Agents of Atlas #4 - Spoilers

[jackolover]

I don't know if this 1958 backup story is in continuity or not. Ed Brubaker has given us a version of Bucky's history as told by the Russians, but this story contradicts that. What we have here, is the FBI holding the frozen bodies of Cap AND Bucky in a secret location, and Soviet agents had stolen them. It would put a whole different spin to what we know of Winter Soldier, which doesn't seem right, because Black Widow knows of Bucky being trained by the Russians. It must all get explained away as ramblings inside the mind of James Buchanan while Bob is mind reading him. Whatever the case, I'd like it to be that ICE was in continuity and the the US government did take out Cap and give him false memories. The US government know they can't kill Rogers because the Super Serum makes him immortal, like Osborn, so they have to store him away now and then, when Rogers' conscience makes him anti-establishment. It makes Cap a pretty pathetic puppet in the context of world super heroism.

As to the Cap plot from last issue, there is no explaination why Cap attacked the AoA helicopter, but he was determined to make the copter crash. It is after they knock Cap unconscious that Bob mind reads James and finds out James knows the New Avengers. Then they let Cap go and James returns to the NA and they plot a rematch with the Agents. Ms Marvel is still attending, so this is just after the Dr Strange storyline, but before the Ms Marvel issues where Carol can't use her powers because it hurts. This and next issue, have picked up as far as the stories go, from when Namora and Venus went away to Namoritas memorial. Now we have real live action, IN CONTINUITY, with the live NA. The meeting between the NA and the Agents will be one humdinger.

[CaptainCanada]

I don't know if this 1958 backup story is in continuity or not. Ed Brubaker has given us a version of Bucky's history as told by the Russians, but this story contradicts that. What we have here, is the FBI holding the frozen bodies of Cap AND Bucky in a secret location, and Soviet agents had stolen them. It would put a whole different spin to what we know of Winter Soldier, which doesn't seem right, because Black Widow knows of Bucky being trained by the Russians. It must all get explained away as ramblings inside the mind of James Buchanan while Bob is mind reading him.
No, those are 50s Cap and Bucky (Grand Director and Jack Monroe), the ones who later broke out of suspended animation in Englehart's run.

As to the Cap plot from last issue, there is no explaination why Cap attacked the AoA helicopterBecause they're the bosses of Atlas Corp, international crime syndicate.

[CyberHubbs]

Hah hah. Venus' powers wouldn't work on Hoover.

Oh, Jeff. You rapscallion, you.

[celticguy]

that actually is not what I would expect given the ancient greeks open mind about relationships you would think venus would be able to work her mojo accross the board.

[Michael P]

No, those are 50s Cap and Bucky (Grand Director and Jack Monroe), the ones who later broke out of suspended animation in Englehart's run.
Because they're the bosses of Atlas Corp, international crime syndicate.

But we have to be TOLD that, Cap. Explicitly, repeatedly, over as many pages as possible. The tapestry must be whole.

that actually is not what I would expect given the ancient greeks open mind about relationships you would think venus would be able to work her mojo accross the board.

Well, Hoover's not an ancient Greek, is he?

[CMBMOOL]

I must say i did enjoy the little connections to the main Marvel Universe that this series has taken itself into each issue. :tongue:

[skatalite]

I was confused as hell with 90 percent of this issue. I've never been a die-hard CapAm or Bucky fan, and I don't know all of their history, so, sucks for me. I felt like I was reading DC's "Final Crisis."

[Sighphi]

I loved the AoA mini and was extremely pumped when i heard about an on-going but four issues in and..... man, nothing is happening. All these issues have just been setups for later stuff.

We get two issues of that teleport story to get some explanation about how the original team broke up and the rest is just stuff that doesnt seem to be on the table for some time since it looks like we are now going to spend a couple issues messing with the NA.

They really need to get something going NOW or else this thing is going the way of the Eternals.

[coldstar]

I loved the AoA mini and was extremely pumped when i heard about an on-going but four issues in and..... man, nothing is happening. All these issues have just been setups for later stuff.

We get two issues of that teleport story to get some explanation about how the original team broke up and the rest is just stuff that doesnt seem to be on the table for some time since it looks like we are now going to spend a couple issues messing with the NA.

They really need to get something going NOW or else this thing is going the way of the Eternals.

Yeah... I have to say, I was pretty disappointed about this chapter. The others I didn't mind as much, but it seemed like a lot of what was being built up to was supposed to be in this issue... and it wasn't that great.

So now we know how the team broke up. And it doesn't tie at all to present continuity. And the hints that they'd run into Winter Soldier or something were completely off-base; it was just a tie-in to 50s Cap. Who is very unlikely to show up in this series... ever.

I was also disappointed by the "fight" with Bucky. I mean... they focused on it on the cover of two issues, and it turns out like this? It's not just that it was short and unfulfilling; frankly, it made Bucky seem lame. I mean... he shows up, downs the helicopter... then gets knocked off the helicopter, barely survives, gets grabbed by the ship, restrained by the robot, and mindprobed? Yes, this is a formidable team, but I was seriously unimpressed with his combat skills/decisions in this issue. He's being held by a robot... and he's got EMP charges in his arm. But no using them, 'course not. No actual skill with the fighting either, for the few instances in which he could use it. I mean, it's not as if you expected him versus the whole team to win, especially once Bob got involved... but the way it went down was seriously weak.

And I can't say I'm that impressed with the AoA's choices either. I mean, yeah, they want Osborn to "know" they're on his side... but picking a fight with the NA as their first move in town seems a bit dumb. At least get established first, and if you actually want to take him down, don't set up a fight that could actually take out either your team or a team of potential allies. I guess I'll wait and see how it works out, but I can't help but think there were better ways to set this up.

And agreement on the confusion factor... I've read and reread all of Bru's work, which covers pretty much everything you'd need to know, and the way they formatted it still confused the hell out of me. It feels like they forced this story, like they decided in advance what they wanted the AoA to know, and that they wanted a AoA/NA fight, and have been doing all of this just to set up for it. And not doing it that well.

I was really hopeful about this chapter, so maybe I'm being overly pessimistic since it didn't live up to my expectations. But seriously, this was pretty poorly scripted... they can do better. I hope they will, and soon. :frown:

[arp2008]

Hello, fellow CBR posters. I want to give this series a shot but I'm wary about making uneducated purchases with money being tight these day. So I wanted to ask of you, who I assume have been onboard since issue one, what Marvel comics would guys say this series had been on par with or better than in terms of story and keeping your interest from month to month since it debuted?

[DeadXMan]

How they pawn everyone, like Cap in this issue. Good old bucky, always a sucker for trap.

[striderhirryu2]

This book confuses the shit out of me. Can someone elaborate what's been happening since issue 2 because I'm trying to enjoy it and brickwalling my face after every chapter.

[coldstar]

This book confuses the shit out of me. Can someone elaborate what's been happening since issue 2 because I'm trying to enjoy it and brickwalling my face after every chapter.

So a large part of the confusingness is the flashback sections... which turn out to not really be related to the present-day events after all.

Flashbacks summary:

In 1958, Jimmy Woo's team (basically the same as current, but minus Namora and Temugin) was assigned to investigate some strange occurrances at Edwards Air Force base. There was a plane appearing out of nowhere, racing through an area, and then disappearing in a sonic boom. Marvel Boy investigates and discovers that the "pilot" appears to be a skeleton in the act of tracing a weird triangle/circle symbol on the window.

The team goes to a bar, where Jimmy meets Suwan, the Yellow Claw's daughter who he's in love with. They go off, and their teammates are attacked by weird Soviet agents. They don't do very well. Jimmy comes back, fails at saving them, and M-11 death-rays all the bad guys. They disentigrate, but leave behind strange red triangles, which Team Sometimes-Awesome pick up. In the confusion, Suwan's disappeared.

Suwan then calls Jimmy when everyone's back at the base and tries to convey something important about the triangles before being dragged away. They run to her rescue (bringing some air force pilot named Kit who's been tagging along) and dash through some crazy portal, finding themselves in the land of lots of skeletons. They go through another portal and reach some weird Soviet base where Suwan is being held prisoner. She explains that there was some Russian plot her father sent her to help with that involved stealing containers from the FBI.

The AoA go to investigate the containers and find what appear to be the preserved bodies of Steve and Bucky. In actuality, these are the crazy 50s versions, frozen in stasis by the US govt because they were going psychotic from dosing themselves with flawed SSS. Apparently the FBI had them in custody and the Russians had just then stolen them. But the team has no clue about that stuff. Just then, the Russians come in with a fleet of jets. They bail with the frozen 50s peoples; Kit, the tagalong pilot they brought ends up taking off in a stolen jet through a portal and accidentally making more portals and zapping back through time while appearing skeletal... basically, he's the cause of the mystery plane they were seeing.

Kit gets blown up by the US air force assuming he's hostile (the AoA gave them the expected coordinates he'd appear at next way before they realized who the skeleton was). The FBI confiscates the frozen Cap and Bucky along with the red triangles (which Bob later realizes were actually Mr. Lao's scales, able to generate protection from radiation in the portal-place and let people see portals through them). Not very impressed with the team's progress, President Hoover pretty much shuts down the team. Although it's not completely finalized, it's heavily implied that this is why they ended up going separate ways. The end.

So... present-time summary:

As is probably obvious, the AoA are trying to pretend they're still an evil world-dominating-type organization. Specifically, they're trying to pretend this to Osborn, so they can get close to him and... do something. On the side, Namora's having issues with having been revived just after her daughter died, and Temugin's having issues with them not really being evil.

So they show up in NY, and Cap, having apparently heard rumors of this evil organization moving in, shows up to ambush them. He downs the helicopter, but is taken down way too easily, then warped up into the mothership by Bob, who shows up to evac all his friends.

Bob mindscans him in a kinda spazzy way that results in strange hallucinations of events in ways that they didn't exactly happen. The AoA get the general idea--that this was Bucky, who took up Cap's mantle, and is now with the New Avengers (although Jimmy starts wondering if this is the Bucky he saw frozen in 1958). They all have some weird flashback moments that are apparently induced by Bob being really tired while trying to mindscan. Then they end up leaving Cap behind on a rooftop with implanted knowledge that will lead the NA to him. Apparently they want this to happen.


'k, done. Apologies for the summarizing of probably-obvious things; I wasn't sure which specific parts were confusing to people, so I erred on the side of way-too-much. :tongue:

[pharoahe22]

Yeah I was pretty confused reading this too. I picked this series up based off of good word of mouth, but I haven't enjoyed it as much as I wanted to. There have been some high points though. Hopefully things pick up next issue with my favorite team guest-starring.

[Sighphi]

So a large part of the confusingness is the flashback sections... which turn out to not really be related to the present-day events after all.

Flashbacks summary:

In 1958, Jimmy Woo's team (basically the same as current, but minus Namora and Temugin) was assigned to investigate some strange occurrances at Edwards Air Force base. There was a plane appearing out of nowhere, racing through an area, and then disappearing in a sonic boom. Marvel Boy investigates and discovers that the "pilot" appears to be a skeleton in the act of tracing a weird triangle/circle symbol on the window.

ETC
ETC
ETC

So it was a Twilight Zone episode....

[Beast]

Good issue.

And nice to see the flashback sequence finally make sense and connect with the main storyline.

Looking forward to the big fight between Atlas and the New Avengers.

[coldstar]

Good issue.

And nice to see the flashback sequence finally make sense and connect with the main storyline.

Looking forward to the big fight between Atlas and the New Avengers.

Yeah... that's were we disagree... :wink:

[pariah-1972]

This issue was veddy confusing.

[Beast]

Yeah... that's were we disagree... :wink:
Did you miss how it connects?

[coldstar]

Did you miss how it connects?

If there's any sizeable connection, yeah. Far as I saw, there were two things that almost relate to current events. But not really.

1. Them finding the 50s Cap and Bucky. This might relate... if they ever met 50s Cap, and if Jack Monroe wasn't dead. It gave Jimmy Woo a "???" moment wondering if the current Cap was the Bucky he found then... but since it wasn't, that's not an actual connection.

2. A 2-second almost-reference to Bucky's actual past when Suwan mentioned General Karpov. He was in charge of a lot of Soviet black ops programs, but took special pleasure in creating the Winter Soldier. But they never actually had Karpov or WS show up in the flashback, so again, that's not actually relevant.

[Michael P]

The relation between the 1958 story and the present day is that Mr. Lao and Temugin have access to the Dragon Corridor, as Bob points out on page 18. Stuff like this is why it's important to read all the words in a comic

"A Twilight Zone episode" is not a bad way to describe the 1958 story overall, but hey, I like "The Twilight Zone."

I didn't care much for the coloring this issue. It kind of obscured the stuff I like best about Clayton Henry's art.

[pariah-1972]

I really don't get this robot M-11 he rarely if ever speaks so we don't know how fully automated he is.
and it gets confusing cause sometimes he acts on his own accord but then sometimes he needs to be told what to do which makes it very inconsistent for me about how far developed he is, especially since the Marvel universe had fully functioning androids with human emotion back then too.

[coldstar]

The relation between the 1958 story and the present day is that Mr. Lao and Temugin have access to the Dragon Corridor, as Bob points out on page 18. Stuff like this is why it's important to read all the words in a comic

Didn't notice this. Good job spotting it, although they still didn't link the backstory as much as I'd hope. I mean, yeah, it's important to know they have this capability... but putting it in the middle of their "let's go pick a fight with the NA" plotline seems a bit off. It seemed like the only reason they realized it now was because finding out Cap is Bucky made Jimmy think of their '58 adventure, and Bob was tired enough to go into crazy psychic flashback mode with the group.

So the writers spent three issues on flashbacks just so the characters could realize something unrelated to their current activities, and said realization was spawned from a flashback induced from Bob passing out while mindscanning. Seems convoluted to me. I mean, yeah, this capability is valuable knowledge, but both the way they realized it and the ability itself seems to connect very little to the present day. They know how Temugin got into the ship. They might be able to use this transport method in the future--or have to stop Temugin and Mr. Lao using it behind their backs. That's all well and interesting, but it doesn't really deal directly with the whole "let's piss of the NA" plan that consists of their present-day-activities. At best, they'll figure out some trick with it that will help mildly mid-fight, but that seems impractical and unwieldy both as a plot device and an actual combat strategy.

(edit) And pariah-1972, they haven't been very clear about M-11. He's supposed to be a sentient robot with his own personality, morals, and initiative. But you're right, he rarely does anything without being either requested to or having it help fulfill his current goal. He rescues Namora... but doing so helps both the Yellow Claw and Jimmy, both of whom he was taking orders from at the time. Occasionally he'll react strongly to something, such as zapping Wolverine with lethal force in that short arc when it looked like Logan had just killed Jimmy, or getting in Namora's way when she was going to kill Osborn's representatives. But he doesn't speak often, which is an issue. Mostly-mute characters can work if they're given a strong personality through actions or nonvocal tells--take X-23 for example. But M-11 hasn't been characterized nearly enough for a character that doesn't talk. He often seems more like an actual drone-style robot than a character worth caring about.

[pariah-1972]

And i think im gonna agree with Coldstar that all these flashbacks are hurting the book a little and making things harder to follow.

I also am wondering what happened to Jeff Parker i liked the style he brought to the books but now we are getting two and three different artists and i like Clayton Henry, but he wasn't given much to do which is unfortunate cause i like the present day story more than the flashbacks.

Also if these guys are pretending to be bad does Osbourne even know that they all used to be Fbi or shield agents in the past but were fired? if he things they have gone rogue well i guess thats a reasonable assumption but if i where him i wouldn't be too trusting of them.
and does he know that Namora is on this team? cause i would think he would tell Namor about it just to see his reaction.

Also it would be fun to see the Dark Avengers fight against the Agents especially since they both have former Marvel Boys even tho they don't seem to be related from what i can tell.

[coldstar]

...I also am wondering what happened to Jeff Parker i liked the style he brought to the books but now we are getting two and three different artists and i like Clayton Henry, but he wasn't given much to do which is unfortunate cause i like the present day story more than the flashbacks.

Also if these guys are pretending to be bad does Osbourne even know that they all used to be Fbi or shield agents in the past but were fired? if he things they have gone rogue well i guess thats a reasonable assumption but if i where him i wouldn't be too trusting of them.
and does he know that Namora is on this team? cause i would think he would tell Namor about it just to see his reaction.

Also it would be fun to see the Dark Avengers fight against the Agents especially since they both have former Marvel Boys even tho they don't seem to be related from what i can tell.

Parker's still doing the writing. Kirk was the one on pencils for the miniseries.

Osborn knows pretty much what happened with all of them, with the exception of them pretending to be evil. He read Derek's report to SHIELD, and has doubtless done a little digging since then. Derek's report covered everything that happened in the miniseries up to the last chapter, and both SHIELD and the FBI have individual files on most of them that he would've looked at. So yeah, he knows about Namora for sure.

Agreement about seeing those teams fight. It's unlikely while the AoA are still undercover, but it'd be fun to see. And it'd make more sense than them randomly picking a fight with the NA... grumblegrumble. :tongue:

[BeastieRunner]

Made sense to me. I like the connections and it shows Lao is one evil bastard. I can't wait to see what he does with the access to the Dragon Corridor.

I have a feeling this is going to be a little bit like the Thunderbolts but in reverse (good guys acting as bad guys) and when they go to make their turn ... Lao screws them over!

Status-quo maintained.

[pariah-1972]

Parker's still doing the writing. Kirk was the one on pencils for the miniseries.

Osborn knows pretty much what happened with all of them, with the exception of them pretending to be evil. He read Derek's report to SHIELD, and has doubtless done a little digging since then. Derek's report covered everything that happened in the miniseries up to the last chapter, and both SHIELD and the FBI have individual files on most of them that he would've looked at. So yeah, he knows about Namora for sure.

Agreement about seeing those teams fight. It's unlikely while the AoA are still undercover, but it'd be fun to see. And it'd make more sense than them randomly picking a fight with the NA... grumblegrumble. :tongue:Sorry i got my wires crossed with the artist and the writer:frown: is Leonard Kirk coming back?

[Beast]

Sorry i got my wires crossed with the artist and the writer:frown: is Leonard Kirk coming back?
He's busy with Captain Britain and MI:13 unfortunatly. But I love the current artists.

[Gitaroo_Dude]

I don't understand all the complaining, I thought the issue did a great job at tying issues 2-4 together. And opened plenty of plot threads to be explored. And the setup for the NA was fine.

Still don't really like the fill-in artist though. He was much better in this issue than in #3, but I want Pagulayan back. Loved Hardman though, his art on the flash backs was a treat.

[pariah-1972]

He's busy with Captain Britain and MI:13 unfortunatly. But I love the current artists.I could handle it better if the artists weren't being switched around so much.

Clayton Henry wasn't giving hardly anything to draw for the modern stuff which is the part that i was most interested in.