Legion of Super -Heroes

[Paladin573]

Is there any news on the relaunch Legion of Super -Heroes?

Really really enjoyed Jim Shooter's LSH to bad it ended.

[Matthew E]

There is no relaunch of Legion of Super-Heroes on the horizon.

Some Legionnaires will appear in the backup stories in the upcoming Adventure title, or so we're told. Mon-El and Tellus are appearing in Superman these days. There's R.E.B.E.L.S., which is decent and not entirely unrelated to the Legion. And there have been a couple of quiet rumours that there may be some kind of Legion action way down the road, but nothing we can hang our hats on.

For now, it looks like we're out of luck after FC:L3W #5 comes out, which will probably be sometime before Easter.

[Paladin573]

There is no relaunch of Legion of Super-Heroes on the horizon.

Some Legionnaires will appear in the backup stories in the upcoming Adventure title, or so we're told. Mon-El and Tellus are appearing in Superman these days. There's R.E.B.E.L.S., which is decent and not entirely unrelated to the Legion. And there have been a couple of quiet rumours that there may be some kind of Legion action way down the road, but nothing we can hang our hats on.

For now, it looks like we're out of luck after FC:L3W #5 comes out, which will probably be sometime before Easter.

Thanks for response. I have been searching for something and came up empty...I really wanted something to hang my hat on...

[strathcona]

I thought Adventure was going to be a LSH title. I am disappointed to find out otherwise. I am enjoying R.E.B.E.L.S. but I want some regular Legion stories too!

[DonC]

Some Legionnaires will appear in the backup stories in the upcoming Adventure title, or so we're told.


And somewhere Dan DiDio is screaming the word "co-features." :wink:

[_OM_]

And somewhere Dan DiDio is screaming the word "co-features." :wink:

...And everywhere Legion fans are screaming "Dan Didio *MUST* Die!"

[FanboyStranger]

The idea of the Legion 'co-features' in Adventure, as I understand it, is to gauge interest and set the groundwork for a new Legion series, presumably starring whatever permutation of the Legion is left after Legion of Three Worlds. There has been no official announcement about a new Legion book, though.

[KandouErik]

Yeah - Aventure Comics is basicly just the new Legion book. It's going to be shared with Superboy, which is a nice harkening back to the past, where the Legion began appearing in Superboy's book: Aventure Comics.

[Matthew E]

The idea of the Legion 'co-features' in Adventure, as I understand it, is to gauge interest and set the groundwork for a new Legion series, presumably starring whatever permutation of the Legion is left after Legion of Three Worlds.

Could be... but to the best of my knowledge DC hasn't said so.


Yeah - Adventure Comics is basicly just the new Legion book. It's going to be shared with Superboy, which is a nice harkening back to the past, where the Legion began appearing in Superboy's book: Adventure Comics.

Except that Superboy gets twenty-odd pages, the Legion gets eight, and the Legion isn't even going to appear as a group for the first I don't know how many issues. If that's your idea of sharing, it isn't mine, and it certainly doesn't qualify Adventure as a Legion book for me. Co-feature, my aunt's second-best feather duster; it's a freaking backup.

[Desaad]

No doubt in my mind, the Legion will be launching out of the 2010 event brewing in the Superman books.

It's all been boiling under the surface for a bit now, in JSA, and now in Robinson's Superman book, and coming up in Adventure Comics. 2010 will be the big Supes 'event' of the year, and from that will launch a Legion book, definitely.

Who will be on it? I don't know. I'm hoping JMS, but I certainly don't actually know.

[KYLeo71]

And it seems like DC is really going out of its way to tie the retroboot Legion back into mainstream DCU continuity. Superman's history with the Legion is back in, Tellus is being featured in a subplot in Superman, Mon-El is the co-lead of Superman (which occurs *before* his long-long Legion tenure); and Starman has been a popular member of JSA (and is still here in the past). Also, I really have a strange feeling that, at some point, Supergirl is going to get paid a visit soon by 3 girl Legionaires in Silver Age dress and be offered Legion membership (putting her entire membership in the pre-Crisis Legion back into continuity even though none of it has happened to Kara yet). What with Adventure ahead on the horizon, I think 2010 could be the year of the Legion.

[Desaad]

And it seems like DC is really going out of its way to tie the retroboot Legion back into mainstream DCU continuity. Superman's history with the Legion is back in, Tellus is being featured in a subplot in Superman, Mon-El is the co-lead of Superman (which occurs *before* his long-long Legion tenure); and Starman has been a popular member of JSA (and is still here in the past). Also, I really have a strange feeling that, at some point, Supergirl is going to get paid a visit soon by 3 girl Legionaires in Silver Age dress and be offered Legion membership (putting her entire membership in the pre-Crisis Legion back into continuity even though none of it has happened to Kara yet). What with Adventure ahead on the horizon, I think 2010 could be the year of the Legion.

Reading various interviews by Geoff Johns, and looking at his body of "Legion" related work, it's clear that Geoff Johns believes that the key to a successful Legion is tying it tightly to modern day continuity. There are LOADS of references to 20th century stuff - and even travel back to that period - in almost every Legion related story Johns has written so far.

This is a fundamental disconnect from what made the Legion so popular in the 70s and 80s, where new ideas, new characters, new villains, new worlds and an ever evolving, changing status quo were the hallmarks of Legion continuity. Yeah, you'd occasionally get a "Great Darkness Saga" or a reference to DC mythology, and of course Superman and Supergirl were important aspects of the book, but it was fundamentally about creativity, about something new, about THE FUTURE.

[Calybos]

I hope something comes of all this. I would be a shame if the Legion's 50th anniversary was marked by its permanent death.



.

[Matthew E]

Even I am not worried about that. Look, DC has proven recently and repeatedly that they will bring anybody back from anything. So it's only a matter of time before the Legion has their own series again. The only question for me is, is it a lot of time or a little time?

[Shellhead]

Reading various interviews by Geoff Johns, and looking at his body of "Legion" related work, it's clear that Geoff Johns believes that the key to a successful Legion is tying it tightly to modern day continuity. There are LOADS of references to 20th century stuff - and even travel back to that period - in almost every Legion related story Johns has written so far.

This is a fundamental disconnect from what made the Legion so popular in the 70s and 80s, where new ideas, new characters, new villains, new worlds and an ever evolving, changing status quo were the hallmarks of Legion continuity. Yeah, you'd occasionally get a "Great Darkness Saga" or a reference to DC mythology, and of course Superman and Supergirl were important aspects of the book, but it was fundamentally about creativity, about something new, about THE FUTURE.

I can think of a couple of good reasons to avoid close ties between Legion continuity and modern day continuity.

First, it's dumb. How often do I go through my daily business pondering the events of the 11th century? Almost never. Too many other things happened in between, and frankly, what happened last week is generally a lot more relevant to my life than what happened 1,000 years ago, at least in practical terms.

Second, it puts handcuffs on Legion writers. If Legion continuity is in constant turmoil due to events in the 21st century, you get lots of reboots and divide up the fanbase into hostile factions, leaving a majority of fans dissatisfied with almost any new Legion stories. In fact, that is what has already happened.

No, the Legion should be mostly independent of the periodic events in the rest of the product line, and references to that distant past should be minimal. Leave things vague enough that no matter what happens in other DC comics, the outcome is already a part of the Legion's history.

[Matthew E]

I agree with Shellhead*, but.

The result of isolating the Legion from the rest of DC continuity is that there are some hardcore DC fans out there who have never read a Legion comic. As far as Legion fans go, this is no particular problem. But, from DC's perspective, they'd like to increase sales and this is something obvious they can try. And, after all, increased sales on the Legion are to the advantage of Legion fans. So I can see why they'd do it, and I hope the results are good, although my preference would still be for the old way.



*although I think and hope that the large-scale reboots are all behind us now

[Desaad]

The thing is, I see a certain degree of connectivity to be fine. Having Superman visit occasionally? That's fine. Taking some of the bigger, cosmic concepts of the DCU and translating, changing, exploring them in the future? Great. I don't have a problem with the idea of the GL Corps existing and being the center of a story in the Legion time. It makes sense to me that a organization that has existed for millions of years would still be prominent 1,000 years from now.

The problem comes when you get stories that center on characters or hinge on objects or technology from the distant past. The idea that Superboy Prime is Time Trapper, if it turns out to be more than a Red Herring, is probably the worst example of this. But going back in time to get Superboy's/Luthor's DNA, or bring back Wally and Bart from the dead? No, stop. That's enough.

Frankly, the Legion needs a more creative creator than Johns. I think he does a lot of good work, but he's not a conceptual machine the way that Morrison or JMS or Ellis or even Busiek can be (I'm bummed that Busiek confirmed that he won't be on the Legion as I think that would have been a really great fit). He's more about referring to past continuity, playing in a shared universe, revamping old villains and locales rather than creating new ones.

Oh well, we'll see.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Yeah I'm pretty sure Adventure Comics will be a good launching point for the new look LSH and Superboy. Plus there is the whole Year 1 reboot mini-series that Johns and Franks is doing to. So that will tie the LSH back into Superman's past.

[strathcona]

So, I am not interested in collecting Adventure comics if it is a Superboy book (which is is what it sounds like the case will be), but I do want to read the LSH back-ups (co-features... whatever). I don't want to pay 2.99 or 3.99 each month to get an 8 page LSH story... but I would buy them together collected. Has there been any talk about how these back-ups will/might be collected?

[Chemical King]

I also am having the problem that I don't give a damn about Kon-El Superboy. That character came up in the 90s, when comic books as a whole mostly went downhill (Legion Reboot, Hal Jordan going mad, Iron Boy, Spider Clone, you name it). He was an uninteresting character in the beginning and no matter how many Luthor connections they pinned on him, he never grew more interesting since then.

So 8 pages of Starman crusing the DCU for 3,99$????? Oh my, this really is beyond any reason...

The hope that the Legion will return though is big. Any DC franchise ever keeps on turning up, like Aquaman, Jonah Hex, whatever. Heck, there is a new Doom Patrol AGAIN, written by none other than Keth Giffen. Now the really tough question is why they did not give the Legion to Giffen, which would have been the more natural idea that the umteenth restart of Doom Patrol (didn't John Byrne just mess that one up a year ago?????)...

[Calybos]

So, I am not interested in collecting Adventure comics if it is a Superboy book (which is is what it sounds like the case will be), but I do want to read the LSH back-ups (co-features... whatever). I don't want to pay 2.99 or 3.99 each month to get an 8 page LSH story... but I would buy them together collected. Has there been any talk about how these back-ups will/might be collected?


This is a VERY important question. I'm not blowing money on a Superpunk comic just to get my eight pages of the Legion every month... but I'd be glad to pick up a collection of those Legion stories later.




.

[Matthew E]

A thought for you two: if you write DC a letter (a paper letter, not an e-mail) telling them that, then they'll know just why it is that they didn't sell those two copies of Adventure. Otherwise, they might conclude that there just isn't enough interest in the Legion.

[Calybos]

Good point. I may do that.



.

[Deathstroke]

DC has so screwed up the Legion, I don't know if any reboot can fix things.

[_OM_]

DC has so screwed up the Legion, I don't know if any reboot can fix things.

...Which is why an unboot is needed. Everything that happened from just prior to The Magic Wars and onward needs to have simply never happened. It was all a Time Trapper plot. It was a dream. A hoax. An imaginary story. Whatever works to wipe everything that happened just before Levitz left the book off the map and proceed from there. Granted, you could introduce elements from the now-discarded post-Levitz runs that people actually liked - Kent Shakespear, Andromeda, Gates, Kinetix, etc, etc - but gradually, as part of a natural evolution of the team and not these sudden unnecessary reboots and five-year craps.

And above all else, keep you-know-who away from the book for the rest of his unnatural life :eek:

[Matthew E]

That's one way. Only problem is, it's not very kind to all the fans who were first exposed to the Legion through the reboot or threeboot or 5YL Legion.

Occasionally, I think I can detect an assumption that they aren't as important as fans of the original Legion, though...

[_OM_]

That's one way. Only problem is, it's not very kind to all the fans who were first exposed to the Legion through the reboot or threeboot or 5YL Legion.

...That's like saying someone shouldn't be elevated from poverty if that's all they've known.

[Matthew E]

Not at all.

The strength of the Legion concept hasn't changed much from version to version. (The threeboot had some unnecessary frills on the core concept, but, in my opinion, the effect of these extra features was greatly overstated.) The difference between the Legion versions, especially when it comes to quality, can mostly be traced back to the creative teams involved.

Since we're not getting Levitz and Giffen back as the creative team for this theoretical restored-original-Legion comic book, I don't see why we should expect it to be as good as the original second Levitz run was.

The corollary of this is that a good creative team ought to be able to make good comics out of whatever Legion version they inherit from FC:L3W, which is sort of a hopeful thing to think. I'd just prefer that this Legion version be one that all Legion fans, not just the oldest ones, can recognize an attachment to. (I'm not sure how that can best be achieved, although there are a number of different ways they could try it.)

[Deathstroke]

That's one way. Only problem is, it's not very kind to all the fans who were first exposed to the Legion through the reboot or threeboot or 5YL Legion.

Occasionally, I think I can detect an assumption that they aren't as important as fans of the original Legion, though...

The people who were first exposed to the 5YL Legion never got a proper introduction. That story line was abominably bad.

[_OM_]

The people who were first exposed to the 5YL Legion never got a proper introduction. That story line was abominably bad.

...And those who were babtized by the "Threeboot" debacle were just as damaged.

[Matthew E]

...so, therefore, those fans shouldn't get anything they want?

I mean, I disagree with your evaluations of both of those, but that's not the point. The point is, the ideal solution for the mess DC has the Legion in is not to alienate any fans any more than is unavoidable.

(And if I had to choose a group of fans to alienate, it'd be the ones who a) are obnoxious, and b) were older and therefore going to die sooner.)

[_OM_]

...so, therefore, those fans shouldn't get anything they want?

...Not when it's harmful to their sense of taste and mental health.


I mean, I disagree with your evaluations of both of those, but that's not the point.

...Matthew, you actually have my respect as being one of the more intelligent posters here on CBR. However, this is an area that we'll probably have to agree to disagree on ad eternum, then. My views on the Five-Year Crap and the "Threeboot" Debacle are pretty much immutable. I've honestly listened to all the arguments, and every single one of them had more lapses in logic than most Marvel Zombies demonstrate when they blindly defend their waste of money.


The point is, the ideal solution for the mess DC has the Legion in is not to alienate any fans any more than is unavoidable.

...Sometimes, sadly, the ideal solution isn't possible. In this case, based on the majority of comments, backed by sales figures, DC has alienated more Legion fans than it gained with "Threeboot", although I will admit that many of those who dropped the book did so because they'd already been burned once by you-know-who's original "Reboot" back in 1994.


(And if I had to choose a group of fans to alienate, it'd be the ones who a) are obnoxious, and b) were older and therefore going to die sooner.)

...See-BS took that same approach in 1971 when they dropped a large proportion of their highest-rated shows, simply because demographics showed that those who watched those shows were *not* the people who bought the products advertised. It can be pretty much demonstrated that this approach only worked for about 6 years before the decline in quality set in, and network TV went into the toilet it currently is trying to float in while claiming they're still on a Carnival cruise. Ergo, youngsters may buy more of certain products, but they're lest apt to be home watching TV.

But we're digressing here. We're talking about comics, where it applies more than you think, considering that comics are now so fracking overpriced that the kids can't afford them...:evilangry:

[Matthew E]

[QUOTE=_OM_;9058280...Sometimes, sadly, the ideal solution isn't possible.[/quote]

No argument. But I still haven't heard any reasons why your solution is the one that'll work, other than that you like it.

I don't want to argue on behalf of any one version of the Legion. I like them all, for the very good reason that they're all versions of the Legion. All I'm trying to say is that a big-tent approach will get a warmer reception than any small-tent approach.

--

Here's what I really think. I think that the audience-size for a Legion comic had basically stabilized by the time the reboot was well underway. DnA was able to grow it a little and Waid and Kitson were able to grow it a little more. But not dramatically. I think it doesn't matter which version of the Legion you cast in a new Legion series; it'll still get about the same size audience.

From there, it depends on how shrewd and astute you think DC is. Maybe they're a bunch of shortsighted bunglers who drove the threeboot Legion into the ground to kiss up to Johns and Meltzer, only to turn them into backup fodder for Adventure because they don't have any better ideas for the Legion. Or maybe DC is playing the long game, and the appearances of the retroboot Legion have been/are being designed to spoonfeed manageable amounts of the Legion to large amounts of DC's non-Legion-reading fans, to whet their appetite for an eventual Legion series in 2010 (possibly including the reboot and threeboot Legions in limited roles*).

I can see it either way.

--

* if you have your doubts about this part, let me remind you of Johns's Hawkman fix: when confronted with past Hawkman runs far more mutually contradictory than the different Legion versions, he didn't throw anything out; he found a way to use it all. And it worked! (Well, as much as anything can work for Hawkman, who is, apologies to Hawkman fans, not as fruitful a source of story as is the Legion.)

[strathcona]

That's one way. Only problem is, it's not very kind to all the fans who were first exposed to the Legion through the reboot or threeboot or 5YL Legion.

I agree. I was originally exposed to the LSH at the beginning of the 5 Year Gap, and man do I love those comics, I would say that they are some of my favourite comics of all time. I had never read any LSH before, and because of it, I have become a fan. I have read some (not even near all, but more than a little) of the original LSH because of my exposure to them in the 5 Year Gap, and I love what I have seen there too. But I would never have read them if it hadn't been for how great the 5 Year Gap was. I was originally bummed when the LSH was rebooted, but man, I loved the reboot too. In fact, during what most people call the Archie Legion, I considered the books my favourite books at the time... I loved them, right through the DnA era. I did drop the book at the Threeboot though, as I saw it as a kick in the pants that fans of the original LSH must have seen the reboot.

I would love to see a return to either the original LSH, the 5 Year Gap (I realize that won't happen... fans wouldn't like it, and it also had a definitive ending) or the Reboot (and I am sure there are those out there that would love to see the Threeboot). But I think what would work best is some sort of amalgamation of the three (four?) different eras, highly concentrating on the originals... that way everyone can be happy.

[Chemical King]

But I think what would work best is some sort of amalgamation of the three (four?) different eras, highly concentrating on the originals... that way everyone can be happy.

I don't believe that. An amalgamation would be a disaster cause in the end, EVERYBODY would find something to hate about it because it would not belong to "their" Legion...

Even though _OM_ is pretty dogmatic in his statements - and I totally differ as to his opinion concerning the splendid 5YL era - his suggestion to start the Legion over somewhen during the late Levitz run is the only one I can imagine would be strong enough to result in sales high enough to survive for at least ONE year... 5YL was 19 years ago (OH MY GOD!!!), the Reboot ended five years ago, many fans moved on, and I guess it would be an illusion to hope for one of thgese approaches to attract a fan following which would let the book survive.

The Grell/Levitz/Giffen Legion is the one that probably has the largest amount of brand recognition. Many people not into the Legion consider this one the "original" Legion (which, in the end, it is). So if any Legion has a chance to attract new readers - as the JSA succeeded in doing ten years ago, thus founding a still healthy nostalgia franchise - it would be this "archetypical" one, which also has the largest amount of Legion Lore to get back to for new story ideas imbedded into the now so popular wave of nostalgia.

Reboot lovers could be brought on board by introducing some of their characters like Gates or *shudder* XS as new members (I cannot imagine a single Threeboot character worth reintroducing), thus also honoring the actual timeline (I mean, Polar Boy or Quislet WERE invented years before gates, so it would be natural for one of those newer characters to join AFTER the originals... but that's just a detail...)

So if DC is not totally out of its mind and tries another vain attempt to re-re-reboot the Legion, the back-to-the-roots approach using the current 80s nostalgia wave is the only way which would make sense... but hey, DC seemd to be totally out of its mind recently, so... who knows... my hopes are not very high, but the fact that they even bothered to reintroduce an 80s lookalike Legion at all nourishes my dream that some day, we might have a decent, entertaining, well done Legion book again where Tinya loves Jo, Garth married Imra and Projectra avenged her late husband by executing Nemesis Kid. For example.

[Matthew E]

To me, it depends on what you mean by amalgamation.

If Johns takes the three Legions in FC:L3W and mystically smooshes them into one Legion, where the three Saturn Girls merge into one, and the histories of the three teams blend together into one history, then that's just another reboot and it won't satisfy anybody.

If Johns does this kind of mystical-smooshing thing but leaves each merged character with three separate sets of independent memories, and their histories are intact behind them, then that's a little better, but it would be as awkward as anything.

If Johns kills off a few dozen characters and assembles the survivors into a single Legion, then that's workable but terrible, as I don't want dozens of Legionnaires to die, and I suspect I'm not alone.

If Johns leaves the three Legions separate, but lowers the barriers to interdimensional travel, thus allowing for frequent interaction between the three teams, then that would be a nice friendly solution that isn't all that different from what we have now, so why are they making such a big deal about it?

If Johns turns the 31st century multiverse into a 52-sided megaverse that needs the three Legions to team up into one big Legion to police it all, then to me that's a totally cool solution and I want to buy that comic book right freaking now.

[_OM_]

No argument. But I still haven't heard any reasons why your solution is the one that'll work, other than that you like it.

...Basically, it works like this: The Magic Wars was considered the beginning of the downward spiral for the Legion. Everything after that was met with extreme controversy and loss of readership that exceeded the numbers of any new readers brought on. There are far fewer fans/critics who argue the Levitz era sucked - most of them are trolls just looking to jerk Legion fans' chains, natch - so the safest, most logical thing to do is to unboot the book back to that era, restoring the previous status quo that was without question a success.

That answer your question?

[Matthew E]

Well, it's a valid position to take, anyway.

You're right that there are those who dismiss the Levitz era, although not many: I've encountered opinions that the Legion hasn't been worth reading since the first time Levitz touched them, or that the Legion died for good when their Adventure run ended. Obviously there's no pleasing people like that.

The "Magic Wars" storyline isn't really the consensus choice for the Legion's point-of-no-return, though; I've seen far more votes for the "Death of Superboy" story or even Crisis on Infinite Earths as the cutoff point. (Those who look at CoIE that way are obviously using hindsight, as there was no discernible change in either continuity or story quality at the time.) Anyway, Geoff Johns seems to be erring on the side of an earlier cutoff and using sometime around CoIE as his divergence point, so I imagine you're enjoying his Legion.

I like the Levitz Legion as much as anybody does. I completely understand if someone wants to have them back. (I don't, exactly, because I feel like that part of the story came to a natural end; it's the unfinished stories I want back.) I just don't see why Levitz-era fans should be privileged above everyone else too young to have climbed on board that early.

It's been about a quarter of a century since CoIE. How many new fans has the Legion picked up in a quarter of a century? It'd be really obnoxious for DC to send them the message that, in effect, they've been wasting their time all along. (Yes, I know that DC's already done that in '94 and '04. Doesn't make it any smarter to do it again.)

And, let's face it: all those Legion fans that DC left behind after the Magic Wars? They ain't coming back, most of them.

[gustopher]

I don't believe that. An amalgamation would be a disaster cause in the end, EVERYBODY would find something to hate about it because it would not belong to "their" Legion...

Agreed.



So if DC is not totally out of its mind and tries another vain attempt to re-re-reboot the Legion, the back-to-the-roots approach using the current 80s nostalgia wave is the only way which would make sense... but hey, DC seemd to be totally out of its mind recently, so... who knows... my hopes are not very high, but the fact that they even bothered to reintroduce an 80s lookalike Legion at all nourishes my dream that some day, we might have a decent, entertaining, well done Legion book again where Tinya loves Jo, Garth married Imra and Projectra avenged her late husband by executing Nemesis Kid. For example.

Honestly, I'd rather see a Fourboot. The Johns Legion that they have been pushing is very nice, but all the characters are just too old and they've lost a bit of that innocence that makes them special. If they continue that Legion, it will just become Crotchety Old Teen Titans in Space.

What I'd like to see is the Johns version of Brainiac, with Kon-El, stuck in one of the other 52 universes, meeting a young Legion missing their Brainiac. Brainy and Kon-El can be trying to get home (we know that at least Kon-El will), and Brainy can take the role of truly terrible and impatient mentor, who thinks he knows better because he is smarter, older and more experienced.

Something that has some ties to what came before, but lets them do something entirely new.

[strathcona]

Sorry, when I said amalgamation, I didn't really mean merging the different versions into one (even though that's clearly what I wrote)... I was thinking more along the lines of what Chemical King was talking about. Going from a certain point (sounds like they are using just after Magic Wars I think) and continue the original continuity from there, incorporating the best from the other continuities (Kent Shakespeare, Kid Quantum (both I and II), Gates, XS, Kinetix (as she originally was), Celeste Rockfish, Fledderweb (man, I really wanted there to be more done with that guy), Dragonmage, Catspaw, Kono... so much that can be added) and removing the stuff that didn't work (Garth is Proty, Kinetix's transformations, Snake Sensor (though I did like her mutated look)...).

However, no matter what route they choose, there are going to be people that are upset. Threeboot, Reboot and 5 Year Gap fans will be upset if their LSHs aren't represented (even though I have become a fan of the original LSH, I still want to see the stuff I grew up with acknowledged and used). But as Matthew E said, there are a lot of old fans that are not going to come back... either they have moved on and don't follow comics anymore, or they just may too bitter to come back, even if the LSH is set right back to where they left off. So I really don't know which route is best to go. A fourboot is the worst option I think. All that will do is give future creators the excuse to reboot again and again... which is why I think the Threeboot was a mistake when Waid did it.

[Matthew E]

Sorry, when I said amalgamation, I didn't really mean merging the different versions into one (even though that's clearly what I wrote)... I was thinking more along the lines of what Chemical King was talking about. Going from a certain point (sounds like they are using just after Magic Wars I think) and continue the original continuity from there, incorporating the best from the other continuities (Kent Shakespeare, Kid Quantum (both I and II), Gates, XS, Kinetix (as she originally was), Celeste Rockfish, Fledderweb (man, I really wanted there to be more done with that guy), Dragonmage, Catspaw, Kono... so much that can be added) and removing the stuff that didn't work (Garth is Proty, Kinetix's transformations, Snake Sensor (though I did like her mutated look)...).

The trouble with that approach is that the appeal of the characters we like comes largely - about half, I'd say - from their history and their relationship with their original context. Introduce a new version of Gates for the retroboot Legion and it just wouldn't be the same. If you want to check this yourself, just think: who do you prefer, original Wildfire or reboot Wildfire?

[Vic Vega]

Well, it's a valid position to take, anyway.

You're right that there are those who dismiss the Levitz era, although not many: I've encountered opinions that the Legion hasn't been worth reading since the first time Levitz touched them, or that the Legion died for good when their Adventure run ended. Obviously there's no pleasing people like that.

The "Magic Wars" storyline isn't really the consensus choice for the Legion's point-of-no-return, though; I've seen far more votes for the "Death of Superboy" story or even Crisis on Infinite Earths as the cutoff point. (Those who look at CoIE that way are obviously using hindsight, as there was no discernible change in either continuity or story quality at the time.) Anyway, Geoff Johns seems to be erring on the side of an earlier cutoff and using sometime around CoIE as his divergence point, so I imagine you're enjoying his Legion.

I like the Levitz Legion as much as anybody does. I completely understand if someone wants to have them back. (I don't, exactly, because I feel like that part of the story came to a natural end; it's the unfinished stories I want back.) I just don't see why Levitz-era fans should be privileged above everyone else too young to have climbed on board that early.

It's been about a quarter of a century since CoIE. How many new fans has the Legion picked up in a quarter of a century? It'd be really obnoxious for DC to send them the message that, in effect, they've been wasting their time all along. (Yes, I know that DC's already done that in '94 and '04. Doesn't make it any smarter to do it again.)

And, let's face it: all those Legion fans that DC left behind after the Magic Wars? They ain't coming back, most of them.

I think the Magic Wars was the cutoff point for a lot of fans. Just not the more vocal ones you find on the internet.

But its hard to dispute that the 5 years later deal destroyed the franchise. In retrospect i'm amazed that DC editorial ever let that stuff get published.

"Let's change the genre of our second best selling franchise book! What could possibly go wrong?"

There is a lot to be said for stern editorial control. Denny O'neil ran the Batman shop with a iron fist and said that the Miller/O'Neil Batman was the only Batman. Period.

The net result? Batman's still D.C.'s most popular character(there WAS a time when his comic didn't sell all that well.

D.C. let its creators deviate from the Levitz Legion with the Archie Legion and the Threeboot and what was the result?

An 8 page backup in a Superboy book. The franchise now is worse off than it was in the mid 70's.

[strathcona]

The trouble with that approach is that the appeal of the characters we like comes largely - about half, I'd say - from their history and their relationship with their original context. Introduce a new version of Gates for the retroboot Legion and it just wouldn't be the same. If you want to check this yourself, just think: who do you prefer, original Wildfire or reboot Wildfire?

True... but what other approach is going to work? I don't want Gates and XS and others just forgotten about in favour of the original LSH.

[Matthew E]

But its hard to dispute that the 5 years later deal destroyed the franchise.
I'll dispute it. The 5YL era contained the most powerful Legion stories ever committed to paper. Fantastic comic books. DC wishes I cared about anything they're publishing now half as much as I cared about the 5YL Legion. I read a few Legion stories in the '70s; I started collecting the title when Roy Thomas was the writer; I became a real fan in the early Levitz era... but it was 5YL that made me a diehard fan.
It's true that 5YL contained a number of developments that left things in an awkward state for any writer who followed it, but not so much that a reboot was the only choice. Any decent writer could have straightened things out in a matter of pages. "End of an Era" was both depressing and unnecessary.

D.C. let its creators deviate from the Levitz Legion with the Archie Legion and the Threeboot and what was the result?

An 8 page backup in a Superboy book. The franchise now is worse off than it was in the mid 70's.
Yes, it is (again: depending on DC's plan; see my comment earlier in this thread). But there were lots of decisions that led us to this point, none of which were ever inevitable. You can't blame it all on any one thing.
And let's not pretend that Paul Levitz had perfected the art of Legion storytelling. His run on the title was undisputably very good, but it did have its flaws. To bring in a historical analogy: I'm not interested in giving the Legion a Levitzian Renaissance; I'd rather see an Enlightenment.

True... but what other approach is going to work?

Oh, I don't say it wouldn't work (lots of stuff would work!); just that it has a downside. But I touched on my preferred approach with the megaverse idea I mentioned upthread. (Yes, the cast would be unwieldy. I like the idea anyway, and think there are ways around that problem.)

[strathcona]

I'll dispute it. The 5YL era contained the most powerful Legion stories ever committed to paper. Fantastic comic books. DC wishes I cared about anything they're publishing now half as much as I cared about the 5YL Legion. I read a few Legion stories in the '70s; I started collecting the title when Roy Thomas was the writer; I became a real fan in the early Levitz era... but it was 5YL that made me a diehard fan.

I agree with this... except for the having read LSH before 5 Year Gap. That story arc still holds up as some of the best comics I have ever read... made me a die-hard fan of all things LSH.




Oh, I don't say it wouldn't work (lots of stuff would work!); just that it has a downside. But I touched on my preferred approach with the megaverse idea I mentioned upthread. (Yes, the cast would be unwieldy. I like the idea anyway, and think there are ways around that problem.)

The megaverse idea you mentioned could be a route to go... but I do think that will serve to confuse new readers... but personally, I'd love to see it if done right. The biggest problem I could see, is that the original LSH would get most of the attention and the Reboot and Threeboot (and 5 Year Gap if they were included) would be used sparingly. That and the inevitable, eventual idea that it would be a good idea to merge them multiples of each character into one version with all the different version's memories together... I don't think anyone would want to see that.

[Shellhead]

I don't think that anybody needs to die or be merged. Leave them in separate realities until somebody has another great story like Legion of 3 Worlds to tell. Or maybe just have the occasional team-up event. The successful role model for Legion should be the transition from JSA to JLA in the DCU, back in the early Silver Age.

Let the original Legion continue to age, and then start fresh with a new Legion in their own universe that just coincidentally has the exact same history as the original Legion before the 5YL gap. Make that new Legion the official future of New Earth (or whatever we are calling the main DCU these days), or leave that question unanswered. Keep the Archies and the Threeboot alive but mostly out of the picture, in their respective universes.

It can work. As a kid, I always enjoyed the annual JLA/JSA team-ups, reveling in minor details like the different masks worn by the Hawkman of Earth-1 and Earth-2. Even more fun was the major differences like one team has magical powerhouses like Doctor Fate and the Spectre, while the other team is more science-oriented, with the Atom and the Martian Manhunter. I wish that Legion of 3 Worlds lasted longer so there would be time to show more interaction between the various Legionnaires.

[Vic Vega]

I'll dispute it. The 5YL era contained the most powerful Legion stories ever committed to paper. Fantastic comic books. DC wishes I cared about anything they're publishing now half as much as I cared about the 5YL Legion. I read a few Legion stories in the '70s; I started collecting the title when Roy Thomas was the writer; I became a real fan in the early Levitz era... but it was 5YL that made me a diehard fan.
It's true that 5YL contained a number of developments that left things in an awkward state for any writer who followed it, but not so much that a reboot was the only choice. Any decent writer could have straightened things out in a matter of pages. "End of an Era" was both depressing and unnecessary.


Giffen took an successful top selling Super Hero team book and turned it into in his words,"Terry and the Pirates". That just bad management. Its like turning Batman into a romance comic.

Where there any straight Science Fiction books selling at the time besides Omega Men? Why would anybody think the market could handle 2 such books? And LSH was outselling Omega Men at that time anyway so the reasoning was far less than sound.

It like D.C took a big pile of money and lit it on fire because they wanted to see what would happen.

Titans died because they could not maintain the winning formula (Wolfman got writer's block and Perez left the book) LSH's creators ran away from the winning formula at top speed.

[Roquefort Raider]

The 5YL era contained the most powerful Legion stories ever committed to paper. Fantastic comic books. DC wishes I cared about anything they're publishing now half as much as I cared about the 5YL Legion.

I agree so much with that sentiment that I'll repeat it. Loudly.

The 5YL era contained the most powerful Legion stories ever committed to paper. Fantastic comic books. DC wishes I cared about anything they're publishing now half as much as I cared about the 5YL Legion.

I can see why returning to the 5YL Legion would not be a good idea, though. That storyline did end, albeit in a depressing and unsatisfactory way. It could be argued that we could return to the 5YL universe before its end, but that would definitely confuse the heck out of all but the most die-hard fans.

Reboots are very dangerous tools, because they make our emotional interest in the fate of characters a waste of time.

A new Legion mag, I think, should acknowledge the existence of the several Legion iterations. They can be from alternate futures or 52esque futures or whatever, but I'd keep them all in continuity. I would also refrain from visiting these different universes as much as possible.

Oh, sure, once DC decides which Legion is going to be the prominent one, I wouldn't mind having favorite characters or concepts from 5YL, reboot or threeboot crossing-over for the duration. For example, if the "pre-magic wars" legion is chosen as the "real" one, I'd love to have Shikari come to our universe. I'd love the series to use the great idea of Mon-El having seeded many UP planets with human victims of Dominion experimentations, because it elegantly explains why so many aliens are humanoid and why they have super-powers. I'd love to have Gates go the wrong way during a teleportation and end up here.

No need to constantly refer to their universe of origin; just bring them over so we know they're the "real" character, and continue as if nothing had happened.

[Matthew E]

I don't think that anybody needs to die or be merged. Leave them in separate realities until somebody has another great story like Legion of 3 Worlds to tell. Or maybe just have the occasional team-up event.

I'd be okay with this.

By the way, can anyone show me the sales data for LSH v3 (Levitz) and v4 (5YL)? Because my impression is that there wasn't a huge dropoff (as seems to be the assumption in this thread), but I'd like to establish the facts.

(Batman as a romance comic could be awesome! Not that I think it should be the only kind of Batman comic...)

[Chemical King]

I agree so much with that sentiment that I'll repeat it. Loudly.

The 5YL era contained the most powerful Legion stories ever committed to paper. Fantastic comic books. DC wishes I cared about anything they're publishing now half as much as I cared about the 5YL Legion.


And I second your feelings. To me, the first 38 issues of 5YL were a bold step into uncharted territory years ahead of its time. Large ensemble cast? Storylines within storylines within storylines? Bonus material? Dark setting? All these elements seem to be a major part of the success of modern comic books and TV shows like Lost, Battlestar Galactica or Fables. The 5YL comics are those books in my collection that I reread the most often and everytime I do so, I enjoy them thoroughly.

By the way: When I came back to comics in 1994 after a forced ten year hiatus, my first 5YL issues were ##13 & 14. There was a double spread page in #13 and I immediately recognized most of my childhood heroes no matter the art and their growing up. So somehow, the uniqueness of the characters was a given in 5YL - at least for me.

But as a faithful fan of the previous 30 years of Legion Lore since my childhood days, I'm willing to sacrifice 5YL for the greater good. 5YL to me will always stay a cherished elseworld story. And I doubt it was the reason for nowadays Legion problems. There has been plenty of editorial blundering for the last 20 years which is certainly more to blame...

[Deathstroke]

I'm sorry but having read the majority of the 5YL legion issues and currently finishing up the ones I missed first time around...the stories, no matter the merits of the they are great vs. they are garbage, were utterly destroyed by the crap art.

[Matthew E]

I wouldn't go that far. But the art was inconsistent and sometimes murky.

And, toward the end of the run... I don't know if it was the colouring or the paper or the printing or what it was, but the whole thing looked kind of washed out. Immonen deserved better.

[_OM_]

I wouldn't go that far. But the art was inconsistent and sometimes murky.

And, toward the end of the run... I don't know if it was the colouring or the paper or the printing or what it was, but the whole thing looked kind of washed out. Immonen deserved better.

...In order:

1) Giffen was still trying to figure out how to tweak his "Post-Omen & The Prophet" style so that fans wouldn't catch on how badly he was swiping Jose Munoz in those days. Between that and cramming everything into a 9-panel grid, his art part of that run was not by any means his best work, and detracted even further from the already abysmal story.

2) Immonen's work was muddled by the coloring *and* the inking, both of which were pretty much slopped on over his pencils in such a way that details - especially facial ones - were obscured. IIRC, he commented in one interview how he wasn't satisfied with his Legion work during this period for these reasons.

[Babylon23]

Personally I loved the 5YL stories that Giffen produced and consider them a Legion high point. The stories were intelligent, innovative and complex, the characterisation excellent, the narrative structure fascinating and the issues overall were exciting. Even DC attempts to derail the series with ridiculous editorial mandates didn't phase Giffen and he developed some incredibly creative ways of working around those issues. This was an incredibly creative series that actually sparked my interest in a team that I'd considered fairly dull up to that point.

I loved Giffen's artwork as well. It was very appropriate to the stories he was writing and created an incredible tone and feel to the series. Loved Jason Pearson's efforts as well when he replaced Giffen.

It's a shame the series lost it's way when Giffen left and editorial tried to appease the long-term fans by trying to revert the series back to it's former status, a move that was destined to fail as old school fans wanted to completely ignore the 5YL gap and new fans didn't want to see a reversion.

However, I also accept that we'll never see the 5YL Legion ever again. DC's editorial policy these days is to return to 'iconic' representations of their characters, which apparently means Levitz-era Legion.

[Paul Newell]

I'd be okay with this.

By the way, can anyone show me the sales data for LSH v3 (Levitz) and v4 (5YL)? Because my impression is that there wasn't a huge dropoff (as seems to be the assumption in this thread), but I'd like to establish the facts.

Thank you Michael R. Grabois!

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a319/mgrabois/Legionsales1960-2007II.gif

[Paul Newell]

And for those interested, thanks to Michael again, here's the last 1996 to 2008 update he did:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a319/mgrabois/Legionsales_1995-2998.gif

[Matthew E]

Interesting; I hadn't remembered that that chart went back that far.

I think it'd be hard for anyone to use that data to support any kind of hobbyhorse, unless they've had a longstanding theory that Bates, Cockrum, Grell and Levitz were working overtime to kill the Legion as a sustainable franchise.

[hondobrode]

The Legion really got good on Levitz's return to the title and esp when Giffen came on board. It was on its way with Broderick but it really came alive with Giffen. That first annual with Computo was fantastic. The Legion was one of my favorite books up until v4.

I was so dying for the next Legion and after reading the first couple of issues didn't come back. Later I found the next dozen issues for $ .50 each from a guy who thought they were terrible. I figured I'd come back to one of my favorite titles for that price and see if it got better.

It got great. I wholeheartedly agree they're some of my favorite books even now. They were way ahead of their time. I was shocked when they actually blew up the moon.

Later, the End of an Era, broke my heart. I couldn't believe they were really doing it and even more so thought it wasn't necessary, but I had faith. I grew to really like the Archie Legion.

Then 3Boot. I even liked that but felt even more strongly that it wasn't necessary, esp from Mark Waid.

Don't merge the 3. Let the "classic" Legion be the main Legion and the other 2 exist within continuity on different worlds. Yes, I agree with the previous poster about the great old summer crossovers of JLA and JSA. Now and again the megaverse can interact, which is the whole point of the megaverse I think. Potentially 52 different versions of characters.

I like all the versions of the Legion.

[Chemical King]

So even though people are having different favorites, there seems to be a consensus building that the only way for the Legion to survive would be the Levitz Legion - with the newer Boots as welcome guests in a supporting role.

Well, now let's see what DC is cooking up. "Our" consensus here seems to be a no-brainer - but that doesn't mean that DC won't pull a totally different crappy idea out of the magicians hat just to show us how unpredictable Dan Didio really can be...

P.S.: As for 5YL artwork: I also liked it a whole lot. Of course it does not win a George Perez beauty contest, but it's an important factor why the books are still interesting to read in my eyes. I'm refering to Giffens and Pearsons artwork, by the way. There were too many guest artists, that's for granted (a fact that also hurt the Threeboot, by the way - Kitson missed way too many issues), and when Immonen came on board, Gifen had already left and without his storytelling and the 9-panel grid, the book lost its special flavor. Immonens art was not bad, but the Legion after Giffen looked just like any other mediocre mid-90s comic book.

[_OM_]

Well, now let's see what DC is cooking up. "Our" consensus here seems to be a no-brainer - but that doesn't mean that DC won't pull a totally different crappy idea out of the magicians hat just to show us how unpredictable Dan Didio really can be...

...Let us not rule out the probability that said "crappy idea" would be implemented because it *was* crappy, and would be intended as a "middle finger" to the fans who didn't salute the previous Legion flag when it was raised. Those who ask the question of "Duh...why would they do something that would cost them money?", I submit the example of Jericho. The show had enough of a grass roots revival demand that See-BS had to bring it back for an abortive second season after having been crucified for having caused the perceived ratings drop with the unnecessary months-long mid-season break. However, I speak from experience in TV when I point out that network executives do not like it one iota when viewers actively dictate programming decisions by any method other than watching the show and buying advertised products. Hence scheduling the last season at a really crappy time slot, thus guaranteeing that the show wouldn't expand beyond its niche ratings, which in turn they could then claim they were right in the first place in canceling the show.

I honestly could see Didio pulling that sort of stunt with the Legion, just to get back at us for not having blindly supported the "Threeboot" Debacle.

[Matthew E]

I don't find that at all plausible. For one thing, I think the fans supported the threeboot better than DC and its employees did, if those sales charts can be believed. It wasn't the fans who blindsided Waid and Shooter with the retroboot Legion, taking the wind out of whatever sails the threeboot had. It wasn't the fans who cancelled it partway through a big storyline, with a fill-in writer and artist on the hastily-assembled and unsatisfying final issue. It wasn't the fans who quit on the title the way Waid, Kitson, Marts, Manapul and possibly Shooter did. If DiDio was so protective of the threeboot, maybe he would have avoided jerking it around so much.

I don't know any more about the CBS/Jericho situation than you're telling me, but I have to imagine that that kind of behaviour is more the exception than the rule. Neither DiDio nor DC are doing so well that they can afford to be so intentionally cavalier with their own bread and butter.

[hondobrode]

The team has been around more than 50 years and Levitz has stated that the franchise will survive. I don't think DC would try to screw with iit. My theory was their co-feature in Superboy is trying to bolster Superboy's title, not necessarily the other way around.

We've got Mon-El in the Legion. I would prefer both Superboy and Supergirl just stay as guests now and then, but not regular members.

I wonder how long before we get the Legion gets their own title back.

I haven't liked the Titans in years and would prefer if DC pared that down and built up Legion more.

[strathcona]

LSH and R.E.B.E.L.S. are the only DC books I read, so I miss a lot of what is announced by DC, but the impression that I am getting from Adventure Comics is that it will indeed be what DiDio is calling it, a co-feature and not just a backup. Is that correct? Can we expect the book to be half Superboy and half LSH? Or are we expecting it to have an 8 page LSH story?

[Matthew E]

I am expecting it to have an 8-page story, featuring (at the start) a single Legionnaire or (someday) the Legion as a team.

And DiDio is of course correct: the stories will be co-features and not backups, with the slight qualification that the word "co-feature" means, in this context, "backup".