batman rip and last rites

[Bat_Fan2232]

i just went to my local comic book store ive been out of the swing for awhile and picked up everything they had for rip and last rites. I just dont know what order to go.

RIP i have

Nightwings issues- 147,149,150


Robin issues- 175,176

Detective issues -846

and batman issues - 679, and 681


Last Rites i have

Nightwing- 151 and 153

Robin -183

Detective- 851,852 and 853

and Batman - 682,683,684

any help would be awesome

[Calvin Government]

Pretty sure this gets it all. (http://teatimebrutality.blogspot.com/2009/02/batman-slideshows-and-sudoku.html)

[Captain Jim]

Some of it may be covered here > http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=255512

[Bat_Fan2232]

thanks both of you guys after reading all this issues im just lost has battle for the cowl began yet?

[RonnieThunderbolts]

thanks both of you guys after reading all this issues im just lost has battle for the cowl began yet?

Battle for the Cowl ended last month, so every issue of it should be available.

[Mundungus]

And unless your impetus for picking up the back issues was because of Batman and Robin, the first issue just hit shelves so that's where Morrison's story picks up.

[yadadaimhollaing]

Is final crisis 6 necessary to finish last rites? I was thumbing through the story and saw in the last issue it said to be continued in final crisis. Now i dont really have a reason to read finil crisis whole story because the only thing im interested in is the batman bits and pieces.

When should battle for the cowl be read, right after last rites?

I bumped this older thread instead of creating a new thread. Sorry if you would prefer making a new thread instead of old threads being brought back.

[Teatime Brutality]

Is final crisis 6 necessary to finish last rites? I was thumbing through the story and saw in the last issue it said to be continued in final crisis. Now i dont really have a reason to read finil crisis whole story because the only thing im interested in is the batman bits and pieces.

Morrison's 'Last Rites' two-parter is an odd beast in that it serves the plot of Final Crisis but not its themes, and serves the themes of his Batman run but not its plot.

It's hard to advise you really, but it probably is worth following the story into FC#6 and #7.

When should battle for the cowl be read, right after last rites?


Battle for the Cowl should be read when deadly hyper-evolved bookworms have consumed all other available literature, and not a moment before. If you're looking for things that're skippable, this is far more so than Final Crisis.

With regards to "Does it come right after Last Rites?", then that's a bit complicated since 'Last Rites' was never really a story, just a piece of branding. Some 'Last Rites' issues have to occur before Final Crisis, some after, some during. But the simple answer is that Cowl certainly does come after Rites.

My most recent attempts to work out an order for all this (which I see someone has been flattering enough to link to above...ta!) looks like the below...

(Reasoning here (http://teatimebrutality.blogspot.com/2009/02/batman-slideshows-and-sudoku.html), here (http://teatimebrutality.blogspot.com/2009/04/these-things-are-fun-for-person-writing.html) and here (http://teatimebrutality.blogspot.com/2009/06/this-ones-for-cheese-fiend.html). Much of this is counter-intuitive, and some could be controversial)

PART ONE - BATMAN BEATS THE DEVIL.

* DCU #0
* Detective Comics #846-50 ('Heart of Hush')
* Batman #676-8 ('RIP' parts 1-3)
* Robin #175-6
* Batman #679-681 ('RIP' parts 4-6)

PART TWO - BATMAN'S MISSING FOR A BIT AND EVERYONE OVER-REACTS.

* Batman and the Outsiders #11-14
* Nightwing #147-151 ('The Great Leap') - concurrent with early chapters of 'Search for a Hero'
* Robin #177-82 ('Search for a Hero')
* Dectective #851, Batman #684 ('The Last Days of Gotham') - concurrent with later chapters of 'Search for a Hero'

PART THREE - BATMAN KILLS GOD.

* That flashback sequence from #683
* Final Crisis #1-3
* Superman Beyond #1-2
* Final Crisis #4
* Batman #682-3
* Final Crisis #5-7

PART FOUR - WHATEVER HAPPENED TO THE CAPED CRUSADER?

* Batman #686
* Detective Comics #853

PART FIVE - BATMAN APPEARS DEAD FOR A BIT AND EVERYONE OVER-REACTS.

* Nightwing #152-3
* Detective #852, Batman #685 ('Reconstruction/Catspaw')
* Batman and the Outsiders Special #1
* The Outsiders #15-20 ('The Deep')
* Robin #183

PART SIX - EVERYONE BATTLES OVER CAWL, A TRADITIONAL WELSH LAMB AND LEEK STEW.

* Oracle: The Cure #1-3
* Secret Six #9
* Gotham Gazette: Batman Dead?
* Battle for the Cowl #1
* Man-Bat #1, Commissioner Gordon #1 and Azrael: Death's Dark Knight #1-3 (all concurrent with the above)
* Battle for the Cowl #2
* The Underground #1/The Network #1
* Battle for the Cowl #3
* Arkham Asylum #1
* Gotham Gazette: Batman Alive!

[Captain Jim]

Is final crisis 6 necessary to finish last rites? I was thumbing through the story and saw in the last issue it said to be continued in final crisis. Now i dont really have a reason to read finil crisis whole story because the only thing im interested in is the batman bits and pieces.

It's unfortunate that Batman #682-683 (the "Last Rites" issues) were collected with the RIP stories in that collected edition. These two issues have nothing to do with RIP and everything to do with FC. If you're not interested in FC, you should skip these two Batman issues. The RIP story and Batman's participation in FC intersect as follows:

Batman #676, JLA #21, FC #1, Batman #677-678, Robin #175-176, Batman #679-681, Requiem #1, FC #2, Batman #682-683, FC #6-7.

When should battle for the cowl be read, right after last rites?

It can be read anytime after FC. FC is somewhat important to this, as it is here that Bruce is thought to be killed. The majority of readers enjoyed BFTC, but there is a small minority who are very vocal in their dislike for it. Reading BFTC is not essential to reading the "Reborn" issues which began this June, but it does set things up for the current status quo.

[Teatime Brutality]

The RIP story and Batman's participation in FC intersect as follows:

Batman #676, JLA #21, FC #1, Batman #677-678, Robin #175-176, Batman #679-681, Requiem #1, FC #2, Batman #682-683, FC #6-7.

Really? I know that's along the lines of what DC laid out in that convention slideshow, but I can't see how it works with what's in the comics.

Batman #683 shows Bruce becoming involved with the Orion investigation after RIP's climactic helicopter crash, and Bruce is involved with the Orion investigation in FC#1.

I'd argue that the overlap is a slightly simpler...

Batman #676-81 (RIP)
Final Crisis #1-4
Batman #682-3 ('Last Rites')
Final Crisis #5-7

..though I notice I've not tried to accomodate JLA #21 in mine. Maybe it's whatever's in that (I can't remember!) that's making us see it differently.

[Captain Jim]

Really? I know that's along the lines of what DC laid out in that convention slideshow, but I can't see how it works with what's in the comics.

Batman #683 shows Bruce becoming involved with the Orion investigation after RIP's climactic helicopter crash, and Bruce is involved with the Orion investigation in FC#1.

I'd argue that the overlap is a slightly simpler...

Batman #676-81 (RIP)
Final Crisis #1-4
Batman #682-3 ('Last Rites')
Final Crisis #5-7

..though I notice I've not tried to accomodate JLA #21 in mine. Maybe it's whatever's in that (I can't remember!) that's making us see it differently.

The placement of FC #1 between Batman 676 & 677 comes directly from Dan Didio, so I figure that makes it official. That surprised me initially too, but when you examine it, it works.

JLA #21 may indeed be relevant, because it leads directly into FC #1, and Batman plays a major part in the story.

Batman actually does not begin his investigation of the Orion murder in FC #1. He only appears in one page in that issue, at a JLA meeting in which Orion's murder is announced.

As far as those two pages you reference from Batman #683, I think you may be reading too much into Alfred's remarks. He says that Batman's last case began with the murder of a god; that doesn't necessarily imply an uninterrupted chain of events.

Here's the thing - JLA #21 and FC #1 have to take place in direct sequence. And it's hard to reconcile Bruce's "I just got a call from the Justice League" (which sounds urgent) with the opening of JLA #21 (which isn't even a full JL meeting, but rather a leisurely gathering of the "trinity"). On the other hand, if JLA #21 & FC #1 fall between 676 & 677, as Didio says (well, he said FC #1, but you have to take JLA with it), then that urgent call from the JLA references Jonn Jonzz's death and leads directly to Requiem (as well as the single page which depicts the funeral in FC #2)

Gosh, I feel like a geek!

[Teatime Brutality]

Oh, there's no need to feel self-concious about this sort of thing. As long as we both remember that all this noodling about is nothing but fun and games, rather than anything of real importance to the story, then it's all good. :)

I freely admit that I'm giving quite a bit of weight to Alfred's remarks, because the alternative is to give the weight to Dan Didio's and I'm just more inclined to go with textual evidence than that from Big Authoritative Outside Sources.

That's just a difference of methodolgy and there's probably no right or wrong here, but I'm always going to go with how a scene reads on the page over what a (somewhat inattentive) group of editors say at a convention panel. The slideshow was thier after-the-fact attempt to impose a chronology; It's not necessarily the most logical or textually supported.

Myself, I read being sat around a table discussing Orion's murder and having prepared in advance a dossier on the situation as being involved in the investigation of Orion's murder.

I also read Batman getting an urgent call from the JLA, followed by Alfred launching into a discussion of how Batman's last case involved the murder of a god, as implying quite heavily that the call was summoning him to involvement in that case. That's clearly how the scene is intended, even though I'm happy to concede there is enough wiggle room to get around that intention if you're looking to fit in things like JLA #21.

But...c'mon, if you were plucking the collections of RIP and FC off your bookshelf and handing them to someone else to read, you wouldn't be advising they flit between the books in some complex dance, would you? You'd advise that they read RIP in its entirity, then the first chunk of FC, then 'Last Rites', then the last chunk of FC. Because the only reason to think the story doesn't run like that comes not from the comics but from convention comments by an editorial staff who have, as your own sticky observes, not been that attentive to how this all might fit together.

[Captain Jim]

I freely admit that I'm giving quite a bit of weight to Alfred's remarks, because the alternative is to give the weight to Dan Didio's and I'm just more inclined to go with textual evidence than that from Big Authoritative Outside Sources.

That's just a difference of methodolgy and there's probably no right or wrong here, but I'm always going to go with how a scene reads on the page over what a (somewhat inattentive) group of editors say at a convention panel.

Different methodology, indeed. I take the word of writers and editors over fan speculation any day. And this wasn't an "off the cuff" remark from Didio; he had clearly put some prior thought into it. And don't forget; Batman's whole involvement (and "death") in FC was his idea. Morrison had intended to go directly from the end of RIP to his B&R book.

Myself, I read being sat around a table discussing Orion's murder and having prepared in advance a dossier on the situation as being involved in the investigation of Orion's murder.

Batman's "detailed dossier" was simply background information on the New Gods, for anyone on the League who hadn't encountered them before. Nothing implied about an investigation here as of yet.

I also read Batman getting an urgent call from the JLA, followed by Alfred launching into a discussion of how Batman's last case involved the murder of a god, as implying quite heavily that the call was summoning him to involvement in that case.

Well, yeah, I do too. But I don't think it necessarily implies that the case hadn't already begun prior to this.

The slideshow was thier after-the-fact attempt to impose a chronology; It's not necessarily the most logical or textually supported.

Not necessarily, but in fact, I believe it is. Even if you don't like my (DC's) chronology, if you check out each of those issues I mentioned, in the sequence I suggested, I think you'll have to agree that it works.

But...c'mon, if you were plucking the collections of RIP and FC off your bookshelf and handing them to someone else to read, you wouldn't be advising they flit between the books in some complex dance, would you?

LOL. FC is already a complex dance! And it's made more so by collecting the LR stories in the RIP volume instead of with FC where they belong. :biggrin:

You'd advise that they read RIP in its entirity, then the first chunk of FC, then 'Last Rites', then the last chunk of FC.

Um, obviously not. You've seen the reading sequence that I recommend. Although not each of these issues is essential reading, of course. Not even FC #3-5 are essential reading for someone who's only interested in Batman's involvement, because he doesn't appear in those issues.

I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree on this, but thanks for the discussion. :smile:

[Teatime Brutality]

Different methodology, indeed. I take the word of writers and editors over fan speculation any day. And this wasn't an "off the cuff" remark from Didio; he had clearly put some prior thought into it.

I can't really look at the way that FC and its tie-ins interact and bring myself to believe that a great deal of prior thought has gone into the chronology.

And fan speculation (although it's not exactly speculation where there isn't an authentic 'truth' to find - neither of us are speculating about What Really Happened - it's more 'fan construction') is all we're left with in cases where the word of editors and writers differ. Ultimately these things do come down to the reader's judgement, when the reader has to select between conflicting intentions.

Morrison said, for example, that RIP was "certainly not happening at the same time as Final Crisis #1. It could be happening a week before or something" (IGN, August 2008 )

You're making a particular choice if you priveledge the editor's slideshow over the writer's certainty. I'm not saying it's a bad choice, there are lots of sensible reasons one might make it, but it's not the only natural one that could be made.


Batman's "detailed dossier" was simply background information on the New Gods, for anyone on the League who hadn't encountered them before. Nothing implied about an investigation here as of yet.

I'm reading what we see in those panels (in which Batman discusses the possibilities of the scenario with his 'crime club' and hands out dossiers) not as implying involvement in an investigation but as constituting involvement in an investigation.


Not necessarily, but in fact, I believe it is. Even if you don't like my (DC's) chronology, if you check out each of those issues I mentioned, in the sequence I suggested, I think you'll have to agree that it works.

Oh yes, I'll freely admit that it works logically. I just think it's a little inelegant and unnecessary. It robs tension from FC to cut away after #1 and plausibility from RIP to imagine it's all occuring while we're on global alert on a sealed Earth. Only teensy bits of tension and plausibility, but teensy bits that we don't have to lose at all if we go with a simpler explanation like, "RIP happened before FC."

So I favour my (Morrison's) chronology which also works logically and offers a slightly cleaner experience of the stories.


Um, obviously not. You've seen the reading sequence that I recommend.

Well, I've seen you recomend it as a chronology, it didn't occur to me that you also thought it'd be the most appropriate reading order.

I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree on this

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on the importance of editorial authority in textual interpretation, but on the less abstract issue of "Where do these comics go?" I could well see myself coming round to your point of view if I ever tried to fit JLA#21 into my chronology.

I'd probably have a sulk about it though. :)

[Teatime Brutality]

*double post*
Sorry.

[yadadaimhollaing]

thanks for breaking the timeline down. how are the battle for teh cowl one shots like batman alive, batman dead, and commisioner gordon?

[Captain Jim]

If you're asking about quality, most of them are pretty decent, though none are really spectacular or indispensible.

The only one-shot I wouldn't recommend is Manbat; I thought that was awful. And the Oracle mini-series actually has nothing to do with BFTC and really isn't all that good either.

The Azrael mini-series, on the other hand, is very nice. Great story and great art.

[ScottyQuick]

Hey, that name, Teatime Brutality.

...

YOU CAN'T HIDE BEHIND YOUR ALIASES ANYMORE :mad:

[Teatime Brutality]

Hey, that name, Teatime Brutality.

...

YOU CAN'T HIDE BEHIND YOUR ALIASES ANYMORE :mad:

Well, no. Not when we're not on a role-play site, Mister Lawliet. ;)

[ScottyQuick]

Well, no. Not when we're not on a role-play site, Mister Lawliet. ;)

Are you scoping out new digs?

[Teatime Brutality]

Are you scoping out new digs?

Dunno. My wild theories seem to get challenged here with logic and evidence.
It's very distressing.