Why no Kryptonian empire?

[themango55]

Based on the high technological level of Krypton, wouldn't one think they would have occupied many planets rather than just one?

And in this process, they would likely discover that a yellow star turns them into Gods, making their galactic empire even more unstoppable.

[_OM_]

Based on the high technological level of Krypton, wouldn't one think they would have occupied many planets rather than just one?

And in this process, they would likely discover that a yellow star turns them into Gods, making their galactic empire even more unstoppable.

...I've been thinking about that, and from what we've seen so far at one time there was apparently some semblance of a "Kryptonian Empire", and that it got severely beaten back through efforts not yet shown. One thing I suspect we'll find is that early Kryptonian colonies were founded much in the same way we'd found our own colonies: on planets orbiting stars like our own sun. In the case of Krypton, shoot for a high-gravity planet orbiting a red sun. Both factors mean no super powers, and for all we know there could be something in the religion of Rao that at one time said "Thou shalt not read/eat/sleep/frack/live by the light of a sun that is not red".

[Mainline]

Based on the high technological level of Krypton, wouldn't one think they would have occupied many planets rather than just one?Superman 653 - "Up Up and Away Part VII" - Kryptonian fleet and galactic conquest is all but expressly stated... Luthor uses one of their ships to fight a recently returned Superman. Luthor narrates "... and with its power, they struck fear into the civilizations around them. Held galaxies in an iron grip. . . . The fleed was Kryptonian. . . . I don't know why they would ever give up such power, such dominance, such authority, but it doesn't matter."

In the last line, Luthor hand waves away the issue... this gap in knowledge might mean that Luthor was merely speculating as to the Empire, but who can say? Preceding "Up Up and Away", Birthright addressed the issue of Empire by centralizing power/control on Krypton and have a fundamentally different ethic towards scientific advancement.

A rough analog would be the rise of China's civilization. After centuries of bloody war, centralized power lead to a period of enlightenment, peace, prosperity, but also relative xenophobia, focusing on improving the existing kingdom rather than expanding its borders. China became a victim of its technological success, however, as standardization was good- but rigid- stifling innovation. This fits, also, with Byrne's stoic take on Kryptonians- stoicism often associated with Confucian values.

The idea of the unceasingly expanding empire is a fairly unique western ideal (arguably stemming from a Biblical imperative to exercise dominion). The vast majority of cultures, when they do war for land, are content to stop with what they consider "theirs". There's no reason Kryptonians, as a whole, would be fixated on spreading across the universe following just one cultural model.

[themango55]

Even if they were content to give up the empire, why give up the advantages offered by yellow sunlight? Even if they wanted to destroy their empire willingly if they had one (which I doubt, they would likely need to get rid of 90% of the kryptonian population), why not move the homeworld to somewhere where everyone has super speed, strength, flight and no vulnerability to disease and death.


The idea of the unceasingly expanding empire is a fairly unique western ideal (arguably stemming from a Biblical imperative to exercise dominion). The vast majority of cultures, when they do war for land, are content to stop with what they consider "theirs".

I definitely don't agree with this, there's nothing biblical or western about creating empires. Alexander's empire and the Roman empire preceded any biblical influence. The Persian, Arab, Ottoman, and Sassanid Empires were all near eastern empires all expanded as much as they could. The Aztec Empire certainly conquered as much territory as they could, and weren't content to stop at certain borders, and the largest land empire in history, the Mongol Empire, was eastern.

[Mainline]

Even if they were content to give up the empire, why give up the advantages offered by yellow sunlight?False presumption that they even knew about the advantages of yellow sunlight. Jor-El's knowledge may have been unique, just as his foreknowledge of the destruction and approach to rescuing his son was unique.


Even if they wanted to destroy their empire willingly if they had one (which I doubt, they would likely need to get rid of 90% of the kryptonian population)Take it up with Luthor/Busiek/Kryptonians. Further you're making another assumption, that Empire demands population. The cruiser was semi-autonomous. Empire may have ruled in a way similar to the Viltrumites.


I definitely don't agree with this, there's nothing biblical or western about creating empires.Genesis assigns Man the duty of exercising dominion over Creation... depending on how one interprets that, dominion and creation may demand global empire or beyond to be proper stewards.


Alexander's empire and the Roman empire preceded any biblical influence.Haha.


the Mongol Empire, was eastern.Uh, also one of the briefest empires in all of history as well. In any case, your pre-enlightenment examples are moot because your original premise is that: 1) Kryptonians never had an empire when, at least according to recent continuity, they did. 2) Kryptonian empire would be driven by technology... in light of that you have to look at technologically driven empires, which, even in modern history are rare or unsuccessful.

Jor-El's findings were scientific... that is repeatable and verifiable... yet Kryptonian society rejected his claims, nor was there a venue or forum for him to publish his findings in an open way which would grant acceptance- this is in a technologically sophisticated society- that means that there is central control or overriding policies much more significant than purely science. Technology, even if it did drive empire, does not rule Kryptonian culture.

[Spiffy]

I've had a fanwank for a while for this. Lets say that Krypton was in a part of the galaxy almost uniquely characterized with a lack of yellow suns. Lots of red, blue, white and orange. It would be an abberation, but if their space travel tech was only mediocre, then how would they even KNOW what yellow sunlight would do for them? They could have a reasonable sized empire in a diffent arm of the galaxy maybe, and never have faced the issue. Could have been beat back by other races who physically were at equity with them, since they'd all be confined to ships and the Kryptonians wouldn't have any idea that they could simply soak up some yellow rays and ditch the ships entirely.

We can further posit then that perhaps Jor Els ship was a further technological advancement, with a faster drive, and Jor El targeted Earth because HE'D come across the yellow sun (in fact, from what we know... a whole part of the galaxy with plenty of yellow suns) and somehow worked out what the effect would be on their physiology.

Unless we know from some other source that they knew of the yellow sun effect before the planet went boom.

[themango55]

False presumption that they even knew about the advantages of yellow sunlight. Jor-El's knowledge may have been unique, just as his foreknowledge of the destruction and approach to rescuing his son was unique.

So they never encountered a yellow sun (a fairly common color) during their centuries or millennia of empire building?



Haha.

Preceding biblical influence. Unless you think Jews had some great sway in greece and rome in those periods.


Uh, also one of the briefest empires in all of history as well.

150 years. Compare with Napoleon's French Empire which lasted 10.


In any case, your pre-enlightenment examples are moot because your original premise is that: 1) Kryptonians never had an empire when, at least according to recent continuity, they did. 2) Kryptonian empire would be driven by technology... in light of that you have to look at technologically driven empires, which, even in modern history are rare or unsuccessful.

Maybe those reasons are moot when applied to the original topic, but not when refuting Imperialism being a western/biblical trait.

[Mainline]

They could have a reasonable sized empire in a diffent arm of the galaxy maybe, and never have faced the issue.Only problem with that rationalization is that Up Up and Away expressly says "galaxies" and shows an ancient ship capable of making it to Earth long before Jor-El made his ship. The ultimate and actual answer is that this is just part of the Superman myth that needs to be accepted with a healthy dose of suspended disbelief.

But if you need to rationalize it, there's no reason Kryptonians must be the sole arbiters of their destiny... the Guardians of Oa, fearing the power of the Martians, engaged in genetic modification to stem their destructive capacity. For all we know, they stymied Kryptonian endeavor and discovery in a similar way. Alternatively, though less frequent in the DCU (compared to Marvel), yellow-sunlight processing Kryptonians may be a fairly recent mutation arising long after Krypton gave up their space-faring ways.

[Mainline]

Maybe those reasons are moot when applied to the original topic, but not when refuting Imperialism being a western/biblical trait."attempting to refute"... the issue is Technological Imperialism, not just any person (rather than a planet-wide culture) with a alexander, napoleon, or Genghis Khan complex. Basically, you're pigeonholing an entire planet's perspective into demanding an imperial prerogative which is culturally narrow and counter-Birthright continuity.

[themango55]

Why is that worse than pigeonholing a culture, like you are doing?

[Mainline]

Why is that worse than pigeonholing a culture, like you are doing?

Based on the high technological level of Krypton, wouldn't one think they would have occupied many planets rather than just one?"Be fruitful and multiply" and "take dominion over Creation" are imperatives which are so imprinted onto your mind you presume tech-empires are an inevitable conclusion "wouldn't one think"- put simply, if you have the tech to fulfill these imperatives you must do it-... I can only believe it stems from Western culture, in your case, because it certainly doesn't come from global culture. Your only counters are empires born of madmen or not driven by tech.

Now maybe I've pegged you wrong, but you haven't given me reason to think otherwise.

[themango55]

Madmen?

Julius and Agustus Ceasar, Napoleon, Alexander, Hannibal, and Ghengis Khan are not what I would call madmen. Ambitious, driven, and occasionally brutal, yes. But they were not mad.

Also the Persian Empire is not linked to a single person, and was one of the longest lived empires in history, extremely powerful at several points during its life.

Your link between religion and imperialism seems tenuous at best. I'm not sure why you single out the west for this just because they have been recently successful. it hasn't always been the case, and cultures worldwide have desired power and expansion. This isn't a solely western trait, or even a solely human trait, many animals have the same mindset of domination over an environment.

What do you mean "Driven by tech"? Any would-be conquerer will use any technological or strategic advantage they have to their fullest extent. The Mongols had far superior siege wepons, bows, and tactical prowess than any of the western people they conquered.

[Mainline]

are not what I would call madmen.Of course you wouldn't... to you, endless expansion is normal, despite nearly everything in nature finding an equilibrium.


Also the Persian Empire is not linked to a single person, and was one of the longest lived empires in history, extremely powerful at several points during its life.Post-technological enlightenment empires are the only relevant ones, ancient technology driven by the whims of madmen or dynasties do not dictate a global imperative... as tech advances, leaders become fungible, their godhood and tyranny are stripped away, and you see less rational excuses to march across continents... which is why religious motives can and still prevail post-tech. All that said, Persian Empire is again a bad example because their expansion period(s) was driven by and handful of leaders and relatively brief, after which they accepted equilibrium. Thus my original premise, others stop when they get "theirs". Your western thought is what makes multi-planet colonization imperative.


I'm not sure why you single out the west for this just because they have been recently successful.Because you can't honestly say that your view of expansion is born of other cultures with a straight face, it's based on your culture. Again, Post-Tech cultures have accepted equilibrium (barring "theirs" mentality) otherwise there would be a cultural imperative to colonize space or rampage across the continents. No one is doing that. At most there might be a "need" based imperative to expand, but post-tech there's no such need if reproduction is moderated and resources properly stewarded... only a "be fruitful and multiply" mindset demands expanded consumption. You proved your brain was in that space when you figured the Kryptonian empire had to slaughter its population in order to withdraw, because you couldn't imagine space controlled by technology rather than Kryptonian seed spilt everywhere.

The fact that's it's impossible for you to imagine a culture that, given technology, would elect NOT to be imperialistic is born from western culture, because you have yet to share any person cultural influences to the contrary.


What do you mean "Driven by tech"? Any would-be conquerer will use any technological or strategic advantage they have to their fullest extent.Yes, a conqueror would use any tech. However, having high-tech doesn't turn someone into a conqueror like your opening post insists. Tech-driven imperialism is not a global cultural trait or inevitability.

[galactica]

The was a Kryptonian Empire long ago and they knew about their powers under yellow suns. Most of this was when the House of Zod and the Military Guild ruled Krypton, when the House of El and the Science Guild came to power, they recalled all their forces and dismantled the fleet. They felt that the power Kryptonians had was corrupting them.

Read "Up, up, and away" and "The Third Kryptonian."

[themango55]

Of course you wouldn't... to you, endless expansion is normal, despite nearly everything in nature finding an equilibrium.

Equilibrium in nature is reached because of opposing forces, not because they decided to stop expanding. Herbivore populations are kept in check by carnivores, if something kills those carnivores, the herbivore population spirals out of control until disease or famine forces an equilibrium again.


Post-technological enlightenment empires are the only relevant ones, ancient technology driven by the whims of madmen or dynasties do not dictate a global imperative... as tech advances, leaders become fungible, their godhood and tyranny are stripped away, and you see less rational excuses to march across continents... which is why religious motives can and still prevail post-tech. All that said, Persian Empire is again a bad example because their expansion period(s) was driven by and handful of leaders and relatively brief, after which they accepted equilibrium. Thus my original premise, others stop when they get "theirs". Your western thought is what makes multi-planet colonization imperative.

Of course they are the only relevant ones, because the rest don't support your point.

Another example: Japan. And don't say the Emperor, they would have fought on after he wanted them to stop. Besides, their tech was advanced, right? So their leader became fungible, his godhood and tyranny stripped away.

Almost every nation's expansion period is relatively brief, and usually driven by the leaders of the nation, with support from the populace. This is the case now as it was then. Is not every western nation accepting an equilibrium at this point?


Because you can't honestly say that your view of expansion is born of other cultures with a straight face, it's based on your culture. Again, Post-Tech cultures have accepted equilibrium (barring "theirs" mentality) otherwise there would be a cultural imperative to colonize space or rampage across the continents. No one is doing that. At most there might be a "need" based imperative to expand, but post-tech there's no such need if reproduction is moderated and resources properly stewarded... only a "be fruitful and multiply" mindset demands expanded consumption. You proved your brain was in that space when you figured the Kryptonian empire had to slaughter its population in order to withdraw, because you couldn't imagine space controlled by technology rather than Kryptonian seed spilt everywhere.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here, and why you keep making assumptions about my brain. You yourself say there was a kryptonian empire, my brain has nothing to do with it. Multiple Galaxy spanning empires cannot be ruled by the population of a single planet. And please tell me, oh wise zen master of all cultures, what's the point of expansion if you don't take advantage of the lands you claim?

Also, take a look at the population numbers for each continent, then tell me again which one has a "be fruitful and multiply" mindset.



The fact that's it's impossible for you to imagine a culture that, given technology, would elect NOT to be imperialistic is born from western culture, because you have yet to share any person cultural influences to the contrary.

I'd like to think it's pragmatism that makes me wonder about the lack of kryptonian expansion. It wouldn't have to be a huge empire, hell just a few systems would work.

I mean, look what happened after all. Their planet was destroyed, and the entire species and civilization was lost.


Yes, a conqueror would use any tech. However, having high-tech doesn't turn someone into a conqueror like your opening post insists. Tech-driven imperialism is not a global cultural trait or inevitability.

You don't have to conquer anyone to have a galaxy spanning empire. Unlike on Earth, most planets are uninhabited.

Are you seriously claiming there is a single culture, or even animal species, on earth that would turn town an opportunity to colonize an unclaimed habitable land just outside their borders? If so you have the most serious case of "The West is Evil" mentality I've ever seen.

[Mainline]

It's funny that a pre-nuclear Japan, to you, is considered the same as Post-tech Krypton.

Are you seriously claiming there is a single culture, or even animal species, on earth that would turn town an opportunity to colonize an unclaimed habitable land just outside their borders? If so you have the most serious case of "The West is Evil" mentality I've ever seen.Don't embarrass yourself, you're the one with the napoleon complex, see your very first post:

And in this process, they would likely discover that a yellow star turns them into Gods, making their galactic empire even more unstoppable.To your sick thinking it isn't about necessity, it's about conquest. Uninhabited planets? Puh-leez, god-hood, empire, and being unstoppable is meaningless with respect to uninhabited planets... you're craving bloodshed, subjugation, and conquest, where those things matter.

Don't backpedal and pretend it's about necessity. If Krypton merely listened to Jor-El, it wouldn't have been a necessity at the time of crisis. Using the destruction as an argument is a classic post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

The ethical issue lies more with your bloodthirsty instance on conquest rather than acknowledging than any culture could possibly constrain itself, whether the xenophobic Daxamites or the Guild of Science and House of El.

The book's casting speaks for itself. Admiral Dru-Zod and politician Har-Zod were the imperialists, but Bav Sor-El's Science Council pushed a different ethic: "That the empire was immoral. Tyrannical. That the power we had under other suns was corrupting." It doesn't take much to see what Busiek is casting as evil by invoking Zod versus good by using El. And again, it proves the point that any imperialistic impulse was driven by a narrow few rather than a global or inevitable imperative. Just because you and Zod share a common sickness doesn't mean all cultures are post-tech doomed to act out imperialism.

[themango55]

Glad you didn't address the rest of my post, I see you know when you've been beaten.

Any time you have a large empire, whether it was gained by taking from others or colonizing uninhabited lands, will always be challenged by others. Godlike powers would certainly help, whether in defense or attack.

And my "sick thinking"? Jesus christ, get down off of your high horse, it's a comic book.

I accept your arguments and answers about krypton, it's been informative. That's why I opened the thread after all, because I didn't know why a technologicaly superior species would limit itself to a single planet.

The only thing I took issue with is your assumption that the Christian West is somehow unique in "bloodshed, subjugation, and conquest" while history shows that isn't the case.


Don't backpedal and pretend it's about necessity. If Krypton merely listened to Jor-El, it wouldn't have been a necessity at the time of crisis. Using the destruction as an argument is a classic post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

No it isn't. I never implied that getting rid of the empire caused the destruction of krypton. I said that occupying multiple planets would have saved their culture and species, whether krypton was destroyed or not.

[Mainline]

I don't feel the need to address every irrational comment you make. Buddy, your entire argument boils down to "Hey, I've got a gun, shouldn't I shoot someone with it?"

Any time you have a large empire, whether it was gained by taking from others or colonizing uninhabited lands, will always be challenged by others.Typical Zod/Militaristic thinking. Where was the challenge to the Kryptonian empire? Oh, that's right, from within... reigned in by more rational minds.


And my "sick thinking"? Jesus christ, get down off of your high horse, it's a comic book."Ooh, I have tech and powers, how should I abuse them?"


I didn't know why a technologicaly superior species would limit itself to a single planet.Exactly my worry that it is unimaginable to you.


The only thing I took issue with is your assumption that the Christian West is somehow uniqueNo, not unique, but your source (You can't seriously argue Japanese imperialism is your source of inspiration- and even if it is, mass nationalistic delusion, coupled with madmen and power-hungry dynasties hardly enhances your position). Further, you haven't been saying that it's not unique but rather universal and irresistible which is detestable (that no human, much less Kryptonian, could resist imperialism given the power).


No it isn't. I never implied that getting rid of the empire caused the destruction of krypton. I said that occupying multiple planets would have saved their culture and species, whether krypton was destroyed or not.Just as erroneous and not inevitable, listening to Jor-El would've done the same thing. It's disturbing that you're making the population of their home-planet fungible so long as there's a "back up". The ethical imperative of Kryptonians is a little better than that of a mere virus. Kal-El, when he was the Last Son, wasn't plotting on how to clone himself, impregnate Kara, or reinstitute the species.

The idea that a post-tech sentient species must spread, must consume, must attack & defend before learning to develop utopia in its own backyard is backwards even by today's standards much less theirs.

[niall mc cann]

I don't agree that there is some inherent conceptual construct in the thinking of the Abrahamic religions of which imperialism was a unique expression; the Persians are a good counter point to that thinking, as was Rome.

The first thing that leapt to my mind on reading the initial question was China though- there's absolutely precedent here on Earth that an advanced, militarily powerful civilisation can abandon empire building in favour of isolationism. America's another quite good example; it's extraordinarily militarily powerful, but hasn't really ever excercised imperial ambitions in a long term or focused way.

[themango55]

Stop with the Ad Hominem already, I haven't made a single assumption about you or your way of thinking about you (except that you have an irrational hatred of Western culture).


Typical Zod/Militaristic thinking. Where was the challenge to the Kryptonian empire? Oh, that's right, from within... reigned in by more rational minds.

More like typical "hey I've studied history" thinking.


No, not unique, but your source (You can't seriously argue Japanese imperialism is your source of inspiration- and even if it is, mass nationalistic delusion, coupled with madmen and power-hungry dynasties hardly enhances your position). Further, you haven't been saying that it's not unique but rather universal and irresistible which is detestable (that no human, much less Kryptonian, could resist imperialism given the power).

History has shown that it is rare that humans can resist imperialism when given power. If Kryptonians can, then good, I have the answer to my question. I merely wanted to point out that imperialism is in no way Western or Christian.


Just as erroneous and not inevitable, listening to Jor-El would've done the same thing. It's disturbing that you're making the population of their home-planet fungible so long as there's a "back up". The ethical imperative of Kryptonians is a little better than that of a mere virus. Kal-El, when he was the Last Son, wasn't plotting on how to clone himself, impregnate Kara, or reinstitute the species.

The idea that a post-tech sentient species must spread, must consume, must attack & defend before learning to develop utopia in its own backyard is backwards even by today's standards much less theirs.

I for one would be at least somewhat relieved knowing that Earth is doomed if at least we had colonized Mars, and our species and culture preserved. Obviously Jor-El felt the same. Sure, he loved his son, so he sent him away, but why else did he send the sum of kryptonian knowledge with him, other than to preserve his culture?

Please stop using "consume" as if it's an expletive. Every species consumes, it's a natural part of life.

Also, please address this issue:


You don't have to conquer anyone to have a galaxy spanning empire. Unlike on Earth, most planets are uninhabited.

Are you seriously claiming there is a single culture, or even animal species, on earth that would turn town an opportunity to colonize an unclaimed habitable land just outside their borders?

You ask "Why expand for the sake of expansion?" Couldn't one also ask "Why advance technology for the sake of advancement?"

[Mainline]

More like typical "hey I've studied history" thinking.That primitive delusions are equivalent to modern post-tech cultures? Not much of a historian.


I merely wanted to point out that imperialism is in no way Western or Christian.It is for post-tech modern imperialists who impute their views onto the entire globe... that all mankind should have the same destiny and imperative. Most are content with what's "theirs".


I for one would be at least somewhat relieved knowing that Earth is doomed if at least we had colonized Mars, and our species and culture preserved.New Orleans to New York is about 1300 miles apart and their history is young by global standards. By your reckoning, it's OK to let New York go or not rebuild New Orleans because their cultures are fungible and the species is preserved? That kind of thinking- fungible life, fungible culture- is why you're imperialistically minded. The best way to save Kryptonian culture is to actually save Krypton, which Jor-El wanted to do.

People- lives- are not fungible in this way. It's like arguing you should have a "back up family- wives, kids, house & home" in case your original family is slaughtered and your house burns down.


Obviously Jor-El felt the same. Sure, he loved his son, so he sent him away, but why else did he send the sum of kryptonian knowledge with him, other than to preserve his culture?For Kal-El's sake, not Krypton's, otherwise Jor-El would've given him an imperative to ensure it's preservation and dissemination. Instead, Superman keeps Kryptonian tech largely under wraps rather than using it to influence the world... it's for his own private use.


Also, please address this issue:
I don't need to because: 1) It has nothing to do with your bloodthirsty motivations. 2) The proposition is as inane as "I have a gun, I must shoot."


You ask "Why expand for the sake of expansion?" Couldn't one also ask "Why advance technology for the sake of advancement?"Again, your tragically narrow perspective which fails to take history into account. This has happened in our own world again and again, but to your mind it's inconceivable... "I have a gun I must shoot. I have a power I must abuse. I have a tech I must advance." Ridiculous.

[themango55]

That primitive delusions are equivalent to modern post-tech cultures? Not much of a historian.

The truth is "tech" hasn't changed the soul and motivations of mankind all that much. Expansion has stopped because there's nowhere left to expand, but if space travel was as easy for us as it is for the kryptonians, we would expand again.


It is for post-tech modern imperialists who impute their views onto the entire globe... that all mankind should have the same destiny and imperative. Most are content with what's "theirs".

No it isn't.


New Orleans to New York is about 1300 miles apart and their history is young by global standards. By your reckoning, it's OK to let New York go or not rebuild New Orleans because their cultures are fungible and the species is preserved? That kind of thinking- fungible life, fungible culture- is why you're imperialistically minded. The best way to save Kryptonian culture is to actually save Krypton, which Jor-El wanted to do.


No, that's not my reckoning at all. In fact, without New York (and other areas) then New Orleans would have a much harder time rebuilding itself. A second colonized area provides not only a "backup" but can also provide assistance for a location struck by disaster and a home for displaced refugees.


People- lives- are not fungible in this way. It's like arguing you should have a "back up family- wives, kids, house & home" in case your original family is slaughtered and your house burns down.

"People" and "Civilization" are not the same. I don't have a culture or civilization of my own.


For Kal-El's sake, not Krypton's, otherwise Jor-El would've given him an imperative to ensure it's preservation and dissemination. Instead, Superman keeps Kryptonian tech largely under wraps rather than using it to influence the world... it's for his own private use.

Why would he need to know kryptonian history?


I don't need to because: 1) It has nothing to do with your bloodthirsty motivations. 2) The proposition is as inane as "I have a gun, I must shoot."

1) you don't want to because you can't
2) you know nothing about my motivations

[_OM_]

Equilibrium in nature is reached because of opposing forces, not because they decided to stop expanding. Herbivore populations are kept in check by carnivores, if something kills those carnivores, the herbivore population spirals out of control until disease or famine forces an equilibrium again.

...Most biologists and ecologists with a clue agree, however, that the equilibrium point is severely dictated by the intelligence and technological advancement of the species in question, combined with how well it can control its environment. Ergo, applying basic bioenvironmental equilibrium to humans - or even Kryptonians - is prone to error on a large scale. Best example is China, where if equilibrium had taken effect, by most estimates they'd have levelled out at about a half billion people instead of the 1.4 they boast.

[Mainline]

The truth is "tech" hasn't changed the soul and motivations of mankind all that much.Sure, destructive capability hasn't served as a deterrent to imperialism at all. Man can't resist imperialism. :rolleyes:


No it isn't.Western powers (or those following a western ethic) are the only ones pushing for space colonization. The entire discussion is co-opted by the west. The rest of the world is just trying to get Earth running right.


Why would he need to know kryptonian history?Are you kidding me? This is so narrowly mindedly divorced from any kind of human ethic I'm not sure there's any getting through to you. A city a scant 1300 miles away has it's own unique culture and somehow a separate planet is going to act as back-up... one that only kicks in upon the death of the original, which we're not preserving, why? Not to mention this is a civilization who just built an Earth analog from a single city at will, terraforming to be completed well within a single lifetime. They have starships, the phantom zone, and the ability to genesis planets, why is a "backup" planet a reasonable lifeboat if the goal is to preserve- rather than fracture- culture?


1) you don't want to because you can't
2) you know nothing about my motivationsI don't want to because you're an idiot. China has already been cited. You don't invest in a Great Wall because your borders are constantly expanding. Not to mention practically every modern stable power. You don't continue to develop eugenics just because the technology is there. You don't kill your neighbor and covet his home just because you can. The fact that you can't imagine sentient beings who resist imperialism speaks volumes about your mind and motivation... thank god you aren't a god.

Imperialism is far from universal, but it's difficult for an imperialist to see otherwise.

[themango55]

Western powers (or those following a western ethic) are the only ones pushing for space colonization. The entire discussion is co-opted by the west. The rest of the world is just trying to get Earth running right.

Funny how both China and India are starting a space program now.


Are you kidding me? This is so narrowly mindedly divorced from any kind of human ethic I'm not sure there's any getting through to you. A city a scant 1300 miles away has it's own unique culture and somehow a separate planet is going to act as back-up... one that only kicks in upon the death of the original, which we're not preserving, why?

I'm... not sure what you're replying to here. Or what your argument is. Or what you think my argument is.


I don't want to because you're an idiot. China has already been cited. You don't invest in a Great Wall because your borders are constantly expanding. Not to mention practically every modern stable power. You don't continue to develop eugenics just because the technology is there. You don't kill your neighbor and covet his home just because you can. The fact that you can't imagine sentient beings who resist imperialism speaks volumes about your mind and motivation... thank god you aren't a god.

Resorting to ad hominem again I see. Again, I'm not, at this point, talking about taking land/planets from established civilizations, I don't care what you think my OP implies. Establishing borders at the end of an empire doesn't disprove imperialism, see Hadrian's Wall.

You can also create a space "empire" without classical "imperialism" because of the huge numbers of uninhabited planets.

[Mat001]

If you want to discuss China, do it somewhere else. What happened is addressed in Superman #669 and Superman #653. Krypton's Miltary Guild was elected to rule with the Military Council. They went out across the galaxy and managed to become an empire, conquering many worlds. It was only when new elections were held that Bav Sor-El of the Science Guild was elected, resulting in the Science Council bringing an end to the military might of Krypton. The House of El are known for its pacifist ways and thus promised an end to the bloodshed. In the years since, it has been the Science Council that has maintained the ruling faction of Krypton into today. This is one reason Clark is on New Krypton, especially since Zod's release. He believes that Zod will do something, possibly even try to overthrow Alura and take command of Krypton with the Military Guild backing him.

Any Kryptonian who left Krypton, was eliminated by Amalak when he was hunting down Kryptonians. All but Karsta Wor-Ul were killed.

[Mainline]

Best example is China, where if equilibrium had taken effect, by most estimates they'd have levelled out at about a half billion people instead of the 1.4 they boast.The best example would be the United State's who's consumption far outpaces its population proportionately. To the extent China is a "developing nation" (according to the Western model as opposed to its agrarian traditions) it's certainly less than ideal as well.

http://earthtrends.wri.org/updates/node/236

Kryptonians literally grew a self-sustaining planet, so consumption issues are not relevant unless there is a "multiply" imperative, which clearly Jor-El did not press onto Kal-El.

[Mainline]

Funny how both China and India are starting a space program now.Colonization.


Resorting to ad hominem again I see. Again, I'm not, at this point, talking about taking land/planets from established civilizations, I don't care what you think my OP implies.Even under this ethic, which is disingenuous to your original post which clearly implied bloodshed, domination, conquest, and control, it is irrational for a society attempting to discipline itself and develop its culture to invest in a lifeboat which will fracture culture when they have space travel, quick growing ships, the ability to make planets, and the phantom zone.


You can also create a space "empire" without classical "imperialism" because of the huge numbers of uninhabited planets.Which matches neither of the ethics you have put up- godhood is unnecessary for claiming uninhabited space and spreading out does nothing to preserve themselves as a species or culture which they cannot already accomplish by other means.

[themango55]

If you want to discuss China, do it somewhere else. What happened is addressed in Superman #669 and Superman #653. Krypton's Miltary Guild was elected to rule with the Military Council. They went out across the galaxy and managed to become an empire, conquering many worlds. It was only when new elections were held that Bav Sor-El of the Science Guild was elected, resulting in the Science Council bringing an end to the military might of Krypton. The House of El are known for its pacifist ways and thus promised an end to the bloodshed. In the years since, it has been the Science Council that has maintained the ruling faction of Krypton into today. This is one reason Clark is on New Krypton, especially since Zod's release. He believes that Zod will do something, possibly even try to overthrow Alura and take command of Krypton with the Military Guild backing him.

Any Kryptonian who left Krypton, was eliminated by Amalak when he was hunting down Kryptonians. All but Karsta Wor-Ul were killed.

Interesting.

But what of the colonies established in yellow star systems? I've never heard of this Amalak, but he must be powerful indeed to kill thousands or millions of solar powered kryptonians at once.

Or perhaps he had a red sun projection device?

[Mainline]

But what of the colonies established in yellow star systems? I've never heard of this Amalak, but he must be powerful indeed to kill thousands or millions of solar powered kryptonians at once.Hah, the "multiply" ethic rears its ugly head again. Nothing in those issues or in his post suggested colonization or consumption, only conquest. But you assume it just as you did earlier:


what's the point of expansion if you don't take advantage of the lands you claim?Why does "take advantage" have to mean "breed thousands or millions of Kryptonians"? Only if you're inspired by a "multipy" ethic. Kryptonians could have been driven by a defensive imperative, technological consumption, proselytizing, or simply- perhaps psychotically- flexing their guns. But whatever their motivations they clearly did not follow your assumption.

[themango55]

Look dude, you already said they created an empire. I'm tired of arguing this with you, you think the west is evil and I'm an imperialist madman, whatever.

I'm trying to get the thread back on track. Conquest requires occupation.

[Mainline]

Look dude, you already said they created an empire. I'm tired of arguing this with you, you think the west is evil and I'm an imperialist madman, whatever.Not colonization or occupation. West v. East is flagged even by the book itself, the first subjugated planet shown has civilians wearing Chinese farmer hats. As for "west is evil", I disagree, I think the west is more inclined to imperialism than it chooses to believe... which is an inclination that is resistible if consciously recognized (in the same way the tendency is dealt with in the book). You're only an imperialist madman to the extent to refuse to acknowledge what shaped your views and try to paint the rest of the globe as similarly inclined to normalize yourself.


I'm trying to get the thread back on track. Conquest requires occupation.But not multiplication. The Viltrumite conquest is one clear example. The self-multiplying battleships of Krypton are another. In the end, everyone sent out was recalled back to Krypton. There was no great space orgy.

[Jorriss]

How close are the nearest planets to them? I mean, when we have the technology for it we'll certainly be dominating Mars and industrialization of the moon is already being planned, but then they'd likely stick within a solar system of habitable or planets they could make habitable. It seems unlikely they'd go so far out as to go to a new star (or at least thats what I'll say to myself :) )

[lonewolf23k]

Even if they were content to give up the empire, why give up the advantages offered by yellow sunlight? Even if they wanted to destroy their empire willingly if they had one (which I doubt, they would likely need to get rid of 90% of the kryptonian population), why not move the homeworld to somewhere where everyone has super speed, strength, flight and no vulnerability to disease and death.

I'd like to address this point. The thing is, having an entire population capable of Superman-style physical deeds has one net disadvantage: If they suddenly decide they don't want to follow your orders, you're going to have a hard time reigning them in. Meanwhile, a population with human-level strength, speed and vulnerability is far easier to control if you have the right weapons. And from what we've seen, the Science Council was all about control.

Why did Krypton give up it's dreams of military expansion and colonization? Because the Science Council knew it would be much harder to hold control over numerous colonies then it would be over the homeworld.

[_OM_]

Sure, destructive capability hasn't served as a deterrent to imperialism at all. Man can't resist imperialism. :rolleyes:

...Mainline, after reading almost a dozen posts of this fecal matter, I've got a question for you: what country outside the US do you hail from? It would go a long way to trying to determine just what sort of agenda you're hopped up on.

[Mat001]

Interesting.

But what of the colonies established in yellow star systems? I've never heard of this Amalak, but he must be powerful indeed to kill thousands or millions of solar powered kryptonians at once.

Or perhaps he had a red sun projection device?

He used Green Kryptonite and red solar weapons. But according to Superman #669, all Kryptonians were recalled to Krypton. The only ones who left Krypton before the planet's destruction, were the ones who went into self-imposed exile. Around eighty to a hundred. A few turned back and a few died, before getting far enough away from the red sun to use a yellow solar flash grenade to restore their powers.


Why did Krypton give up it's dreams of military expansion and colonization? Because the Science Council knew it would be much harder to hold control over numerous colonies then it would be over the homeworld.

No, it was due to the fact that Krypton is and has always been a planet of xenophobes. Meaning they don't like interacting with other worlds. This is why in Pre-Crisis continuity, they had no starships to travel to other worlds. Nor made an effort to bulid them. This is why when a ship had crashed during the final days of Krypton, Jor-El had to carefully scrounge up the materials to build the rockets for Kal-El and Krypto. And had to be careful to examine what he found in order to avoid being sent into the Phantom Zone for violating the law. Post-Crisis, it was revealed that the Eradicator was built to genetically bond the Kryptonians to their planet and thus keep outsiders like the Cleric, from staying on the planet. When Starman Jack Knight visited Krypton through time travel, he had his rod to protect him from the Eradicator's effects. In the revised continuity, it seems that the xenophobia is still in place, but the Military Guild used it for destruction rather than expansion. Bav Sor-El, as I mentioned is like all her ancestors and decendents. A peaceful person who did not believe in conquering worlds, much less killing. This is why when the elections were held, she promised to end the Kryptonian Star Empire and usher Krypton back into a peaceful age.

All Kryptonians did come back, but Admiral Dru-Zod and his loyal soldiers in the Miltary Guild, disagreed. This is why his flagship was sent off into space where it eventually landed on Earth. Dru-Zod stayed behind, but Karsta and her fellow soldiers left Krypton. In the aftermath of their exile, they were hunted by bounty hunters seeking retribution. Further down the line when Krypton was destroyed, Amalak, who's own home world was destroyed by the Star Empire, sought vengeance on the survivors. He spent the better part of Kal-El's lifetime hunting the remaining Kryptonians, but knew that there was one more. Karsta then heard about Kal-El, Kara, Karen and Krypto. This brought her to Earth since she could hide among them and let them take the brunt of Amalak's wrath, should he show up. I highly recommend reading "The Third Kryptonain". It explains quite a bit and is a good read.