Batman #687 (spoilers)

[Joe Franklin]

Batman #687
32 full color pages
Written by: Judd Winick
Art by: Ed Benes
Release Date: June 10, 2009
Price: $3.99

http://comics.ign.com/articles/992/992736p1.html

[dreyga2000]

Huh... I can't I really think I'm going to enjoy this...

I wonder if Damien will play a part...

[Retro315]

I'm pretty glad for BFTC getting an epilogue, because frankly, apart from Jason in the river and Dick in the cowl at the end, nothing really got closure. I'm not saying all the threads needed to be tied up - but definitely the immediate utter chaos of Gotham needs to see a new Batman and be like "crap ... our reign of chaos is in trouble".

And Ed Benes' art is the same post-Jim Lee style as Tony Daniel's, so it fits pretty seamlessly.

I liked the flashback.

[AiyokuSama]

I LOVE Winick's Robin!Dick :) This gives me serious hope for his writing the Wingster in the bat costume.

[WorstThingUS]

Ugh. He's writing Dick like he was Jason. That's $4 definitely going somewhere else.

[Captain Jim]

I like what I see. That was a great lead in to the story.

I'm sure Morrison's book was released first because it's considered the "flagship," and it was a nice effect to simply jump into the middle of things. But I'm glad to see there's a book which will bridge the gap. Looking forward to this. :smile:

[F1uke]

Interesting. I'm gonna pick this up, hopefully I won't be let down.

[BloodOps]

The alternate cover is beautiful, hopefully I can pick it up. Also hopefully this isn't a total disappointment as I have high expectations.

[Mundungus]

It reads fairly well. I've never read a lot of Judd Winick books so I don't have much of an opinion of him. I probably won't try it out due to lack of funds, but I'll at least keep an eye on what people think.

Still. Seems like a good start.

[dreyga2000]

Whenever, I see these flash backs depicting, like this, Dick as Robin I wish there was title or something with a modern depiction of the Bruce and Dick Batman/Robin Dynamic.... I really think it's an unexplored era in Batman's modern contitnuity...

[F1uke]

Whenever, I see these flash backs depicting, like this, Dick as Robin I wish there was title or something with a modern depiction of the Bruce and Dick Batman/Robin Dynamic.... I really think it's an unexplored era in Batman's modern contitnuity...

All-Star :tongue:

[Doc Goblin]

Looks like a good start to me. I'm really looking forward to this issue. The flashback was a fun little scene, and a good start to Dick's run as Batman.

[Kiryu]

Soooo tacky. Not really what I'm looking for in comics today. Wish we could have gotten Bags on B&R. Winick can keep Benes.

[SpideyZERO]

Pretty good. Can't wait for the issue

[AiyokuSama]

Soooo tacky. Not really what I'm looking for in comics today. Wish we could have gotten Bags on B&R. Winick can keep Benes.

Out of curiosity, what makes it tacky?

[AJM]

Looks alright to me, i'll definitely give it a chance.

[agentofthebat]

i cant wait for it!

[Mia]

OMG! Batman looks so hot!:eek: The art work alone ensures that I'm picking up this baby!

[Will44]

I don't know why, but it seems a little off to me. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me that Robin would booby trap the cave. It makes more sense that Dick would stay in the parameters of the task.l Ah, I don't know, maybe I'm just being picky.

I'm going to take a look at it, but I've been burned too often by Winick to really want to buy this book.

[WorstThingUS]

I don't know why, but it seems a little off to me. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me that Robin would booby trap the cave. It makes more sense that Dick would stay in the parameters of the task.l Ah, I don't know, maybe I'm just being picky.


No, you're not. Dick would have stayed with the parameters of the task. It's Jason who would have done it in the cave and thought it was the coolest thing ever.

[Will44]

okay, I'm glad I'm not crazy then!

[strong guy79]

It is sort of interesting that a post-crisis Dick Grayson Robin hasn't really been that explored. I never really thought of that until someone else pointed that out earlier.

Given that, it's sort of unreasonable to think that, with the more realistic relationships of post-crisis DC, that the current Grayson was the cheery Burt Ward Robin that always agreed with Batman. I don't think any teenager or pre-teen would ever not rebel against their father at some point.

[NeoStar9X]

It is sort of interesting that a post-crisis Dick Grayson Robin hasn't really been that explored. I never really thought of that until someone else pointed that out earlier.

Given that, it's sort of unreasonable to think that, with the more realistic relationships of post-crisis DC, that the current Grayson was the cheery Burt Ward Robin that always agreed with Batman. I don't think any teenager or pre-teen would ever not rebel against their father at some point.

Good point. By the time COIE happen Dick was already Nightwing and Jason was Robin. So pretty much outside of a Year One, which I don't think was done for Dick as Robin, do we really have anything to go on when it comes to his time as Robin post-COIE?

I did think that was Jason though as I imagined that's how Jason would have acted as Robin. Then there is the look. Dick and Jason look so similar that just added to the confusion until Batman called him Dick. Let's not forget that Alfred was looking at Jason's Robin suit in the case next to Bruce's Batman suit. All signs seemed to point to Jason.

Still looks good. Maybe they will be playing up the idea that Dick and Jason were and maybe to a degree are similar but their experiences caused them to go down different paths. With Dick as Batman now and Jason seemingly going to be an anti-Batman over in B&R.

[CocktailXYZ]

So pretty much outside of a Year One, which I don't think was done for Dick as Robin, do we really have anything to go on when it comes to his time as Robin post-COIE?

There was, in fact, a Robin: Year One mini for Grayson, by Dixon and Beatty.

Also, Dark Victory and Batman Chronicles: The Gauntlet.

Not a whole lot for post-COIE Dick Robin, but enough to get a sense of the character.

[NeoStar9X]

There was, in fact, a Robin: Year One mini for Grayson, by Dixon and Beatty.

Also, Dark Victory and Batman Chronicles: The Gauntlet.

Not a whole lot for post-COIE Dick Robin, but enough to get a sense of the character.

Gotcha. Didn't know that. Thanks.

[Will.S]

This doesn't read badly but Robin does seem a little too overzealous.

I'll have to check it out in the shop to really decide but I think I might pass on it.

[Karl O'Neill]

Screw the haters.

That reads fine and dandy.

sold.

[Kiryu]

Out of curiosity, what makes it tacky?

Opening the first issue of the story about Dick Grayson taking the cowl by flashing back to a time where he tells Batman "HEY ONE DAY I'LL WEAR THE COWL HAHAHA" and then that circumstance being tragic and not playful and fun like the flashback? It's so cliche. And the Dick flashback just came off forced and cheesey rather then natural and playful like Dick's banter with Alfred in Batman and Robin.

It's a shame the first book following Batman and Robin falls so short of of it's inventiveness and originality. I really feel like this is going to be angsty tired crap. But that's just me.

[Karl O'Neill]

Ah come that flashback scene was good.

Dick as a cocky little brat when he was Robin is perfectly in character.

[Jorriss]

Given that, it's sort of unreasonable to think that, with the more realistic relationships of post-crisis DC, that the current Grayson was the cheery Burt Ward Robin that always agreed with Batman. I don't think any teenager or pre-teen would ever not rebel against their father at some point.
He does rebel against him. Look at Nightwing Annual 2, Nightwing Year one, and Robin Year one. Part of why he listens so closely is because early on he didn't and got someone killed by two-face, then a few years later at around 16-17 things got really tense again. Not much is told in those years but Robin wasn't always cheery and listened to everything Batman said with no consideration.

[WorstThingUS]

Ah come that flashback scene was good.

Dick as a cocky little brat when he was Robin is perfectly in character.

That's the role Damien is playing right now and it's something Dick never was.

[Kiryu]

Ah come that flashback scene was good.

Dick as a cocky little brat when he was Robin is perfectly in character.

I disagree. The flashback itself was well...awful. Even taken out of the horrifically tired context. Considering that was well, massive ugh.

But power to whoever likes it, I've got an supremely fantastic Bat-book that showcases the characters in new and interesting ways and will follow-up and build on Grant's previous excellent run. So now that I gave my initial thoughts on the preview and replied to a question, I'll go back to talking about that one.

Cheers.

[strong guy79]

I agree with that.

Dick could maybe be shown as bitter or rebellious but he was never angsty.

I think its Bruce's characterization that really threw that preview off, though, more than Dick. The whole point of that past relationship and the reason for all the Robins was that Bruce was happier back then.

Dick might cheat knowing full well it wouldn't count for the actual test, just for the opportunity to pull a prank. An in-character Bruce would have laughed it off not be the grim "You did it wrong, grumble" response. Pre-crisis Dick pulled a jump on Batman in the cave just for fun so it's not really out of character. The difference was that Bruce wasn't a jerk about it.

[Karl O'Neill]

Well at least mark millar is not writing,

he would have robin break batman's neck, then chop off alfred's balls all for shock value.:biggrin:

[Karl O'Neill]

I disagree. The flashback itself was well...awful. Even taken out of the horrifically tired context. Considering that was well, massive ugh.

But power to whoever likes it, I've got an supremely fantastic Bat-book that showcases the characters in new and interesting ways and will follow-up and build on Grant's previous excellent run. So now that I gave my initial thoughts on the preview and replied to a question, I'll go back to talking about that one.

Cheers.

What do you think of the streets of Gotham preview so far? We get to see a little bit of paul dini writing the new batman and robin in the preview. I dug it.

[Kiryu]

What do you think of the streets of Gotham preview so far? We get to see a little bit of paul dini writing the new batman and robin in the preview. I dug it.

I thought it was alright. Damian was cool for the brief panel he was there, so that was good. I didn't catch a new vibe from Batman though, until Damian showed it it could have just as easily been Bruce in a flashback, so that disapoints me because the best thing about Batman and Robin is that Dick isn't Bruce and it shows, both in how he interacts with his family(Alfred and Damian) and his playful handling of Toad.

But Dini is absolutely capable of writing a lighter Dick Grayson and while I didn't care for Heart of Hush I loved his done-in-ones on 'Tec. So I'll probably check a few issues out.

[Karl O'Neill]

I loved the done in one stories like kanye west loved fishsticks. But I sincerly thought Heart of hush was his magnus opus. He made me finally rate Hush as a villain since Loeb first introduced him.

[Will44]

I didn't catch a new vibe from Batman though, until Damian showed it it could have just as easily been Bruce in a flashback, so that disapoints me because the best thing about Batman and Robin is that Dick isn't Bruce and it shows, both in how he interacts with his family(Alfred and Damian) and his playful handling of Toad.


Bruce would have never said "maybe next time Robin" if he was asked "can I cut out her tongue." Dick did because he has a good sense of humor

I think that's how we'll see Dick Grayson act different. There will be more jokes like that.

[BigTopTony]

Looks okay to me. I'm not a big fan of Winnick but I don't think he's a hack either. Maybe average at best but can still put together a coherent enough story.

The question is, do any of the titles beyond Batman and Robin matter? That's not a statement of bravado but a serious inquiry. It seems to me, and I could be wrong, that Morrison is the man making the decisions regarding what happens to the characters and the other titles are just tributaries to his massive river of ideas. Everything else seems filler to the main story which is happening in Batman and Robin.

[Kiryu]

Bruce would have never said "maybe next time Robin" if he was asked "can I cut out her tongue." Dick did because he has a good sense of humor

I think that's how we'll see Dick Grayson act different. There will be more jokes like that.

Yeah that's a fair enough point. I guess with the art dipicting Batman in the shadows with his cape being all swirly it made me remove some of the humor from the scene.

But like I said, loved Dini's run besides Heart of Hush, which I felt was nothing special and not nearly as strong as his Joker/Robin issue or the Batman/Zatanna issues. So I'll give this a fair shake.

@BigTopTony

In a word, no. Batman and the other Bat-books will take cues from Batman and Robin, thus any major change in that book will be reflected upon the others. The inverse is not true. But Batman and Robin is the continuing story of BATMAN from Grant's previous run. So if dictating the larger story is important to you, pass on the other books. I'm just planning on grabbing Batman and Robin and cherry picking the books that deal with new aspects of the status quo that interest and that have strong creative teams.

[numberONE]

The preview looks okay to me. I'm still looking forward to it.

[Captain Jim]

Opening the first issue of the story about Dick Grayson taking the cowl by flashing back to a time where he tells Batman "HEY ONE DAY I'LL WEAR THE COWL HAHAHA" and then that circumstance being tragic and not playful and fun like the flashback? It's so cliche. And the Dick flashback just came off forced and cheesey rather then natural and playful like Dick's banter with Alfred in Batman and Robin.

It's a shame the first book following Batman and Robin falls so short of of it's inventiveness and originality. I really feel like this is going to be angsty tired crap. But that's just me.

Of course, if Grant Morrison had written the identical script, instead of Judd Winick, then it would have been brilliant. :rolleyes:

The question is, do any of the titles beyond Batman and Robin matter? That's not a statement of bravado but a serious inquiry. It seems to me, and I could be wrong, that Morrison is the man making the decisions regarding what happens to the characters and the other titles are just tributaries to his massive river of ideas. Everything else seems filler to the main story which is happening in Batman and Robin.

B&R is definitely being considered the flagship title, and Morrison's vision is leading the way at the moment, but ultimately it's the editors who call the shots and coordinate the various titles. B&R is but one piece of a massive rebirth of the Batman universe this month and it's both unfair and short sighted to say that none of the other titles matter.

[another_version]

Captain Jim pointed out the 'Batman Reborn' title, that is on the cover of the new post BftC books. How long are they going to stay, Jim said this month? And I highly doubt it, but I would like to see some Bat numbered titles, like the current Supes books. Does anyone know how high the Supes numbers got in the 90's, and what started it and ended it? I would love to see the Bat books relate to each other, stating that they all spun out of BftC.

[marvelprince]

Opening the first issue of the story about Dick Grayson taking the cowl by flashing back to a time where he tells Batman "HEY ONE DAY I'LL WEAR THE COWL HAHAHA" and then that circumstance being tragic and not playful and fun like the flashback? It's so cliche. And the Dick flashback just came off forced and cheesey rather then natural and playful like Dick's banter with Alfred in Batman and Robin.

It's a shame the first book following Batman and Robin falls so short of of it's inventiveness and originality. I really feel like this is going to be angsty tired crap. But that's just me.

Dude, chill out. Its what, 7 pages out of 40? Lets not write that 0 star review just yet.

Despite it seeming "out of character" it establishes what the writer is trying to get across. Dick is fun-loving, Bruce is grim. Yeah back then Bruce was more cheerful and Dick wasn't so overzealous but it effectively sets up both of the characters so that Winnick can juxtapose how different both of them are later on. Seriously guys, be easy.

[Agent Wax]

You know, I thought this preview was excellent and I can't wait to read the rest of it.
I'm excited to see how Dick and Damien work out.
In this book.
Not the other one.
I'm very much all set with that one.

[dreyga2000]

You know, I thought this preview was excellent and I can't wait to read the rest of it.
I'm excited to see how Dick and Damien work out.
In this book.
Not the other one.
I'm very much all set with that one.

From what I undestand this one will be the Batman solo title I doubt Damien will play a big part in this title....

[Agent Wax]

In a word, no. Batman and the other Bat-books will take cues from Batman and Robin, thus any major change in that book will be reflected upon the others. The inverse is not true. But Batman and Robin is the continuing story of BATMAN from Grant's previous run. So if dictating the larger story is important to you, pass on the other books. I'm just planning on grabbing Batman and Robin and cherry picking the books that deal with new aspects of the status quo that interest and that have strong creative teams.

Where was this ever said? Everything I've read has had them as separate books telling a very different kind of story about the same characters.
I kind of felt like they gave Morrison this new book because so many people were unhappy with his Batman run. Kind of like when Claremont stunk up the X-men a while back so they gave him XTREME XMEN and let someone else take the regular title reigns, without him getting mad.
"Here ya go buddy, your very own book! Do whatever you want with it!"

[RonnieThunderbolts]

From what I undestand this one will be the Batman solo title I doubt Damien will play a big part in this title....

I don't think you're wrong that he will not be the focus, but the solicits for either July or August mention Batman training the new Robin the pages of Winick's Batman.

[dreyga2000]

I kind of felt like they gave Morrison this new book because so many people were unhappy with his Batman run.

LOL... Really the guys at DC only rare about sales and RIP flew off the rack like hotcakes...

The reason Morrison got his own title is because they wanted to capitalized off of his success with a shiny new number 1....

I don't think you're wrong that he will not be the focus, but the solicits for either July or August mention Batman training the new Robin the pages of Winick's Batman.

Wow, huh, that''s awsome I do hope the B/R dynamic gets played up in both titles...

[RonnieThunderbolts]

I kind of felt like they gave Morrison this new book because so many people were unhappy with his Batman run. Kind of like when Claremont stunk up the X-men a while back so they gave him XTREME XMEN and let someone else take the regular title reigns, without him getting mad.
"Here ya go buddy, your very own book! Do whatever you want with it!"

They've said in numerous press releases and interviews that Batman and Robin is the new flagship/main Batman title. This is sort of like the situation you describe, only the new title is like "New X-Men," in that it is Grant Morrison and Frank Quitely and it is dictating the new direction of the line.

[Captain Jim]

I kind of felt like they gave Morrison this new book because so many people were unhappy with his Batman run. Kind of like when Claremont stunk up the X-men a while back so they gave him XTREME XMEN and let someone else take the regular title reigns, without him getting mad.
"Here ya go buddy, your very own book! Do whatever you want with it!"

I don't think so. The sales were through the roof on Winick's Batman books (despite their somewhat polarizing effect on fandom).

A more accurate parallel would be when Alan Grant and Norm Breyfogle were given a new title, Shadow of the Bat, because everyone was so fond of their work on Detective. Or a more recent parallel, when Paul Dini and Dustin Nguyen are given a new title, Streets of Gotham, because everyone was so fond of their work on Detective.

[Agent Wax]

They've said in numerous press releases and interviews that Batman and Robin is the new flagship/main Batman title. This is sort of like the situation you describe, only the new title is like "New X-Men," in that it is Grant Morrison and Frank Quitely and it is dictating the new direction of the line.

Well if this is true, than God help the Batman books. :rolleyes:

[Agent Wax]

I'm still surprised at how RIP sold. I had people coming in every single week dropping it from their subscriptions, or buying it, but telling me they couldn't stand it and had no clue what was going on.
But they still bought it.
Just like I did. haha.

[Captain Jim]

You're a retailer?

[Kiryu]

Of course, if Grant Morrison had written the identical script, instead of Judd Winick, then it would have been brilliant. :rolleyes:

Nah, everyone is capable of dropping rubbish from time to time. I wasn't that keen on the ending to Morrison's New X-Men run, but I do think he's been aces on Batman.

Dude, chill out. Its what, 7 pages out of 40? Lets not write that 0 star review just yet.

Despite it seeming "out of character" it establishes what the writer is trying to get across. Dick is fun-loving, Bruce is grim. Yeah back then Bruce was more cheerful and Dick wasn't so overzealous but it effectively sets up both of the characters so that Winnick can juxtapose how different both of them are later on. Seriously guys, be easy.

I'm not really concerned with if Dick's portray is consistent with anything, and as others have said Dick as Robin hasn't really been explored much recently. Regardless of if that's how Dick would/should have acted, I didn't care for the flashback or the heavy handed "irony" or whatever Winick is trying for.

But I really didn't care for Winick's prior run, except maybe very very few pieces of Under the Hood towards the start. So folk who enjoyed that can dig this.

[hYPE]

I love what I saw and read so far. Winick is a great writer and I can't wait to see whats gonna happen. I'm sorry but I like big shake up stuff like this, makes things interesting. After time things get boring!

[nepenthes]

I have to agree with Kiryu this seems a little cheesier and overwrought than I expected, bit more of the same old. I'm still gonna be picking up the first arc or so however. If Winick can bring this back to Under the Hood levels then great

[mofo]

Interesting
The important thing that we should take away from the preview is that Winnick knows that Dick is different from Bruce, so we should expect jovial times :tongue:

[WorstThingUS]

Dude, chill out. Its what, 7 pages out of 40? Lets not write that 0 star review just yet.

Despite it seeming "out of character" it establishes what the writer is trying to get across. Dick is fun-loving, Bruce is grim. Yeah back then Bruce was more cheerful and Dick wasn't so overzealous but it effectively sets up both of the characters so that Winnick can juxtapose how different both of them are later on. Seriously guys, be easy.

But that's the difference between a better writer and a lesser writer. A better writer gets it right in those 7 pages and then again and again over the next 40. In other words, a top athlete shouldn't have to warm up on the playing field. He hits the ground running. Dini doesn't blow characterization in the preview of Streets of Gotham and Morrison didn't blow characterization in the preview of Batman & Robin. Winnick, however, does which is why I'm keeping my money and spending it on the other titles.

[Will44]

But that's the difference between a better writer and a lesser writer. A better writer gets it right in those 7 pages and then again and again over the next 40. In other words, a top athlete shouldn't have to warm up on the playing field. He hits the ground running. Dini doesn't blow characterization in the preview of Streets of Gotham and Morrison didn't blow characterization in the preview of Batman & Robin. Winnick, however, does which is why I'm keeping my money and spending it on the other titles.

Quoted for truth!

The more I look at those preview pages, the more I'm reminded of why I don't like Winick's work. He just can't write characters with the correct voice.

[AJM]

I kind of felt like they gave Morrison this new book because so many people were unhappy with his Batman run.

Are you just trying to cause a stir? If you work in a comic / book shop as your posts seem to suggest, then you know fine well that Batman RIP has been a commercial (and critical) success for DC. Some internet fanboy grumbling doesn't amount to "so many people being unhappy", and i'll be very surprised if Batman And Robin isn't DC's biggest title for the next 12 months. I understand that you don't like Morrison's Batman run, but that doesn't change the sales figures.

[hYPE]

Are you just trying to cause a stir? If you work in a comic / book shop as your posts seem to suggest, then you know fine well that Batman RIP has been a commercial (and critical) success for DC. Some internet fanboy grumbling doesn't amount to "so many people being unhappy", and i'll be very surprised if Batman And Robin isn't DC's biggest title for the next 12 months. I understand that you don't like Morrison's Batman run, but that doesn't change the sales figures.

You speak the truth my friend. Me personally I am far from unhappy with the direction of the batman character and all the other characters. It's a new era for Batman and I know people are not fans of change but I love it!

[marvelprince]

But that's the difference between a better writer and a lesser writer. A better writer gets it right in those 7 pages and then again and again over the next 40. In other words, a top athlete shouldn't have to warm up on the playing field. He hits the ground running. Dini doesn't blow characterization in the preview of Streets of Gotham and Morrison didn't blow characterization in the preview of Batman & Robin. Winnick, however, does which is why I'm keeping my money and spending it on the other titles.

I NEVER said that Winnick was on Morisson's level by any means, merely that the preview is not enough to say the book is completely piss poor. Its a flashback back to at a time thats not been clearly represented to the modern audience aside from maybe a mini of two and people all up in arms about it? Gimme a break.

Read the book, then complain if the characterizations etc don't match up. I've read it and enjoyed it immensely (but then again most will just hate cause it doesn't have Morisson's name on the front).

[Kiryu]

I NEVER said that Winnick was on Morisson's level by any means, merely that the preview is not enough to say the book is completely piss poor. Its a flashback back to at a time thats not been clearly represented to the modern audience aside from maybe a mini of two and people all up in arms about it? Gimme a break.

Read the book, then complain if the characterizations etc don't match up. I've read it and enjoyed it immensely (but then again most will just hate cause it doesn't have Morisson's name on the front).

Or because it does have Winick's name on it.

And y'know, I disagree. 7 pages of awful is 7 pages of awful. To take those 7 pages and have something happen in the next set be so amazing and relevant and really cast that flashback which right now seems nothing but a cheesey heavy handed "Be careful what you wish for/oh no you were happy now sad :(" flashback in a new and incredible light that makes me completely change my opinion on how poor it is, it would demonstrate a level of writing power that would be like if Warren Ellis, Allan Moore, Grant Morrison, Garth Ennis all combined their genetics and implanted it into Gail Simone who would then give birth completing the ultimate writer-abomination.

Now wether or not you think those 7 pages are awful is subjective. But 7 pages is absolutely enough to see if a story is going to be your speed. And if you insist that it's not, feel free to alert everyone who thinks this looks "Excellent" because they used the same thought process to achieve that opinion as anyone who says it looks crap but without the side-effect of being called a Morrison-fanboy and a "hater".

[WorstThingUS]

I NEVER said that Winnick was on Morisson's level by any means, merely that the preview is not enough to say the book is completely piss poor. Its a flashback back to at a time thats not been clearly represented to the modern audience aside from maybe a mini of two and people all up in arms about it? Gimme a break.

I think the preview gives you a pretty good idea of how Winnick has no clue about these characters. This is Batman & Robin. Bruce Wayne & Dick Grayson. Not exactly new and unexplored characters that a writer "needs some time" to get correctly.

And just because someone posted this period hasn't been explored, doesn't make it so. I've read plenty of flashback stories about Dick Grayson's time as Robin, post-crisis. From the Legends of the DC Universe series to the recent Teen Titans Year One. And then there's Chuck Dixon's great Robin Year One mini or the Marc Andreyko excellent Nightwing Annual. It's been explored and it's been explored better.


Read the book, then complain if the characterizations etc don't match up. I've read it and enjoyed it immensely (but then again most will just hate cause it doesn't have Morisson's name on the front).

Morrison turns up a lot of crap too. His reach tends to exceed his grasp at times. But even when the story fails, he doesn't just blow character like this.

[Quinnhop]

I enjoyed this issue. A lot.

AND I've loved Morrison's entire Batman run.

So, clearly, there needn't be such a divide between fans of the two books. I think they'll coexist wonderfully.

[Will44]

Alfred curses twice in this book. Why? Cause Winick can't write characters "in-character."

[Karl O'Neill]

I agree with captain jim this time.

Switch winick's name with any other writer with those same LINES of narrative and you would get a much drastic reaction. probably more positive for sure.

I know to be true, Because I do with mark millar all the time. I despise his writing so much that any new stuff that he writes I never give him a chance.

I feel if I can do this with MM then other fans can do this with judd.

[Mac]

Agreed with the two previous posters completely.
Aside from that, I loved this issue.
I just wish we would've gotten it prior to B&R, that way I got my definite reasoning why he's in the cowl and why he's in a penthouse instead of the cave.

I was disappointed, however, that the meeting with Superman and Wonderwoman was simply a flash back, and not a meeting after Dick had donned the cowl.

Other than that and Alfred's potty mouth, I thought this issue was spectacular.

"Am I 'all right'? No sir, I am not. My Son has died." was such a great line.
Probably one of the best dialogues about Bruce dying so far.

[WorstThingUS]

Switch winick's name with any other writer with those same LINES of narrative and you would get a much drastic reaction. probably more positive for sure.


Nope. It's out of character for anyone. When Fabien Nicieza wrote a Robin (Tim Drake) who was grim and gritty and shrugged off the deaths of innocents he was wrong too. The only difference here is that with Winnick these kinds of things just fulfill the worst expectations of people like me.

[Karl O'Neill]

Can characters not grow or change? or get new characteristics.

[SuperSince92]

I'm not one of the Winnick-whiners, but I thought this issue was sub-par and a waste at $3.99. It just seemed redundant following Battle for the Cowl. Yeah I saw it was titled as an Epilogue but there wasn't much to it that I think readers were really clamoring for.

This book gets one more issue and if it doesn't click, it's dropped.

[Kylun123]

Can characters not grow or change? or get new characteristics.

Not if you don't explain them/not if the change doesn't occur naturally.

Sure Bruce's death could be enough to knock Alfred for a loop (as an example). But if based on all prior background he would be expected to handle it differently . . . then when a writer feels like changing it to fit the story he wants to tell, then it can come out forced, uncharacteristic, and maybe even lazy.

[Kiryu]

Switch winick's name with any other writer with those same LINES of narrative and you would get a much drastic reaction. probably more positive for sure.

No, I am sorry. You are wrong. If in Batman and Robin Grant Morrison had the same "You failed the test" "No I surprised you hahah I win" "I meant in the field." "Lol no that wasn't the test I still winz!!11" exchange I would say it was awful. If ANY other writer had Robin saying to Batman "You got served" I would say it was awful.

[Karl O'Neill]

No, I am sorry. You are wrong. If in Batman and Robin Grant Morrison had the same "You failed the test" "No I surprised you hahah I win" "I meant in the field." "Lol no that wasn't the test I still winz!!11" exchange I would say it was awful. If ANY other writer had Robin saying to Batman "You got served" I would say it was awful.

I don't mean to be awkward but HOW can we truely know?

You have a history of winick hate/dislike much the same way as I have a history of millar dislike.

Lets face it. Will you ever truely enjoy or love a winnick comic again? More importantly. do you want to?

[Kiryu]

I don't mean to be awkward but HOW can we truely know?

You have a history of winick hate/dislike much the same way as I have a history of millar dislike.

Lets face it. Will you ever truely enjoy or love a winnick comic again? More importantly. do you want to?

When he writes one I dig, sure. I have nothing against the guy personally, I just think that beyond maybe 12 issues of Outsiders he's been consistently terrible and nearly unreadable. My first experience to Morrison was New X-Men where Xorn was Magento who was now a crazy pedophile on drugs and Jean Grey died again. I thought it sucked. Then through 52, Batman, and All Star Superman I discovered "Hey, this guy is kind of awesome" and went back and read his major stuff like Animal Man and Doom Patrol. But if he does something I don't like I have no problem admitting it.

Same with any writer/artist/whatever. I have a loyalty to stories I enjoy, nothing else as far as entertainment goes.

I have a similar relationship with Millar as you do. I dug Ultimates 1 and The Authority, but since Civil War I can't stand the guy even though I LOVED Ultimates 1.

And, y'know, you've been claiming Winick and Benes were going to blow away B&R and surprise everyone since before there was a preview for the book. So if I had any preconcived-expectations then you had them to, but because yours were positive it doesn't make them more valid. It doesn't make you a "fanboy" or me a "hater"

[Will44]

I don't mean to be awkward but HOW can we truely know?

You have a history of winick hate/dislike much the same way as I have a history of millar dislike.

Lets face it. Will you ever truely enjoy or love a winnick comic again? More importantly. do you want to?

Would I? I'm not sure. Could I enjoy a future comic by Winick? Yes, I could, if he wrote his characters "in-character" and managed a good beginning, middle and end.

I don't think that's asking a lot.

[WorstThingUS]

I don't mean to be awkward but HOW can we truely know?



It's easy. Frank Miller on Batman Year One and Dark Knight Returns is great. Frank Miller on All Star Batman and Dark Knight Returns 2 is awful. Same characters, same style, same writer. Different results. Bad writing is bad writing. We know it when we see it, despite the writer.

And I recommend anyone to check out Batman Chronicles: The Gauntlet. It's about a "test" Robin has to pass for Batman in order to become Robin. Like I said, this has been done before and better and post crisis.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_iOY8YHAQaEk/SMmZoI6403I/AAAAAAAAAck/joGpguQBqCM/s400/Batman+Chronicles+-+The+Gauntlet-00fc.jpg

[zur en arrh]

Am I "all right"?
No, sir, I am not. My son has died.

AWESOME line. Benes art is superb if you ask me. Winick's writing is solid, and I like the way he's written Dick Grayson. I don't think Winick being on the title will be a problem, personally.

[Karl O'Neill]

Is it safe to say then,that Logically;MIKE MARTS is not doing his job?

If he is the guy who is approving these out of character scripts from one writer and then accepting a different so-called in character script from another writer then he is simply not doing his job.

[Karl O'Neill]

It's easy. Frank Miller on Batman Year One and Dark Knight Returns is great. Frank Miller on All Star Batman and Dark Knight Returns 2 is awful. Same characters, same style, same writer. Different results. Bad writing is bad writing. We know it when we see it, despite the writer.



Sorry but all star batman is balls to the wall awesome and fun.

[WorstThingUS]

Sorry but all star batman is balls to the wall awesome and fun.

If I thought he was being satirical, I'd think it was an amazing piece of pop art. But I don't think he's kidding.

[Karl O'Neill]

If I thought he was being satirical, I'd think it was an amazing piece of pop art. But I don't think he's kidding.

If the art was GRIMY and GRITTY like the writer in question's style people would view the book a little bit differently.

But JIM LEE on art changes things.

It's too perfect and then of course, the writing is not so perfect. But it is much more fun than DK2.

[AJM]

It's easy. Frank Miller on Batman Year One and Dark Knight Returns is great. Frank Miller on All Star Batman and Dark Knight Returns 2 is awful.

Amen. Although i still find myself reluctantly drawn to ASBR when it eventually comes out - complete car crash comics.

[CYOTI]

Agreed this was an excellent comic and epilogue for Battle for the Cowl.

[bongoes]

Am I "all right"?
No, sir, I am not. My son has died.

AWESOME line. Benes art is superb if you ask me. Winick's writing is solid, and I like the way he's written Dick Grayson. I don't think Winick being on the title will be a problem, personally.
That was a fantastic line. I also liked Dicks speech at the funeral and Alfred talking about the "costumed parades". Sometimes I forget that Alfred doesn't interact with all the superheroes on a regular basis, so he has a different view o things.

It's easy. Frank Miller on Batman Year One and Dark Knight Returns is great. Frank Miller on All Star Batman and Dark Knight Returns 2 is awful. Same characters, same style, same writer. Different results. Bad writing is bad writing. We know it when we see it, despite the writer.


So true. I loved Year One but DKR2 was one of the worst things I've ever read. I shudder at the thought of "Holy Terror Batman!" ever being finished.

[Redrumbin]

It was a good issue, some nice writing.... Just felt it was one week late.

[Retro315]

This issue effectively (well, very effectively) bridges the gap between Battle for the Cowl # 3 and Batman and Robin # 1. It also really plays to the way the final issues of Nightwing were going. The narrative works well, because Winnick just tells the story and kind of jumps "back a few weeks"/"months" and so forth and we see the scenes but don't need to worry about where exactly they fall between Final Crisis and Last Rites and so forth.

But anyway, ultimately, this is intercut with the final "teaser" aspects of BFTC, where Tony Daniel jumped to Dick putting on the cape and cowl. Except it wasn't that easy. Even though Dick had half resigned himself to taking over for Batman since if he didn't, somebody else would try, he was procrastinating, until what we see in here - Alfred kind of said something that snapped him into it. And works well with Morrison's plans as well.

Dick can't be Bruce - but he can be Batman. So he moves to the Penthouse and the Bat-Bunker.

I dig how he dealt with Superman and Wonder Woman, he and Alfred telling them exactly how the fallout from this needed to happen. His line to Damian "Just get in the damn car" works quite well to transition the jump between the wild joyriding Damian last seen, and the Morrison B&R Damian who might be smug and backtalking, but at least shuts up and listens when Dick tells him to, having to at least respect the guy.

The gravesite seems inconsistent, but then again, the scene didn't really highlight any particular grave as being Bruce's, so they might've just been getting ready to walk up to the blank headstone we've seen depicted everywhere else with the cute bat-cut top.

Doctor Phosphorus was kind of quick and pointless, but served as a pretty good example of Damian being out of his element where Dick's experience would work out, and Phosphorus has at least been running amok a fair bit lately so he fits into the more recently seen criminals category.

Lastly, Ed Benes draws a pretty intense, awesome Scarecrow. I mean, it's Scarecrow up to his same old "I'll gas everyone!" antics when last year he proved he doesn't need cheesy plots and gas to scare people, but I suppose he'll be a character that has to work in both capacities.

I'm curious to see whether or not Dick starts collecting his own trophies to adorn the Bat-Bunker in the style of the Giant Penny, Giant Joker Card or Robot T-Rex.

Not much mention of Tim, but then again, I haven't cracked into Red Robin # 1 yet and assume 99% of those bases will be covered.

This was a pretty damn solid issue, and I was pleasantly surprised by it. I'm not as purely anti-Winnick as some people, but it's definitely above what I'd consider his usual standards. Maybe it's the fertile new playground of Dick Grayson as Batman, maybe it's just the way it fits pretty seamlessly between what Tomasi, Tony Daniel, and Morrison have done in the last few months.

[another_version]

It's easy. Frank Miller on Batman Year One and Dark Knight Returns is great. Frank Miller on All Star Batman and Dark Knight Returns 2 is awful. Same characters, same style, same writer. Different results. Bad writing is bad writing. We know it when we see it, despite the writer.

And I recommend anyone to check out Batman Chronicles: The Gauntlet. It's about a "test" Robin has to pass for Batman in order to become Robin. Like I said, this has been done before and better and post crisis.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_iOY8YHAQaEk/SMmZoI6403I/AAAAAAAAAck/joGpguQBqCM/s400/Batman+Chronicles+-+The+Gauntlet-00fc.jpg

I am going to buy it just for the cover. Wow!

[Kiryu]

Read it, it wasn't utterly god awful beyond the flashback. Just mediocre. Might take a peak over the next four issues to see Bagley's awesome art. But other then that, not my style.

[Will.S]

Read it, it wasn't utterly god awful beyond the flashback. Just mediocre. Might take a peak over the next four issues to see Bagley's awesome art. But other then that, not my style.
I wasn't all that enamored with it either, I won't be picking it up.

[Ghost Shark]

Am I "all right"?
No, sir, I am not. My son has died.

That one line was awesome. The rest of the book felt kind of "meh" to me. It's like Winnick just had to get the last word in on BftC. It felt tacked on and unnecessary.

But I'll see what else he has in store for us, as I rather enjoyed the return of the Red Hood.

[BloodOps]

Well it wasn't what I was expecting or hoping at all. Too much Dick as Nightwing(though the art was beautiful) but I do see he wants to add a bit of a background to what immeditately happened after BftC.

I wasn't expecting the Superman and Wonder Woman cameo's to be that, I was hoping it was Dick contacting him that he is going to take over as Batman.

The last page was beautiful with Dick as Batman on the spotlight against the Scarecrow. I am going to be mad though if they skip the entire sequence in the next issue and just have Scarecrow knocked out and the Police Department in awe seeing Batman again.

[nepenthes]

maybe the title can be changed to Discussion and a poll built in?


some interesting reactions. i havn't read it yet but dissapointed to hear that Superman and Wonder Womans appearances don't involve them meeting with Dickbat for the first time....:mad:

[Will44]

I am going to be mad though if they skip the entire sequence in the next issue and just have Scarecrow knocked out and the Police Department in awe seeing Batman again.

But that's typical Winick, and why I don't like his work.

[md62]

I thought the issue was pretty good. I wish DC had released this last week & Batman & Robin this week since it does "fit" between BTFC #3 & B & R #1. I thought Winick did a good job tying up some plot threads & showing how Dick & Alfred dealt with the situation. I wish Tim had been shown a bit more but his POV was shown over in Red Robin #1. And I have to agree Alfred's line to Superman about his "son" dying was perfect. Benes art was great in this issue. I think he is a good artist but get annoyed by all his cheesecake poses. He seemed to avoid them this issue with the scenes that Wonder Woman was in.

[Kiryu]

I thought the issue was pretty good. I wish DC had released this last week & Batman & Robin this week since it does "fit" between BTFC #3 & B & R #1. I thought Winick did a good job tying up some plot threads & showing how Dick & Alfred dealt with the situation. I wish Tim had been shown a bit more but his POV was shown over in Red Robin #1. And I have to agree Alfred's line to Superman about his "son" dying was perfect. Benes art was great in this issue. I think he is a good artist but get annoyed by all his cheesecake poses. He seemed to avoid them this issue with the scenes that Wonder Woman was in.

I disagree with this. While chronologically it fits, it doesn't really add anything to B&R and is in fact tons and tons of exposition that explains but doesn't enhance the experience.

Also, Batman and Robin is a better story for a reader just jumping on the bandwagon. This issue is filled with tons and tons of references to previous stories and endless exposition. The exposition/references is just crammed into speech bubbles rather then woven into the story and offers no subtly in it's storytelling. Batman and Robin requires the bare minimum knowledge of anything to get into.

Funny how when Morrison references old stories vaguely it made it "Incomprensible" and "insane". But Winick sticks it into heavy handed speech bubbles and it's cool.

[DonC]

One issue in and Winnick is using the Scarecrow again. This has me worried.

[NeoStar9X]

I can't wait to read this. I really enjoyed Winick's work on Batman during Under the Hood and can't wait to see what he does now. So far it sounds decent but then again I'm trying not to read to much into the details but just the overall impressions.

[marvelprince]

I disagree with this. While chronologically it fits, it doesn't really add anything to B&R and is in fact tons and tons of exposition that explains but doesn't enhance the experience.

We see Nightwing come to the realization that there needs to be a Batman, which is better than him just deciding to be Batman so Jason won't be Batman. We get the rationale as for why he moves to the penthouse, and even bits on his relationship with Damien.

Also, Batman and Robin is a better story for a reader just jumping on the bandwagon.

It should be. Its a first issue afterall.

This issue is filled with tons and tons of references to previous stories and endless exposition.

Of course it references previous stories. Its a Battle for the Cowl Epilogue.

The exposition/references is just crammed into speech bubbles rather then woven into the story and offers no subtly in it's storytelling.

Eh, thats subjective

Batman and Robin requires the bare minimum knowledge of anything to get into.

Again, being that its a #1 issue it should read this way.

Funny how when Morrison references old stories vaguely it made it "Incomprensible" and "insane". But Winick sticks it into heavy handed speech bubbles and it's cool.

Well in this instance its cool cause it was a great issue. Your points for detraction make no sense. It reads like a continuation? Well thats cause it is one. Tons of exposition? Its SUPPOSED to be an introspective look at Dick as Batman. Most exposition will be from him just thinking.

I get that you don't like Winnick's style or writing, but don't knock the book for things it doesn't even claim to be.

[CocktailXYZ]

I really enjoyed this, particularly Nightwing's reluctance at first to don the mantle and final acceptance that he needs to be his own Batman instead of not-Bruce.

I hadn't warmed up to Dick in the Batman role yet, but he's already beginning to grow on me.

And on the subject of debate, I thought all the exposition added applicable weight to the story that was being told in a positive manner.

[Doc Goblin]

This was a good issue abd a giid epilogue to Battle for the Cowl. It made me wish Winick had written Battle for the Cowl. because he does a better job at hitting the emotion and character moments. But it was still nice to see some of the moments BftC glossed over like the news of Bruce's death, what there was of his funeral, Dick taking Damian under his wing and moving out of the cave.

I suppose there were a couple of disappointing surprises. I was expecting Dick to already be Batman at the start of this issue. And that the meeting with Superman and Wonder Woman wouldn't be a flashback. Neither were big deals to me though. I would have preferred otherwise, but I still enjoyed the issue.

I'm amused Winick started his Batman run again with the Scarecrow. I wonder if that was just a little thing he did on purpose.

I actually love Winick's Alfred. Alfred was a treat throughout Winick's first run of Batman and he was great here too. Winick didn't do a bad job with Damian either. I wondered how much we'd see of the kid in this.

I'd say I enjoyed this just as much as Batman & Robin. Neither really did anything that blew me away, but I enjoyed them well enough. It's good to have Winick's focus on character in Batman. because that's not something I ever expect to see much of from Morrison.

[BloodOps]

One issue in and Winnick is using the Scarecrow again. This has me worried.

Haha yeah. As a fan of Scarecrow I didn't mind though.

[HopeLantern]

"You got served!"

That wasn't even in the vernacular of the time period that Dick was a fresh Robin. People didn't start saying that actually until about three years ago. Winick completely screwed up young Dick Grayson's voice and that made the rest of the issue simply hard for me to swallow. But that was one hell of a cover Daniel's drew though. I'll give it a few more issues but I think I finally understood some of the hate directed towards Winick with this issue. And I speak as a fan of "Under the Hood".

[Jorriss]

Wow, I loved this issue. It's a bit late as has been added, but man it bridges the gap perfectly.

[vickvega]

as long as dick grayson doesnt catch space aids or quit crime-fighting to join real world/road rules challenge, it will be better than what I expected. In all seriousness it wasnt bad, it just wasnt good either. Too much crying. especially since WE know he's not dead, and the more interesting plot, is dick grayson investigating what happened to Bruce further.

[Kiryu]

We see Nightwing come to the realization that there needs to be a Batman, which is better than him just deciding to be Batman so Jason won't be Batman. We get the rationale as for why he moves to the penthouse, and even bits on his relationship with Damien.



It should be. Its a first issue afterall.



Of course it references previous stories. Its a Battle for the Cowl Epilogue.



Eh, thats subjective



Again, being that its a #1 issue it should read this way.



Well in this instance its cool cause it was a great issue. Your points for detraction make no sense. It reads like a continuation? Well thats cause it is one. Tons of exposition? Its SUPPOSED to be an introspective look at Dick as Batman. Most exposition will be from him just thinking.

I get that you don't like Winnick's style or writing, but don't knock the book for things it doesn't even claim to be.

I'm saying it handles it's purpose poorly. I'm quite aware of the "mission statement" for the book. The exposition is excessive and heavy handy and detracts from the quality. That's my personal feeling on it. There are plenty of ways to express the links to the previous stories without having every character speak like robots explaining their each and every motivation aloud for the reader. Maybe that's some folks cup of tea, not mine.

B&R confers all the same information without the characters literally explaining it out loud and kicking me completely out of the story. This adds more fluff that doesn't make the information deeper or give it more meaning. It's just irrelevant information. At least that's my personal take on it, some folk like that sort of thing and enjoy learning those tidbits.

[lawman]

I disagree with this. While chronologically it fits, it doesn't really add anything to B&R and is in fact tons and tons of exposition that explains but doesn't enhance the experience.

Also, Batman and Robin is a better story for a reader just jumping on the bandwagon. This issue is filled with tons and tons of references to previous stories and endless exposition. The exposition/references is just crammed into speech bubbles rather then woven into the story and offers no subtly in it's storytelling. Batman and Robin requires the bare minimum knowledge of anything to get into.

Funny how when Morrison references old stories vaguely it made it "Incomprensible" and "insane". But Winick sticks it into heavy handed speech bubbles and it's cool.
I'm saying it handles it's purpose poorly. I'm quite aware of the "mission statement" for the book. The exposition is excessive and heavy handy and detracts from the quality. That's my personal feeling on it. There are plenty of ways to express the links to the previous stories without having every character speak like robots explaining their each and every motivation aloud for the reader. Maybe that's some folks cup of tea, not mine.

B&R confers all the same information without the characters literally explaining it out loud and kicking me completely out of the story. This adds more fluff that doesn't make the information deeper or give it more meaning. It's just irrelevant information. At least that's my personal take on it, some folk like that sort of thing and enjoy learning those tidbits.
To each his own. For the record: I really didn't care for Winick's previous run on Batman (especially the return of Jason), and for that matter I wasn't a huge fan of Morrison's recent run either (especially the introduction of Damian). So my expectations relaunch-wise were pretty low.

But as it turns out, I enjoyed B&R #1. The tone was a little uneven, but it has potential. And I enjoyed Batman #687 even more. Winick seems to have stepped up his writing to a more sophisticated level here; it's more attentive to detail, not as slapdash as much of his previous work. What you call "tons and tons" of "excessive" exposition, I call a smooth transition from the last story (BTFC). And what you call the "fluff" of characters "explaining their... motivation," I found to be some effective, genuinely moving character moments—better than anything in BFTC, and certainly better than anything I expect from Morrison.

Morrison's all about intricate plots and story structure and symbolism, but most of his work is anything but character-driven. In his recent work he also tends to just throw events at the reader, as if to say "make sense of it for yourself, because I'm not going to do it for you." (And it's downright quixotic the way he references details from stories told decades ago, but ignores what other current writers are doing in the stories going on all around him right now.)

Personally I enjoy a good, methodically told, emotionally genuine, character-driven story. So far, that's what Winick seems to be offering here.Even if Morrison's B&R might be better "for a reader just jumping on" by requiring "the bare minimum of knowledge"—so what? I've been reading these characters for years, so I certainly don't qualify as that hypothetical reader. I suspect very few of us on these boards do. Do you?

[joemagnum611]

Liked the issue a lot. We all knew that Dick had to become Batman but I liked the fact that we got to see the process from Nightwing to him putting on the cowl. In one issue none the less. Lets just hope that Winick builds on that and we can move on. What I'm interested in is not so much him writing Batman & Robin together but when he has Dick go out on his own trying to be his own Batman

[SpideyZERO]

The story is not what I've expected, but I enjoy this issue vey much. I think it takes place between the last few pages of BFTC. The issue tells more about Dick's feelings on Bruce's death and how he finally determines to take up the mantel. Now I really wish Winnick wrote all the BFTC instead of Tony Daniels.

Really looking forward to the next issue, and Bagley!

[pariah-1972]

Benes looks like he is trying to dial down the muscles a bit in some places and i liked the grittier look in this.

I'm a bit confused why this book is so out of continuity with Batman and Robin.

[marvelprince]

I'm saying it handles it's purpose poorly. I'm quite aware of the "mission statement" for the book. The exposition is excessive and heavy handy and detracts from the quality. That's my personal feeling on it. There are plenty of ways to express the links to the previous stories without having every character speak like robots explaining their each and every motivation aloud for the reader. Maybe that's some folks cup of tea, not mine.

To each his own. Pointless to argue about tastes.

B&R confers all the same information without the characters literally explaining it out loud and kicking me completely out of the story.

This I don't get. Did we get the reason why Dick wanted to move to the penthouse instead of the batcave? They just showed us that Dick had moved by packing up. We actually get insight as to why he decides to put on the cowl, why he decides there has to be a Batman plus we see the "funeral" being held for Bruce.

This adds more fluff that doesn't make the information deeper or give it more meaning. It's just irrelevant information. At least that's my personal take on it, some folk like that sort of thing and enjoy learning those tidbits.

This information, while not essential, gives more answers to questions some have asked and I for one enjoyed learning them. Did I have to know why Dick moved to the penthouse to enjoy Batman and Robin? Nope, but it was a piece of information that I enjoyed knowing.

To each his own. For the record: I really didn't care for Winick's previous run on Batman (especially the return of Jason), and for that matter I wasn't a huge fan of Morrison's recent run either (especially the introduction of Damian). So my expectations relaunch-wise were pretty low.

But as it turns out, I enjoyed B&R #1. The tone was a little uneven, but it has potential. And I enjoyed Batman #687 even more. Winick seems to have stepped up his writing to a more sophisticated level here; it's more attentive to detail, not as slapdash as much of his previous work. What you call "tons and tons" of "excessive" exposition, I call a smooth transition from the last story (BTFC). And what you call the "fluff" of characters "explaining their... motivation," I found to be some effective, genuinely moving character moments—better than anything in BFTC, and certainly better than anything I expect from Morrison.

Morrison's all about intricate plots and story structure and symbolism, but most of his work is anything but character-driven. In his recent work he also tends to just throw events at the reader, as if to say "make sense of it for yourself, because I'm not going to do it for you." (And it's downright quixotic the way he references details from stories told decades ago, but ignores what other current writers are doing in the stories going on all around him right now.)

Personally I enjoy a good, methodically told, emotionally genuine, character-driven story. So far, that's what Winick seems to be offering here.Even if Morrison's B&R might be better "for a reader just jumping on" by requiring "the bare minimum of knowledge"—so what? I've been reading these characters for years, so I certainly don't qualify as that hypothetical reader. I suspect very few of us on these boards do. Do you?

Nice comparison of Winnick and Morrison's writing. While I did enjoy Batman and Robin more than this issue of Batman I get that each book is taking a different approach to its characters.

[Alexx1]

It seems DC should have released Batman #687 last week and then released B&R along with Red Robin this week. Seems it would have been more effective from tone perspective as this book follows up the events and feelings immediately after BFTC and it seems in B&R, Dick is fully into his new persona!
Out of the three books so far, I enjoyed RR the most!

[Choppa]

This issue pissed me off. More setup?? Wtf was the point of BftC then? And we still haven't gotten a compelling explanation for Dick wanting to be Batman. And yeah no one said "you got served" 10 years ago.

[Jimmy'sFriend]

This is my review...

Batman #687

Writer Judd Winick takes the reins of the Batman flagship with a new hero wearing the cape and cowl. With last week’s fantastic first issue of “Batman and Robin”, I wasn’t expecting much form this one. What could be done with this title that would be relevant?

Glad to say, I was very pleasantly surprised. It fits more naturally between “Battle for the Cowl” and “Batman and Robin” #1. Dick Grayson gives his reasons for abandoning the Batcave for a new base of operations. Winick provides the context for Alfred and Dick Grayson to mourn Bruce and prepare for the future. The emotions were natural and unforced in their honesty. The humanity behind the tights and capes was authentic and tragic, yet didn’t linger too long with the tissues.

Ed Benes draws a sharp Batman book. With a number of panels needing to convey raw emotion, Benes is up for the task. Of particular note are the faces of Alfred and Dick as they share their feelings about each other and Bruce. He captures a powerful moment when Dick’s reflection merges with Batman’s cowl. It makes you want to clap or cheer.

Batman’s main title is in good hands with this creative team. The final panel is a true work of art, Batman poised ready to protect and serve - and scare the shit out of the bad guys.

4 out of 5

[Sn4tcH]

The author said in interviews past that his first story was going to be his take on a Battle For The Cowl type story. I don't understand why people are so upset that it covers familiar ground. He warned us...

Anyway, I thought it was okay. He kept on making it a lil dusty in the room for me. We've been beaten over the head for a few months about how sad everyone is because Batman is dead. From the empty chair in Nightwing, to Bruces farewell in Outsiders, we've seen it. But he still got me when Superman asks Alfred if he's okay.

Otherwise the issue is a lot of moping around, (Though I disagree that Dick was out of character in the flashback) and build up to the final page. It felt like a bridge issues between BFTC and what will be the ongoing Batman story, and for that it's at least kind of important. I can't wait for the next issue.

[Karl O'Neill]

One issue in and Winnick is using the Scarecrow again. This has me worried.

Please no scarebeast!

I have still to read my copy of this issue!

[Kiryu]

To each his own. Morrison's all about intricate plots and story structure and symbolism, but most of his work is anything but character-driven. In his recent work he also tends to just throw events at the reader, as if to say "make sense of it for yourself, because I'm not going to do it for you." (And it's downright quixotic the way he references details from stories told decades ago, but ignores what other current writers are doing in the stories going on all around him right now.)

Doom Patrol, Animal Man, All Star Superman? Those are some of the most character driven stories in comics. We can agree to disagree if you want to tell me they aren't. We can argue from heaven to hell about if he's confusing or what not, I've personally never needed a road map to understand a story of his just fine and as such find the massive and in my opinion of course poorly written dialogue to bog the story down. There's exposition and there's poorly done exposition, which is what I see in this book.

Personally I enjoy a good, methodically told, emotionally genuine, character-driven story. So far, that's what Winick seems to be offering here.Even if Morrison's B&R might be better "for a reader just jumping on" by requiring "the bare minimum of knowledge"—so what? I've been reading these characters for years, so I certainly don't qualify as that hypothetical reader. I suspect very few of us on these boards do. Do you?

Absolutely not, and I've always been of the mind "Eff the new reader, don't sacrifice the story". I feel Morrison was able to make his book new reader friendly and additionally continue his very detailed and long wrong on the book. More importantly, he didn't have his characters stand around and explain what happened in every book leading up to this and then end with some cliche overly posed "NEW BATMAN" page.

Additionally, having theinformation presented makes Morrison's story read way better for me. It doesn't need a page long speech about Dick "Being his own Batman", it just shows him doing just that, and it works better. Beyond that, like I said, Winick's exposition is hack work, completely heavy handed, and not at all insightful of anything. You think different? Cool. It's your time and money. Enjoy the book. I read this one issue off the shelf, thought it was garbage. The only attention this title well get from me going forward is peaking at Bag's art. And I am thankfully not masochistic so I'm not going to torture myself by reading this book going forward. Nor will I be posting in the threads for the following issues and I'm not going to continue a pissing match about which book is better for the next year when I have a fantastic book that gets me excited about comics again. So cheers

This information, while not essential, gives more answers to questions some have asked and I for one enjoyed learning them. Did I have to know why Dick moved to the penthouse to enjoy Batman and Robin? Nope, but it was a piece of information that I enjoyed knowing.

Well there you go, taste again. I had everything I needed from B&R. Did Dick wax and wane about his reasoning and motivation for leaving? No, thankfully. But I thought it was pretty obvious why he would leave the manor and the cave, because it was part of Bruce's Batman and he is gone.

Same with Dick's speech about being his own Batman. I prefer him actually y'know, BEING his own Batman to him talking about it. The "Whhuups I might drop ya" gag, eating in the Bat-Cave. Even explaining Damian's character was done smoothly, effeciently, and fully in B&R my opinion.

Again, it's not simply the information given in the books that turns me off, but the manner in which Winick poorly(in my opinion) presents them. And again, that's taste. So we can call this a day. It was fun.

[pariah-1972]

This issue pissed me off. More setup?? Wtf was the point of BftC then? And we still haven't gotten a compelling explanation for Dick wanting to be Batman. And yeah no one said "you got served" 10 years ago.I's been explained in one of the books that he is taking on the Batman outfit to put the criminals that have been causing the ruckus in gotham on notice as it where and they are more intimidated by Bats than Nightwing.

[Lemurion]

I bought it; I read it. I loved the "my son has died" line.

On the whole I wasn't thrilled with the issue: Part of it was that I really feel it would have read better before B&R #1 than it did after. Reading it when I did, I felt that it wasn't really adding anything new. I also wanted to see Clark and Diana interacting with Dick in the Bat-suit, which I didn't get.

It was good - but after B&R #1 it was a letdown. It wasn't as good and it brought back the "why can't they just let him be Batman and be done with it" feeling I was getting toward the end of BftC. It read more like a retelling than an epilogue.

I'd say 3.5 or so; but that's not so good right after B&R #1's 5.

[AJM]

I enjoyed it, it was no better or worse than i expected. It works as a pretty good companion piece to Batman And Robin and makes the entire BFTC event completely redundant. I'm certainly sticking with it to see where it goes next.

[pressdarlings]

One issue in and Winnick is using the Scarecrow again. This has me worried.

Hahaha. I know.

I dug this issue quite a bit. But I really am tired of seeing the Scarecrow trying to gas everyone. Same ol', same ol'...

[pressdarlings]

Benes looks like he is trying to dial down the muscles a bit in some places and i liked the grittier look in this.

I'm a bit confused why this book is so out of continuity with Batman and Robin.

It's not. It just takes place before Batman and Robin and after BFTC.

[HaroldAllnut]

I was pleased, overall. I'm not gonna keep up with this title, as I prefer to keep it simple with the Morrison/Quitely book and nothing else, but I could see myself occasionally picking up issues of Winnick's Batman. Maybe I'll pick up a trade.

[DonC]

Hahaha. I know.

I dug this issue quite a bit. But I really am tired of seeing the Scarecrow trying to gas everyone. Same ol', same ol'...


As long as he doesn't turn into the Scarebeast we might be okay.

[numberONE]

I liked this issue but it seemed like a re-make of Tony Daniel's BftC story.

[Perkele]

No major complaints but no real compliments from me either. It really was a bunch of exposition, and most of it was nice to know, but as some have stated already, this really should have come out before B&R. Even though some exposition was nice, it felt kind of unnecessary, maybe even a bit tiresome. I'll give the Bagley issues a try, not just for the art, but Winnick will have a chance to try and tell a story that doesn't feel like a recap of previous issues that didn't really add much to the overall story. Here's hoping he can really stretch his wings and tell a story with similar energy as B&R while still offering a bit more interesting introspection.

[Captain Jim]

I'm a bit confused why this book is so out of continuity with Batman and Robin.

It seems DC should have released Batman #687 last week and then released B&R along with Red Robin this week.

I really feel it would have read better before B&R #1 than it did after.

DC has said that they consider B&R to be the flagship Batman title. I think they wanted the first release to be the flagship book. Morrison wanted to jump right into the middle of the new status quo and not spend time expaining continuity issues. I can understand that. So we get the flagship book the first week, and then the continuity explained the following week. I had no problem with this and actually thought it worked well to release this the same week as Red Robin.

[CYOTI]

I liked this issue but it seemed like a re-make of Tony Daniel's BftC story. Probably because elements of BftC came from Winnick apparently.

[marvelprince]

DC has said that they consider B&R to be the flagship Batman title. I think they wanted the first release to be the flagship book. Morrison wanted to jump right into the middle of the new status quo and not spend time expaining continuity issues. I can understand that. So we get the flagship book the first week, and then the continuity explained the following week. I had no problem with this and actually thought it worked well to release this the same week as Red Robin.

Honestly I think this issue would've worked much better coming out last week. Most of the complaints I've seen bout this issue are more due to it not adding new, or seemingly coming late. It doesn't detract from the issue for me, but I can understand how it might for others.

[marvelprince]

I liked this issue but it seemed like a re-make of Tony Daniel's BftC story.

Well BFTC was originally Winnick's story. The editors instead though gave the book to Daniel and told him to use the elements he had intended for BFTC in Batman.

[CYOTI]

Which is why elements from Bftc such as the gang war is carried over to Batman.

[Karl O'Neill]

READ IT!

I really really enjouyed this issue. I thought judd nailed the mood and the tone of this new direction perfectly. Alfred's lines were pitch perfect and I didn;t come across any curse words so he wasn't written out of character as some peope stated earlier in the Thread.

It's truely a great time to be a batman/dick grayson fan. Hooray. lets hope judd can maintain this quality of writing over the course of his run.

I Only had one problem with this issue. THE ART.

Ed benes anatomy is horrible, Anyone else agreed?

****ing muscles coming out of everywhere.

Thank God bagley is onboard next issues.

[mosdef]

I had a problem with the art too, he drew Dick too musculear in the bat suit other then that I thought it was a pretty good issue.

[TeamED209]

LOL... Really the guys at DC only rare about sales and RIP flew off the rack like hotcakes...

The reason Morrison got his own title is because they wanted to capitalized off of his success with a shiny new number1...

Dc,marvel and anyone else who isn't providing free entertainment are companies who want to make a profit so obviously they're going to capitalize on high sales....

[Vic Vega]

Not a Winick fanboy by ANY means, but I liked this issue.

For one thing he got Dick/Nightwing's voice correct.

What I REALLY don't want out of this whole thing is a Dick that acts like Bruce while suited up. Morrison's Dick didn't read much like Dick to me(the one problem I had with B&R 1).

Dick's ambivalence about actually putting on the cowl is well done. This has been an issue for Dick for a while now in the Nightwing series.

The Wayne foundation Batcave is a nick callback to the 70's stories where Bruce moves the operation to the city at Dick's suggestion.

[Seraku]

Liked this issue a hell of a lot, I was expecting it to be terrible but was pleasantly surprised.

Only major fault I had was the ending sequence.

But then again it wouldn't be the internet without people nitpicking.

[Will44]

The Wayne foundation Batcave is a nick callback to the 70's stories where Bruce moves the operation to the city at Dick's suggestion.

Not to completely sidetrack the thread, but I recall this being why Batman moved in the late 70's also. However, I can't find the issue/reference. Can someone help me out with that?

Oh, and I still didn't like the issue.

[MTL76]

I liked Alfred's line. "No, I am not all right. My son has died."

[Karl O'Neill]

Loved the issue but hated the last page art pose.

Dick was too bulky.


ed benes! suck my jargon!

[Vic Vega]

Not to completely sidetrack the thread, but I recall this being why Batman moved in the late 70's also. However, I can't find the issue/reference. Can someone help me out with that?

Oh, and I still didn't like the issue.

I P.M.'ed you.

Hope it helps.

[numberONE]

I'm glad there's going to be a new artist next issue. It's not Tony Daniel?

[Alexx1]

I'm glad there's going to be a new artist next issue. It's not Tony Daniel?

I'm kinda missing Daniel's art to be honest. I wonder what he's working on next. Things seem pretty quite on the Daniel front.

[Fatguy]

This was much, much better than what I've come to expect from Winick. This issue and Red Robin felt more like what I was hoping for out of Battle for the Cowl than the actual mini did. I'm really excited for the Bat World right now.

(Except Streets of Gotham. That book seems superfulous.)

[marvelprince]

I'm glad there's going to be a new artist next issue. It's not Tony Daniel?

Mark Bagley is taking over art duties for the rest of the arc.

[wolvie616]

so no superman or wonder woman then?

[pariah-1972]

so no superman or wonder woman then?

They made a cameo...

[gocryemokid]

I think the flashback is what made this issue very good. Loved to see bruce again and dick as robin.

[Captain Jim]

Mark Bagley is taking over art duties for the rest of the arc.

Actually, this was a stand alone story. The next four issues are an arc and Bagley will be doing them.

[AJM]

Not to completely sidetrack the thread, but I recall this being why Batman moved in the late 70's also. However, I can't find the issue/reference. Can someone help me out with that?

Oh, and I still didn't like the issue.

Didn't Batman move to the penthouse when Dick left home to go to college? I can't remember whose idea it was.

[Jim Thompson]

Didn't Batman move to the penthouse when Dick left home to go to college? I can't remember whose idea it was.He did. Operated out of the penthouse during much of the 70s, I think.

[marvelprince]

Actually, this was a stand alone story. The next four issues are an arc and Bagley will be doing them.

Ah. That makes much more sense. Thanks.

[Spenser for Hire]

Really liked this issue. Great follow up to Battle for the Cowl. I always have like the way Judd Winick writes Batman, and with Dick Grayson under the cowl, I believe Judd will shine even more. I am looking foreward to Mark Bagley's run. Now I can't wait to get Streets of Gotham.

[earl]

I'm sure quite a bit of this issue was stuff that editorial wanted to get shown. It was a transitional data dump issue with an artist doing a single issue. People would have complained if they just launched into the next storyline with no exposition ever being shown. And in doing that task, I thought 687 was alright. Either way, it is kind of unfair to compare this issue to Batman and Robin. Grant Morrison isn't interested in this kind of stuff and Frank Quitely is a very stylish artist. It does kind of book end a bit on Batman 217 when Dick goes to college, Bruce closes the Batcave and moves downtown.

I also agree that the modern continuity stories of Batman and the original Robin are a place that DC could really start to explore. There has been a couple of hundred of issues about 'year one' or before Robin shows up, but not as many after wards. The character Dick Grayson hasn't been Robin since the 80s, he hasn't been paired regularly with Batman since the late 60s, so I think it would be good to see that explored. It would also be a chance to do some evergreen Batman stories if successful and would be able to throw a bone to people who are not all that hot on someone else being Batman.

That being said, with Jason Todd's complete re-write of his origin after Crisis and summary demise, there are some things in that story that would be interesting for someone to explore.

Either way, I am kind of looking forward to seeing Mark Bagley do some Batman next month. We'll see...

[Jake V]

Actually, this was a stand alone story. The next four issues are an arc and Bagley will be doing them.

Oh thank god. This first issue had some of the most bland, godawful art I've seen in recent comics.

[Jake V]

I'm sure quite a bit of this issue was stuff that editorial wanted to get shown. It was a transitional data dump issue with an artist doing a single issue. People would have complained if they just launched into the next storyline with no exposition ever being shown. /snip/

Really? Did you see the reaction to Batman and Robin, which did exactly that?

[Will44]

Didn't Batman move to the penthouse when Dick left home to go to college? I can't remember whose idea it was.
It happened in Batman 212, but I can't find a good synopsis, and it's way too old to track down and read. :(

[Harding Prime]

I'm sure quite a bit of this issue was stuff that editorial wanted to get shown. It was a transitional data dump issue with an artist doing a single issue. People would have complained if they just launched into the next storyline with no exposition ever being shown. And in doing that task, I thought 687 was alright. Either way, it is kind of unfair to compare this issue to Batman and Robin. Grant Morrison isn't interested in this kind of stuff and Frank Quitely is a very stylish artist.

Idk why Morrison wouldn't be interested in doing the transition issue of the story he has been working on for the past 3 years...

[90'sCartoonMan]

Huh, well, I can't say I didn't ask for this, the stuff Battle for the Cowl glossed over and Batman and Robin skipped past. I did like it, though, it had some pretty good moments. I'm not a huge fan of Judd Winick, though, and with all these new Bat-titles coming out, I'm going to have to decide which are worth following. If this title doesn't have a unique and interesting voice, I may have to drop it.


I Only had one problem with this issue. THE ART.

Ed benes anatomy is horrible, Anyone else agreed?

Generally I agree, although he was a bit more subdued (and easier to look at) than he usually is. Heck, his Black Canary here was better than he's ever drawn her.

[nepenthes]

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2009/06/25/before-justice-league-theres-bagley-on-batman/

New Bagley pencils up at The Source

[AJM]

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2009/06/25/before-justice-league-theres-bagley-on-batman/

New Bagley pencils up at The Source

I think they look terrible. I'm willing to give it a chance but it'll have to be incredibly special to compete with Detective and Batman And Robin.

[Jake V]

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2009/06/25/before-justice-league-theres-bagley-on-batman/

New Bagley pencils up at The Source
Certainly a HUGE improvement over Benes.

I really like all the tweaks to the costume.

[Will.S]

Certainly a HUGE improvement over Benes.

I really like all the tweaks to the costume.
I'm thinking about just getting the Bagley arc and then bowing out provided that it's also well written.

[Jake V]

I'm thinking about just getting the Bagley arc and then bowing out provided that it's also well written.

Depends on who takes over after Bagley, but I might do the same.

[SpideyZERO]

I really can't wait for the Bagley's art!!!

[lawman]

It's fascinating (and baffling) to me how people are celebrating Bagley's art here, even as (presumably different) people are excoriating it over in the discussion of the new JLA announcement. (Personally, I think he's pretty good!)

[Hall of Doom]

I was pleasantly surprised by Winick's return to Batman and look forward to seeing how he handles Dick's transformation into the new Dark Knight. Benes' art was pretty solid with the exception of the last page, I expected Dick to look leaner/less muscle bound in the bat suit than he was depicted here. I have been impressed with Bagley's pencil work shown in previews of an upcoming issue, here's hoping both creators can reach new heights while exploring this era of the Dick Grayson Batman.