Did Jesus Rise From The Dead?

[Laurence]

This is a transcript of a debate that occurred about three years ago between William Lane Craig and Bart D. Ehrman on the subject of the historical evidence for the physical ressurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. (You can find a full video of the debate on YouTube)

http://www.holycross.edu/departments/crec/website/resurrection-debate-transcript.pdf

It makes for interesting reading, but as is often the case in these theatrical theological sideshows, the debators are at cross-purposes: Craig is a Reformed epistemologist, and tries to put the burden of proof upon the skeptic. Ehrman is purely a historian and is unprepared for Craig's philosophical assaults. I think Craig wins on the day, as Ehrman does not address Swinburne's probability equations, which could, I think, be done so in favour of the skeptic.

If two Bibical scholars can't come to an accord over this, I doubt we will be able to shed any more light. But I thought at the very least it would make for an interesting discussion, as we have quite a few posters here who are interested in theological criticism, philosophy, history and so forth.

[the4thpip]

As Jesus was not a comicbook character, I think it is safe to say that when he really died, he stayed dead.

[KevinTBrown]

In fiction, anyone can come back from the dead.....

[PatrickG]

You guys sure seem convinced that our world isn't fictional.

I don't agree with that.

Furthermore, given both the way that memory seems to work (often in still images or impressions) and theories that there is a smallest unit of time, it even seems plausible to me that a comic book is a decent model for the universe.

[shrike]

I think he should have been resurrected into half Terminator, myself.

[Bob Violence]

It's faith.. you either believe it or you don't.

[Sean Walsh]

Considering we just ended an 8-year period where a man no one believed became president was indeed president, I think it's ok to say that some dead guy 2000 years ago came back from the dead for like a month.

[LewisH]

could he turn into a bat or not.

[Sean Walsh]

could he turn into a bat or not.

A few years back someone caught a bat in my old church and killed it.

So I'd love it if he could, because that means some dude at my old church prevented the Second Coming and spared us from Armageddon.

[IvCNuB4]

Deluge of Black Lantern jokes in 3 .. 2 .. 1 ....

[Naldo]

Christ or not, people that come back from the dead are zombies.

[Jeremi]

Christ or not, people that come back from the dead are zombies.

Or vampires.

[friginator]

Christ or not, people that come back from the dead are zombies.

One thing I've always believed was that Jesus MUST have been a zombie. He was beaten and mutilated, with his side cut open, yet when he wakes up 3 days later, he still has the wounds. This must mean that his body is NOT functioning in a normal way, and that he is only alive by essentially possessing his own corpse. For all we know, his ascension was necessary due to the problem of decompisition.

[Hybrid2]

from what i've read and seen in movie he was more of a ghost or angel*duh*

the whole idea of taking is bodie to heaven is preaty stupid.IMO

[friginator]

Well he's not really human to begin with. He's like a human/god hybrid.

[Typo Lad]

Or vampires.
Vampires are just posh zombies on a liquid diet and with a better tailor.

[section 8]

It's faith.. you either believe it or you don't.

well said.......

[tangentman]

It's faith.. you either believe it or you don't.

well said.......

*quietly checks the "Non-Believer" box*

[KevinTBrown]

Well he's not really human to begin with. He's like a human/god hybrid.

Jesus is like Wonder Woman?

[friginator]

You know, it's kind of encouraging that this thread has gone a page and a half without deteriorating into a big fight.

Jesus is like Wonder Woman?

Except Jesus was born, instead of made. He's more like Thor.

[4PointOh]

In fiction, anyone can come back from the dead.....

pwned!

........

[4PointOh]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/05/15/bible.critic/index.html

[Joe Acro]

Sounds interesting. I'll give it a look later.

[suttercain]

Short answer, no. Long answer, nope.

[Bob Violence]

*quietly checks the "Non-Believer" box*
You interrupt the "Jesus: Zombie or Vampire" debate to tag me and Section 8 as non-believers? :rolleyes:

[Naldo]

"Jesus: Zombie or Vampire" debate

This is really the crux (pardon the expression) of the matter.

Vampires have traditionally been portrayed as "posh". Plus, the whole Vampire/penetration thing is fairly sexual in nature.

Zombies are much more utilitarian in nature, really needing only to feed.

So while Jesus was known to feed the masses, he also turned water into wine (blood?)

Further discussion is definitely required.

[Charles RB]

The only way to prove it definatively is to find a crypt with "Jesus of Nazareth" written on it and see if there's a skeleton with nail holes in there.

Otherwise, it's done to whether you believe Jesus was the son of God or not. If you don't, he didn't; if you do, he did.

Vampires are just posh zombies on a liquid diet and with a better tailor.

Well, they are these days.Pre-Stoker, they were hideous, graveyard-dwelling, shrieking horrors that ate babies and stuff - and, in some cases, were basically zombies that hopped or were floating heads.

Then they got gentrified. I bet the Cullens from Twilight never dare speak about their ancestors who slept in dirt and ate stray cats.

[DoctorDoom]

I did a search for "Jesus hammer" and got this....

http://www.dailyserving.com/art/Hammer-und-Gogel-1-9-07.jpg

[Sean Walsh]

You know, it's kind of encouraging that this thread has gone a page and a half without deteriorating into a big fight.

That's what the Comm Board is for. :tongue:

YABS is about fun and neatoness.
(Unless the words "Rick Olney" are spoken :eek: )

[rick]

Jesus is the only person to ever rise from the dead that didn't smell bad or scare the shit out of his neighbors.

That more than anything else counts in his favor.

[friginator]

Jesus is the only person to ever rise from the dead that didn't smell bad or scare the shit out of his neighbors.

I think he did both, actually.

And yeah, he made his followers drink blood, and he rose from the dead, so he could be considered a vampire.

[DavidAllred]

(Stamen checks the believers box and goes back to the main page)

[PatrickG]

You know, it's kind of encouraging that this thread has gone a page and a half without deteriorating into a big fight.



Except Jesus was born, instead of made. He's more like Thor.

See... Every so often I have an idea for something I would expect to fit in with the lesser Alan Moore works, y'know those things like his late Supreme run where he conflated freemason Shriners with Islamic terrorists and had them riding around in Kirbyesque hover cars.

In this case, I could easily see a slightly younger Alan Moore going for either a Thor or a Wonder Woman take on Jesus. (And, really, I see WW as more of an overt messianic figure than Superman. Superman is a pagan sungod adventurer, a modern, post-Hamlet evolved take on a Jason and the Argonauts figure or an Odysseus. Just enter Clark Kent in an archery competition and the subtext becomes text.)

I imagine Moore's take would either involve a cripled, humble country missionary from the L'il Abner/Beverly Hillbillies South who sips from the Holy Grail to take on the form and powers of Jesus for an hour ala Thor... Kinda a play on transubstantiation/communion "this is my body"/"you are what you eat"... But it would build up into a Jesus Corps with each person taking on a different preconceived notion of Jesus.

Or he'd go the camp route and go with the WW analogy. Jesus comes back to prepare the world for the second coming and decides he has to go undercover. He takes the place of a fallen chaplain and becomes unlikely partners with Captain Martha Magdalene as they travel the globe. Maybe with a super-pet mule for triumphal entries and a secret hideaway inside the eye of a needle where he keeps relics from his adventures.

Moore always had an interesting habit of going with offensive/absurd spins on archetypal concepts and then playing them deadly straight.

One of those things I always expected him to do was a pastiche of Scooby Doo/Jabberjaw/Speed Buggy and the Sundance Kids with a group of pesky teenagers and an animal mascot (a turtle named Darwin?) who go travel around in H.G. Wells' time machine, unmasking various deities and religious figures.

ie.

"Oh! Muhammad was really old man Chang from the fireworks factory!"

"Curse you, infidels. I would have gotten away with it if it weren't for you and that pesky turtle."

or

"Jehovah is really... Moses?!"

"Yes! I had to scare the Egyptians into letting my people go somehow. So I build a massive miracle-making machine, using Aztec science. And I would have gotten away with it if it weren't for you kids and your pesky turtle."

Effectively the ultimate offensive deconstruction of that archetype wherein three to five kids and a mascot go around exposing superstition with their cleverness. The satire can cut both ways as, on one hand, you are, on the surface, denying spirituality and superstition just as Scooby Doo did, albeit in a more extreme way. However, the satire cuts the other way by making secularists out to be goofy stereotypes who rally around Darwin, poking fun at them by having them conform to the worst fundamentalist stereotypes of them. And ultimately poking fun at the adolescent tendency to, perhaps unfairly, try to deny their spiritual and cultural heritage.

The gods are fake and the kids unmasking them are too immature to accept that illusion may have its benefits.

[tangentman]

You interrupt the "Jesus: Zombie or Vampire" debate to tag me and Section 8 as non-believers? :rolleyes:

Actually, I was speaking for myself in reply to you two. :wink:

<--Non-Believer

Besides, Jesus isn't so easily classified. He isn't zombie or vampire--he's a Revenant! :biggrin:

[Cam63]

Jesus is the only person to ever rise from the dead that didn't smell bad or scare the shit out of his neighbors.

He was carrying a basket full of puppies at the time.

[Crowforge]

Briefly, then he went straight to heaven, truthfully I think he was just putting a brave face on being tortured to death.

[suttercain]

http://www.tshirthell.com/shirts/products/a127/a127_thumb.jpg

[Tobias March]

This is possibly the most delightfully blasphemous thread...EVAH! :tongue:

[Tobias March]

See... Every so often I have an idea for something I would expect to fit in with the lesser Alan Moore works, y'know those things like his late Supreme run where he conflated freemason Shriners with Islamic terrorists and had them riding around in Kirbyesque hover cars.

In this case, I could easily see a slightly younger Alan Moore going for either a Thor or a Wonder Woman take on Jesus. (And, really, I see WW as more of an overt messianic figure than Superman. Superman is a pagan sungod adventurer, a modern, post-Hamlet evolved take on a Jason and the Argonauts figure or an Odysseus. Just enter Clark Kent in an archery competition and the subtext becomes text.)

I imagine Moore's take would either involve a cripled, humble country missionary from the L'il Abner/Beverly Hillbillies South who sips from the Holy Grail to take on the form and powers of Jesus for an hour ala Thor... Kinda a play on transubstantiation/communion "this is my body"/"you are what you eat"... But it would build up into a Jesus Corps with each person taking on a different preconceived notion of Jesus.

Or he'd go the camp route and go with the WW analogy. Jesus comes back to prepare the world for the second coming and decides he has to go undercover. He takes the place of a fallen chaplain and becomes unlikely partners with Captain Martha Magdalene as they travel the globe. Maybe with a super-pet mule for triumphal entries and a secret hideaway inside the eye of a needle where he keeps relics from his adventures.

Moore always had an interesting habit of going with offensive/absurd spins on archetypal concepts and then playing them deadly straight.

One of those things I always expected him to do was a pastiche of Scooby Doo/Jabberjaw/Speed Buggy and the Sundance Kids with a group of pesky teenagers and an animal mascot (a turtle named Darwin?) who go travel around in H.G. Wells' time machine, unmasking various deities and religious figures.

ie.

"Oh! Muhammad was really old man Chang from the fireworks factory!"

"Curse you, infidels. I would have gotten away with it if it weren't for you and that pesky turtle."

or

"Jehovah is really... Moses?!"

"Yes! I had to scare the Egyptians into letting my people go somehow. So I build a massive miracle-making machine, using Aztec science. And I would have gotten away with it if it weren't for you kids and your pesky turtle."

Effectively the ultimate offensive deconstruction of that archetype wherein three to five kids and a mascot go around exposing superstition with their cleverness. The satire can cut both ways as, on one hand, you are, on the surface, denying spirituality and superstition just as Scooby Doo did, albeit in a more extreme way. However, the satire cuts the other way by making secularists out to be goofy stereotypes who rally around Darwin, poking fun at them by having them conform to the worst fundamentalist stereotypes of them. And ultimately poking fun at the adolescent tendency to, perhaps unfairly, try to deny their spiritual and cultural heritage.

The gods are fake and the kids unmasking them are too immature to accept that illusion may have its benefits.

Wait....isn't this Ultimate Thor though? (admittedly I never read Millar's *other* Jesus comic)

[Cam63]

Briefly, then he went straight to heaven, truthfully I think he was just putting a brave face on being tortured to death.

Rambo Jesus woulda sorted things.

[mgs]

It's faith.. you either believe it or you don't.
exactly.



........................

[Tobias March]

Rambo Jesus woulda sorted things.

.......see now I just want someone to come up with a Jesus-in-Vietnam parody.

"You weren't there man, you weren't there..! Fallen Angels coming out of the fucking trees!"

[Cam63]

exactly.



........................

and you can shrug about thousands of lives lost in a disaster as though they didn't mean much.

[mgs]

and you can shrug about thousands of lives lost in a disaster as though they didn't mean much.huh? :confused:

[Cam63]

.......see now I just want someone to come up with a Jesus-in-Vietnam parody.

"You weren't there man, you weren't there..! Fallen Angels coming out of the fucking trees!"

Too articulate, Tobe.

...Too articulate.

[Cam63]

huh? :confused:

Amnesia ?....

[mgs]

Amnesia ?....
except for your little 'rant' there, I have no idea what grudge you are apparently holding against me. If I said something to offend you in this thread I don't recall it? :confused:

[Cam63]

Think some more.

[mgs]

Think some more.
All I know is that I agree with Bob on the faith thing.

If you have a problem with me, you can take it to PM, or just out with it. Cause my conscious is pretty clear on what I've done here. :confused:

[Paul McEnery]

All I know is that I agree with Bob on the faith thing.

If you have a problem with me, you can take it to PM, or just out with it. Cause my conscious is pretty clear on what I've done here. :confused:

http://www.penguinpetes.com/images/Bob_Dobbs_approves.jpg

[Paul McEnery]

Wait....isn't this Ultimate Thor though? (admittedly I never read Millar's *other* Jesus comic)

But you HAVE to. There's a sequel and everything! And a movie deal! Buy it now!

And get a second-rate Omen riff with some lovely art by Peter Gross.

Where's the rest of my Saviour comics, that's what I want tot know.

[Cam63]

except for your little 'rant' there, I have no idea what grudge you are apparently holding against me. If I said something to offend you in this thread I don't recall it? :confused:

Tsunami thread
Swine flu thread

[Laurence]

Wait wait wait... Jesus caused Tsunamis and Swine Flu?

[Arkaengel]

Wait wait wait... Jesus caused Tsunamis and Swine Flu?
They were a side order to go with the loaves and the fishes.

On the all-important vampire-vs.-zombie issue, let us recall that noted mad scientist Hubert Farnsworth repeatedly made reference to "zombie Jesus" and did not allude to "vampiric Jesus" a single time. Can any of us deny that a bona fide mad scientist can use SCIENCE! to find out more about this issue than we can? No, we cannot, and thus is Jesus' zombie nature proven.

Now, it merely remains to decide whether Jesus was a shambling, mindless Night Of The Living Dead-type zombie, a hyperkinetic and highly aggressive 28 Days Later-style zombie, or a Shaun of the Dead-style video game playing zombie.

[Tobias March]

They were a side order to go with the loaves and the fishes.

On the all-important vampire-vs.-zombie issue, let us recall that noted mad scientist Hubert Farnsworth repeatedly made reference to "zombie Jesus" and did not allude to "vampiric Jesus" a single time. Can any of us deny that a bona fide mad scientist can use SCIENCE! to find out more about this issue than we can? No, we cannot, and thus is Jesus' zombie nature proven.

Now, it merely remains to decide whether Jesus was a shambling, mindless Night Of The Living Dead-type zombie, a hyperkinetic and highly aggressive 28 Days Later-style zombie, or a Shaun of the Dead-style video game playing zombie.


Don't forget Versus hyperzombies trapped in an eternal return!

http://gaijinnosekai.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/versus_large_2.jpg

[Dazzler]

Well, I think he did. It's all part of that "faith" thingie.

YMMV.

--Dazz

[tangentman]

With this particular debate raging, I've a wicked craving to hear Dallas Holmes' Gospel classic, "Rise Again", reimagined as a Skinny Puppy/Marilyn Mansonesque goth nightmare! :biggrin:

[Evan Waters]

If anything, vampires are Bizarro Jesii. They want to drink YOUR blood (and eat your flesh in the original mythology- they were more like modern zombies to start out anyway) and make you suffer for their sins.

[Naldo]

Staying on topic: I just resurrected this thread.

[Bob Violence]

Staying on topic: I just resurrected this thread.
But it's been dead for more than three days, all it's disciples have had to go out and get jobs.

[mgs]

Tsunami thread
Swine flu thread
ah, okay. but I did not kill anyone from these things. And I apologized for the thoughts on the tsunami thing. So....I still don't know what this has to do with 'faith'. :confused:

[DavidAllred]

But it's been dead for more than three days, all it's disciples have had to go out and get jobs.

Not all of them!

[Flying Saucers Over Oz]

Well, of course he didn't. He shed the corporeal form he'd taken upon this planet and resumed his thought-form as Master Morya to return to his homeworld of Venus to study and teach with the other Ascended Masters.

I mean, 'rose from the dead'? What do you think we are, stupid?