Picutre proof that fight scenes were drawn better in the clssic comics

[Ziggy Stardust]

Feel free to put in some of your favorites.

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/8250/42025007.jpg (http://img231.imageshack.us/my.php?image=42025007.jpg)

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/8673/17468470.jpg (http://img231.imageshack.us/my.php?image=17468470.jpg)

[Paiute 1]

Well gee, you picked Buscema and Perez as example's and both finished by the best inker of all time; Sinnott. Who's to disagee with you?

[Ziggy Stardust]

Then feel free to add on, son.

[Paiute 1]

No insult ment, you are totaly right.

Almost everybody today seems try to go for the pin-up shot, so to speak.

[Ziggy Stardust]

None taken.:smile:

Nods to the Ross Andru thread:

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/4613/28997022.th.jpg (http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=28997022.jpg)
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/2708/72401533.th.jpg (http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=72401533.jpg)
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/9506/48415933.th.jpg (http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=48415933.jpg)

[The Confessor]

None taken.:smile:

Nods to the Ross Andru thread:

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/4613/28997022.th.jpg (http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=28997022.jpg)
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/2708/72401533.th.jpg (http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=72401533.jpg)
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/9506/48415933.th.jpg (http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=48415933.jpg)


Some nice panels there Ziggy but they seem a bit too small to fully appreciate. I mean, I realise that they're just thumbnails but even when you click through to the bigger versions on imageshack they're still kinda tiny.

Any chance of some bigger scans of those pages?

[The Confessor]

OK, firstly, I would just like to state that for the record, I don't necessarily think that fight scenes in old classic comics were drawn better. There are still plenty of great and inventive fight scenes being drawn in modern comics.

Having got that out of the way, I was reading Amazing Spider-Man #23 last night and I came across a great, Ditko drawn, fight scene between Spidey and Lucky Lobo's gangsters which instantly reminded me of this thread. So, here's some scans...I particularly like the centre panel on the first page and also, Spidey's "instant gangster wallpaper". :smile:


http://i41.tinypic.com/167sg7l.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/n3ojmg.jpg

[benday-dot]

OK, firstly, I would just like to state that for the record, I don't necessarily think that fight scenes in old classic comics were drawn better. There are still plenty of great and inventive fight scenes being drawn in modern comics.

Agreed. There is some powerful, nicely choreographed, stuff still to be seen. Maybe not Kirby powerful, but still pretty good. Romita Jr. is pretty good in this field.

Having got that out of the way, I was reading Amazing Spider-Man #23 last night and I came across a great, Ditko drawn, fight scene between Spidey and Lucky Lobo's gangsters which instantly reminded me of this thread. So, here's some scans...I particularly like the centre panel on the first page and also, Spidey's "instant gangster wallpaper". :smile:

Thanks for a great shot of Ditko magic on this Sunday afternoon Confessor!

[Reptisaurus!]

In fact, I'd go so far as to say the Very Best of the Very Best fight scenes of the last ten-or-so years are better than the Very Best of the Very Best of yesteryear.

Not (obviously) that current artists are more talented, but 'cause they're writing for graphic novel format and have more room to work.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Some nice panels there Ziggy but they seem a bit too small to fully appreciate. I mean, I realise that they're just thumbnails but even when you click through to the bigger versions on imageshack they're still kinda tiny.

Any chance of some bigger scans of those pages?

Apologies

Better?

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/4702/74378413.jpg (http://img100.imageshack.us/my.php?image=74378413.jpg)

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/7043/17485421.jpg (http://img100.imageshack.us/my.php?image=17485421.jpg)

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/7127/58646898.jpg (http://img100.imageshack.us/my.php?image=58646898.jpg)

[The Confessor]

Apologies

Better?


Yes, thank you...that's much better.

Some great scans there Ziggy, I'm a sucker for some old school Spidey/Scorpion action. Love the frightened hospital orderlies in the background of the 2nd panel on page 2. That's also a great panel directly below it, where Spider-Man punches Scorpion through a window because he "jumped on an old lady named May!" Ha ha…you tell 'im Spidey!! :biggrin:

I'm guessing that these pages originate from Amazing Spider-Man #146?

[Ziggy Stardust]

Yup.

Funny thing is in the previous issue, Scopy dominated Spidey and left him for dead.

Then Gargan made the mistake of scaring Aunt May.

[The Confessor]

Yup.

Funny thing is in the previous issue, Scopy dominated Spidey and left him for dead.

Then Gargan made the mistake of scaring Aunt May.



Well, it just goes to show...never f**k with a man's Aunt. :wink:

[MTL76]

Feel free to put in some of your favorites.

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/8250/42025007.jpg (http://img231.imageshack.us/my.php?image=42025007.jpg)

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/8673/17468470.jpg (http://img231.imageshack.us/my.php?image=17468470.jpg)

That FF page would take up about about 5 or six pages with most of today's writers and artists.

[Simon Garth]

Sorry to those who liked them, but IMHO that Spidey/Scorpion art is horrible.

Look at the 2nd panel on page 23 - what is going on with Spidey's right leg - how on earth did it end up there? And his whole pose is ridiculous - I can't see any way he could throw that punch and start or end up in that position.

The 3rd panel is even worse - look at Scorpions left hand when he is punched out of the window - how on earth can his hand be that way round, unless he's got a compound fracture of his arm? Spidey's pose is also ludicrous - you might just about get away with his left arm, though it looks ridiculous, but what on earth is he doing with his right arm? Who waves their other arm around like that when they're punching someone? I'd also point out that he's somehow floating in mid-air in the room, which has itself been repainted to a different colour since the previous panel.

[benday-dot]

Who waves their other arm around like that when they're punching someone?

I suppose the answer is the same guy who got bitten by a radioactive spider, the result of which enabled him to climb walls and madly mess about, and pull off some crazy moves while swinging around the city clad in a red and blue web-patterned "union suit."

[berk]

Sorry to those who liked them, but IMHO that Spidey/Scorpion art is horrible.

Look at the 2nd panel on page 23 - what is going on with Spidey's right leg - how on earth did it end up there? And his whole pose is ridiculous - I can't see any way he could throw that punch and start or end up in that position.

The 3rd panel is even worse - look at Scorpions left hand when he is punched out of the window - how on earth can his hand be that way round, unless he's got a compound fracture of his arm? Spidey's pose is also ludicrous - you might just about get away with his left arm, though it looks ridiculous, but what on earth is he doing with his right arm? Who waves their other arm around like that when they're punching someone? I'd also point out that he's somehow floating in mid-air in the room, which has itself been repainted to a different colour since the previous panel.I can't say I'm in love with those particular samples, but I don't really get all your criticisms. The 2nd panel, for example - wouldn't that be a fair way of showing SpiderMan following through on a right hook? His right leg's his leading leg, he's stepping on the Scorpion's tail to anchor him (dirty move!) and nails him with a right hook. I never knew he was a lefty, though, or maybe he's ambidextrous.

[Simon Garth]

I can't say I'm in love with those particular samples, but I don't really get all your criticisms. The 2nd panel, for example - wouldn't that be a fair way of showing SpiderMan following through on a right hook? His right leg's his leading leg, he's stepping on the Scorpion's tail to anchor him (dirty move!) and nails him with a right hook. I never knew he was a lefty, though, or maybe he's ambidextrous.

Having looked at it again and again, I don't see the "standing on tail" interpretation - to me, it just looks like his foot is suspended in mid-air over the tail (or nearer to the viewer)

You try to duplicate the action that in that frame - he's standing with his right foot forward, and throwing a (weird) downwards punch (a downercut??). But if you're punching with your right hand, you push off with your left foot - if he tried to do what he's doing in that panel, he's going to twist his spine into pretzel (which in fairness, looking at his waist, is what the artist seems to be depicting!) - maybe he got an amazing double-jointed spider-waist along with the bite...

Maybe this is going over the top, but it seems to me that a lot of "Classic" artists get a pretty easy ride - if those panels had been by Liefeld or some other contempory, they'd be mauled for the poor anatomy.

[benday-dot]

Having looked at it again and again, I don't see the "standing on tail" interpretation - to me, it just looks like his foot is suspended in mid-air over the tail (or nearer to the viewer)


Simon, I'd say that shock pattern, or whatever you call that jagged yellow abstraction, interposed right under Scorpion tail and Spider foot is supposed to indicate some real forceful tail-stompin'.

[Totoro Man]

Having looked at it again and again, I don't see the "standing on tail" interpretation - to me, it just looks like his foot is suspended in mid-air over the tail (or nearer to the viewer)

You try to duplicate the action that in that frame - he's standing with his right foot forward, and throwing a (weird) downwards punch (a downercut??). But if you're punching with your right hand, you push off with your left foot - if he tried to do what he's doing in that panel, he's going to twist his spine into pretzel (which in fairness, looking at his waist, is what the artist seems to be depicting!) - maybe he got an amazing double-jointed spider-waist along with the bite...

Maybe this is going over the top, but it seems to me that a lot of "Classic" artists get a pretty easy ride - if those panels had been by Liefeld or some other contempory, they'd be mauled for the poor anatomy.

look at that panel again-- you'll notice that under Gargan's tail is the outline of an explosive 'visual device'. notice how the shadow is broken up so that we can see part of the floor illuminated? that's not possible in the real world--so this was obviously the artist's way of representing that Spiderman stomped on the Scorpion's tail and threw a punch at him.

the artist should have shown that Spiderman stomped on the Scorpion's tail by reflecting this with the tail being distorted or crushed AND using the impact lines on the floor. as it stands--like you said, it makes Spidey's foot look as though it's being suspended in mid-air.

now, moving on to the punch in that same panel:

of course, the problem is that he steps forward with his right leg and throws a punch with his right hand! he should have been using a left-hand punch!
the Scorpion should have been depicted reeling backwards to Spiderman's right (away from the audience). that's more anatomically plausible.

still, the overal composition is good. you can easily tell what's going on... the anatomy and physiology is far from perfect--but the readers can easily see what's going on.

maybe this thread could have been titled "I like Golden and Silver Age comic book fights better because they're more lucid and entertaining. Hooray for Marvel!"

still, there were a lot of great fights in the classic Spidey stories. sure, the anatomy wasn't always there--but you could easily tell what was going on, the action was pretty compelling, and there was usually a story behind each fight. as much as I enjoy a lot of newer comics--some titles (and I'm looking at YOU "Bleach" and "Naruto" use fights as a cheap substitute for actual story-telling and characterization!)

[berk]

look at that panel again-- you'll notice that under Gargan's tail is the outline of an explosive 'visual device'. notice how the shadow is broken up so that we can see part of the floor illuminated? that's not possible in the real world--so this was obviously the artist's way of representing that Spiderman stomped on the Scorpion's tail and threw a punch at him.Lookin at it more closely, I imagine that that broken patch was meant to be coloured yellow, to distinguish it as one of those "EVD"s (useful term, BTW, thanks).

the artist should have shown that Spiderman stomped on the Scorpion's tail by reflecting this with the tail being distorted or crushed AND using the impact lines on the floor. as it stands--like you said, it makes Spidey's foot look as though it's being suspended in mid-air.

now, moving on to the punch in that same panel:

of course, the problem is that he steps forward with his right leg and throws a punch with his right hand! he should have been using a left-hand punch!
the Scorpion should have been depicted reeling backwards to Spiderman's right (away from the audience). that's more anatomically plausible.Nah, a hook off your lead hand is a perfectly legit punch - just watch any boxing match. If that's what the artist (Andru?) meant to show, then he was right to have the Scorpion fall towards the reader. That part makes total sense, I think.

[Simon Garth]

Simon, I'd say that shock pattern, or whatever you call that jagged yellow abstraction, interposed right under Scorpion tail and Spider foot is supposed to indicate some real forceful tail-stompin'.

Hmm, you have a point, but surely if that was the case, there would be an "EVD" on top of the tail and under Spidey's foot?

As it it, it just looks to me that Scorpion has been punched over, and is breaking the fall with his tail (or has just landed on his tail), leaving Spidey's leg back in mid-air

[Simon Garth]

Nah, a hook off your lead hand is a perfectly legit punch - just watch any boxing match. If that's what the artist (Andru?) meant to show, then he was right to have the Scorpion fall towards the reader. That part makes total sense, I think.

It may be legitimate, but not from that pose. Seriously, stand with your legs approximating that pose, and then try to throw that punch - you'll be lucky if you don't slip a lumbar disc! If the pose is supposed to be the end point, so Spidey has stepped forward with his right foot and thrown the right hook in the same move, then my objection stands - you just don't do that. If he was standing square on to Scorp, with feet planted, I would accept it, but that pose just doesn't work for me as it stands.

If that is Ross Andru (and I haven't seen anything of his for about 35 years, so I'm not remotely sure whether it is or not), I'm not surprised - I never liked his art at the time.

[The Confessor]

If that is Ross Andru (and I haven't seen anything of his for about 35 years, so I'm not remotely sure whether it is or not), I'm not surprised - I never liked his art at the time.


It is Ross Andru, yes...with John Romita Sr. inking. The Spider-Man vs. The Scorpion panels are from Amazing Spider-Man #146.

[Paiute 1]

I believe the inker's on that issue were Giacoia and Esposito, Romita Sr. inked the one before that.

Anyway lets not forget that Spiderman is a comicbook hero and is a bit of a contorshinist (sp). He can pretty much bend his body anyway he wants, so throwing a flat-footed punch would not hurt him.

And it's been stated that he was not a great fighter like a boxer or a martial arts expert; it was his spider sense and spider reflexes, that helped even out or give him the upper hand in his fights with more experianced and better fighters.

[The Confessor]

I believe the inker's on that issue were Giacoia and Esposito, Romita Sr. inked the one before that.


Not according to my copy of the issue. The credits on the first page say that it's inked by "John Romita and the Gang". I have no idea who else may've worked on the inking of this issue but Romia Sr. was definitely the main inker.

Unless you know something I don't, of course. :confused:

[Paiute 1]

Not according to my copy of the issue. The credits on the first page say that it's inked by "John Romita and the Gang". I have no idea who else may've worked on the inking of this issue but Romia Sr. was definitely the main inker.

Unless you know something I don't, of course. :confused:

Your right I got the previous issue mixed up with this. I can still remember how happy I was to see Romita back after a long hietus those many years ago. I think he only inked Ross this issue and one other at the beginning of Ross's run.

[Simon Garth]

I believe the inker's on that issue were Giacoia and Esposito, Romita Sr. inked the one before that.

Anyway lets not forget that Spiderman is a comicbook hero and is a bit of a contorshinist (sp). He can pretty much bend his body anyway he wants, so throwing a flat-footed punch would not hurt him.

Oh no he isn't! He's a great acrobat, but he's not got a double-jointed spine!