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Splat24
06-03-2009, 08:20 AM
This is my issue with Wonder Woman, and her current state in comics. I have no desire to pick up the title beyond a quick flip through at the shop simply become she has become so impervious to nearly anything.

Remember back in the day when Wonder Woman could actually be overpowered occassionally? Remember when there was a sense of danger? Shes damn near untouchable now, except for some rare bloody beatdowns (I mean that literally), which are always unpleasant to look at. For Gods sake, knock her out cold once in awhile, like in the old Wonder Woman show!

I'm all for a strong heroine who can handle herself, but one that is damn near infallible is of no interest to me. Check out www.sleepycomics.com for all the instances of Wonder Woman actually getting knocked out back in the day; it happened all the time!

dreyga2000
06-03-2009, 08:35 AM
Here's an pic from a very recent issue of Wonder Woman... In fact it's from the arc that the title is currently on....

http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww65/dreyga2000/WWV302622.jpg


Problem solved....

Splat24
06-03-2009, 09:03 AM
Not at all. Did you read my first message? Thats a literal bloody beatdown. Shes covered in blood. That never used to happen back in the day. What we had then were drugged drinks, chloroform usage. Stuff like that. Ah, how I miss the days when we didnt have to brutalize our heroines and beat them to within an inch of their lives to show the power of a villian.

Splat24
06-03-2009, 09:05 AM
Oh, and in that pic, shes not knocked out. Shes speaking. Problem def not solved.

Alex Smith
06-03-2009, 09:13 AM
If you don't like powerful characters don't read them. Complaints like these always amaze me. Wonder Woman does have trouble, she's not untouchable at all. None of the characters that get that complaint are.

Anyway, what's the difference between this and her getting knocked out? Seems like a weird line to draw to me.

Thok
06-03-2009, 09:36 AM
Not at all. Did you read my first message? Thats a literal bloody beatdown. Shes covered in blood. That never used to happen back in the day. What we had then were drugged drinks, chloroform usage. Stuff like that. Ah, how I miss the days when we didnt have to brutalize our heroines and beat them to within an inch of their lives to show the power of a villian.

Apparently applying date rape tricks to a prominent female character are more appealing to you than having her use physical force. Good to know. (I acknowledge this post is somewhat trollish, but the ickiness of your point of view needed to be pointed out.)

Wonder Woman has had her current power level since the post Crisis on Infinite Earth's Perez run, in other words for over twenty years. It seems weird to complain about it now, given it's been her de facto status quo for so long.

WorstThingUS
06-03-2009, 10:56 AM
Apparently applying date rape tricks to a prominent female character are more appealing to you than having her use physical force. Good to know. (I acknowledge this post is somewhat trollish, but the ickiness of your point of view needed to be pointed out.)


Not at all. I felt the exact same reading this. This doesn't sound so much like "I want less-omnipotent heroes" as it does "I want to see Wonder Woman rendered helpless more, like in the old days when it was damn near a fetish comic."

Splat24
06-03-2009, 11:23 AM
Its not a question of being a sicko. The mere fact that a site like www.sleepycomics.com exists and has thousands of views each week should show you that my POV is a relevant and prevalent one.

To be blunt, yes, I wouldnt mind seeing it go back a bit to the old days. Back when Wonder Woman was still a very strong heroine, but also one that didnt need to be beaten with the blunt end of an ax to be knocked out. Lets approach this from a strict continuity standpoint. How is it that back in the day Wonder Woman could be chloroformed or easier to overcome, and now if someone were to try that, it would most likely never work.

I know that shes considered a goddess and all, but she was then as well and these things happenend all the time. Im not pushing for a fetish comic here. God knows there are places to go to get that if I wanted, which I most def do not. I'd just like a bit of a throwback, thats all. Maybe not even the early, EARLY days. How bout the 60's or 70's type Wonder Woman? I wasnt around then, but I've seen those comics, and I'm a fan of that type of storytelling.

Gail Simone is a fantastic writer, but she seems to have brought Wonder Woman to a place where she could go toe to toe with Doomsday and wipe the floor with the guy.

Thok
06-03-2009, 11:43 AM
Its not a question of being a sicko. The mere fact that a site like www.sleepycomics.com exists and has thousands of views each week should show you that my POV is a relevant and prevalent one.

Just because a thousand people have a certain point of view and a website doesn't make it mainstream or right. Almost any point of view can set up a website with that many views. That's also likely less people than who actually read the current WW series (especially since one person can generate multiple page views) and certainly much less than say the JL/JLU television show.


To be blunt, yes, I wouldnt mind seeing it go back a bit to the old days. Back when Wonder Woman was still a very strong heroine, but also one that didnt need to be beaten with the blunt end of an ax to be knocked out. Lets approach this from a strict continuity standpoint. How is it that back in the day Wonder Woman could be chloroformed or easier to overcome, and now if someone were to try that, it would most likely never work.

Your old days haven't existed since Crisis on Infinite Earths, and that covers a fairly significant period of time (1986-present, with possibly a bit before 1986 depending on when stuff like the I Ching era Wonder Woman ended.) If you read Rucka or Perez or Jiminez or any postCrisis Wonder Woman you'll get roughly the same portrayal of strength level.

Do you have a desire to see Superman knocked down to the Golden Age power levels (faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound, but not much more powerful than any of those statement imply?)


I know that shes considered a goddess and all, but she was then as well and these things happenend all the time. Im not pushing for a fetish comic here. God knows there are places to go to get that if I wanted, which I most def do not. I'd just like a bit of a throwback, thats all. Maybe not even the early, EARLY days. How bout the 60's or 70's type Wonder Woman? I wasnt around then, but I've seen those comics, and I'm a fan of that type of storytelling.

There are other female superheroes. If you want street level strength you can try searching for them. I'd suggest Black Canary, if I didn't think the current writer was a hack (although you might like his writing.)


Gail Simone is a fantastic writer, but she seems to have brought Wonder Woman to a place where she could go toe to toe with Doomsday and wipe the floor with the guy.

As I've mentioned above, this strength level has very little to do with Gail and very much to do with how every writer post-CoIE has portrayed her (and the JL/JLU cartoon for that matter.)

WorstThingUS
06-03-2009, 12:01 PM
Gail Simone is a fantastic writer, but she seems to have brought Wonder Woman to a place where she could go toe to toe with Doomsday and wipe the floor with the guy.

Given she's got a Superman power-level but with fighting skills he doesn't possess, she actually should be able to kick his ass.

_OM_
06-03-2009, 12:30 PM
Its not a question of being a sicko. The mere fact that a site like www.sleepycomics.com exists and has thousands of views each week should show you that my POV is a relevant and prevalent one.

...Yep. A whole bunch of basement dwellers screaming "Whip me! Beat me! Tie me to a chair with a golden rope and call me Wonder Woman!". That's a relevant and prevalent POV.

Geeky Cheeky
06-03-2009, 12:45 PM
I'm dropped WW because I feel the opposite. Since the relaunch she's too human. Secret identity, taking orders from the government, dating a puny human male. She's not even an ambassador anymore. Bring back the embassy.

Splat24
06-03-2009, 01:23 PM
...Yep. A whole bunch of basement dwellers screaming "Whip me! Beat me! Tie me to a chair with a golden rope and call me Wonder Woman!". That's a relevant and prevalent POV.

Thats def not the POV I'm trying to get across here. I'm not gunna try to explain it again when I plainly stated it before in depth.

Splat24
06-03-2009, 01:29 PM
Thok, you mention the JL/JLU cartoon at the end of your post. If you watched the cartoon, you'd notice Wonder Woman is knocked out MANY times. Shes gassed in the premiere, and throughout the multiple seasons portrayed very beautifully and powerfully, but also suceptible to defeat. Look it over again and you'll c I am right.

But the comments you made on your last post were actually very insightful and helpful. I didnt realize that post Crisis On Infinite Earths her power levels were changed and increased. Your suggestion of me catching up on Black Canary might be a good idea, but from what I've seen in that comic lately she's suffering from the Wonder Woman syndrome as well.

Vic Vega
06-03-2009, 01:45 PM
Wonder Woman is supposed to be second only to Superman in power.

If anything I don't see how she isn't destroying 99% of her rogues.

If Wondy can take a shot from a nuke, what is Cheetah supposed to do to her? Bleed on her?

Splat24
06-03-2009, 01:56 PM
Cheetah used to be able to smack her in teh back of the head and knock her out. Actually, I remember an issue where she literally threw one of her claws at Wondy and it knocked her out, leaving her floating in the middle of the river.

WorstThingUS
06-03-2009, 02:11 PM
Thats def not the POV I'm trying to get across here. I'm not gunna try to explain it again when I plainly stated it before in depth.

You're seriously not explaining what you want very well. There's a tremendous difference between "I want a less omnipotent hero. Someone all-powerful bores me." and "I wanna see her knocked out. Remember when she used to get knocked out all the time? Yeah, that was cool." The latter has a very creepy vibe and I'm hoping you don't want that.

carabas
06-03-2009, 02:28 PM
If Wondy can take a shot from a nuke, what is Cheetah supposed to do to her? Bleed on her?Cheetah is powered by a god, has superspeed, and is strong enough that even very invulnerable supers should at least feel it when she punches them.

_OM_
06-03-2009, 02:55 PM
Thats def not the POV I'm trying to get across here. I'm not gunna try to explain it again when I plainly stated it before in depth.

...Then don't whine when people "misinterpret" what you say, then.

Anthony Z
06-03-2009, 03:16 PM
Not at all. Did you read my first message? Thats a literal bloody beatdown. Shes covered in blood. That never used to happen back in the day. What we had then were drugged drinks, chloroform usage. Stuff like that. Ah, how I miss the days when we didnt have to brutalize our heroines and beat them to within an inch of their lives to show the power of a villian.

No, what you're talking about isn't brutalising heroines, it's demeaning them and making them submissive. If you want that then I'm sure there's plenty of fic on the internet to cater to your desires.

Constantine Drakon
06-03-2009, 11:06 PM
Y'know... I think this might just be a troll thread.

Gail Simone
06-03-2009, 11:53 PM
I get all kinds of oddball fetish requests for Wonder Woman. You'd be amazed.


It ain't happening, sorry.

ForEverAncien
06-04-2009, 12:12 AM
Splat24...nothing against you.

But you do not like the current theme in the WW books, then by all rights...don't read it.

If you have been keeping up, with current events...there is a bigger picture ongoing...that just not involved WW alone.

I like very much, on what is going with WW, even to the point, that the last isssue out, scared me...I actually got scared, Diana was trying hard, to keep her sanity, during that fight (if you read), and trust me, being a lonnnnnng time reader of WW, throughout the writer/aritst changes.

I got scared.

And you know what?

I like it!!!

Keep it up Gail.


This is my issue with Wonder Woman, and her current state in comics. I have no desire to pick up the title beyond a quick flip through at the shop simply become she has become so impervious to nearly anything.

Remember back in the day when Wonder Woman could actually be overpowered occassionally? Remember when there was a sense of danger? Shes damn near untouchable now, except for some rare bloody beatdowns (I mean that literally), which are always unpleasant to look at. For Gods sake, knock her out cold once in awhile, like in the old Wonder Woman show!

I'm all for a strong heroine who can handle herself, but one that is damn near infallible is of no interest to me. Check out www.sleepycomics.com (http://www.sleepycomics.com) for all the instances of Wonder Woman actually getting knocked out back in the day; it happened all the time!

Charybdis4
06-04-2009, 02:05 AM
I get all kinds of oddball fetish requests for Wonder Woman. You'd be amazed.


It ain't happening, sorry.

Thank the Lord!!! Keep up the good work Gail.

This thread is a tiny bit creepy....

Splat24
06-04-2009, 09:00 AM
Well, you know, its not like this book is flying off the shelves. Maybe a return back to the old way of storytelling would help that fact. And as I said Gail, ur a fantastic writer. This isnt a knock on your writing ability. Im just not a fan of the direction the character has taken over the years, and I know others agree. Evidently not on this thread, but others DO agree.

Splat24
06-04-2009, 09:08 AM
I get all kinds of oddball fetish requests for Wonder Woman. You'd be amazed.


It ain't happening, sorry.


Theres prolly a reason why this happens, Gail. Theres a genuinely large audience out there who have thoughts on how Wonder WOman should be. Im not saying to cater to any particular crowd, or even mine. I'm also not saying we should "depower" her and make her a submissive damsel in distress, cuz thats what she shouldnt be. She should be strong, she should be independant, perfectly capable of taking care of herself.

But she should also be able to be put in genuine danger. Im not talking the "she gets brutally torn up by a monstrous god and left half dead" danger. I'm talking human level danger. I realize that some of your requests probably leaned a bit toward the creepy, but I believe this is something that should be thought about.

Some people just LIKE seeing Wondy in danger, just like some like seeing her in high heels (as you mentioned in a previous thread), or in business wear. I'm just saying if you ever encounter a situation in your writing where you can actually make this happen, that'd be nice.

Splat24
06-04-2009, 09:19 AM
Heres a comic preview from last year: Secret Invasion Fantastic Four #1 from Marvel.

http://comicbookresources.com/?page=preview&id=229&disp=table

How do you explain that? Just look at the last page there. The writer was obviously into this kind of thing. He pretty much drew a 3 page extended KO sequence.

Dr Ray Palmer
06-04-2009, 09:20 AM
I dropped Gail's BoP early in her run because she practically never had Black Canary tied to a chair with her top ripped off in an alley behind a porno theater. Give the people what they want!

Splat24
06-04-2009, 09:23 AM
I dropped Gail's BoP early in her run because she practically never had Black Canary tied to a chair with her top ripped off in an alley behind a porno theater. Give the people what they want!

Ur absolutely hilarious. Im not talking rape here. Ive plainly stated what I'm talking about.

Darrell D.
06-04-2009, 09:25 AM
So...is this a joke thread? And there's no way in hell am I clicking on a link for 'sleepycomics.com'

WorstThingUS
06-04-2009, 09:41 AM
Well, you know, its not like this book is flying off the shelves. Maybe a return back to the old way of storytelling would help that fact. And as I said Gail, ur a fantastic writer. This isnt a knock on your writing ability. Im just not a fan of the direction the character has taken over the years, and I know others agree. Evidently not on this thread, but others DO agree.

It's been 20 years! Exactly where are all these people!?! Clearly their money is going to sources that show women in danger on a regular basis: www.yourecreepyevenifyoudontknowit.com

Shade
06-04-2009, 09:54 AM
Ive plainly stated what I'm talking about.

You really haven't. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but boiling down your comments all you have really said is you want Wonder Woman to be able to be knocked out....but by gas or drugs....so she is quiet, unconscious and not bloody or bruised.

Not sure how that makes her more "human" or in ANY way contributes to good characterization or stories, and I can't see where you have shown how it could either.

dumbstruck
06-04-2009, 11:15 AM
How is devolving WW back to a damsel in distress anything less than a slap in the face for equality? Doesn't make sense.

Samy
06-04-2009, 04:43 PM
Well, I can definitely agree with the sentiment that I'd rather see less blood in my comics. I do prefer it when a hero or heroine gets knocked out cold without showing blood spatters and bruises. Whether by drugs or by a punch is irrelevant to me, but I do prefer it when violence is less graphic. There was a time when Doc Samson got knocked out by the Hulk and his face looked just the same as before he got punched, and there was a time when Doc Samson got knocked out by the Hulk and his face ended up a purple misshapen mass.

I don't really need to see the latter. It may be more realistic but it's also more gross.

Splat24
06-04-2009, 05:13 PM
Thank you! I'm glad I have someone agreeing with me here and not turning me into some kind of sick bastard. These are fantasy situations people, in COMIC BOOKS. I in no way have acted these things out, or have the desire to in real life.

This is Wonder Woman were talking about, for gods sake. Not date rape.

Jimmy'sFriend
06-04-2009, 06:07 PM
Thank you! I'm glad I have someone agreeing with me here and not turning me into some kind of sick bastard. These are fantasy situations people, in COMIC BOOKS. I in no way have acted these things out, or have the desire to in real life.

This is Wonder Woman were talking about, for gods sake. Not date rape.
I just wanted to see if WW was worth reading! What the heck is going on in this thread!

Seriously, I like WW kicking butt! She should be doing that!

Splat24
06-04-2009, 06:16 PM
I just wanted to see if WW was worth reading! What the heck is going on in this thread!

Seriously, I like WW kicking butt! She should be doing that!

And I completely agree with you, my friend. But just not to a ridiculous degree as to make the comic sexist towards men.

WorstThingUS
06-05-2009, 12:35 AM
And I completely agree with you, my friend. But just not to a ridiculous degree as to make the comic sexist towards men.

Oh, us poor menz. 99.9% domination of the superhero comic book market threatened because Wonder Woman doesn't get knocked out enough.

dumbstruck
06-05-2009, 05:29 AM
And I completely agree with you, my friend. But just not to a ridiculous degree as to make the comic sexist towards men.


At the expense of making it sexist towards women. At least that's what I'm getting from your posts. If you don't want to see blood and broken bones in comics, than you should be saying that about all comics. By applying it only to Wonder Woman, you're belittling her and forcing her to not live up to or compete with her male counterparts.

Donald M.
07-06-2009, 10:32 PM
I get all kinds of oddball fetish requests for Wonder Woman. You'd be amazed.


It ain't happening, sorry.

Besides, if it's Wonder Woman fetish art they want, just direct them to the Golden Age Archives! :tongue:

Linkara
07-06-2009, 10:48 PM
And I completely agree with you, my friend. But just not to a ridiculous degree as to make the comic sexist towards men.

Aaaand any logical argument you had just dropped.

I can kind of see where you're going with wanting her power levels dropped to the point where knockout gas or the like could get her, even if I disagreed with you, but her being able to go toe to toe with powerful beings and only be knocked out after a continually violent and bloody fight does not make it sexist towards men.

Donald M.
07-06-2009, 10:50 PM
And I completely agree with you, my friend. But just not to a ridiculous degree as to make the comic sexist towards men.

So you're sating that if a female superhero is too powerful then it's sexist towards men?

You really should quit while you're behind.

jancy
01-15-2012, 09:12 PM
OMG! This brutality!


Ya know, there WAS a reason why Marston had many bondage, submission, etc, in his Wondie comics... to avoid the brutal violence.

Submission is a much healthier depiction of peril. And now DC is going against what Marston was establishing!?


O-M-G....we are going backwards in evolution!

Predator jp
01-15-2012, 09:24 PM
i thought my english was good enough but maybe i was wrong.
i just can't understand what Splat24 trying to say.

Dr. Hurt
01-16-2012, 06:06 AM
This is just like those Superman threads: "Superman cant be hurt so he's boring."

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/2391/1254106845680.jpg

Brought to you exlusively by people who dont read Superman or WW comics.

MajorHoy
01-16-2012, 10:14 AM
i thought my english was good enough but maybe i was wrong.
i just can't understand what Splat24 trying to say.

I'm assumimng it was the idea that he wanted Wonder Woman to be a stronger female hero able to hold her own and defeat men, but not so far to a point where men are portrayed as weak charicatures where all of them are helpless at the mere sight of the all-mighty Wonder Woman.

Balance is the key . . . not going from an extreme where women are helpless and only portrayed one way to a point where it's an exact opposite extreme. But definitely moving beyond the days where it seemed she was constantly losing her powers any time a man holds her bracelets together.

carabas
01-16-2012, 10:48 AM
I'm assumimng it was the idea that he wanted Wonder Woman to be a stronger female hero able to hold her own and defeat men, but not so far to a point where men are portrayed as weak charicatures where all of them are helpless at the mere sight of the all-mighty Wonder Woman.
No, his beef is very clearly that he has a sexual fetish damsels in distress, particularily for unconscious or drugged women, and wants Wonder Woman comics to indulge him in that from time to time.

I mean, he posted a link in his very first post...

Eliseu Gouveia
01-16-2012, 10:51 AM
... and he kept posting the link on and on, as if trying to promote it.

YouŽd think folks' spam sense would be tingling by now.