Damian

[lepeos]

Now that he's going to be Robin, how are they going to explain yet another dark haired young athlete hanging round Wayne Manor? Is Dick going to adopt him?

[carabas]

Not having precognitive powers nor a time machine, I don't know.

[lepeos]

Not having precognitive powers nor a time machine, I don't know.

I hope someone who does sees this topic then

[Mia]

Does anyone know how Damian became Robin?

[BooCoo]

I've been waiting for someone to leave a baby at the doorstep, eventually...something like that's gotta happen.

[Blue Blazes]

Does anyone know how Damian became Robin?

he put on the costume.

hes been wearing it since early in Morrisons run, which really annoyed Tim and Dick. But now hes officially going to be Robin.

[F1uke]

I think this will be explained this week, in Batman and Robin #1, and if not, Winick's first issue back on Batman is supposed to explain all of BFTC..

[Mia]

he put on the costume.

hes been wearing it since early in Morrisons run, which really annoyed Tim and Dick. But now hes officially going to be Robin.

I hope this is explained beyond this reasoning. Damian is a brat and why Dick would want to work with him boggles my mind.

[WorstThingUS]

Aside from suspension of disbelief, why? It's like John Byrne's oddly logical reason for Superman having a successful secret identity: you'd never think he'd want to have one, so why would you look? And you'd never think Bruce Wayne was Batman so why would you associate him with what Batman does? Finally, given Bruce's playboy image would anyone be even remotely shocked by him having a kid show up (I don't see Damien pretending not to be Bruce's son for anyone)? The real question in Gotham would be "Only one?"

Personally, I love Damien. I love that Batman has an utter nutjob for a son. And clearly Dick is trying to save him to honor Bruce. He can't allow the last living piece of Bruce Wayne on the planet to be this sociopath. I personally thought they were setting up for it to be Dick and Tim against either Jason and Damien (all the sons of The Batman) or Hush and Damien. Now that would have been fun.

[Trey]

Aside from suspension of disbelief, why? It's like John Byrne's oddly logical reason for Superman having a successful secret identity: you'd never think he'd want to have one, so why would you look? And you'd never think Bruce Wayne was Batman so why would you associate him with what Batman does? Finally, given Bruce's playboy image would anyone be even remotely shocked by him having a kid show up (I don't see Damien pretending not to be Bruce's son for anyone)? The real question in Gotham would be "Only one?"

Personally, I love Damien. I love that Batman has an utter nutjob for a son. And clearly Dick is trying to save him to honor Bruce. He can't allow the last living piece of Bruce Wayne on the planet to be this sociopath. I personally thought they were setting up for it to be Dick and Tim against either Jason and Damien (all the sons of The Batman) or Hush and Damien. Now that would have been fun.

I don't understand why readers complain about Damien. He is a brat. A sadistic trained evil bastard child. But that's his character. He annoys others. Why do readers find him annoying?

I'm guessing he is the opposite of what most fans were like at his age. And he can get away with acting like that. So readers are really put off

[stillanerd]

There's one factor that we have to realize that could tie into Damien and that is this--as far as the world is concerned, Bruce Wayne is still alive. How? Remember Tommy Elliot surgically altered his appearance to make himself look like Bruce Wayne, and is essentially going to use the opportunity of the real Bruce's assumed "demise" to essentially take over his life. And remember the Battle for the Cowl teaser poster which shows a "Bruce Wayne" with bandages around his leg with his arms on Damien's shoulders? Well, I think that this was an indication that Tommy, as Bruce, is going to declare Damien is his son and heir.

It works like this, Dick Grayson is known as Bruce's ward, so the excuse is that he's taking care of the mansion while Bruce is out on business. Only he knows he can't keep up that charade forever. Likewise, Dick really has no way to explain Damien, so he's got to keep him at the batcave, which would annoy the little brat to no end. Perhaps even Talia will be there, looking after her son to ensure Dick is training him properly. Enter the announcement of showing Bruce Wayne on TV. Dick, of course, knows it's Tommy Elliot, and so he goes to confront him as Batman along with Damien.

But of course, Elliot expects this and when "Batman" and "Robin" arrive, Elliot tells the the plan truth--if Dick turns Elliot in as a fraud, that he's not the real Bruce Wayne, then people are going to wonder what happened to Bruce, and sooner or later, the truth will come out that the real Bruce Wayne was Batman, that the real Batman is dead, and the guy who is "Batman" now is Dick Grayson. Which means that Gotham will once again fall back into chaos once the criminal underworld realizes Dick isn't the real Batman. Since Dick can't turn him over to the police, nor can he put him in a secret prison like before, he's forced to keep up the charade that Tommy Elliot is Bruce Wayne. Elliot, however, will "allow" Dick to continue to operate as "Batman" as long as Dick leaves him alone. Dick is forced to reluctantly agree.

However, Damien, gets the bright idea of having Tommy Elliot, as Bruce, proclaim him as Bruce's long lost son and that Talia is the mother. So, at a press conference, Elliot, as Bruce, reveals his secret mistress, Talia, and their son, Damien, and that he and Talia plan to marry in order to properly raise the boy. Again, Dick can't do a thing without exposing everything and jeopardizing all of Gotham. And, of course, Alfred gets really upset at Dick for compromising like this. And of course, since Damien wants to be Batman and take his rightful place as his father's heir, scheming with Elliot is just a further step towards this goal.

[Captain Jim]

There's one factor that we have to realize that could tie into Damien and that is this--as far as the world is concerned, Bruce Wayne is still alive. How? Remember Tommy Elliot surgically altered his appearance to make himself look like Bruce Wayne, and is essentially going to use the opportunity of the real Bruce's assumed "demise" to essentially take over his life. And remember the Battle for the Cowl teaser poster which shows a "Bruce Wayne" with bandages around his leg with his arms on Damien's shoulders? Well, I think that this was an indication that Tommy, as Bruce, is going to declare Damien is his son and heir.

No offense, but I'll be very surprised if this happens.

[stillanerd]

No offense, but I'll be very surprised if this happens.

None taken. And perhaps he may not happen this way. But the ingredients are certainly there. You've got Tommy Elliot pretending he's Bruce Wayne. You have Dick Grayson pretending to be Batman in order to keep Gotham from falling into chaos from the criminal underworld. Since the world doesn't know Bruce Wayne was the real Batman, and with Tommy Elliot passing himself off as Bruce Wayne, he pretty much can operate without impunity unless Dick wants to risk toppling everything down. You've got Damien who wants to be Batman himself and take his rightful inheritance as Bruce Wayne's son. You have the fact that there's no real cover story to explain away Damien. And we seen the "Battle for the Cowl" poster showing "Bruce's" arms on Damien's shoulders--stands to reason it would make sense if "Bruce" claimed Damien as his son and heir.

[Name Already Taken]

I hope this is explained beyond this reasoning. Damian is a brat and why Dick would want to work with him boggles my mind.

Grayson just seems like the type of guy. He has seen both good and bad aspects of mentorship from his own experience, and from Bruce, he has seen the results of both good (Tim) & bad (Jason) parenting.

I'm pretty sure he knows Damien is a psycho through and through, but Dick is the eternal optimist. He is trying to prevent him from going the wrong way, otherwise he could very well wind up like Jason without that kind of positive reinforcement.

[numberONE]

Name Already Taken you make a good point on why Dick would take Damian under his wing, especially what you say about Damian possibly growing up to be the next Jason Todd Batman.

And stillanerd, I like your idea. That has lots of story potential. The only part I don't like is Mrs. Talia Elliot . Like she'd agree to that!

[lepeos]

I think because they left the whole paternity test thing un-answered that Damian isn't actually Bruce's son, which Bruce knows (knew?), but probably instructed Dick to train him, I mean who better to train someone to be Robin, than the first one?

[Lorendiac]

I don't understand why readers complain about Damien. He is a brat. A sadistic trained evil bastard child. But that's his character. He annoys others. Why do readers find him annoying?

I'm guessing he is the opposite of what most fans were like at his age. And he can get away with acting like that. So readers are really put off

Are you suggesting that fans who loudly criticize Damian are secretly jealous because he can kill The Spook, and attempt to kill Tim, and just get off with a slap on the wrist, and they weren't allowed to do that sort of thing at the same tender age? Or did I misunderstand something? :confused:

A few days ago, over on DC's own Batman board, someone had started a thread by simply asking people to explain "why you don't like Damian." I responded with the following:


__________________

I'll try to list the reasons why I don't feel happy whenever I see him pop up in another comic book story.

1. He was originally advertised as being the same baby boy who appeared briefly in Mike Barr's "Son of the Demon," which I didn't like. So that was already one point against him.

2. But it rapidly became clear that Grant Morrison didn't remember how the plot had gone in "Son of the Demon" and didn't bother to find a copy and refresh his memory before writing contradictory material about Damian's conception. (He has admitted this himself, after the fact.) So from Day One, Damian's existence reflects "an accidental retcon which mangled the continuity of the story to which it was supposedly a sequel." As a rule of thumb, I don't like "accidental retcons" to old stories. (Even if I was none too crazy about the old story in the first place, I still like to think that any retcons to that material are being done by a writer who actually has a clue what he's doing!)

3. I generally dislike stories in which a superhero suddenly discovers he has a long-lost illegitimate child.

4. I also dislike the idea that a superhero has basically been a "deadbeat dad" or "absentee father" for the last several years. (I know that in this case, Batman wasn't deliberately ignoring his son, since he didn't know the kid existed, but it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.)

5. Ra's al Ghul and Talia have both demonstrated good sets of social skills over the years -- they are not the nicest people in the world, but they do know how to interact successfully with "normal" people . . . people who aren't highly trained martial artists, aren't cold-blooded killers, aren't costumed "heroes" or "villains," et cetera. It staggers the imagination to think that they deliberately raised Damian to be so much more clueless about "normal social skills" than they are.

6. Even aside from the "bad social skills" thing, I have various reasons for disliking the entire concept that Damian has been raised to be "all the assassin that he can be!" One of those reasons is that it looks like a near-ripoff of Cassandra Cain's origin, with the most important difference being that she actually rejected that mission statement as soon as she got her first real taste of what it's like to use lethal force on a human being.

7. Related to that last point: When a newly introduced character does his best to murder Tim Drake during the new guy's first story arc, I'm probably going to see the new guy as an unlikeable villain from that point forward.

8. The "mystery" of what DNA testing says about Damian's genetic relationship to Batman has been left hanging for far too long, and thereby makes me progressively less interested in whatever the answer will turn out to be, if that answer is going to be shared with us only years after it should have been! Logically, Bruce should have arranged for such tests as soon as he took Damian back to Gotham, and should have promptly shared the results with everyone else in the "family" as soon as they came in from the lab (which probably would have happened during that first four-issue story arc which introduced Damian). Stretching the problem out for a couple of years, playing such coy games as "Bruce knows what the lab said, and Alfred knows what the lab said, but they aren't going to share it with anyone else anytime soon," is just ridiculous -- and makes me wonder what Morrison is trying to hide about his Pet Character, Damian. (If the answer is: "There's nothing to hide -- Damian's pedigree is exactly what Talia says it is" -- then the whole coyness about this looks even dumber than it would otherwise.)

9. I've taken it for granted from the beginning that Damian basically is just a Walking, Talking Plot Device for something Morrison intends to do at a later date . . . and after that Big Plot Twist is over and done with, the Walking, Talking Plot Device will have outlived his usefulness. Perhaps he'll die or otherwise be "kicked into comic book limbo" at the end of Morrison's run, as part of whatever Morrison thinks he's still building up to . . . or else he (Damian) will be shoved offstage very fast after Morrison is gone, as "Damage Control" by Morrison's successor, if Grant doesn't tidy up that loose end himself as he writes the final issue of his run.

10. I haven't been buying any Batman comics these last few months, but I don't remember the last time I saw Damian do anything particularly likeable to make me warm up to him.

There are probably other reasons which I'm forgetting, but those will do for now.

[gocryemokid]

While Damian doesn't quite fit in with Tim and Dick I think that's what's going to make him so interesting. I'm excited to see how he does in B&R, otherwise I'm kinda on the fence with his character. He was a total tool in BFTC I didn't like that. I did like him in Batman and Son though. I guess we'll have to wait this one out

[F1uke]

10. I haven't been buying any Batman comics these last few months, but I don't remember the last time I saw Damian do anything particularly likeable to make me warm up to him.


He saved Tim's life at the end of Battle for the Cowl

[carabas]

2. But it rapidly became clear that Grant Morrison didn't remember how the plot had gone in "Son of the Demon" and didn't bother to find a copy and refresh his memory before writing contradictory material about Damian's conception. (He has admitted this himself, after the fact.) So from Day One, Damian's existence reflects "an accidental retcon which mangled the continuity of the story to which it was supposedly a sequel".Considering that Son Of The Demon hasn't been part of continuity for, I dunno, two decades or so, I don't see how this particular point matters anyway.

[Lorendiac]

He saved Tim's life at the end of Battle for the Cowl

Well, that was a good thing to do, but I have seen him fight other bad guys before, etc. I don't think that proves how "likeable" he is. (The Punisher has killed zillions of bad guys, and saved the lives of heroes or innocent bystanders on various occasions, but that doesn't make me love him like a brother!)

[Jorriss]

I don't vehemently dislike him but his main saving factor now is Dick Grayson is Batman lending himself to Robin. Before, he didn't have a place in this mythos. I'll like him more, though I dont know why this matters, if Batman II flat out puts him in his place.

[Lorendiac]

Considering that Son Of The Demon hasn't been part of continuity for, I dunno, two decades or so, I don't see how this particular point matters anyway.

Contradictions of "Son of the Demon" in Damian's origin story wouldn't matter a bit if Morrison and others at DC hadn't insisted (back around 2006) on telling us over and over that "Son of the Demon" did in fact matter because it was being used as the foundation for Morrison's first story arc on the Batman title!

If Morrison had just said, "I'm playing around with my own ideas for how a child of Batman and Talia might happen, but it's not really based on 'Son of the Demon; it's something new and different,'" then I would have said, "Fine, I'll do my best to compartmentalize and not even worry about 'Son of the Demon' as I read and judge your first few issues." But he chose to claim otherwise.

[WorstThingUS]

I think what people are missing are the inherent, hopefully-interesting, conflicts that are going to arise as Dick tries to teach Damien his own closer-to-Superman type of morality to someone who was raised according to Ra's Al Ghul's morality by his mother. He's actually done this before, though I'm sure most people missed it as it was during Devin Grayson's hideous tenure on Nightwing. That time it was The Ravager he was trying to save. A duty he shoved off on Tim and I hope that's brought up during the disagreement he and Tim are clearly going to have over Dick trying to save Damien.

[Vic Vega]

I think what people are missing are the inherent, hopefully-interesting, conflicts that are going to arise as Dick tries to teach Damien his own closer-to-Superman type of morality to someone who was raised according to Ra's Al Ghul's morality by his mother. He's actually done this before, though I'm sure most people missed it as it was during Devin Grayson's hideous tenure on Nightwing. That time it was The Ravager he was trying to save. A duty he shoved off on Tim and I hope that's brought up during the disagreement he and Tim are clearly going to have over Dick trying to save Damien.

But Dick did have a modicum of control over Ravager(if only because she was crushing on him). He has none over Damien. And considering how well Dick and Tim work together, I don't see him taking on Damien as a sidekick. He showed no interest (besides annoyance) in him before now.

You'd think Talia's kid would of ended up more contemplative and ruthless and not the wild litte psycho we've been seeing.

[numberONE]

I don't usually hate fictional characters, and I don't hate Damian, either. Mind you, I haven't read the ''Batman and Son'' arc.

[WorstThingUS]

But Dick did have a modicum of control over Ravager(if only because she was crushing on him). He has none over Damien. And considering how well Dick and Tim work together, I don't see him taking on Damien as a sidekick. He showed no interest (besides annoyance) in him before now.

I think he will have some control over Damien based on Dick's status as the first Robin. Damien wanted to be the Robin to his father's Batman and Dick clearly set that standard, but unlike Tim, Dick isn't a threat because he a) clearly abandoned the Robin role and b) was never adopted by Bruce.
Granted, this is based on nothing but my own observations and nothing Morrison or anyone else has said.


You'd think Talia's kid would of ended up more contemplative and ruthless and not the wild litte psycho we've been seeing.

Well, he got the ruthless part at least, having tried to kill Tim out of jealousy.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

and b) was never adopted by Bruce.

Dick was adopted by Bruce, as an adult. It was in Batman: Gotham Knights # 21.

Bruce has adopted Dick, Jason, Tim and Cassandra.

[Earl of the RCs]

Re: "5. Ra's al Ghul and Talia have both demonstrated good sets of social skills over the years -- they are not the nicest people in the world, but they do know how to interact successfully with "normal" people . . . people who aren't highly trained martial artists, aren't cold-blooded killers, aren't costumed "heroes" or "villains," et cetera. It staggers the imagination to think that they deliberately raised Damian to be so much more clueless about "normal social skills" than they are. "

Ra's raised him in order to possess his yougner stronger body, wiping out Damian's mind. Ie he didnt give a rats what Damian's personality was, as long as his body/muscle memory was in great shape. Talia has stated their were great periods of time where she didnt have access to Damian because of all the various LoA shenanigins. ANd its perfectly within character for her to raise a spoiled brat. She's a spoiled brat herself.

Also, Damian showed a great deal of respect (for a spoiled ninja brat) for Dick in the ressurection arc. Admitting to himself that he was screwing up. (he refused to admit he was screwing up in comparison to Tim though).

[Waterlily]

I like bratty characters, where is a good place to start reading about Damien?

[dreyga2000]

5. Ra's al Ghul and Talia have both demonstrated good sets of social skills over the years -- they are not the nicest people in the world, but they do know how to interact successfully with "normal" people . . . people who aren't highly trained martial artists, aren't cold-blooded killers, aren't costumed "heroes" or "villains," et cetera. It staggers the imagination to think that they deliberately raised Damian to be so much more clueless about "normal social skills" than they are.



He's not clueless about social skills, he just ignores the because he thinks he's special all little kids do.... He's just spoiled... I know alot of little kids how have smug arrogant attitudes like him... Someone needs to dicipline him properly... That's all...

[carabas]

I like bratty characters, where is a good place to start reading about Damien?
The beginning of Grant Morrison's run on Batman: "Batman and Son".

[Waterlily]

The beginning of Grant Morrison's run on Batman: "Batman and Son".

Thank you, I'll hunt it down tomorrow.

[Lemurion]

If Damian Wayne were a real person I would not like him.

However, as Robin to Dick Grayson's Batman I enjoy reading about him.

[Lorendiac]

He's not clueless about social skills, he just ignores the because he thinks he's special all little kids do.... He's just spoiled... I know alot of little kids how have smug arrogant attitudes like him... Someone needs to dicipline him properly... That's all...

So your position is that he knows about to socialize with others in the "normal" and "accepted" fashions -- except he never bothers to use those skills? I'm not sure where you get that impression of him, but even if you're right, it seems to me that the distinction between "not knowing decent social skills" and "never bothering to use decent social skills" is very thin indeed!

[dreyga2000]

So your position is that he knows about to socialize with others in the "normal" and "accepted" fashions -- except he never bothers to use those skills? I'm not sure where you get that impression of him, but even if you're right, it seems to me that the distinction between "not knowing decent social skills" and "never bothering to use decent social skills" is very thin indeed!

More accurately, that just a spoiled kid every family has one...

[jgiannantoni05]

Anyone like me think it doesn't fit Batman history/tradition for Batman to have a biological son? It is just my humble opinion.
________
Grape Ape Pictures (http://trichomes.org/marijuana-strains/grape-ape)

[carabas]

It definitely fits both Batman history and tradition.
His alternates from Earth Whatever had all sorts of ofspring. There's tradition.
And he did of course have that kid with Talia in the eighties. So it's historical.

[dreyga2000]

Anyone like me think it doesn't fit Batman history/tradition for Batman to have a biological son? It is just my humble opinion.

In the old..old Bat Stories... there was a recurring thing were they would depict fictional stories of a future Batman and Robin...

In which Dick Grayson had replaced Bruce as Batman and Bruce's son became Robin...

It would to some extent that possible future has come to pass...

http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/batman/131-1.jpg

[Violently Apathetic]

5. Ra's al Ghul and Talia have both demonstrated good sets of social skills over the years -- they are not the nicest people in the world, but they do know how to interact successfully with "normal" people . . . people who aren't highly trained martial artists, aren't cold-blooded killers, aren't costumed "heroes" or "villains," et cetera. It staggers the imagination to think that they deliberately raised Damian to be so much more clueless about "normal social skills" than they are.



Just wanted to interject and point out that neither Talia or Ra's had much of a hand in raising Damian. He never met Ra's, and he stated that his mother wasn't around much when he was growing up (I assume both she and Ra's took an interest when Damian was old enough to become a player in their little act), which leads to me to believe he was mostly raised by underlings and was (in Batman's words) 'brutalized, indoctrinated and used as a weapon...'

As someone else said, his original purpose was never to be a well rounded human being, but a vessel for Ra's Al Ghul's soul, nothing more. Since he wasn't expected to really interact with people they probably didn't stress learning grace and civility. Instead I figure they told him what he wanted to hear in order to keep him happy. If he thought he had one destiny he likely would be less suspicious and not realize his actual purpose. Frankly I'm a little surprised that hasn't given him a complex.

[Mia]

"

Ra's raised him in order to possess his yougner stronger body, wiping out Damian's mind. Ie he didnt give a rats what Damian's personality was, as long as his body/muscle memory was in great shape. Talia has stated their were great periods of time where she didnt have access to Damian because of all the various LoA shenanigins. ANd its perfectly within character for her to raise a spoiled brat. She's a spoiled brat herself.

Also, Damian showed a great deal of respect (for a spoiled ninja brat) for Dick in the ressurection arc. Admitting to himself that he was screwing up. (he refused to admit he was screwing up in comparison to Tim though).

Talia may be arrogant and supercilious. But she does have manners and self control. Damian has none and half the time he behaves as if he is looking for a good slap.

Apart from the fact that Talia and Ra’s are cultured and refined. I find it hard to believe that they would allow Damian to be grow up to be so un-mannerly and un-disciplined. Not only is un-becoming for a member of their family to behave that way. It makes it completely impossible for them to control Damian or to even rely on him, since he is such a loose cannon.

[Violently Apathetic]

Apart from the fact that Talia and Ra’s are cultured and refined. I find it hard to believe that they would allow Damian to be grow up to be so un-mannerly and un-disciplined. Not only is un-becoming for a member of their family to behave that way. It makes it completely impossible for them to control Damian or to even rely on him, since he is such a loose cannon.

Ra's doesn't even consider him a person, much less a member of the family. I doubt he cares how 'un-becoming' he is, so long as he had a strong body, quick reflexes and a sharp mind to draw upon. It's not like he planned to show the kid off at society functions.

As for control, they did seem to have an iota of control before Damian met Batman. Ra's, due to his desperation, moved too quickly and spooked Damian, who now had someone to run to (Batman).

[marvelprince]

Not only is un-becoming for a member of their family to behave that way. It makes it completely impossible for them to control Damian or to even rely on him, since he is such a loose cannon.

Well thats pretty much what Talia said to Bruce before dumping Damien on him, that he's too much and she has no control over him anymore.

[Mia]

Ra's doesn't even consider him a person, much less a member of the family. I doubt he cares how 'un-becoming' he is, so long as he had a strong body, quick reflexes and a sharp mind to draw upon. It's not like he planned to show the kid off at society functions.

And all of this counts for nothing if he has no discipline and self-control.




As for control, they did seem to have an iota of control before Damian met Batman. Ra's, due to his desperation, moved too quickly and spooked Damian, who now had someone to run to (Batman).

No they didn't. Here's a quote from Talia in Batman 656


But the boy is growing beyond even my control now…..He lacks discipline and the guiding hand of a great man.


It's clear that Damian was never given any discipline and was allowed to behave like a little holligan.

[Subotai]

I think it's a terrific opportunity for a good character arc - to have Damien, over the course of several years (minimum), mature and grow and absorb some of the positive, benign qualities of Tim, Dick, Alfred, and Bruce. He doesn't have to turn into Clark Kent - but hopefully some good writing can make him a little more 3-dimensional.

[Will44]

I hope this is explained beyond this reasoning. Damian is a brat and why Dick would want to work with him boggles my mind.

Dick would want to work with him because he's a misguided individual who has a lot of potential.

Let's face it. Bruce saved Dick Grayson's life by adopting the boy. The least Dick can do is return the favor and try to save Damien.

[Mia]

Dick would want to work with him because he's a misguided individual who has a lot of potential.

I disagree on that. Bruce might thave taught Dick to be a fighter and detective. But Dick's being a well adjusted 'nice guy' is all due to his upbringing with his parents and extended family at the circus. Because Dick was so easy going and adaptable it would make it much easier for Bruce to work with and train.

Damian on the other hand is an arrogant, unpleasant little know-it-all. Trying to train him would be like pulling teeth.



Let's face it. Bruce saved Dick Grayson's life by adopting the boy. The least Dick can do is return the favor and try to save Damien.


I don't know where Ra's and Talia are in all of this. But the only reason I can see Dick taking Damian under his wing is if Talia is indisposed and Dick feels a need to look after him out of some loyalty to Bruce....not to mention due to the fact that's the kind of guy Dick is. He helps people whether they deserve it or not.

[Violently Apathetic]

And all of this counts for nothing if he has no discipline and self-control.

And his lack of discipline and self control would count for nothing once his body was taken over by Ra's, which was their original plan for him. He wasn't a 'son' or a 'grandson,' he was 'space for rent.' Yes, it would have been easier to force him to give up his own free will had they focused their attention on disciplining him, but neither had a hand in raising him, they both implied as much. He was like a side project.


No they didn't. Here's a quote from Talia in Batman 656...

Yes, growing beyond control now, implying she had control at one time. Later in the same issue he says he was sent to Wayne Manor against his will, implying that he was there at the behest of someone else, most likely his mother. With the exception of that particularly poor issue of Robin she does seem to know how to deal with him when they are together (for the most part). He does lack proper, structured discipline, but Talia could still influence him, which is surprising in and of itself given the fact she wasn't a real presence in his life.

[Mia]

And his lack of discipline and self control would count for nothing once his body was taken over by Ra's, which was their original plan for him. He wasn't a 'son' or a 'grandson,' he was 'space for rent.' Yes, it would have been easier to force him to give up his own free will had they focused their attention on disciplining him, but neither had a hand in raising him, they both implied as much. He was like a side project.

If he was a piece of 'rent' then why invest time in him? Why explain to Batman that he is his son and give him up to Batman to discipline him. Why not just mindwipe him. Further even if he is just 'space for rent' you would still need to set instill some kind of discipline in him so that he can be controlled.




Yes, growing beyond control now, implying she had control at one time. Later in the same issue he says he was sent to Wayne Manor against his will, implying that he was there at the behest of someone else, most likely his mother. With the exception of that particularly poor issue of Robin she does seem to know how to deal with him when they are together (for the most part). He does lack proper, structured discipline, but Talia could still influence him, which is surprising in and of itself given the fact she wasn't a real presence in his life.

From what I saw she never had control of him to begin with. And even if Talia could not have controlled him. She would have given him to one of her underlings to foster to teach. For Talia to allow Damian to have no discipline is out of character not to mention stupid.

[Violently Apathetic]

If he was a piece of 'rent' then why invest time in him? Why explain to Batman that he is his son and give him up to Batman to discipline him. Why not just mindwipe him. Further even if he is just 'space for rent' you would still need to set instill some kind of discipline in him so that he can be controlled.

Because they wanted a highly trained (mentally and physically) young person, an empty shell might be a little difficult to train, though I don't know the specifics of mind wiping. I suppose they could have mind wiped him just prior to meeting Ra's, but by then Talia already had a change of heart (and I suspect Ra's Al Ghul's own arrogance made him believe that the kid would willing give himself up).

Controlling him wouldn't be an issue once he was under Ra's sway, prior to that I think they just took for granted the fact he might develop contrary to what they had planned. Heck, Ra's seemed to expect him to have no concept of self preservation.


From what I saw she never had control of him to begin with. And even if Talia could not have controlled him. She would have given him to one of her underlings to foster to teach..

I assume that's what she did, since it's obvious she didn't raise him herself. If I were her I'd be asking that underling for my money back.


For Talia to allow Damian to have no discipline is out of character not to mention stupid.

I agree. I'm not actually trying to say 'Morrison wrote Talia well, and here's why...' only 'I think his unruly behavior makes sense in the canon that we have been presented with in this particular story, and here's why...' It assumes a lot about Talia (none of it particularly good), but unfortunately that's how she's been written.

Frankly the sooner Morrison gets his hooks out of Talia the better.

[Earl of the RCs]

I dont think its out of charcter for Talia at all. She's always had a ridiculous sense of entitlement, Ive met lots of people like that in real life who just seem to expect their children will turn out alright regardless of what they actually try to do about it. The improtant thing is that she finally saw the truth that her son'd be better off with his Dad. If his dad's not around then his family, rather than her own, is still her preference.

[synthetikdemon]

Dick was adopted by Bruce, as an adult. It was in Batman: Gotham Knights # 21.

Bruce has adopted Dick, Jason, Tim and Cassandra.

Bruce is the Angelina Jolie/BradPitt of the DC universe!

[gocryemokid]

I think damian is just conditioned to be a crazy, spoiled, lethal little kid. Look at who raised him during the most impressionable years of his life - talia and the league of assassins. Damian can't help the way he is, the fact that he intends to change his ways is monumental in his deconditioning. The bat-family will eventually set him right I'm pretty sure of it. I think GM is making him this way to show us the transformation from a child of the league of assassins to bat-child, all the while having him grow on us little by little, issue by issue.

[AiyokuSama]

If he was a piece of 'rent' then why invest time in him?

This was explained in the recent Ra's series. Damian wasn't just a body. When his grandfather took over, Ra's would also possess the boy's skills and knowledge as well as his body. The series actually shows Talia instructing Damian in his grandfather's life story on that man's orders.

[WorstThingUS]

I still don't understand the question of why Dick is taking care of Damien. You're seriously asking "Why Dick Grayson is taking care of Bruce Wayne's son?" That's like questioning why Clark would take care of him. It pretty much answers itself.

[hYPE]

There's one factor that we have to realize that could tie into Damien and that is this--as far as the world is concerned, Bruce Wayne is still alive. How? Remember Tommy Elliot surgically altered his appearance to make himself look like Bruce Wayne, and is essentially going to use the opportunity of the real Bruce's assumed "demise" to essentially take over his life. And remember the Battle for the Cowl teaser poster which shows a "Bruce Wayne" with bandages around his leg with his arms on Damien's shoulders? Well, I think that this was an indication that Tommy, as Bruce, is going to declare Damien is his son and heir.

It works like this, Dick Grayson is known as Bruce's ward, so the excuse is that he's taking care of the mansion while Bruce is out on business. Only he knows he can't keep up that charade forever. Likewise, Dick really has no way to explain Damien, so he's got to keep him at the batcave, which would annoy the little brat to no end. Perhaps even Talia will be there, looking after her son to ensure Dick is training him properly. Enter the announcement of showing Bruce Wayne on TV. Dick, of course, knows it's Tommy Elliot, and so he goes to confront him as Batman along with Damien.

But of course, Elliot expects this and when "Batman" and "Robin" arrive, Elliot tells the the plan truth--if Dick turns Elliot in as a fraud, that he's not the real Bruce Wayne, then people are going to wonder what happened to Bruce, and sooner or later, the truth will come out that the real Bruce Wayne was Batman, that the real Batman is dead, and the guy who is "Batman" now is Dick Grayson. Which means that Gotham will once again fall back into chaos once the criminal underworld realizes Dick isn't the real Batman. Since Dick can't turn him over to the police, nor can he put him in a secret prison like before, he's forced to keep up the charade that Tommy Elliot is Bruce Wayne. Elliot, however, will "allow" Dick to continue to operate as "Batman" as long as Dick leaves him alone. Dick is forced to reluctantly agree.

However, Damien, gets the bright idea of having Tommy Elliot, as Bruce, proclaim him as Bruce's long lost son and that Talia is the mother. So, at a press conference, Elliot, as Bruce, reveals his secret mistress, Talia, and their son, Damien, and that he and Talia plan to marry in order to properly raise the boy. Again, Dick can't do a thing without exposing everything and jeopardizing all of Gotham. And, of course, Alfred gets really upset at Dick for compromising like this. And of course, since Damien wants to be Batman and take his rightful place as his father's heir, scheming with Elliot is just a further step towards this goal.

would be great story telling if that did happen!

[KandouErik]

You know they actually had an issue where some government employes where investigating Wayne. Cassandra Cain suddenly being there didn't help ward off suspicion. At the end they finally decided that Wayne was too important a person to throw accessions at without hard evidence.

I think it was an issue in Gotham Knights.

[Mercurialblonde]

Damian may be kind of bratty, but for anyone who read Batman 666...he makes one whale of a great Batman.

I personally think he works a lot better than Tim would have as Dick's Robin. The relationship between Batman and Robin is now turned on it's head. The wayne is the robin. The mentor is the one with the good sense, who has to tempor his student.

And for all of it's flaws, BFTC gave us a very powerful reason why Dick would choose Damian to be Robin. Because he doesn't want Damian to become Jason Todd. He wants to succeed where Bruce failed.

And if 666 continuity is correct, he will.

[jgiannantoni05]

And if 666 continuity is correct, he will.
It's called an alternate future tale, not continuity. Morrison said he intended 666 to be a creative way to tease at future things he planned.

Succeed where Bruce failed...by selling his soul to The Devil and killing criminals. Right.
________
Knight rider forums (http://www.tv-gossip.com/knight-rider/)

[nepenthes]

It's called an alternate future tale, not continuity. Morrison said he intended 666 to be a creative way to tease at future things he planned.

keywords in bold!