Is All-Star Batman and Robin, The Boy Wonder canceled?

[Big Boss]

I googled to find out more for myself before posting, and the most recent thing I could find is that issues #11 and #12 were canceled and yet to be resolicited. Is that the current status of the series? IS DC planning on putting those out? Or are they just going to let the title fade into obscurity?

I can't say that I was a fan of Frank Miller's latest take on the character, but then again, it was so over the top that I was really curious as to how it would turn out in the end.

[NickFury90]

I googled to find out more for myself before posting, and the most recent thing I could find is that issues #11 and #12 were canceled and yet to be resolicited. Is that the current status of the series? IS DC planning on putting those out? Or are they just going to let the title fade into obscurity?

I can't say that I was a fan of Frank Miller's latest take on the character, but then again, it was so over the top that I was really curious as to how it would turn out in the end.

Apparently, Jim Lee/Frank Miller are doing a whole bunch of issues at once, so when they DO come out, they will come out in rapid succession.

Yeah right...and I'm a Chinese fighter pilot.

[comicsmetal]

I hope so!

[mofo]

Apparently, Jim Lee/Frank Miller are doing a whole bunch of issues at once, so when they DO come out, they will come out in rapid succession.

Yeah right...and I'm a Chinese fighter pilot.

What jet do you fly?

[gocryemokid]

I can't wait for this to continue. Its not even a great story I just like the idea of it so much and besides any bat-book drawn by Jim Lee is worth my 3-4$

[Lester C.]

The honest truth is we don't know. Jim Lee is has several projects that take priority over this book and the same is true for Frank Miller. DC refuses to give out a stright answer, because while this book sells very well it is an embarssement for them.

[Mia]

It's unlikely that this book is cancelled. It's a cash cow.
The honest truth is we don't know. Jim Lee is has several projects that take priority
Not to derail the thread but do you know what it is? I love Jim Lee's art!

[Kaos]

Hopefully.

[jerrymcl89]

I think the official story is that DC doesn't want to resume putting it out until they can have three or four issues come out in a row. When or if that might happen is anybody's guess. But until I start to see some other book with interior art by Lee come out instead, I'm going to figure the book is still somewhere on his agenda.

[APPLE]

yea we will have to wait and see.

[dumbstruck]

This series should have been cancelled after the 1st issue. A Batman travesty of epic proportions.

[APPLE]

lmao the art was good but the story um....not so much.

[T Hedge Coke]

This series should have been cancelled after the 1st issue. A Batman travesty of epic proportions.

The funny thing is, when DKR hit the stands it pretty much garnered the same reaction.

Besides, (everybody say it with me) you don't have to buy the thing.

[dumbstruck]

The funny thing is, when DKR hit the stands it pretty much garnered the same reaction.

Besides, (everybody say it with me) you don't have to buy the thing.

Deservedly so, and I don't.

[Vidocq]

FM wrote this in http://www.moebiusgraphics.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1726

Thanks to all for your curiosity regarding ASB&R--which I prefer to call ROBIN, because that who it's about.

ROBIN seems to be back on track, via Wildstorm. Jim's keeping me informed. I'm very glad to report this, since the story involves a seminal journey for Dick Grayson, and for Batman himself.

By the way, Jim's delays on the project have nothing to do a lack of diligence. He's an industrious man. Let's give his time: it'll be worth it.

FM

[TROUBLEZ]

The funny thing is, when DKR hit the stands it pretty much garnered the same reaction.

Besides, (everybody say it with me) you don't have to buy the thing.

But DKR was a good story. DKSA, Spawn/Batman, All-Star G-D Batman, not so much.

It's cool that Miller wants to do a campy parody of Batman but it was hyped up as an iconic take on Batman & Robin. It seems like Morrison did that with Superman, while Miller was doing something completely different.

[dumbstruck]

But DKR was a good story. DKSA, Spawn/Batman, All-Star G-D Batman, not so much.

It's cool that Miller wants to do a campy parody of Batman but it was hyped up as an iconic take on Batman & Robin. It seems like Morrison did that with Superman, while Miller was doing something completely different.

My mistake. I meant DKSR, not DKR.

[Gitaroo_Dude]

But DKR was a good story. DKSA, Spawn/Batman, All-Star G-D Batman, not so much.

It's cool that Miller wants to do a campy parody of Batman but it was hyped up as an iconic take on Batman & Robin. It seems like Morrison did that with Superman, while Miller was doing something completely different.

ASBAR's story is just as good as DKR.

Neither are Year One, but both are pretty great on their own merits.

[dumbstruck]

ASBAR's story is just as good as DKR.

In what universe?:tongue::confused:

[NickGuy]

ASBAR is great and so was DK2....you just werent paying attention.

If this comic is cancelled it will be greatly depressing to me.....at least, until FM finishes HTB

[Gitaroo_Dude]

In what universe?:tongue::confused:

The normal one. I guess you could call it Earth-1.

[Mia]

But DKR was a good story. DKSA, Spawn/Batman, All-Star G-D Batman, not so much.

It's cool that Miller wants to do a campy parody of Batman but it was hyped up as an iconic take on Batman & Robin. It seems like Morrison did that with Superman, while Miller was doing something completely different.

I guess they changed their mind mid-stream, and since it was raking in cash no one sought to change it or halt it. Personally, I found the book puerile and adolescent.

But apparently people love it.

To each his own.

[Karl O'Neill]

It's fun and the art is pretty.

[SMKSPY]

Can't wait for this series to return. I love that it's pure satire of the batverse.

[NickGuy]

DKR and Year One is like the ultimate awesme fanboy fanfiction.

DK2 and ASBAR is a musclebound jerk giving that same fanboy a wedgie, punching him in the gut, and stealing his girlfriend while ripping his comics.

I love it.

[nepenthes]

I just think it's great that four of the Top Ten Batman trades of all time belong to Frank Miller :cool:

[NickGuy]

hahah agreed. and if he ever finishes HTB, that will just add to his legacy. you fanboys can hate it all you want, but batman begins and ends with frank miller, no matter how hard grant morrison tries.

[comicsmetal]

I guess they changed their mind mid-stream, and since it was raking in cash no one sought to change it or halt it. Personally, I found the book puerile and adolescent.

But apparently people love it.

To each his own.

You got that right ,it still was very silly as you said it was just writen for horny Teenagers.

[comicsmetal]

hahah agreed. and if he ever finishes HTB, that will just add to his legacy. you fanboys can hate it all you want, but batman begins and ends with frank miller, no matter how hard grant morrison tries.

You are joking right,I have said he was good in the late 80 but he lost it in the early 2000s .

Sorry I take 80s frank miller over modren miller. Even Ronin was better then ASBR.

For me Paul Dini or Loeb(prior to hush) are alot better writers then Modren Frank Miller.

[nepenthes]

DK2 and ASBR are similair to Batman RIP. you have to be...special...in order to appreciate them

:wink: :rolleyes:

[Captain Jim]

ASB&R is officially on hiatus. Once Miller and Lee finish their storyline, the book will be cancelled. There's a long thread here somewhere that gives the details, but I'm on a public computer tonight and don't want to take the time to search for it.

[TROUBLEZ]

ASBAR's story is just as good as DKR.

Neither are Year One, but both are pretty great on their own merits.

ASBAR has more in common with Spawn/Batman than DKR.

[dancj]

DC refuses to give out a stright answer, because while this book sells very well it is an embarssement for them.
That's just speculation.

I imagine there are some people at DC who hate the book - just like there are outside DC. There will also be those who love it.

Personally I think it's one of the best books I've read in the last few years.

[xnef1025]

That's just speculation.

I imagine there are some people at DC who hate the book - just like there are outside DC. There will also be those who love it.

Personally I think it's one of the best books I've read in the last few years.
If it's an embarrassment I don't think it is for story reasons. I think it would be more out of professionalism as a periodical publisher. We're creeping up into UWvsH delay level. Before you know it the next issue of ASBaR could be the new BattleChasers #11.

The year 2165: CFR(Comic File Resources) News Update - Sources at Time WarnerMarvel Comics have confirmed that the cryogenically preserved heads of Jim Lee and Frank Miller have finally completed the final issues of the much delayed All Star Batman and Robin the Boy Wonder. Lee's head apologized, blaming the delay on too many other commitments in various media. Miller's head just begged to finally be allowed to die now that it was all over. Fortunatly for patient readers, Miller still has contracts to complete Holy Terror Batman and a return run in Daredevil before his head can be laid to rest. :tongue:

[mr. december]

I hope not.

[T Hedge Coke]

I think it would be more out of professionalism as a periodical publisher.

DC is a beholden to their parent company before they are publishing comics, though. If somewhere more marketable in the company is felt to take precedence, the comics, they go on the back burner and simmer.

Prompt and regular release does not mean quality. If it did, Strangehaven would suck.

[NickGuy]

ASBAR has more in common with Spawn/Batman than DKR.

thats only because youre choosing to ignore it. ASBAR is very closely associated with year one, too. Spawn/Batman is part of millers batman timeline...theres a line on he inside cover that says something along the likes of

"this book is a companion piece to the dark knight returns"

when its all said and done, millers batman timeline will go something like

Year One
Spawn/Batman
ASBAR
Holy Terror batman (? im totally guessing with this one)
DKR
DK2

[Jorriss]

Year One
Spawn/Batman
ASBAR
Holy Terror batman (? im totally guessing with this one)
DKR
DK2
It's hard to believe those are all the same Batman, mainly Year one being associated with all star.

[NickGuy]

what i liked about frank millers batman is the jumping around in timeline and setting...i mean if you think about it...Year One is set in 1980's Gotham....Spawn/Batman is set in 1990's NYC with futuristic McFarlane Tech...ASBAR is set in todays Gotham with cellphones and computers...then DKR is back in 1980s Gotham..and DK2 is set in a far off futuristic USA.

[TROUBLEZ]

thats only because youre choosing to ignore it. ASBAR is very closely associated with year one, too. Spawn/Batman is part of millers batman timeline...theres a line on he inside cover that says something along the likes of

"this book is a companion piece to the dark knight returns"



Do you really consider Spawn/Batman a companion piece to DKR?

I always thought it was a crap story not unlike the issue of Spawn he wrote.

[dumbstruck]

Do you really consider Spawn/Batman a companion piece to DKR?

I always thought it was a crap story not unlike the issue of Spawn he wrote.


It's not a matter of what we think. Frank Miller thinks it. That disclosure is on the inside front cover of Spawn/Batman.

[dumbstruck]

It's hard to believe those are all the same Batman, mainly Year one being associated with all star.

Yeah, especially considering DKR and Year One are actually, you know.....good.

[TROUBLEZ]

I think that was just sales hype to get fans and comic shops to order more.
I mean the cover even looked like DKR #1.

Same with ASBAR. "The unofficial Year Two!"
I think they should advertised it as Sin City featuring Batman.

[NickGuy]

Sin City featuring Batman.

except thats not what it is at all. :rolleyes:

[TROUBLEZ]

You are totally right. All-Star G-- Damned Batman, socking children in the face and forcing them to eat rats is totally inline with the Year One Batman that rescues homeless cats.

[NickGuy]

You are totally right. All-Star G-- Damned Batman, socking children in the face and forcing them to eat rats is totally inline with the Year One Batman that rescues homeless cats.


yes...its also inline with Spawn/batman's "punk. youre a punk", DKR's over-dramatic monolguing batman, and DK2's batman

[TROUBLEZ]

yes...its also inline with Spawn/batman's "punk. youre a punk", DKR's over-dramatic monolguing batman, and DK2's batman



So did you think Spawn/Batman was a good story?

[NickGuy]

yes. as a standalone comic it might seem weird, but when i look back at all of millers bat-work i really dig it. its like a super-dramatic buddy comedy

and cmon, how can you not lol at this?

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l48/NickGuy_2006/l_17b3a61eb7004057bf90c6665b69e1-1.jpg

[Gitaroo_Dude]

yes. as a standalone comic it might seem weird, but when i look back at all of millers bat-work i really dig it. its like a super-dramatic buddy comedy

and cmon, how can you not lol at this?

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l48/NickGuy_2006/l_17b3a61eb7004057bf90c6665b69e1-1.jpg

That's awful, and I say this as a big fan of ASBAR.

[TROUBLEZ]

Sorry. I don't find it lol material. I read it when I was 12 and didn't like it then, despite being a fan of both Spawn and DKR. But it has pretty art!

[Max Hauser]

This comic has only had ten issues in three years. I read somewhere that the series might run to 27 issues. So we have about six years to wait if this thing ends!!

I hope they finish this thing, because I really hate it when things just get cancelled.

[BloodOps]

Is All-Star Batman and Robin, The Boy Wonder canceled?


Oh god. I hope so.

[comicsmetal]

Nickguy sounds like a miller fanboy.Even thought I like Miller older work I just do not like ASBR.He has gotten too misogynistic and his writing is getting weak.

[comicsmetal]

yes. as a standalone comic it might seem weird, but when i look back at all of millers bat-work i really dig it. its like a super-dramatic buddy comedy

and cmon, how can you not lol at this?

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l48/NickGuy_2006/l_17b3a61eb7004057bf90c6665b69e1-1.jpg

Oh bloody hell I thought of buying that as I was a huge spawn fan when I was younger,but boy that looks bad.


I bet you that was done in the mid 90s and how Spawn say that funny.I highly doubt miller was look for some few laughs.

[Vidocq]

Do you really consider Spawn/Batman a companion piece to DKR?

It really is. It shows were Batman got the Tech that would one day defeat Superman, and gave a nod to the fact that the No kill rule is not a Choice for DKU's Batman... But it's the worst Batman story that Miller has ever written, not to mention the bad book of the DKU collection. Still reread it every now and then though.

[Vidocq]

thats only because youre choosing to ignore it. ASBAR is very closely associated with year one, too. Spawn/Batman is part of millers batman timeline...theres a line on he inside cover that says something along the likes of

"this book is a companion piece to the dark knight returns"

when its all said and done, millers batman timeline will go something like

Year One
Spawn/Batman
ASBAR
Holy Terror batman (? im totally guessing with this one)
DKR
DK2

It's actually

Year One
ASBAR
S/B ( Batman was more expirienced then)
DKR
DK2

Holy Terror is undecided since it's still unclear if it will feature Bats at all.

[zur en arrh]

I don't want to say "I hope so"... because I know there are people out there who enjoy the book. But I have to say that I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. It's a pretty terrible book.

[jgiannantoni05]

It's hard to believe those are all the same Batman, mainly Year one being associated with all star.

You are totally right. All-Star G-- Damned Batman, socking children in the face and forcing them to eat rats is totally inline with the Year One Batman that rescues homeless cats.

Yeah, I will never accept that All-Star Batman fits with Year One Batman. Neither Miller or DC will ever convince me of that.

The only stories in my Millerverse are Year One and DKR. Truly great works of Batman by Frank Miller. While All-Star, Spawn/Batman, and DKSA suck IMHO.

[nepenthes]

I see no problem tying ASBR to Year One. it's just the stylistic approach that's different.

the logic is that after a couple of years of being Batman he's become increasingly cocky, arrogant, secluded and basically removed from normal reality and the parameters of healthy human behavior. Makes perfect sense. and so he needs the kid to bring him back. Morrison and Miller both seem to agree that if Batman had never found Robin...he would be dead or insane by year three, he would not have survived in his mission for very long at all. He would have quickly gone over the edge and that is what's happening in the first nine issues of ASBR

This comic has only had ten issues in three years. I read somewhere that the series might run to 27 issues. So we have about six years to wait if this thing ends!!

I hope they finish this thing, because I really hate it when things just get cancelled.

ha it's almost four years now. Issue one was released a couple of months after Batman Begins :rolleyes:

[Gitaroo_Dude]

I see no problem tying ASBR to Year One. it's just the stylistic approach that's different.

the logic is that after a couple of years of being Batman he's become increasingly cocky, arrogant, secluded and basically removed from normal reality and the parameters of healthy human behavior. Makes perfect sense. and so he needs the kid to bring him back. Morrison and Miller both seem to agree that if Batman had never found Robin...he would be dead or insane by year three, he not have survived in his mission for very long at all. He would have quickly gone over the edge and that is what's happening in the first nine issues of ASBR



ha it's almost four years now. Issue one was released a couple of months after Batman Begins :rolleyes:

Thank you.

People seem to have only read the first 2 or 3 issues and then said "This sucks!" and gave up. Which totally ignores that over the course of the first 9 issues Robin saves Bruce from himself. I'm starting to think no one read the end of Issue 9.

[dumbstruck]

Thank you.

People seem to have only read the first 2 or 3 issues and then said "This sucks!" and gave up. Which totally ignores that over the course of the first 9 issues Robin saves Bruce from himself. I'm starting to think no one read the end of Issue 9.

Pretty sorry writing if you have to suffer through 9 issues before you "get it". That's expecting a lot from consumers.

[gocryemokid]

I don't think that's what he meant at all ^^

What he was trying to say I think is that people shouldn't be so critical of a series they only read like 20% of. If you read it all and didn't like it well what are you gunna do you just don't like and to each his (or her of course) own.

But to read 2 issues and condemn it to hell is a pretty unfair notion I think and not an accurate criticism. I'm a fan of the book, not diehard or anything but curious enough to want to get more issues (Jim Lee hello anything he draws Batman is automatic for me anyway lol) but even I could agree with the negative criticism from those would read the 10 issues and have something negative to say.

I guess what I'm saying and I think what the other guy was saying is kinda like "Don't judge a book by its first 2 issues" you know? Read it all then critique it or keep your ill-known and incomplete criticisms to yourself (I don't mean to sound rude there at all sorry if it comes out that way)

[dumbstruck]

I don't think that's what he meant at all ^^

What he was trying to say I think is that people shouldn't be so critical of a series they only read like 20% of. If you read it all and didn't like it well what are you gunna do you just don't like and to each his (or her of course) own.

But to read 2 issues and condemn it to hell is a pretty unfair notion I think and not an accurate criticism. I'm a fan of the book, not diehard or anything but curious enough to want to get more issues (Jim Lee hello anything he draws Batman is automatic for me anyway lol) but even I could agree with the negative criticism from those would read the 10 issues and have something negative to say.

I guess what I'm saying and I think what the other guy was saying is kinda like "Don't judge a book by its first 2 issues" you know? Read it all then critique it or keep your ill-known and incomplete criticisms to yourself (I don't mean to sound rude there at all sorry if it comes out that way)

I get what you're saying and it's a great sentiment, but it's unrealistic. So people who read the first three or four issues, hated it and dropped it are not allowed to complain about it? You're only allowed to complain if you've dropped your 50 bucks to buy the first 11 issues and still hate it? People aren't going to keep buying it if they hate it. When it comes to comics, you have to judge it within the first couple of issues. It costs too much to not judge it. It's dumb to expect people to keep buying it if they hate it from the beginning.

[NickGuy]

Nickguy sounds like a miller fanboy.

i totally am, and i make no apologies for it :smile:
It's actually

Year One
ASBAR
S/B ( Batman was more expirienced then)
DKR
DK2

Holy Terror is undecided since it's still unclear if it will feature Bats at all.

the reason i put S/B first is because he doesnt have robin yet.

Thank you.

People seem to have only read the first 2 or 3 issues and then said "This sucks!" and gave up. Which totally ignores that over the course of the first 9 issues Robin saves Bruce from himself. I'm starting to think no one read the end of Issue 9.

yeah, issue 9 is really the turning point in the series. a sobering moment for bats. i like how in issue 2 he says "theres no time for grief" but at issue 9 he realizes how wrong he was. thats why i really want to see where it heads from here. issue 10 was great.

You can tell why robin is going to grow up to hate bats in DK2, too.

Pretty sorry writing if you have to suffer through 9 issues before you "get it". That's expecting a lot from consumers.

actually, i personally thought the series was good from the beginning. I mean, if you REALLY have a problem with the early issues, just skip 2 and 3. you dont really miss much. the series picks up steam after issue 4

[Gitaroo_Dude]

Pretty sorry writing if you have to suffer through 9 issues before you "get it". That's expecting a lot from consumers.

Actually, while I appreciate Gocrymorekids' post, that's not what I meant.

It was more along the lines of "This series isn't just about a psychotic Batman, it's about Robin redeeming one." People that dismiss it as such only do so because they never read the series past the first 3-4 issues.

Obviously, if you dislike a book, drop it right away, don't stick with it.

But I enjoyed every moment of the first 9 in trade, and issue 10 too.

I do think DKR and ASBAR easily work together in the same universe. Both are absolutely nuts. Year One is the only book I have a problem with fitting Miller's timeline. It's too normal and conventional.

[dumbstruck]

Actually, while I appreciate Gocrymorekids' post, that's not what I meant.

It was more along the lines of "This series isn't just about a psychotic Batman, it's about Robin redeeming one." People that dismiss it as such only do so because they never read the series past the first 3-4 issues.

Obviously, if you dislike a book, drop it right away, don't stick with it.

But I enjoyed every moment of the first 9 in trade, and issue 10 too.

I do think DKR and ASBAR easily work together in the same universe. Both are absolutely nuts. Year One is the only book I have a problem with fitting Miller's timeline. It's too normal and conventional.

And that's all well and good, but when you're first 4 issues don't do anything but turn away thousands of potential readers, that's not good storytelling. Again, people shouldn't have to wade through 9 issues to really start to get what the story is about. I think everyone was counting on Jim Lee's art to carry the book until Miller got around to actually telling his story. And to some extent, it seems that's exactly what happened.

[Jorriss]

So I've read all 10 issues myself and I still hate it.

I still dislike the characterizations but mainly I find it hard to read because he reuses phrases so much.

[NickGuy]

So I've read all 10 issues myself and I still hate it.

I still dislike the characterizations but mainly I find it hard to read because he reuses phrases so much.

yeah, thats something he does alot, so i can see people not liking that. personally i think its awesome, and its nothing new from miller. ASBAR isnt nowhere near soaked with drama as much as 300 was.

[gocryemokid]

I'm not telling anyone to go out and buy a book they don't like. All I'm saying is don't act like you know everything about it (not saying you do at all just making a point) and bad mouth it left and right when you don't know the whole story.

A more appropriate response for someone who read a few and stopped there would be like oh I only read a few issues and they sucked - that'd be fine cause that's based on what you read. I'm just saying don't read those issues and be like rarr! Asbar sucks! I hope it never hits shelves again because I don't want it's suckingness infecting my good books that are in the area! (Seriously even if you don't like it why would you say I hope it never comes back out? Just don't buy it. Duh.)

Also please don't take this as a personal attack i am not saying you do these things just elaborating on my point to (hopefully) make more sense.

[dumbstruck]

I'm not telling anyone to go out and buy a book they don't like. All I'm saying is don't act like you know everything about it (not saying you do at all just making a point) and bad mouth it left and right when you don't know the whole story.

A more appropriate response for someone who read a few and stopped there would be like oh I only read a few issues and they sucked - that'd be fine cause that's based on what you read. I'm just saying don't read those issues and be like rarr! Asbar sucks! I hope it never hits shelves again because I don't want it's suckingness infecting my good books that are in the area! (Seriously even if you don't like it why would you say I hope it never comes back out? Just don't buy it. Duh.)

Also please don't take this as a personal attack i am not saying you do these things just elaborating on my point to (hopefully) make more sense.

I absolutely get what you're saying. And in extreme cases like your example, I'd agree. The thing is the people who hate ASBAR, hate it with a passion. And that is due to the first 3-5 issues. My response to that is those 3-5 issues shouldn't have been that horrible. That's a mixture for losing readers if ever there was one. Miller spent too long getting to the root of his story and he did nothing but piss people off. Myself included. The first three issues were Dick and Bruce driving around in the Batmobile running policecars of the road. All the while hurling insults at Dick. Oh, and we had Black Canary beating a bunch of guys up for looking at her the wrong way.

Miller was trying to write a commentary on Batman. If this had been a lecture, it's like his commentary didn't start until an hour into it. By then, he's lost all but the die hard fanboys. As I said, I think the only thing that kept so many people with this book was Jim Lee. I truly believe if this book had a lesser artist, it would have been cancelled long ago. The story may be coming together now, but ten issues is too long to do that, especially when it's a finite series.

[gocryemokid]

Perfectly acceptable critique. I'll even go as far as agreeing with you with the Black Canary stuff (skip through it everytime I re-read it..)

If you feel that way based on those issues that's perfectly fine, for those who do the opposite (especially if you say you hate it enough to never want to even see it on the shelves, that's just stubbornly ignorant regardless of hatrd towards it, there's no reason to wish others can't enjoy what you can't.) Are not being fair.

[dumbstruck]

Perfectly acceptable critique. I'll even go as far as agreeing with you with the Black Canary stuff (skip through it everytime I re-read it..)

If you feel that way based on those issues that's perfectly fine, for those who do the opposite (especially if you say you hate it enough to never want to even see it on the shelves, that's just stubbornly ignorant regardless of hatrd towards it, there's no reason to wish others can't enjoy what you can't.) Are not being fair.

Ask me what I think of American Idol and I'll tell you it should never be on TV again, but that doesn't stop a large portion of the population from watching it.

[NickGuy]

I hope it never hits shelves again because I don't want it's suckingness infecting my good books that are in the area! (Seriously even if you don't like it why would you say I hope it never comes back out? Just don't buy it. Duh.)


ive neve runderstood this either. why would you want less comic books out there and more artists out of jobs? :confused:

[TROUBLEZ]

1) Miller and Lee are gonna be okay if there comic gets cancelled.

2) It hurts the market when you have a comic come out this sporadically.

3) I'd rather have Jim Lee on a book with a good story, but not if takes him 1 year to produce an issue. Human life is created and born in less time than it takes for an issue of All-Star Batman to come out.

[NickGuy]

i meant comics in general in my post lol

[TROUBLEZ]

I think that, even thought the market is pretty small right now, the big 2 are oversaturating the market.

I don't read people clamoring for a Red Tornado series or the need for 10+ Bat related titles a month.

It's the 90s all over again. Back then there was alot of aritsts who probably shouldn't have been drawing comics as well as writers (much of the early Image stuff like Brigade, Youngblood etc).

Now we have better artists and writers but the downside is they can't even produce a monthly comic on time, or are simply doing their version of Lex Vs Superman.

In fact, my only beefs with ASBAR is the intial marketing as an "Iconic portrayal", the lack of a mature readers label, and the careless attitude in regards to deadlines.

[Hair]

Is the Batman/Spawn book by Miller a staple-bound magazine with ads or a square-bound DC "prestige" treatment with text/title on the spine and no ads? Silly question, but it matters to me.

I think ASBAR is Miller's best work on Batman, and possibly the best-crafted Batman book period, at least in regards to the Batman/Robin relationship and the humanity behind the characters. It is deeply layered, powerful, silly, and funny. I do not think Miller wrote it as a crowd pleaser. I have read the HC several times and get something new from it each time. I really like seeing a misguided Bruce try to do the right thing. I love seeing Bruce try to be a good surrogate father, but having to learn as he goes since he really has no idea what he is doing (due to his childhood). The eventual emotion shown by Bruce is worth the build up.

By the way guys, Miller is constantly poking fun at himself in this run. I think it is so funny when someone rips on ASBAR and/or Miller for the repeated phrases. The joke is on them.

To each his own I guess.

C'mon... 7 page Batcave fold-out!!!

[Jorriss]

By the way guys, Miller is constantly poking fun at himself in this run. I think it is so funny when someone rips on ASBAR and/or Miller for the repeated phrases. The joke is on them.

Yeah, because clearly if you dislike it means you just didn't get what Miller was doing :rolleyes:

[Hair]

That is not what I said. Please read BEFORE responding, thanks.

I said the people that don't get it, well, don't get it. Easy, right?

If someone gets what Miller is trying to do, and just doesn't like it, that is fine. Hence, "to each his own". Hence the "crowd pleaser" remark. Remember?

A lot of people claim ASBAR is this, or that, or sucks and cannot explain why. Sometimes they point to something Miller did on purpose as if he screwed up. It goes over a lot of heads. But a lot of people just honestly do not like the book. I never said they are wrong, or missing the point. http://forums.comicbookresources.com/images/smilies/original/rolleyes.gif

[Jorriss]

That is not what I said. Please read BEFORE responding, thanks.


I did read it, and it gave the impression you think those who don't like the constant double talk merely don't understand he's poking fun at myself some. Mainly with 'By the way guys' - which seems like 'here im informing you of what you missed,' and 'The joke is on them' - which is like jokes on them because they don't get it.

So whether it's what you meant or not, it's what you gave the impression of.

[Hair]

Hmmm, not really. Since I specifically said the joke was on the people that didn't get the point of the over-the-top repeated Millerisms, (not referencing the ones that simply didn't like it). Big difference. If you already knew Miller was poking fun at himself, then obviously the following statement wasn't about you, right?

[Ullar]

Wait, isn't this book only 12 issues? If so, then it is bad writing to not reveal the point of the story until issue 9.

[Jorriss]

Hmmm, not really. Since I specifically said the joke was on the people that didn't get the point of the over-the-top repeated Millerisms, not the ones that simply didn't like it. Big difference.
Ohhhhh, I copied that part because I was referring to the over-the-top repeated Millerisms only. Originally I was saying it made it sound like you were saying that if you disliked the 'Millerisms' you must not have understood what he was going for. Since I'm one of them who does not like those, regardless of it's intention, it just makes a muddled read.

[Hair]

Ohhhhh, I copied that part because I was referring to the over-the-top repeated Millerisms only. Since I'm one of them who does not like those, regardless of it's intention, it just makes a muddled read.
I think the book would be better without them as well, but I did find them funny the first time I read it. I just think it is funny how many people don't understand why they are there (humor versus bat-ass-ness). I think Miller's style is often times comical when he is trying to be serious, or gritty. I used to not be a Miller fan for that reason. Then he tries to make fun of his style and people think it is over-the-top stylistically, when it is actually satire. They are missing the point. But getting the joke and thinking it simply distracting from the story is a different issue, and that happens to be where I fall as well.

Sorry if my repeated edits were confusing.

Uller- No, it's not. The point is often times saved for the last sentence in the world's best stories. As long as the build up is enjoyable, it's not bad writing or story telling. Now, whether it is enjoyable or not (or good or bad writing) is up to you, and a matter of opinion.

[Vidocq]

Wait, isn't this book only 12 issues? If so, then it is bad writing to not reveal the point of the story until issue 9.

Jim Lee said it's 22 issues and I think FM said 17 issues. ASS only lasted 12 because FQ wanted to move on with other projects but, according to Morrison, it could've lasted much longer.

[Vidocq]

i totally am, and i make no apologies for it :smile:

Ditto :biggrin:

the reason i put S/B first is because he doesnt have robin yet.

I usually put it later because The Bat coustume design (with the yellow Bat-simbol), Batman is a recognized figure of the Law (Notice the Policemen and Fans around when Margaret Love calls him with the Batsignal) outside of Gotham City, that responds to the Batsignal and Alfred is seen much older and with higher tolerance to his Boss' hoby.


I do think DKR and ASBAR easily work together in the same universe. Both are absolutely nuts. Year One is the only book I have a problem with fitting Miller's timeline. It's too normal and conventional.

In issue 10, Gordon is exactly the same as he was in Year One, more cynic than he was before but still the same guy. That tells us that the world didn't change from YO to ASBAR, just Batman did. Also in the same issue Batman recounts how, to prove to himself that he didn't need Bruce Wayne, lived in the sewers for months being Batman 24/7 (Eating Rats of course, they are delicacy in Gotham) until Selina snapped him out of it. That obviously had repercussions.

[NickGuy]

yeah, i love frank miller, unapologetically. Ive read pretty much every interview of his that i can get my hands on, EISNER/MILLER is a great book, as is the comics journal's collection of their mille rinterviews. i just wish he had a blog he kept up on, but hes too busy with hollywood i guess :biggrin:

[Morality Games]

My opinion?

My father was Frank Miller, and a fiend. One day he goes off writing ASBAR, crazzieerrr than usual. Mommy gets DKR and Year One to defend herself. He doesn't like that. Not. One. Bit.

Anyway, the good Year One and DKR did for Batman and maybe even DC/Comic book industry is impervious to any of Frank Miller's other failures. Besides, who knows? Maybe someday he'll get good again.

[mofo]

I actually liked the first 9 issues....but then issue 10 came out and slapped me so hard across the face i did a backflip

seriously....Mr. Miller...if you're reading this:

Good: "It was a stormy night"

Better: "It was a a gloomy and stormy night... ripe for criminal activity"

****-NO-WRONG: "It was a gloomy, dark, morbid, pathetic night. The criminal scum of the earth, murderes, sexual deviants and rapists will be out in full flock before people finish their desserts and cheesecake. They sometimes eat too much cheesecake. Heck, if they stopped eating cheesecake they might even be able to protect themselves from the aforementioned criminals, delinquents, black and chinese people, women with jobs and rabid dogs. But....this night is so damn dark the fatsos might not even leave the house, which is good for me I guess. But then I won't be able to protect them from harm. Hopefully they'll be blind so that they can't see how dark it is. Holy shit the sky is dark.... Where the hell is the moon? Maybe I can use a floodlight to brighten up the darkness.... But then I won't be able too BLAHBLAHBLAH"

Seriously Frank....SHUT THE **** UP

[Lew Moxon]

I actually liked the first 9 issues....but then issue 10 came out and slapped me so hard across the face i did a backflip

seriously....Mr. Miller...if you're reading this:

Good: "It was a stormy night"

Better: "It was a a gloomy and stormy night... ripe for criminal activity"

*****-NO-WRONG: "It was a gloomy, dark, morbid, pathetic night. The criminal scum of the earth, murderes, sexual deviants and rapists will be out in full flock before people finish their desserts and cheesecake. They sometimes eat too much cheesecake. Heck, if they stopped eating cheesecake they might even be able to protect themselves from the aforementioned criminals, delinquents, black and chinese people, women with jobs and rabid dogs. But....this night is so damn dark the fatsos might not even leave the house, which is good for me I guess. But then I won't be able to protect them from harm. Hopefully they'll be blind so that they can't see how dark it is. Holy shit the sky is dark.... Where the hell is the moon? Maybe I can use a floodlight to brighten up the darkness.... But then I won't be able too BLAHBLAHBLAH"

Seriously Frank....SHUT THE **** UP


I found that fake Miller paragraph hilarious. I really need to read All Star, because anything this bad, or at the very least controversial simply begs to be read.

[dancj]

And that's all well and good, but when you're first 4 issues don't do anything but turn away thousands of potential readers, that's not good storytelling.
Good thing that's not what happened. I'm sure they did turn away thousands of potential readers, but they also entertained thousands of other readers.

[dumbstruck]

Good thing that's not what happened. I'm sure they did turn away thousands of potential readers, but they also entertained thousands of other readers.

Good thing you didn't read the rest of my post. Otherwise you might have realized I expanded on this.:rolleyes:

[gocryemokid]

@Lew Moxon

I actually bought the HC and #10 BECAUSE of all the criticism about it. I mean you have Jim Lee and Frank Miller, arguably two of the best on the biz, and everyone left and right is bashing their effort together. I just said to myself no way it could be that bad so I had to get it.

I guess publicity IS publicity be it positive or negative.

It turned out okay.. Not as bad as people say I think but nothing spectacular, though I am interested in following whatever they plan on doing with it (Once again partially just because of the controversy surrounding it).

[dancj]

Good thing you didn't read the rest of my post. Otherwise you might have realized I expanded on this.:rolleyes:
None of your expansion contradicted your first sentence and your first sentence is still incorrect.

[dumbstruck]

None of your expansion contradicted your first sentence and your first sentence is still incorrect.

:rolleyes:

Never said it contradicted. But it does provide context for that first sentence. You're ignoring the context and reacting to the first sentence, which you disagree with. Read it again, and when you're ready to not be snarky, then we'll talk.

[dancj]

I'm not the one being snarky.

[NickGuy]

ASBAR rocks

[comicsmetal]

ASBAR rocks

:rolleyes: Only you a miller fanboy will say that.

[Gitaroo_Dude]

:rolleyes: Only you a miller fanboy will say that.

I'm no Miller fanboy, and I can confirm that ASBAR does indeed rock.

[dancj]

Neither am I. I didn't like Big guy and Rusty the Boy Robot, Tales to Offend, Sin City: Family Values or Martha Washington Dies and I thought 300 was merely okay.

ASBARTBW on the other hand is great

[NickGuy]

:rolleyes: Only you an EXTREME miller fanboy will say that.


fixed.:biggrin:

[Legato]

:rolleyes: Only you a miller fanboy will say that.

Well excuse him for having a opinion of his own. Just because he doesn't follow the majority that dislikes the comic doesn't make him a miller fanboy


I enjoyed All Star Batman as a parody of the Batman comics.

[NickGuy]

i actually am a miller fanboy though, haha.

[lead sharp]

The book is cack handed and it's frequency is deplorable.

Lee and Miller where hired to do a job, they aren't doing it. If they have other projects that pay more then flat out ditch this rather than string it along.

Anyone remember when Jim Lee helped start up Image? Frequency problems.

Anyone remember when Miller could write a book that wasn't hard boiled?

Me neither.

Usually writers and artists have a style all their own that they are popular for, but usually they have some diversity they show some evolution in their work. Miller has purified the noir formula and applied it to everything he does thinking that people will eat it up. He's wrong, The Spirit proved that.

There was a time he wrote crime fiction as an attack on censorship and DKR was the study of icons in the media and what they mean to the world, Sin City at its hight was a beautifully distilled crime drama that explored comics as a medium that could tell any story.

Much like Grant Morrison he's running on fumes and fame but he's not half as creative and frankly he's dieing on his arse.

[T Hedge Coke]

Lee and Miller where hired to do a job, they aren't doing it. If they have other projects that pay more then flat out ditch this rather than string it along.

Actually, they've pretty much fulfilled their duty to the hiring company, it's just that working on other projects for said company (videogames, et cetera) was felt to be of more importance than an out-of-continuity specialty comic.

You may care more about the comic. You may, even as you wish it wasn't published anymore. But none of the people involved in All-Star Bats and R owe you a thing, unless you, y'know, lent them money at some point. Buyer beware, and if you aren't buying, why do you even care if it comes out regularly or not?

[TROUBLEZ]

I was actually going to buy Gotham Sirens but after reading this, I remember how much DC values it's readership.

I guess with DC sales averaging 30k they can afford to be unprofessional.

[AJM]

I just had a flick through the Joker issue of ASBAR... and it truly is dreadful. The dialogue in this series has to be some of the worst in comics history - cliched, contrived, completely unnatural. Even for a Batman comic.

And the way it's WRITTEN. With all the EMPHASIS in CAPITALS. It's really IRRITATING.

And am i the only one who finds that blonde with the massive tits covered in swastikas offensive? Although i suppose that she's perfectly indicative of the sad, puerile sensationalism of this tawdry turd of a comic.

What's that i hear you say? I just don't get it? It's actually a multi-layered critique of the comics medium itself, not to mention a debate on the psychological profile of Batman? Absoloute f***ing bollocks. It's an infantile, idiotic, misogynist exercise in shock written by and for little boys who think that calling Batgirl a c*** is edgy. A swear-word - oh my!

This is exactly the sort of macho men's club bullshit that gives comics a bad name. It should be canceled.

[lead sharp]

You may care more about the comic. You may, even as you wish it wasn't published anymore. But none of the people involved in All-Star Bats and R owe you a thing, unless you, y'know, lent them money at some point. Buyer beware, and if you aren't buying, why do you even care if it comes out regularly or not?

I never said they owe me anything.

But now that you mention it.

You often find a lot of good comics (and indeed any media) come from people who say 'I think we owe it to the readers to do a good comic' or words to that effect often involving the word 'owe'.

And they kind of do.

We buy their work, we pay their wages, they do owe us. But only in terms of keeping us interested in their work and thus maintaining a quality we've come to expect from them.

If they want to squat over a word processor and curl off a comic like ASBAR then we 'owe' them the right to say no Mister Miller what you've actually done there is a turd.

Oh and a monthly comic should at least have a go at being monthly, if they can't do it drop it.

[Vidocq]

And am i the only one who finds that blonde with the massive tits covered in swastikas offensive? Although i suppose that she's perfectly indicative of the sad, puerile sensationalism of this tawdry turd of a comic.
.

Have you read DKR?

If so, HOW COME NO ONE REMEMBERS BRUNO!? You'd think that she would be hard to forget.

What's that i hear you say? I just don't get it? It's actually a multi-layered critique of the comics medium itself, not to mention a debate on the psychological profile of Batman? Absoloute f***ing bollocks. It's an infantile, idiotic, misogynist exercise in shock written by and for little boys who think that calling Batgirl a c*** is edgy. A swear-word - oh my!

This is exactly the sort of macho men's club bullshit that gives comics a bad name. It should be canceled.

Why take it so Seriously? Can't you just laugh/ignore and get over your bleeding heart?

[NickGuy]

And am i the only one who finds that blonde with the massive tits covered in swastikas offensive? Although i suppose that she's perfectly indicative of the sad, puerile sensationalism of this tawdry turd of a comic.

Have you read DKR?

If so, HOW COME NO ONE REMEMBERS BRUNO!? You'd think that she would be hard to forget.




freaking EXACTLY.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l48/NickGuy_2006/Scan0002-20.jpg

[AJM]

Have you read DKR?

If so, HOW COME NO ONE REMEMBERS BRUNO!? You'd think that she would be hard to forget.

Yes, i have, and i didn't care for her then either. Nor do i enjoy Miller's liberal use of the swastika in Sin City.

Why take it so Seriously? Can't you just laugh/ignore and get over your bleeding heart?

Sorry, i didn't realise Nazi symbolism and misogyny were supposed to be funny. I obviously have no sense of humour - how embarrassing!

Bleeding heart? I think it's called being a grown-up.

[NickGuy]

you are the only one who finds it offensive.

[TROUBLEZ]

I was happy to see a DKR reference with Bruno in the Joker issue of A*S Batman.
But so far, All-Star contradicts his own previous Batman writings. Combined with the so-called "parody," I think it's Miller trying to be edgy but being sloppy about it. In DKR the "stretch marks" comment implied that the swatsika body work was done fairly recently. In DKR Batman remembers that Dick called the car "The Batmobile."
I

Also, Miller's swatsika fetish is weird. So far I've seen it in Sin City, DKR, All-Star Batman and in The Spirit movie.

[TROUBLEZ]

you are the only one who finds it offensive.

I find almost all of All-Star offensive on a variety of levels. I don't find the swatsikas offensive however, I find it more of a juvenile attempt to be edgy.

[nepenthes]

I think it's pretty weird that someone can be offended by a comic book.

[lead sharp]

You've never read Arsenic Lullaby.

[comicsmetal]

I just had a flick through the Joker issue of ASBAR... and it truly is dreadful. The dialogue in this series has to be some of the worst in comics history - cliched, contrived, completely unnatural. Even for a Batman comic.

And the way it's WRITTEN. With all the EMPHASIS in CAPITALS. It's really IRRITATING.

And am i the only one who finds that blonde with the massive tits covered in swastikas offensive? Although i suppose that she's perfectly indicative of the sad, puerile sensationalism of this tawdry turd of a comic.

What's that i hear you say? I just don't get it? It's actually a multi-layered critique of the comics medium itself, not to mention a debate on the psychological profile of Batman? Absoloute f***ing bollocks. It's an infantile, idiotic, misogynist exercise in shock written by and for little boys who think that calling Batgirl a c*** is edgy. A swear-word - oh my!

This is exactly the sort of macho men's club bullshit that gives comics a bad name. It should be canceled.

Hear ,Hear.Man , I did enjoy DKR and Ronin and Sin City but now it just seams dumb while looking at ASBR.

[Hair]

I just had a flick through the Joker issue of ASBAR... and it truly is dreadful. The dialogue in this series has to be some of the worst in comics history - cliched, contrived, completely unnatural. Even for a Batman comic.

And the way it's WRITTEN. With all the EMPHASIS in CAPITALS. It's really IRRITATING.

And am i the only one who finds that blonde with the massive tits covered in swastikas offensive? Although i suppose that she's perfectly indicative of the sad, puerile sensationalism of this tawdry turd of a comic.

What's that i hear you say? I just don't get it? It's actually a multi-layered critique of the comics medium itself, not to mention a debate on the psychological profile of Batman? Absoloute f***ing bollocks. It's an infantile, idiotic, misogynist exercise in shock written by and for little boys who think that calling Batgirl a c*** is edgy. A swear-word - oh my!

This is exactly the sort of macho men's club bullshit that gives comics a bad name. It should be canceled.

You had a "flick" through one issue, and you think you "get it"?... You really believe that any layers or meanings that other people see (including in issues you haven't even read, or allusions to past books you haven't even read) must be lies? Sounds a bit arrogant. "Someone sees something in this art I cannot see... must be the fault of the art itself, not me!"

ASBAR is actually really anti-macho men's club BS. The tough guy attitude and lingo is used as a front for several characters, but you also see those fronts and egos broken down... one in particular, Batman. Batman's arrested development doesn't mean the book is for juvenile minds, it means it is for minds mature enough to see the signs and causes of arrested development and find such characters interesting. Read that last sentence carefully; I am not saying anyone who dislikes ASBAR is not mature.

You seem to be disposed to dislike the book before giving it a chance. Have you liked any of Miller's past work? If you are offended easily, he probably isn't going to be 'for you'.

BTW, the Joker issue was pretty weak compared to the other storylines going on, IMO at least, and as far as I have read, not much has been done with the Joker yet. I really didn't care for the portrayal of the Joker (visually or in terms of characterization). It is the Batman/Robin relationship which makes the book, the rest of it is just humorous/fun/whimsical for me.

[TROUBLEZ]

You seem to be disposed to dislike the book before giving it a chance. Have you liked any of Miller's past work? If you are offended easily, he probably isn't going to be 'for you'.

BTW, the Joker issue was pretty weak compared to the other storylines going on, IMO at least, and as far as I have read, not much has been done with the Joker yet. I really didn't care for the portrayal of the Joker (visually or in terms of characterization). It is the Batman/Robin relationship which makes the book, the rest of it is just humorous/fun/whimsical for me.


I think what hurts the book is that it's already a bi-monthly book, and yet the pace of the story is very slow and padded in parts.

It's not fun, for me, to buy a book called All-Star Batman & ROBIN, and have to wait a year or more for ROBIN to actually appear in costume.

[dancj]

Also, Miller's swatsika fetish is weird. So far I've seen it in Sin City, DKR, All-Star Batman and in The Spirit movie.
It's in Ronin as well

[nepenthes]

Miller's swatsika fetish is weird. So far I've seen it in Sin City, DKR, All-Star Batman and in The Spirit movie.

It's in Ronin as well

Fascism is major undercurrent in alot of Millers books. The heroes are often as facist as the villains, maybe Miller uses the swastikas to bring that sub-cognitively to attention. It's simplisitc and shallow maybe, yes, but effective and valid I think.

[AJM]

You had a "flick" through one issue, and you think you "get it"?... You really believe that any layers or meanings that other people see (including in issues you haven't even read, or allusions to past books you haven't even read) must be lies? Sounds a bit arrogant. "Someone sees something in this art I cannot see... must be the fault of the art itself, not me!"

ASBAR is actually really anti-macho men's club BS. The tough guy attitude and lingo is used as a front for several characters, but you also see those fronts and egos broken down... one in particular, Batman. Batman's arrested development doesn't mean the book is for juvenile minds, it means it is for minds mature enough to see the signs and causes of arrested development and find such characters interesting. Read that last sentence carefully; I am not saying anyone who dislikes ASBAR is not mature.

You seem to be disposed to dislike the book before giving it a chance. Have you liked any of Miller's past work? If you are offended easily, he probably isn't going to be 'for you'.

BTW, the Joker issue was pretty weak compared to the other storylines going on, IMO at least, and as far as I have read, not much has been done with the Joker yet. I really didn't care for the portrayal of the Joker (visually or in terms of characterization). It is the Batman/Robin relationship which makes the book, the rest of it is just humorous/fun/whimsical for me.

I've read them all - i had a "flick" through the Joker issue because it was close to hand - and i think that Batman: Year One is one of the best comics ever. But ASBAR is the work of a writer in love with himself - someone's pouring honey in Miller's ear and it reeks of self-referential egotism while displaying an innate misunderstanding of the characters involved - and i say that as a virtually religious fan of Year One.

ASBAR is actually really anti-macho men's club BS. The tough guy attitude and lingo is used as a front for several characters, but you also see those fronts and egos broken down... one in particular, Batman. Batman's arrested development doesn't mean the book is for juvenile minds, it means it is for minds mature enough to see the signs and causes of arrested development and find such characters interesting. Read that last sentence carefully; I am not saying anyone who dislikes ASBAR is not mature.

I admire your way with words, but you're talking nonsense. There's nothing mature about ASBAR, it's a pathetic, shallow attempt at sensationalism and no amount of clever talk can whitewash its jejune heart.

[Sn4tcH]

I admire your way with words, but you're talking nonsense. There's nothing mature about ASBAR, it's a pathetic, shallow attempt at sensationalism and no amount of clever talk can whitewash its jejune heart.

Not to mention, if this is some "deep" attempt to show Batman being in a state of arrested development, it's a poor one. The idea has been presented before in much less blunt a way. Miller is hitting us over the head with "Batman's a MAN CHILD". Plus when reading a Miller book, the anti-machismo message is almost expected. It's in Sin City and it's in 300, it's like a signature.

There is no subtlety in this book.

[AJM]

There is no subtlety in this book.

Absolutely. Those who find 'levels' are grasping at imaginary straws.

[Gitaroo_Dude]

Absolutely. Those who find 'levels' are grasping at imaginary straws.

Not really. It's all about constructive interpretation.

[AJM]

Not really. It's all about constructive interpretation.

That sounds impressive, but it doesn't really mean anything. Please go ahead and constructively interpret...

[Gitaroo_Dude]

That sounds impressive, but it doesn't really mean anything. Please go ahead and constructively interpret...

It means everything. Reading is a subjective experience in terms of what I get out of it. Authorial intent is secondary to how I interpret the story. If I read layers into the book, well then there's nothing wrong with that.

[NickGuy]

Absolutely. Those who find 'levels' are grasping at imaginary straws.

isnt art whatever you make of it? if i see something in it, then whos to tell me its not there?

im sure this guy (http://geoffklock.blogspot.com/2008/09/comics-out-september-24-2008-all-star.html#links) is just grasping at straws. :rolleyes:

[AJM]

It means everything. Reading is a subjective experience in terms of what I get out of it. Authorial intent is secondary to how I interpret the story. If I read layers into the book, well then there's nothing wrong with that.

So what you're basically saying is that you can intellectualise any old shit? And if authorial intent is secondary to the experience, how can we ever know when art is effective?

[AJM]

isnt art whatever you make of it? if i see something in it, then whos to tell me its not there?

You're free to delude yourself into believing whatever you want.


im sure this guy (http://geoffklock.blogspot.com/2008/09/comics-out-september-24-2008-all-star.html#links) is just grasping at straws. :rolleyes:

Who's he and why should i care?

[TROUBLEZ]

I'd be curious to know how well this story would be received if it had been written by an unknown and not had Jim Lee art.

@bout Frank/Swatzikas/Fascism
Good point. But when you keep repeating the same thing over and over, maybe it's time for a new gimmick.

[NickGuy]

You're free to delude yourself into believing whatever you want.

and youre free to be a jerk...do you go into fine art museums and tell everyone there that they're "grasping at sraws" too?


Who's he and why should i care?

you didnt read the "about the author"?

he has written tons of blogs about comics and even wrote an essay in the book "Batman Unuthorized". my point is that you make it seem like only average joes are sitting here saying "this book is layered" when theres people with credentials saying that theres more to meet the eye, how is that grasping at straws? this guy has more believability to me than some random guy making a blog and going "ASBAR SUCKS"

[TROUBLEZ]

Thanks for the link NickGuy.

I couldn't take him too seriously though, with lines like this:


People complain about the lateness, but in letting only brilliant people work on these books DC has created something really lasting and timeless.

Morrison's All-Star title didn't read badly with the lateness because each issue could stand on it's own. With only one title that finished it's hard to say that the overall All-Star line is "lasting and timeless."


But the Ultimate line sports more than a hundred issues of Ultimate Spider Man alone, the line has too many titles and creators. DC wins, as far as I am concerned, and I would love to see Marvel do the same thing.

Ultimate Spider-man made it to a hundred issues because the writer and artist were consistent with quality and deadlines which helped it become a top selling title. While the point about Ultimate Marvel having too many titles is something I agree with, it had little effect on what Bagley and Bendis were doing.

I doubt I would read anything else from this person.

[Name Already Taken]

It will be 2012 before the 12th issue is delivered.

[Gitaroo_Dude]

So what you're basically saying is that you can intellectualise any old shit? And if authorial intent is secondary to the experience, how can we ever know when art is effective?

To a certain extent, yeah. Why not? I thought Kieron Gillen summed it up nicely in the latest Phonogram:

"Actual objective worth has relatively little real relevance in the subjective importance of identity creation via art, thus facilitating my later understanding that if that's true of me, it's true of everyone".

It seems fairly simple to me: art is effective when there's an audience that enjoys it and and talks about it.

I figure that's why it's considered better to make something that's hated then something everyone ignores and is apathetic about.

[AJM]

and youre free to be a jerk...do you go into fine art museums and tell everyone there that they're "grasping at sraws" too?

If i thought something that i'd paid money to experience was bad then i would voice my opinion, yes.

this guy has more believability to me than some random guy making a blog and going "ASBAR SUCKS"

At no point did i say "ASBAR SUCKS." I called it an "infantile, idiotic, misogynist exercise in shock" which i think you'll agree is a little more constructive. And just because he's written an article or two doesn't make his opinion any more valid than mine or yours, nor does it make him an authority on the subject. And you're making quite an assumption here too - how do you know that i'm 'some random guy'? For all you know, i could very well be a published author with similar credentials. Not that it matters - as i said, all opinions are valid.

[AJM]

you are the only one who finds it offensive.

Yes, me and the whole Jewish race.

[Captain Jim]

Why is it that All Star B&R threads invariably end in a barrage of mutual insults? We're done here.