Who Falls To The Left Or Right In The MU?

[Moose967]

In several threads I've made comments that I prefer a hero to apolitical in regards to their social and political views but it seems more and more that is going away. So with that said what characters fall where on the political spectrum? Are there any who are more liberal than anything? Are there some who are more conservative? Are there some who are right down the middle?

What do you guys think?

[Magneto Rocks]

It depends on the issue. And on the metaphor you want to use. Civil War is the most political story of the recent past, but your view on that and its effect on the spectrum is going to depend entirely on whether you see it as more like the Patriot Act or as Gun Registration. (I favour the latter)

Marvel, in general, tends to be tilted left while DC is tilted right. Part of it is that so many Marvel heroes are anti-establishment. (And there's things like the 'no killing!' tradition which could be extended to be anti-death penalty and thus pretty left wing...) Iron Man's probably the biggest exception; he seems to be by and large a moderate right winger (Let's face it, he's a billionaire former arms dealer :p) but it's been said in various comics that he supports gun registration, opposed the Patriot Act and didn't vote for Bush- plus his mentor was a hippy. Hence the 'moderate'.

[The Black Guardian]

In the Cyclops mini several years ago, a caption/thought box came right out and said, "I never vote Republican." Probably no surprise considering the mutant/civil rights thing.

Oh, and characters like Spidey and Daredevil just fall hard, whether it's right or left. :tongue:

[GHalecki]

The line between right and left is getting muddier all of the time, even in real life.

First, so many issues can be argued either for or against by BOTH the right and the left.

Plenty of conservative/libertarians make very solid arguments from their political perspective against things that are traditionally (and incorrectly) labled as "right wing".
The same thing can be said by people who are liberal/socialist.

You have cases where in one city the ACLU (generally seen as a VERY left wing organization) will argue an issue on one side in one city, while arguing the opposite side of the same issue in another city.

You have cases where Rush Limbaugh and Newt Gingritch (possibly two of the most noteworthy members of the conservative movement) disagree dramaticly on particular issues.

[Moose967]

It depends on the issue. And on the metaphor you want to use. Civil War is the most political story of the recent past, but your view on that and its effect on the spectrum is going to depend entirely on whether you see it as more like the Patriot Act or as Gun Registration. (I favour the latter)

Marvel, in general, tends to be tilted left while DC is tilted right. Part of it is that so many Marvel heroes are anti-establishment. (And there's things like the 'no killing!' tradition which could be extended to be anti-death penalty and thus pretty left wing...) Iron Man's probably the biggest exception; he seems to be by and large a moderate right winger (Let's face it, he's a billionaire former arms dealer :p) but it's been said in various comics that he supports gun registration, opposed the Patriot Act and didn't vote for Bush- plus his mentor was a hippy. Hence the 'moderate'.

I always viewed the Civil War as Cap taking the right side of the argument and Stark taking the left, so I suppose the "gun registration" was the side I took. Stark seemed to favor big government, which is a leftist position, while Cap prefered individual rights. But I can see how it can viewed the other way.

I have said it before but I think Cap is a libertarian who has both left and right views. I believe most of the X-Men lean left with the exception of maybe Wolverine. Nick Fury is as conservative as they come it seems in Secret Warriors and in Secret War. In fact Nick Fury is about the only character I can think of that I would classify as falling to the right of the spectrum, oh and Dum Dum Dugan. Bucky, by todays standards, leans right I think too but I can't say for sure. In the Winter Soldier: Winter Kills one shot it seemed that way. Bru writes both Steve and Buck in a way that they can be viewed from either perspective which is the magic of Bru's writing them.

[DeadXMan]

Cap was Right and and the Left had him shot. :wink:


but I agree with moose.

[ViciousX]

Cap was Right and and the Left had him shot. :wink:


but I agree with moose.

Red Skull is not a Lefty.

[GHalecki]

Red Skull is not a Lefty.

An anarchist/nihlist is as far left as you can get.

[DeadXMan]

Red Skull is not a Lefty.

Nazi's were socialists, and which side is embracing that?

[Moose967]

The Skull and Lukin were an interesting mix as they both embodied two different ideologies, but the outcome was the same either way.

And to clarify, when I say right or conservative I don't mean neo-con, but actually conservatism.

[Grapeweasel]

I think Gwen Stacy fell to the right....

*rimshot*

[Craig T. Nelson]

Nazi's were socialists, and which side is embracing that?

Everyone knows Obama is a Nazi.

People seem to come to their own conclusions regarding the political opinions of characters. To lefties Stark is a conservative and to righties he's a liberal. Pretty much entirely because he's been portrayed as less than heroic lately. And of course, "no one from my side would do that."

[Moose967]

Everyone knows Obama is a Nazi.

People seem to come to their own conclusions regarding the political opinions of characters. To lefties Stark is a conservative and to righties he's a liberal. Pretty much entirely because he's been portrayed as less than heroic lately. And of course, "no one from my side would do that."

In terms of how much government he wanted involved with the individual rights of the heroes he was going left, and in regards to his underhanded transactions and war profiterring during the Civil War he was a neo-con.

[Dog]

Nazis were not socialists. They hated and opposed Communist Russia, who were on the Allied side in WWII.

[Gitaroo_Dude]

Nazi's were socialists, and which side is embracing that?

Is this a joke?

No, really.

I'm at a loss for words if you're being serious.

The same guys who violently cracked down on socialists in Germany and shipped them off to concentration camps?

Really?

[Moose967]

So what about Nick Fury? Do you guys, like me, think that he falls to the right along with Dum Dum?

Spider-Man is a lock for the left.

Osborn is a Neo-Con.

USAgent: Does anyone really need that one explained?

Thor? Or can that one even be decided?

Who are some other characters you think?

[Gitaroo_Dude]

I don't think many Marvel characters can simply be categorized onto either side of the political spectrum. Mostly, because different writers have used these characters and brought their own biases with them, and they've probably carried over onto the characters.

Honestly, I'd like to think most of the characters are similar to guys like Hunter S. Thompson, who opposed gun restrictions (i.e. Right) but also opposed the hysteria about drugs and opposed the police state (i.e. Left). That is to say, most of the Marvel heroes don't fall onto either side really, but are individuals who have their own world views that don't neatly match a two-sided distinction.

[StoneGold]

Nazi's were socialists, and which side is embracing that?

Yes, in the same way that the Democratic Republic of Congo is a Democratic Republic.

Generally, when someone says that Nazis were socialists because the formal name of the group is National Socialists, it's a good sign that they have no clue what the hell they are talking about and are parroting something they saw online somewhere. Only because it's not true in the slightest. I mean, the Nazis hated communism. Threw people into concentration camps for it.



In any event, there are no economic issues in comic books. We're never going to find out what side of the taxation issue Mr. Immortal falls on. So it comes down purely to social issues, where 98% of Marvel superheroes fall squarely on the left, and the remaining 2% exist more to be irritant characters, like USAgent. Cap was cool with gays getting married in the 80s. He's also cool with mutants marrying robots. And interracial Asian/tree corpse marriages. And women marrying their cosmically aged children who are mind controlling them. Just the way it is.

[StoneGold]

People seem to come to their own conclusions regarding the political opinions of characters. To lefties Stark is a conservative and to righties he's a liberal. Pretty much entirely because he's been portrayed as less than heroic lately. And of course, "no one from my side would do that."

For whatever it's worth, Tony owned up to voting for Kerry when he was Secretary of Defense. Or rather, that he voted for the other guy.

[GHalecki]

See, when it comes to extreme political though, the extremes on each side actually come around and overlap.

Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Russia had a whole lot in common. Bothe sides basicly say "What is best for me, and the people like me, and who do what I tell them is what counts."

In Russia, esentially the government confiscated everything, and gave it to themselves for the greater good. If you disagreed, or if you might someday be tempted to disagree, you were shot.
In Germany, the government took everything away from an unpopular group and killed them, for the greater good. If you disagree, you are shot.

The Russians did what they did to appeal to and control the masses who were jealous of the people with money, and who they imagined were the cause of their problems (the aristocracy).
The Germans did what they did to appeal to and control the masses who were jealous of the people with money, and who they imagined were the cause of their problems (the Jews).
Both groups got in power and claimed they were liberating their people from oppression, by oppressing some people even worse.

[Gitaroo_Dude]

See, when it comes to extreme political though, the extremes on each side actually come around and overlap.

Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Russia had a whole lot in common. Bothe sides basicly say "What is best for me, and the people like me, and who do what I tell them is what counts."

In Russia, esentially the government confiscated everything, and gave it to themselves for the greater good. If you disagreed, or if you might someday be tempted to disagree, you were shot.
In Germany, the government took everything away from an unpopular group and killed them, for the greater good. If you disagree, you are shot.

The Russians did what they did to appeal to and control the masses who were jealous of the people with money, and who they imagined were the cause of their problems (the aristocracy).
The Germans did what they did to appeal to and control the masses who were jealous of the people with money, and who they imagined were the cause of their problems (the Jews).
Both groups got in power and claimed they were liberating their people from oppression, by oppressing some people even worse.

Yeah, but those were just two totalitarian governments only separated by their economic policies, mainly. Hitler even expressed admiration at how well Stalin was able to subdue his people and rule with an iron fist.

If we we're talking actual overlap of the political spectrum, I think the more correct way to put it would be that the extreme Right leads to anarchy, while the extreme Left leads to communism, both essentially doing away with the State.

[Moose967]

In any event, there are no economic issues in comic books. We're never going to find out what side of the taxation issue Mr. Immortal falls on. So it comes down purely to social issues, where 98% of Marvel superheroes fall squarely on the left, and the remaining 2% exist more to be irritant characters, like USAgent. Cap was cool with gays getting married in the 80s. He's also cool with mutants marrying robots. And interracial Asian/tree corpse marriages. And women marrying their cosmically aged children who are mind controlling them. Just the way it is.

I wouldn't say 98% of them fall on the left. Cap is a libertarian so he is for people making their own choices and not one side or the other making them for people. USAgent isn't an irritant character though and neither are the other "conservative" characters. I believe Nick Fury to be on the right and he carried a ton of crap on his shoulders and still does. Hercules or Thor aren't irritants, and while you can't really classify them in the spectrum they both come from patriarichal societies that exist in a largely non-PC or "21rst Century" manner. Most are on the left but not 98% of them and the ones who aren't on the left are not irritants for the sake of having an irritant.

[mikekerr3]

I always viewed the Civil War as Cap taking the right side of the argument and Stark taking the left, so I suppose the "gun registration" was the side I took. Stark seemed to favor big government, which is a leftist position, while Cap prefered individual rights. But I can see how it can viewed the other way.

I have said it before but I think Cap is a libertarian who has both left and right views. I believe most of the X-Men lean left with the exception of maybe Wolverine. Nick Fury is as conservative as they come it seems in Secret Warriors and in Secret War. In fact Nick Fury is about the only character I can think of that I would classify as falling to the right of the spectrum, oh and Dum Dum Dugan. Bucky, by todays standards, leans right I think too but I can't say for sure. In the Winter Soldier: Winter Kills one shot it seemed that way. Bru writes both Steve and Buck in a way that they can be viewed from either perspective which is the magic of Bru's writing them.

I took the exact opposite stance on Cap and Tony/ With Tony to the right and Cap to the left with Human and Civil rights being the issue.

I think that the for the characters like most of us it depends on the issue, I tend to be liberal on most things but an pro-gun rights and pro -military. I don't know of too many people who are all one thing, except of the talking heads on the news.

I never have understood the gun-control analogy since guns are inanimate objects and people are not. Objects do not have rights, people do.

[mikekerr3]

Nazi's were socialists, and which side is embracing that?

look up the word canard or Straw-man,

They were as socialist as the Republican Guard was Republican:tongue:

[Moose967]

I took the exact opposite stance on Cap and Tony/ With Tony to the right and Cap to the left with Human and Civil rights being the issue.

I think that the for the characters like most of us it depends on the issue, I tend to be liberal on most things but an pro-gun rights and pro -military. I don't know of too many people who are all one thing, except of the talking heads on the news.

I never have understood the gun-control analogy since guns are inanimate objects and people are not. Objects do not have rights, people do.

If that's the case we could use the alleory of Civil Rights and I would still think Cap is on the right by wanting people to choose. An example would be the state by state approach to legalizing SSM. Some states will, some states won't. Applying that to Civil War Tony would be on the left trying to get all "states" to accept what he thought was right and having the government intervene, while Cap would be for the state by state approach in my view.

BUT I get what your saying. Notice nobody wants Tony, ha ha!! Everybody wants Steve.

[DeadXMan]

Is this a joke?

No, really.

I'm at a loss for words if you're being serious.

The same guys who violently cracked down on socialists in Germany and shipped them off to concentration camps?

Really?

National Socialist German Workers party was the nazi's full name.
Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterparte

They came into power by using class warfare
(the rich Jews are to blame for the problems that faced post WWI Germany)

They orgastrate goverment run heathcare, banking and atuo industry (the VW bug was actually put into prodution by order of Hitler)

now tell were have we seen this before?

[StoneGold]

I wouldn't say 98% of them fall on the left. Cap is a libertarian so he is for people making their own choices and not one side or the other making them for people.
See, that's you making stuff up to fit your own world view. There is no social Libertarian worldview. Generally, the socially Libertarian worldview is socially liberal, but with an extremely conservative fiscal viewpoint. But as I said, economics don't exist in superhero comics.

Furthermore, we do know that Cap was a benefit of the WPA projects of the 40s, which to him wasn't all that long ago. He is a benefactor of the welfare state, and as far as I have seen has never come out against it.

Now, if you could show me some proof of your theory, as opposed to how you feel like it is, I'd be willing to discuss it.
USAgent isn't an irritant character though and neither are the other "conservative" characters. Oh please, that's all Gruenwald, Byrne and Thomas used them as. Hell, Thomas actually got him to lighten up, both in his personality and his political view, when he started falling for a Russian character.I believe Nick Fury to be on the right and he carried a ton of crap on his shoulders and still does.There goes that word again, "believe." Like the last administration believed there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, despite the complete lack of evidence. Hercules or Thor aren't irritants, and while you can't really classify them in the spectrum they both come from patriarichal societies that exist in a largely non-PC or "21rst Century" manner. Most are on the left but not 98% of them and the ones who aren't on the left are not irritants for the sake of having an irritant.

That's funny, pick two character with a complete lack of a political agenda. Seriously, you're just making stuff up at this point, assigning political thoughts to characters who don't have any to fit your own agendas.

Let's call it like it is - most comic writers lean squarely to the left. For ever Ditko, there's a gang of Lees, Kirbys, Thomases, etc. Just the way it is. And the views tend to filter into the characters.

[StoneGold]

National Socialist German Workers party was the nazi's full name.
Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterparte

They came into power by using class warfare
(the rich Jews are to blame for the problems that faced post WWI Germany)

They orgastrate goverment run heathcare, banking and atuo industry (the VW bug was actually put into prodution by order of Hitler)

now tell were have we seen this before?

You're writing. You know who else wrote? Hitler.


Seriously, that's the level of your analogies. Fascism is not socialism. The Nazis were fascists. Not socialists. Please audit a basic political science class at your local community college before writing more on the subject. Don't just copy off of Internet hacks.

[DeadXMan]

Hitler was a fascist that used the socialist agenda to gain power.
Just like Stalin did after Linen's death.

Socialism is the easiest route to dictatorship

[StoneGold]

Hitler was a fascist that used the socialist agenda to gain power.
Just like Stalin did after Linen's death.

Socialism is the easiest route to dictatorship

See, and crap like this is why these threads inevitably get shut down. Way to rewrite history.

[ivesaidway2much]

See, that's you making stuff up to fit your own world view. There is no social Libertarian worldview. Generally, the socially Libertarian worldview is socially liberal, but with an extremely conservative fiscal viewpoint. But as I said, economics don't exist in superhero comics.It depends on what you mean by liberal and conservative. If you mean liberal and conservative in the classical sense, you're probably right. But if you mean liberal as in Democrats and conservative as in Republican, I think you're wrong. Libertarians are interested in maintaining as many individual liberties as reasonably possible. Both the Repubs and the Dems try to limit freedoms in numerous areas for various reasons. Libertarians would likely support gay marriage and be opposed to harsh indecency and obscenity laws. But at the same time, they would likely oppose restrictive gun laws, hate crimes legislation, and affirmative action. A few of the more extreme ones are even pushing for secession in a number of western and southern states on the basis of preserving states' rights.

[wolvie616]

I always viewed the Civil War as Cap taking the right side of the argument and Stark taking the left, so I suppose the "gun registration" was the side I took. Stark seemed to favor big government, which is a leftist position, while Cap prefered individual rights. But I can see how it can viewed the other way.

I have said it before but I think Cap is a libertarian who has both left and right views. I believe most of the X-Men lean left with the exception of maybe Wolverine. Nick Fury is as conservative as they come it seems in Secret Warriors and in Secret War. In fact Nick Fury is about the only character I can think of that I would classify as falling to the right of the spectrum, oh and Dum Dum Dugan. Bucky, by todays standards, leans right I think too but I can't say for sure. In the Winter Soldier: Winter Kills one shot it seemed that way. Bru writes both Steve and Buck in a way that they can be viewed from either perspective which is the magic of Bru's writing them.
these are my views as well

[ivesaidway2much]

Socialism is the easiest route to dictatorshipActually, a military coup is usually the easiest route to a dictatorship. WIth the overwheliming majority of big guns, attack aircraft, and tanks, there really isn't a lot the people can do to stop you.

[StoneGold]

It depends on what you mean by liberal and conservative. If you mean liberal and conservative in the classical sense, you're probably right. But if you mean liberal as in Democrats and conservative as in Republican, I think you're wrong. Libertarians are interested in maintaining as many individual liberties as reasonably possible. Both the Repubs and the Dems try to limit freedoms in numerous areas for various reasons. Libertarians would likely support gay marriage and be opposed to harsh indecency and obscenity laws. But at the same time, they would likely oppose restrictive gun laws, hate crimes legislation, and affirmative action. A few of the more extreme ones are even pushing for secession in a number of western and southern states on the basis of preserving states' rights.

Except there is no socially Democrat position. Or socially Republican. Libertarian is generally socially left, fiscally right. But again, as there are no economic issues in superhero comics, it's impossible to be either fiscally right or left. It doesn't exist. You can't punch income tax in the face like you can someone trying to start a race war.

[ivesaidway2much]

Except there is no socially Democrat position. Or socially Republican. Libertarian is generally socially left, fiscally right. But again, as there are no economic issues in superhero comics, it's impossible to be either fiscally right or left. It doesn't exist. You can't punch income tax in the face like you can someone trying to start a race war.So what would you consider to be Democrat or Republican position?

[mikekerr3]

National Socialist German Workers party was the nazi's full name.
Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterparte

They came into power by using class warfare
(the rich Jews are to blame for the problems that faced post WWI Germany)

They orgastrate goverment run heathcare, banking and atuo industry (the VW bug was actually put into prodution by order of Hitler)

now tell were have we seen this before?

1930's Italy and Spain maybe.

And just for your information the Jews and Communists that Hitler used to gain power were not a class they were a Race and a Religous group. They did t care id they were rich of poor.

[mikekerr3]

Hitler was a fascist that used the socialist agenda to gain power.
Just like Stalin did after Linen's death.

Socialism is the easiest route to dictatorship

Stalin used comminism and hitler used race hatered and the expident of killing those in his way.

And as far as socialism being the easiest way to dictatorship, Please thel that to Every damned country in Europe, they would be very surprised, some have been funtionally socialist by American standards for over a century.

The Government that Hitler threw out was far more socialist than the Nazi's. With all those social protections dating from the late 18th Century and were implemented bythat renown Socilist Kaiser wilhem and The renowned lefty Bismark:rolleyes:

Hitler was backed an finaced by the top level of the wealthy in Germany and he made them even wealthier for a while..

[Craig T. Nelson]

Shhh, It's funnier if he thinks Obama is a Nazi.

[Expletive Deleted]

I realize it's a fine line to walk, but could we please keep real world politics out of this?

Thanks.

[StoneGold]

So what would you consider to be Democrat or Republican position?

Again, the problem is there are no economic components in superhero comics. You can only look at social agendas. So it really doesn't become about political parties, but just how characters react to social situations. And the problem specifically with Libertarianism is it is so tied into its economic aspect.

I mean, never mind that Cap, who in his mind not that long ago was painting murals for the government, and who accepted a couple decades worth of government back pay from when he was on ice, to which he created a computer network for underprivileged kids, doesn't really fit the economics of a libertarian. His whole origin reeks of government knowing better, as opposed to Horatio Alger-esque "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" traditional Americana.

But even that's just me extrapolating on a few things. Politically active characters are fairly rare in the MU. 99% of the time, politics can be summed up with vague moral platitudes, people who are different from you aren't evil, that kind of thing, generally left leaning social values. Those that aren't, you can count on hands. Metaphorically speaking. I dunno, there might be more than 10.








Oh, and Red Skull is a Republican. No, seriously. He was John Smith in the Reagan administration, and Dell Runsk in Bush 2.

[Expletive Deleted]

He was John Smith in the Reagan administration . . .To be fair, that partially overlapped with the period where Reagan was a mutated snake man.

[StoneGold]

To be fair, that partially overlapped with the period where Reagan was a mutated snake man.

And into Bush 1 as well. To be really fair, he was trying to overthrow the government as Dell Runsk as well, but he was a Republican either way.


But like I said, is anyone accusing Gruenwald or Johns of being arch conservatives?

[DeadXMan]

Actually, a military coup is usually the easiest route to a dictatorship. WIth the overwheliming majority of big guns, attack aircraft, and tanks, there really isn't a lot the people can do to stop you.
only if you have the miliatry in your pocket, other wise it's a pain in the ass
(look at the Valkyrie plot)

[DeadXMan]

Shhh, It's funnier if he thinks Obama is a Nazi.

I never said he was a Nazi (if we fallow by history, then Joe or Nancy are Hitler, cause he only became chancellor after the death of Bismark)
I just pointed out what the other countries socialist party ended up as.

and I pointed out the striking similarities of what the Nazi did by nationalizing banking, heath care, the manufacturing industry, in this case auto.
(again the Beetle was dub The People's Car)

now, I doubt Obama idea of Wealth distribution as Hitler did.

[mikekerr3]

I never said he was a Nazi (if we fallow by history, then Joe or Nancy are Hitler, cause he only became chancellor after the death of Bismark)
I just pointed out what the other countries socialist party ended up as.

and I pointed out the striking similarities of what the Nazi did by nationalizing banking, heath care, the manufacturing industry, in this case auto.
(again the Beetle was dub The People's Car)

now, I doubt Obama idea of Wealth distribution as Hitler did.

He did not nationalize the auto industy, or even the Arms and Aircraft industried he. Sponsored F. Porsche (who was also A Nazi) to make the VW by guaranteeing a certain number of sales.

The factories were never nationalized and Krupp and Porsche and the other slime got quite rich until the currency became worthless.

[Gitaroo_Dude]

National Socialist German Workers party was the nazi's full name.
Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterparte

They came into power by using class warfare
(the rich Jews are to blame for the problems that faced post WWI Germany)

They orgastrate goverment run heathcare, banking and atuo industry (the VW bug was actually put into prodution by order of Hitler)

now tell were have we seen this before?

:frown:

No, no, no.

Hitler rose to power by whipping up fear AGAINST labor unions and the working class. And then he tied them together with the Jews.

Again, his enemy was the working class. The labor unions. His allies? The German right. Industry and conservatives along with his fascist party.

Hitler rose to power by demonizing and terrorizing the Left. And he was then able to link Jews with the rise of Socialists and Bolshevism. Hitler believed his whole destiny was to overthrow Bolshevism and Jewry, which he believed were the same thing.

And they never nationalized their industries. The entire reason Goring and Speer were so powerful is because they were the liason between the industrial sector and Hitler.

[GHalecki]

As far as Hitler and the Jews, it really WAS about class warfare.

The poor maases of Germany were whipped up into a frenzy when the rich jews were portrayd as thh root of all the nations problems. Hitler hated the Jews, ALL of them, and he got the people to hate the rich ones because they were the easy targets, and that allowed him to lump the poor jews with them because they were "rich jews waiting to happen".

From an economic point, The Nazis pandered to the rich industrials, while portraying themselves as being the poor mans only protection from them.
The rich people who supported the Nazis got richer, while the rich people who opposed them were made to go away, by one mentod or another.

Not all that much diferent than the Democratic party in the US today.

[Gitaroo_Dude]

As far as Hitler and the Jews, it really WAS about class warfare.

The poor maases of Germany were whipped up into a frenzy when the rich jews were portrayd as thh root of all the nations problems. Hitler hated the Jews, ALL of them, and he got the people to hate the rich ones because they were the easy targets, and that allowed him to lump the poor jews with them because they were "rich jews waiting to happen".

From an economic point, The Nazis pandered to the rich industrials, while portraying themselves as being the poor mans only protection from them.
The rich people who supported the Nazis got richer, while the rich people who opposed them were made to go away, by one mentod or another.

Not all that much diferent than the Democratic party in the US today.

/facepalm

So where exactly do the working class, non-Jewish Germans fall into this Mr. Halecki?

Hitler didn't rise to power on an explicitly anti-Semitic platform. It was a much more anti-working class stance.

Seriously, I HIGHLY recommend that you and DeadXMan read Ian Kershaw's biography of Hitler. It's about as perfect a history book can get, and it does justice to the man and the monster of Hitler. And it'll clear up all these misconceptions you guys seem to have about what the rise of Nazism actually entailed.

And, hopefully, it'll cause you to stop the totally hilarious analogies to the Democratic party. I am ABSOLUTELY sure that Robert Gates would be totally down for the Democrats purging America of the Right. Oh yeah.

This is another edit to simply reiterate what should be a glaringly obvious point. Why would Robert Gates be part of the Obama administration if they were totalitarians in disguise? To say nothing of James Jones. These guys aren't idiots. And they're getting their way. Does that REALLY strike you as the hallmark of a leftist government?

[Moose967]

See, that's you making stuff up to fit your own world view. There is no social Libertarian worldview. Generally, the socially Libertarian worldview is socially liberal, but with an extremely conservative fiscal viewpoint. But as I said, economics don't exist in superhero comics.

Furthermore, we do know that Cap was a benefit of the WPA projects of the 40s, which to him wasn't all that long ago. He is a benefactor of the welfare state, and as far as I have seen has never come out against it.

Now, if you could show me some proof of your theory, as opposed to how you feel like it is, I'd be willing to discuss it. Oh please, that's all Gruenwald, Byrne and Thomas used them as. Hell, Thomas actually got him to lighten up, both in his personality and his political view, when he started falling for a Russian character.There goes that word again, "believe." Like the last administration believed there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, despite the complete lack of evidence.

That's funny, pick two character with a complete lack of a political agenda. Seriously, you're just making stuff up at this point, assigning political thoughts to characters who don't have any to fit your own agendas.

Let's call it like it is - most comic writers lean squarely to the left. For ever Ditko, there's a gang of Lees, Kirbys, Thomases, etc. Just the way it is. And the views tend to filter into the characters.

Bro you need to take a chill pill. I just asked what people thought about each characters leanings not for you to come and slather his anti-right propaganda all over the place. I'd say Cap is a moderate/libertarian. And yes in Bru's run economics have come into play. On Herc and Thor I was speculating, not making stuff up. I think you take your comics a bit too seriously, trying to have a one-up debate over something that's truly from the readers perspective. USAgent is a character I have always thought was interesting. And again I mean conservative, not Bush Neo-Con.

And just because Steve Rogers grew up under FDR and all the social programs doesn't make him a dyed in wool liberal. See he has fought against government expansion in the past and that doesn't make him a dyed in wool conservative either.

So why not enjoy yourself, state your opinion, and be respectable as opposed to dissecting peoples opinions because you happen to not like conservatives, or it at least appears that way.

And the Red Skull is a Nazi who will pose as whatever gives him the upperhand.

And out the spirit of respect, what do you think about Fury and Dugan?

[DeadXMan]

/facepalm

So where exactly do the working class, non-Jewish Germans fall into this Mr. Halecki?




They would be the uninformed masses that were captured by a brilliant speaker and use of modern media outlets.


I find Mein Kampf and Zweites Buch a better look into the mind of that mad man.

[Gitaroo_Dude]

They would be the uninformed masses that were captured by a brilliant speaker and use of modern media outlets.


I find Mein Kampf and Zweites Buch a better look into the mind of that mad man.

If you hadn't cut out the rest of my post, you'd know that the working class and socialists ended up in the concentration camps even before the Jews were sent there.

Then again, you could just totally reinterpret history by saying they were really just uninformed masses leading Hitler to power. Even though it was originally the Conservative bloc who helped bring him to power alongside the fascists.

[DeadXMan]

Night of long knives.


Look it up

:wink:

[ViciousX]

Night of long knives.


Look it up

:wink:

Oh, I know all about Hitler and the Night of the Long Knives. One of my college thesis papers was all about him.

He had conservative enemies also, but make no mistake, Hitler was no socialist.

BTW, wikipedia is a terrible source for information.

[Gitaroo_Dude]

Night of long knives.


Look it up

:wink:

What about it?

If you're trying to use that as evidence against his alliance with Conservatives, that doesn't prove anything. Hitler always knew it was an alliance of convenience and that the Conservatives thought they could control him.

So how does that make him a Socialist? You're talking about 1934, when they were already in power. The years before were marked by the Nazis persecuting Socialists and the working class.

[DeadXMan]

Oh, I know all about Hitler and the Night of the Long Knives. One of my college thesis papers was all about him.

He had conservative enemies also, but make no mistake, Hitler was no socialist.

BTW, wikipedia is a terrible source for information.

where have I said Hitler was a socialist?

He used the national socialism workers party agenda as means to gain power and twisted it into a dictatorship.

and those labor leaders and other socialists that were in the camps were against him and they were removed from the equation.

your roommate isn't the only one that has wrote a term paper on this guy.:rolleyes:

[Gitaroo_Dude]

where have I said Hitler was a socialist?

He used the national socialism workers party agenda as means to gain power and twisted it into a dictatorship.

and those labor leaders and other socialists that were in the camps were against him and they were removed from the equation.

your roommate isn't the only one that has wrote a term paper on this guy.:rolleyes:

You didn't call Hitler a socialist, but you did call the Nazis socialists.

Which is, again, simply not true. Ignore the fact that their name includes the word, much like, as Stonegold pointed out, countries like North Korea call themselves a Democratic Republic.

The Nazi's main enemies were socialists and communists. Bolshevism and Jewry were responsible for everything to them.

[StoneGold]

Bro you need to take a chill pill.
And you need to be intellectually honest. Or at least not preface your statements by getting all condescending.

I just asked what people thought about each characters leanings not for you to come and slather his anti-right propaganda all over the place. I'd say Cap is a moderate/libertarian. And yes in Bru's run economics have come into play.
You're going to have to show me where on that. The only economics I can think of are Lukin's brand of supercapitalism. Which Cap was fighting, although that really has nothing to do with Cap's economic outlook. But please, tell me where Cap said that he was for a VAT tax and against the IRS.

On Herc and Thor I was speculating, not making stuff up.
No, see, when I provide actual evidence for how you are, you don't get to go "No I'm not!" I mean, you can, but it's a kinda girly way out of the debate. We're talking about characters who don't quite get the concept of transistor radios. They don't care about the politics of man.

I think you take your comics a bit too seriously, trying to have a one-up debate over something that's truly from the readers perspective. USAgent is a character I have always thought was interesting. And again I mean conservative, not Bush Neo-Con.

And I think you're throwing a hissy fit because someone didn't agree with you blindly, and you really don't have anything to back up your "feelings."
And just because Steve Rogers grew up under FDR and all the social programs doesn't make him a dyed in wool liberal. See he has fought against government expansion in the past and that doesn't make him a dyed in wool conservative either.
No, it doesn't. But then, you were the one saying he was Libertarian, which means he has economically conservative views. I was saying that he has no economic views. And he's worked in government agencies more often than he's fought them. SHIELD, leading the Redeemers for a bit... only time he really fought "government expansion," it was technically reduction, as it was being controlled by what was at that point a UN mandated SHIELD.

So why not enjoy yourself, state your opinion, and be respectable as opposed to dissecting peoples opinions because you happen to not like conservatives, or it at least appears that way.
Because this message board is a place for polite debate. Not state your opinion, and cry like a little girl when someone doesn't agree with you.
And the Red Skull is a Nazi who will pose as whatever gives him the upperhand.And who was twice a member of the Republican party. Hell, second time, he was in Bush's cabinet. And while yes, he was trying to overthrow the government, be honest, do you really think Gruenwald and Johns didn't know what they were doing?

And out the spirit of respect, what do you think about Fury and Dugan?

Definitely hawks. Casey wrote him as practically draconian at times, and the whole point of Secret War was basically "what if there actually were WMDs, but in a country Bush didn't want to invade?" Although they seem to be cool with gays in the military, having fought with Pinky Pinkerton in WWII.

But then, see, I provide some level of context. Not just "I feel American Eagle is an antidisestablishmentarianist," and leave it at that. If I said I felt Spider-Man can fly, I'd be wrong, no matter how much it seemed true to me.

[Tages]

So why not enjoy yourself, state your opinion, and be respectable as opposed to dissecting peoples opinions

Apparently you aren't very well-acquainted with this whole "discussion" thing.

If you say something that is wrong, you get corrected. Which is awesome because that means you get to learn something new.