Batman and Robin #1 (spoilers)

[Kiryu]

Yeah, he didn't go about the critique well. I like Pyg personally, he seems to combine several characters together.

I LOVE Pyg, his debut was so creepy and deranged. He shows up, turns someone into his deformed Doll-slave and as he is doing this tells him "Guess what, you are going to help me do this to your daughter as well". So now this fella as the last bits of him are burnt away gets to leave this world knowing his actions condemned his daughter to this horrible fate, a fate that will be delivered by his own hand.

Awesome.

[AJM]

Oh my. Where to begin?


Quitelys art is terrible. And seriously, while we're at it, Frank, Does everyone need to be wearing wrinkly, baggy costumes and clothes? Nothing fits anyone. They all look like superhero parodies.

I don't know what comic you read, but the costumes look extremely tight to me. They have wrinkles and creases because that's what happens when clothes are tight. I think they call it "realism."


As for Morrison, it feels like in the last few years he's forgotten how to tell a good story. Instead he floods us with his wild ideas and crazy characters. I hated, HATED Batman RIP. Hated Final Crisis. Both stories were hard to follow and terribly executed. I know you Morrison fan boys are foaming at the mouth to crucify me for saying that, but it's true! Every new villain he brings to the table is a joke. This new issue follows that formula closely.

Eh? You can say what you like about the content, but in no way whatsoever does this comic follow the formula of Batman RIP. In fact, it's stylistically the complete opposite - it's a wholly linear narrative as opposed to RIP's flashbacks and non-linear, hallucinatory and almost psychedelic structure.


PYG. He's a guy with a pig mask. BUT WATCH OUT! HE IS EVIL!!!!
And one of his henchmen is a toad man.

I take it you have more information on Professor Pyg than everyone else? In the book i read, he's only in three panels and very little is revealed about him at all. As someone suggested above, perhaps you should read the Morrison interview where he explains the background on the character ("Pyg" is short for "Pygmalion" for instance, who was a Greek sculptor who fell in love with his creation... just like the Dollotrons, see?). And many people have pointed out that Toad is an homage to the non-Batman work of Bob Kane - this was news to me, so thanks to everyone who pointed it out.

Incidentally - are you a fan of Black Mask? You know, the guy with a black mask on his head?


Whatever it is, it will be a Batman story, and not something so weird that people have no clue whatsoever is going on, or why the hell its going on in Batman.

I understand that RIP may have caused some ire with its narrative style, but you really had difficulty understanding Batman And Robin? You've read comics before, right?


Don't support this crap.

Too late!

[Karl O'Neill]

Maybe he wasn't sure if you read the panels from left to right or right to left?

[Agent Wax]

Whoa guys! Calm down!
I knew I'd get crucified.
But let me address some of this.
I really wasn't just looking to get you Morrison guys fired up. I was showing the opposite side of the spectrum here. I know you guys like it, and maybe, just maybe I was a little too mean with the whole "don't support this crap" line.
But just maybe.

I'll be the first to admit that perhaps my extreme dislike for RIP and Final Crisis may have affected my review of this book. How could it not?

My dislike of PYG definitely has definitely stemmed from this. Every villain throughout his run on Batman that he brought in was corny. I'll be the first to tell you that some of Batmans villains did start out this way, but perhaps because they have been around this long and some really good stories have been told with them, it's easier to let this slide?
But I honestly didnt like one villain that Morrison brought in. The Mime guy? The guy with the bucket on his head? Tell me those guys are cool, please. Thats why I'm not liking this, I'm seeing him just being weird for weirds sake. Which I know most of you won't admit, but lots of times he does this.

I've been reading Batman for almost 20 years. Straight. No gaps. I've never disliked a run as much as I did Morrisons. Ever. I'll be the first to tell you there were some crap runs throughout those years but this one I hated the most.

I agree that this was a very different style from RIP, but it's still not a direction that I like. Maybe I'm more of a fan of the traditional Batman stories of the past 20 years and not making him dress up in a Rainbow Trash costume, with Bat-Mite as his sidekick.

But go ahead and tear my post apart some more guys. Then you can all tell each other how many times you've read the issue some more.

"I'VE READ IT 2600 TIMES! WOOOOO!"

yeah I'm sorry. I couldn't resist.

-WAX-

[Karl O'Neill]

batmite wasn;t really his sidekick. He was more of a psychological avatar batman used to help him defeat evil.

[Kiryu]

Whoa guys! Calm down!
I knew I'd get crucified.
But let me address some of this.
I really wasn't just looking to get you Morrison guys fired up. I was showing the opposite side of the spectrum here. I know you guys like it, and maybe, just maybe I was a little too mean with the whole "don't support this crap" line.
But just maybe.

I'll be the first to admit that perhaps my extreme dislike for RIP and Final Crisis may have affected my review of this book. How could it not?

My dislike of PYG definitely has definitely stemmed from this. Every villain throughout his run on Batman that he brought in was corny. I'll be the first to tell you that some of Batmans villains did start out this way, but perhaps because they have been around this long and some really good stories have been told with them, it's easier to let this slide?
But I honestly didnt like one villain that Morrison brought in. The Mime guy? The guy with the bucket on his head? Tell me those guys are cool, please. Thats why I'm not liking this, I'm seeing him just being weird for weirds sake. Which I know most of you won't admit, but lots of times he does this.

I've been reading Batman for almost 20 years. Straight. No gaps. I've never disliked a run as much as I did Morrisons. Ever. I'll be the first to tell you there were some crap runs throughout those years but this one I hated the most.

I agree that this was a very different style from RIP, but it's still not a direction that I like. Maybe I'm more of a fan of the traditional Batman stories of the past 20 years and not making him dress up in a Rainbow Trash costume, with Bat-Mite as his sidekick.

But go ahead and tear my post apart some more guys. Then you can all tell each other how many times you've read the issue some more.

"I'VE READ IT 2600 TIMES! WOOOOO!"

yeah I'm sorry. I couldn't resist.

-WAX-

You didn't really give a review. You just used a lot of words to say "I hate it because it's Grant Morrison".

And y'know, we're all talking about a book we bought and enjoyed, and with each time it's re-read, we get more and more for our money. So who is really having the more enjoyable conversations? I wonder.

[numberONE]

Whoa guys! Calm down!
I knew I'd get crucified.


...but you didn't. :rolleyes:

They hardly even got worked-up.

[Pixie_Solanas]

You didn't really give a review. You just used a lot of words to say "I hate it because it's Grant Morrison".

And y'know, we're all talking about a book we bought and enjoyed, and with each time it's re-read, we get more and more for our money. So who is really having the more enjoyable conversations? I wonder.

Is that guy denigrating the awesome "Club of Villains"? Mime guy? Bucket-head? Um, ok. That's all i needed to know about that poster.

[Agent Wax]

Is that guy denigrating the awesome "Club of Villains"? Mime guy? Bucket-head? Um, ok. That's all i needed to know about that poster.

I've still yet to hear one good thing about them. We learned NOTHING about them in RIP. NOTHING. But we're supposed to buy into characters that lame, coming out of nowhere and being able to take out Nightwing and Robin, and give Batman a run for his money? Please. It's a joke.

[Pixie_Solanas]

I've still yet to hear one good thing about them. We learned NOTHING about them in RIP. NOTHING. But we're supposed to buy into characters that lame, coming out of nowhere and being able to take out Nightwing and Robin, and give Batman a run for his money? Please. It's a joke.

They've been in bat-canon since the 40s. Morrison isn't going to do all the research for you.

[Agent Wax]

They've been in bat-canon since the 40s. Morrison isn't going to do all the research for you.

hahah do you know how ridiculous that is?
I'm a 20 year reader! If I dont know these characters how the hell is a new reader?
Hell, a reader of a few years? It's bad story telling. At least give a blurb about them and set it up. You shouldnt have to do research to read an issue of a comic book.
We've all done it from time to time to get more info on a character or situation but you should HAVE to do it for it to make sense. Come on.

[strong guy79]

The whole basis was creating iconic villains for these Batmen of all Nations. If Batman had his rogue's gallery of flamboyant characters it made sense that these ones would have had some too. It really wasn't that confusing.

I thought it was great. Each one you could imagine a rich history even though it hadn't yet been explored.

But them looking ridiculous was the point. If you saw Riddler, Joker, Penguin, Mr. Freeze, Mad Hatter and Ventriloquist for the first time in a group shot, not knowing anything about them, they would look equally ridiculous.

[Agent Wax]

The whole basis was creating iconic villains for these Batmen of all Nations. If Batman had his rogue's gallery of flamboyant characters it made sense that these ones would have had some too. It really wasn't that confusing.

I thought it was great. Each one you could imagine a rich history even though it hadn't yet been explored.

But them looking ridiculous was the point. If you saw Riddler, Joker, Penguin, Mr. Freeze, Mad Hatter and Ventriloquist for the first time in a group shot, not knowing anything about them, they would look equally ridiculous.

Yeah, that would probably be true. Which is why new characters don't stick these days as well as they did before. Fans don't get behind most new characters. For reasons such as I just pointed out. I've had so many people tell me they were so mad about the same things. They just can't see these characters as this dangerous. This caliber of villain without knowing anything about them.
Look at the Sentry. It's taken years of him being jammed down fans throats for them to finally start accepting him as a legit character. He's one of the only ones that have stuck. It's a tough thing to do in comics, and lots of fans can't just blindy "IMAGINE THE RICH HISTORY THAT HAS YET TO BE EXPLORED".

[Pixie_Solanas]

hahah do you know how ridiculous that is?
I'm a 20 year reader! If I dont know these characters how the hell is a new reader?
Hell, a reader of a few years? It's bad story telling. At least give a blurb about them and set it up. You shouldnt have to do research to read an issue of a comic book.
We've all done it from time to time to get more info on a character or situation but you should HAVE to do it for it to make sense. Come on.

I refuse to read dumbed-down piddle just because you don't know much about a character's backstory, nor can you be arsed to do a basic google search.

A blurb? A setup blurb? Matt Fraction is doing this in Uncanny and it reeks of ham-handed amateurishness.

Frankly, stick to Winick's book. You'll never feel out of place.

[T Hedge Coke]

Every villain throughout his run on Batman that he brought in was corny.

Unlike the Riddler, Scarface, Penguin, Egghead, or any other gimmick criminal Bruce punched in the past sixty plus years? Wait, you cover that, with...


[S]ome of Batmans villains did start out this way, but perhaps because they have been around this long and some really good stories have been told with them, it's easier to let this slide?

What about people who are coming to those villains for the first time? What are some non-corny Bat-villains you're aware of? Some non-gimmicky ones?


The Mime guy?

Yeah, because killer clowns are always stupid.



I'm more of a fan of the traditional Batman stories of the past 20 years and not making him dress up in a Rainbow Trash costume, with Bat-Mite as his sidekick.

So, not a fan of the "traditional Batman" in a sense of the earliest Batman portrayal, or even the average, but one you've randomly selected because it's the one you came onto the character with? Batmite, rainbow costumes, and Zur-En-Arrh precede your "traditional".

You can dislike the comics. That's fine and no one's going to deny you that, but don't try to pass off reasons like gimmick villains being cheesy as a reason older gimmick villains are better or how the Batman you first met is the "traditional" Batman, especially, if that one comes fairly late in the overall history of Bat-stories.

[strong guy79]

I was under the impression that the Club of Villains were created by Morrison for that arc. Which is fine by me. It's not like we saw the solo adventures of El Gaucho or Wingman or the rest. I don't understand why it's such a stretch that they would have their own colorful rogues and arch nemeses. I like that it just creates a sense of the DC world as a whole. If there are superheroes in the U.S. then there would probably be a ton all over the world and their own villains to match.

Like I said, I don't mind filling in the gaps myself. If anyone wants to pick up those villains later, that's fine I think any one of them could be great.

But I can see that when you have 20 years of your life invested in Batman how you might feel upset finding out there was all this stuff going on that you couldn't seen. as a 20 year veteran of all comics, though, it doesn't really bother me. But I've had a few breaks too so I don't mind not knowing the entire backstory of every single character introduced.

[dreyga2000]

At least give a blurb about them and set it up.

Well, all of them did get a blurb they were sprinkled through the dialogue....


El Sombero- Is master trap making who fashions elborate death trap for criminals too uncreative to make there own...

Scorpiana- Is world-reknowned assiassn whose once beautiful face was horrible scarred in some yet to be clarified event. She uses blue artificial scoprions loaded with a special designed toxin as her calling card...

Le Bossu-A respected neurosurgeon, a family man with two daughters and a talented wife, Doctor Guy Dax hid sociopathic tendencies from his friends and family by becoming Le Bossu, the enemy of the Musketeer. In this role, he acquired a gang of henchmen, who dress like gargoyles. His face os later mutitlated by the Joker. In the wake of the Black Gloves conspiracy, Le Bossu became a Gotham criminal, since he could not return home without exposing his secret life to his family and the authorities.

King Krakken- An aquatic criminal, he fought the adventurer known as the Wingman on a recurring basis. He appreantly relies on his strength to over power enemies and refers to criminals who use henchmen as wussies.

Swagman- An Australin gun-men taking inspiration from, the real life legendary Australian robber Ned Kelly, (who was famed for wearing crude metal body armor) for hire who apparently is an expert masksman and tracker....

Pierrt Lunaire- Is a killer mime.... Okay, they didn't say much about him... Still killer mime is kinda self-explanatory

[T Hedge Coke]

Well, all of them did get a blurb they were sprinkled through the dialogue....

Was there really anything in RIP, or in the issues before it since the beginning of Morrison's run that needed - I mean really needed - an outside explanation for the story to work? Not "this was an allusion to..." or "this is a fusion of..." but in-story, in-world. Excepting the coloring mishap with bloody Joker and arguably, Tony Daniel's awkward way of representing to the time-lapse grid of people and life in Gotham.

I'm honestly curious. Doubly - okeh, beyond triply into immensely - curious for examples people can give for what they felt was confusing or impossible to comprehend about this first issue of Batman and Robin.

[Gitaroo_Dude]

I'm pretty sure you were all just trolled by Agent Wax.

Anyone who starts off with harassing Morrison fans point blank, only to accuse everyone who points out his rant was stupid to be Morrison fanboys is clearly just trying to stir up trouble.

[MTL76]

I'm a sporadic Batman reader, but I've been reading him sporadically for 20 years, so I'm fairly well versed in the Batman universe. And I'm not an obsessive fan of Morrison, though I think his hit:miss ratio is better than most writers.

That being said, I freakin' loved this issue. Quitely's art was brilliant, and Morrison's portrayal of the new B and R is a great change: instead of a dour Batman and a relaxed Robin, it's the other way around. I love the way Grayson humors Damian's arrogance. Looking forward to #2.

Favorite lines:
"Crime is doomed."
"I'd have killed for a flying Batmobile when I was Robin."
"You can have my respect if you earn it, that's all I'm saying." (Damn, Damian is such a brat it's hilarious.)

[strong guy79]

I agree.

I like the whole idea of a 10 year old kid telling freaking Nightwing, the most respected hero in DC, to stand aside.

[Quinnhop]

I refuse to read dumbed-down piddle just because you don't know much about a character's backstory, nor can you be arsed to do a basic google search.

A blurb? A setup blurb? Matt Fraction is doing this in Uncanny and it reeks of ham-handed amateurishness.

Frankly, stick to Winick's book. You'll never feel out of place.

I. Love. You.

[mr. batman]

I thought B&R was outstanding

[Captain Jim]

Re: Agent Wax

Well, I did ask to hear from some of the people who gave this book a zero, so there you go.


Eh? You can say what you like about the content, but in no way whatsoever does this comic follow the formula of Batman RIP. In fact, it's stylistically the complete opposite - it's a wholly linear narrative as opposed to RIP's flashbacks and non-linear, hallucinatory and almost psychedelic structure.

I understand that RIP may have caused some ire with its narrative style, but you really had difficulty understanding Batman And Robin? You've read comics before, right?

Indeed. Though the majority of fans seemed to like RIP, that storyline was pretty polarizing among Batman fans, with a very signficant number of people who disliked it pretty intensely. What I'm noticing with B&R is that the majority of people who disliked RIP nevertheless liked B&R (myself included). One needs do no more than look at the poll results above to see that anyone who thinks this book was "horrible" is way out of step with what almost all of fandom is feeling.


I'll be the first to admit that perhaps my extreme dislike for RIP and Final Crisis may have affected my review of this book. How could it not?


I dunno. It didn't have that affect on me.

[Agent Wax]

I refuse to read dumbed-down piddle just because you don't know much about a character's backstory, nor can you be arsed to do a basic google search.

A blurb? A setup blurb? Matt Fraction is doing this in Uncanny and it reeks of ham-handed amateurishness.

Frankly, stick to Winick's book. You'll never feel out of place.

Right. God forbid we know who characters are. We should just wonder about their Wonderfully rich back stories. Hell why don't I just write my own fan fiction about it and fill in the blanks?
All I'm saying is for people who don't want to have to research characters like these, it wouldn't be tough to at least touch on it a bit. I'm not asking to have a Chris Claremont-esque ten paragraph thought bubble explaining something in one panel.

But hey, I'm really surprised that a Morrison lover resorted to the ole, "You're too dumb to read Grant Morrisons heavenly work" routine. Classic.
PS- what does "ARSED" mean?
And who the hell says piddle?

[NickFury90]

Right. God forbid we know who characters are. We should just wonder about their Wonderfully rich back stories. Hell why don't I just write my own fan fiction about it and fill in the blanks?
All I'm saying is for people who don't want to have to research characters like these, it wouldn't be tough to at least touch on it a bit. I'm not asking to have a Chris Claremont-esque ten paragraph thought bubble explaining something in one panel.

But hey, I'm really surprised that a Morrison lover resorted to the ole, "You're too dumb to read Grant Morrisons heavenly work" routine. Classic.
PS- what does "ARSED" mean?
And who the hell says piddle?

Why the flying **** does it matter about people's backstories anyway? Just because I don't know a character in a comic doesn't mean I'm gonna run off to Google to read up on their Wiki history just to understand why he's fighting the main character.

He was a killer mime. Thats it. I don't have to have a bunch of exposition telling me he's from France and he witnessed unspeakable horrors and cut out his tongue and learned martial arts in Japan. Does that really matter at all?

Honestly, Final Crisis/RIP has a lot of flaws, but just because I didn't know the character's name/super power doesn't mean I couldn't follow the story. I judged them by their actions. Is that really such a hard concept for you?

[Captain Jim]

Easy, Nick, let's keep our temper under control.

[Agent Wax]

Why the flying **** does it matter about people's backstories anyway? Just because I don't know a character in a comic doesn't mean I'm gonna run off to Google to read up on their Wiki history just to understand why he's fighting the main character.

He was a killer mime. Thats it. I don't have to have a bunch of exposition telling me he's from France and he witnessed unspeakable horrors and cut out his tongue and learned martial arts in Japan. Does that really matter at all?

Honestly, Final Crisis/RIP has a lot of flaws, but just because I didn't know the character's name/super power doesn't mean I couldn't follow the story. I judged them by their actions. Is that really such a hard concept for you?

I honestly think you're taking this the wrong way, or perhaps I'm not making it clear.
I don't think we NEED every characters back story. What I was stuck on is that I can't believe a character is "tough enough" Or whatever you want to call it, to take out some of my favorite heroes without some proof. Something showing me that these are legit characters and not just another Red Hulk.
You know, how Loeb throws Red Hulk at every Marvel character and he kicks the crap out of them, no matter what. But nobody knows anything about him at all. It's bad story telling. Yeah I understand the "mysterious" side of things but theres a point at which I can't buy it anymore.
Which is where I found myself after Morrisons Batman run. RIP in particular.
And I thought they were dumb looking. That was a big part also.

[NickFury90]

I honestly think you're taking this the wrong way, or perhaps I'm not making it clear.
I don't think we NEED every characters back story. What I was stuck on is that I can't believe a character is "tough enough" Or whatever you want to call it, to take out some of my favorite heroes without some proof. Something showing me that these are legit characters and not just another Red Hulk.
You know, how Loeb throws Red Hulk at every Marvel character and he kicks the crap out of them, no matter what. But nobody knows anything about him at all. It's bad story telling. Yeah I understand the "mysterious" side of things but theres a point at which I can't buy it anymore.
Which is where I found myself after Morrisons Batman run. RIP in particular.
And I thought they were dumb looking. That was a big part also.

I understand what you're saying, but thats how new villains usually work. They gotta "prove their strength" somehow, and the best way is usually going head-on and fighting the main character.

Also, yes they do look silly, but so does a paranoid billionaire playboy trained by ninjas who is suppose to be really smart, but just ends up running around in a giant bat suit punching people in the face.

[pariah-1972]

Agent Wax i am not a Morrison or Quietely fan at all but i thought this book was pretty decent and there wasn't a lot of weirdness for weirdness sakes.

Maybe you are prejudiced against him because of his fans attitude ?

I know there's a lot of people who are like that on here.

[Jake V]

Right. God forbid we know who characters are. We should just wonder about their Wonderfully rich back stories. Hell why don't I just write my own fan fiction about it and fill in the blanks?

All the relevant information about the club of villains was in dialogue in the books Morrison wrote, like dreyga2000 said:


El Sombero- Is master trap making who fashions elborate death trap for criminals too uncreative to make there own...

Scorpiana- Is world-reknowned assassin whose once beautiful face was horrible scarred in some yet to be clarified event. She uses blue artificial scorpions loaded with a special designed toxin as her calling card...

Le Bossu-A respected neurosurgeon, a family man with two daughters and a talented wife, Doctor Guy Dax hid sociopathic tendencies from his friends and family by becoming Le Bossu, the enemy of the Musketeer. In this role, he acquired a gang of henchmen, who dress like gargoyles. His face os later mutitlated by the Joker. In the wake of the Black Gloves conspiracy, Le Bossu became a Gotham criminal, since he could not return home without exposing his secret life to his family and the authorities.

King Krakken- An aquatic criminal, he fought the adventurer known as the Wingman on a recurring basis. He appreantly relies on his strength to over power enemies and refers to criminals who use henchmen as wussies.

Swagman- An Australin gun-men taking inspiration from, the real life legendary Australian robber Ned Kelly, (who was famed for wearing crude metal body armor) for hire who apparently is an expert masksman and tracker....

Pierrt Lunaire- Is a killer mime.... Okay, they didn't say much about him... Still killer mime is kinda self-explanatory

It's all in there, you just have to pay attention.

[MattyB]

B&R was both refreshing and excellent.

[AJM]

I honestly think you're taking this the wrong way, or perhaps I'm not making it clear.
I don't think we NEED every characters back story. What I was stuck on is that I can't believe a character is "tough enough" Or whatever you want to call it, to take out some of my favorite heroes without some proof. Something showing me that these are legit characters and not just another Red Hulk.
You know, how Loeb throws Red Hulk at every Marvel character and he kicks the crap out of them, no matter what. But nobody knows anything about him at all. It's bad story telling. Yeah I understand the "mysterious" side of things but theres a point at which I can't buy it anymore.
Which is where I found myself after Morrisons Batman run. RIP in particular.
And I thought they were dumb looking. That was a big part also.

This is absolutely daft logic. Would you have felt the same in 1940 when the Joker made his first appearance, where he constantly outsmarted Batman and kicked him over the side of a bridge?

[the Hornet]

Two questions -

1. If Batman and Robin with Dick and Damian turns out to be a mega hit judging by the first issue, how do you think DC will handle Dick when Bruce returns?

2. Dick/Batman seems a tall as Bruce. Is he wearing lifts? Anyone know this?

Dick is my favorite too so I hope he gets a good mileage among the A-Listers (which I already felt he was before).

[numberONE]

Excepting the coloring mishap with bloody Joker and arguably, Tony Daniel's awkward way of representing to the time-lapse grid of people and life in Gotham.

What do you mean?



2. Dick/Batman seems a tall as Bruce. Is he wearing lifts? Anyone know this?
.

Is Dick shorter than Bruce?

[AJM]

2. Dick/Batman seems a tall as Bruce. Is he wearing lifts? Anyone know this?

Without Bruce standing beside him for comparison, how can you possibly tell?

[carabas]

What do you mean?There is a scene wher the Joker is having a therapy session or something with a psychiatrist, and in his mind, he's killing Robin, Gordon... in gruesome fashion. But in reality he's just stuck in his padded cell.
The artwork error was that the real Joker and his cell were as bloodsplattered as Joker's fantasies.

[TheDreamKing]

Most of what I was about to say has already been said. It was fresh, fun, action packed and set the foundation for what is about to come in the future. A great start with a possible even greater unfolding story.

[edhopper]

I enjoyed the issue. Makes me more convinced that "Grant Morrison" is a pen name used by several different writers. This is the guy who wrote All Star Superman, not the one who wrote RIP and FC.

[Kylun123]

I enjoyed the issue. Makes me more convinced that "Grant Morrison" is a pen name used by several different writers. This is the guy who wrote All Star Superman, not the one who wrote RIP and FC.

That is hilarious.


But hey, I'm really surprised that a Morrison lover resorted to the ole, "You're too dumb to read Grant Morrisons heavenly work" routine. Classic.

I hate that as much as anyone. But the thing is I don't think anybody is saying that in this instance.

In general, that retort will come from somebody suggesting that Morrison's wacky story telling devices make the plot incoherent.

This story isn't like that. It's a pretty straightforward storyline. We didn't get Toad's origin or learn Pyg's motivations but it's ok (by most people's standards) to leave that info for another issue. This is just setting it up and getting a feel for the interaction between the new Batman & Robin, etc.

[Zeraze]

Right. God forbid we know who characters are. We should just wonder about their Wonderfully rich back stories. Hell why don't I just write my own fan fiction about it and fill in the blanks?
All I'm saying is for people who don't want to have to research characters like these, it wouldn't be tough to at least touch on it a bit. I'm not asking to have a Chris Claremont-esque ten paragraph thought bubble explaining something in one panel.


I've probably read hundreds of comics that introduced an entire new group of villains - characters that had never been seen before. I suspect you've read more than a couple yourself. Did you get this annoyed when you read those comics or do you strictly do that when Grant Morrison is involved?

As has already been pointed out, Morrison gave us brief information on the group, exactly what you seem to be asking for. You say you don't want a ten paragraph thought bubble, but it is starting to seem like you do. I highly doubt you are holding other comics writers, including whatever amounts to your personal favorites of the past, to the same standards you demand from Morrison.

[T Hedge Coke]

Why the flying **** does it matter about people's backstories anyway? Just because I don't know a character in a comic doesn't mean I'm gonna run off to Google to read up on their Wiki history just to understand why he's fighting the main character.

Reminds me of a quote from City of Silence, under the "origin" slot in a character breakdown: "Real people don't have origins, just births and deaths. Jerk."

[gocryemokid]

I haven't read this whole thread, and I noticed you guys mentioning quitely's art, so I wanted to bring this up (not sure if anyone said this before).

Does Damian look kinda like almost an old man in that panel in the beginning where is sitting in the batmobile to any of you? That kinda annoyed me. Not enough to make me put the book down or anything just like a slight "hm that's weird?" Isn't he like 10? I just don't understand why there are so many lines on his face because to me they look like wrinkles. Am I missing something?

And let me just say I'd still say this was a 4/4, and other than some of the faces the art was fine. I'm just curious why Quitely does that, because I haven't read any of the works he's done prior to this.

[T Hedge Coke]

@gocryemokid, there's more than one way to represent anything. Otherwise, this (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c0/Duchamp_-_Nude_Descending_a_Staircase.jpg) could never be a naked lady falling down the stairs (and Larocca's Foxx could never be so sexy the X-Men fell all over themselves at her arrival).

Those representations may not fly, but between words, pictures, and the progression of both into story, anybody ought to be able to understand relatively easily that Robin is a kid.

I think, with faces, Quitely's mostly cartooning textures and depth. Big chins and apple cheeks, communicative lips, and so forth. I prefer his body-language to his face-language, but, there you go.

[dreyga2000]

I enjoyed the issue. Makes me more convinced that "Grant Morrison" is a pen name used by several different writers. This is the guy who wrote All Star Superman, not the one who wrote RIP and FC.

It's intresting to note that Morrison purposely alters his writing style for each story he writes...

[Karl O'Neill]

It's intresting to note that Morrison purposely alters his writing style for each story he writes...

Further reinforcing why morrison is light years ahead of his peers.

[Kylun123]

It's intresting to note that Morrison purposely alters his writing style for each story he writes...

I don't know . . . I find that the style is generally the same . . . but sometimes it works better than others.


Further reinforcing why morrison is light years ahead of his peers.

Wow. I disagree strongly with that sentiment . . .

In what ways are Morrison's stories further advanced/"ahead" than his peers?

[T Hedge Coke]

I don't know . . . I find that the style is generally the same . . . but sometimes it works better than others.

I think the only similarities in the methods for writing/shaping Bible John and We3 is that they both were designed with eventual pictures in mind.



In what ways are Morrison's stories further "ahead" than his peers?

I don't think he's beyond every comics writer, at all, but there does seem to be a heavy segment of the comics writing world (and comics fandom), who seem to willfully ignore the last hundred and seventy years of literary development (to say nothing of art or just general critical theory and application). Hence reactions from some corners as though surrealism, cut/ups, flashbacks, or ambiguity are new and innovative... or new and horrifying lunacy.

[Karl O'Neill]

I don't know . . . I find that the style is generally the same . . . but sometimes it works better than others.



Wow. I disagree strongly with that sentiment . . .

In what ways are Morrison's stories further advanced/"ahead" than his peers?

It's the onion layers than no other writer can do.

THINK about it.

who else is doing it?

I love Johns, bendis, moore, gaimen but the who the fizzuck is doing the stuff morrison does.

Answer.

Nobody.

[Kylun123]

It's the onion layers than no other writer can do.

THINK about it.

But that doesn't make him ahead of other writers, just a different style.

The way Morrison writes isn't objectively a better way to write comics or even a more-forward thinking way to write comics . . . I just don't understand that judgement call . . .

[Kylun123]

I think the only similarities in the methods for writing/shaping Bible John and We3 is that they both were designed with eventual pictures in mind.

He has a variety of stories and some of them are written differently. And the way he varies his interests is certainly to his credit, but I do think there is a general way he executes a story.
Although there may be a few exceptions, in general it's very choppy (non-linear) and I find it lacking a sense of personal-ity. I find myself very distanced from the characters and have a hard time caring about them on a personal level, and I think it stems from his story-telling technique.


I don't think he's beyond every comics writer, at all, but there does seem to be a heavy segment of the comics writing world (and comics fandom), who seem to willfully ignore the last hundred and seventy years of literary development (to say nothing of art or just general critical theory and application). Hence reactions from some corners as though surrealism, cut/ups, flashbacks, or ambiguity are new and innovative... or new and horrifying lunacy.

Yeah, my point wasn't directed towards you, and I respect his innovation, and his attempts to try something different in comics.

However, I think what the typical Morrison fanboy, particularly the one I was responding to, refers to his complicated way of telling the story, that often leaves people unfulfilled . . .

[Karl O'Neill]

I don't know . . . I find that the style is generally the same . . . but sometimes it works better than others.



Wow. I disagree strongly with that sentiment . . .

In what ways are Morrison's stories further advanced/"ahead" than his peers?

Different style? That's like saying me and you are just as smart as Galileo Galilei only he thought of one thing one way and me and you thought it another way.

Honestly, it's not enought for you to say it's just his style is different,

Some footballers(lets say soccar) are better than others, This could be for many reasons, But the lesser footballer can;t turn around and say, HEh my style and his style are different!.

[Kylun123]

Different style? That's like saying me and you are just as smart as Galileo Galilei only he thought of one thing one way and me and you thought it another way.

Honestly, it's not enought for you to say it's just his style is different,

Some footballers(lets say soccar) are better than others, This could be for many reasons, But the lesser footballer can;t turn around and say, HEh my style and his style are different!.

Except that writing & telling a story is nothing like athletics.

The fact that Morrison chooses to tell a story in a complicated manner doesn't make it inherently better than a story that can be told in a linear fashion.
It just doesn't.

That's like saying that movies like Memento are cinematographic masterpieces compared to (insert objectively good movies here) because they institute a funky story-telling method.

[dreyga2000]

I guess a better way to put it would be by changing up his style it adds variety to his works... Certain weaknesses that exist in one story may not be present in another...

For example like how it's generally agreed that the writing styles of ASS and RIP border on opposite sides of the spectrum likewise JLA and Animal-Man are even different still...

Though similarites persist throughout each story is diffrent enough to be a generally different experience and appeal to different audiences...


While I don't think,changing his styles, nessarily makes Grant better than a his contemporaries I do find it to be a unique strength of his...

[Karl O'Neill]

Except that writing & telling a story is nothing like athletics.

The fact that Morrison chooses to tell a story in a complicated manner doesn't make it inherently better than a story that can be told in a linear fashion.
It just doesn't.

That's like saying that movies like Memento are cinematographic masterpieces compared to (insert objectively good movies here) because they institute a funky story-telling method.

1) Crap example then. Maybe I just wanted to point out that despite his difficult and complex style. He is still creating better comics than his peers. Not just because of his style. But because they are simply fascinating to the people who are reading them.

2) I disagree with your assertion that I am a morrison fanboy. I don't like Doom patrol that much, and I have plenty of dislike for Final crisis and RIP and some of his other works. I do recognise his genius though, But I don't think it automatically makes him superior. it certainly helps.

I understand plenty of people don't like or get his work. I remember somebody telling me how cool and experimental the band KRAFTWERK were and I just told them. so? I don't give a crap. I don't like bloody kraftwerk :)

Peace.

[Kylun123]

1) Crap example then. Maybe I just wanted to point out that despite his difficult and complex style. He is still creating better comics than his peers. Not just because of his style. But because they are simply fascinating to the people who are reading them.

He is not creating "better" comics than his peers. Repeating that claim in every one of your posts doesn't make it more true . . .

And they aren't "simply fascinating to the people who are reading them". They are fascinating to those that like it, there is a whole segment who reads them and do not like them at all . . .


2) I disagree with your assertion that I am a morrison fanboy. I don't like Doom patrol that much, and I have plenty of dislike for Final crisis and RIP and some of his other works. I do recognise his genius though, But I don't think it automatically makes him superior. it certainly helps.

I recognize his "genious" too. I think his creativity is unmatched, the innovation he brings to tried and old characters I find fascinating.

. . . but I still don't like the way he tells his stories . . . so I don't hold him, as a writer, to be superior to his peers . . .


I understand plenty of people don't like or get his work.

Please don't insult my intelligence with the classic and ridiculous presumption that I don't "get" it. It's rude and irrelevant . . . and I wish you had a better method for representing your point.


I remember somebody telling me how cool and experimental the band KRAFTWERK were and I just told them. so? I don't give a crap. I don't like bloody kraftwerk :)

You're acting like a fool. Because inserting yourself into your example your friend would be correct in hailing KRAFTWERK as far superior and ahead of its musical peers. And just because you simply don't get it or like it, doesn't take away from the fact that they simply fascinating to the people who are listening to them . . .

[Karl O'Neill]

You're acting like a fool. Because inserting yourself into your example your friend would be correct in hailing KRAFTWERK as far superior and ahead of its musical peers. And just because you simply don't get it or like it, doesn't take away from the fact that they simply fascinating to the people who are listening to them . . .

You were doing well until you posted the above childish crap. using words and sentences I previous used is childish and unoriginal.

When I said some people *Don't get his work* I never explicitly stated YOU don't get it. Again, You can't deny that there aren't people who post here and other places that simply don't understand his work and that the only way that they can respond is to lash out and insult the creator or the fans.

My kraftwerk example meant I understand their music and know who they are. But they are simply not to my taste. I wish people would just say that about Grant's work instead of insulting him or his work.

[Kylun123]

My kraftwerk example meant I understand their music and know who they are. But they are simply not to my taste. I wish people would just say that about Grant's work instead of insulting him or his work.

You haven't left any room for that when you declare that he is light years ahead of his peers.

I've stated clearly I respect his imagination, innovation, creativity, and willingness to push boundaries.
However, I find the way he tells the story to be difficult to relate to and internalize. I don't find the fact that he tells the story in a non-linear manner to be particularly clever or advanced when compared to other writers.

[Karl O'Neill]

You haven't left any room for that when you declare that he is light years ahead of his peers.

I declare it and stand by it:biggrin:

I'll put it in caps.

GRANT MORRISON IS LIGHT YEARS AHEAD OF HIS PEERS.

Consistently great reviews--sales--fan reactions and comments--articles done on his work--Annotations done on his work. I mean people go out of the way to write about morrison.

[Karl O'Neill]

I find the way he tells the story to be difficult to relate to and internalize.

Re-read it.

He wrote JLA for 5 years. That was pretty linear.

[bannermanonemillion]

*nervously claps hands*

Sooo....who wants to talk about how cool that flying Batmobile was?

[AJM]

I wondered how long it would take to get into a Morrison debate, ha ha!

Morrison is responsible for some of the most innovative, intelligent and commercially successful comics of the past twenty-five years, whether you like him or not.

What i don't understand is the "plenty of people read them and don't like them" argument - what? If people buy and read comics that they don't like, then that's their own stupid fault, no-one asked them to. If i don't like something, i'll drop it by the next issue, i won't continue to spend money on something that i don't enjoy solely to complain about it on website forums.

Anyway - let's get back to the topic at hand, shall we? We've all been through the Morrison debate many, many times before.

[Karl O'Neill]

I wondered how long it would take to get into a Morrison debate, ha ha!

Morrison is responsible for some of the most innovative, intelligent and commercially successful comics of the past twenty-five years, whether you like him or not.
What i don't understand is the "plenty of people read them and don't like them" argument - what? If people buy and read comics that they don't like, then that's their own stupid fault, no-one asked them to. If i don't like something, i'll drop it by the next issue, i won't continue to spend money on something that i don't enjoy solely to complain about it on website forums.

Anyway - let's get back to the topic at hand, shall we? We've all been through the Morrison debate many, many times before.

Well said.

Regarding the comment I put in bold above in your quote. Exactly. these issues he wrote were not just experimental issues or innovative. They also served as stories.

Every comic book/single issue should be a story or part of a bigger than and he was being knocking them out of the park forever.

[hYPE]

*nervously claps hands*

Sooo....who wants to talk about how cool that flying Batmobile was?

Very bad @$$ if you ask me. Was a great read and I love DG as Batman and Damian as Robin.

[Gitaroo_Dude]

WE3 WAS light years ahead of anything Morrison's peers are going. Now that Moore is off comfortably in his own corner, there really isn't anyone in mainstream comics pushing the envelop like Morrison.

Who else among his peers can compare with what Morrison is doing? Bendis? Johns? Millar?

The only guy in recent times I can think of doing something crazy was Hickman's Nightly News.

[marvelprince]

What i don't understand is the "plenty of people read them and don't like them" argument - what? If people buy and read comics that they don't like, then that's their own stupid fault, no-one asked them to. If i don't like something, i'll drop it by the next issue, i won't continue to spend money on something that i don't enjoy solely to complain about it on website forums.

For fear of losing a hand by interrupting this discussion, I'll just keep my interjection to a minimum and comment on this one part. I've read Morrison's work so I know that he tends to not tell stories in a linear fashion at times. What I find it does for individual stories is make them seem confusing and not make sense. Many times you have to sit down and read them as a whole to really get a feel for how everything is connected, how everything fits, and how it works. So for instance, I got back into Batman again with RIP and didn't like it. I thought it was too confusing, the clues didn't make sense, tried to hard to be clever and the reveal that the villian was the Devil just came out of nowhere. Then after I had all the issues, and went back and read Morrison's whole run on Batman the entire thing is just so clear and concise now that my enjoyment of it has really increased. Unfortunately that doesn't work with everything as I still find Final Crisis to be VERY sub-par work.

Anyway, this isn't an indictment on Morrison's writing, just some insight as to why I sometimes continue to buy his books.

[Sn4tcH]

If I may comment on the Morrison debate... It seems like you guys are coming to the same conclusion and yet refusing to accept the others opinion.

"Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but your opinion is wrong."

But at the same time I totally get it. For example, I despise the movie A Clockwork Orange, but I "get" the movie, I just don't enjoy it. I feel the same way with most of Kubricks work. But I totally understand how he is important cinema, and how is art is influential. It's not my taste, but I can understand why it is held in high regard.

This is the problem with Morrison. I think a lot of people can't accept the idea that despite them not liking something, that it doesn't make it bad. Kubrick is genious, a master of his art, I understand this, I simply don't like his work. I believe the same could be said for Morrison.

[Karl O'Neill]

WRONG!

Morrison is universally loved. lets face it. He makes us all want to write comics.

Okay I kid I kid.

Yes that flying batmobile was fxxking awesome.

I think Judd and benes might outdo it this week.

[Jorriss]

I like Morrison, he's fairly inconsistent so I wouldn't call him miles ahead of his peers but he's miles above the average comic book writer, but there are certainly many who can compete with him for solid storytelling.

[Sn4tcH]

Don't look at me, I stopped reading X-men when they started retconning everything Morrison did. In my canon, X-men ends with his run on New X-men. I love Morrison, maybe not his Final Crisis stuff so much, but his Batman run is amazing.

[Karl O'Neill]

I like Morrison, he's fairly inconsistent so I wouldn't call him miles ahead of his peers but he's miles above the average comic book writer, but there are certainly many who can compete with him for solid storytelling.

Start naming those writers and I will tackle them.Don't say fraction or hickman. Come back to me with these names in five years and we might discuss them as competition.

[Jorriss]

Start naming those writers and I will tackle them.Don't say fraction or hickman. Come back to me with these names in five years and we might discuss them as competition.
Nah, I don't really want to get into a debate over writers, but I don't find it unreasonable that Morrison could be considered the best I just don't think it's as unanimous as you claim. Plus, are you only talking DC comics? only batman? ever? What criteria you putting him against.

[Sn4tcH]

I think the Morrison should take the Ultimate X-men challenge!

Millar, Bendis, Vaughan, Kirkman. 4 great writers that could not make this book readable! CAN MORRISON DO IT!?

[dreyga2000]

I think the Morrison should take the Ultimate X-men challenge!

Millar, Bendis, Vaughan, Kirkman. 4 great writers that could not make this book readable! CAN MORRISON DO IT!?

UXM under Millar, Bendis, and Vaughhan was pure gold.... One of my all time favortie comic book series... That's until Kirkman came...


Kirkman is the man who single handedly killed this title.... Not to say he's a bad writer but his work on that title was by far the worst thing he has ever put out....

[Sn4tcH]

Agree to disagree, I always thought UXM was pretty bad.

[Quinnhop]

I think Judd and benes might outdo it this week.

They didn't.

But that's not to say they didn't do a good job. They did great.

It just wasn't better than B&R.

[Karl O'Neill]

They didn't.

But that's not to say they didn't do a good job. They did great.

It just wasn't better than B&R.

Any new villains?

sure just tell me in the batman thread:biggrin: :cool:

[Kylun123]

What i don't understand is the "plenty of people read them and don't like them" argument - what? If people buy and read comics that they don't like, then that's their own stupid fault

Dude . . . the point was that praise for Morrison isn't universal.


If I may comment on the Morrison debate... It seems like you guys are coming to the same conclusion and yet refusing to accept the others opinion.

"Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but your opinion is wrong."

I wish that's what this guy was saying . . . but he's not.

He's saying Morrison is objectively and universally accepted as being lightyears ahead of his peers . . . it's simply not true.

The fact that one might enjoy non-linear story telling is ok, but it isn't inherently "better". That's where style & opinion come in.


Start naming those writers and I will tackle them.Don't say fraction or hickman. Come back to me with these names in five years and we might discuss them as competition.

Off the top of my head. Ed Brubaker & Jason Aaron.

Aaron in particular. Everything that guy writes has been great, personally. And it's all straight forward, not gimmicky story telling.
Well, Scalped aside. I'm talking about his work in mainstream Marvel - Ghost Rider, Black Panther, Wolverine . . .

5 years from now I still expect Brubaker & Aaron to be highly regarded writers.

Now their style might be completely different to Morrison but it doesn't make it worse.
Again, "better" style is an opinion and therefore isn't universal/objective . . .

The proofs you make towards Morrison's sales seems not to hold bc we all now countless writers who sell books no matter what, and you wouldn't hail them as heads above their peers.


Anyhoo, a Morrison discussion can be had anywhere, and I guess the B & R thread isn't necessary for it. I enjoyed this book immensely. I defended it against that poor reviewer who simply wanted to rile up Morrison fans. I just took offense to the fact that your opinion is all of a sudden universal truth.

[Karl O'Neill]

yeah I was done with you a few posts back.

I can't resist saying this though. and I like aaron's work.

Show me a jason aaron comic with no curses in them:biggrin:

[Kylun123]

OK, I re-read Batman and Robin a couple of times.

I really don't get the whole interrogation of Toad.

1) Why was his info. enough, why didn't Dick try to get more out of him?
2) I assume from Dick's comments later, that Toad's jargon was "European Circus" . . . Is that the right assumption everyone else is making?
3) It seems awfully convenient that Dick's first adventure in the cape pits him against circus freaks . . . good thing to, how would Bruce have recognized the circus lingo . . .

[Karl O'Neill]

Freaks is the key word. Which is natural for BAT villains.

The circus part is a little convinient I agree.

It was the LINGO that gave dick all or everything he needed.

[Choppa]

OK, I re-read Batman and Robin a couple of times.

I really don't get the whole interrogation of Toad.

1) Why was his info. enough, why didn't Dick try to get more out of him?

It was, as you state yourself, the lingo that he uses that Dick recognizes and gets his lead.



2) I assume from Dick's comments later, that Toad's jargon was "European Circus" . . . Is that the right assumption everyone else is making?


No clue, sorry



3) It seems awfully convenient that Dick's first adventure in the cape pits him against circus freaks . . . good thing to, how would Bruce have recognized the circus lingo . . .

I'm not sure why pitting him against circus freaks makes it convenient. If you're referring to the fact that he might recognize the lingo, Bruce would most definitely have recognized the colloquialism, researched it, and come to the same conclusion.

[Choppa]

Here's my question: what happened to the end of RIP? At the end of Batman #681 we see Dick and Damien fly through the roof of Hurt's henchmen's lair, but nothing else after that.

Was that scene just put in as a sneak peak? It kind of seemed like the first thing that D&D do as B&R. I only bring this up becasue with Morrison everything seems to have a purpose in the grand scheme of things.

[NickFury90]

Here's my question: what happened to the end of RIP? At the end of Batman #681 we see Dick and Damien fly through the roof of Hurt's henchmen's lair, but nothing else after that.

Was that scene just put in as a sneak peak? It kind of seemed like the first thing that D&D do as B&R. I only bring this up becasue with Morrison everything seems to have a purpose in the grand scheme of things.

That seemed like a sneak peak at things to come, maybe when Hurt comes back into the story.

[kamikage]

Will the regular Batman title just show Grayson? What are going to be the differences between the Batman and B&R?

[Kiryu]

Will the regular Batman title just show Grayson? What are going to be the differences between the Batman and B&R?

The writing.

And any real development for the characters is likely to happen in B&R and be reflected in the other books, not vice versa.

[Choppa]

Will the regular Batman title just show Grayson? What are going to be the differences between the Batman and B&R?

There was an interview that explained it. I remember Winick said his book would feature mostly action and no detective stuff.

[dreyga2000]

"My book is going to be a little more introspective. It will be about Batman examining who he is. And what it means to wear the cowl."

"We’re talking three-issue arcs, four-issue arcs where it’s Batman whooping it up, kicking ass, getting his ass kicked and coming back and kicking some more ass. This is a superhero book and it’s one of the things that I enjoy. I mean, I do enjoy Batman as a masked detective but I myself enjoy Batman beating the living hell out of people in various ways, shapes and forms. I like him to mix it up. And we’ll be seeing that in spades."


-Judd Winnick





Take it for what you will....

[the Hornet]

Did it seem to anyone else that the Dick Grayson version of Batman appear to be more like the Nolan/Bale version in the recent movies?

1. The penthouse headquarters
2. Youthful appearance (I know Bale is in his mid 30s but he looks like he 25)
3. Gliding capes (about time too!)

If so, it probaply is intentional.

[Kiryu]

Did it seem to anyone else that the Dick Grayson version of Batman appear to be more like the Nolan/Bale version in the recent movies?

1. The penthouse headquarters
2. Youthful appearance (I know Bale is in his mid 30s but he looks like he 25)
3. Gliding capes (about time too!)

If so, it probaply is intentional.

Well, Morrison has been setting the penthouse up since the first Ghost of Batman arc with Kubrick. Bat's is taken there after the Bane/Batman replacement steps on his spine. Batman 665 as I recall.

Appearance wise, I dunno. The costumes are certainly nothing alike and well, Dick IS young. Attitude wise Bat-Dick and Bale-Bat have nearly nothing in common.

Paracapes? Well, maybe. It rocks either way though.

Fun thing about the Penthouse, the top has Bat-Ears and that depiction is consistent with how it appeared in Batman 665. Fun to see that level of care when covers of Dick in the Kubert-designed Bat-costume that is no longer being used are appearing everywhere.

[Scott Taylor]

I dunno. Morrison's Batman is alot more jovial than Nolan's Batman. Nolan seems to be going for the brooding Batman and Morrison seems to be going a bit more for the sixties Batman.

About time, imho. I'd sure like to see some departure from the Miller vision for the character.

[zur en arrh]

I think I'm missing something when people say that Morrison's Batman right now is campy, or a throwback to the 60's and whatnot. I just don't see it. Sure, he isn't writing Dick as dark as Bruce was in RIP, but he's certainly not campy so far.

[carabas]

Morrison't Batman isn't campy, but it most certainly likes to flirt with ideas from that long forgotten/ignored era.

[Scott Taylor]

Not to say its campy, more that Morrison injects a sense of humor in his Batman stories. They aren't all grit with no fun.

[zur en arrh]

I see.

Well I've seen some people on this forum, I think even in the earlier pages of this thread though I may be mistaken, claim that Morrison's Batman and Robin is much in the same vain as the Adam West television program. Which is the definition of camp.

I just couldn't fathom the statement. But I do see that Morrison is taking a lighter approach with this run, especially compared to his previous run.

[dreyga2000]

I see.

Well I've seen some people on this forum, I think even in the earlier pages of this thread though I may be mistaken, claim that Morrison's Batman and Robin is much in the same vain as the Adam West television program. Which is the definition of camp.

I just couldn't fathom the statement. But I do see that Morrison is taking a lighter approach with this run, especially compared to his previous run.

Morrision himelf said he was trying to reincorpate the feel of the Adam West Bat Show with elements of serious horror like a David Lynch Movie...





It was taking that aspect of the Batman TV show and then trying it in with David Lynch and Twin Peaks. [laughs] And creepy European cartoons and marionettes and stuff like that. That bad dreamlike feeling of a Marilyn Manson video in the '90s, or like Chris Cunningham's video for 'Windowlicker'. [laughs] Again, it was about trying to fuse those two things together into a bad trip, Lewis Carroll kind of world. I realize I give a massive, long answer every time we speak, Dan. But that was kind of what obsessed me about Batman and Robin going into it – to take these weird elements and marry them together to see what we could get.


-Grant Morrison

[Kylun123]

Yea, it's only been one issue but I can feel "camp". I think that term is often used to be derogative, but doesn't necessarily need to be so. It's also a word that can be hard to define, and people have different limits of what does or does not constitute camp.

For me the part that sticks out is Grayson being familiar with European circus slang (I know I just mentioned that earlier in the thread) . . . it's just so convenient and reminds me of having a handy, dandy spray can of marine animal repellant when attacked by sharks . . .

[carabas]

I see.

Well I've seen some people on this forum, I think even in the earlier pages of this thread though I may be mistaken, claim that Morrison's Batman and Robin is much in the same vain as the Adam West television program.Well, occasionally some people on this forum say a lot of dumb stuff.

[Choppa]

Did it seem to anyone else that the Dick Grayson version of Batman appear to be more like the Nolan/Bale version in the recent movies?

1. The penthouse headquarters
2. Youthful appearance (I know Bale is in his mid 30s but he looks like he 25)
3. Gliding capes (about time too!)

If so, it probaply is intentional.

No, the penthouse was done back in the 70's. If anything the movies borrowed that from the book. Appearance wise he looks like whoever is drawing him so that's hard to say. And he's had gliding capes before. Morrison has selective amnesia when it comes to continuity.

[zur en arrh]

Morrision himelf said he was trying to reincorpate the feel of the Adam West Bat Show with elements of serious horror like a David Lynch Movie...





It was taking that aspect of the Batman TV show and then trying it in with David Lynch and Twin Peaks. [laughs] And creepy European cartoons and marionettes and stuff like that. That bad dreamlike feeling of a Marilyn Manson video in the '90s, or like Chris Cunningham's video for 'Windowlicker'. [laughs] Again, it was about trying to fuse those two things together into a bad trip, Lewis Carroll kind of world. I realize I give a massive, long answer every time we speak, Dan. But that was kind of what obsessed me about Batman and Robin going into it – to take these weird elements and marry them together to see what we could get.


-Grant Morrison

I guess I see where the comparison came from now :redface:

[carabas]

Morrision himelf said he was trying to reincorpate the feel of the Adam West Bat Show with elements of serious horror like a David Lynch Movie...


It was taking that aspect of the Batman TV show
Do you have a more complete quot (or link) to see what aspect exactly he is talking about?

[DWEarhart]

As a Batman fan of nearly 30 years - and having given up superhero comics these past couple of years - - I loved this first issue. It was a modernised take on the campiness of the 60's tv show enacted through the humbling chemistry that existed in the Silver Age.

Alfred gets to be a butler again with Damian, and he gets to refreshen his mentoring with Grayson.

Alfred still deserves his own mini-series, or at least a backup feature somewhere that discusses his past.

I enjoyed how the introduction of Pyg was constructed.

[midnight138]

For me the part that sticks out is Grayson being familiar with European circus slang (I know I just mentioned that earlier in the thread) . . . it's just so convenient and reminds me of having a handy, dandy spray can of marine animal repellant when attacked by sharks . . .

It actually made sense to me the instant I read it. The Graysons were circus performers, it would stand to reason that Dick would have run into European circus performers and would know circus slang.

[numberONE]

midnight138, that's what I thought, too.

[AJM]

midnight138, that's what I thought, too.

Me three. I didn't see anything 'convenient' about it all.

[Kylun123]

It actually made sense to me the instant I read it. The Graysons were circus performers, it would stand to reason that Dick would have run into European circus performers and would know circus slang.


midnight138, that's what I thought, too.


Me three. I didn't see anything 'convenient' about it all.

Thanks guys . . . the "convenient" thing is that Grayson's very first case on the job he happens to run into a pack of circus freaks and he gets a clue out of his brief interrogation with the toad bc he happens to come from a circus family. It would be completely random if the Toad/Pyg were adversaries for any other hero . . . but convenient that they're up against a Flying Grayson . . .

[midnight138]

Ah, I see what you're getting at now, Kylun123. In that way it was almost like Grant Morrison's "Bat Shark Repelant" rather than Dick's! Morrison used it as something to illustrate right off the bat that there would be situations where Dick would be more suited to the case than Bruce, therefore making him seem more than just "replacement Batman". This villain, the first Dick's faced as Batman, just so happens to conveniently be suited for the new Batman more than the old!

[lead sharp]

It's just not my Batman or Robin, I couldn't work up the interest in what felt like an elseworlds story gone wrong and knowing that Frank Quietly is only there for three issues (according to a report somewhere) doesn't help.

Mind you his design for the red hood is the single most offencive thing I've ever seen so I don't think I'm going to be missing this.

Still, better than ASBAR.

[Zeraze]

Coincidence has always played a big part in hero/villain confrontations, so this circus slang thing doesn't take anything away, for me.

[midnight138]

Mind you his design for the red hood is the single most offencive thing I've ever seen so I don't think I'm going to be missing this.



Really? I've seen more offensive stuff in the past HOUR!

....you must not surf the net much.

Red Hood looks more like a giant tube of lipstick than the....you know....that many people have accused him of being.

I do agree with the disappointment that Quitely is only on for the first arc. Did I read somewhere that he's coming back for another set of issues down the line, though? I thought I did, but it could just be wishful thinking.

[Jake V]

It's just not my Batman or Robin, I couldn't work up the interest in what felt like an elseworlds story gone wrong and knowing that Frank Quietly is only there for three issues (according to a report somewhere) doesn't help.

Mind you his design for the red hood is the single most offencive thing I've ever seen so I don't think I'm going to be missing this.

You must not leave the house very often.

[Phantom Druid]

Dug it. Pyg is ghoulish. This issue went from "cool as hell" to "creepy as hell" real quick. Love the dynamic. Damien is a testy little guy, this should be interesting.

[numberONE]

Ah, I see what you're getting at now, Kylun123. In that way it was almost like Grant Morrison's "Bat Shark Repelant" rather than Dick's! Morrison used it as something to illustrate right off the bat that there would be situations where Dick would be more suited to the case than Bruce, therefore making him seem more than just "replacement Batman". This villain, the first Dick's faced as Batman, just so happens to conveniently be suited for the new Batman more than the old!

Good observation. I missed that.



I do agree with the disappointment that Quitely is only on for the first arc. Did I read somewhere that he's coming back for another set of issues down the line, though? I thought I did, but it could just be wishful thinking.

It's not just wishful thinking - Quitely will be back for the last three issues, plus, it looks like he'll be doing the cover art for all 12 issues.

[numberONE]

Ah, I see what you're getting at now, Kylun123. In that way it was almost like Grant Morrison's "Bat Shark Repelant" rather than Dick's! Morrison used it as something to illustrate right off the bat that there would be situations where Dick would be more suited to the case than Bruce, therefore making him seem more than just "replacement Batman". This villain, the first Dick's faced as Batman, just so happens to conveniently be suited for the new Batman more than the old!

Good observation. I missed that.



I do agree with the disappointment that Quitely is only on for the first arc. Did I read somewhere that he's coming back for another set of issues down the line, though? I thought I did, but it could just be wishful thinking.

It's not just wishful thinking - Quitely will be back for the last three issues, plus, it looks like he'll be doing the cover art for all 12 issues.

[numberONE]

Ah, I see what you're getting at now, Kylun123. In that way it was almost like Grant Morrison's "Bat Shark Repelant" rather than Dick's! Morrison used it as something to illustrate right off the bat that there would be situations where Dick would be more suited to the case than Bruce, therefore making him seem more than just "replacement Batman". This villain, the first Dick's faced as Batman, just so happens to conveniently be suited for the new Batman more than the old!

Good observation. I missed that.



I do agree with the disappointment that Quitely is only on for the first arc. Did I read somewhere that he's coming back for another set of issues down the line, though? I thought I did, but it could just be wishful thinking.

It's not just wishful thinking - Quitely will be back for the last three issues, plus, it looks like he'll be doing the cover art for all 12 issues.

[gocryemokid]

I got a question for you guys

How do you pronounce Pyg's name? I've heard it pronounced like "pig" but also like the word "pie" while adding a "g" sound to the end of it without adding any syllables (like pieg, long "I" sound like in fly or high etc.)

I kind of go back and forth with it and am wondering how you guys say it?

[nepenthes]

^ it's an abbreviation of Pygmalion, from a myth a play and a movie, which I'm pretty sure is pronounced pig. i say pig

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_(mythology)

[Kylun123]

Morrison used it as something to illustrate right off the bat that there would be situations where Dick would be more suited to the case than Bruce . . .

Could be . . . I didn't see it that way . . . and I've found Morrison to often include such plot devices that are almost too easy.

It doesn't take much away from the plot, and if you focus on anybody's stories you can find criticisms, but that's just one that gets to me a little bit.


How do you pronounce Pyg's name?

The guy's got a pig face, how can you pronounce it any differently . . . :smile:

[AJM]

Thanks guys . . . the "convenient" thing is that Grayson's very first case on the job he happens to run into a pack of circus freaks and he gets a clue out of his brief interrogation with the toad bc he happens to come from a circus family. It would be completely random if the Toad/Pyg were adversaries for any other hero . . . but convenient that they're up against a Flying Grayson . . .

And conveniently Bruce Wayne was the son of a billionaire... what's your point? It's called a 'plot device' and it's what make stories happen.

[Choppa]

Why is it that people seem to have forgotten that Batman is a detective? He clearly would have taken note of the unique words that Pyg uses, researched them, and come to the same conclusion as Dick. He just wouldn't have the knowledge off hand.

[Kylun123]

And conveniently Bruce Wayne was the son of a billionaire... what's your point? It's called a 'plot device' and it's what make stories happen.

It's called a deus ex machina - "a plot device in which a person or thing appears "out of the blue" to help a character to overcome a seemingly insolvable difficulty"

Although admittedly this instance wasn't "seemingly insolvable" it was pretty convenient.

It also happens to be a plot device I noticed recently in some of other Morrison's other works. Specifically Rock of Ages which I was reading for the first time a couple months back. And I'll quote my brother's rendition of the events:
well they were lost in time and space, and had no way to get back home
but hey, what are the odds? this random world thing appeared and found them and had no purpose but to give them the ability to get home
it was hopeless, but then something new appeared suddenly and solved all of their problems.


If this were written by a less-talented writer it would be considered poor story telling. But because Morrison succeeds in different ways of making a compelling story he often isn't criticized about his poor mechanics.



Also, I think the example of Bruce Wayne being born to millionaires doesn't apply. For one reason, the poor kid in the projects whose parents were killed doesn't become a super hero and doesn't sell a comic book . . . I think there's a distinct difference there, although I may be wrong.

[Kylun123]

Why is it that people seem to have forgotten that Batman is a detective?

Nobody's forgotten that . . . it's just not as relevant.

Dick is holding Toad upside down, gets one sentence out of him and decides thats enough b/c he already knows what it means.

Bruce would hold Toad upside down, keep trying to get more out of him, Toad wouldn't talk, and then Bruce would go him with the little info. he had and do his research.

Sure, both would get to the same conclusion . . . but it's still uber-convenient.

I think one redeeming factor could be a lot of talk I heard recently (I think it was on one of the blogs here relating Superman's & Batman's villains) that a good villain is somebody who is genuinely opposite of the hero.

And Morrison could be building a foe here to combat Dick that is sincerely similar yet evidently evil . . . some play off of that.

Or it could just be stam, he came up with a creepy villain and he happened to be circus-related and no thought of Grayson's circus background had been taken into consideration when creating the character . . . that could be too, it just didn't strike me that way.

[AJM]

It's called a deus ex machina - "a plot device in which a person or thing appears "out of the blue" to help a character to overcome a seemingly insolvable difficulty"

Although admittedly this instance wasn't "seemingly insolvable" it was pretty convenient.

It also happens to be a plot device I noticed recently in some of other Morrison's other works. Specifically Rock of Ages which I was reading for the first time a couple months back. And I'll quote my brother's rendition of the events:
well they were lost in time and space, and had no way to get back home
but hey, what are the odds? this random world thing appeared and found them and had no purpose but to give them the ability to get home
it was hopeless, but then something new appeared suddenly and solved all of their problems.


If this were written by a less-talented writer it would be considered poor story telling. But because Morrison succeeds in different ways of making a compelling story he often isn't criticized about his poor mechanics.



Also, I think the example of Bruce Wayne being born to millionaires doesn't apply. For one reason, the poor kid in the projects whose parents were killed doesn't become a super hero and doesn't sell a comic book . . . I think there's a distinct difference there, although I may be wrong.

Thanks, but i know what 'deus ex machina' means, and this isn't it. Dick used his knowledge to deduce Toad's background, there was nothing 'out of the blue' about it. As others have pointed out, Morrison is using this particular device to illustrate how Dick differs from Bruce.

[Kylun123]

As others have pointed out, Morrison is using this particular device to illustrate how Dick differs from Bruce.

. . . So the way he differs is that he has a circus background whereas Bruce has a wealthy kid background . . . and to illustrate that point he created a circus character . . . That's the difference between DIck & Bruce, and how they go about their business??

Personally, a more effective way to demonstrate those differences (if that is in fact what Morrison was trying to do) would be to put Dick in a very similar situation to one Bruce would be in yet show him react and plan differently, with a different perspective.
The fact that he knew circus slang off-hand and didn't have to google it doesn't represent and define a difference between the 2 Batmen . . .

[Choppa]

I don't see how it's "uberconvenient" for Dick, if the only extra work Bruce would do in that scenario is interrogate Toad for another minute or two.

[AJM]

. . . So the way he differs is that he has a circus background whereas Bruce has a wealthy kid background . . . and to illustrate that point he created a circus character . . . That's the difference between DIck & Bruce, and how they go about their business??

Personally, a more effective way to demonstrate those differences (if that is in fact what Morrison was trying to do) would be to put Dick in a very similar situation to one Bruce would be in yet show him react and plan differently, with a different perspective.
The fact that he knew circus slang off-hand and didn't have to google it doesn't represent and define a difference between the 2 Batmen . . .

You're right. Maybe you should write it - have you contacted DC?

[Kiryu]

. . . So the way he differs is that he has a circus background whereas Bruce has a wealthy kid background . . . and to illustrate that point he created a circus character . . . That's the difference between DIck & Bruce, and how they go about their business??

Personally, a more effective way to demonstrate those differences (if that is in fact what Morrison was trying to do) would be to put Dick in a very similar situation to one Bruce would be in yet show him react and plan differently, with a different perspective.
The fact that he knew circus slang off-hand and didn't have to google it doesn't represent and define a difference between the 2 Batmen . . .

Mountain out an an ant-hill if you ask me. Dick knowing or at least being familiar enough to recognize European circus slang is completely within the realm of reason for someone raised in a circus. And as I recall, didn't Dick own a circus once?

It's a McGuffin, its no different then a problem with Kryptonian origins landing in Metropolis.

If your issue is with the fact that the new villains in Gotham have Circus ties well...everyone of Batman's rogue's is a mentally disturbed whack-job.

And y'know, the entire scene including Dick knowing circus slang illustrates the difference between Dick and Bruce better then any scene in any Bat-Book since he has assumed the mantle. The carefree attitude he takes interogating Toad, casually letting him go after just hearing a familiar phrase.

[carabas]

I don't see how it's "uberconvenient" for Dick, if the only extra work Bruce would do in that scenario is interrogate Toad for another minute or two.
And it's not as if Bruce wouldn't be familiar with that slang as well. He was familiar with pretty much every form of slang or dialect or language even in existance.

[Jorriss]

I think his problem is that its highly convenient this circus villain comes around right when the new Batman happens to have a circus background. Which is true, personally doesnt bother me, but it is convenient.

[Kylun123]

Mountain out an an ant-hill if you ask me. Dick knowing or at least being familiar enough to recognize European circus slang is completely within the realm of reason.

It's a McGuffin, its no different then a problem with Kryptonian origins landing in Metropolis.

If your issue is with the fact that the new villains in Gotham have Circus ties well...everyone of Batman's rogue's is a mentally disturbed whack-job.

Could be . . . I'm not building the mountain though.

I generally enjoy Morrison's work, and loved the heck out of the first issue.
It was only an observation on my point, and it could be completely off base . . . but it was still my reaction after having read the story.

Could be a Mcguffin, but I think my feelings are pointed towards your last remark.
The circus ties. If the villain had circus ties and Dick didn't have any additional insight then yes, that would be weird. But it still strikes me as . . . coincidental that Dick's first case after donning the cowl is against the circus . . . maybe more will be developed and the Flying Graysons will actually have a connection to Pyg somewhere in their past. Maybe not.
Like Pyg could've been a freaky creep who makes dolls but not have been related to the circus by any means. So the fact that he is strikes me as being relevant.

[Jake V]

Also, I think the example of Bruce Wayne being born to millionaires doesn't apply. For one reason, the poor kid in the projects whose parents were killed doesn't become a super hero and doesn't sell a comic book . . . I think there's a distinct difference there, although I may be wrong.

I guess you've never heard of Spider-Man.

[Kylun123]

I think his problem is that its highly convenient this circus villain comes around right when the new Batman happens to have a circus background. Which is true, personally doesnt bother me, but it is convenient.

Exactly.

Personally, doesn't bother me either. Just pointed it out is all . . .


I guess you've never heard of Spider-Man.

no . . . I haven't . . . is that a DC super-hero or a Marvel character?

[Kiryu]

Could be . . . I'm not building the mountain though.

Actually, you are, by harping about it



I generally enjoy Morrison's work, and loved the heck out of the first issue.
It was only an observation on my point, and it could be completely off base . . . but it was still my reaction after having read the story.

I really don't even see ground for this. Dick was IN the circus. He OWNED a circus. That he may have come across or been exposed to European circus folk is not a deus ex machina, it's a reasonable plot point.




Could be a Mcguffin, but I think my feelings are pointed towards your last remark.
The circus ties. If the villain had circus ties and Dick didn't have any additional insight then yes, that would be weird. But it still strikes me as . . . coincidental that Dick's first case after donning the cowl is against the circus . . . maybe more will be developed and the Flying Graysons will actually have a connection to Pyg somewhere in their past. Maybe not.
Like Pyg could've been a freaky creep who makes dolls but not have been related to the circus by any means. So the fact that he is strikes me as being relevant.

Mcguffin, certainly not an "Impossible solution to an impossible problem".

And y'know the Pyg, the Dolls, the Circus of Strange? Established in Batman 666. If you want to be hung up because the first villains Dick happens across have Circus ties(And as I bolded I hope to high hell they aren't related to the flying Graysons, please please) then that's on you. It's not "people overlooking the fact that Morrison isn't a good writer" it's just not a big deal.

And I really don't understand what you mean in the last bit. The group of villains is the Circus of Strange. They operate in an abandoned carnival. Of course they have ties to the circus. But ties to Dick's specific circus? That would be the sort of "overly convient bullshit" you're complaining about, not the fact that Dick has a familiarity with certain types of slang that were maybe used where he lived.

[Kylun123]

Actually, you are, by harping about it

No . . . I'm not . . .


I really don't even see ground for this. Dick was IN the circus. He OWNED a circus. That he may have come across or been exposed to European circus folk is not a deus ex machina, it's a reasonable plot point.

I see I may have used the wrong terminology with Deus Ex Machina as it wasn't that specific plot device that was convenient.


And y'know the Pyg, the Dolls, the Circus of Strange? Established in Batman 666.

Sounds like I need to re-read #666.
Although, I hope you recognize that you're the first person to raise that point. If it was introduced back then, then I suppose I have an answer to my curiosity.

[Kiryu]

Sounds like I need to re-read #666.
Although, I hope you recognize that you're the first person to raise that point. If it was introduced back then, then I suppose I have an answer to my curiosity.

Yeah, I re-read it when B&R came back. The Dolltrons, Pyg, and Phosphorus Rex are all mentioned and killed. So these characters were waiting in the wings for Morrison to use long before RIP/BftC etc etc

[Kylun123]

Yeah, I re-read it when B&R came back. The Dolltrons, Pyg, and Phosphorus Rex are all mentioned and killed. So these characters were waiting in the wings for Morrison to use long before RIP/BftC etc etc

That's awesome.

With the one caveat being when introduced how much farther down the line did Morrison have Bruce's tale envisioned.

Did he introduce the doll-trons & Pyg specifically bc he wanted to use them against Dicks Batman?

I'm not on the convenient-soapbox anymore, but rather what are his deeper intentions for this foe with this batman than simply randomized/and simply circus ties.

Presumably, Morrison's story will have multiple layers. And all these questions will be answered. And more.

Thanks for the dialogue, hope I didn't ruffle too many feathers around here.

[Kiryu]

That's awesome.

With the one caveat being when introduced how much farther down the line did Morrison have Bruce's tale envisioned.

Did he introduce the doll-trons & Pyg specifically bc he wanted to use them against Dicks Batman?

I'm not on the convenient-soapbox anymore, but rather what are his deeper intentions for this foe with this batman than simply randomized/and simply circus ties.

Presumably, Morrison's story will have multiple layers. And all these questions will be answered. And more.

Thanks for the dialogue, hope I didn't ruffle too many feathers around here.


Well, it seems to me that RIP was always going to end with Bruce MIA before Didio got all hot and bothered by the "RIP" title of Bruce's story and decided to push his "death" into Final Crisis. And Damian mentions in Batman #666 "I could never be as good a Batman as my father or Dick Grayson" so it seems to me that Grant has a pretty tight outline for where he wants this to go.

As for the circus thing, he says in all his interviews that he wants to illustrate a variety of cases with the new Batman and how in some cases, Dick being under the cowl is going to work very very well. I expect here, with the Circus of Strange, we might see that. There will also be times where it doesn't work out so well.

[numberONE]

Well, it seems to me that RIP was always going to end with Bruce MIA before Didio got all hot and bothered by the "RIP" title of Bruce's story and decided to push his "death" into Final Crisis. And Damian mentions in Batman #666 "I could never be as good a Batman as my father or Dick Grayson" so it seems to me that Grant has a pretty tight outline for where he wants this to go.


So it was DiDio's idea to have Batman die in Final Crisis?

[carabas]

So it was DiDio's idea to have Batman die in Final Crisis?Yes. Well, not actually die as we saw him alive but stranded in the past, but it was Didio's idea to tie Morrison's Batman run into Final Crisis.

[AJM]

Yes. Well, not actually die as we saw him alive but stranded in the past, but it was Didio's idea to tie Morrison's Batman run into Final Crisis.

Where did you read this?

[numberONE]

I'm curious, too.

[Captain Jim]

Will the regular Batman title just show Grayson? What are going to be the differences between the Batman and B&R?

I think this is the primary distinction. The regular Batman book is supposed to be more of a solo title.


Where did you read this?

It was in one of the many Morrison interviews that has been referenced here numerous times over the last several months.


When Dan (Didio) heard the R.I.P. title he asked me if it could lead us into the ‘death of Batman’ which he’d planned to occur in Final Crisis, so I made sure the Batman title and Final Crisis reached this particular endpoint at the same time and created a bridge between the two books.

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/010928-Grant-Final-Crisis.html

[carabas]

Nevermind, the Captain's already got it, more complete with a link even.

[AJM]

That's a real shame. Morrison's whole Batman run has been damaged by this - that big, five-volume idea will now have to be six. But i wonder if it'll read smoothly when we get to the third arc in Batman And Robin, which seems to about what happened to Bruce. It looks as though we could jump straight from R.I.P. to B&R... although the two bridging issues were absolutely brilliant, so it's not all bad.

[numberONE]

I think this is the primary distinction. The regular Batman book is supposed to be more of a solo title.



It was in one of the many Morrison interviews that has been referenced here numerous times over the last several months.



http://www.newsarama.com/comics/010928-Grant-Final-Crisis.html

Ah, so it was Didio's idea to kill Batman, not Morrison. I'm a little confused...how does Final Crisis fit in with Batman R.I.P.? Does FC happen after Batman blows-up in the 'helicopter?


That's a real shame. Morrison's whole Batman run has been damaged by this - that big, five-volume idea will now have to be six. But i wonder if it'll read smoothly when we get to the third arc in Batman And Robin, which seems to about what happened to Bruce. It looks as though we could jump straight from R.I.P. to B&R... although the two bridging issues were absolutely brilliant, so it's not all bad.

So, R.I.P. is one volume of the six volumes, FC is another, and so is B&R. What are the three other parts?

[carabas]

That's a real shame. Morrison's whole Batman run has been damaged by this - that big, five-volume idea will now have to be six.Only i you want it to be.
R.I.P. ends with Bruce Wayne being missing. Sure, he shows up again in time for Final Crisis, wher he goes missing again, but Final Crisis is missable. You can just go from the ent of R.I.P. to the first isue of Batman & Robin.

[AJM]

Only i you want it to be.
R.I.P. ends with Bruce Wayne being missing. Sure, he shows up again in time for Final Crisis, wher he goes missing again, but Final Crisis is missable. You can just go from the ent of R.I.P. to the first isue of Batman & Robin.

...except that the two Last Rites issues were included in the the R.I.P. trade.

[carabas]

Well, editorial ****-ups like that are out of control of the writer. Best laid plans and all...
It was written in a way that the Final Crisis bits are completely skippable.

I wonder, did they bother to incluse Superman Beyond in the Final Crisis trade?

[AJM]

I wonder, did they bother to incluse Superman Beyond in the Final Crisis trade?

They did, yes, although i don't think it was in 3D but i could be wrong, i didn't buy it. It also includes another of the tie-ins that Morrison wrote, can't remember what it was called.

[Kiryu]

Ah, so it was Didio's idea to kill Batman, not Morrison. I'm a little confused...how does Final Crisis fit in with Batman R.I.P.? Does FC happen after Batman blows-up in the 'helicopter?



So, R.I.P. is one volume of the six volumes, FC is another, and so is B&R. What are the three other parts?

The five book volume still stands I think. Even in his new interviews Morrison still calls it his "Big epic" that should end up as 5 collected volumes.

So we have

Book 1: Batman and Son
Book 2: The Black Glove
Book 3: Batman RIP
Book 4: Batman and Robin

[AJM]

The five book volume still stands I think. Even in his new interviews Morrison still calls it his "Big epic" that should end up as 5 collected volumes.

So we have

Book 1: Batman and Son
Book 2: The Black Glove
Book 3: Batman RIP
Book 4: Batman and Robin

Yes, but i think the point is that you'll also need Final Crisis to get the whole story, so it really ends up as six volumes (presuming there's another one after Batman And Robin, which i think has been pretty much confirmed).

[carabas]

They did, yes, although i don't think it was in 3D but i could be wrong, i didn't buy it. It also includes another of the tie-ins that Morrison wrote, can't remember what it was called.
Well, at least they didn't totally botch it then.
Damn. If those SB issues are not in annoying 3D, I might get that book despite owning all the singles.

[Kiryu]

Well, at least they didn't totally botch it then.
Damn. If those SB issues are not in annoying 3D, I might get that book despite owning all the singles.

They are not in 3D in the Final Crisis hardcover. It has Final Crisis 1-7, Superman Beyond 1-2(Not in 3d) and Final Crisis: Submit.

AJM brings up an interesting point though, for the final arc of this years B&R, being about what happened to Bruce, I wonder how much of a role FC will play.

Another curious thing, if Batman and Robin is 12 issues that means DC will split it up into two trades, no?

[numberONE]

I never read Final Crisis, while it was coming out. So when I picked-up the hardcover last week (really nice book, BTW - probably the best looking I've seen from DC), it was the first time I read it. I found the Superman Beyond stories very confusing and distracting from the main plot.

[AJM]

They are not in 3D in the Final Crisis hardcover. It has Final Crisis 1-7, Superman Beyond 1-2(Not in 3d) and Final Crisis: Submit.

AJM brings up an interesting point though, for the final arc of this years B&R, being about what happened to Bruce, I wonder how much of a role FC will play.

Another curious thing, if Batman and Robin is 12 issues that means DC will split it up into two trades, no?

They probably will for commercial reasons, yes - get the first six in a trade while the final six are still in circulation, like they did with All Star Superman. I'd prefer they waited and did a twelve issue trade but that doesn't make as much business sense. I don't think this will make a difference to to overall 'fifth volume' idea though, Morrison has hinted before that he'd be returning to the main Batman monthly when Bruce returns.

[NickFury90]

I never read Final Crisis, while it was coming out. So when I picked-up the hardcover last week (really nice book, BTW - probably the best looking I've seen from DC), it was the first time I read it. I found the Superman Beyond stories very confusing and distracting from the main plot.

I finally read Final Crisis all in one sitting today, and to be honest the only things that really confused me a bit was Superman Beyond. It'll make more sense on a second re-read, I'm sure. The actual event was...kinda straight-forward actually. Like...I don't know why everybody was so confused by everything.

And even then, you really don't need FC to understand the current Batman stories. Everybody thinks Batman is "dead" one way(going down with Hurt) or the other(Darkseid's Omega Sanction).

'cept Alfred. He knows the deal.

[Captain Jim]

I'm a little confused...how does Final Crisis fit in with Batman R.I.P.?

Batman #676, (JLA #21), FC #1, Batman #677-678, (Robin #175-176), Batman #679-681, (Requiem #1), FC #2, Batman #682-683, FC #6-7.

Issues in parenthesis are optional and do not need to be read, but demonstrate the correct continuity. FC#3-5 obviously fall between 2 and 6, but do not reference Batman.

If you're not reading FC, you shouldn't read Batman #682-683, as they make no sense outside of the FC context. They never should have been included in the RIP collected editions; they should have been included with FC.

[Samy]

Finally got around to reading #1, and I'm pleased to say that I've finally found another Grant Morrison book that I enjoyed (in addition to JLA). It's good to see him put the crack pipe down for a while and just tell a story, because when he does that, he can produce a quite polished and solid piece of work.

Even Frank Quitely whose faces I often find to be very ugly, turns in better work than I'm used to from him.

I thought the issue was a little light on content though, but I suppose that could be because I read this on the heels of L3W which was the epitome of the detail-packed comic book, so after that, I suppose any comic would feel kind of sparse. I'll give this at least the first arc to see if the new status quo grows some flesh around its bones. Right now Morrison has set up a pretty sturdy, solid skeleton of a framework, the challenge ahead is to see if he can do the work to develop that into a rich texture.

[Armadillo]

Read it on sunday, and today re-read it. It was good, really good actually. but it's always hard to review something of it's first issue.