Why do I enjoy reading Green Lantern, but can't stand Hal Jordan?

[malephoenix]

I got a couple random issues over the years that featured Kyle, and one even spotlighting Jade. But I didn't really get into GL until reading so many positive reviews over the Sinestro Corps War. So I waited for the two hardbacks of that story, and started collecting the current series, along with the GLCorps spinoff.

The entire idea of the Emotional Spectrum entrances me, and I really like John's writing style. But I just don't care at all about Hal. He's nowhere near as interesting to me as Kyle, and I wince every time I read Kyle because I have to look at Gleason's art. (Which may be the only thing about current GL lore that I dislike more than Hal.)

Does anyone else have this problem in any way? I'm really into the story, but MAN, I wish I woud've read more GL when Kyle was the star.

[Hullababy]

No.Hal is my favorite character.I could care less about Kyle.I like Guy Gardner more than Kyle as well.

[dreyga2000]

Hmmm... Well Kyle does have a title you can read but you just hate the artist (understandable, took me a while to get used to it).... Quite the Dilema...

From an analytical stand point your only three choices are start to like Hal, start to like Gleson, or give up on GL entirely

Choose one...

It may not help you but whenever I have problems like this, this is how I solve them... Break it down to possible choices, and choose one

[Babylon23]

No problem here. Hal is one of my favourite characters and I never thought much of Kyle until Johns used him in Rebirth. Plus I love Gleason's artwork on GLC.

There's 10 years worth of back issues featuring Kyle as GL. I'm sure you can find them if you're interested in Kyle stories.

[StormWatch]

Love Alan Scott

Gardner is Ok

Kyle is terrible and boring

Stewart is alright

Hal made a great villian and they should have kept him as Parallax

[Pól Rua]

When Hal Jordon is well-written, he's a great character. I recommend Darwyn Cooke's take on him in 'DC: The New Frontier' or Mark Waid's take in 'Justice League: Year One'.
Geoff Johns, unfortunately, spends so much time telling us how awesome Hal is and having all his supporting characters go on and on about how cool and awesome Hal is, that he doesn't leave any time for actually portraying Hal as a cool person.

[Hullababy]

When Hal Jordon is well-written, he's a great character. I recommend Darwyn Cooke's take on him in 'DC: The New Frontier' or Mark Waid's take in 'Justice League: Year One'.
Geoff Johns, unfortunately, spends so much time telling us how awesome Hal is and having all his supporting characters go on and on about how cool and awesome Hal is, that he doesn't leave any time for actually portraying Hal as a cool person.

Disagreed. I thought Hal was portrayed very well in secret origins.

[Ilash]

It''s pretty simple: however much Green Lantern might star Hal Jordan, Geoff Johns hasn't really spent oodles of time on his actual character beyond the occasional Secert Origins. Green Lanten is much more plot-oriented than it is character oriented - for better or worse.

[Thok]

Kyle is an everyman artist type, Hal is a no-nonsense space cop. They appeal to different groups.

Hal, IMHO, fits in better with a group of spacefaring cops, but I can see why people might prefer Kyle as a character.

[Will.S]

It''s pretty simple: however much Green Lantern might star Hal Jordan, Geoff Johns hasn't really spent oodles of time on his actual character beyond the occasional Secert Origins. Green Lanten is much more plot-oriented than it is character oriented - for better or worse.
I would have to agree.

I enjoy the title despite Hal Jordan, not because of him.

[malephoenix]

It''s pretty simple: however much Green Lantern might star Hal Jordan, Geoff Johns hasn't really spent oodles of time on his actual character beyond the occasional Secert Origins. Green Lanten is much more plot-oriented than it is character oriented - for better or worse.

That sums up my feelings pretty well, though I hadn't been able to put my finger on it. Since I like the Blackest Night set up so much, I'm trying to like Hal, but he just keeps on not really being very interesting or enjoyable to me. I like Cowgirl and others in the support cast, though. It seems that with so much time and attention spent elsewhere, any time with them ends up being pretty intentional.

I was a little concerned that somebody was gonna start throwing "Then stop buying it, crybaby!" comments out there, but I appreciate the genuine posts, even from people that really like Jordan.

I enjoyed his animated portrayal by David Boreanaz in New Frontier. I'm hoping to get a kick out of the new GL animated, as well. I find Victor Garber to be a great actor since Alias. Maybe the animation just helps him feel more real to me.

[Ilash]

That sums up my feelings pretty well, though I hadn't been able to put my finger on it. Since I like the Blackest Night set up so much, I'm trying to like Hal, but he just keeps on not really being very interesting or enjoyable to me. I like Cowgirl and others in the support cast, though. It seems that with so much time and attention spent elsewhere, any time with them ends up being pretty intentional.

I was a little concerned that somebody was gonna start throwing "Then stop buying it, crybaby!" comments out there, but I appreciate the genuine posts, even from people that really like Jordan.

I enjoyed his animated portrayal by David Boreanaz in New Frontier. I'm hoping to get a kick out of the new GL animated, as well. I find Victor Garber to be a great actor since Alias. Maybe the animation just helps him feel more real to me.

Yeah, I have to say that while there have been versions of Hal Jordan that I've liked in the past (most notably New Frontier and Mark Waid's JLA: Year One and Flash and Green Lantern: Brave and the Bold), Kyle Rayner has always been my Green Lantern. And, for that matter, I've found Guy Gardner to be a much more interesting character than Hal as well.

All that said, Green Lantern is one of the best, most intricately plotted series out there so I love it almost for that alone. And while Geoff's Hal isn't one of my favourites, he is likable enough that it isn't a distraction from the rest of what's going on.

Do you read Green Lantern Corps, by the way?

[Hullababy]

Kyle is an everyman artist type, Hal is a no-nonsense space cop. They appeal to different groups.

Hal, IMHO, fits in better with a group of spacefaring cops, but I can see why people might prefer Kyle as a character.

Yes its true that different people find different GLs appealing but by no means do I find Hal uninteresting.And GL is more plot oriented but Hal does have his moments.The last issue "words are cheap" comment I thought fit in with his character perfectly.Kyle is more "Everyman" than Hal that is true.But I don't find Hal uninteresting.He is just different from Kyle just like Guy is different from John.I can understand why he might not be everyone's favorite but hey we do have 4 green lanterns from earth for that very reason.

[Paiute 1]

My only problem is that Johns portrays Hal as more of the ladies man; almost a womanizer but than he reverted back to the nice guy in secret origion.
Except for Carol there was no mention of other Women.

[Hullababy]

My only problem is that Johns portrays Hal as more of the ladies man; almost a womanizer but than he reverted back to the nice guy in secret origion.
Except for Carol there was no mention of other Women.

You do realize secret origins is set in Hal's past. When he first became Green Lantern. So he can't really "revert" back if its a story set in the past :rolleyes:

[Zawisza]

In theory, given what I like and don't like about comics, Green Lantern should be my absolute fave. Yet it's not. I cannot explain it. I like the characters well enough - except Kilowog is my fave of the bunch, stemming from way back in the original Bill Willingham-drawn issues of the Green Lantern Corps - the space opera of it and the alien-ness of the "universe" of the GLs, but the actual Green Lantern title doesn't manage to be a MUST READ for me. Heck, I still haven't cracked the cover of last week's issue.

GLC is a completely different story. Maybe it's Gleason's art or the wider cast of characters and locations. I can't logically explain it.

It simply is.

[SMKSPY]

I wouldn't be reading GL regularly again if weren't for Hal. I would occasionally picked GL when Kyle was the star, but could never get into the "Peter Parker" of the GL universe...though oddly enough I highly enjoyed Kyle in JLA. I think Hal's character does suffer because it is secondary to the overall plot of SCW/BN. I hope after BN we'll get more character driven stories for Hal.

[Ilash]

I wouldn't be reading GL regularly again if weren't for Hal. I would occasionally picked GL when Kyle was the star, but could never get into the "Peter Parker" of the GL universe...though oddly enough I highly enjoyed Kyle in JLA.

Well, yeah. I really liked Ron Marz's first 50 issues and found quite a bit to like after that but Kyle Rayner has never been better than he was when he was written by Grant Morrison in his seminal JLA run.

[ddsave]

Many of you have posted that Hal's Green Lantern title is more plot-driven and Hal is merely a vehicle for the plot. I would disagree to an extent. There are different ways to develop a character. Some writers have the GL's stand around and explain what their feeling or make them fun with snappy dialogue. But Hal is less about talk and more about action. His character is defined by the choices he makes and the actions he takes. He shouldn't have to sit around explaining why he did what he did. That's bad writing. If people can't understand who Hal is and what his motivations are after all this time, then they aren't paying attention. In reality, people don't explain themselves as much as a lot of these comic book characters unless they're on a talk show.

Now if you understand Hal as a character but you prefer the personality of John, Guy or Kyle - that's fine. I just disagree with anyone that thinks Hal has been given any less characterization than any of the other GL's. Read the Green Lantern/Green Arrow run before you reach that conclusion. I wouldn't be surprised if many of the fans of the GL's aside from Hal were not reading comics during the 60's & 70's.

[Ilash]

Many of you have posted that Hal's Green Lantern title is more plot-driven and Hal is merely a vehicle for the plot. I would disagree to an extent. There are different ways to develop a character. Some writers have the GL's stand around and explain what their feeling or make them fun with snappy dialogue. But Hal is less about talk and more about action. His character is defined by the choices he makes and the actions he takes. He shouldn't have to sit around explaining why he did what he did. That's bad writing. If people can't understand who Hal is and what his motivations are after all this time, then they aren't paying attention. In reality, people don't explain themselves as much as a lot of these comic book characters unless they're on a talk show.

Fair enough. Take a look at the work that Grant Morrison did with Kyle Rayner in JLA.

But honestly, compare the work done with Hal in GL/ Flash: Brave and the Bold
and in New Frontier - both of which are hardly action-free to Green Lantern to see where the complaints come from.

Now if you understand Hal as a character but you prefer the personality of John, Guy or Kyle - that's fine. I just disagree with anyone that thinks Hal has been given any less characterization than any of the other GL's. Read the Green Lantern/Green Arrow run before you reach that conclusion. I wouldn't be surprised if many of the fans of the GL's aside from Hal were not reading comics during the 60's & 70's.

Uh, maybe I'm missing something but the complaints about Hal's characterisation has more to do with the current GL title, not about past reads.

[SMKSPY]

Well, yeah. I really liked Ron Marz's first 50 issues and found quite a bit to like after that but Kyle Rayner has never been better than he was when he was written by Grant Morrison in his seminal JLA run.

For me, the first 25 issues of Marz run were great, but my interest just kept wanning. Morrison really defined Kyle's character for me though. He did a great job with him. Ultimately, I'm just not a fan of the everyman-turned-hero character.

Now if you understand Hal as a character but you prefer the personality of John, Guy or Kyle - that's fine. I just disagree with anyone that thinks Hal has been given any less characterization than any of the other GL's. Read the Green Lantern/Green Arrow run before you reach that conclusion. I wouldn't be surprised if many of the fans of the GL's aside from Hal were not reading comics during the 60's & 70's.

No matter how classic the 70s GL/GA run is, I really can't stand it. I can place myself in the times it was written, but I really hate Hal as a character during his hard-traveling hero quest years. Which is why I love Hal so much as a character now. He knows exactly who is and doesn't need to do anymore soul-searching.

[Vic Vega]

Many of you have posted that Hal's Green Lantern title is more plot-driven and Hal is merely a vehicle for the plot. I would disagree to an extent. There are different ways to develop a character. Some writers have the GL's stand around and explain what their feeling or make them fun with snappy dialogue. But Hal is less about talk and more about action. His character is defined by the choices he makes and the actions he takes. He shouldn't have to sit around explaining why he did what he did. That's bad writing. If people can't understand who Hal is and what his motivations are after all this time, then they aren't paying attention. In reality, people don't explain themselves as much as a lot of these comic book characters unless they're on a talk show.

Now if you understand Hal as a character but you prefer the personality of John, Guy or Kyle - that's fine. I just disagree with anyone that thinks Hal has been given any less characterization than any of the other GL's. Read the Green Lantern/Green Arrow run before you reach that conclusion. I wouldn't be surprised if many of the fans of the GL's aside from Hal were not reading comics during the 60's & 70's.

Or even the 90's Gerald Jones run, which cast Hal as a older, wiser character that had burned out on ego tripping cockyness for the most part and just wanted to find his place in the world.

I loved that Hal. This guy I can barely stand.

Now Kyle was interesting to me since I KNEW guys exactly like him. Even down to the unaccountably hot girlfriend(I mean Alex) that doubled as a babysitter/minder.

One character is an Icon the other is/was an Audience Surrogate. Which one you like largely depends on what you want out of your comics, I think.

[Hullababy]

One character is an Icon the other is/was an Audience Surrogate. Which one you like largely depends on what you want out of your comics, I think.

Personally I can relate to Hal way more than Kyle. Kyle was well portrayed in the JLA but I could never care about him in his own book.

[Hullababy]

Many of you have posted that Hal's Green Lantern title is more plot-driven and Hal is merely a vehicle for the plot. I would disagree to an extent. There are different ways to develop a character. Some writers have the GL's stand around and explain what their feeling or make them fun with snappy dialogue. But Hal is less about talk and more about action. His character is defined by the choices he makes and the actions he takes. He shouldn't have to sit around explaining why he did what he did. That's bad writing. If people can't understand who Hal is and what his motivations are after all this time, then they aren't paying attention. In reality, people don't explain themselves as much as a lot of these comic book characters unless they're on a talk show.


Very well said.I couldn't have put it any better. The 90s characterisation of Hal is wrong. Hal is not supposed to be the constant soul searcher.He is a man of action. You can certainly see his character traits throughout all the arcs if you look for them. For example, when he refuses to believe in "hope" saying that hoping for something only works when someone does something about it. That right there describes his character.

[Matt]

I'm really enjoying the current run and current portrayal of Hal Jordan.

He's struggling with his place in the GLC, how he's not trusted by most of them anymore despite his past deeds (or indeed, because of some of them). Yet he never backs down, he never complains ... he realises there's a job to do and just gets on with doing it.

Kyle, to me, is just not my sort of character. He's like Peter Parker-lite and holds no interest for me for the same reasons I don't like Spider-Man. I'm not interested in hearing stories of everyman style characters; instead I want stories based on characters people can aspire to be like; fearless, honest, full of willpower and determination all while trying to do the right thing no matter what.

[Den]

While I like some Everyman heroes now and then, for a time, the market was so flooded with them that a genuine "Man of Action" like Hal is a breath of fresh air. This isn't to say Hal never does any soul searching, but usually he prefers to keep himself busy during it.

Truth to tell though, right now, I'm loving the portrayal of ALL the Earth Lanterns. Kyle has matured, Guy is getting his better qualities shown, and John, while perhaps the most neglected of the crew, still gets moments to shine particularly in the intellect department.

[Ilash]

instead I want stories based on characters people can aspire to be like; fearless, honest, full of willpower and determination all while trying to do the right thing no matter what.

The thing is though that every-man characters like Peter Parker, Wally West, Kyle Rayner etc. fit these criteria just as easily as Hal Jordan or Superman.

[Matt]

The thing is though that every-man characters like Peter Parker, Wally West, Kyle Rayner etc. fit these criteria just as easily as Hal Jordan or Superman.

I disagree.

Kyle Rayner, for example, I regarded for much of his sole tenure as a whiney directionless fool of an idiot. He made bad decision after bad decision, from his choice of disguise in Green Lantern 1,000,000, making truly idiotic relationship decisions to handing over his Power Ring to Major Force.

Wally West is a lot better in that department, though it does vary depending on the era you're looking at. Even when he was broke he didn't complain or whine; he just got on with the job. While being written by Waid or Johns, he lost quite a bit of the 'everyman' aspect and became more the demigod status that the first tier heroes tend to have. Later he gained kids, maybe to build up the everyman thing again, but we all know what a disaster that move was.

[AdamYJ]

The thing is though that every-man characters like Peter Parker, Wally West, Kyle Rayner etc. fit these criteria just as easily as Hal Jordan or Superman.

Y'know, it's funny, I never saw Wally West as the "everyman" type. To me, he always seemed to be more like Hal than Kyle. He was the self-assured man of action, largely because he had been doing the job for so long.

I always thought there was kind of a balance between the "lesser trinity" of Flash, Green Lantern and Green Arrow in both its forms. In one, you had Barry Allen as the rational everyman, Hal Jordan as the super-confident man of action and Oliver Queen as a sort of tempermental social conscience. Then, with the "legacy heroes", you had Kyle Rayner as the imaginitive everyman, Wally West as the veteran man of action and Connor Hawke with a sort of rational, spiritual conscience. The three always seem to balance each other out.

As for the question at hand, I understand completely. Sometimes you can like a story even if you don't particularly gravitate toward a character or even certain aspects otherwise. Stories have an ability to get their hooks in you in strange ways.

[Pól Rua]

One problem with Hal is that he's defined by a couple of traits - he's extremely strong willed and fearless. Basically, this combination usually results in someone who is pretty cocky.
An unskilled writer will either turn this sort of character into a bland two dimensional hero type, or a cocky, arrogant, unlikable jerk.

Hal Jordon can be a great character, as I said, his portrayals in 'New Frontier' and 'JLA: Year One' were top-notch, but all-too-often an unskilled writer will turn him into the sort of character you don't really want to read about.

[Pól Rua]

Kyle, to me, is just not my sort of character. He's like Peter Parker-lite and holds no interest for me for the same reasons I don't like Spider-Man. I'm not interested in hearing stories of everyman style characters; instead I want stories based on characters people can aspire to be like; fearless, honest, full of willpower and determination all while trying to do the right thing no matter what.

One of the problems with Kyle Rayner was that he was unable to develop as a character because one of the things about the 'everyman' is that he is defined as much by his negative aspects as his positive aspects.
Developing Kyle's negative aspects were difficult because Ron Marz was being so assailed by people demanding that this new guy live up to the legacy of his predecessor that it was hard to write him as anything other than a crowd-pleasing white bread wannabe.

[Pól Rua]

Y'know, it's funny, I never saw Wally West as the "everyman" type. To me, he always seemed to be more like Hal than Kyle. He was the self-assured man of action, largely because he had been doing the job for so long.

Of course, that all depends on which Wally West you're talking about...
Marv Wolfman's red-baiting conservative?
Mike Baron's womanizing thrillseeker?
Mark Waid's harried family man?
One of the problems with Wally is that he's never been given a consistent persona, changing with the whims of whatever writer happens to be working on him today.

[AdamYJ]

One of the problems with Kyle Rayner was that he was unable to develop as a character because one of the things about the 'everyman' is that he is defined as much by his negative aspects as his positive aspects.
Developing Kyle's negative aspects were difficult because Ron Marz was being so assailed by people demanding that this new guy live up to the legacy of his predecessor that it was hard to write him as anything other than a crowd-pleasing white bread wannabe.

And now that they've evolved him, he comes across as being just another space cop.

Of course, that all depends on which Wally West you're talking about...
Marv Wolfman's red-baiting conservative?
Mike Baron's womanizing thrillseeker?
Mark Waid's harried family man?
One of the problems with Wally is that he's never been given a consistent persona, changing with the whims of whatever writer happens to be working on him today.

My main exposure to him is Waid and Johns. The image I usually envision with Wally is him running along the streets of Keystone City with a grim, determined look on his face (interestingly, I have a similar image for Barry, only it's Central City and he's smiling).

I honestly tend to think of Wally as being kind of a jerk, but that's usually because he would act mean and impatient to my favorite characters. He treated Kyle like crap for a while just because he wasn't Hal and because Kyle was a rookie. He was also mean to Impulse a lot of the time, easily losing his patience with him. So, he came off as kind of jerky for the most part.

[Pól Rua]

And now that they've evolved him, he comes across as being just another space cop.

Pretty much.
He's kind of like Dick Grayson. For years people wanted him to get away from the up-beat, colourfully-clad, wisecracking acrobat character, and ever since he's been Nightwing, he's been 'like-Batman-only-not-as-good'.

Seems like one of those 'careful what you wish for' scenarios.

[Matt]

One problem with Hal is that he's defined by a couple of traits - he's extremely strong willed and fearless. Basically, this combination usually results in someone who is pretty cocky.

I think there's a great deal more to Hal than that.
The death of his father is certainly a driving force in his life; he alternates between being shaken to the core by it while it also played a major role in shaping who he is.
His womanising ways (has anyone ever made a list of all the relationships/one night stands he's had?) act as a cover for his self doubts (which do exist, despite how much he tries to cover them) much like Oliver Queen.

He's now also dealing with the opinion most of the GLC has in regards to his past actions. He's also conflicted, so it seems, on the whole split in the Guardian's ranks - he's always gotten on reasonably well with Ganthet but now he's been kicked out and started his own Corps ... that leaves Hal in a tricky place. But, and this plays to Hal's strength of character, he's not whining about the conflict or letting it get in the way of his job.

[Ilash]

Of course, that all depends on which Wally West you're talking about...
Marv Wolfman's red-baiting conservative?
Mike Baron's womanizing thrillseeker?
Mark Waid's harried family man?
One of the problems with Wally is that he's never been given a consistent persona, changing with the whims of whatever writer happens to be working on him today.

Ey?

Pssst! It's called character development.

[Matt]

Ey?

Pssst! It's called character development.

I'd agree with that; over the years Wally has gone from a bit of a jerk and his experiences have actively shaped him into the character he's portrayed as today. His relationship with Linda Park certainly changed him as he realised he needed to grow up to make the whole thing work.

Later his achievements and new sense of purpose gained him increased respect from his peers which furthered his growth even more.

[Ilash]

My main exposure to him is Waid and Johns. The image I usually envision with Wally is him running along the streets of Keystone City with a grim, determined look on his face (interestingly, I have a similar image for Barry, only it's Central City and he's smiling).

Again, huh? "Grim, determined look"? Are you sure you were reading the same Flash comics as me because, man, that ain't Wally at all.

I honestly tend to think of Wally as being kind of a jerk, but that's usually because he would act mean and impatient to my favorite characters. He treated Kyle like crap for a while just because he wasn't Hal and because Kyle was a rookie. He was also mean to Impulse a lot of the time, easily losing his patience with him. So, he came off as kind of jerky for the most part.

Well, this is closer to the truth but still a gross exaggeration. As far as Kyle goes, he didn't trust the dude at all at first, to be sure (which is hardly unreasonable if you think about it) but they became friends over time.

As for Impulse, that was clearly played as being ironic. Wally, specifically when he was younger, had this impulsive and very impatient side so he reacted badly to it in Impulse. It also needs to be noted that when he first encountered Bart, Terminal Velocity was getting started so he had his own problems. Lastly, Wally wasn't really the mentoring type until he got kids recently - it may be a flaw in his character but that doesn't automatically make him a "jerk".

[Ilash]

I disagree.

Kyle Rayner, for example, I regarded for much of his sole tenure as a whiney directionless fool of an idiot. He made bad decision after bad decision, from his choice of disguise in Green Lantern 1,000,000, making truly idiotic relationship decisions to handing over his Power Ring to Major Force.

Those were more his earliest issues. The point is that over time he did come to fit the role perfectly. The reason I liked Kyle was because it was about character having greatness thrust upon him and learning to live up to it over time - if that isn't heroic, I don't know what is.

Wally West is a lot better in that department, though it does vary depending on the era you're looking at. Even when he was broke he didn't complain or whine; he just got on with the job. While being written by Waid or Johns, he lost quite a bit of the 'everyman' aspect and became more the demigod status that the first tier heroes tend to have. Later he gained kids, maybe to build up the everyman thing again, but we all know what a disaster that move was.

Y'know, it's funny, I never saw Wally West as the "everyman" type. To me, he always seemed to be more like Hal than Kyle. He was the self-assured man of action, largely because he had been doing the job for so long.

I always thought there was kind of a balance between the "lesser trinity" of Flash, Green Lantern and Green Arrow in both its forms. In one, you had Barry Allen as the rational everyman, Hal Jordan as the super-confident man of action and Oliver Queen as a sort of tempermental social conscience. Then, with the "legacy heroes", you had Kyle Rayner as the imaginitive everyman, Wally West as the veteran man of action and Connor Hawke with a sort of rational, spiritual conscience. The three always seem to balance each other out.


I don't see this. Wally is a "man of action", yes but I don't buy into this idea that he isn't an every-man. He's an "every-man" because (actually he is the opposite of Kyle in this regard but no less relatable) he did grow up with these extra-ordinary abilities that by the time he was an older teenager, he was pretty much a veteran but his personality did have very noticeable flaws (overly cocky, impulsive, impatient, immature) that he dealt with as he got older. Does this mean that when he had dealt with them to a large extent he was suddenly this perfect, unrelatable Icon? I just don't see it. The fact that these flaws still did creep up from time to time despite his being a more mature character, in a mature relationship (see his relationship with Impulse) and that he is, in the end, a likable, down to earth guy keeps him very much within the everyman slot - no matter how assured he usually is.

EDIT: Oh and the fact that he has matured so much as a character is in itself a huge part of what makes him such a relatable everyman.

[Matt]

Those were more his earliest issues.

He gave his Power Ring to Major Force (known super villain, killer of his GF, general douche bag) in the very last issue of his run.

It was an act of unbelievable stupidity which defies any rational explanation.

It's one thing to make mistakes (everyone does) but an act on that scale is one that just leaves you going "What the **** were you thinking?!"

[AdamYJ]

Those were more his earliest issues. The point is that over time he did come to fit the role perfectly. The reason I liked Kyle was because it was about character having greatness thrust upon him and learning to live up to it over time - if that isn't heroic, I don't know what is.

I don't see this. Wally is a "man of action", yes but I don't buy into this idea that he isn't an every-man. He's an "every-man" because (actually he is the opposite of Kyle in this regard but no less relatable) he did grow up with these extra-ordinary abilities that by the time he was an older teenager, he was pretty much a veteran but his personality did have very noticeable flaws (overly cocky, impulsive, impatient, immature) that he dealt with as he got older. Does this mean that when he had dealt with them to a large extent he was suddenly this perfect, unrelatable Icon? I just don't see it. The fact that these flaws still did creep up from time to time despite his being a more mature character, in a mature relationship (see his relationship with Impulse) and that he is, in the end, a likable, down to earth guy keeps him very much within the everyman slot - no matter how assured he usually is.

EDIT: Oh and the fact that he has matured so much as a character is in itself a huge part of what makes him such a relatable everyman.

I think there's a difference between being an everyman and being a character with flaws. Not every character who has flaws is an average joe, everyman type and vice versa. As for his "grim, determined look", look at the cover of the TPBs "Born to Run" or "Terminal Velocity". There may be reasons, but it seems like every iconic shot of Wally running you get, especially on covers, he kind of looks pissed off.

Then again, I just never really got into Wally. I mostly read the Johns run and that was mostly because the Rogues were so interesting. When it comes to Flash, I'm more of a Barry Allen fan, and that's mostly retroactive (Rebirth is "so-so").

He gave his Power Ring to Major Force (known super villain, killer of his GF, general douche bag) in the very last issue of his run.

It was an act of unbelievable stupidity which defies any rational explanation.

It's one thing to make mistakes (everyone does) but an act on that scale is one that just leaves you going "What the **** were you thinking?!"

Considering the fact that Kyle's ring doesn't work for anyone but himself and close members of his family (and, via loophole, Hal Jordan), I don't think it matters what villian gets ahold of his ring. Unless Major Force is secretly his brother or something. :tongue:

[Vic Vega]

Of course, that all depends on which Wally West you're talking about...
Marv Wolfman's red-baiting conservative?
Mike Baron's womanizing thrillseeker?
Mark Waid's harried family man?
One of the problems with Wally is that he's never been given a consistent persona, changing with the whims of whatever writer happens to be working on him today.

See, in Wally's case I find that an asset.

The intolerant red baiting 19 year old Wally become the 20 year old womanizing thrillseeking Wally when he gets his hands on some lottery dough.

That guy finds Ms. Right and marries her has kids and grows into the 26 year old harried family guy Wally we have today.

It's the most complete character arc ever seen in comics. Especially in an industry where characters are rarely allowed to change and grow(ex.:Spider-Man)

The guy we read about in Flash one is the exact same guy we read about in ALL-Flash one just older and with his head screwed on straight.

[Hullababy]

um Why are we talking about Wally West in a thread regarding Green Lantern ? :confused:

[aut0matic]

Pretty much.
He's kind of like Dick Grayson. For years people wanted him to get away from the up-beat, colourfully-clad, wisecracking acrobat character, and ever since he's been Nightwing, he's been 'like-Batman-only-not-as-good'.


Kyle Rayner = "like-Hal-only-not-as-good."

After all these years and the experience of being Ion, Kyle still seems like teh n00b of the Corps. Hal's the one that makes the villains shit their pants, nobody takes Kyle seriously. As interesting as the other members of the GLC are to me, Kyle has always been "just there."

And to completely disagree with everything the OP stated, I really enjoy Gleason's work, lol. :tongue:

[Super Buddies Forever]

Hey, I'm one of the few people brave enough to admit they loved Parallax. The whole idea that one of the Big 7 cracked under pressure and became a mass murdering psychopath with a god complex was just wickedly delightful. I also liked him as the Spectre, with him becoming a ghostly Obi-Wan to Kyle's Luke.

While I'm enjoying the new GL stories very much, a part of me would enjoy it even more if Hal was still in the ground (or in the sun, whatever).

[bad trotsky]

I got a couple random issues over the years that featured Kyle, and one even spotlighting Jade. But I didn't really get into GL until reading so many positive reviews over the Sinestro Corps War. So I waited for the two hardbacks of that story, and started collecting the current series, along with the GLCorps spinoff.

The entire idea of the Emotional Spectrum entrances me, and I really like John's writing style. But I just don't care at all about Hal. He's nowhere near as interesting to me as Kyle, and I wince every time I read Kyle because I have to look at Gleason's art. (Which may be the only thing about current GL lore that I dislike more than Hal.)

Does anyone else have this problem in any way? I'm really into the story, but MAN, I wish I woud've read more GL when Kyle was the star.

Because Hal Jordan is boring.

[Darrell D.]

See, in Wally's case I find that an asset.

The intolerant red baiting 19 year old Wally become the 20 year old womanizing thrillseeking Wally when he gets his hands on some lottery dough.

That guy finds Ms. Right and marries her has kids and grows into the 26 year old harried family guy Wally we have today.

It's the most complete character arc ever seen in comics. Especially in an industry where characters are rarely allowed to change and grow(ex.:Spider-Man)

The guy we read about in Flash one is the exact same guy we read about in ALL-Flash one just older and with his head screwed on straight.

William Messner-Loebs should really get a lot of credit for Wally maturing. He took what Mike Baron left him, and did a great job gradually developing the character.

[jackdaw53]

Here we have the allegedly impossible dilemma of a new GL fan who prefers Kyle to Hal (it happens, even in the best families) but no one suggests the obvious solution??

Back issues.... that place where 99% of all DC's best stories lie.

And seriously if I ever read another GL comic (I was cured a while back) then it will most likely be Mosaic... that's always sounded interesting to me... much more so than the astounding concept of a different color coming out the ring.

[Matt]

Because Hal Jordan is boring.

Thank you so much for that detailed and valuable insight. I'm sure your hypothesis shall go down in historical record as a masterful display of a fully reasoned out opinion piece.

[Ilash]

William Messner-Loebs should really get a lot of credit for Wally maturing. He took what Mike Baron left him, and did a great job gradually developing the character.

Absolutely. He didn't do quite as much as Waid did but he laid a lot of the ground work. And while his run is something of a mixed bag, there are some flat out gems to be found in his many years on the Flash.

[Matt]

Absolutely. He didn't do quite as much as Waid did but he laid a lot of the ground work. And while his run is something of a mixed bag, there are some flat out gems to be found in his many years on the Flash.

On a semi-related note ... to this day I miss Flash's old shiny suit.

[Ilash]

On a semi-related note ... to this day I miss Flash's old shiny suit.

Yup, me too. If they want to give him a Flash suit to differentiate him from Wally that old suit was perfect.

Oh and on your above post about Kyle giving his ring to Major Force, I don't remember it but that's because I had given up on his run by then. By that point, Kyle Rayner was more the guy who was appearing in JLA or elsewhere in the DCU rather than in his own book.

I wasn't exactly thrilled with Judd Winnick's run on GL but would you agree that he at least did make Kyle a more confident hero?

[Ilash]

um Why are we talking about Wally West in a thread regarding Green Lantern ? :confused:

Because tangents are cool!






OK.






It was totally my fault.

[Matt]

I wasn't exactly thrilled with Judd Winnick's run on GL but would you agree that he at least did make Kyle a more confident hero?

I'm not sure about that but I do recall Winnick's run being worse than Marz's. Winnick seemed to make the title far more soap opera-ish some how and had some really ... bizarre elements to it; like the man-kini wearing female Guardian (who thankfully seems to have been completely forgotten).

[Ilash]

I'm not sure about that but I do recall Winnick's run being worse than Marz's. Winnick seemed to make the title far more soap opera-ish some how and had some really ... bizarre elements to it; like the man-kini wearing female Guardian (who thankfully seems to have been completely forgotten).

Oh yeah, in general it was a total mess. I just mean that Kyle was written as an experienced superhero.

[Darrell D.]

Oh yeah, in general it was a total mess. I just mean that Kyle was written as an experienced superhero.

To be honest, the only book that I liked Kyle's potrayal was JLA. Oh, and Hitman, for the giggles.

[AdamYJ]

like the man-kini wearing female Guardian (who thankfully seems to have been completely forgotten).

You mean Lianna? I believe she joined the Omega Men in their miniseries not too long ago.

[Raker616]

I have a hard time believing that anyone who can't stand Hal would be reading his book, considering that everything that Geoff has built with GL since Rebirth has been based on and is about Hal Jordan.

Maybe just when you weren't looking Hal actually became a guy you liked without even knowing it, because I don't care how great something is written if I don't like the character at least a little bit I would never read his book.

[lawman]

No matter how classic the 70s GL/GA run is, I really can't stand it. I can place myself in the times it was written, but I really hate Hal as a character during his hard-traveling hero quest years. Which is why I love Hal so much as a character now. He knows exactly who is and doesn't need to do anymore soul-searching.
That's one of the things I really dislike about Johns' portrayal of Hal. The O'Neil days were a bit before my time (although I've enjoyed them in reprint); I really started reading GL in the late '70s, just before Marv Wolfman's classic run. And one of the things I'd always liked about Hal, from then on through Wein's run and Englehart's and Jones's, was precisely the soul-searching aspect. Fearless? Yes. But that's not necessarily the same thing as self-assured. Hal was always questioning his life's path.

After all the years I waited for Hal to return, it's painful to say that Johns' version has lost what I liked most about him. His version of Hal comes across as macho, cocky, arrogant, sometimes downright thoughtless. An overgrown fratboy. He actually rejoined the military, for heaven's sake—something the Hal I knew was always far too independent-minded to do. Johns' Hal almost comes across as a Republican... something I thought he'd have outgrown back in the O'Neil days.

Or even the 90's Gerald Jones run, which cast Hal as a older, wiser character that had burned out on ego tripping cockyness for the most part and just wanted to find his place in the world.

I loved that Hal. This guy I can barely stand.
Hear, hear!

Very well said.I couldn't have put it any better. The 90s characterisation of Hal is wrong. Hal is not supposed to be the constant soul searcher. He is a man of action...
Why do you perceive a conflict there? The two things aren't contradictory. (Hell, just look at Spider-Man. Note that I'm not saying I want Hal to be as angsty as that, just offering Peter up as a counter-example to the implied dichotomy.)

One problem with Hal is that he's defined by a couple of traits - he's extremely strong willed and fearless. Basically, this combination usually results in someone who is pretty cocky.
An unskilled writer will either turn this sort of character into a bland two dimensional hero type, or a cocky, arrogant, unlikable jerk.
Yep. Not that I'd call Geoff Johns an "unskilled writer," exactly... but his talents definitely lie more along the lines of suspenseful plotting (and especially dramatic cliffhangers) rather than sophisticated characterization.

I think there's a great deal more to Hal than that.
The death of his father is certainly a driving force in his life; he alternates between being shaken to the core by it while it also played a major role in shaping who he is.
It never was until Johns got his hands on him. (And he apparently thinks that "parental death" is such a great source of character motivation that he's going back to the same well now with Barry Allen — not only a more explicit retcon than it was with Hal, but IMHO a major mistake in terms of Barry's character.)

His womanising ways (has anyone ever made a list of all the relationships/one night stands he's had?) act as a cover for his self doubts (which do exist, despite how much he tries to cover them) much like Oliver Queen.
I think this "trait" was a mistake for both Ollie and Hal. Both of them had been through multiple relationships in the past, yes, Hal even more than Ollie... but until the late '90s (for Ollie) and the current run (for Hal), they'd only been serial monogamists, not "womanizers." It's a cliché characteristic that makes it too easy for writers to take shortcuts.

[Babylon23]

What I find interesting about threads like these is how different people interpret the same story/characterisation.

I don't see John's depiction of Hal Jordan as boring or 2-dimensional at all. I think there's quite a bit of complexity to it. He certianly doesn't fall into the angst-ridden characterisation that defines 90% of comic characters these days but that doesn't mean there isn't depth to his character. It just manifests in different ways to most comic characters.

[Hullababy]

What I find interesting about threads like these is how different people interpret the same story/characterisation.

I don't see John's depiction of Hal Jordan as boring or 2-dimensional at all. I think there's quite a bit of complexity to it. He certianly doesn't fall into the angst-ridden characterisation that defines 90% of comic characters these days but that doesn't mean there isn't depth to his character. It just manifests in different ways to most comic characters.

Exactly. The GL/GA days were when Hal realized that things weren't as simple as he thought they were. But he has grown a lot from there. You can't expect a character to be stuck at the same place. How long was he supposed to go around "soul searching" ? His current portrayal has by no means made him two dimensional. The present arc is highly plot driven so you don't really expect Johns to be able to focus only on Hal. But secret origins showed that there was depth to his character. The present Hal is no longer "soul searching" because he is no longer running away from his life like he used to before.