overturn the Board of Trustees' decision to bar them from forming a club. Too many issues get swept under the rug at my college and the Board bothers me more than the Bush administration because it's more immediate and it will still be here in 4 years.

Here, rape accusations prompt quiet investigations that go nowhere. Racially inflamatory graffitti goes with a "no comment". Student-teacher relations get hushed up. And gays aren't allowed to organize.

And why am I here? I'm here because it's a good school in what is essentially still a good state. The instructors are progressive as are a decent chunk of the students. It's just the administration that refuses to budge or listen to the student government and faculty's opinions. The board quite recently has made a habit of ignoring unanimous resolutions among the students and faculty on matters of policy.

[Ian Boothby]

What in the HELL are you trying to imply here? That the states that voted Red = the Confederate States from the US Civil War. It's not only a ludicrous suggestion it also ignores the closeness of the vote with the simplifying nature of the maps.

It's just a chilling coincidence.

[Yoda]

The map is not a suggestion, it's just a fact.

While republicans like to remember the public that the Democrats have a racist past, the states that were the most racist in the past are now the ones that put Bush with his homophobic agenda back in power. Conclusions are there to be drawn, as are the facts.

The entire country was racist in the 1800's. The only reason the North didn't have slaves was because the northern states economies weren't built around plantations and the like. The Civil War also wasn't entirely about slavery. That's just the oversimplified grade school answer.

Also while i think the bans are horrible equating banning gay marriage to slavery is a bit of a strech.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: The boycott, as I said in the original statement, it would be targeting large companies based in states with gay marriage bans, or expanding operations in same, which do not speak out against the bans, either by statement or through their actions (for example, by providing for insurance benefits for domestic partners). There's no way to target individual mom-and-pop businesses with such a ban, nor is there probably a value to doing so. On the other hand, targeting large businesses gets attention. Money talks, and if a big insurance company loses accounts or an auto manufacturer sees a significant decrease in sales, they will pay attention - and put political pressure on legislators who might otherwise feel free to ignore this particular issue in favor of the bigot lobby.

Might some people get hurt financially? Sure, that's unfortunately always going to be true with boycotts. However, recent history has shown that financial efforts tend to have more impact sooner than protests alone. An NCSF boycott of a couple of hotel chains a couple years back resulted in those companies changing policies and firing some particularly bigoted managers and executives.

Now, I certainly understand why individuals living in states where such boycotts would be focused might not support them. But, on a national level, this seems a promising strategy, and is being considered. Beyond that, maybe the individuals in those states who did not vote for those loathesome initiatives will put some pressure on their fellow citizens to stop behaving as a bunch of bigots and ignoramuses.

[heystacy]

The map is not a suggestion, it's just a fact.

While republicans like to remember the public that the Democrats have a racist past, the states that were the most racist in the past are now the ones that put Bush with his homophobic agenda back in power. Conclusions are there to be drawn, as are the facts.


Please keep in mind while southern states wanted to uphold slaverly laws, blacks didn't have it so good in so-called free states either. There was all that "seperate but equal" bullshit to to deal with. That was a majority of the states.

[Yoda]

Please keep in mind while southern states wanted to uphold slaverly laws, blacks didn't have it so good in so-called free states either. There was all that "seperate but equal" bullshit to to deal with. That was a majority of the states.

In the 1850's there wasn't even "seperate but equal" that came later in the late 1800's. It was probably just "seperate."

[heystacy]

In the 1850's there wasn't even "seperate but equal" that came later in the late 1800's. It was probably just "seperate."

I stand corrected.

With that being said, things seem to move towards only south racist. No. America racist, sexist, & homophobic.

[the4thpip]

The entire country was racist in the 1800's. The only reason the North didn't have slaves was because the northern states economies weren't built around plantations and the like. The Civil War also wasn't entirely about slavery. That's just the oversimplified grade school answer.

Also while i think the bans are horrible equating banning gay marriage to slavery is a bit of a strech.
Not everytime somebody draws a connection he equates. It's more nuanced than that.

[Spike-X]

Hopefully this will settle the "Red vs. Blue" debate once and for all.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/Spike-X/misc/bothstoopid.gif


There. Everybody happy?

[jimmything2681]

Not everytime somebody draws a connection he equates. It's more nuanced than that.


Flip flopper. Why do you hate America?

[Ian Boothby]

He hates the freedom.

[the4thpip]

It's true, it's just another word for "nothing left to lose."

[sk716]

The entire country was racist in the 1800's. The only reason the North didn't have slaves was because the northern states economies weren't built around plantations and the like. The Civil War also wasn't entirely about slavery.

Nope, it was about money and economy, but you have to read real books to know that, not just your history textbook. But on the rest of the quote you're right on the money.

And how in the HELL did discussion of the marriage ban suddenly demonize the South over slavery on this board!?! Don't you think we get enough of that down here every other day?

[Cam63]

Yeah, sk. I know a lovely lady who resides in Georgia and she gets very sick of all the " southern rascist " humour thrown at her and her mob for no other reason other them living in the South.

[Ian Boothby]

The way it usually goes is, people ask why gay folks need to be married. That leads to civil rights discussion. Which leads to black civil rights. Which leads to the South being painted in a not too flattering light.

[sk716]

I do understand that Ian, I really do, but it irks me beyond reason every time racism in the South comes up and we are once again vilified for something that ended over 100 years ago.

[Pixies Chick]

Pixies - I hope the cause does get a lot of support from the media. At the same time, this is too important an issue to leave up to pundits, columnists and celebrity spokesmen... so, as Dread asked, what are you going to do about it?

You're right, this isn't a cause to let others fight for us. I think the Human Rights Campaign is a good organization. They provide frequent updates and opportunities to contact politicians. My husband and I have lots of gay friends, so we hear about actions pretty quickly.

Work has been a breeze as far as gay rights and inclusiveness. People are very open and they offer domestic benefits, same as straight couples. I got to table for my company at gay pride this year, which was lots of fun.

School is harder. I go to a Catholic university, and not everybody is as open to homosexuality, even in the psychology program. The party line seems to be that it's okay to be against it, as long as you know you're against it, and don't let it interfere with your work. The alternative is seen as restrictive on an individual's rights to believe what they want. I'm not comfortable with that, but I'm not sure how to gain ground with fellow students.

[Yoda]

Nope, it was about money and economy, but you have to read real books to know that, not just your history textbook. But on the rest of the quote you're right on the money.

And how in the HELL did discussion of the marriage ban suddenly demonize the South over slavery on this board!?! Don't you think we get enough of that down here every other day?

Hey, I was defending the south! I've read some real books about it too, including a lot of the Supreme Court cases from that era. The things that the Justices who were against slavery said in that era would be considered some of the most racist statements you could make today. I was trying to point out that the map that was posted really wasn't fair.

[PatrickG]

Would a fair armchair analysis be to say that red states are generally against regular, rigorous and radical expansion of civil rights.

Blue states tend to feel that the expansion of civil rights both in number and to different kinds of groups should never stop.

[sk716]

Hey, I was defending the south! I've read some real books about it too, including a lot of the Supreme Court cases from that era. The things that the Justices who were against slavery said in that era would be considered some of the most racist statements you could make today. I was trying to point out that the map that was posted really wasn't fair.

I wasn't attacking you Yoda. For the most part I was agreeing with you.

[iwarrior]

So *everyone* keeps telling him. iwarrior, is there a particular reason you continue to hold to these ideas, when every single person you talk to tells you - based on both scientific evidence and personal experience - they are bullshit? Your appeal to "common knowledge" doesn't cut it, because you are completely misinterpreting the meaning and application of said "common knowledge."

I'm just speaking based on my experiences with people. In general,women are just not as horny as men and are interested in sex for different reasons.

Look,I've been in situations where I've been around nothing but guys and around nothing but women. Guys CONSTANTLY talk about who's they'd "bang" and such. Women don't do that. In fact,they hardly talk about men at all.

I've been around. You don't need a degree for that. I know it's easy to bash a regular joe like me for speaking my mind,but c'mon.

[iwarrior]

Your attack was way below the belt even if the guy throws shit at your windows on a daily basis. "He can get a new boyfriend". Jeeez!

Look when everyone says you're wrong it's really time to step back and go, "hmmm let me think about this". We're not ganging up on you but when you say a groups rights aren't important and that's that just face the facts, well you're going to be called on that. You were, you got angry and nasty and kept repeating yourself. How did you think we'd respond? We'd hear the same idea for the 5th time and go, "Oh now, I get it?"


Ok,fine. I'm sorry. I did get carried away.

I also never said that gay rights are unimportant. I just think that the issue of gay marriage is relatively small compared to what else is going on.

Maybe when I said that "both sides make too much of it",I should have said,"liberals and conservatives". I didn't mean it to come off as "gays vs. straights".

[iwarrior]

Maybe if you weren't acting like an asshole, you wouldn't have been called one?



Don't start that clique bullshit. The "behaviour directed towards you" is a direct result of your own behaviour towards other people here. And again, it's not your views as such that are the problem here, but the way you express them.



And that's not telling you something? It can't always be everybody else who's in the wrong.



Then you need to watch how you talk to, and about, people. It's that simple.


You need to watch how you talk to me. You started attacking me.


Sorry for having strong opinions on things and for being frank. :rolleyes:

You can always put me on ignore too,which I'll do to you. :D

:mad:

[iwarrior]

First off, your masturbation argument is just silly. Teenaged girls have quite a sex drive (I can attest to more than a few hours spent behind locked doors myself) but are raised to believe that acting on it makes them sluts. They behave defensively to boys' come ons because if they openly welcome such advances they're labeled sluts. Boys for the most part only have to worry about being beaten up in school (at worst, being labeled a fag), girls face outright character assasination from both the boys and girls (which from the girls side can be downright brutal) that can last for years instead of the couple of days it days it takes for a few bruises to heal.

It's when they leave the confines of home and parental expectations that girls "go wild", hence college and the infamous experimentation stage.

Personally, though very boy crazy through high school, and not just the "Oh, he's so dreamy!" crap but the "man I want him in bed now now now!", the one thing that made me wait until I was more mature was sex ed. Pregnancy, STDs and the slut label really scared me off going all the way until I felt I was an equal to who I was snogging with. And boy was it worth it.

Aherm.

Back to the gay marriage issue...

During the suffragette movement, men were telling women the same thing in regards to their getting the vote, "Be patient." "Now's not the right time to debate this." "Let people think about it more." and "But there's a war going on, how can you protest the government at a time like this you silly women?!"

Granted I only know this because I saw Iron Jawed Angels on the Movie Channel last summer and please don't take that as a recommendation because it was the most godawful film I've seen in years.

But the point is blaming people who just want their share of rights (the right to property, to child custody, and medical consent) for the reason your guy didn't win is dumb. Let's put it another way, pardon the extremity of the analogy, I do see that it fits:

Over a dozen people were shot by Lee Malvo last year. Many of the victims want their day in court but because Malvo crossed state lines, the first victims take precedence and Malvo will be sentenced for that crime only in that state only. So who is to blame for the rest of the victims not getting the recognition of justice? The first victims? Of course not, Lee Malvo did the shooting and to quote Speed, "He's the asshole!"

Blame the gay rights movement all you want but the real asshole is Bush. He's the one that orchestrated a movement to sway people to vote with their morals and not the law. He's the one using his personal beliefs in god to go against the constitution and the little part that says there will be a separation of church and state. He's the one making a minor issue like gay marriage that is clearly important to the gay community and blowing it way out of proportion, scaring the crap out of little old ladies and god-fearing folk who haven't a clue what it really means.

A portion of that anger of course should go to the Dems for not defending the issue better, for not educating voters as to what gay marriage means to them but for pity's sake, don't blame homosexuals for not keeping quiet, for not waiting until later. If women did that we'd still be waiting.


Well,I never said all teen girls weren't horny. And teen girls are having sex,so that "slut" label isn't stopping them.

I'm also not blaming gay people or the gay rights movement for why Bush won. I'm blaming the issue(in part,yes Bush used this to his advantage) which people(on the right and left) have blown out of proportion. This is about ONE issue,not gay rights as a whole.

And what gays have gone through in this country pales in comparison to what women and blacks went through in this country. I'm sorry.

[iwarrior]

Guys like iwarrior don't take gay rights seriously because the gay rights community hasn't mobilized nearly as well as the black civil rights community.

Yeah,"guys like me".

That's not true at all. I do take gay rights as a whole seriously. I just don't think that whether or not a man can marry a man or a woman can marry a woman is that massive an issue.

Maybe if the isse was really that important,you'd see stronger mobilization. But there isn't,so...


Treat it like life or death.

It won't work,'cause it 'aint life or death.


Get clergy on your side.

That would help definitely.


Write to international human rights organizations.

Yeah,this is as bad as ethnic cleansing. They'll just add it to their list,put out a report,and that'll be it. Amnesty Intl. has already been through this bit with the US on other issues.


Have people, at least select volunteers, who will go to jail for acts of civil disobedience. Organize. Buy commercials on TV.

I think you'll just end up lighting a fire under the holy-rollers and homophobes.


It's been 15 years since I've seen a newscast about an angry gay rights parade.

Maybe it's because they don't have much to be angry about. I mean,if they don't think it's a big deal...

[Ian Boothby]

I also never said that gay rights are unimportant. I just think that the issue of gay marriage is relatively small compared to what else is going on.

".

You said to face facts, that they aren't that big a deal. That's another way of saying unimportant. What I'm saying is that you can care about both gay rights AND the rights of the poor AND for that matter those suffering from illness.

[Ian Boothby]

I'm just speaking based on my experiences with people. In general,women are just not as horny as men and are interested in sex for different reasons.

Look,I've been in situations where I've been around nothing but guys and around nothing but women. Guys CONSTANTLY talk about who's they'd "bang" and such. Women don't do that. In fact,they hardly talk about men at all.

.

I hang around very different women than the ones you know. Women who talk a blue streak about sex.

[Ian Boothby]

And what gays have gone through in this country pales in comparison to what women and blacks went through in this country. I'm sorry.

Why does it have to be a contest?

[iwarrior]

Why does it have to be a contest?

I didn't say it was. It's just that no one is dying because of this either.

[iwarrior]

You said to face facts, that they aren't that big a deal. That's another way of saying unimportant. What I'm saying is that you can care about both gay rights AND the rights of the poor AND for that matter those suffering from illness.

I didn't say that gays are unimportant or that none of their issues are worthwhile.

[Peter]

Why shouldn't two men or women in a loving relationship have the right to get married?

Because the concept of marriage is about men and women.

Yes, it sucks, and yes, gay couples should most certainly have the same legal rights as married couples -- but as it stands the concept of "marriage" only refers to partners of different genders. It's just the way it is, whether the gay community likes it or not.

And I'm gay, and I don't take the gay rights movement seriously, and I don't think I ever will. So I don't sweat it. You have a huge mass of people screaming, "We're no different to all you straight people, so now look how different we are, but anybody who *does* look is an evil homophobic nazi!" It's hypocritical and idiotic, and worthy of scorn.

[Spike-X]

You need to watch how you talk to me. You started attacking me.

Only after you put the boot into Tom. If I'd known you were going to attack him personally when he's not even around to defend himself, I never would have brought his name into the discussion. So if/when you're reading this Tom, I apologise.

Sorry for having strong opinions on things and for being frank.

Once more, with feeling - it's not your opinions which elicited such a strong reaction in people, and it's not your frankness. It's the way in which you chose to launch an unwarranted, unprovoked personal attack which got people's backs up.

You can always put me on ignore too,which I'll do to you. :D

:mad:

No, I won't do that. I've not felt the need to use the ignore funcion on any of the boards I've been a part of in the last five years I've been on the Internet, I certainly don't see the need to break that streak for a pissant like you.

[Spike-X]

I know it's easy to bash a regular joe like me for speaking my mind,but c'mon.

*sigh* Here we go again with the classist persecution complex. Nobody's 'bashing' you because you're a 'regular joe', for fuck's sake. People are disagreeing with you based on their own experiences. Is that really so difficult to comprehend?

[Ian Boothby]

Because the concept of marriage is about men and women.

Yes, it sucks, and yes, gay couples should most certainly have the same legal rights as married couples -- but as it stands the concept of "marriage" only refers to partners of different genders. It's just the way it is, whether the gay community likes it or not.
.


The concept of marriage has meant many things, in the past it was about transfer of property (with the women also being property) and today it's become about love and commitment. Since gay folks have the same love and commitment as straights there's no reason marriage shouldn't cover them as well.

"It's just the way it is" is the kind of thinking you need to fight for any civil rights to change.

[Ian Boothby]

I didn't say that gays are unimportant or that none of their issues are worthwhile.

No you said that I should face facts because the issue of gay marriage isn't important.

[Ian Boothby]

I didn't say it was. It's just that no one is dying because of this either.


There's a fellow on this board who you don't care for who is going to be seperated from the man he loves because he can't marry him. I don't know if anyone is dying because of this but people are being hurt.

[Gail Simone]

You know, I read about as much of this thread as I could before wanting to vomit.

These people don't want to take anything from you, they don't want to destroy anything you hold dear, they don't want anything to DO with you.

They just want to not be considered less than everyone else. I'm amazed some of you have the heart to stand in front of that and tell them no, especially for the endless parade of crappy reasons listed here.

It's not ABOUT you. Stay the hell out of it. You get to be closed-minded in your own home. Don't go into someone else's house and be their frickin' hall monitor. You're uncomfortable with it? WHO GIVES A SHIT? I'm uncomfortable with a hell of a lot of heterosexuals, starting with Liza Minelli, but I don't feel it's my civic duty to outlaw her.

I'm sure of one thing, and this comes from being a stone cold patriot...

You guys will lose this battle. Say what you like, history is going to whiz by you like a cheetah past a tree. People are going to look back at your fears and insecurities and shake their heads in wonder and shame. it may take a while, but change is coming and your pretend excuses are going to be exposed as the ratshit and batwings that they are.

That's my certainty.

My HOPE is that some of you will realize that neither you nor the government have the right to tell people they're not married just because they have the same goddamned PLUMBING.

These are real people. They're not tv caricatures. They don't mean to ruin your digestion. Leave them alone. You're telling them they're not good enough to be married isn't going to improve anyone's lot in life one damn jot.

Gail

[Buzz Maverik]

These people don't want to take anything from you, they don't want to destroy anything you hold dear, they don't want anything to DO with you.

Gail

They don't? None of 'em? But I happen to be a very attractive man. I work out, I....

[Gail Simone]

Yes, but your toenails are DISGUSTING.

Gail

[Buzz Maverik]

This is freaky! How'd YOU know about my toe---....oh, wait, you didn't. You're kidding. Because I have nice toenails. Really. Clean and short.

Sounds of running feet. Car door slamming. Engine starting. Car peeling out.

[west3man]

Only after you put the boot into Tom. If I'd known you were going to attack him personally when he's not even around to defend himself, I never would have brought his name into the discussion. So if/when you're reading this Tom, I apologise.



Once more, with feeling - it's not your opinions which elicited such a strong reaction in people, and it's not your frankness. It's the way in which you chose to launch an unwarranted, unprovoked personal attack which got people's backs up.

I can only hope this doesn't paint me as iwarrior's blind bodyguard. I'll call him out just like anyone else. In this particular case, however...

You do not seem to recognize that iwarrior is responding to pass transgressions against him just like you and others are responding to his against you or the board or whomever. He only called names in this and other threads I've witnessed, AFTER he'd already been attacked.

You don't have to agree that he's been disrespected, although I don't know how, but if it's wrong for HIM, then it's wrong for EVERYONE.

I've already suggested everyone quit all this name-calling and ATTEMPT to start from scratch, among other things. Maybe you all think it's a crappy idea. I think it's worth repeating.

[west3man]

There's plenty of repetition in this thread, so here's some more:

Simply put: Both sides have some very valid points. Past offenses by BOTH SIDES have not been forgotten. That's one of the reasons why some of the more callous or offensive statements from this thread were made.

Whether you agree with the above or not, for the greater good, I think it'd be best to bury the hatchet - and not in anyone's back . Does this mean no one will EVER bring up the past? No. Nor should it, I guess. But I'd suggest making sure our actions are based on what's happening in the now and that bringing up the past serves a purpose that can be achieved in no other way.

Let's talk about the easy and the tough topics without name-calling, without say EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS A LYING, CAKE-LIFE HAVING, ISOLATED-FROM-SOCIETY, CHIC-ISSUE-LOVING, ARSEHOLE... if at all possible. If we can't do that, we're doomed to end up in this situation over and over, again. I don't think most of us want that. I think this is a small price to pay for relative peace.

(Hell, how about using and recognizing qualifiers more? "Some people who..." or "most of those people THAT I'VE MET..." at least leaves someone room for a little dignity so that they can respond to the argument and not the offense.)

[SoulOnIce]

You know, I read about as much of this thread as I could before wanting to vomit.

These people don't want to take anything from you, they don't want to destroy anything you hold dear, they don't want anything to DO with you.

They just want to not be considered less than everyone else. I'm amazed some of you have the heart to stand in front of that and tell them no, especially for the endless parade of crappy reasons listed here.

It's not ABOUT you. Stay the hell out of it. You get to be closed-minded in your own home. Don't go into someone else's house and be their frickin' hall monitor. You're uncomfortable with it? WHO GIVES A SHIT? I'm uncomfortable with a hell of a lot of heterosexuals, starting with Liza Minelli, but I don't feel it's my civic duty to outlaw her.

I'm sure of one thing, and this comes from being a stone cold patriot...

You guys will lose this battle. Say what you like, history is going to whiz by you like a cheetah past a tree. People are going to look back at your fears and insecurities and shake their heads in wonder and shame. it may take a while, but change is coming and your pretend excuses are going to be exposed as the ratshit and batwings that they are.

That's my certainty.

My HOPE is that some of you will realize that neither you nor the government have the right to tell people they're not married just because they have the same goddamned PLUMBING.

These are real people. They're not tv caricatures. They don't mean to ruin your digestion. Leave them alone. You're telling them they're not good enough to be married isn't going to improve anyone's lot in life one damn jot.

Gail

A while ago Conan O'Brien made a joke saying that Jimmy Swaggart had to apologize for saying he would kill any gay man that made a pass at him. Conan said a spokeman for a gay rights group responded, "hey, we're gay, not blind."

[jimmything2681]

You know, I read about as much of this thread as I could before wanting to vomit.

These people don't want to take anything from you, they don't want to destroy anything you hold dear, they don't want anything to DO with you.

They just want to not be considered less than everyone else. I'm amazed some of you have the heart to stand in front of that and tell them no, especially for the endless parade of crappy reasons listed here.

It's not ABOUT you. Stay the hell out of it. You get to be closed-minded in your own home. Don't go into someone else's house and be their frickin' hall monitor. You're uncomfortable with it? WHO GIVES A SHIT? I'm uncomfortable with a hell of a lot of heterosexuals, starting with Liza Minelli, but I don't feel it's my civic duty to outlaw her.

I'm sure of one thing, and this comes from being a stone cold patriot...

You guys will lose this battle. Say what you like, history is going to whiz by you like a cheetah past a tree. People are going to look back at your fears and insecurities and shake their heads in wonder and shame. it may take a while, but change is coming and your pretend excuses are going to be exposed as the ratshit and batwings that they are.

That's my certainty.

My HOPE is that some of you will realize that neither you nor the government have the right to tell people they're not married just because they have the same goddamned PLUMBING.

These are real people. They're not tv caricatures. They don't mean to ruin your digestion. Leave them alone. You're telling them they're not good enough to be married isn't going to improve anyone's lot in life one damn jot.

Gail


HOO AH! Nicely put.

[the4thpip]

I do understand that Ian, I really do, but it irks me beyond reason every time racism in the South comes up and we are once again vilified for something that ended over 100 years ago.
According to my black boyfriend, racism he experiences in the South today is still much worse than in the North on average. Of course, he is gay AND black, which makes him black with a little black extra down there.

[the4thpip]

Yes, it sucks, and yes, gay couples should most certainly have the same legal rights as married couples -- but as it stands the concept of "marriage" only refers to partners of different genders. It's just the way it is, whether the gay community likes it or not.


Not in most European countries, in parts of Canada and Massachusetts. If the concept can change there, why not elsewhere? It's all in people's heads anyway: Concepts are stuff we make up. We can change them.

[the4thpip]

I'm sure of one thing, and this comes from being a stone cold patriot...

You guys will lose this battle. Say what you like, history is going to whiz by you like a cheetah past a tree. People are going to look back at your fears and insecurities and shake their heads in wonder and shame. it may take a while, but change is coming and your pretend excuses are going to be exposed as the ratshit and batwings that they are.

That's my certainty.



Gail
I agree, especially considering opinion polls I've seen on this that show how the different age groups feel on the subject. However, considering how the pendulum is swinging backwards right now, I'm worried my man and I might be in pushed up the aisle in wheelchairs by the time it finally happens.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Look,I've been in situations where I've been around nothing but guys and around nothing but women. Guys CONSTANTLY talk about who's they'd "bang" and such. Women don't do that. In fact,they hardly talk about men at all.

I've been around. You don't need a degree for that. I know it's easy to bash a regular joe like me for speaking my mind,but c'mon.

What you've seen is that women hardly talk about men or sex at all... when you or other men are around. Talk to some women here about what women talk about with other women and you'll learn a bit.

Or, actually listen sometimes to people with a wider experience base than yourself, or whom are better observers of human behavior. People don't need a degree to have an opinion on things, but there are lots of opinions that really can be better informed if one is educated about the topic - via formal education, or real-world experience. In this thread and the ALIAS one, actual, real-world girls and women - who really do know more about being female than you do, y'know? - told you the way things are, yet you insist you know better than them. And as far as you and me, I'm pretty darn sure I have the edge here in terms of both education regarding sexuality and actual experience.

You make the error of assuming what you see in your own limited range of experience is all there is.

[jimmything2681]

According to my black boyfriend, racism he experiences in the South today is still much worse than in the North on average. Of course, he is gay AND black, which makes him black with a little black extra down there.

Doesn't that make him black with you with a little extra black down there?

[west3man]

You make the error of assuming what you see in your own limited range of experience is all there is.

Y
U
P

[SoulOnIce]

According to my black boyfriend, racism he experiences in the South today is still much worse than in the North on average. Of course, he is gay AND black, which makes him black with a little black extra down there.

You are officially the Religious Right's worse nightmare :p

[Tron]

Gail, you are officially my new role model. You basically hit most of my opinion on this matter right on the mark. And the4thpip, I have to admit, I admire your boyfriend. To be black and gay in America is bad enough, but in the south, it's not a fun thing at all, so I have to give him a fist up for making it out there for as long as he has. And to the person that said all that ended about 100 years ago, you obviously know little about the matter. Racism isn't as bad as it was decades ago, thank god, but it's still bad in most places and groups nonetheless. I had a coworker in from Mississippi, who I could never, and I mean EVER, come with him to his parents or grandparent's house, or actually his neighborhood for that matter, cause chances are I wouldn't make it back. And that's just how it is in most southern towns and neighborhoods, they'll be damned if they see a nigger or fag walking down their streets, and they won't have any problem beating you down, if not lynching you or dragging you behind their truck, cause they still do shit like this today, and the cops do little to nothing about it, and usually join in and cover it all up. That's the reality today, whether you believe or not, or care.

[Cam63]

You know, I read about as much of this thread as I could before wanting to vomit.

These people don't want to take anything from you, they don't want to destroy anything you hold dear, they don't want anything to DO with you.

They just want to not be considered less than everyone else. I'm amazed some of you have the heart to stand in front of that and tell them no, especially for the endless parade of crappy reasons listed here.

It's not ABOUT you. Stay the hell out of it. You get to be closed-minded in your own home. Don't go into someone else's house and be their frickin' hall monitor. You're uncomfortable with it? WHO GIVES A SHIT? I'm uncomfortable with a hell of a lot of heterosexuals, starting with Liza Minelli, but I don't feel it's my civic duty to outlaw her.

I'm sure of one thing, and this comes from being a stone cold patriot...

You guys will lose this battle. Say what you like, history is going to whiz by you like a cheetah past a tree. People are going to look back at your fears and insecurities and shake their heads in wonder and shame. it may take a while, but change is coming and your pretend excuses are going to be exposed as the ratshit and batwings that they are.

That's my certainty.

My HOPE is that some of you will realize that neither you nor the government have the right to tell people they're not married just because they have the same goddamned PLUMBING.

These are real people. They're not tv caricatures. They don't mean to ruin your digestion. Leave them alone. You're telling them they're not good enough to be married isn't going to improve anyone's lot in life one damn jot.

Gail

Man, that's a farking good post :)

I'm glad to have people around like you, Gail.

[Corrina]

What you've seen is that women hardly talk about men or sex at all... when you or other men are around. Talk to some women here about what women talk about with other women and you'll learn a bit.


Women are way, way more graphic about sex and relationships than men.

I'm on a closed egroup, with about 15 women and one man, of various sexual orientations.

When we started talking about the first time, it was the guy who called a stop to it. He just didn't want to hear stuff that graphic about women he considered his sisters.

We were like "dude, it's just bjs and stuff."

He said, 'you guys freak me out.'

And yes, he's heterosexual.

[howyadoin]

In general,women are just not as horny as men and are interested in sex for different reasons.

Look,I've been in situations where I've been around nothing but guys and around nothing but women. Guys CONSTANTLY talk about who's they'd "bang" and such. Women don't do that. In fact,they hardly talk about men at all. Once more, with feeling: you need to stop looking at these things in such black & white terms. Just because women may not talk about sex around you, doesn't mean that they don't talk much about sex, and it certainly doesn't mean that they never talk about sex.

[howyadoin]

Well,I never said all teen girls weren't horny.You may have left out the word all, but the statement "teen girls aren't horny" doesn't mean that some are and some aren't.

Have we been arguing semantics all this time?

[iwarrior]

No you said that I should face facts because the issue of gay marriage isn't important.

Relatively speaking,it isn't.

[west3man]

iwarrior, the below has been said to you multiple times. The last couple of times, have been since your last post, so maybe you haven't seen them. Please pay attention to these words. They make a lot of sense and point to assumptions that you've been making about half the population.

Once more, with feeling: you need to stop looking at these things in such black & white terms. Just because women may not talk about sex around you, doesn't mean that they don't talk much about sex, and it certainly doesn't mean that they never talk about sex.

iwarrior, these words were said without being insulting. There's some personality in there, but not what I'd call rudeness. So, there's nothing to get in the way of you taking all of this in - nothing other than willingness. You're certainly intelligent enough to comprehend, so that's not the issue.

So, what do you think?

[howyadoin]

You guys will lose this battle. Say what you like, history is going to whiz by you like a cheetah past a tree. People are going to look back at your fears and insecurities and shake their heads in wonder and shame. it may take a while, but change is coming and your pretend excuses are going to be exposed as the ratshit and batwings that they are.

That's my certainty.

My HOPE is that some of you will realize that neither you nor the government have the right to tell people they're not married just because they have the same goddamned PLUMBING.

These are real people. They're not tv caricatures. They don't mean to ruin your digestion. Leave them alone. You're telling them they're not good enough to be married isn't going to improve anyone's lot in life one damn jot.Bravo. That was outstanding.

[iwarrior]

Gail, you are officially my new role model. You basically hit most of my opinion on this matter right on the mark. And the4thpip, I have to admit, I admire your boyfriend. To be black and gay in America is bad enough, but in the south, it's not a fun thing at all, so I have to give him a fist up for making it out there for as long as he has. And to the person that said all that ended about 100 years ago, you obviously know little about the matter. Racism isn't as bad as it was decades ago, thank god, but it's still bad in most places and groups nonetheless. I had a coworker in from Mississippi, who I could never, and I mean EVER, come with him to his parents or grandparent's house, or actually his neighborhood for that matter, cause chances are I wouldn't make it back. And that's just how it is in most southern towns and neighborhoods, they'll be damned if they see a nigger or fag walking down their streets, and they won't have any problem beating you down, if not lynching you or dragging you behind their truck, cause they still do shit like this today, and the cops do little to nothing about it, and usually join in and cover it all up. That's the reality today, whether you believe or not, or care.


I live in the North,and half the time at work I feel like I'm at a KKK meeting.

[west3man]

Relatively speaking,it isn't.

...to YOU. To other segments of the population may not think certain OTHER issues are important (even relatively speaking) - issues that I as a Black man or you as a white man or Guapo as a devastatingly handsome man might find VERY important... even life-changing.

You don't seem to grasp the effect this issue has on people and how it's not just an "issue" for them. It has to do with their real, everyday lives in a significant way.

[howyadoin]

iwarrior, the below has been said to you multiple times. The last couple of times, have been since your last post, so maybe you haven't seen them. Please pay attention to these words. They make a lot of sense and point to assumptions that you've been making about half the population.

iwarrior, these words were said without being insulting. There's some personality in there, but not what I'd call rudeness. So, there's nothing to get in the way of you taking all of this in - nothing other than willingness. You're certainly intelligent enough to comprehend, so that's not the issue.Thank you.

[iwarrior]

iwarrior, the below has been said to you multiple times. The last couple of times, have been since your last post, so maybe you haven't seen them. Please pay attention to these words. They make a lot of sense and point to assumptions that you've been making about half the population.

Ok,waitaminnit!!! I'm gettin' caught up here. :D Too many subjects in one thread...

Once more, with feeling: you need to stop looking at these things in such black & white terms. Just because women may not talk about sex around you, doesn't mean that they don't talk much about sex, and it certainly doesn't mean that they never talk about sex.

I didn't say they NEVER talk about it. I'm just basing my opinions on what I read,hear,and see. If you look at the covers of women's magazines,you'll see lots of blurbs about sex,and most of it's like,"How to please your man!",and whatnot.


Let me put it this way. Based on what I know, teen girls don't have sex for their own pleasure. Guys do that. It's a macho,self-gratifying thing. Girls have sex primarily to please boys.


But,if you say so.



iwarrior, these words were said without being insulting. There's some personality in there, but not what I'd call rudeness. So, there's nothing to get in the way of you taking all of this in - nothing other than willingness. You're certainly intelligent enough to comprehend, so that's not the issue.

I have nothing against howyadoin.

So, what do you think?

Well,he's got a point I guess.


Hey,btw westman thanks for being my bodyguard whether you want to be seen that way or not. I appreciate your support.

[iwarrior]

...to YOU. To other segments of the population may not think certain OTHER issues are important (even relatively speaking) - issues that I as a Black man or you as a white man or Guapo as a devastatingly handsome man might find VERY important... even life-changing.

You don't seem to grasp the effect this issue has on people and how it's not just an "issue" for them. It has to do with their real, everyday lives in a significant way.


But if gays are really being crushed by this,why isn't there more of a movement? Someone talked earlier about getting gay celebs involved. Where are they? I never hear anything from them about it. It's mostly heterosexuals on either side that are so worked up over it. If the banning of same-sex marriage is such a horrible crime then they all need to really educate people about this issue and get them behind it. Make people see why this is so wrong,and show them how allowing same-sex marriage will benefit society and not hurt it.

I mean,yeah,it isn't fair that gays can't marry people of the same sex. I'm not disputing that. But Jim Crow this isn't.

[Cam63]

Just a thought, iwarrior...

How many ladies ( teenage and older ) have you interviewed on this topic ?

[iwarrior]

Women are way, way more graphic about sex and relationships than men.

I'm on a closed egroup, with about 15 women and one man, of various sexual orientations.

When we started talking about the first time, it was the guy who called a stop to it. He just didn't want to hear stuff that graphic about women he considered his sisters.

We were like "dude, it's just bjs and stuff."

He said, 'you guys freak me out.'

And yes, he's heterosexual.


Ok,if you say so.

[iwarrior]

What you've seen is that women hardly talk about men or sex at all... when you or other men are around. Talk to some women here about what women talk about with other women and you'll learn a bit.

The women here are atypical to say the least.


Or, actually listen sometimes to people with a wider experience base than yourself, or whom are better observers of human behavior. People don't need a degree to have an opinion on things, but there are lots of opinions that really can be better informed if one is educated about the topic - via formal education, or real-world experience.

Well,I have the experience,but ok,you've got me on the formal education thing.



In this thread and the ALIAS one, actual, real-world girls and women - who really do know more about being female than you do, y'know? - told you the way things are, yet you insist you know better than them. And as far as you and me, I'm pretty darn sure I have the edge here in terms of both education regarding sexuality and actual experience.

I think they're exceptions. I guess I was also basing it on my experiences with women over the internet. All the other boards I post on are very male,and when women come on,they try to be flirty and such to get attention,and will try to act all hot and bothered. Like,one of the "in" things now for them is to say they're bisexual. Every other chick that posts is supposedly "bi". I guess they want guys to think they'll get a threesome for a free dinner. :rolleyes:

Maybe part of my problem is that I'm too cynical. I've been bullshitted sooo many times...


You make the error of assuming what you see in your own limited range of experience is all there is.

Well,it's based on stuff I've read too.

[iwarrior]

A while ago Conan O'Brien made a joke saying that Jimmy Swaggart had to apologize for saying he would kill any gay man that made a pass at him. Conan said a spokeman for a gay rights group responded, "hey, we're gay, not blind."


I think Jimmy Swaggart is more interested in making a buck than anything. He should send gay organizations royalties for helping to keep him in business.

[west3man]

Let me put it this way. Based on what I know, teen girls don't have sex for their own pleasure. Guys do that. It's a macho,self-gratifying thing. Girls have sex primarily to please boys.


But,if you say so.

Allrightee.

Well,he's got a point I guess.


Hey,btw westman thanks for being my bodyguard whether you want to be seen that way or not. I appreciate your support.

Heh. The operative word was "blind" (bodyguard). I am a bodyguard to pretty much anyone who needs one (as long as I can be of SOME help). I don't want to be seen as a BLIND one who just defends so-and-so because I'm against the board or because I'm buddies with them or because I've got what's been called the Cap'n Save-a-ho complex (not callin' you a ho, btw).

Under-represented or ignored valid viewp