Kyle Rayner is the BEST!

[E-Roc Hubertron]

So I just finally got caught up on all the Green Lantern stuff of the last four years, and I must say, I miss my Kyle. He is who I grew up with and then he totally got sidelined by a giant fan boy for the classics(even though I love Geoff) but will he ever play a cool role again or just get a few pages here and there? How can he be reinvented/ made a more complex character?

[Phantom Druid]

I don't think he needs to be reinvented, it's just a matter of focusing on him more, if that's who you like. But Hal is the Green Lantern, and Guy is entertaining. I missed out on the main bulk of the Kyle era ( when he was THEE GL ), but from what I've seen in recent years, I think Kilowog, John Stewart, and Sodam & Arisia have been more appealing characters to me.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Whats sad is there is a fanbase who wanted Kyle Rayner and as sales of Ion showed...they would follow the character . (sales were 35,000+)

Its just that DC must fear that Rayner would out draw Stewart , Gardner and others ...and they don't want that.

But yep...I jumped on when Marz introduced Rayner to the DCU and made him Green Lantern. It was a fun time. Now he's reduced to support. And we should be happy DC doesn't shockingly kill him off . Even though they have been silly with his charactorization to make Hal look better.


And heres an instance...


Johns claims he's a big follower of DC continuty and seems to wanna do a lot. Ok... so how come he missed this part . In JLA under Grant Morrison 'Sandman" told Kyle Rayner : "You will be better. Because...you know FEAR."

Ok thats a brief panel. But years later ....Johns himself even wrote Rayner in GL: Rebirth ...knew fear and could beat Parallax. Now what the hell happened in the Sinestro Corps War ? Kyle seemingly did a 180 and didn't know fear ..which goes against what Johns and others did.

It never made sense. It was like....ok heres another reason why Hal Jordan is supposed to be cool. He's saving that silly Rayner kid now. See...he's cool darn it !

[E-Roc Hubertron]

I suppose I understand both those reasons but still, rayner is such a different character from gardner and killowog that he could add a much different dimension.

Also Rayner is way better when he has some connection to earth, he has his career as an artist, I dunno writing it sounds lame but just throwing him into space seems silly.

As for the sinestro thing I totally agree. They say he learned fear because of the death of his mother, but to me that seems to be just chalking him up to the guy whose women die, that all started with the ill fated refrigerator. I think his personality can be a lot more than that, not some historical gimmick.

Yat, while cool, epitomizes the tough guy act, so he is like gardner and killowog who are way cooler and interesting. i dunno, just not a big fan in the end i guess, but keep the killowog coming.

[SquidSquod]

Hal is the best to me. And Wally West.

[Wilder Midnight]

Kyle's my favorite too...and I started reading comics in the mid seventies.

Hal Jordan as Green lantern is a good idea in theory but really...he was always kind of boring to me. Despite the fact he's endured to today and currently has a top rated comic is in my eyes quite a surprise. He never really seemed to be able to hold a series on his own and whats so unique about being a Green lantern when there's like thousands of them anyway?

i think a lot of Green Lanterns current success is owed to Kyle in that he's the one who got the ball rolling. He's the one that really got people back into and passionate about Green lantern again. Throughout the 90's DC's big three was Superman, Batman and...Green Lantern. When Kyle headed up the title as the universe's sole Green lantern his title was consistently DC's best selling solo title besides bats and Supes.

This post has been brought to you by a Kyle rayner fan.

I wish it could go back to him being the only one.

[E-Roc Hubertron]

Thanks! I do feel like Hal has gotten to be a better character in vol. 4 (or three what ever you want to call it), but he still struggles with being one dimensional at times. I think it will be really telling to see how blackest night pans out in terms of making him a more complex character and I do like his interactions with the blue lanterns which serve to bring out different qualities, besides the man with out fear.

I do think Hals strength lies with his cast. he did best when he had a good foil, like green arrow, and so Johns will have to keep his cast of characters diverse to keep things fresh.


Also glad to hear someone who didnt grow up in the 90s loves kyle too. I feel like its the same thing with wally west, barry allen was alright but only had a few tricks, where writers could be more gutsy with wally.

[Hullababy]

Hal was never one dimensional. The people who say that never got his character in the first place. Kyle is not one dimensional because he is the everyman ? I don't get it. Kyle might be the OP's favorite but I certainly don't think Kyle is "the best". I don't even like Kyle but I haven't got a problem with him being around. Fact is GL is better now than perhaps it ever was and it has done that starring Hal in the main book not Kyle or any other pretender.

[Free-Man]

Problem is, I think there are a large portion of GL fans who will NEVER like Kyle, because of the stuff DC did just to prop HIM up. Hal had to be turned into a villain. John was crippled. Guy was turned into a freaky alien. Killowag died. And the Corps.....the poor corps....Jade was depowered, and her dad gave up his name to Kyle.
It was just too much.

[Alex Smith]

Problem is, I think there are a large portion of GL fans who will NEVER like Kyle, because of the stuff DC did just to prop HIM up. Hal had to be turned into a villain. John was crippled. Guy was turned into a freaky alien. Killowag died. And the Corps.....the poor corps....Jade was depowered, and her dad gave up his name to Kyle.
It was just too much.

Exactly! People are quick to bring up Kyle being made look bad for Hal as of late, but they never bring any of this up. It left a bad taste in my mouth, and I couldn't read much of the Kyle GL stuff.

I also agree that this is the best GL has ever been. At least the best of what I'm familiar with.

[Superbeast]

Problem is, I think there are a large portion of GL fans who will NEVER like Kyle, because of the stuff DC did just to prop HIM up. Hal had to be turned into a villain. John was crippled. Guy was turned into a freaky alien. Killowag died. And the Corps.....the poor corps....Jade was depowered, and her dad gave up his name to Kyle.
It was just too much.

That's because at the time they wanted a single character to rebuild the franchise around. What would you have preferred, for him to be a lame duck hero who was constantly made to look weak even though the character was carrying the franchise at the time? They streamlined the franchise and dropped what they considered excess baggage and worked to make Kyle a power player with a simpler story fans could get in to. Heaven forbid they try to make characters power players that can attract new fans unfamiliar with the greater GL mythology, let alone build them up over time. I mean, it's not like they'd do that to Hal... oh wait, they just did with Secret Origins. :P

[Thok]

Problem is, I think there are a large portion of GL fans who will NEVER like Kyle, because of the stuff DC did just to prop HIM up. Hal had to be turned into a villain. John was crippled. Guy was turned into a freaky alien. Killowag died. And the Corps.....the poor corps....Jade was depowered, and her dad gave up his name to Kyle.
It was just too much.

Honestly, I don't like Kyle because I don't think he's a good fit for the franchise: Green Lantern is about being a space cop, and Kyle never really fit in as a cop while Hal's been in the role forever and fits it like a glove.

Seriously, seeing people complain about Hal's lack of character makes me wonder if people have watched Law and Order or Dragnet, which are comparable franchises that don't spend that much time developing their leads because that wasn't what was important to the show.

(I also think Kyle's artist reputation gets a bit overblown: in effect it means he tosses a large green cat at a bad guy rather than a large ball of green energy. Does that actually make a difference? It's still throwing a bunch of green stuff at a bad guy. If Kyle was actually doing something innovative in his way of fighting evil, I'd be more supportive, but I don't really see it.)

[Superbeast]

Honestly, I don't like Kyle because I don't think he's a good fit for the franchise: Green Lantern is about being a space cop, and Kyle never really fit in as a cop while Hal's been in the role forever and fits it like a glove.

Seriously, seeing people complain about Hal's lack of character makes me wonder if people have watched Law and Order or Dragnet, which are comparable franchises that don't spend that much time developing their leads because that wasn't what was important to the show.

(I also think Kyle's artist reputation gets a bit overblown: in effect it means he tosses a large green cat at a bad guy rather than a large ball of green energy. Does that actually make a difference? It's still throwing a bunch of green stuff at a bad guy. If Kyle was actually doing something innovative in his way of fighting evil, I'd be more supportive, but I don't really see it.)
Do you actually read GLC? Kyle has shown his resourcefulness, creativity and resiliency off there quite a bit, particularly during the Kryb arc. I think the Origins and Omens back up where he gets other Green Lanterns to help primer a building so he can paint a mural really showed off Kyle's place in the Corps and his ability to encourage and motivate others around him.

[Thok]

Do you actually read GLC? Kyle has shown his resourcefulness, creativity and resiliency off there quite a bit, particularly during the Kryb arc. I think the Origins and Omens back up where he gets other Green Lanterns to help primer a building so he can paint a mural really showed off Kyle's place in the Corps and his ability to encourage and motivate others around him.

I in fact do read GLC; it's part of why I think Kyle should eventually move to the Blue Lantern Corps, which IMHO would be a better fit for him (a Corps about providing hope fits him much better than a group of space cops.) In fact part of the point of the mural scene and the "Kyle draws creepy stuff" mini-arc was that the GLC had been significantly affecting his creative instincts.

[Superbeast]

I in fact do read GLC; it's part of why I think Kyle should eventually move to the Blue Lantern Corps, which IMHO would be a better fit for him (a Corps about providing hope fits him much better than a group of space cops.) In fact part of the point of the mural scene and the "Kyle draws creepy stuff" mini-arc was that the GLC had been significantly affecting his creative instincts.

Well to be fair that's why I think he did fit the mold as a solo GL when that was the direction they wanted. I do think he is a bit buried under the Corps in some ways since being demoted but for me his eternal optimism despite his losses is what attracts me to the character. As the Torchbearer he was a perfect fit for what the franchise was at the time. In the newly remade Corps he is a bit out of place since Hal is now the go to GL but I still think the character has a lot going for it.

[Phantom Druid]

Seriously, seeing people complain about Hal's lack of character makes me wonder if people have watched Law and Order or Dragnet, which are comparable franchises that don't spend that much time developing their leads because that wasn't what was important to the show.


Your post got me thinking. A GL is supposed to have fortitide and willpower up the wazoo. I think that someone with tons of willpower and responsibility will sometimes have to sacrifice other intersting character traits in order to be that way. For example, someone with great willpower and responsibilty probably won't give in to drinking at the bar and partying everynight. He probably won't be known as the fun spontaneous guy. He might even be seen as a "square". Of course, Guy is a rare exception, but there is a reason why Hal is the main GL. So while Hal might seem bland sometimes, it's not that important to the whole show, like you say. Someone has to be the designated driver of the series... and that's Hal Jordan.

[Violently Apathetic]

Your post got me thinking. A GL is supposed to have fortitide and willpower up the wazoo. I think that someone with tons of willpower and responsibility will sometimes have to sacrifice other intersting character traits in order to be that way. For example, someone with great willpower and responsibilty probably won't give in to drinking at the bar and partying everynight.

Interesting you should say that, given Hal's history of dodging responsibility (particularly when it comes to relationships) and his general headstrong and impusilve nature.

Since Emerald Dawn has been retconned into oblivion I guess I can't bring up his DUI.

I don't know, I've only really thought of Hal as a 'square' when he's around Ollie (and really, that may only be because Ollie calls him that every few panels). Hal is (generally) a much more dynamic character then he sometimes gets credit for. I could never choose who I liked best as GL between Hal, Guy and Kyle (poor John gets neglected, but only because I have more trouble tracking down his stories than the others).

[Phantom Druid]

Interesting you should say that, given Hal's history of dodging responsibility (particularly when it comes to relationships) and his general headstrong and impusilve nature.

A hero of that magnitude can't let relationship problems get in the way of the greater good. And sometimes certain situations call for impulsive reactions. With that said, I don't expect any hero with that much weight on his shoulders to be perfect.

Since Emerald Dawn has been retconned into oblivion I guess I can't bring up his DUI.
:eek: ok, foot in my mouth on that one, lol. Lucky save by the retcon though.

[Violently Apathetic]

Haha, in all honesty I don't think it's a sense of duty that prevents Hal from settling down, but something a little more immature. I certainly agree that heroes shouldn't be perfect (thankfully all the Earth based GLs are pretty far from it).

Nothing of value was lost when Johns retconned 'Emerald Dawn.'

Well, except for maybe Hal slamming headfirst into a yellow sign...that was pretty good.

[TeamED209]

Honestly, I don't like Kyle because I don't think he's a good fit for the franchise: Green Lantern is about being a space cop, and Kyle never really fit in as a cop while Hal's been in the role forever and fits it like a glove.

Seriously, seeing people complain about Hal's lack of character makes me wonder if people have watched Law and Order or Dragnet, which are comparable franchises that don't spend that much time developing their leads because that wasn't what was important to the show.

(I also think Kyle's artist reputation gets a bit overblown: in effect it means he tosses a large green cat at a bad guy rather than a large ball of green energy. Does that actually make a difference? It's still throwing a bunch of green stuff at a bad guy. If Kyle was actually doing something innovative in his way of fighting evil, I'd be more supportive, but I don't really see it.)

They obviously wanted to move away from the space cop MO when kyle was introduced and personally i enjoyed his run more than any other GL to date(although jones right now is tearing it up)...

I don't think it's fair to compare kyle's era to hal's because they were both based on different concepts hal's being the more space cop with a whole bunch of lanterns and systems in place ect (law and order)and kyle's being more focused on him and more character driven...

On a side note i get a bit annoyed when a character can come up with any construct he can think of and he lands up with a green fist or a ball, that's just a waste which is another reason i think kyle's my favorite, so to me it makes a big difference...

[Hullababy]

They obviously wanted to move away from the space cop MO when kyle was introduced and personally i enjoyed his run more than any other GL to date(although jones right now is tearing it up)...

I don't think it's fair to compare kyle's era to hal's because they were both based on different concepts hal's being the more space cop with a whole bunch of lanterns and systems in place ect (law and order)and kyle's being more focused on him and more character driven...

On a side note i get a bit annoyed when a character can come up with any construct he can think of and he lands up with a green fist or a ball, that's just a waste which is another reason i think kyle's my favorite, so to me it makes a big difference...

Oh come on ! I love the big green boxing glove...its so Hal:biggrin:

[E-Roc Hubertron]

They obviously wanted to move away from the space cop MO when kyle was introduced and personally i enjoyed his run more than any other GL to date(although jones right now is tearing it up)...

I don't think it's fair to compare kyle's era to hal's because they were both based on different concepts hal's being the more space cop with a whole bunch of lanterns and systems in place ect (law and order)and kyle's being more focused on him and more character driven...

On a side note i get a bit annoyed when a character can come up with any construct he can think of and he lands up with a green fist or a ball, that's just a waste which is another reason i think kyle's my favorite, so to me it makes a big difference...


I would totally agree its not quite fair, but i suppose a better question is why someone likes green lantern.

As a kid I was no doubt drawn to the idea of constructs. how sweet right!? and you know that it made a superpower being a ring way cooler. But whats the point of creating a character who is limited by his creativity if all you are going to do is make it shoot lasers? Having such a concept can allow for artists to go wild and not be constrained which is the best part.


Also, for those who think that hal is better for not being a square, and that flaws are what make a character interesting (which I agree) why hate on Parallax? For once it felt like the good guy had actually gone bad... and dont get me started on people who hate the specter, that was cool too and not done enough with if you ask me.

[Phantom Druid]

On a side note i get a bit annoyed when a character can come up with any construct he can think of and he lands up with a green fist or a ball, that's just a waste which is another reason i think kyle's my favorite, so to me it makes a big difference...
I missed alot of the Kyle era. Was he more creative with his constructs? I always liked Guy's constructs, like classic cars, etc. Or how about the time when he made the wolverine constructs with the Red Dawn movie reference during the Sinestro War? I was like "Hell Yeah!!" when I saw that.

[Violently Apathetic]

Also, for those who think that hal is better for not being a square, and that flaws are what make a character interesting (which I agree) why hate on Parallax? For once it felt like the good guy had actually gone bad... and dont get me started on people who hate the specter, that was cool too and not done enough with if you ask me.

I actually didn't hate Parallax. I don't necessarily like the idea of Hal shouldering ALL the blame for that, as 'multiple murderer with a God complex' is....well, it goes beyond a simple character flaw. However I do like the idea of Parallax being something external that simply exploited and magnified weaknesses and fears that were already present within Hal. Basically Hal wouldn't have done what he did without Parallax, but Parallax wouldn't have been able to do it without Hal (and his myriad of issues) either. Had Hal been a stronger man and not so emotionally and mentally comprised he may have been able to prevent what occurred. In that sense he still failed on some level, but he can also still be preserved as a viable hero.

Besides, there's something appealing to me about a slightly dark Hal...

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/Kagome654/tenworstintimidate.jpg

ETA:
I missed alot of the Kyle era. Was he more creative with his constructs? I always liked Guy's constructs, like classic cars, etc. Or how about the time when he made the wolverine constructs with the Red Dawn movie reference during the Sinestro War? I was like "Hell Yeah!!" when I saw that.

Kyle had some absolutely brilliant constructs. Mechas, cartoon characters, gladiators, etc...

[jv2k]

I'm surprised this hasn't been addressed yet, but Kyle hasn't exactly been sidelined. True he's no longer in the main GL book but he's gotten plenty of exposure in GLC. For about a year after IC he left the GLC book and was in a mini written by his creator, and when the mini was up he became one of the main characters in GLC again. Then in Sinestro Wars it was him that fought sinestro with Hal, not Guy or John, Kyle. I've seen plenty of Kyle fans complain that he's out of the spotlight but it just doesn't make sense. I guess you guys are just too used to kyle being the only Green Lantern around.

Anyway my opinion on Kyle as a character is that he's a bit bland. There I said it. I still like him and his book was good up until Winnick left, but it doesn't hold a candle to the current run.

My first problem with Kyle is that his origin is downright stupid. So the last surviving guardian decides to randomly give out a ring to someone on earth because hey, they already had three chances are they'd give us another good lantern. So instead of seeking out a hero or one of the older Green Lanterns he teleports behind a bar where kyle stumbles upon him(interesting note, if kyle hadn't stumbled out a homeless guy would have gotten it). Yea... that's the best way to find someone to entrust the most powerful weapon in the universe to. This of course was done to give the new Green Lantern the marvel effect. That is, he got accidental powers and now with great power comes great responsibility.

My second problem is that Kyle was generic as hell. Oh yea he was the artist, the one that loves coffee, lives in the village, and has trouble with girls. A lot of people like to tout Kyle as some highly developed character, but he's nothing more than an artist stereotype. He came into his own a little bit and he wasn't a total artist stereotype by the time Johns relaunched the corps, but he was about as much a copy and paste hero as Hal was. Hal was the silver age power-cop, Kyle was the new age "human hero" with "problems".

My third problem with Kyle was that he wasn't just pushed into the new role as green lantern. He was forced in and even though I didn't read his run when it was new you can feel it throughout the book. It seemed like every issue went on about how great kyle was going to become and how worthy he was of the tittle. Like someone said anyone with a green lantern connection was either killed off or depowered and when Alan Scott came back he changed his name.

My last problem was that kyle whined a lot. At one point he compared his relationship with his mother to Roy's relationship with Green Arrow(before they made up). Kyle's mom was a little overprotective, while Roy's mentor threw his ass on the street when he found out he was shooting up heroin. Sorry Kyle there is a bit of a difference there.

Overall Kyle added one important feature to the mythos; it reinvented the power ring. For years it seemed writers had struggled for a way to make it cool by letting Hal go through walls and read minds, but it wasn't until Kyle that they figured out that the coolest thing about the ring was it's original selling point.After they finally started making cool constructs the ring became a much more interesting power.

[Violently Apathetic]

My second problem is that Kyle was generic as hell. Oh yea he was the artist, the one that loves coffee, lives in the village, and has trouble with girls. A lot of people like to tout Kyle as some highly developed character, but he's nothing more than an artist stereotype. He came into his own a little bit and he wasn't a total artist stereotype by the time Johns relaunched the corps, but he was about as much a copy and paste hero as Hal was. Hal was the silver age power-cop, Kyle was the new age "human hero" with "problems".

Query: What artistic stereotype are you thinking of, exactly? The only stereotypes I can think of that are applied to young male artists are that they're either gay or sensitive new age males (not exactly enlightened viewpoints, but eh, stereotypes....). Kyle wasn't (and isn't) either. He's a bit of a dreamer at times, but that was never stressed as much as say...his temper or emotional immaturity.

I'm not disagreeing, I'm just curious as to what exactly you mean.

[Thok]

Kyle had some absolutely brilliant constructs. Mechas, cartoon characters, gladiators, etc...

They look different from the lasers/giant fists, but do they end up doing different things than the lasers/giant fists? That was one of my points above. There isn't really much difference between a mecha punching a bad guy and a giant fist punching a bad guy or a mecha firing lasers at a bad guy versus just firing lasers at the bad guy. One looks more creative and looks cooler, the other is possibly more efficient and focuses more of the ring's energy on the attack, and in the end they likely accomplish the same task.

(Incidentally, I do recognize that some of the Hal/Kyle debate really ends up being "Do you want GL to be more like Law and Order or more like Real World?" [apologies if you don't think Real World is an appropriate comparison for Kyle's status quo and feel free to suggest a better show to compare it to.])

[Violently Apathetic]

No, there was no indication that Kyle's constructs were any more or less effective than Hal's, they just looked cooler...and considering comics are a visual medium I think that counts for a lot. I wouldn't base a preference for Kyle over Hal on it, but those silly constructs do make the book more visually appealing, imho.

[jv2k]

Query: What artistic stereotype are you thinking of, exactly? The only stereotypes I can think of that are applied to young male artists are that they're either gay or sensitive new age males (not exactly enlightened viewpoints, but eh, stereotypes....). Kyle wasn't (and isn't) either. He's a bit of a dreamer at times, but that was never stressed as much as say...his temper or emotional immaturity.

I'm not disagreeing, I'm just curious as to what exactly you mean.

Well he lives in the village, lives off coffee(he actually lived over a coffee shop), sensitive, always thinking of new work, struggling to pay bills because art doesn't pay off too well, and a rebellious attitude.

[jv2k]

I missed alot of the Kyle era. Was he more creative with his constructs? I always liked Guy's constructs, like classic cars, etc. Or how about the time when he made the wolverine constructs with the Red Dawn movie reference during the Sinestro War? I was like "Hell Yeah!!" when I saw that.
Kyles constructs were significant because before him the rings weren't used too creatively. You'd occasionally get a neat looking construct, but for the most part the ring was for bubble constructs and boxing gloves.

[IMJ]

It says a lot about Kyle's character that he still has a strong following. I remember back when they nixed Hal in the 90's for Kyle how ridiculous the uproar was.

Understandable for Hal Jordan fans, but again it says a lot that Kyle is still a key player considering his creation during one of the darkest eras for comics.

[E-Roc Hubertron]

Well he lives in the village, lives off coffee(he actually lived over a coffee shop), sensitive, always thinking of new work, struggling to pay bills because art doesn't pay off too well, and a rebellious attitude.

I respectfully disagree with a lot of this. All comic characters are based in a slew of stereotypes, look at superman and hal jordan(or guy) but that doesnt necessarily make them bland.

I do agree kyle can whine a lot but i think that was a weakness of writers not knowing where to take the character. They did do some great things with him, (looking at hate crimes, the first ion story was great, etc.) but at times the title itself didnt have a clear direction of how they were going to develop kyle and i understand that.

and i also agree that a laser from the ring has the same effect as one from a bfg but that doesnt mean thats how the GL thinks and constructs allow each GL to act as they would imagine, while making it visually stunning. I loved when he would make giant mechs....

[Violently Apathetic]

Well he lives in the village, lives off coffee(he actually lived over a coffee shop), sensitive, always thinking of new work, struggling to pay bills because art doesn't pay off too well, and a rebellious attitude.

Aside from the coffee and location that sounds a lot like Peter Parker, which isn't to say they're not pulling from the same stereotypes (since photography can be considered an art), just that, with the exception of 'sensitive,' those describe the situation the character is in rather than the character himself. Yeah, I'll concede there's a lot there that just screams 'hip, young everyman,' but I do like to think that there's more to him than that, and considering most superheroes draw from similar stereotypes it's not something that should necessarily count against him. Unless you feel he never developed much beyond that, which is fair criticism to make.

[dreyga2000]

Aside from the coffee and location that sounds a lot like Peter Parker,

Huh, part of the reason I loved Kyle so much as GL was that he felt like DC's answer to Spiderman...

I'd hate to say but I kinda do agree Kyle isn't all that original of a character...

[Alan2099]

Problem is, I think there are a large portion of GL fans who will NEVER like Kyle, because of the stuff DC did just to prop HIM up. Hal had to be turned into a villain. John was crippled. Guy was turned into a freaky alien. Killowag died. And the Corps.....the poor corps....Jade was depowered, and her dad gave up his name to Kyle.
It was just too much.
Honestly, I think becoming Parallax was the best thing that they ever did with Hal. It actually gave him his own personality and purpose. Granted, they pushed it a bit too far, but the idea of a guy that was pushed too far and just broke down then turned into a cosmic powered anti-hero worked worked wonders. I hated that they made all that not his fault.

Honestly, I don't like Kyle because I don't think he's a good fit for the franchise: Green Lantern is about being a space cop, and Kyle never really fit in as a cop while Hal's been in the role forever and fits it like a glove.
They went a totally different direction with the series. While Hal was a space Cop, Kyle's story was about a normal creative guy that got the a magic ring that let him do almost anything he wanted. There was much more of a sense of wonder and adventure in it.

Seriously, seeing people complain about Hal's lack of character makes me wonder if people have watched Law and Order or Dragnet, which are comparable franchises that don't spend that much time developing their leads because that wasn't what was important to the show.
I never liked Law and Order, but Dragnet was pretty good. Of course the big difference there is that the characters in that series actually have an actor, voices, and mannerisms. A No-nonsense guy saying "Just the facts, ma'am," works much better spoken than read.

(I also think Kyle's artist reputation gets a bit overblown: in effect it means he tosses a large green cat at a bad guy rather than a large ball of green energy. Does that actually make a difference? It's still throwing a bunch of green stuff at a bad guy. If Kyle was actually doing something innovative in his way of fighting evil, I'd be more supportive, but I don't really see it.)
Probably because you're choosing not to see it. Kyle came at enemies with a vastly different method and fighting style than others. His creations were much more imaginative and harder to predict.

(Incidentally, I do recognize that some of the Hal/Kyle debate really ends up being "Do you want GL to be more like Law and Order or more like Real World?"
Both those shows suck.

[E-Roc Hubertron]

Honestly, I think becoming Parallax was the best thing that they ever did with Hal. It actually gave him his own personality and purpose. Granted, they pushed it a bit too far, but the idea of a guy that was pushed too far and just broke down then turned into a cosmic powered anti-hero worked worked wonders. I hated that they made all that not his fault.
.


Amen to that!

[Winghead]

As much as I like Geoff Johns, and I do, I'm a huge fan of his writing, and as much as I have enjoyed his run, I think its really because of his ideas and his writing. I think he could have done something equally compelling with Kyle and it would have been just as good. I don't think anyone was clamoring for Hal Jordan to return in a similar way that I think most people liked Wally as Flash, but when Geoff Johns and his awesome artists get on a project it is going to be huge. Don't forget Kyle was just as important a character in GL Rebirth. He narrated over half the story.

I think someting needs to be done with Kyle. Its frustrating to be a Kyle fan and pick up a GLC issue with lots of great Kyle moments only to pick up the following months issue and have hardly any Kyle at all. I have read Kyle's entire run, and I have to say that I was glued to the character. he was relatable and it was more than just great art and different colored rings.

I sincerely hope DC doesn't kill Kyle off. He has far too much potential and I think lots of people love him. I think a Kyle Rayner solo book could sell at least as well as a Nightwing title, possibly more if given a great writer/artist. I would love to see him break away from the GLC, and be his own man representing a differnt Lantern corps.

[E-Roc Hubertron]

I sincerely hope DC doesn't kill Kyle off. He has far too much potential and I think lots of people love him. I think a Kyle Rayner solo book could sell at least as well as a Nightwing title, possibly more if given a great writer/artist. I would love to see him break away from the GLC, and be his own man representing a differnt Lantern corps.


So that would be cool to see kyle in his own book, but i can totally see dc just putting him on the blue corps, which would be cool, but i think the loophole with the blue ring would just be a gimmick that would make it a lame title. He would need to be around the green lanterns to be interesting and he gets beat by just taking the GLs away.

[Violently Apathetic]

Huh, part of the reason I loved Kyle so much as GL was that he felt like DC's answer to Spiderman...

I'd hate to say but I kinda do agree Kyle isn't all that original of a character...

Heck, I forgot about Peter hanging out at the Coffee Bean, so you could argue that they have that in common as well.

Though let's be honest, most fictional works use set character types, and comics are no exception. The fact that Kyle is similar to a lot of other characters does not necessarily mean he brought nothing new and interesting to the title. His character type was new in that role (Green Lantern), and he's developed in a different direction than Peter Parker (if I were a more bitter individual I'd be inclined to insert a cynical reference to character regression and BND at this point). Hal and Guy are as much stock types as Kyle, and John started off as one type of character ('angry black male') and developed into something else.

[Winghead]

Does anyone have a paranoid feeling that Kyle will be killed off?? I don't think there as many people fighting for him at DC as there were for Dick Grayson, and Geoff Johns has never admitted to liking him, and he is the ringleader of the whole GL operation.

[Matt]

Huh, part of the reason I loved Kyle so much as GL was that he felt like DC's answer to Spiderman...

I'd hate to say but I kinda do agree Kyle isn't all that original of a character...

I've been reading the old 'The Ray' series and I could have sworn that Ray Terril and Kyle Rayner were more or less the same character.

[E-Roc Hubertron]

Does anyone have a paranoid feeling that Kyle will be killed off?? I don't think there as many people fighting for him at DC as there were for Dick Grayson, and Geoff Johns has never admitted to liking him, and he is the ringleader of the whole GL operation.

I do to, especially after reading that thread about who will die. I think they would get too much crap for killing john (who would be targeted as a black guy getting cut out) and too many people like what they have done with guy. Killing Hal again would just be dang silly. Kyle has the least important role. My guess, he finishes his painting then get killed in an epic way and someone has to paint him on it etc....

[Winghead]

GLC is selling really well. I'm sure Kyle has something to do with that.

[Matt]

Here was me thinking it was the nice art and solid story telling.

[E-Roc Hubertron]

True as that may be i know before I got caught up that I wanted to buy GLC for Kyle. He is the only character i follow semi-religiously.

[Kaos]

I didn't grow up on Hal so Kyle is the Green Lantern in my eyes.
I prefer reading stuff with him in as well.

Kyle for the spotlight.

[Hullababy]

I didn't grow up on Hal so Kyle is the Green Lantern in my eyes.
I prefer reading stuff with him in as well.

Kyle for the spotlight.

Hey guess what? Kyle was Green Lantern when I initially got into comics too. But yet I never liked him and could never get into the GL book when he was starring as "THE green lantern" . I actually collected some older Hal era stuff and found the concept of the corps and an intergalactic police force to be much more intersting than reading about what if DC had created peter parker and made him Green Lantern ?

[tjarvis]

Here was me thinking it was the nice art and solid story telling.

As somebody else pointed out earlier, the fact that Kyle gets over 35,000+ in his own mini series show that there is a community that cares for the character. I like and buy GLC, but I would definitely stop doing so if they cut Kyle out of the book. He's the character that I care about.

Hell, look at the Countdown numbers. The book received a short term spike in numbers once they added Kyle as a regular. It's just the suckiness of the series that caused it to decline again.

[Vic Vega]

Query: What artistic stereotype are you thinking of, exactly? The only stereotypes I can think of that are applied to young male artists are that they're either gay or sensitive new age males (not exactly enlightened viewpoints, but eh, stereotypes....). Kyle wasn't (and isn't) either. He's a bit of a dreamer at times, but that was never stressed as much as say...his temper or emotional immaturity.

I'm not disagreeing, I'm just curious as to what exactly you mean.

I don't see it either. Or the Peter Parker comparisons.

When we first see Kyle he is in a commited relationship. He wasn't working steady but many freelance artists don't. It the nature of the job.

I've met guys who were like Kyle in everthing but name.

I think that was part of the appeal of the character at the time. He was a lot like the audience(or thier older brother's of the audience)

There was a good deal of audience identification in the DC of the 90's:Kyle, Ray, Damage, Connor Hawk(in a way). Audience identification dd real well for Marvel.

One of the binds that DC is in now is that when they began reversing what they had done in the 90's they permanently alienated a good bit of the fanbase. There are at least two Green Lanterns, Flashes and Green Arrows. If Kyle or Connor get books you P.O. the Hal and Ollie fans and vice versa.

The fanbase is split on which character they want to see featured so no matter what DC does its going to be a problem.

[TeamED209]

I don't see it either. Or the Peter Parker comparisons.

When we first see Kyle he is in a commited relationship. He wasn't working steady but many freelance artists don't. It the nature of the job.

I've met guys who were like Kyle in everthing but name.

I think that was part of the appeal of the character at the time. He was a lot like the audience(or thier older brother's of the audience)

There was a good deal of audience identification in the DC of the 90's:Kyle, Ray, Damage, Connor Hawk(in a way). Audience identification dd real well for Marvel.

One of the binds that DC is in now is that when they began reversing what they had done in the 90's they permanently alienated a good bit of the fanbase. There are at least two Green Lanterns, Flashes and Green Arrows. If Kyle or Connor get books you P.O. the Hal and Ollie fans and vice versa.

The fanbase is split on which character they want to see featured so no matter what DC does its going to be a problem.

Yeah but DC got themselves into that mess by building up characters in the 90's and now bringing back the old heroes and reversing the whole legacy aspect so im interested to see if they can come up with anything other than "replacement gets put in 2nd spot" when dealing with wally...

[E-Roc Hubertron]

Yeah but DC got themselves into that mess by building up characters in the 90's and now bringing back the old heroes and reversing the whole legacy aspect so im interested to see if they can come up with anything other than "replacement gets put in 2nd spot" when dealing with wally...

I do also think it will be interested to see how DC deals with the whole Batman and Superman things. Will they build the new characters up in the 90s only to replace them with their old counter parts? At marvel it looks like that could happen with Cap.

Thats why I thought Hal being the Specter was a cool idea, it kept him around but in a different context which allowed for different development. I know a lot of people didn't like this era but I thought the intention was cool, and maybe superman will develop okay because he is still around in a context.

However I can also understand some problems with this, bruce wayne will always be batman so........

[KYLeo71]

I'm really not all that familiar with Kyle Rayner. I know the name and I know he's one of the Green Lantern's, but that's about it. Isn't he the guy who became the Green Lantern during DC's big "we're all new and all different! we've got the same characters you know, but not really!" period in the 1990s where they started replacing all their well-known properties with 'new and improved' versions as a way of showing everyone that they were young and hip and not their father's or grandfather's comic book company (while, at the same time, virtually disappearing from newstands which meant that the only people who could even get comics were generally the fathers and grandfathers)? Isn't Kyle Rayner to Hal Jordon as Jason is to Ronnie? As Artemis is to Diana? As Jaime is to Ted? As Ryan is to Ray? As Wally is to Barry? Is Dick is to Bruce?

[IMJ]

I'm really not all that familiar with Kyle Rayner. I know the name and I know he's one of the Green Lantern's, but that's about it. Isn't he the guy who became the Green Lantern during DC's big "we're all new and all different! we've got the same characters you know, but not really!" period in the 1990s where they started replacing all their well-known properties with 'new and improved' versions as a way of showing everyone that they were young and hip and not their father's or grandfather's comic book company (while, at the same time, virtually disappearing from newstands which meant that the only people who could even get comics were generally the fathers and grandfathers)? Isn't Kyle Rayner to Hal Jordon as Jason is to Ronnie? As Artemis is to Diana? As Jaime is to Ted? As Ryan is to Ray? As Wally is to Barry? Is Dick is to Bruce?

Well.. Kyle wasn't a protege or a sidekick. He was a direct replacment for Hal during the whole Emerald Twilight story.

[TeamED209]

I do also think it will be interested to see how DC deals with the whole Batman and Superman things. Will they build the new characters up in the 90s only to replace them with their old counter parts? At marvel it looks like that could happen with Cap.

Thats why I thought Hal being the Specter was a cool idea, it kept him around but in a different context which allowed for different development. I know a lot of people didn't like this era but I thought the intention was cool, and maybe superman will develop okay because he is still around in a context.

However I can also understand some problems with this, bruce wayne will always be batman so........


although the superman and batman stories going on are temporary where the kyle/wally/connor stuff felt relatively permanent....

I think it would have been great to see kyle possibly restart a smaller version of the corps and keep hal as what he was before just before final night (essentially a green lantern with no rules) as thats the only time i found hal to be especially interesting as a character...

[Babylon23]

I really don't see what Kyle fans have to complain about. He's featured prominantly in GLC, given almost equal time with Guy Gardner as main characters. He was given a major role in Sinestro War and shown to be suprerior to Hal in fighting of possession by Parallax. He was given his own miniseries. Personally I think he's getting plenty of exposure.

He hasn't been killed off and he won't be anytime soon. Johns has had plenty of opportunities to kill Kyle and he hasn't taken any one of them. It's simply not going to happen so stop worrying about it.

Just be happy that he hasn't gone suddenly mad, wiped out the corps, been transformed into a major villain that tries to rewrite reality, killed, then resurrected as the Spectre. Be happy that you haven't had to wait 10 years for your favourite character to get back on track.

It seems that Kyle fans won't be happy until Hal is dead again. Why not just be happy that your favourite character is a major character in a very well written, well drawn and well selling title and let the rest of us enjoy GL with Hal.

[E-Roc Hubertron]

He hasn't been killed off and he won't be anytime soon. Johns has had plenty of opportunities to kill Kyle and he hasn't taken any one of them. It's simply not going to happen so stop worrying about it.
.


Oh we will see....we will see...

[Babylon23]

Oh we will see....we will see...

Kyle fans have been making the exact same rumblings for years now. First Kyle was going to die in Rebirth, then he was going to die in Infinite Crisis, then he was going to die in Countdown, then he was going to die in Sinestro Corps War... I think it's safe to say that if Johns or DC didn't kill him in any of those series they're not going to kill him now.

[Retro315]

Well.. Kyle wasn't a protege or a sidekick. He was a direct replacment for Hal during the whole Emerald Twilight story.

Agreed. Kyle is the exception rather than the rule as far as "young/hip/new/edgy replacements" go.

He's may have gotten the same hype the various replacement heroes of the 90's got, but he actually did something with it and made it work. Partly because of solid writing, partly because Green Lantern is a concept that's got more room for extra characters.

[Shellhead]

Problem is, I think there are a large portion of GL fans who will NEVER like Kyle, because of the stuff DC did just to prop HIM up. Hal had to be turned into a villain. John was crippled. Guy was turned into a freaky alien. Killowag died. And the Corps.....the poor corps....Jade was depowered, and her dad gave up his name to Kyle.
It was just too much.

Yeah, I will never be able to separate Kyle from all the crap that DC dumped on Hal and the rest of the GLC to make way for Kyle. And it was a bad tradeoff at the time, dumping the Corps, the other Lanterns from Earth, etc, just for some frankly average guy with a magic ring.

[Dafyr]

It is a shame people did not give Kyle a chance because of what DC editorial mandated to happen with Hal. In the same way that Hal's death gave the character way more depth than he had before. It is a shame that they reconned the blame of Hal's falling. If i were him and my loved ones were killed of in such a way, would I not try to do everything to get them back? DC forced a big shade of grey, but allowed for a hero's return when Hal reignited the sun no? Even when he went on to become the Specter, you don't keep a character around, unless there are plans for him.
Which leads to Kyle. I am a fan, maybe because I mostly read marvel. maybe the character was reminding me of people who I actually know. Maybe just maybe the fantasy of a comic where a average guy get some powers and struggles on how to live up to it's legacy. To anyone who missed the story involving how Kyle's girlfriend was killed, you missed a very great story. The thought that you just gain powers fight crime, and your life will just go on was very realistic (for a comic).
Both are great characters. But there are 4 great Gl's. So yeah Kyle has to share the spot light now, but I think he should become Ion again. I don't think one has to like Hal and hate Kyle or vice-versa.

[Winghead]

I think the problem is that Hal Jordan disappeared right around the time that comics began to really focus on deep characterization. From the very first arc of Kyle Rayner's run as GL, it was clear that Ron Marz wanted us to know Kyle as a person. I felt that way thoughout Wally West's Flash and most of the Nightwing series. Kyle is my favorite character because of the way he dealt with relationships, suffered heartbreak but always tried to stay hopeful and inspiring. He was written as a genuine person, and there were many moments during GL volume 3 that were more heartwarming than anything I've ever read in a Spider Man comic.

Hal Jordan comes back, and while GL is awesome now. The art is killer, there are lots of bright colors, and unique plot devices, it is clearly a different book. It is basically event and plot driven and very little emphasis is put on the actual character of Hal Jordan.

It pains me to read Green Lantern Corps and read a few pages of classic Kyle Rayner dialogue and character develpment only to find out that those are his only two pages in the issue, or to read an etirely Kyle centred issue, and then have to read 2 straight months of Sodam Yat.

Apparently the Kyle/Soranik relationship is going to be front and centre for a while and there will be some good Kyle/Sinestro moments coming as well. I would love to see Kyle as a focus again as opposed to a guy that goes along for the ride playing straight man to Guy Gardner.

[Babylon23]

I think the problem is that Hal Jordan disappeared right around the time that comics began to really focus on deep characterization.

Couldn't disagree more. Deep characterisation became a focus in the late 70's early 80's and was clearly prevalant well before Kyle appeared. IMO, Kyle was just another hamfisted attempt to force increased sales by wiping out the main character in a series and replace him with a younger, hipper kewler version, complete with the requisite amount of 90's Peter Parker-style angst. It's a credit to Ron Marz that he was able to work around the standard model for this kind of replacement and actually create a character that has endured.

Personally, I don't see how having a character go crazy, try to wipe out reality, die and be resurrected as the Spectre can be seen as good character development. Hal Jordan already had plenty of personality, it just wasn't the 90's angst personality that is so common when it was first decided to replace him. I'm glad Johns has been able to tap into that. I love his depiction of Hal.

I think DC has things reasonably well balanced right now. Hal has GL, Kyle and Guy are the two main characters in GLC and Alan Scott is featured heavily in JSA. Really, the only people who should be complaining are John Stewart fans.

[rickfury188]

I'm a child of the '90s, so I grew up with Kyle and Wally. I loved the dynamics between them because Wally was the "new" Flash, but he had a lot of experience behind him, while Kyle was the new Green Lantern and was a complete rookie. One aspect that I liked about Kyle(I'm not sure if it's been retconned), is that the guardians just gave him a ring and trusted whoever it was given to to do the right thing. In Morrison's run, Kyle was constantly trying to prove himself worthy of being called a Green Lantern and was living in the shadow of Hal. Like someone mentioned before, I loved the part where Daniel tells Kyle he'll be better than Hal because he, "Knows fear."

[Violently Apathetic]

Hal Jordan already had plenty of personality, it just wasn't the 90's angst personality that is so common when it was first decided to replace him. I'm glad Johns has been able to tap into that. I love his depiction of Hal.

The only thing I dislike about Johns' characterization of Hal is that the character has lost a bit of his (dare I say it?) goofiness. I kind of miss him getting hit in the head with stuff and having a sense of humour that didn't sound like every other action star out there. A friend mentioned Waid's characterization in JLA: Year One and The Brave and Bold when we were discussing this a few days ago, and that's almost exactly how I'd like to see Hal written.

Actually, I think he's a bit too much like a generic action hero in general, a bit of wit and whimsy could help.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Ah, the more things change, the more things stay the same.

The fans of Kyle Rayner, a character whose introduction resulting the $#!t-canning of dozens of great characters and concepts for nearly a decade, are upset that their favorite Green Lantern isn't getting the respect you think he deserves.

Welcome to my world, circa 1994 to 2004.

[Matt]

Ah, the more things change, the more things stay the same.

The fans of Kyle Rayner, a character whose introduction resulting the $#!t-canning of dozens of great characters and concepts for nearly a decade, are upset that their favorite Green Lantern isn't getting the respect you think he deserves.

Welcome to my world, circa 1994 to 2004.

Somewhere, various H.E.A.T. members are laughing with the irony.

[TeamED209]

I think the problem is that Hal Jordan disappeared right around the time that comics began to really focus on deep characterization. From the very first arc of Kyle Rayner's run as GL, it was clear that Ron Marz wanted us to know Kyle as a person. I felt that way thoughout Wally West's Flash and most of the Nightwing series. Kyle is my favorite character because of the way he dealt with relationships, suffered heartbreak but always tried to stay hopeful and inspiring. He was written as a genuine person, and there were many moments during GL volume 3 that were more heartwarming than anything I've ever read in a Spider Man comic.

Hal Jordan comes back, and while GL is awesome now. The art is killer, there are lots of bright colors, and unique plot devices, it is clearly a different book. It is basically event and plot driven and very little emphasis is put on the actual character of Hal Jordan.

It pains me to read Green Lantern Corps and read a few pages of classic Kyle Rayner dialogue and character develpment only to find out that those are his only two pages in the issue, or to read an etirely Kyle centred issue, and then have to read 2 straight months of Sodam Yat.

Apparently the Kyle/Soranik relationship is going to be front and centre for a while and there will be some good Kyle/Sinestro moments coming as well. I would love to see Kyle as a focus again as opposed to a guy that goes along for the ride playing straight man to Guy Gardner.

Well put i couldn't agree more....While i enjoy the whole cast of GLC i certainly look forward to the kyle bits hte most, to be honest im starting to prefer GLC to the standard GL and while GL is well written the only reason i really get it monthly is to keep up with whats going on in GL world...

[Darrell D.]

Somewhere, various H.E.A.T. members are laughing with the irony.

HEAT members don't laugh.
They cry, loud and long.
And while I wish I could tell my grandkids that I fought in the great message board wars for the honor of some FICTIONAL characters, I really could care less. Kyle? Hal? Who cares? Just tell us fun stories.
If only the man-babies in HEAT had this realization.

[Matt]

You know, I was a member of H.E.A.T. at one point.

They actually did a lot of neat stuff, like give comics away to kids wards in hospitals (the target was 3,600 comics but ended up being well over 5,000) and funded John Broome's only convention appearance.

[dumbstruck]

I've never been a regular GL reader. However, having read Hal in sporadic issues through the late 80's/early 90's, and the sporadic Kyle issues through the remainder of the 90's plus his appearances in JLA, Kyle just seemed a more interesting character to me. Kyle's characterization was more of the Peter Parker everyman with everyday problems. Hal always did seem a one-note character. In everything, he was the staunch, by-the-book, fearless policeman. He just wasn't relatable. Relatability is what made Kyle such a success. Even now, the GL issues I've read under Johns (Rebirth, SCW, and the Blackest Night prelude issues), Hal doesn't seem to be a very well rounded character. His whole schtick is he's still "the best of the Corps". But as a character, he's still boring. I just find it a sad state when you care more for everyone else in the book than you do the title character.

[dumbstruck]

I think the problem is that Hal Jordan disappeared right around the time that comics began to really focus on deep characterization. From the very first arc of Kyle Rayner's run as GL, it was clear that Ron Marz wanted us to know Kyle as a person. I felt that way thoughout Wally West's Flash and most of the Nightwing series. Kyle is my favorite character because of the way he dealt with relationships, suffered heartbreak but always tried to stay hopeful and inspiring. He was written as a genuine person, and there were many moments during GL volume 3 that were more heartwarming than anything I've ever read in a Spider Man comic.

I have to disagree here as well. Characterization was prevalent during Byrne's Superman relaunch, Baron's Flash relaunch, and Perez's Wonder Woman relaunch, all of which were in the 86-87 timeframe. Kyle didn't show up until what....1993? Hal is just a boring person. His supporting cast and the situations he's put in are what make his title, not Hal as a character. IMHO of course.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Ah, the more things change, the more things stay the same.

The fans of Kyle Rayner, a character whose introduction resulting the $#!t-canning of dozens of great characters and concepts for nearly a decade, are upset that their favorite Green Lantern isn't getting the respect you think he deserves.

Welcome to my world, circa 1994 to 2004.

Hal was more interesting a villain . He had a great Magneto quality to him. Its DC's fault they made him the Spectre to be honest. Hal could have done that role good.

Johns work has been very...up/down with Hal. I would have loved to have had Hal work to regain redemption as GL. Not find the missing POW GL's. That struck me as someone wanting to atone Jordan to quick.

I loved Secret Origin. I did like that by Johns.

[Seven_Ride]

Kyle's a nice character. I read someone described him as the ultimate boyfriend for your daughter, and that fits perfectly. Nice guy, artist. Very much a classic Marvel feet-of-clay character, compared to the more traditional broad, widescreen DC characters.

Which is Hal. Ultimately, the GL concept works better with Hal, because all the toys go with him. The cast, the history, the villains, the pedigree. The GL name was built with him, which is why the changeover to such an 'Aww, shucks' nice character like Kyle was so controversial.

Hal's a more mythological type of character. He's DC's Odysseus, lots of epic tales of victory, defeat and loss. His flaws are huge as well. Whereas Kyle was intended to be a nice, real-world character with real-people problems, like paying rent this month. Not dealing with an alien invasion led from a one-time mentor, who is now an a fascist leading his own intergalactic army. Or even tragic internal flaws.

Which makes him a weird replacement for Hal, always was. You can't really replace Aragorn with Peter Parker. They serve different types of stories. Which can be a sideways positive: There's room for both of them, in different settings.

[the Hornet]

Somewhere, various H.E.A.T. members are laughing with the irony.

They shouldn't laugh. They should be sympatectic. After all, the world is round!

[Hullababy]

I've never been a regular GL reader. However, having read Hal in sporadic issues through the late 80's/early 90's, and the sporadic Kyle issues through the remainder of the 90's plus his appearances in JLA, Kyle just seemed a more interesting character to me. Kyle's characterization was more of the Peter Parker everyman with everyday problems. Hal always did seem a one-note character. In everything, he was the staunch, by-the-book, fearless policeman. He just wasn't relatable. Relatability is what made Kyle such a success. Even now, the GL issues I've read under Johns (Rebirth, SCW, and the Blackest Night prelude issues), Hal doesn't seem to be a very well rounded character. His whole schtick is he's still "the best of the Corps". But as a character, he's still boring. I just find it a sad state when you care more for everyone else in the book than you do the title character.

Couldn't disagree more. Pre COIE Hal was way more relatable than superman,batman or the other heroes. and BY THE BOOK ? I don't know what stuff you've been reading but Hal chose Carol over the corps and actually stopped being green lantern but then his whole life spun out of control and we had John Stewart as GL back then. I still say the people who say Hal is a one-note character are either biased Kyle fans or never looked too deep into the character in the first place.

[dumbstruck]

Couldn't disagree more. Pre COIE Hal was way more relatable than superman,batman or the other heroes. and BY THE BOOK ? I don't know what stuff you've been reading but Hal chose Carol over the corps and actually stopped being green lantern but then his whole life spun out of control and we had John Stewart as GL back then. I still say the people who say Hal is a one-note character are either biased Kyle fans or never looked too deep into the character in the first place.


Let me repeat myself since you've missed the key part of my post....

I've never been a regular GL reader. However, having read Hal in sporadic issues through the late 80's/early 90's, and the sporadic Kyle issues through the remainder of the 90's plus his appearances in JLA, Kyle just seemed a more interesting character to me. Kyle's characterization was more of the Peter Parker everyman with everyday problems. Hal always did seem a one-note character. In everything, he was the staunch, by-the-book, fearless policeman. He just wasn't relatable. Relatability is what made Kyle such a success. Even now, the GL issues I've read under Johns (Rebirth, SCW, and the Blackest Night prelude issues), Hal doesn't seem to be a very well rounded character. His whole schtick is he's still "the best of the Corps". But as a character, he's still boring. I just find it a sad state when you care more for everyone else in the book than you do the title character.


This isn't a Kyle vs Hal fanboy thing. As I said, I was never a regular reader of either character. However, not being a regular reader, I think it's pretty telling that Kyle still came off as a more fleshed out character in the handful of Kyle GL issues I've read vs the handful of Hal GL issues I've read.

[Shellhead]

Kyle's a nice character. I read someone described him as the ultimate boyfriend for your daughter, and that fits perfectly. Nice guy, artist. Very much a classic Marvel feet-of-clay character, compared to the more traditional broad, widescreen DC characters.

Which is Hal. Ultimately, the GL concept works better with Hal, because all the toys go with him. The cast, the history, the villains, the pedigree. The GL name was built with him, which is why the changeover to such an 'Aww, shucks' nice character like Kyle was so controversial.

Hal's a more mythological type of character. He's DC's Odysseus, lots of epic tales of victory, defeat and loss. His flaws are huge as well. Whereas Kyle was intended to be a nice, real-world character with real-people problems, like paying rent this month. Not dealing with an alien invasion led from a one-time mentor, who is now an a fascist leading his own intergalactic army. Or even tragic internal flaws.

Which makes him a weird replacement for Hal, always was. You can't really replace Aragorn with Peter Parker. They serve different types of stories. Which can be a sideways positive: There's room for both of them, in different settings.

Excellent analysis.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Let me repeat myself since you've missed the key part of my post....

I've never been a regular GL reader. However, having read Hal in sporadic issues through the late 80's/early 90's, and the sporadic Kyle issues through the remainder of the 90's plus his appearances in JLA, Kyle just seemed a more interesting character to me. Kyle's characterization was more of the Peter Parker everyman with everyday problems. Hal always did seem a one-note character. In everything, he was the staunch, by-the-book, fearless policeman. He just wasn't relatable. Relatability is what made Kyle such a success. Even now, the GL issues I've read under Johns (Rebirth, SCW, and the Blackest Night prelude issues), Hal doesn't seem to be a very well rounded character. His whole schtick is he's still "the best of the Corps". But as a character, he's still boring. I just find it a sad state when you care more for everyone else in the book than you do the title character.


This isn't a Kyle vs Hal fanboy thing. As I said, I was never a regular reader of either character. However, not being a regular reader, I think it's pretty telling that Kyle still came off as a more fleshed out character in the handful of Kyle GL issues I've read vs the handful of Hal GL issues I've read.

That hits it with me too in a way. Rayner was styled after Peter Parker and it worked. They found success with doing it. Marz has said that people told him at Marvel that they saw what he had done with Rayner and they modeled teen Tony Stark after him ! (which didn't work)

I think thats what made Kyle such a good character. He could screw up at times. But he would always manage to pull it out in the end.

The problem with GL now ...beyond that Secret Origin arc , is the fact Hal really doesn't have much of a character as you pointed out. He doesn't have much of a character beyond being the object of 2 women wanting to f-ck his brains out. :tongue:

Hell... the most interesting part of GL was the interaction between Hal and his brother. Which ended so we could get HUGE EPIC STORYTELLING . I'd rather go back to more of the character stuff with Hal. Than reading the rainbow lantern clusterf-k , which we know will happen soon with DARKEST NIGHT.

[Superbeast]

Hal is like a placeholder for me. I know his story and what he's went through but I just can't care for him because, quite frankly, he's not as deep as a character as Guy Gardner, John Stewart or Kyle Rayner for me. Guy's cocky attitude among the Corps compared to his relationship with Ice show two sides of a very conflicted guy who obviously has good intentions but doesn't always express them appropriately which gets him in trouble. That he didn't disturb Ice while she slept when he left Earth for Oa but did leave a note only to moon Batman as a way of saying farewell later in that issue shows this conflicted mentality. He's a good guy at heart even if he's a jerk on the surface.

John Stewart is the thinking man's GL who has endured a lot of persecution as a regular black man and as a GL but still does what is right despite any adversity he may face. He's even been a Guardian and was offered an Alpha Lantern spot only to turn it down, most likely because he knows how the Guardians really work.

Kyle is the youthful dreamer who realised immediately being a GL meant a target was painted on his back and has lost countless friends, 2 girlfriends and his mother in part due to being a GL, but he still carries on because every personal loss is measured against the thousands of people he has saved.

Hal is destined to be The Greatest Green Lantern even after all the crap he's pulled, has women lining up to date him, has Corps competing for his allegiance, works as a test pilot, has family he can turn to as well as good friendships with Green Arrow and The Flash. Yet somehow he's still a stubborn, naive, emotionally stunted and pointlessly hostile character at times despite this pretty good personal life and friends that can empathise with him. Also given his experiences as Parallax and the Spectre, that he would be at all naive or close minded at this point doesn't really add up. He should in many ways be the stable hub and father figure for the Earth GLs but Stewart comes across as filling that role. I probably enjoy GL more for what goes on in it than because of Hal personally. I also wanted to see more about him fitting back in on Earth and being an uncle, brother, brother in law so I could engage with the character on some personal level at this new stage of his life before I worried about how he'd do against space monsters. I enjoyed the early issues where the Lost Lanterns still doubted him and Hal was almost having to earn his stripes all over again but that didn't seem to last nearly as long as it should have.

[aut0matic]

the main argument i see going for kyle is that he's more relatable.

i feel like i can relate more to hal.. guess i'm just a stud like that :cool:

i think kyle's a fine support character, but he's easily overshadowed when surrounded by the other gung-ho lanterns who take charge and kick ass. after all this time, kyle still acts like a n00b, imo.

[Superbeast]

the main argument i see going for kyle is that he's more relatable.

i feel like i can relate more to hal.. guess i'm just a stud like that :cool:

i think kyle's a fine support character, but he's easily overshadowed when surrounded by the other gung-ho lanterns who take charge and kick ass. after all this time, kyle still acts like a n00b, imo.

Well seeing as how the majority of us probably haven't had ultimate power, went insane, died, became God's right hand man, came back to life 10 years younger and then had everyone in the galaxy either trying to hump or hire us, I don't think you can blame us for finding a guy in his 20s struggling to balance his personal and professional life while constantly having to deal with unwelcome problems that come from nowhere more akin to ourselves.

[aut0matic]

Well seeing as how the majority of us probably haven't had ultimate power, went insane, died, became God's right hand man, came back to life 10 years younger and then had everyone in the galaxy either trying to hump or hire us, I don't think you can blame us for finding a guy in his 20s struggling to balance his personal and professional life while constantly having to deal with unwelcome problems that come from nowhere more akin to ourselves.

kyle as ion isn't ultimate power? i fail to see how you consider that different.

i was talking personality type. hal as a take-charge guy who does what needs to be done to finish the job, kyle as the soft-spoken one who seems content at being second fiddle all his life.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Well seeing as how the majority of us probably haven't had ultimate power, went insane, died, became God's right hand man, came back to life 10 years younger and then had everyone in the galaxy either trying to hump or hire us, I don't think you can blame us for finding a guy in his 20s struggling to balance his personal and professional life while constantly having to deal with unwelcome problems that come from nowhere more akin to ourselves.

Well I guess I'm not a stud like Hal. :tongue:

[SUPERECWFAN1]

kyle as ion isn't ultimate power? i fail to see how you consider that different.

Except Kyle gave that power up as he realized it was too much. He had the Ion power and gave it away. And the 2nd time he became Ion is when Jade gave him her powers as well. (which it seems....they ended as well)

i was talking personality type. hal as a take-charge guy who does what needs to be done to finish the job, kyle as the soft-spoken one who seems content at being second fiddle all his life.

Which no one is argueing Kyle's role now. But at one time...he was the guy that was the #1 guy. And had to make the tough decisions. He had to rebuild the Corps and keep it around. Now DC has his role as support to Guy , John and Hal.

[dumbstruck]

kyle as ion isn't ultimate power? i fail to see how you consider that different.

i was talking personality type. hal as a take-charge guy who does what needs to be done to finish the job, kyle as the soft-spoken one who seems content at being second fiddle all his life.

Hal, who's biggest personal issue is largely little more than who he should date? If that's what you relate to; if that's your biggest problem in life, than you're either oblivious to everything and everyone around you, or you're the luckiest SOB on the face of the earth.

[Superbeast]

kyle as ion isn't ultimate power? i fail to see how you consider that different.

i was talking personality type. hal as a take-charge guy who does what needs to be done to finish the job, kyle as the soft-spoken one who seems content at being second fiddle all his life.

Kyle as Ion didn't wield his power with confidence otherwise he wouldn't have need Hal to save his bacon against Nero. Kyle has always been the guy with the power, potential and the imagination but not always the confidence. That's why Sinestro managed to break him by telling him about his mother's murder by Despotellis. Kyle is the guy that tries his best even if he doesn't always succeed. He's a lot more human in that respect and the fact he does still feel fear but deals with it is more relatable than being completely fearless.

Hal will succeed no matter what because that's what Hal does. Even death and God couldn't stop him from being a Green Lantern when the dust cleared. While he embodies the ideology of the GL Corps the depths of his character since his return to humanity really should be plumbed for maximum effect.

I accept he's the GL MVP after Sodam Yat but why is he still considered that in light of his past actions and why would every other Corps want him, particularly the Blue Lanterns since he doesn't actually seem to want to work with them or have the right attitude to get the ring to work correctly? It doesn't make sense other than to try bolster his rep as GL MVP.

[Alan2099]

Yet somehow he's still a stubborn, naive, emotionally stunted and pointlessly hostile character at times
Boy that makes the character sound so much more interesting than he actually is.

[aut0matic]

Except Kyle gave that power up as he realized it was too much. He had the Ion power and gave it away. And the 2nd time he became Ion is when Jade gave him her powers as well. (which it seems....they ended as well)

the last time, kyle had his power stripped from him against his will by sinestro. not that it really matters to me how he gained or lost his powers, but the previous poster stated hal having ultimate power made him unrelatable.

Which no one is argueing Kyle's role now. But at one time...he was the guy that was the #1 guy. And had to make the tough decisions. He had to rebuild the Corps and keep it around. Now DC has his role as support to Guy , John and Hal.

exactly, he was the #1 guy because nobody else was around. while it's admirable he was able to keep the legacy going, now that the other GL's are back, he's not THE gl anymore. hal is. i can't see any possibility of kyle being #1 while hal's around, he just doesn't have the drive for it.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

exactly, he was the #1 guy because nobody else was around. while it's admirable he was able to keep the legacy going, now that the other GL's are back, he's not THE gl anymore. hal is. i can't see any possibility of kyle being #1 while hal's around, he just doesn't have the drive for it.

That and the fact DC won't let a writer have him as a solo character and make him that #1. The last time they did it was for DC Countdown. Which ....weirdly...sold pretty damn good . And here was the cast :

Jason Todd
Kyle Rayner
Donna Troy
Moniter
Pied Piper
Trickster
Holly Robinson
Harley Quinn
Jimmy Olsen.


Rayner can support a regular series. the 12 issue Ion series proved he can. DC seems to want him in the GL Corps title .

[aut0matic]

Hal, who's biggest personal issue is largely little more than who he should date? If that's what you relate to; if that's your biggest problem in life, than you're either oblivious to everything and everyone around you, or you're the luckiest SOB on the face of the earth.

i wish... heh. but in all honesty hal puts duty above his own personal life, which when you're in a position such as his, is definitely a good thing. i'd much rather have a confident, experienced guy that can call the shots fighting for the universe than a guy hung up on self-pity for getting his gfs and mother killed.

i agree we haven't seen as much of hal's personal life lately, but i like the action-heavy GL book and think hal's better suited for it. GLC with its ensemble cast allows for greater character interaction and growth, and when things slow down in the main book, i wouldn't mind seeing hal switch over to GLC for a while to see some of that.

[Superbeast]

exactly, he was the #1 guy because nobody else was around. while it's admirable he was able to keep the legacy going, now that the other GL's are back, he's not THE gl anymore. hal is. i can't see any possibility of kyle being #1 while hal's around, he just doesn't have the drive for it.

He was #1 because at the time the GL mythos were so bogged down and Hal had became so vanilla they thought a big change was needed. I actually felt Kyle's time as the lone GL made for some very interesting stories as he had to deal with the fallout from the entire GLC like Fatality targeting him because of John Stewart's actions. He had to deal with the responsibility of being THE GL who had to hit the ground running then just keep going and it made for more interesting material at the time than just being able to call the Corps in for back up.

[Superbeast]

i wish... heh. but in all honesty hal puts duty above his own personal life, which when you're in a position such as his, is definitely a good thing. i'd much rather have a confident, experienced guy that can call the shots fighting for the universe than a guy hung up on self-pity for getting his gfs and mother killed.

i agree we haven't seen as much of hal's personal life lately, but i like the action-heavy GL book and think hal's better suited for it. GLC with its ensemble cast allows for greater character interaction and growth, and when things slow down in the main book, i wouldn't mind seeing hal switch over to GLC for a while to see some of that.

That's the thing though. Kyle doesn't get hung up on them. He has pretty much accepted from the beginning being a GL put a target on his back but has continued on anyway despite his losses. That to me is more endearing than "hey, no time for love hot boss and sexy copilot, I'm off to the stars where I'm top dog to handle this intergalactic battle, maybe when I get back I'll decide which one of you to take to dinner and which to take to bed". Hell, Hal lost his city and went crazy. Kyle has lost a lot more on the job but has hung in there. Even when possessed with Parallax, he hung in there. He takes a kicking but keeps on ticking. That it's only now catching up with him but that he wants to paint a memorial mural rather than sit around crying about it shows he takes the rough with the smooth and then tries to put a positive spin on everything anyway.

[Paladin573]

Nope, Hal will always be # 1. When reading Kyle Rayner as GL I felt like I was reading somethings beside a GL comic..."Days of our lives" or something. Don't get me wrong the stories were good some were great but they never had that edge that Hal brought. Hal was epic. Kyle was down to earth.

To me the GL was suppose to be epic bigger then life. Kyle just seemed out of place. I am sure my opinion would have been different if I started off reading Kyle

Kyle worked for a lot of people though. My son-in-law is a Kyle person. He started off with Kyle.

IMO older readers that started off with Hal probably prefer Hal 7 out of 10 and the numbers are probable the same for younger readers that started off reading Kyle would prefer Kyle 7 out of 10.

[Superbeast]

Nope, Hal will always be # 1. When reading Kyle Rayner as GL I felt like I was reading somethings beside a GL comic..."Days of our lives" or something. Don't get me wrong the stories were good some were great but they never had that edge that Hal brought. Hal was epic. Kyle was down to earth.

To me the GL was suppose to be epic bigger then life. Kyle just seemed out of place. I am sure my opinion would have been different if I started off reading Kyle

Kyle worked for a lot of people though. My son-in-law is a Kyle person. He started off with Kyle.

IMO older readers that started off with Hal probably prefer Hal 7 out of 10 and the numbers are probable the same for younger readers that started off reading Kyle would prefer Kyle 7 out of 10.

I only really enjoyed classic Hal when he had others to play off, particularly Green Arrow and John Stewart. I did enjoy the character in JLA: Year One but the really old comics where he's doing his thing solo, while beautifully drawn, don't grab me storywise much.

[Alex L]

I don't see how Hal is more relatable.

I can see Hal as the more iconic GL (mostly because he was there for decades before Kyle), possibly the wish-fulfillment character (daredevil hotshot pilot with magic ring) or even the guy to look up to, but relatable? Not so much for me, though your mileage may vary.

[Babylon23]

Rayner can support a regular series. the 12 issue Ion series proved he can.

And I have no problem whatsoever with Kyle having his own series. What annoys me is this either/or approach of some posters who seem to think that Hal Jordan has to die again for Kyle to have his own series. Kyle can have his own series but it doesn't need to be at the expense of Hal Jordan or any other member of the Corps.

[jv2k]

That's the thing though. Kyle doesn't get hung up on them. He has pretty much accepted from the beginning being a GL put a target on his back but has continued on anyway despite his losses. That to me is more endearing than "hey, no time for love hot boss and sexy copilot, I'm off to the stars where I'm top dog to handle this intergalactic battle, maybe when I get back I'll decide which one of you to take to dinner and which to take to bed".
Oooh let me try.
I find that I like Hal because despite all that he's gone through, the fact that he'd been ostracized by other members of his corps, the fact that he still feels responsible for what he did, and the fact that he's still able to look ahead and not let it get to him. To me it's more endearing than "Whaaaaa life is hard. I have to pay rent and my old girlfriend forgot my name! I'm gunna go home and bang my sexy green girlfriend now! Getting girls is hard when you are good looking sociable, and built like a tank."


The problem with GL now ...beyond that Secret Origin arc , is the fact Hal really doesn't have much of a character

I've heard this going around a lot around this and it just isn't true. Everything that happened during secret origins(minus the slight retooling of Hal's predecessor) was a retread of of stuff we'd already learned from the rest of Hal's run. His head strong personality, stubbornness, his inability to commit, the fact that he's haunted by his father's death and in some ways idolizes him. It's all ground retread.

[dumbstruck]

i wish... heh. but in all honesty hal puts duty above his own personal life, which when you're in a position such as his, is definitely a good thing. i'd much rather have a confident, experienced guy that can call the shots fighting for the universe than a guy hung up on self-pity for getting his gfs and mother killed.

i agree we haven't seen as much of hal's personal life lately, but i like the action-heavy GL book and think hal's better suited for it. GLC with its ensemble cast allows for greater character interaction and growth, and when things slow down in the main book, i wouldn't mind seeing hal switch over to GLC for a while to see some of that.

As I said before, what makes Hal interesting isn't Hal. It's the situations he's put in and the people he interacts with.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

And I have no problem whatsoever with Kyle having his own series. What annoys me is this either/or approach of some posters who seem to think that Hal Jordan has to die again for Kyle to have his own series. Kyle can have his own series but it doesn't need to be at the expense of Hal Jordan or any other member of the Corps.

I feel the same way ...Hal doesn't have to die at all for Kyle to get his own book. Give the character to Marz again...and let Kyle have his own Earth type GL series. Thats my feelings on it.

[Superbeast]

Oooh let me try.
I find that I like Hal because despite all that he's gone through, the fact that he'd been ostracized by other members of his corps, the fact that he still feels responsible for what he did, and the fact that he's still able to look ahead and not let it get to him. To me it's more endearing than "Whaaaaa life is hard. I have to pay rent and my old girlfriend forgot my name! I'm gunna go home and bang my sexy green girlfriend now! Getting girls is hard when you are good looking sociable, and built like a tank."



I've heard this going around a lot around this and it just isn't true. Everything that happened during secret origins(minus the slight retooling of Hal's predecessor) was a retread of of stuff we'd already learned from the rest of Hal's run. His head strong personality, stubbornness, his inability to commit, the fact that he's haunted by his father's death and in some ways idolizes him. It's all ground retread.

Dude has had Carol Ferris trying to jump his bones for at least a decade and he still can't commit? Like I said, emotionally stunted. I'm surprise Ollie and Barry haven't taken him aside and said "For God's sake Hal, grow up already!" Hell, Wally has settled down and had kids and he's meant to be a generation younger than Hal. To top it off he couldn't even move on to the after life and is back in the same role he was 10 years ago despite everything that has happened. He's even looking younger and his grey bits have vanished like he's signed up for Clairol Just For Men. Next he'll be buying an El Camino and cruising beaches wearing Hawaiian shirts asking girls "What do you think of that boom bap hip hop music? I think it's pretty bad and crunk myself. I enjoy Lil Jon Wayne and 50 Bucks, they are always booming in my system." Hal is basically the poster child for mid life crises at this point. Most of HEAT probably were as well given their long term persistence in returning their childhood hero back to being a good guy again.

Kyle might be emo at times but at least he's not 40 going on 14, he's actually matured in the role and when he did get the Ion power, he didn't go power mad, he actually passed it on when he realised he wasn't really ready and responsible enough for that kind of role. He's got his job, his girl, his drinking buddy, his hobbies... these are things most guys have so I figure it's no surprise Kyle is more relatable to some readers given most comic book fans are young adults trying to find their way in the world and fit in rather 40 year olds who can't decide which girl to go out with. Maybe it's just me but I don't often see women lining up to date 40 year olds that are in the same job they were 20 years ago except for maybe Hollywood actors.

As I said before, what makes Hal interesting isn't Hal. It's the situations he's put in and the people he interacts with.

Thank you!

[jv2k]

Dude has had Carol Ferris trying to jump his bones for at least a decade and he still can't commit? Like I said, emotionally stunted. I'm surprise Ollie and Barry haven't taken him aside and said "For God's sake Hal, grow up already!" Hell, Wally has settled down and had kids and he's meant to be a generation younger than Hal. To top it off he couldn't even move on to the after life and is back in the same role he was 10 years ago despite everything that has happened. He's even looking younger and his grey bits have vanished like he's signed up for Clairol Just For Men. Next he'll be buying an El Camino and cruising beaches wearing Hawaiian shirts asking girls "What do you think of that boom bap hip hop music? I think it's pretty bad and crunk myself. I enjoy Lil Jon Wayne and 50 Bucks, they are always booming in my system." Hal is basically the poster child for mid life crises at this point. Most of HEAT probably were as well given their long term persistence in returning their childhood hero back to being a good guy again.

Kyle might be emo at times but at least he's not 40 going on 14, he's actually matured in the role and when he did get the Ion power, he didn't go power mad, he actually passed it on when he realised he wasn't really ready and responsible enough for that kind of role. He's got his job, his girl, his drinking buddy, his hobbies... these are things most guys have so I figure it's no surprise Kyle is more relatable to some readers given most comic book fans are young adults trying to find their way in the world and fit in rather 40 year olds who can't decide which girl to go out with. Maybe it's just me but I don't often see women lining up to date 40 year olds that are in the same job they were 20 years ago except for maybe Hollywood actors.

Holy crap you are incredibly biased.

[Superbeast]

Holy crap you are incredibly biased.

Probably. That's not to say I haven't given the character a lot more time after Rebirth, which led me to read up on a bunch of old GL stuff which sadly disappointed me on the whole. Althought as I mentioned before, the GA/GL stuff was a lot more interesting to me than Hal's solo stuff.

Hal Jordan is a recently de-aged former mad man, former hand Of God back in the same jobs he was 20 years ago who can't decide between either of thw beautiful women who for whatever reason are attracted to a guy who literally has went places and then came back to square one. While his exploits are interesting, as a character I can't personally identify with that nor do I think it shows any real character progression. All the progress the character did make was blamed on the Parallax entity in order to put Hal back where he used to be. Any depth of character established by his time as Parallax and The Spectre was effectively written off for the most part. I found Hal in Zero Hour and the JSA arc where his Spectre abilities were corrupted much more interesting than some of his more recent appearances. Having checked WoK #4, that he'd even criticise Superman for abiding by his new planet's laws when he is dictated to by blue midgets millions of miles from Earth doesn't even make much sense to me.

Kyle as a character has matured and that character progression has not been undone simply for the sake of doing so. He was built up as the long GL, then the Torchbearer and after he cracked during Sinestro War and gave up the Ion power, he was demoted but it was out of choice because he realised as long as he did feel fear, he was a liability as their MVP and the Corps came first. Now he's in new relationship that unsurprisingly is coloured by his past ones. That the character would seek out a partner in light of his mom's death for some comfort makes sense and again shows that vulnerability that gives the character more depth in my opinion. Admittedly he could have chosen someone that wasn't Sinestro's daughter and saved himself some trouble but compared to Hal blowing off virtually everyone around him lately after the Sinestro Corps War supposedly showed him the importance of having people around him, supporting him and caring for him, it's a more coherent direction for me to follow. I mean, who hasn't dated a girl who had a dad that either 1) didn't like you or 2) gave you a hard time so you could prove you were decent and worthy of his daughter? I can buy into that.

[SMKSPY]

Kyle as a character has matured and that character progression has not been undone simply for the sake of doing so. He was built up as the long GL, then the Torchbearer and after he cracked during Sinestro War and gave up the Ion power, he was demoted but it was out of choice because he realised as long as he did feel fear, he was a liability as their MVP and the Corps came first.

Kyle never gave up the power of Ion during the SCW. It was ripped out of him and then given to Sodam Yat. Kyle had no choice in the matter at all. Any posturing on his part was simply to keep his bruised ego from crumbling.

[Seven_Ride]

Hal Jordan is a recently de-aged former mad man, former hand Of God back in the same jobs he was 20 years ago who can't decide between either of thw beautiful women who for whatever reason are attracted to a guy who literally has went places and then came back to square one. While his exploits are interesting, as a character I can't personally identify with that nor do I think it shows any real character progression. All the progress the character did make was blamed on the Parallax entity in order to put Hal back where he used to be. Any depth of character established by his time as Parallax and The Spectre was effectively written off for the most part. I found Hal in Zero Hour and the JSA arc where his Spectre abilities were corrupted much more interesting than some of his more recent appearances. Having checked WoK #4, that he'd even criticise Superman for abiding by his new planet's laws when he is dictated to by blue midgets millions of miles from Earth doesn't even make much sense to me.
No offense, but it seems to me you don't want to understand Hal Jordan or what made/makes him such a likeable, interesting concept. Don't feel bad, a lot of writers have had the same problem. Not every character is for every reader.

Or perhaps your devotion to Kyle makes it difficult for you to see Hal as anything more than a roadblock to what you want? I think if you want to take an honest shot at what makes Hal a great concept, you should the original stories, Cooke's New Frontier or the better Johns arcs. Seems you've already tried door #3. Maybe try the others. If you can read those books with some attempt at objectivity, you might come away with a better understanding than what I quoted above. Becuase it's off the mark by a wide shot. You might as well call Superman a simple okey farmer who never grew up. It's about as accurate a description as the one above of Hal.

[Hullababy]

No offense, but it seems to me you don't want to understand Hal Jordan or what made/makes him such a likeable, interesting concept. Don't feel bad, a lot of writers have had the same problem. Not every character is for every reader.

Or perhaps your devotion to Kyle makes it difficult for you to see Hal as anything more than a roadblock to what you want? I think if you want to take an honest shot at what makes Hal a great concept, you should the original stories, Cooke's New Frontier or the better Johns arcs. Seems you've already tried door #3. Maybe try the others. If you can read those books with some attempt at objectivity, you might come away with a better understanding than what I quoted above. Becuase it's off the mark by a wide shot. You might as well call Superman a simple okey farmer who never grew up. It's about as accurate a description as the one above of Hal.


Thank you. Couldn't have said it better.

[Alex L]

No offense, but it seems to me you don't want to understand Hal Jordan or what made/makes him such a likeable, interesting concept. Don't feel bad, a lot of writers have had the same problem. Not every character is for every reader.

Or perhaps your devotion to Kyle makes it difficult for you to see Hal as anything more than a roadblock to what you want? I think if you want to take an honest shot at what makes Hal a great concept, you should the original stories, Cooke's New Frontier or the better Johns arcs. Seems you've already tried door #3. Maybe try the others. If you can read those books with some attempt at objectivity, you might come away with a better understanding than what I quoted above. Becuase it's off the mark by a wide shot. You might as well call Superman a simple okey farmer who never grew up. It's about as accurate a description as the one above of Hal.

No offense to you meant (you happened to be the last one who posted something for me to respond to) but as much as people -- in both this thread and others like it -- say others don't 'get' Hal, there's not much explanation in the way of what there is to get.

I get Hal as a role model or as wish-fulfillment similar to how most guys enjoy James Bond, but I still don't see the relatable bit.

[Matt]

He struggles with authority while (often badly) trying to reconcile the parts of his personality and past which lead to mistakes in his life.

He tries to cover his ongoing mental scar that came from the death of his father with his habit of chasing skirts. His problem with authority probably stems from the same tragic incident whether he admits it to himself or not.

He's an innately flawed man (like everyone is in one way or another) but does his best to try to move past it (though not always in the right ways).

I find that quite relatable.

[SMKSPY]

Bigger question is, Why must Hal Jordan be relatable?

Superman isn't relatable today. Batman isn't relatable beyond have no super powers. Wonder Woman isn't relatable. Why do so many single Hal out as the one "vanilla" character that is bad because he isn't relatable.

[Hullababy]

He struggles with authority while (often badly) trying to reconcile the parts of his personality and past which lead to mistakes in his life.

He tries to cover his ongoing mental scar that came from the death of his father with his habit of chasing skirts. His problem with authority probably stems from the same tragic incident whether he admits it to himself or not.

He's an innately flawed man (like everyone is in one way or another) but does his best to try to move past it (though not always in the right ways).

I find that quite relatable.

Totally agreed. I relate to this aspect of his character much more than Kyle's previously angsty personality.

[Matt]

On the other hand, I do not find the character of Kyle Rayner relatable.

He started off as, to put it bluntly, a shmuck - drunk in an alleyway. His run was filled with mistakes that any reasonable person could see coming from a mile off; from relationship screw ups, being fooled by villains, losing his Power Ring in silly ways and a surprising lack of imagination/common sense in Green Lantern 1,000,000, etc etc. Of course, there's the part where he thought the world was being unfair so he had a bit of a childish sulk.

He was almost like a warning sign on how not to set up your life.

I do not find that relatable. I find that annoying.

Though I do have to note that Kyle's character was well written and actually enjoyable in JLA and since Rebirth.

[dupersuper]

Why choose, there's a whole Corps of these guys? I can understand hardcore Kyle fans being miffed at his diminished role now that he's not the torchbearer, but he seems extremely happy to be part of a giant, interstellar peacekeeping organization. If you don't like Hal, Kyle's in GLC; if you're not a fan of either, John's in GL and JLA, and GLC also has Kilowog, Guy, Salaak, Boodika, Brik, Arisa, Sodam Yat...and, well, every one else. Now, if we could only get G'nort back...Giffens Superbuddies stories showed he was still alive...

[TeamED209]

On the other hand, I do not find the character of Kyle Rayner relatable.

He started off as, to put it bluntly, a shmuck - drunk in an alleyway. His run was filled with mistakes that any reasonable person could see coming from a mile off; from relationship screw ups, being fooled by villains, losing his Power Ring in silly ways and a surprising lack of imagination/common sense in Green Lantern 1,000,000, etc etc. Of course, there's the part where he thought the world was being unfair so he had a bit of a childish sulk.

He was almost like a warning sign on how not to set up your life.

I do not find that relatable. I find that annoying.

Though I do have to note that Kyle's character was well written and actually enjoyable in JLA and since Rebirth.

Everything you mentioned above and more is what i enjoy about kyle...

Im not too sure what the point is of trying to make either kyle or hal's character the best because in the end it'll come down to who you enjoyed the most and are loyal to.....personally im not a big hal fan but ill admit that's probably because i basically start GL with kyle and feel he's more suited to what i want to see in a character...

although i have nothing against hal as a character, i just don't enjoy him since rebirth, i prefer him in the older stuff...

[Alex L]

He struggles with authority while (often badly) trying to reconcile the parts of his personality and past which lead to mistakes in his life.

He tries to cover his ongoing mental scar that came from the death of his father with his habit of chasing skirts. His problem with authority probably stems from the same tragic incident whether he admits it to himself or not.

He's an innately flawed man (like everyone is in one way or another) but does his best to try to move past it (though not always in the right ways).

I find that quite relatable.

I see the first part, but not the second.

Regardless, thank you for the answer.

On the other hand, I do not find the character of Kyle Rayner relatable.

He started off as, to put it bluntly, a shmuck - drunk in an alleyway. His run was filled with mistakes that any reasonable person could see coming from a mile off; from relationship screw ups, being fooled by villains, losing his Power Ring in silly ways and a surprising lack of imagination/common sense in Green Lantern 1,000,000, etc etc. Of course, there's the part where he thought the world was being unfair so he had a bit of a childish sulk.

He was almost like a warning sign on how not to set up your life.

I do not find that relatable. I find that annoying.

Though I do have to note that Kyle's character was well written and actually enjoyable in JLA and since Rebirth.

I relate to this in two ways:

Firstly, because we've all had that moment where we do something, and then immediately realize just how boneheaded it was (maybe not as dangerous to the universe as giving a Power Ring to a madman, but still makes you feel like crawling under the bed or something) or secondly, because we've all had that friend where we can see that the relationship is a trainwreck in progress, or otherwise engaged in This Will Not End Well.

[dumbstruck]

Bigger question is, Why must Hal Jordan be relatable?

Superman isn't relatable today. Batman isn't relatable beyond have no super powers. Wonder Woman isn't relatable. Why do so many single Hal out as the one "vanilla" character that is bad because he isn't relatable.

In the case of these three characters, they are relatable for different reasons. Despite his powers, Superman is human, and represents the best in humanity through his ideals. Batman is relatable since he represents a superhero that someone could actually strive to become. And Wonder Woman is another case of people relating to what she stands for; equalization of the sexes and world peace. At the end of the day, what does Hal bring to that kind of table? Not a whole lot. He's still just a guy with a magic ring.

[Den]

In the case of these three characters, they are relatable for different reasons. Despite his powers, Superman is human, and represents the best in humanity through his ideals. Batman is relatable since he represents a superhero that someone could actually strive to become. And Wonder Woman is another case of people relating to what she stands for; equalization of the sexes and world peace. At the end of the day, what does Hal bring to that kind of table? Not a whole lot. He's still just a guy with a magic ring.

Are you kidding?
If you're going to say that we can relate to Superman because he represents the best of humanity, then you could also say that Hal represents the pioneers and daredevils among us. Anyone who ever thought about becoming an Astronaut might want to be a Green Lantern.

If you're going to say Batman is relatable because anyone could strive to become like him (Would help if you were born rich though), then wouldn't Hal as a 'man of action' who does what he thinks is right full speed ahead also have a life style some folks wish they had the courage to try, despite its dangers?

Wonder Woman stands for a lot of good things, but Hal's mission to bring the light of justice into dark times is pretty similar to our universal desire to see Justice done and the good prevail.

The 'wishing ring' is just one part of it.

[Shawn Hopkins]

Green Lanterns go, in my opinion:

1. Guy Gardner
2. John Stewart
3. Hal Jordan
4. G'Nort
5. Killowog
...
56. Boodikka
57. That one that looks sort of like an amoeba, Gpaak
58. Kyle Rayner
59. Jack T. Chance
...

[dumbstruck]

Are you kidding?
If you're going to say that we can relate to Superman because he represents the best of humanity, then you could also say that Hal represents the pioneers and daredevils among us. Anyone who ever thought about becoming an Astronaut might want to be a Green Lantern.

If you're going to say Batman is relatable because anyone could strive to become like him (Would help if you were born rich though), then wouldn't Hal as a 'man of action' who does what he thinks is right full speed ahead also have a life style some folks wish they had the courage to try, despite its dangers?

Wonder Woman stands for a lot of good things, but Hal's mission to bring the light of justice into dark times is pretty similar to our universal desire to see Justice done and the good prevail.

The 'wishing ring' is just one part of it.


If this is how you're interpreting what I'm saying, then you really don't understand the characters at all.

[Den]

If this is how you're interpreting what I'm saying, then you really don't understand the characters at all.

You think all Hal brings to the table is a magic wishing ring, and I'm the one misunderstanding characters?

[Hullababy]

If this is how you're interpreting what I'm saying, then you really don't understand the characters at all.

No sir I'm afraid its quite the opposite.

[dumbstruck]

You think all Hal brings to the table is a magic wishing ring, and I'm the one misunderstanding characters?

Allow me to spell it out.

What Supes, Bats, and WW represent are ideals that are relatable to everyone. Everyone can relate to what they stand for, who they are, and what they represent. Be they man, woman, child, white, black, yellow, green or blue. Again, Superman represents the best of humanity. Batman represents overcoming tragedy through dedication and skill, and being able to fight back against the worst of society with nothing more than your wits. And Wonder Woman represents equality and peace. All things everyone everywhere can aspire to. Kyle too is relatable to a wider population since he is the everyman thrust into his situation.

Hal, to use your argument, is the "man of action" that some folks, including the huge percentage of the population that dreamed of being an astronaut might be able to identify with. The problem is not everyone is a daredevil. Not everyone jumps into every situation without thinking. Not everyone dreamed of being an astronaut. Not everyone's biggest personal problem is deciding which woman to bed. The Trinity represent the best ideals of humanity. What universal ideal does Hal represent? Kyle represents, again, the everyman. He wasn't a guy in an already dangerous job. He wasn't a soldier, or an astronaut, or a police officer. He was a regular guy who was struggling to pay his rent. Again this is something almost universally identifiable. How many people can identify with what it's like to be a military test pilot? Or a guy who is legitimately fearless?

As I've stated before, I'm neither a Hal or a Kyle fan. I've never read any GL series beyond selected crossover's and tie-ins, so this isn't about Hal vs Kyle fanboyism. I have nothing vested in either character. These are my impressions from the stories I have read with Hal and Kyle. Character wise, Hal has nothing to offer. What makes Hal as interesting as he is not Hal. It's who he interacts with and the situations he's placed in.

So again, I ask you, what does Hal bring to the table to compare with those kinds of traits?

[dumbstruck]

No sir I'm afraid its quite the opposite.


Well, since you are a self proclaimed Green Lantern fanboy, I'll ask you the same question. Since you think I'm wrong, but have yet to back up your opinion, tell me what does Hal bring to the table? What universally identifiable traits does Hal possess to make him a more relatable character?

[Den]

So again, I ask you, what does Hal bring to the table to compare with those kinds of traits?

I think we all want to be brave in the face of fear, and we all want to 'boldly go', even if in real life we lack that courage or the means. Perhaps I should have said Hal represents the pioneer /dare devil spirit in each of us. Furthermore, Hal is, in some ways, a knight of a modern day round table, further more, he's THE Knight.. he has an oath, a code, and a cause....and he will go Errant before violating those even on his liege's (or in this case, the Guardian's) orders.

I think that's a very strong, and relatable universal archetype. YMMV, of course.

[dumbstruck]

I think we all want to be brave in the face of fear, and we all want to 'boldly go', even if in real life we lack that courage or the means. Perhaps I should have said Hal represents the pioneer /dare devil spirit in each of us. Furthermore, Hal is, in some ways, a knight of a modern day round table, further more, he's THE Knight.. he has an oath, a code, and a cause....and he will go Errant before violating those even on his liege's (or in this case, the Guardian's) orders.

I think that's a very strong, and relatable universal archetype. YMMV, of course.

I just can't agree with this. Again it's still only relating to a small percentage of people. Maybe it's the cynic in me, but I don't believe everyone has that pioneer spirit. There are far more passive people than adventurous ones. I agree this is part of what motivates Hal, but I don't see it as a universal human principal. And your second point comparing him to a knight is erroneous. It's based on the idea that he's a hero just because. What defines him as such? What makes him be the hero he is? Yes it's a strong archetype. But a mythical one, not a human one, IMO.

People may like to hear the story, but they may not necessarily identify with it. I don't always identify with any of the characters in the books I read, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy reading the story. And that is the problem I see with Hal.

[Den]

I just can't agree with this. Again it's still only relating to a small percentage of people. Maybe it's the cynic in me, but I don't believe everyone has that pioneer spirit. There are far more passive people than adventurous ones. I agree this is part of what motivates Hal, but I don't see it as a universal human principal. And your second point comparing him to a knight is erroneous. It's based on the idea that he's a hero just because. What defines him as such? What makes him be the hero he is? Yes it's a strong archetype. But a mythical one, not a human one, IMO.

People may like to hear the story, but they may not necessarily identify with it. I don't always identify with any of the characters in the books I read, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy reading the story. And that is the problem I see with Hal.
Yeah, we're going to have to agree to disagree. I think the mix of archetypes, Pioneer and Knight, appeals to almost everyone. I think we'd all like to fight for a good cause at least once, and I think that is very much a human drive rather than simply mythic.

Then again, I know some folks who just can't identify with the three you mentioned for various reasons. We all, to some degree, see the clouds differently. I see Hal as a pretty rich character that is doer to Kyle's dreamer . Which is not to say that Hal doesn't have dreams, and Kyle doesn't DO anything...just that they relate better to those roles.

Heck, you might even break the lanterns down that way (albeit simplistically):
Hal Jordan-Doer, the guy who takes action, gets things done, and can not idly sit on the sidelines.
Kyle Rayner- Dreamer, who can imagine a better world
John Stewart- Thinker, or at least that's how I see him written most often lately.
Guy Gardener- .Rebel? Or at least the guy who is who and what he is. Love him, hate him, but cope or leave

I think we can relate to all of these at one time or another.

[dumbstruck]

Kyle Rayner- Dreamer, who can imagine a better world
John Stewart- Thinker, or at least that's how I see him written most often lately.
Guy Gardener- .Rebel? Or at least the guy who is who and what he is. Love him, hate him, but cope or leave

I think we can relate to all of these at one time or another.

Based on your breakdown, I'd actually say Guy is more relatable than Hal. Everyone would like to be ourselves all the time. But we have to act a certain way at work, speak a certain way to different people. etc etc.

[Den]

Based on your breakdown, I'd actually say Guy is more relatable than Hal. Everyone would like to be ourselves all the time. But we have to act a certain way at work, speak a certain way to different people. etc etc.

Well, we can certainly envy him sometimes ;)

[Hullababy]

Well, since you are a self proclaimed Green Lantern fanboy, I'll ask you the same question. Since you think I'm wrong, but have yet to back up your opinion, tell me what does Hal bring to the table? What universally identifiable traits does Hal possess to make him a more relatable character?

You said that people can identify with Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman but not with Hal because he i just someone with a magic ring. But then Batman's just a half crazy guy dressing up as a giant bat at night to scare people. What's so relatable about him ? He doesn't have superpowers ? Maybe that was unique back when he was created but now there are tons of heroes who don't have superpowers. On the contrary Hal has been shown multiple times making wrong decisions but he has learnt to move on. If people can identify with Batman, who is ridiculously obsessed with eliminating crime to the point of insanity more than 30 years after his parents were murdered before his eyes , then something is seriously wrong.

[dumbstruck]

You said that people can identify with Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman but not with Hal because he i just someone with a magic ring. But then Batman's just a half crazy guy dressing up as a giant bat at night to scare people. What's so relatable about him ? He doesn't have superpowers ? Maybe that was unique back when he was created but now there are tons of heroes who don't have superpowers. On the contrary Hal has been shown multiple times making wrong decisions but he has learnt to move on. If people can identify with Batman, who is ridiculously obsessed with eliminating crime to the point of insanity more than 30 years after his parents were murdered before his eyes , then something is seriously wrong.


Clearly you didn't read my follow up post in which I explained why people can identify with what Batman represents. With what Superman and Wonder Woman represent. I have yet to see anything about what Hal represents.

Hal has moved on from his wrong decisions? Really? Wrong decisions like destroying the GLC and becoming a power-mad intergalactic despot? Oh wait. He was possessed by an evil fear monster. That's okay then. No repurcussions. Move along. I know I can identify with that. Why, I was possessed by an evil fear monster just last week. Should have seen the carnage I caused in and around my work. Boy what a mess. But that's okay, cause it wasn't really my fault.

That's not moving on from his mistakes. That's being absolved of any responsibility for his mistakes and receiving a clean slate. I don't know about you, but I don't find that very relatable. Relatable would have been if there was no excuse like a fear monster, and Hal Jordan had to seek redemption for his past sins, rather than have them erased.

[Shade]

Clearly you didn't read my follow up post in which I explained why people can identify with what Batman represents. With what Superman and Wonder Woman represent. I have yet to see anything about what Hal represents.

Hal has moved on from his wrong decisions? Really? Wrong decisions like destroying the GLC and becoming a power-mad intergalactic despot? Oh wait. He was possessed by an evil fear monster. That's okay then. No repurcussions. Move along. I know I can identify with that. Why, I was possessed by an evil fear monster just last week. Should have seen the carnage I caused in and around my work. Boy what a mess. But that's okay, cause it wasn't really my fault.

That's not moving on from his mistakes. That's being absolved of any responsibility for his mistakes and receiving a clean slate. I don't know about you, but I don't find that very relatable. Relatable would have been if there was no excuse like a fear monster, and Hal Jordan had to seek redemption for his past sins, rather than have them erased.

Hal served as host for the Spectre for a while, which was very much part of his moving on and having to make up for what happened. He is back now trying to be the hero he was before and even better. He wasn't "absolved" of anything. Even if you think the "fear monster" was a cheap out (and I think it was), what he went through to get back to where he is was in no way a free pass.

[Rev. Calibos]

Clearly you didn't read my follow up post in which I explained why people can identify with what Batman represents. With what Superman and Wonder Woman represent. I have yet to see anything about what Hal represents.

Hal has moved on from his wrong decisions? Really? Wrong decisions like destroying the GLC and becoming a power-mad intergalactic despot? Oh wait. He was possessed by an evil fear monster. That's okay then. No repurcussions. Move along. I know I can identify with that. Why, I was possessed by an evil fear monster just last week. Should have seen the carnage I caused in and around my work. Boy what a mess. But that's okay, cause it wasn't really my fault.

That's not moving on from his mistakes. That's being absolved of any responsibility for his mistakes and receiving a clean slate. I don't know about you, but I don't find that very relatable. Relatable would have been if there was no excuse like a fear monster, and Hal Jordan had to seek redemption for his past sins, rather than have them erased.


Being controlled like that is par for the course for superheroes though.

That's the reality of being a costumed hero in the world that they inhabit.

They're all threatened with mind control by science or sorcery, they're all susceptible to doppelgangers and shapeshifters who assume their form, etc.

To hold Hal in contempt for what he did while under the influence of Parallax sets an interesting precedent because who's next?

In fact, I happened to pick up some DC Annuals today that ties into this.

During the Eclipso crossover dozens and dozens of DC's heroe's were possessed (eclipsed) by Eclipso and wreaked havoc in the DC Universe.

Nobody was safe from the black diamonds as anyone who knew anger while holding them came under his control.

Should all of them be held accountable for the actions of Eclipso while they were being controlled?

[Den]

That's the reality though of costumed heroes in the world that they inhabit.

They're all threatened with mind control by science or sorcery, they're all susceptible to doppelgangers and shapeshifters who assume their form, etc.

To hold Hal in contempt for what he did while under the influence of Parallax sets an interesting precedent because who's next?

In fact, I happened to pick up some DC Annuals today that ties into this.

During the Eclipso crossover dozens and dozens of DC's heroe's were possessed (eclipsed) by Eclipso and wreaked havoc in the DC Universe.

Nobody was safe from the black diamonds as anyone who knew anger while holding them came under his control.

Should all of them be held accountable for the actions of Eclipso while they were being controlled?

I think I see your point, it would like blaming the victim.

And, of course, while it didn't last long enough for some folks, Hal DID deal with consequences for a time. Distrust from fellow heroes and Lanterns alike did occur through the issues. He had to earn their respect again, and frankly, imo, it shouldn't have taken THAT long for him to do so...otherwise it makes the heroes look like they were doing the equivalent of accusing a rape victim of "asking for it"

[Rev. Calibos]

I think I see your point, it would like blaming the victim.

And, of course, while it didn't last long enough for some folks, Hal DID deal with consequences for a time. Distrust from fellow heroes and Lanterns alike did occur through the issues. He had to earn their respect again, and frankly, imo, it shouldn't have taken THAT long for him to do so...otherwise it makes the heroes look like they were doing the equivalent of accusing a rape victim of "asking for it"


Well, as others have mentioned, he 'sacrificed' himself to re-start the sun, he did a world of good as the Spectre and he's been doing a world of good back in uniform as a Green Lantern.

Until Rebirth Hal took a bunch of BS from the other heroes, especially Batman, but he earned his way back into their good graces.

But once Rebirth hit the stands we found that Hal wasn't responsible at all for his actions, it was all Parallax.

And it wasn't as if Rebirth just wiped away everything all willy nilly, it was an incredibly creative 'fix' that made sense and catapulted Hal back into the forefront of the DC Universe.

I mean, in my book Hal snapping and killing the Corps was akin to the Clone Saga. It was just a horiffic, knee jerk reaction to create an 'event' to net sales.

Like the Clone Saga some good came out of it (Ben Reilly/Kyle Rayner) but the stories will ulitmately be remembered for the thinly veiled attempt to spike flagging sales with an 'event'.

It took Rebirth to finally lay Emerald Twilight to rest finally. It's one of my favorite mini series and it's what brought me back to DC after being away for some time.

[Den]

Yep.

Frankly, I've got nothing against Kyle, but the "way" DC editorial tried to get rid of Hal cheesed me off.

[dumbstruck]

Well, as others have mentioned, he 'sacrificed' himself to re-start the sun, he did a world of good as the Spectre and he's been doing a world of good back in uniform as a Green Lantern.

Until Rebirth Hal took a bunch of BS from the other heroes, especially Batman, but he earned his way back into their good graces.

But once Rebirth hit the stands we found that Hal wasn't responsible at all for his actions, it was all Parallax.

And it wasn't as if Rebirth just wiped away everything all willy nilly, it was an incredibly creative 'fix' that made sense and catapulted Hal back into the forefront of the DC Universe.

I mean, in my book Hal snapping and killing the Corps was akin to the Clone Saga. It was just a horiffic, knee jerk reaction to create an 'event' to net sales.

Like the Clone Saga some good came out of it (Ben Reilly/Kyle Rayner) but the stories will ulitmately be remembered for the thinly veiled attempt to spike flagging sales with an 'event'.

It took Rebirth to finally lay Emerald Twilight to rest finally. It's one of my favorite mini series and it's what brought me back to DC after being away for some time.


Yes, possession is part and parcel of super-hero comics. The difference is Eclipso was an event designed around that. Nor did the possessed heroes commit mass murder in an attempt to change history. Emerald Twilight was not designed with the possession endgame in mind. Hal did go insane with grief, and committed not only mass murder, but the mass murder of almost everyone of his friends in the GLC. Rebirth was a clever retcon to return Hal to his squeaky clean hero image without really having to spend a lot of time around him trying to redeem himself. It was literally a deus ex machina (god in the machine) plot device.

A similar example. Circa 1986, during the Legends crossover, Superman was brainwashed by Darkseid and massacred thousands of his lowlies. 1987, Adventures of Superman Annual 1. Again, Superman's mind is controlled. This time by a town of people who's brains were removed from their bodies. Unable to live in such a state, they used their combined minds to control Superman's body to shut off the device that kept them alive. These events were mentioned as much as two years later as part of the reason Superman developed a split personality in which his grief over these events caused him to assume the identity of Gangbuster. While not his fault, Supes still felt responsibility for these events, and sought redemption for them. This is possession properly dealt with in comics.

If Hal was going to be brought back, they could've had a perfect scenario to make Hal more relatable. His search for redemption not only internally, but in the GLC, and amongst the heroes of Earth. This could have been an ongoing plot thread for several years. Instead it was reduced to a handful of scenes and mentions in dialogue. Instead they opted for a solution that returned him basically to his previous status quo as quickly as they possibly could.

[Seven_Ride]

Hal is more like Superman, an idealized superhero born to be what he is. Same as Indiana Jones or Han Solo. Kyle is intended to be a Tho I don't find Kyle "more" relatable than Hal. In fact less so, since he's such an obvious Gen-X cliche, sipping cappucino in a hip Greenwich Village coffee house, whining about how tough it is committing to his girlfriend, a green-skinned model/superhero. Or dealing with his ex-girlfriend, who was shaped from clay.

It's all fantasy. Just ones that appeal to different sensibilities.

The most interesting thing about this thread is that Kyle is, once again, a means to talking about Hal...not Kyle. Hard to know who's more obsessed with him, Hal fans or Hal detractors. 10 years ago the race would go to his backers, but now...

[dumbstruck]

The most interesting thing about this thread is that Kyle is, once again, a means to talking about Hal...not Kyle. Hard to know who's more obsessed with him, Hal fans or Hal detractors. 10 years ago the race would go to his backers, but now...

As I've stated before, I'm not really a fan of either. I'm not a regular GL reader, though I have read different issues of Hal pre-Kyle, Kyle, and Hal post-Kyle. Hal just isn't a relatable character. I've enjoyed the Hal issues. I have nothing against Hal. I've enjoyed the Kyle issues. I have nothing against Kyle. I actually was referring to not only Kyle, but Superman, Wonder Woman and Batman as well. And Guy Gardner, too.

What I find most interesting is much of the Hal supporters are basically saying Hal is a hero just because, and that's enough for people to relate to him. What I'm arguing is it isn't enough. There has to be more to it if you're going to identify with the character you're reading about. I wonder how much of it is nothing more than fanboy support for one's favourite character rather than a thoughtful opinion of what does or does not make the him relatable. I realize relatability is somewhat subjective. Yet Supes, Bats and WW represent ideals that are identifiable to everyone. Hal, not so much.

[Seven_Ride]

If Hal was going to be brought back, they could've had a perfect scenario to make Hal more relatable. His search for redemption not only internally, but in the GLC, and amongst the heroes of Earth. This could have been an ongoing plot thread for several years. Instead it was reduced to a handful of scenes and mentions in dialogue.
That's not true. There was a whole period of that. I like to call it 1994-2004, myself.

You perceive a relatability "problem", and that's a shame. But you can seperate out that this is your opinion, as opposed to some universal truth, right? They could change Hal up to suit the most devout Kyle fans, and maintain him as they did in the 90s, a foil.

Or: portray him in the most well-known, marketable fashion. Time and again it's been shown to work very well, and have wide appeal.

[dumbstruck]

That's not true. There was a whole period of that. I like to call it 1994-2004, myself.

You perceive a relatability "problem", and that's a shame. But you can seperate out that this is your opinion, as opposed to some universal truth, right? They could change Hal up to suit the most devout Kyle fans, and maintain him as they did in the 90s, a foil.

Or: portray him in the most well-known, marketable fashion. Time and again it's been shown to work very well, and have wide appeal.

Hal's "redemption" really only began with Final Night, published in 1996. Which IIRC, Hal's reignition of the sun was more in line with his desire to remake the world. If the sun went out, he wouldn't be able to do that. In Day of Judgment (1999), he assumed the role of Spectre. I'll grant you this went a ways towards his personal redemption, yet I don't recall it really dealing with his redemption in the eyes of the GLC or other Earth based heroes. This is what was glossed over in the current series with only a handful of mentions.

Neither am I saying they need to "Kyle-up" Hal. That would be ridiculous. Neither did I say his lack of relatability is a problem. I already said I've enjoyed Hal's stories in the past and present. All I've said is his lack of relatability in relation to the trinity or many other characters, means only that he's not a relatable character. Just because I don't find him relatable, doesn't mean I don't enjoy reading his stories.

[Rev. Calibos]

Yes, possession is part and parcel of super-hero comics. The difference is Eclipso was an event designed around that. Nor did the possessed heroes commit mass murder in an attempt to change history. Emerald Twilight was not designed with the possession endgame in mind. Hal did go insane with grief, and committed not only mass murder, but the mass murder of almost everyone of his friends in the GLC. Rebirth was a clever retcon to return Hal to his squeaky clean hero image without really having to spend a lot of time around him trying to redeem himself. It was literally a deus ex machina (god in the machine) plot device.

A good point, but there's something here to consider....

Comic books are awesome. Part of what makes them so awesome, imho at least, is the organic, flowing storytelling that we treat ourselves to month in and month out.

Things that happened twenty years ago still resonate and are still important today.

Green Lantern has been around long before we were born and, hopefully, they'll still be creating stories long after we're gone.

One of the few good things that came out of the Hypertime concept was this line from Mark Waid which sums it all up: 'It's all true.'

It all happened, everything. Every story, every adventure, it all happened and it all matters.

Stuff that happened during Emerald Twilight happened and stuff that happened during Rebirth happened.

Ron Marz told a story about Hal Jordan that gave new insight to his character and changed things forever, Geoff Johns turned around a decade later and did the same.


Which leads us to that powerful comic book line 'It turns out that......'

What you and others call a ret-con I call 'it turns out that...'

Everything in comic books change on a daily basis because of 'it turns out that...'

It turns out that Spiderman's parents were spies.

It turns out that Mary Jane already KNEW that Peter was Spider-man.

It turns out that Diana's mother was the first Wonder Woman.

These things are indeed changes but they add on to and accentuate a never ending story.

A necessary evil in the particular type of storytelling that we enjoy on a monthly basis.



A similar example. Circa 1986, during the Legends crossover, Superman was brainwashed by Darkseid and massacred thousands of his lowlies. 1987, Adventures of Superman Annual 1. Again, Superman's mind is controlled. This time by a town of people who's brains were removed from their bodies. Unable to live in such a state, they used their combined minds to control Superman's body to shut off the device that kept them alive. These events were mentioned as much as two years later as part of the reason Superman developed a split personality in which his grief over these events caused him to assume the identity of Gangbuster. While not his fault, Supes still felt responsibility for these events, and sought redemption for them. This is possession properly dealt with in comics.

If Hal was going to be brought back, they could've had a perfect scenario to make Hal more relatable. His search for redemption not only internally, but in the GLC, and amongst the heroes of Earth. This could have been an ongoing plot thread for several years. Instead it was reduced to a handful of scenes and mentions in dialogue. Instead they opted for a solution that returned him basically to his previous status quo as quickly as they possibly could.

Some good points, but you have to keep in mind a couple of things.

1) As Parallax Hal was something along the lines of a cosmic entity. I mean, Superman hurt a lot of people during Legends and that guilt drove him to that breakdown but throughout it all he had to deal with it as the all too 'human' Clark Kent.

Hal tried to re-start time and re-build reality. He had the power to re-create the Universe to his own liking. When you're elevated to that level who can tell what you retain when you're brought back down to Earth?

Would you feel great remorse over hitting an animal enroute to work? I'd feel pretty bad about it but hey, it happens to all of us. If you're like me you'd feel terrible but you'd be over it in a day or so.

Now imagine someone like Parallax, a being so powerful that he can manipulate time to his own ends. Throughout Zero Hour what was his mantra?

'I'm going to fix it, I'm going to fix things, make them right......'

So, as Parallax, the ends justified the means. If he had to destroy to 'fix' things that was perfectly acceptable and at that point he was so powerful that that human perspective was long gone.

2) He was the Spectre. Now he's moved from Cosmic Rabble Rouser to Agent of God status.

Who knows what he suffered through as he was 'punished' by being the Spirit?

Now I'm not sure of how he became the Spectre or the circumstances of his 'service' to God but from I can tell of others who have filled the role it certainly isn't pleasant.


And again, this is all happening while he's being posessed by Parallax.

[dumbstruck]

A good point, but there's something here to consider....

Comic books are awesome. Part of what makes them so awesome, imho at least, is the organic, flowing storytelling that we treat ourselves to month in and month out.

Things that happened twenty years ago still resonate and are still important today.

Green Lantern has been around long before we were born and, hopefully, they'll still be creating stories long after we're gone.

One of the few good things that came out of the Hypertime concept was this line from Mark Waid which sums it all up: 'It's all true.'

It all happened, everything. Every story, every adventure, it all happened and it all matters.

Stuff that happened during Emerald Twilight happened and stuff that happened during Rebirth happened.

Ron Marz told a story about Hal Jordan that gave new insight to his character and changed things forever, Geoff Johns turned around a decade later and did the same.


Which leads us to that powerful comic book line 'It turns out that......'

What you and others call a ret-con I call 'it turns out that...'

Everything in comic books change on a daily basis because of 'it turns out that...'

It turns out that Spiderman's parents were spies.

It turns out that Mary Jane already KNEW that Peter was Spider-man.

It turns out that Diana's mother was the first Wonder Woman.

These things are indeed changes but they add on to and accentuate a never ending story.

A necessary evil in the particular type of storytelling that we enjoy on a monthly basis.




Some good points, but you have to keep in mind a couple of things.

1) As Parallax Hal was something along the lines of a cosmic entity. I mean, Superman hurt a lot of people during Legends and that guilt drove him to that breakdown but throughout it all he had to deal with it as the all too 'human' Clark Kent.

Hal tried to re-start time and re-build reality. He had the power to re-create the Universe to his own liking. When you're elevated to that level who can tell what you retain when you're brought back down to Earth?

Would you feel great remorse over hitting an animal enroute to work? I'd feel pretty bad about it but hey, it happens to all of us. If you're like me you'd feel terrible but you'd be over it in a day or so.

Now imagine someone like Parallax, a being so powerful that he can manipulate time to his own ends. Throughout Zero Hour what was his mantra?

'I'm going to fix it, I'm going to fix things, make them right......'

So, as Parallax, the ends justified the means. If he had to destroy to 'fix' things that was perfectly acceptable and at that point he was so powerful that that human perspective was long gone.

2) He was the Spectre. Now he's moved from Cosmic Rabble Rouser to Agent of God status.

Who knows what he suffered through as he was 'punished' by being the Spirit?

Now I'm not sure of how he became the Spectre or the circumstances of his 'service' to God but from I can tell of others who have filled the role it certainly isn't pleasant.


And again, this is all happening while he's being posessed by Parallax.

Yet Hal is fully aware of the things he's done. What you're suggesting seems to be that Hal can basically say to himself "Well, I was more than human at the time, so it doesn't matter." I don't see a distinction between what Hal should be going through and what Superman did go through.

Where I will make a distinction is with this. "It turns out that..." is a retcon that makes sense. It doesn't necessarily contradict anything, but at the same time continues the flow of the character with minimal disruption. A retcon is a complete reworking of established history used to erase or change a previous status quo.

All that stuff happened to Hal, but at the time there was no Parallax entity. It was just crazy old Hal seeking to atone for his sins. By retconning his sins to be the result of a possessive entity, Hal is immediately absolved of his sins and he's returned to the same character he was before he went crazy. It's deus ex machina storytelling at its worst, plain, simple, and literal. There are retcons that work, and retcons that don't. For me, the Parallax retcon didn't. I would have been much more interested in Hal actually being responsible for what he did, and needing to redeem himself in the eyes of the other heroes and the reborn GLC. In this case, possession was a cop-out.

[Seven_Ride]

Hal's "redemption" really only began with Final Night, published in 1996. Which IIRC, Hal's reignition of the sun was more in line with his desire to remake the world. If the sun went out, he wouldn't be able to do that. In Day of Judgment (1999), he assumed the role of Spectre. I'll grant you this went a ways towards his personal redemption, yet I don't recall it really dealing with his redemption in the eyes of the GLC or other Earth based heroes. This is what was glossed over in the current series with only a handful of mentions.
But frankly, that's the point. Yeah those stories still happened, but they do not supercede ALL of the character's history. Nor should they. The GL that sold comics in prior decades wasn't a tragic anti-hero. It worked 10 years ago when he was, well, wrong. A Sinestro-esque foil to Kyle, who was by contrast the 100% righteous hero, conquering the mis-guided villain. Simple.

Rebirth did reset events, of course. But this was to make Hal a viable heroic model, rather than yet another anti-hero. Which has more lasting appeal? Maybe to some of the readers that got into DC in the 90s, the former is preferable. But long term, what made GL a successful character way back when are the same ingredients which have made it such a hot commodity these past few years. New readers getting into GL in recent years have zero attachment to the old stuff, but they obviously like what they're reading; GL is selling better now than it has in almost 20 years.

Which doesn't mean GL couldn't use more Earthbound, character-driven stories. I think that's been lost between epic battles, myself.

[Rev. Calibos]

Yet Hal is fully aware of the things he's done. What you're suggesting seems to be that Hal can basically say to himself "Well, I was more than human at the time, so it doesn't matter." I don't see a distinction between what Hal should be going through and what Superman did go through.

In all honesty there's a huge difference because when Superman did what he did he was still 'Superman' more or less. His own powers, his own body.

Hal was in another ballpark altogether, that's why I brought up the roadkill scenario.

I can't imagine human beings being any more than insects (if that) to somebody who can control time like that, somebody who can, essentially, reboot the time stream.


Where I will make a distinction is with this. "It turns out that..." is a retcon that makes sense. It doesn't necessarily contradict anything, but at the same time continues the flow of the character with minimal disruption. A retcon is a complete reworking of established history used to erase or change a previous status quo.

All that stuff happened to Hal, but at the time there was no Parallax entity. It was just crazy old Hal seeking to atone for his sins. By retconning his sins to be the result of a possessive entity, Hal is immediately absolved of his sins and he's returned to the same character he was before he went crazy. It's deus ex machina storytelling at its worst, plain, simple, and literal. There are retcons that work, and retcons that don't. For me, the Parallax retcon didn't. I would have been much more interested in Hal actually being responsible for what he did, and needing to redeem himself in the eyes of the other heroes and the reborn GLC. In this case, possession was a cop-out.

Yet he has redeemed himself though. Reigniting the sun, his time as the Spectre, saving Ollie, he'd done a lot to atone for what he had done long before it was determined that he was being controlled.

And all the while, because it was a 'it turns out that....' everybody in the DCU (and we readers) were under the impression that it WAS him, that he had complete control over his actions.

In fact, if I remember DC's offerings back then it seemed as if every single Hal story (post Final Night) dealt with the heroes 1) talking about Hal snapping and going crazy and then 2) How he had sacrificed himself and died a hero restarting the sun.

Batman held a grudge for a long, long time but, again, if I recall correctly the ending of Final Night was the first step on his road to redemption and the first time that the DC heroes were able to begin to forgive him for what he had done.

[dumbstruck]

But frankly, that's the point. Yeah those stories still happened, but they do not supercede ALL of the character's history. Nor should they. The GL that sold comics in prior decades wasn't a tragic anti-hero. It worked 10 years ago when he was, well, wrong. A Sinestro-esque foil to Kyle, who was by contrast the 100% righteous hero, conquering the mis-guided villain. Simple.

Rebirth did reset events, of course. But this was to make Hal a viable heroic model, rather than yet another anti-hero. Which has more lasting appeal? Maybe to some of the readers that got into DC in the 90s, the former is preferable. But long term, what made GL a successful character way back when are the same ingredients which have made it such a hot commodity these past few years. New readers getting into GL in recent years have zero attachment to the old stuff, but they obviously like what they're reading; GL is selling better now than it has in almost 20 years.

Which doesn't mean GL couldn't use more Earthbound, character-driven stories. I think that's been lost between epic battles, myself.


Who said anything about him being an anti-hero? Not me. Hal doesn't need to be the reluctant hero. Or the outcast, misfit hero. Or the villain with a penchant for doing heroic things. Or the dark hero who does questionable things in his pursuit of justice. He can still be the hero he always was. I'm just saying the characterization opportunities a redemption seeking Hal Jordan could have presented were dropped in favor of the expediant of making him exactly as he was before.

Rebirth still could have made him a viable hero. He still could have been the guy who jumps in to every situation because he wants to do the right thing. This would have just given an extra reason for his actions. He would have been the hero with some personal baggage that he needs to work through. He'd be a hero, yet a flawed hero. It's called characterization. And in this case, it's characterization that would have naturally flowed from the preceding events. Instead, DC opted to excise those bits in favor of Didio's now classic "iconic version" of the character. The iconic version of Hal is flawless, and Johns' yellow fear monster possession cop-out gave us that version back without the extra "burden" of having to write a character who isn't perfect.

[dumbstruck]

In all honesty there's a huge difference because when Superman did what he did he was still 'Superman' more or less. His own powers, his own body.

Hal was in another ballpark altogether, that's why I brought up the roadkill scenario.

I can't imagine human beings being any more than insects (if that) to somebody who can control time like that, somebody who can, essentially, reboot the time stream.



Yet he has redeemed himself though. Reigniting the sun, his time as the Spectre, saving Ollie, he'd done a lot to atone for what he had done long before it was determined that he was being controlled.

And all the while, because it was a 'it turns out that....' everybody in the DCU (and we readers) were under the impression that it WAS him, that he had complete control over his actions.

In fact, if I remember DC's offerings back then it seemed as if every single Hal story (post Final Night) dealt with the heroes 1) talking about Hal snapping and going crazy and then 2) How he had sacrificed himself and died a hero restarting the sun.

Batman held a grudge for a long, long time but, again, if I recall correctly the ending of Final Night was the first step on his road to redemption and the first time that the DC heroes were able to begin to forgive him for what he had done.


Regardless of what type of being Hal was, Hal was still Hal. He knows what he did. The excuse that he was a cosmic being is just that. It's an excuse to absolve Hal of guilt and responsibility. It's no better than Johns' absolution expediant; the yellow fear bug.

Again, my memory is a little hazy as it's been so long, but I believe Hal's reignition of the sun was not done for altruistic reasons. He did it because he still wanted to remake the world in his own image. Everyone let him do it because they had no other choice. Yes he died saving the world; a hero's death if you will, and that's how many chose to remember him, but his guilt is what kept him in purgatory until Day of Judgment. He couldn't forgive himself for what he'd done.

Anyways, we've deviated from the original point, which is that Hal, while a heroic character with adventures that are fun to read, is not by nature a relatable character.

[Superbeast]

All that stuff happened to Hal, but at the time there was no Parallax entity. It was just crazy old Hal seeking to atone for his sins. By retconning his sins to be the result of a possessive entity, Hal is immediately absolved of his sins and he's returned to the same character he was before he went crazy. It's deus ex machina storytelling at its worst, plain, simple, and literal. There are retcons that work, and retcons that don't. For me, the Parallax retcon didn't. I would have been much more interested in Hal actually being responsible for what he did, and needing to redeem himself in the eyes of the other heroes and the reborn GLC. In this case, possession was a cop-out.

I agree with this completely. I found Hal more interesting for having went crazy than I do now. It showed what lengths one man will go to in order to do what he thinks is right and then the lengths he will go to in order to do right and absolve his sins. Blaming it on Parallax to me took away the depth the character had developed. After all his good deeds all he wanted was to be rewarded with the restoration of his city after it was wiped out by Mongul but his all powerful cosmic bosses told him "that's not what we do, don't complain, just do your job" and he in turn realised he wasn't "the greatest Green Lantern" to them, he was another lackey and got treated as such. I thought it really showed Hal in a very interesting light for that period of time.

[Karl O'Neill]

I like the RETCON.

Heroes shouldn't go bad.

[Superbeast]

I like the RETCON.

Heroes shouldn't go bad.
Humans aren't perfect, we can only strive to be. Hal did that until he realised his efforts didn't matter to the people who gave him his power so he then decided to take their power to do what they refused to. It's quite common for folks to feel underappreciated or resentful of their bosses who'll expect results even if their employess efforts aren't appreciated or rewarded. I thought it worked very well at showing Hal in the same way as say, Michael Douglas in Falling Down, a good man pushed past his breaking point by the situation he ended up in. I certainly find that easier to identify with than "A man who became a fighter pilot even after watching his father die in a horrific accident (which you'd think would make him fearful of planes, but not this boy because he doesn't fear anything!) grows up to be a womanising moron until he gets a ring from an alien and becomes a spacecop who still remains a womaniser, but rather than being a moron is a gung ho adventurer and test pilot that won't settle down even though all of his friends have and he probably looks odd trying to pick up girls at nightclubs at this point."

You might as well call Superman a simple okey farmer who never grew up. It's about as accurate a description as the one above of Hal..

Superman has a wife, a job and an adopted son as well as a younger cousin to keep an eye on who appreciates his family all the more now his father has passed away. he is also now working to reestablish his original planet's culture and embracing the El legacy. Nice try. Unfortunately he's not still running around hiding his secret, who to decide between Lois and Lana and running back to his folks for reassurance so I don't think the attempted comparison stands. Superman as a character has evolved, Hal Jordan has went backwards.

[Karl O'Neill]

Also the RETCON birthed the emotional spectrum.

Thus. Years of potential fresh stories.

I agree though that humans are not perfect.

[Rev. Calibos]

Regardless of what type of being Hal was, Hal was still Hal. He knows what he did. The excuse that he was a cosmic being is just that. It's an excuse to absolve Hal of guilt and responsibility. It's no better than Johns' absolution expediant; the yellow fear bug.

Before he became aware of his possession, yes, it was 'Hal being Hal' as he was utterly unaware of being controlled by Parallax.

So Hal, carrying the burden of that guilt, sacrificed his life to re-ignite the sun at the end of Final Night.



Again, my memory is a little hazy as it's been so long, but I believe Hal's reignition of the sun was not done for altruistic reasons. He did it because he still wanted to remake the world in his own image. Everyone let him do it because they had no other choice. Yes he died saving the world; a hero's death if you will, and that's how many chose to remember him, but his guilt is what kept him in purgatory until Day of Judgment. He couldn't forgive himself for what he'd done.

I got it when it came out and, to be honest, it's been awhile since I've picked it up and read it.

My memory is hazy as well but I believe he did it to do just that, altruistic reasons.

There were a number of DC heroes who grumbled of course, wondering what he was up to but what it boiled down to was Hal, in a small way, trying to make up for what he did.

It was at this time that Hal resurrected Olvier Queen as well, this leads me to believe that his 'sacrifice' during Final Night was a selfless act.



Anyways, we've deviated from the original point, which is that Hal, while a heroic character with adventures that are fun to read, is not by nature a relatable character.

Well, he's not really supposed to be.

Hal Jordan is that prick at the end of the bar who can get his ass whipped at darts yet still walks out of there with the best looking girl in the joint on his arm.

He's the Leaguer who drives everybody nuts with his ridiculous swagger and cockiness, they hate it when he acts like that because 1) it's obnoxious and 2) he usually pulls off whatever b.s. stunt he's trying to pull.

Hal Jordan is the Ferris Bueller of the DCU. He's not relatable at all because if anyone else tries to pull off that act they'd look ridiculous but somehow, for Jordan, it just works.

He makes it work by sheer willpower alone, that's what makes his character a compelling one.

[Karl O'Neill]

I believe that the RETCON was not only cool, but ESSENTIAL and MANDATORY.

Anybody who thinks Hal should face the facts of killing so many lanterns is insane themselves.

It would be preposterous to try write something like this. It would be an insult to the character and fans and legacy.

Lets face it. Hal was possessed. I view it like when spiderman is possessed by venom or canage.

Writers can avail of many plot devices.

[Superbeast]

Superman isn't relatable today. Batman isn't relatable beyond have no super powers. Wonder Woman isn't relatable. Why do so many single Hal out as the one "vanilla" character that is bad because he isn't relatable.

Young boy with adopted parents tries to figure out who he is and find out more about his parents. Upon realising both sets of parents love him and want the best for him, he goes from the small town to the big city in search of success and to establish who he is as an independent young man rather than just as his parents son.

Boy suffers tragedy at a young age and devotes his money and time to protecting others from suffering the same fate, even if that means being hands on in dealing with these negative elements.

Naive young woman comes to America and tries to fit into a man's world where power isn't all about how strong you are, but how you act and handle real life situations with practicality and dignity knowing it's a man's world.

Wow, how completely hard to identify with. I'm sure no immigrants, charity founders or feminists could look to these characters to identify with.

I think if you want to take an honest shot at what makes Hal a great concept, you should the original stories, Cooke's New Frontier or the better Johns arcs. Seems you've already tried door #3. Maybe try the others. If you can read those books with some attempt at objectivity, you might come away with a better understanding than what I quoted above.
I have the complete run of GL vol 2 from 1960 to 1989. I have watched New Frontier. However Hal in New Frontier is quite different from Hal today. If you don't think so, fair enough, but he's a lot simpler and more sympathetic in New Frontier to me.

[TeamED209]

Kyle as Ion didn't wield his power with confidence otherwise he wouldn't have need Hal to save his bacon against Nero. Kyle has always been the guy with the power, potential and the imagination but not always the confidence. That's why Sinestro managed to break him by telling him about his mother's murder by Despotellis. Kyle is the guy that tries his best even if he doesn't always succeed. He's a lot more human in that respect and the fact he does still feel fear but deals with it is more relatable than being completely fearless.

Hal will succeed no matter what because that's what Hal does. Even death and God couldn't stop him from being a Green Lantern when the dust cleared. While he embodies the ideology of the GL Corps the depths of his character since his return to humanity really should be plumbed for maximum effect.

I accept he's the GL MVP after Sodam Yat but why is he still considered that in light of his past actions and why would every other Corps want him, particularly the Blue Lanterns since he doesn't actually seem to want to work with them or have the right attitude to get the ring to work correctly? It doesn't make sense other than to try bolster his rep as GL MVP.

That may be the thing that bugs me about hal the most, he's the best gl and ect ect and the reason for all that seems to boil down to im hal jordan and geoff jones loves me....

[Superbeast]

That may be the thing that bugs me about hal the most, he's the best gl and ect ect and the reason for all that seems to boil down to im hal jordan and geoff jones loves me....

Thank you! I'm not saying Hal can't be a good character, as I said I preferred the changes made to him before the retcon because they made him a more relatable character to me. A man who loses stability in his life and resorts to crazy behaviour to "cope" isn't anything unheard of. Someone who did wrong when they thought they were doing right who then had to earn their redemption under God... sounds like virtually every born again Christian going. I can get with that.

"He's a hero because he was born to be a hero" is great but what motivates him now compared to then? If he's back working for the same people that gave him a breakdown, why is he doing it and why has his opinion changed? I want to care and relate to the character, I just want to know why I should and can at this point.

[TeamED209]

Being controlled like that is par for the course for superheroes though.

That's the reality of being a costumed hero in the world that they inhabit.

They're all threatened with mind control by science or sorcery, they're all susceptible to doppelgangers and shapeshifters who assume their form, etc.

To hold Hal in contempt for what he did while under the influence of Parallax sets an interesting precedent because who's next?

In fact, I happened to pick up some DC Annuals today that ties into this.

During the Eclipso crossover dozens and dozens of DC's heroe's were possessed (eclipsed) by Eclipso and wreaked havoc in the DC Universe.

Nobody was safe from the black diamonds as anyone who knew anger while holding them came under his control.

Should all of them be held accountable for the actions of Eclipso while they were being controlled?

I thought that hal was more influenced while in a weakend emotional state rather than completely controlled by parralax ...

[TeamED209]

Thank you! I'm not saying Hal can't be a good character, as I said I preferred the changes made to him before the retcon because they made him a more relatable character to me. A man who loses stability in his life and resorts to crazy behaviour to "cope" isn't anything unheard of. Someone who did wrong when they thought they were doing right who then had to earn their redemption under God... sounds like virtually every born again Christian going. I can get with that.

"He's a hero because he was born to be a hero" is great but what motivates him now compared to then? If he's back working for the same people that gave him a breakdown, why is he doing it and why has his opinion changed? I want to care and relate to the character, I just want to know why I should and can at this point.

I think if they let him grow rather than constantly regress he would be a much better character for it....
My favorite moments with hal were at the end of final crisis and when he was spectre(and some of his early stuff) and i think it's because he was allowed to actually develop in those times and be different from the standard 'hal jordan -the best space cop routine..

[Darrell D.]

Who said anything about him being an anti-hero? Not me. Hal doesn't need to be the reluctant hero. Or the outcast, misfit hero. Or the villain with a penchant for doing heroic things. Or the dark hero who does questionable things in his pursuit of justice. He can still be the hero he always was. I'm just saying the characterization opportunities a redemption seeking Hal Jordan could have presented were dropped in favor of the expediant of making him exactly as he was before.

Rebirth still could have made him a viable hero. He still could have been the guy who jumps in to every situation because he wants to do the right thing. This would have just given an extra reason for his actions. He would have been the hero with some personal baggage that he needs to work through. He'd be a hero, yet a flawed hero. It's called characterization. And in this case, it's characterization that would have naturally flowed from the preceding events. Instead, DC opted to excise those bits in favor of Didio's now classic "iconic version" of the character. The iconic version of Hal is flawless, and Johns' yellow fear monster possession cop-out gave us that version back without the extra "burden" of having to write a character who isn't perfect.

Yeah, the yellow fear monster was a major cop-out. Really, they should have pulled the old 'Jean Grey' switcheroo...Hal flew into the power battery, but Parallex came out. Parallex, not being Hal, but Hal in stasis in the Power Battery. It would have made more sense, and would have been less stupid. Plus, no need for redemption. Hal is back, all squeaky clean. Man-crushes restored all over the world.
Not to mention, no Rainbow Power Rangers Lanterns.

[Adam K]

Hey Rayner fans, help me out:

Sometime, probably late 90's early 2000's, I randomly picked up a GL book, but all I remember was Kyle sitting around his appartment depressed, reading books with his ring, creating a room full of Jades with his ring, and flashing back to when he found Jade in his shower. Any idea what issue this was?

[Michael P]

You'll all note that when Kyle got possessed by Parallax, his temples didn't turn grey.

[Babylon23]

I'm just saying the characterization opportunities a redemption seeking Hal Jordan could have presented were dropped in favor of the expediant of making him exactly as he was before.

Rebirth still could have made him a viable hero. He still could have been the guy who jumps in to every situation because he wants to do the right thing. This would have just given an extra reason for his actions. He would have been the hero with some personal baggage that he needs to work through. He'd be a hero, yet a flawed hero. It's called characterization. And in this case, it's characterization that would have naturally flowed from the preceding events. Instead, DC opted to excise those bits in favor of Didio's now classic "iconic version" of the character. The iconic version of Hal is flawless, and Johns' yellow fear monster possession cop-out gave us that version back without the extra "burden" of having to write a character who isn't perfect.

Hal isn't exactly who he was before. He still bears the guilt over what happened when he was possessed by Parallax. It's been part of several stories in GL, most notably his search for the lost Lanterns. It was also part of Sinestro War.

The difference is that it isn't the single defining aspect of his character. It's not in his nature to dwell on these matters endlessly. His personality is more action-oriented, so while he bears the guilt of his actions he tries not to let it interfere with his duties.

Hal is by no means flawless. He's brash, has problems with authority and sometimes acts without weighing up the consequences of his actions.

For me, this makes him far more interesting than Kyle. Kyle IMO is comic book reader wish fulfillment, the pop culture fan and artist who suddenly finds himself gaining amazing powers. It's like Marz tried to create me but with superpowers. I found it more annoying than relatable.

IMO Hal is more like the guy many of us want to be like, whereas Kyle is the guy many of us are. I'm just more interested in reading about Hal.

[Raker616]

^ Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Alex L]

I think I see your point, it would like blaming the victim.

And, of course, while it didn't last long enough for some folks, Hal DID deal with consequences for a time. Distrust from fellow heroes and Lanterns alike did occur through the issues. He had to earn their respect again, and frankly, imo, it shouldn't have taken THAT long for him to do so...otherwise it makes the heroes look like they were doing the equivalent of accusing a rape victim of "asking for it"

That's part of my issue with the Parallax retcon.

Instead of making it a redemption path for Hal, it placed the onus on the Lost Lanterns.

The ones who were stranded in space and lost their purpose in life? They're the ones that need to get over it. Hal shouldn't have to do squat.

Regardless of what type of being Hal was, Hal was still Hal. He knows what he did. The excuse that he was a cosmic being is just that. It's an excuse to absolve Hal of guilt and responsibility. It's no better than Johns' absolution expediant; the yellow fear bug.

Again, my memory is a little hazy as it's been so long, but I believe Hal's reignition of the sun was not done for altruistic reasons. He did it because he still wanted to remake the world in his own image. Everyone let him do it because they had no other choice. Yes he died saving the world; a hero's death if you will, and that's how many chose to remember him, but his guilt is what kept him in purgatory until Day of Judgment. He couldn't forgive himself for what he'd done.

Anyways, we've deviated from the original point, which is that Hal, while a heroic character with adventures that are fun to read, is not by nature a relatable character.

In this case, it was. Hal offered to restore the sun, control the damage, and do absolutely nothing else.

[Babylon23]

In this case, it was. Hal offered to restore the sun, control the damage, and do absolutely nothing else.

Except that Hal acknowledges that he has a long road towards proving himself again in the eyes of the lost lanterns. Part of why he goes after them in the first place is to try and redeem himself for the damage he caused as Parallax.

[TeamED209]

Hal isn't exactly who he was before. He still bears the guilt over what happened when he was possessed by Parallax. It's been part of several stories in GL, most notably his search for the lost Lanterns. It was also part of Sinestro War.

The difference is that it isn't the single defining aspect of his character. It's not in his nature to dwell on these matters endlessly. His personality is more action-oriented, so while he bears the guilt of his actions he tries not to let it interfere with his duties.

Hal is by no means flawless. He's brash, has problems with authority and sometimes acts without weighing up the consequences of his actions.

For me, this makes him far more interesting than Kyle. Kyle IMO is comic book reader wish fulfillment, the pop culture fan and artist who suddenly finds himself gaining amazing powers. It's like Marz tried to create me but with superpowers. I found it more annoying than relatable.

IMO Hal is more like the guy many of us want to be like, whereas Kyle is the guy many of us are. I'm just more interested in reading about Hal.

Everyone is going to find one character more or less interesting than the other. that doesn't make one or the other the better character....
I think conceptually there's nothing wrong with the base of either character and it just depends on who you enjoy reading more but my problem with hal is he's the same character as 20 years ago whereas kyle has had a more natural evolution and the events that have happened to him have a more clear effect on him....but as i've said thats just what i prefer to read that doesnt make kyle the better character

[dumbstruck]

Before he became aware of his possession, yes, it was 'Hal being Hal' as he was utterly unaware of being controlled by Parallax.

So Hal, carrying the burden of that guilt, sacrificed his life to re-ignite the sun at the end of Final Night.

Wow. You've really bought into the whole retcon possession thing.


I got it when it came out and, to be honest, it's been awhile since I've picked it up and read it.

My memory is hazy as well but I believe he did it to do just that, altruistic reasons.

There were a number of DC heroes who grumbled of course, wondering what he was up to but what it boiled down to was Hal, in a small way, trying to make up for what he did.

It was at this time that Hal resurrected Olvier Queen as well, this leads me to believe that his 'sacrifice' during Final Night was a selfless act.




Well, he's not really supposed to be.

Hal Jordan is that prick at the end of the bar who can get his ass whipped at darts yet still walks out of there with the best looking girl in the joint on his arm.

He's the Leaguer who drives everybody nuts with his ridiculous swagger and cockiness, they hate it when he acts like that because 1) it's obnoxious and 2) he usually pulls off whatever b.s. stunt he's trying to pull.

Hal Jordan is the Ferris Bueller of the DCU. He's not relatable at all because if anyone else tries to pull off that act they'd look ridiculous but somehow, for Jordan, it just works.

He makes it work by sheer willpower alone, that's what makes his character a compelling one.

You and I have wildly different opinions on what makes a character compelling.
I know I'm probably sounding like a broken record, but what makes GL Hal Jordan compelling is not Hal Jordan. It's the stories and characters constructed around him.

[dumbstruck]

I believe that the RETCON was not only cool, but ESSENTIAL and MANDATORY.

Anybody who thinks Hal should face the facts of killing so many lanterns is insane themselves.

It would be preposterous to try write something like this. It would be an insult to the character and fans and legacy.

Lets face it. Hal was possessed. I view it like when spiderman is possessed by venom or canage.

Writers can avail of many plot devices.

What's insulting to readers is the expectation that everything Hal did doesn't matter because he was possessed. It would be a different story if it was meant to be possession from the beginning. It wasn't. It was a silly retcon designed to restore Hal's status quo. It spit in the face of all the creators who spent years adding depth to Hal Jordan's one-note character. Among them Ron Marz, Dan Jurgens, Karl Kesel, J.M. DeMatteis, and Geoff Johns himself who put him in the role of The Spectre in order for him to seek redemption.

I do agree with the fact that it did lead to SCW. But that could just as easily have been done without a contrived absolution for Hal and with a slightly rewritten back story as to the origin of the yellow light.

[dumbstruck]

Everyone is going to find one character more or less interesting than the other. that doesn't make one or the other the better character....
I think conceptually there's nothing wrong with the base of either character and it just depends on who you enjoy reading more but my problem with hal is he's the same character as 20 years ago whereas kyle has had a more natural evolution and the events that have happened to him have a more clear effect on him....but as i've said thats just what i prefer to read that doesnt make kyle the better character

Absolutely. I have no problem with Hal either. I enjoy my share of Hal stories. He's just not that relatable.

[Violently Apathetic]

You'll all note that when Kyle got possessed by Parallax, his temples didn't turn grey.

No, but he did get a skunk stripe on the top of his head.

Also, this is such a futile argument. People have different expectations and find different things compelling in these characters. You can keep insisting that Hal was 'one note' or Kyle is 'an everyman cliche,' but these characters have built up fanbases throughout the years, so obviously there is something appealing about them to those individuals who consider themselves fans. Why do we (general we) INSIST on trying to tell one another 'No, you're wrong. You should actually find Hal boring and here's why....'?

[dumbstruck]

No, but he did get a skunk stripe on the top of his head.

Also, this is such a futile argument. People have different expectations and find different things compelling in these characters. You can keep insisting that Hal was 'one note' or Kyle is 'an everyman cliche,' but these characters have built up fanbases throughout the years, so obviously there is something appealing about them to those individuals who consider themselves fans. Why do we (general we) INSIST on trying to tell one another 'No, you're wrong. You should actually find Hal boring and here's why....'?

Agreed. That's what happens when you argue the pros and cons for any character. People cannot separate themselves from their inner fanboy and look at it objectively. For myself, in this case, I'm not especially a fan of either character, so I feel I am being objective towards both.

[Rev. Calibos]

You and I have wildly different opinions on what makes a character compelling.
I know I'm probably sounding like a broken record, but what makes GL Hal Jordan compelling is not Hal Jordan. It's the stories and characters constructed around him.

We agree on that much at least.

Hal become a much more interesting character to me once I learned about his father and how he died, about his brothers and the rest of his family. He became a deeper character when I learned about his mother and how she forbade Hal from enlisting in the Air Force yet Hal, on the morning of his 18th birthday, sat outside the recruiting office waiting for it to open so he could sign up.

And a lot of that was newer developments but Hal's father, his brothers, family, etc., his relationship with Carol, his drunk driving incident, all of these have been long standing things that have shaped his character for a long, long time.

In all honesty I don't know that much about Kyle. I know about how he lost his gf, I know that he and Jade dated for awhile but other than that I just don't know.

Does he have parents? Siblings? What was his childhood like?

If these things have been addressed I haven't seen them. Now, I don't have every issue of GL with Kyle in the lead but I have a number of them and while I like Kyle as a character there just isn't as much there as there is with Hal.

[Karl O'Neill]

What's insulting to readers is the expectation that everything Hal did doesn't matter because he was possessed. It would be a different story if it was meant to be possession from the beginning. It wasn't. It was a silly retcon designed to restore Hal's status quo. It spit in the face of all the creators who spent years adding depth to Hal Jordan's one-note character. Among them Ron Marz, Dan Jurgens, Karl Kesel, J.M. DeMatteis, and Geoff Johns himself who put him in the role of The Spectre in order for him to seek redemption.

I do agree with the fact that it did lead to SCW. But that could just as easily have been done without a contrived absolution for Hal and with a slightly rewritten back story as to the origin of the yellow light.

I don't think even Alan Moore or grant morrison could write something as gargantuam as pulling off what you what.

I.e. Hal facing up to mass murder and continuing as a super hero.

[dumbstruck]

I don't think even Alan Moore or grant morrison could write something as gargantuam as pulling off what you what.

I.e. Hal facing up to mass murder and continuing as a super hero.


Well, just call me strange for preferring a complex story of redemption over contrived, deus ex machina plot devices.

[Violently Apathetic]

Does he have parents? Siblings? What was his childhood like?

If these things have been addressed I haven't seen them. Now, I don't have every issue of GL with Kyle in the lead but I have a number of them and while I like Kyle as a character there just isn't as much there as there is with Hal.

I think there is just as much there.

Kyle's search for his father was a BIG part of his series, in fact I'd say his father issues were a major theme in the book. We also got a good idea of what his home life was like during his (many) interactions with his mother. He is an only child. As for what he was like as a kid...well, the impression I got from the issue/s surrounding his high school reunion and an earlier tale that stated he used to hang out with bullies is that he was an eager to please sort who wanted to fit in. That may actually tie into his abandonment issues.

ETA:
Well, just call me strange for preferring a complex story of redemption over contrived, deus ex machina plot devices.

I don't disagree, but I wonder how viable Hal would have been as a hero without that dues ex machina? I'm not sure how willing people are to forgive mass murder, even if the guilt and desire for redemption is sincere.

[Karl O'Neill]

Well, just call me strange for preferring a complex story of redemption over contrived, deus ex machina plot devices.

IMHO it could only be considered *Contrived* if he only used Parallax just the once, Just for that one Rebirth story. To suit his needs of absolving Hal.

But the fact they he integrated the fear entity into the entire Mythoes--The Entire Green lantern corps history means to me that it was actually quite potent and useful for further-future storylines.

I don't think it is as bad as say one more day it's only magic.

[SMKSPY]

You'll all note that when Kyle got possessed by Parallax, his temples didn't turn grey.

No, he had a skunk streak.

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg186/ErmacMkz/Kyle_parallax.jpg

I think OYL really hurt Hal as far as his Redemption went. Just 9 issues into his return and suddenly it's a year later. A lot of good stories wasted because of that.

And I may be wrong (have to go back and check this), but I seem to remember one issue of the Spectre that deal with Hal confronting Parralax. To me, this was the first sign of the possession angle.

And Hal has shown himself to be a very vulnerable character that does regret things. During the Wanted arc, he was very remorseful over getting his air force buddies and himself captured. Hal wanting to be his own man despite his GL status was always an aspect of the character, and finally, he learned the lesson to always keep the ring. Something Johns returned to in Secret Origin.

Young boy with adopted parents tries to figure out who he is and find out more about his parents. Upon realising both sets of parents love him and want the best for him, he goes from the small town to the big city in search of success and to establish who he is as an independent young man rather than just as his parents son.

Again, Not relatable for me. Though doesn't stop me from loving the character.

I don't find that relatable in the least. Sorry. Maybe, you do. Great. Personally, I'd have gone more with 30s Superman being the everyday man that fights corrupt banks and local governments.

Boy suffers tragedy at a young age and devotes his money and time to protecting others from suffering the same fate, even if that means being hands on in dealing with these negative elements.

Again, not relatable to me. Maybe if I had the money that Bruce did. Still love the character.

Naive young woman comes to America and tries to fit into a man's world where power isn't all about how strong you are, but how you act and handle real life situations with practicality and dignity knowing it's a man's world.

No, again. Though obviously WW isn't that relatable to many considering how many writers can't seem to definitive direction for her. Love the character though.

Wow, how completely hard to identify with. I'm sure no immigrants, charity founders or feminists could look to these characters to identify with.

And I'm sure they do relate to their ideals and values, but it is very very hard to relate to the lone survivor of an alien planet, a lifelong billionarie, and an Amazonian that was created from clay.

Try this one though,

An young boy tragicly witnesses his hero father die before his eyes. He grows up trying to be every bit of the man his father was, yet is conflicted because his mother doesn't want the same tragic fate to befall him. Eventually, he is given the chance to not only to proven himself, but exceed his father's legacy.

Yeah, that's not relatable. People see relatability where they choose too. What makes one character relatable for one person won't work for the next. Ultimately, you really don't have to relate to a character to find that character enjoyable. If relatability were essential for character enjoyment people wouldn't read many comics or fiction for that matter.

[TeamED209]

Agreed. That's what happens when you argue the pros and cons for any character. People cannot separate themselves from their inner fanboy and look at it objectively. For myself, in this case, I'm not especially a fan of either character, so I feel I am being objective towards both.

Yip i agree there's no point aruging over who is better because we all have our favorites and i've got to give geoff and tomasi plus co credit for having a group of characters who are essentially the same but are the same time so different and for creating intense loyalty(obviously it wasn't just geoff but the various GL writers over the year like marz ect)..

If it were up to me i think hal in the main GL series works as much as i don't rate the character, the book is good but i think they should narrow the focus on corps more to kyle, like perhaps focusing half the book always on him plus his supporting cast(kilowog,guy ect) and then roughly half have story arks focused on the other newer characters,,,also if it were up to me i'd have as much stel as possible in there(is there a ark that focus's on stel like origins ect?)

[dumbstruck]

No, he had a skunk streak.

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg186/ErmacMkz/Kyle_parallax.jpg

I think OYL really hurt Hal as far as his Redemption went. Just 9 issues into his return and suddenly it's a year later. A lot of good stories wasted because of that.

And I may be wrong (have to go back and check this), but I seem to remember one issue of the Spectre that deal with Hal confronting Parralax. To me, this was the first sign of the possession angle.

And Hal has shown himself to be a very vulnerable character that does regret things. During the Wanted arc, he was very remorseful over getting his air force buddies and himself captured. Hal wanting to be his own man despite his GL status was always an aspect of the character, and finally, he learned the lesson to always keep the ring. Something Johns returned to in Secret Origin.



Again, Not relatable for me. Though doesn't stop me from loving the character.

I don't find that relatable in the least. Sorry. Maybe, you do. Great. Personally, I'd have gone more with 30s Superman being the everyday man that fights corrupt banks and local governments.



Again, not relatable to me. Maybe if I had the money that Bruce did. Still love the character.



No, again. Though obviously WW isn't that relatable to many considering how many writers can't seem to definitive direction for her. Love the character though.



And I'm sure they do relate to their ideals and values, but it is very very hard to relate to the lone survivor of an alien planet, a lifelong billionarie, and an Amazonian that was created from clay.

Try this one though,

An young boy tragicly witnesses his hero father die before his eyes. He grows up trying to be every bit of the man his father was, yet is conflicted because his mother doesn't want the same tragic fate to befall him. Eventually, he is given the chance to not only to proven himself, but exceed his father's legacy.

Yeah, that's not relatable. People see relatability where they choose too. What makes one character relatable for one person won't work for the next. Ultimately, you really don't have to relate to a character to find that character enjoyable. If relatability were essential for character enjoyment people wouldn't read many comics or fiction for that matter.


You're completely missing the point. You're trying to relate to the surface of the character. You're taking it at face value. What we're talking about is what the character represents, not what the character is.

[Superbeast]

No, he had a skunk streak.

And I'm sure they do relate to their ideals and values, but it is very very hard to relate to the lone survivor of an alien planet, a lifelong billionarie, and an Amazonian that was created from clay.

Try this one though,

An young boy tragicly witnesses his hero father die before his eyes. He grows up trying to be every bit of the man his father was, yet is conflicted because his mother doesn't want the same tragic fate to befall him. Eventually, he is given the chance to not only to proven himself, but exceed his father's legacy.

Yeah, that's not relatable. People see relatability where they choose too. What makes one character relatable for one person won't work for the next. Ultimately, you really don't have to relate to a character to find that character enjoyable. If relatability were essential for character enjoyment people wouldn't read many comics or fiction for that matter.

Are you serious? Are you actually serious? Are you not aware the very nature of comics is about vicarious participation via identification with characters that are analogues for humanity and the trials we all face? Are you seriously, seriously taking the characters at face value here? Dear God. I suppose Moby Dick is just about a bloke chasing a whale, right? Honestly... wow.

If Hal was looking to exceed his father's legacy, he'd be a member of the Blackhawks, not the Green Lanterns. His father was never a Green Lantern. Maybe Tomar Tu fits that bill since his father was a GL but not Hal. You are misusing the term legacy a bit.

Incidentally, how is that relatable? "Guy watches father die in crash, ignores all of his family's wishes and steals a plane to prove his worth, gets job despite basically commiting multiple crimes by breaking onto an airforce base and stealing a classified aircraft because the boss has a crush on him, becomes test pilot and eventually space cop. The lesson here: never listen to your family and do whatever it takes to get a job even if you break the law." I honestly don't know anyone who has got a job by stealing a vehicle to prove their proficiency against their family's wishes. Seems pretty illegal, illogical and inconsiderate. I also don't know many pilots than moonlight as community wardens or police in their free time. Their is one guy who basically acted against his family's wishes and did some dirt, however he is not a hero to anyone right now, he's doing 4 years at her majesty's pleasure and his baby mama won't even visit him or see his kid. So I suppose some can relate to that but not necessarily in a good way.

[SMKSPY]

Are you serious? Are you actually serious? Are you not aware the very nature of comics is about vicarious participation via identification with characters that are analogues for humanity and the trials we all face? Are you seriously, seriously taking the characters at face value here? Dear God. I suppose Moby Dick is just about a bloke chasing a whale, right? Honestly... wow.

Oh man, you're just too easy to get. I just bet you're that guy at your local comic shop. You know that guy. Comics are serious business, indeed.:tongue:

If Hal was looking to exceed his father's legacy, he'd be a member of the Blackhawks, not the Green Lanterns. His father was never a Green Lantern. Maybe Tomar Tu fits that bill since his father was a GL but not Hal. You are misusing the term legacy a bit.

Way to state the obvious there. He was fulfilling his father's legacy first by joinging the air force, then by being a hero. Sure, the GLC wasn't the exact path that his father strode down, but it's still the path of a hero. I'm sorry that it isn't the EXACT path and I didn't realize I needed to spell that out for you.

Incidentally, how is that relatable? "Guy watches father die in crash, ignores all of his family's wishes and steals a plane to prove his worth, gets job despite basically commiting multiple crimes by breaking onto an airforce base and stealing a classified aircraft because the boss has a crush on him, becomes test pilot and eventually space cop. The lesson here: never listen to your family and do whatever it takes to get a job even if you break the law." I honestly don't know anyone who has got a job by stealing a vehicle to prove their proficiency against their family's wishes. Seems pretty illegal, illogical and inconsiderate. I also don't know many pilots than moonlight as community wardens or police in their free time. Their is one guy who basically acted against his family's wishes and did some dirt, however he is not a hero to anyone right now, he's doing 4 years at her majesty's pleasure and his baby mama won't even visit him or see his kid. So I suppose some can relate to that but not necessarily in a good way

See, I just love how you berate me for taking the heroes YOU love at face value, then you go and do the same exact thing to Hal Jordan. Sweet irony, indeed. So let me remind you,

Are you serious? Are you actually serious? Are you not aware the very nature of comics is about vicarious participation via identification with characters that are analogues for humanity and the trials we all face? Are you seriously, seriously taking the characters at face value here? Dear God. I suppose Moby Dick is just about a bloke chasing a whale, right? Honestly... wow.

You're completely missing the point. You're trying to relate to the surface of the character. You're taking it at face value. What we're talking about is what the character represents, not what the character is.

No, I'm not completely missing the point. I know what the character of Hal Jordan as Green Lantern represents. Apparently, for some what he represents isn't enough or can never compare to the other heroes of DC universe. Why? I don't know honestly. But let's just say I'm relating to "surface of the character," what is it gonna take for Hal to become a deep character? I'm relating to what is on paper in front of me. It might not be enough for you, but certainly is enough for me. I don't read Hal-GL for character angst and deep self-reflection. I have Kyle for that. Ultimately, I must be crazy for reading Hal-Gl because he is a great super-hero and I'm not expecting characterization the level of Yorick Brown.

[dumbstruck]

Oh man, you're just too easy get. I just bet you're that guy at your local comic shop. You know that guy. Comics are serious business, indeed.:tongue:



Way to state the obvious there. He was fulfilling his father's legacy first by joinging the air force, then by being a hero. Sure, the GLC wasn't the exact path that his father strode down, but it's still the paths of the hero. I'm sorry that it isn't the EXACT path and I didn't realize I needed to spell it out for you.



See, I just love how you berate me for taking the heroes YOU love at face value, then you go and do the same exact thing to Hal Jordan. Sweet irony, indeed. So let me remind you,





No, I'm not completely missing the point. I know what the character of Hal Jordan as Green Lantern represents. Apparently, for some what he represents isn't enough or can never compare to the other heroes of DC universe. Why? I don't know honestly. But let's just say I'm relating to "surface of the character," what is it gonna take for Hal to become a deep character? I'm relating to what is on paper in front of me. It might not be enough for you, but certainly is enough for me. I don't read Hal-GL for character angst and deep self-reflection. I have Kyle for that. Ultimately, I must be crazy for reading Hal-Gl because he is a great super-hero and I'm not expecting characterization the level of Yorick Brown.


I posted this above, but I think it's appropriate in response to your post....

People cannot separate themselves from their inner fanboy and look at it objectively.

You can't relate to Superman because he's an alien. You can't relate to Batman because he's rich. And you can't relate to Wonder Woman because she's made of clay. But you can relate to Hal Jordan because he has a magic wishing ring.

Uh....Yeah. Makes sense to me.

[SMKSPY]

I posted this above, but I think it's appropriate in response to your post....

People cannot separate themselves from their inner fanboy and look at it objectively.

You can't relate to Superman because he's an alien. You can't relate to Batman because he's rich. And you can't relate to Wonder Woman because she's made of clay. But you can relate to Hal Jordan because he has a magic wishing ring.

Uh....Yeah. Makes sense to me.

No, I can't relate to Hal because he has a magic wishing ring. It's the man, not the plot device that I can relate too. I can relate to Hal because growing up I was something of a risk taker myself. I wanted to join the air force against my parents wishes. Medical reasons prevented me from getting in, much to my parents excitement. You seem to think you're seperating your inner fanboy, but from everything I've read you really aren't. All I see from your posts is the constant hate for character with claims of indifference. The only thing you can see in Hal Jordan is a man with a wishing ring that no one can relate too. Those who can relate to Hal Jordan apparently only relate to him for superficial reasons.

And like I said, I may not be able to relate to Superman, Batman, or WW, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying their characters for what they represent. Well, I can kinda relate to Superman having grown up on a farm myself and being a writer, but that's about it. I guess, you either love or hate Hal Jordan. He is the Nickelback of comics.

[dumbstruck]

No, I can't relate to Hal because he has a magic wishing ring. It's the man, not the plot device that I can relate too. I can relate to Hal because growing up I was something of a risk taker myself. I wanted to join the air force against my parents wishes. Medical reasons prevented me from getting in, much to my parents excitement. You seem to think you seperating your inner fanboy, but from everything I've read you really aren't. The only thing you can see in Hal Jordan is a man with a wishing ring that no one can relate too. Those who can relate to Hal Jordan apparently only relate to him for superficial reasons.

And like I said, I may not be able to relate to Superman, Batman, or WW, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying their characters for what they represent. Well, I can kinda relate to Superman having grown up on a farm myself and being a writer, but that's about it.


According to your own post, you think they're unrelatable because of their respective plot devices. Ergo, it must be Hal Jordan's plot device that makes him relatable to you.

[Superbeast]

Oh man, you're just too easy to get. I just bet you're that guy at your local comic shop. You know that guy. Comics are serious business, indeed.:tongue:



Way to state the obvious there. He was fulfilling his father's legacy first by joinging the air force, then by being a hero. Sure, the GLC wasn't the exact path that his father strode down, but it's still the path of a hero. I'm sorry that it isn't the EXACT path and I didn't realize I needed to spell that out for you.



See, I just love how you berate me for taking the heroes YOU love at face value, then you go and do the same exact thing to Hal Jordan. Sweet irony, indeed. So let me remind you,





No, I'm not completely missing the point. I know what the character of Hal Jordan as Green Lantern represents. Apparently, for some what he represents isn't enough or can never compare to the other heroes of DC universe. Why? I don't know honestly. But let's just say I'm relating to "surface of the character," what is it gonna take for Hal to become a deep character? I'm relating to what is on paper in front of me. It might not be enough for you, but certainly is enough for me. I don't read Hal-GL for character angst and deep self-reflection. I have Kyle for that. Ultimately, I must be crazy for reading Hal-Gl because he is a great super-hero and I'm not expecting characterization the level of Yorick Brown.

Dude, Superman's an immigrant story. Batman is a case of a man doing a job to save others from similar personal misfortune. Wonder Woman is a strong woman dealing with a man's world. Hal Jordan is a man who wanted to honor his father so disrespected family's wishes and commited crimes to prove he was worth giving a job to. The moral to his origin story is "it's okay to commit crimes and ignore your family in order to gain employment like your dad".

That's not surface value, that is the moral to his story. "Commit a crime and get a great job with the possibility of even better employment if fortune favours you or the boss fancies you. You might even get the power to judge and sentence other criminals by a mysterious benefactor".

Come on, dude. Last time I checked, you don't steal things to earn a place in the world and things don't just fall out of the sky and give you unlimited opportunities. However that is Hal's story. It's not a particularly good moral to the story in my view. Theft, parental disrespect and foolish pride are not particularly heroic qualities or actions yet they are rewarded in Hal's tale whereas they are punished most other classic literature (Hansel and Gretel, The Boy Who Cried Wolf). Maybe for me that's what it ultimately is, Hal's story is fairly villainous, selfish and naive at it's root and formation so the idea of a character with those qualities being a hero just doesn't work for me as well as it should.

As for comics being serious business, that's not the case. What does does matter to me is that as a writer myself, Hal's motivation eludes me. His behaviour is that of an immature, direspectful cad who would put himself above authority while acting as it and that should actually be detestable (See Gaston in Disney's Beauty And The Beast for a great example of that) however he's the hero? What motivated him to take up his father's occupation when his father died an awful death on the job? To prove he is better than his father was? Some petty desire to prove his mother wrong by breaking onto a secure US airforce base, even if her intentions were based on the fact she didn't want to lose a son the same way she lost her husband? Given the reverence and respect most heroes show their parents or parental figures (Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Spider-Man) as supposedly good role models, Hal's actions don't really fit the mold of a hero. His actions weren't for some greater good, his actions were not selfless, they were driven by ego.

[Seven_Ride]

Dude, Superman's an immigrant story. Batman is a case of a man doing a job to save others from similar personal misfortune. Wonder Woman is a strong woman dealing with a man's world. Hal Jordan is a man who wanted to honor his father so disrespected family's wishes and commited crimes
That's a significant misreading of Hal's origin. You guys seem more bound and determined to throw whatever defense possible AGAINST the concepts employed with Hal, as a means of deconstructing his appeal.

Hal is relatable to some readers, inspirational to others, and for some neither of the above. Same is true for every character. That doesn't mean Hal should be modified to suit the people that DON'T get it. Most people do, so it's not a concern.

Come on, dude. Last time I checked, you don't steal things to earn a place in the world and things don't just fall out of the sky and give you unlimited opportunities. However that is Hal's story.
And here's the kettle being called black by the pot, because "things don't just fall out of the sky and give you unlimited opportunities" is Kyle's story too.

We get it guys. You prefer Kyle to Hal, and will construct whatever argument you can to make it seem as if your opinion is a truth, rather than opinion. But that's the thing: Even if you don't like Hal, others do, and it's OKAY that we all like different things.

Despite what you think, Hal has been around a long time and is quite popular in the modern market. There's nothing Hal needs to "prove" to his detractors at this stage.

What I find saddest, is that rather than celebrating what Kyle brings to the table, this thread is mostly about "My problem with Hal". The question becomes: What exactly IS Kyle's appeal, without Hal around as a board to throw darts at? Doesn't seem to be much, frankly.

[Superbeast]

That's a significant misreading of Hal's origin. You guys seem more bound and determined to throw whatever defense possible AGAINST the concepts employed with Hal, as a means of deconstructing his appeal.

Hal is relatable to some readers, inspirational to others, and for some neither of the above. Same is true for every character. That doesn't mean Hal should be modified to suit the people that DON'T get it. Most people do, so it's not a concern.


And here's the kettle being called black by the pot, because "things don't just fall out of the sky and give you unlimited opportunities" is Kyle's story too.

We get it guys. You prefer Kyle to Hal, and will construct whatever argument you can to make it seem as if your opinion is a truth, rather than opinion. But that's the thing: Even if you don't like Hal, others do, and it's OKAY that we all like different things.

Despite what you think, Hal has been around a long time and is quite popular in the modern market. There's nothing Hal needs to "prove" to his detractors at this stage.

What I find saddest, is that rather than celebrating what Kyle brings to the table, this thread is mostly about "My problem with Hal". The question becomes: What exactly IS Kyle's appeal, without Hal around as a board to throw darts at? Doesn't seem to be much, frankly.

Kyle's story was not "things fall out of the sky and opportunities open up". Kyle's story was "things are given to you, it's down to you to be responsible or face the cosequences" as he did with Major Force and his first girlfriend's death. Honestly, what has Hal lost that he hasn't got back? Everything he had twenty years ago and gave up/destroyed/forsook, his friends, his identity, his personal life, he has back. Even in the comics he is basically 40 going on 20 at this point.

A hero's journey is based on sacrifice and redemption, everything he sacrificed he has once more and he didn't redeem himself because Hal wasn't the bad guy, Parallax was. If his sacrifice in Final Night had stuck then it would have made more sense but as that is rendered moot at this point and the blame placed on a fear monster, it rings hollow. Kyle's girlfriends haven't came back nor has his mother, the character has continued to move forwards and evolve, forging new relationships and redefining itself via continually progressing characterisation. All that made Hal different and interesting was wiped away.

I find the idea of a guy who stole a jet to get a job stealing more power to make things right for him as a logical progression personally. That said person only makes a personal sacrifice for the people that have stuck with him and believed in his inherent good nature despite his selfish behaviour also makes sense to me. That he then has to make things right by God, the very being who's universe he tried to remake, also makes sense to me.

I don't think throughout this thread I've read anything about why Hal is an admirable hero other than "he was born to be a hero" and explanations that ignore his entire origin is based on selfish, impractical and immature behaviour to one up his parents. Can you actually address some of the questions I am posing rather than just quoting me with sarcastic comments? Please tell me how Hal's origin shows selfless, altruistic or heroic qualities and behaviour. he doesn't do the right thing because he chooses to, he does so because little blue men told him to. Then when they told him something he didn't like, he wiped them out to remake the universe. Which fits in line with someone who didn't respect their mother's cautionary wishes.

Before you say "the same goes for Kyle", no it doesn't. Kyle was given the ring and advised to do the right thing, but Ganthet didn't send him out on missions, if anyone did it was the JLA.

You say we don't GET Hal but then don't tell us what there is to get or what we aren't getting. "He's a cowboy!" is the best one so far, but Jonah Hex is a lot better at the rebel cowboy thing. Is it that there is nothing to prove to his detractors as you claim or that there is not enough to prove his detractors wrong? I think the general consensus is Hal is not as interesting as the situations he is put in and as a sounding board, he works. However when it comes to relatable characterisation, the character isn't very relatable and as I've argued, his story actually works against the common themes of heroic tales. He is basically Hansel with a fighter jet and no time for commitment.

[Seven_Ride]

Look, the problems that you see with Hal all stem from the fact you prefer Kyle in PLACE of Hal.

In other words...Hal isn't some dramatically flawed fictional construct. Rather he's a fictional construct you find flaws in. Big difference. I'll provide some examples of THAT:

Kyle's story was not "things fall out of the sky and opportunities open up".
How is it NOT as valid a summary for Kyle as it is for Hal?

All that made Hal different and interesting was wiped away.Hal was interesting from the 60s onward for thousands and thousands of fans of all ages, and up to this day is still a very popular character. You're fascinated by him too.

Please tell me how Hal's origin shows selfless, altruistic or heroic qualities and behaviour. he doesn't do the right thing because he chooses to, he does so because little blue men told him to.
One small example for you that you can find in the Archives or Showcase volumes: After being brought out to the desert to a crashed alien ship, Abin Sur tells him that he's dying and that Hal has been elected for a great honor. Hal doesn't flinch, doesn't scream, doesn't try to kill Abin. The first words Hal spoke in comics were: "How can I help?"

Also what you wrote above is incorrect: In the original comics Hal was a hero for some time before he even knew about the Guardians. They revealed themselves to him only after he proved his worth.

Then when they told him something he didn't like, he wiped them out to remake the universe.This is skewed. Hal didn't wipe out the Guardians. They committed suicide by pouring all their power into Ganthet.

Besides which, let's not pretend that anything written after 1993 and before 2004 is a faithful rendition of the character. Most of it's not. If what you know of Hal comes from that era, then we're talking about two VERY different characters.

You say we don't GET Hal but then don't tell us what there is to get or what we aren't getting. "He's a cowboy!" is the best one so far, but Jonah Hex is a lot better at the rebel cowboy thing. Is it that there is nothing to prove to his detractors as you claim or that there is not enough to prove his detractors wrong?But there isn't any way to prove anything. It's all just opinion. And you obviously aren't looking to change yours. And I'm not even saying you should. I'm only pointing out that your view is limited, perhaps clouded. A lot of Kyle fans came across this way because they viewed Hal as a threat to Kyle's success.

But let's say I like Picasso and you don't. No one is going to convince you of Picasso's genius, if all you WANT to see is simplistic blue cubes on a canvas. And that's the gist of this conversation: You don't want to like Hal, and keep challenging people's reasons for seeing something you don't want to see, and proffering up yours as the majority view.

Which it may have been for a short while like 15 years ago. But not today, thankfully.

[Alex L]

Oh man, you're just too easy to get. I just bet you're that guy at your local comic shop. You know that guy. Comics are serious business, indeed.:tongue:

...really? After twelve pages and however many posts you've made, now it's a variation of this argument is stupid anyways?

See, I just love how you berate me for taking the heroes YOU love at face value, then you go and do the same exact thing to Hal Jordan. Sweet irony, indeed. So let me remind you,


I believe that was to be an illustrative example.

If you take all the things that make Superman a relatable character -- his desire to do good solely because he can, his need to hide his true self under a Clark Kent guise at the Planet (how many of us repress the snarky or the aggressive aspects of our personalities at work), or the immigrant story which I personally feel resonates more strongly with Supergirl's origin, or whatnot -- and throw it all away under "well he's an alien and I can't relate to that" -- it does come across exactly like saying "well Hal was given a magic ring and I can't relate to that."

And the more I think about Hal, especially after all this discussion, the more I wonder how damaged the guy is. My armchair-psychoanalysis says he's trying to be just like his dad.

Except Martin Jordan died when Hal was like eight. Well before the age where you realize your parents are just people, with their own flaws and quirks.

So he's a pilot. Because that's what his dad was. He wears the same kind of jacket as his dad did. Hell, even his womanizing ways may stem from some line of thinking of that's the kind of guy his dad was.

[dumbstruck]

You say we don't GET Hal but then don't tell us what there is to get or what we aren't getting. "He's a cowboy!" is the best one so far, but Jonah Hex is a lot better at the rebel cowboy thing. Is it that there is nothing to prove to his detractors as you claim or that there is not enough to prove his detractors wrong? I think the general consensus is Hal is not as interesting as the situations he is put in and as a sounding board, he works. However when it comes to relatable characterisation, the character isn't very relatable and as I've argued, his story actually works against the common themes of heroic tales. He is basically Hansel with a fighter jet and no time for commitment.

You might as well quit. No matter what we say, the Hal fanboys will remain willfully obtuse, and read it as little more than a Hal vs Kyle argument.

It's just like all that polarization that happened during Final Crisis. "What? You don't like Final Crisis? Well obviously you must hate everything Grant Morrison has written because you aren't smart enough to get it."

There are those who cannot separate themselves from who they like and any opinion viewed as critical is an attack on them.

When compared to other characters, I think Hal is relatable to some, but doesn't possess that universal theme that plays to a wider percentage of the population. Themes like those found in Superman, Batman or Wonder Woman. Once again, I enjoy reading Hal's adventures, but as you say, Hal is only as interesting as the situations he's put in.

[Hullababy]

You might as well quit. No matter what we say, the Hal fanboys will remain willfully obtuse, and read it as little more than a Hal vs Kyle argument.

It's just like all that polarization that happened during Final Crisis. "What? You don't like Final Crisis? Well obviously you must hate everything Grant Morrison has written because you aren't smart enough to get it."

There are those who cannot separate themselves from who they like and any opinion viewed as critical is an attack on them.

When compared to other characters, I think Hal is relatable to some, but doesn't possess that universal theme that plays to a wider percentage of the population. Themes like those found in Superman, Batman or Wonder Woman. Once again, I enjoy reading Hal's adventures, but as you say, Hal is only as interesting as the situations he's put in.

What character is relatable depends solely on the reader and not on your views. It doesn't matter whether you or the others find him relatable or not. You may find Kyle to be relatable but I find him to be absolutely nothing of that sort. It all depends on the reader and that is why we all have different favorite characters.

[dumbstruck]

What character is relatable depends solely on the reader and not on your views. It doesn't matter whether you or the others find him relatable or not. You may find Kyle to be relatable but I find him to be absolutely nothing of that sort. It all depends on the reader and that is why we all have different favorite characters.

Which is what I just said. Where I view a differentiation is in the universality of themes the character represents, which is what I've been talking about since the beginning. It's nothing to do with Hal over Kyle. In fact, my argument has relied more on comparing Hal with The Trinity, rather than with Kyle. It's been all the Hal fans who've consistently been turning the discussion back to Hal vs Kyle.

BTW, thanks for adding evidence to my comments about the discussion devolving to a Hal vs Kyle argument.

[Violently Apathetic]

You say we don't GET Hal but then don't tell us what there is to get or what we aren't getting. "He's a cowboy!" is the best one so far, but Jonah Hex is a lot better at the rebel cowboy thing. Is it that there is nothing to prove to his detractors as you claim or that there is not enough to prove his detractors wrong? I think the general consensus is Hal is not as interesting as the situations he is put in and as a sounding board, he works. However when it comes to relatable characterisation, the character isn't very relatable and as I've argued, his story actually works against the common themes of heroic tales. He is basically Hansel with a fighter jet and no time for commitment.

How familiar are you with some of the earlier Green Lantern stories? Have you read the introductory three part story that launched 'Tales of the Green Lantern Corps,' for example? Hal falls into the more classic superhero model in those sorts of stories, having the bulldog like tenacity and stubbornness that remains part of his characterization to this day, but it is balanced with a sort of down to Earth humility and nobility of spirit.

Even the current Hal DOES fall into a common hero model, just a much older one than we may used to. His pride reminds me of a classic Greek hero. The classical heroes were not considered heroes for their outstanding morality, but because they were bigger than 'us' on some level. They were incredibly flawed (and in some cases even cruel and unlikable) individuals, but their stories are timeless because of those flaws, and what they can and do achieve despite them. Hal may be closer to an Achilles than a Superman in the sense that he is not always the perfect hero, or even a nice guy, but he's a lot more like a regular person because of it. Real people screw up and do selfish things sometimes. Maybe Hal doesn't fit into the superhero archetype as well as some, but I'm not entirely convinced that works against his relatability or makes him less interesting.


I think you should take into consideration that some people may consider Hal following his dream to be a pilot, despite his mother's wishes, as admirable on some level. It was selfish, even Hal acknowledges that he ripped his family asunder, but some people believe that we have to follow our hearts, and Hal always believed he was meant to fly. I don't think it was about 'showing up' his father at all, but becoming closer to him through a shared passion and dream. While I understand and sympathize with his mother's anxiety I do feel that she was also limiting and hurting her son.

I can relate to scared, damaged parents who, though well intentioned, are smothering. Defying parental authority in that sort of situation is almost a necessary step to becoming a fully actualized adult, despite the pain it may cause. The problem is that the rest of his family (the possible exception being Jim) is just as stubborn as he is, so there was no reconciliation.

People keep saying 'the character is/n't relatable.' I really wish they'd stick to saying 'the character is/n't relatable to me. Maybe it's implied, but I admit the only reason I keep stubbornly arguing the point is because I feel that people keep trying to tell me that a character I find relatable somehow isn't, and that I'm wrong for thinking he is.

[Superbeast]

How familiar are you with some of the earlier Green Lantern stories? Have you read the introductory three part story that launched 'Tales of the Green Lantern Corps,' for example? Hal falls into the more classic superhero model in those sorts of stories, having the bulldog like tenacity and stubbornness that remains part of his characterization to this day, but it is balanced with a sort of down to Earth humility and nobility of spirit.

Even the current Hal DOES fall into a common hero model, just a much older one than we may used to. His pride reminds me of a classic Greek hero. The classical heroes were not considered heroes for their outstanding morality, but because they were bigger than 'us' on some level. They were incredibly flawed (and in some cases even cruel and unlikable) individuals, but their stories are timeless because of those flaws, and what they can and do achieve despite them. Hal may be closer to Achilles than Superman.


I think you should take into consideration that some people may consider Hal following his dream to be a pilot, despite his mother's wishes, as admirable on some level. It was selfish, even Hal acknowledges that he ripped his family asunder, but some people believe that we have to follow our hearts, and Hal always believed he was meant to fly. I don't think it was about 'showing up' his father at all, but becoming more close to him through a shared passion and dream. While I understand and sympathize with his mother's anxiety I do feel that she was also limiting and hurting her son.

I can relate to scared, damaged parents who, though well intentioned, are smothering. Defying parental authority in that sort of situation is almost a necessary step to becoming a fully actualized adult, despite the pain it may cause. The problem is that the rest of his family (the possible exception being Jim) is just as stubborn as he is, so there was no reconciliation.

People keep saying 'the character is/n't relatable.' I really wish they'd stick to saying 'the character is/n't relatable to me. Maybe it's implied, but I admit the only reason I keep stubbornly arguing the point is because I feel that people keep trying to tell me that a character I find relatable isn't.
Thank you for at least explaining why you find the character to have depth and the themes you feel the character embodies. This is the kind of substantive argument I was looking for. I think the Achilles comparison is fair given Hal is very much a hero in his own mind even if some, like myself, view his actions as driven by ego. I do think there may be something to your point about Hal embodying an older heroic archetype than the more familiar modern ones. It's food for thought.

[Hullababy]

Which is what I just said. Where I view a differentiation is in the universality of themes the character represents, which is what I've been talking about since the beginning. It's nothing to do with Hal over Kyle. In fact, my argument has relied more on comparing Hal with The Trinity, rather than with Kyle. It's been all the Hal fans who've consistently been turning the discussion back to Hal vs Kyle.

BTW, thanks for adding evidence to my comments about the discussion devolving to a Hal vs Kyle argument.

Thats because this thread is titled Kyle Rayner is the best. I have no intention of making this a Kyle vs. Hal debate and I'm sorry if I came across that way.