Limiting Superman

[Yearning4Yorick]

I have always thought Superman was too powered up, I know I know, he's named Superman so he kind of has to be God-like, but I've always thought it was too much. If you could take away one power of Superman what would it be? Would he still be qualified to carry the name Superman without it? If it was up to me, I would do the super-breathe.

So, what is it? Do you agree or disagree with me?

[Spiffy]

When you've got 100,000 others (actually far more if you count the Daxamites) with the same powers? Superman's excessive power level becomes less of a problem storywise.

[Atman]

Any time someone complains about Superman being too strong, I point to All Star Superman. It's a contender for the best Superman story ever written, and it's all about Superman getting even more powerful.

But if I had to choose one to get rid of, I'd go with super ventriloquism. (http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=683:superventriloquism&catid=36:stupor-powers-index&Itemid=38)

[Yearning4Yorick]

Any time someone complains about Superman being too strong, I point to All Star Superman. It's a contender for the best Superman story ever written, and it's all about Superman getting even more powerful.

But if I had to choose one to get rid of, I'd go with super ventriloquism. (http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=683:superventriloquism&catid=36:stupor-powers-index&Itemid=38)

I need to read All-Star Superman, I think it would change my perception of Superman.

[Retro315]

All the powers in the world don't mean jack if you're a shy, socially awkward Kansas farmboy in the big city ...

That's the beauty in Superman, for me ... every power you could ever need or want ... except people skills. Oh, he can set an example ... inspire ... he's super nice ... but not in his everyday life, that's in his "I'm in the blue suit, I gotta do the right thing" mode.

[Name Already Taken]

As far as being too powered up, I see where people are coming from. Godlike powers mean too many worldy issues as far as fall out if Clark is portrayed in that way or manner. What is to stop this guiy from ruling the world with his abilities? Hell, he coulod do it single-handedly if he wanted to. The thing to keep in mind for Supes is that no matter what ability he has or develops, it is always his humanity that keeps him in check. Granted, he may go rogue here and there due to mind control or whatever kryptonite he comes in contact with depending on the story. The way he was raised, and how he acts always brings him back in check in the end.

Nothing is stopping him except a few meta's in the DCU from taking over thew world. He has entrusted a few people to coutneract him if he goes down the wrong path, as storys will have from time to time. There have been a few Elseworlds that showcase this when he gets too powerful. It will always be how he was raised as a human that will reign him in ultimately. He is human enough to realize his flaws should he get out of control, and puts in place countermeasures to pre-empt him if needed.

As far as ability he posseses in the Modern context (post IConIE) you can power him up all you want, in belief and the writer's imagination. He will always default in the end to his upbringing. He can smash planets and push others into oblivion, but he will always stop short of being a bad guy and causing genocide on a mass scale with the powers he has at his disposal. Being and acting human will always be his greatest strength and weakness, to varying degrees to whomever is writing him at the time regardless of the present conflict.

Clark/Superman will always be who he was raised to be, and it will keep him grounded in reality for that (not Superboy Prime) situation. Humanity even though he is an alien will always be the defining factor in how he acts, regardless of the situation. Howe he uses the extent of his powers or potential is up to the writer to meet and beat those set expectations.

[Sijo]

One of the things I liked of the Byrne reboot (among many- my favorite was the Kents being alive) was that Superman, while still powerful, was still just a superhero- no more pushing planets around or traveling through time unaided. He should be powerful enough that only the top villains can challenge him, but not so powerful that they need kryptonite or magic to do it. Nor should he so powerful that he solves crime without any help. Heck, many of the abuses of Superman's powers come from extrapolating his current powers WAY too far- like in Final Crisis, where he recognized Darkseid' host body as being Dan Turpin's just by looking at its DNA. OK, even if we assume that both his microscopic vision and his X-Ray vision work in combination -which is not strictly necessary- in order to recognize Turpin's DNA he'd need to a) have the necessary scientific knowledge to read the DNA sequences and b) would need to have memorized Turpin's sequence at some point. What, does Superman go around X-raying everybody he meets? Please.

Note, I don't mind Superman going all-godlike on occasion- as long as there is an appropriate explanation (diving into the Sun, for example) and that he doesn't do it all the time. He should be the greatest superhero- not an invincible, infallible one.

[carabas]

Any time someone complains about Superman being too strong, I point to All Star Superman. It's a contender for the best Superman story ever written, and it's all about Superman getting even more powerful.All Star Superman i set in its own little world though, adn is a stand-alone story.
That superman would pretty much made the entire JLA useless since he's smarter than Batman and his little pinky has ten times as much power than the entire JLa and all their villains put together.

Note that there weren't a lot of standard superhero stories in All Star Superman, with villains that needed beating up and stuff.

[WorstThingUS]

I need to read All-Star Superman, I think it would change my perception of Superman.

There's also the "Neverending Battle" storyline where all of his Rogues gang up on him at once and he uses all his abilities INCLUDING HIS BRAIN so impressively, you simultaneously wonder why it isn't always like that and why he just hasn't stomped all the villains in the DCU by himself.

[Yearning4Yorick]

As far as being too powered up, I see where people are coming from. Godlike powers mean too many worldy issues as far as fall out if Clark is portrayed in that way or manner. What is to stop this guiy from ruling the world with his abilities? Hell, he coulod do it single-handedly if he wanted to. The thing to keep in mind for Supes is that no matter what ability he has or develops, it is always his humanity that keeps him in check. Granted, he may go rogue here and there due to mind control or whatever kryptonite he comes in contact with depending on the story. The way he was raised, and how he acts always brings him back in check in the end.

Nothing is stopping him except a few meta's in the DCU from taking over thew world. He has entrusted a few people to coutneract him if he goes down the wrong path, as storys will have from time to time. There have been a few Elseworlds that showcase this when he gets too powerful. It will always be how he was raised as a human that will reign him in ultimately. He is human enough to realize his flaws should he get out of control, and puts in place countermeasures to pre-empt him if needed.

As far as ability he posseses in the Modern context (post IConIE) you can power him up all you want, in belief and the writer's imagination. He will always default in the end to his upbringing. He can smash planets and push others into oblivion, but he will always stop short of being a bad guy and causing genocide on a mass scale with the powers he has at his disposal. Being and acting human will always be his greatest strength and weakness, to varying degrees to whomever is writing him at the time regardless of the present conflict.

Clark/Superman will always be who he was raised to be, and it will keep him grounded in reality for that (not Superboy Prime) situation. Humanity even though he is an alien will always be the defining factor in how he acts, regardless of the situation. Howe he uses the extent of his powers or potential is up to the writer to meet and beat those set expectations.

I do understand that part, his childhood and the Kent's are what grounds him. I like that a lot about the character but at the same time it feels like the threat consistently needs to raised to make the battle's feel suspenseful.

[Mike Smith]

I have always thought Superman was too powered up, I know I know, he's named Superman so he kind of has to be God-like, but I've always thought it was too much. If you could take away one power of Superman what would it be? Would he still be qualified to carry the name Superman without it? If it was up to me, I would do the super-breathe.

So, what is it? Do you agree or disagree with me?

Super-baking.

And to anyone who finds Superman too powerful (and I'm happy to see DC finally wised up and is unlimiting his abilities, as should be) I highly suggest reading and becoming a fan of characters who are more limited in powers.

[Yearning4Yorick]

Super-baking.

And to anyone who finds Superman too powerful (and I'm happy to see DC finally wised up and is unlimiting his abilities, as should be) I highly suggest reading and becoming a fan of characters who are more limited in powers.

Good advice.

[livin_target]

One thing I never understand is why people always single out Superman with the "He's too powerful" argument when DC has a whole host of heroes who are on the same level with the guy, many of which could overpower him if it wasn't for PIS/CIS: Captain Marvel has usually been written as his equal but without the magic/kryptonite/red sun weaknesses (infact he can channel magic); Green Lantern can make his ring do anything he wants and has bugger all weaknesses himself (making a GL feel fear is a lot harder than dumping a radioctive rock next to him); Martian Manhunter may be slightly less powerful strength/speed wise but has a wealth of other powers to make up for it (mind control, phasing, morphing etc); flash goes so fast and has so many "speed force" plot devices that almost none of the heroes or villians can even touch the guy when he goes all out etc etc.

Superman may be powerful but he lives in a powerful universe and compared to a number of his peers, he has a great number of weaknesses to offset his great strength.

[carabas]

And to anyone who finds Superman too powerful (and I'm happy to see DC finally wised up and is unlimiting his abilities, as should be) I highly suggest reading and becoming a fan of characters who are more limited in powers.Well, a lot of us became fans when he was less than omnipotent.

[rZi]

I like Johns take on his "power-level"

Clark couldn't hear martha scream his name when new krypton was growing/being made - nor could supergirl in space

space aliens can give him beat downs - even brainiacs skeleton type robots could break clark's skin

I want him to be able to fly to other countries in seconds....but he would get tired if he kept doing it. and if he goes into the sun, he should die....his heat visison shouldn't be stronger than that

[Whirlwind Dinamo]

I respect him as an icon but he's also over-powered and sometimes I think the character is annoying as hell. I kinda hate some of Superman's character, well to be more accurate I hate anything Silver Age or any kind of attempt by DC to give him feats just for the sake of having them.

I would like to see him return to his Golden Age personality, back to his golden boy roots. An alien growing up with powers, trying to hide his secret identity who can be hurt or threatened by the big bad guy. The best bits of Smallville without the crappy drama

That whole X-ray vision is annoying as hell, I can live with it but it annoys me because rather than trying to hide his secret life he instead goes around snooping and spying on people like some kind of patriot act. He should have some kind of upper limit strength and endurance, I mean a nuke should be a lethal threat to him not just give him a headache or some rubbish. I was debating Superman in rumbles a few days ago, anyway we were debating that whole Ali v Superman business. Then someone pointed out to me that today's Superman was given one thousand years martial arts training, I mean really WTF were they thinking!? Can the Superman writers please stop being such snobs and at least concede Batman has Superman beat in the martial arts department. However if there is one thing I would get rid of its that whole part of his never ending extended family. He's supposed to be the last son of Krypton but now there's too many kids, girls, dogs etc
New Krypton needs to be hit with all of Captain Kirks photon torpedoes, wipe that storyline out - ERASE IT

[Mat001]

The martial arts training refers to Superboy's relationship with Karate Kid, who is a master and higher up in experience than Batman. So when as Superman, he had his childhood friend to thank. As to the X-ray vision, he doesn't go around spying on people. He uses it to find the criminals the flee and determine if any of them have weapons to use on the innocent. Take the 1991 Action Comics Annual. When he was working Pete Ross's Presidential campaign, he used his X-ray vision to scan the crowd for assassins. In DC 1st: Superman & The Flash, he used it to help save Jay Garrick's life.

Clark couldn't hear martha scream his name when new krypton was growing/being made - nor could supergirl in space

Kara couldn't because of the vaccum of space, as it should be. But Clark didn't because he wasn't paying attention. It was an homage to the first film, when he wasn't paying attention to Lois. Rather he was focused on the disaster, that he didn't realize she was in danger until it dawned on him that he forgot about her. And then he heard her, which is how he knew where to look. Here, he did hear Martha or Jonathan until the last second because he was focused on Kandor.

[_OM_]

Well, a lot of us became fans when he was less than omnipotent.

...And Byrne wasn't even the first one to try that stunt, either. Denny O'Neil and Curt Swan tried it back in 1971 - starting with Superman v1 #233, and Kurt Busiek can fill in the rest of the numbers - after Unca Mort retired by first having all the Kryptonite on Earth turned into iron by a runaway chain reaction - long before physicists started talking about quantum entanglement being something other than a hairdresser's nightmare - then having Clark be gradually depowered by some creature from an alien dimension that was brought over by the accident that ruined all that nice Kryptonite. This lasted about 18 months before it was brought to a rather quiet halt, but not before they'd brought in some kid and his pet lynx(*) to act as some sort of subliminal power converter whatsits.

Yeah, I know. Ranked right up there with Mopee and the Heavenly Helpers. Which is probably why it was swept under the rug so quickly, natch.

(*) And lynxes are about as tameable as pets as an ex-wife who hasn't received her alimony extortion checks in six months, kids.

[Mike Smith]

I seem to remember Superman presumably killing a few people (if you connect the dots), using rumble-tumble diplomacy and having some quite high-end Golden Age feats as well, especially compared to his contemporaries.

Especially as comics are reaching to a new generation, and will I think do so using new media (internet and tv/movie based), it is important to keep in mind the perception of kids. I'm not saying it's universal, but when rewatching Superman, Animated Series with my nieces and nephews the phrase 'Isn't Superman supposed to be tougher than that' wasn't uncommon. Contrast that to Batman, and the kids loved it. Limited powers work for some, but I think tend to hold be the nature and potential of mythos to others.

I think Superman is best written when his abilities are pushing any preconceived limits and his top villains are even beyond that, and take a bit of ingenuity, resolve and great power to overcome.

[Blind pugh]

I don't know why people would want to limit Superman.
Personally I find his power level makes it hard for me to enjoy him so I read other characters.
Those who enjoy or think nothing of his power level read him, seems like a perfect system to me.

[4thHorseman]

The only problem I have with an "overpowered" Superman is when he is able to find a solution to the problem by some ridiculous new power or a cheap deus ex machina to end the story.

People try to argue that you have to do different stories with an overpowered Superman, but the problem is, they can be done with an UNDERPOWERED Superman also.

[carabas]

I don't know why people would want to limit Superman.
Personally I find his power level makes it hard for me to enjoy him so I read other characters.Because he's part of a shared universe; a silver age Superman who could get rid of all crime while the Flash blinks his eyes is sort of unworkable.

[Blind pugh]

COULD unless he does I don't see the problem, if he starts appearing in everyone elses titles & pissing on their bonfires then fair enough.
But so long as that's not the case then surely if his fans want DBZ they can have it, is it really hurting anyone?

[Captain Smith]

Omnipotent - he gets his butt kicked far too often. Remember the hillbilly stomping on him?

Given the folks out there who could blink him out of existence, he's just one of the pack. Also, the Daxamite and New Krypton populations have watered down his uniqueness.

All he has left of uniqueness is his personality - Captain Cornfed.

[Will44]

The Byrne reboot was the best at explaining Superman's powers in such a way that made sense for Superman to fit in as a human being, and depowering him.

I guess each generation just likes the story they grew up with the best, huh?

[Mon-el]

So, what is it? Do you agree or disagree with me?

I disagree with you.....I like my Superman being all powerful.

[Damiean Dark]

Of course Superman is far to powerful they do sometimes show him getting beaten but we all know he is always holding back. I also sometimes find him annoying as well he is very often written as a guy who is looking through a window at humanity and seeing a people beneath him.

Abilities like reading DNA is rediculous as are seeing the Taj Mahal and other things from Metropolis (doesnt the curveture of the earth prevent someone seeing something that far??) and his great weakness Kryptonite is used far to often (Justice,Hush ect ect) but rarely stops him for long why bother with it if he can so easily find a way around it and recover by the next page?.

Reboot him completely to lower this level and have many of his villains as more powerful and dont inbuild them having a loophole that always gets superman off, Darkseid getting his ass thrown into the source wall was the end of that character as an interesting villain imo, Luthor is becoming the cackling scientist again (Doctor Doom showed how its done in those DC/Marvel crossovers the way he dismisiss SM from his country like a child is comic gold), Parasite cant take a certain amount of SM energy, Metallo fits into the Kryptonite argument.

ectectect.

Someone is more heroic imo if they RISK THEIR LIVES to save people Batman running into a burning building will always impress me then SM doing it.

Some people say good writing can overcome the power level issue but thats guff imo how many great stories do most heroes really have in thier entire lifetime? even the great batman has only around four creating new storylines must be a real pain.

[Flash's Lightning]

You know, most people look at Superman the wrong way. They see the flashy powers and they think that's what makes Superman what he is. They think that Clark is Superman because of the sum total of his powers, and that without them, he couldn't be Superman.

They fail to take into account the fact that Superman's greatest superpower is hope. He cares about everyone, wants to help everyone. He's the world's biggest boy scout, sure, but he's also tough as hell and doesn't ever give up. The reason he's called the "man of tomorrow" is that he dreams of a better tomorrow.

Batman sees the evil in men's hearts. Superman sees the good in everyone. So go ahead, take away everything else - take away his superstrength. Take way his heat vision, his freeze breath, his super speed. Take away anything you like. As long as he's still Superman inside, he'll always kick ass.

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/6196/001wyo.th.jpg (http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=001wyo.jpg) http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/9296/0011k.th.jpg (http://img18.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0011k.jpg) http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/9665/0012lxs.th.jpg (http://img24.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0012lxs.jpg) http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/5089/0014ynf.th.jpg (http://img19.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0014ynf.jpg)

[Flash's Lightning]

And a few more.

http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/3940/0015itn.th.jpg (http://img2.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0015itn.jpg)
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/8876/0016a.th.jpg (http://img14.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0016a.jpg)
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/4296/0017x.th.jpg (http://img12.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0017x.jpg)

[Hypestyle]

I appreciated the John Byrne revamp, as short as it was in retrospect.. he brought a mroe "Marvel-ized" Superman, downscaling the powers and the "kookier" silver-age elements but still giving plenty of action..

[Mat001]

And a few more.

http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/3940/0015itn.th.jpg (http://img2.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0015itn.jpg)

Is that from GL #47?

Abilities like reading DNA is rediculous as are seeing the Taj Mahal and other things from Metropolis (doesnt the curveture of the earth prevent someone seeing something that far??) and his great weakness Kryptonite is used far to often (Justice,Hush ect ect) but rarely stops him for long why bother with it if he can so easily find a way around it and recover by the next page?.

Why is it that his ability to tell the difference in DNA through microscopic vision is ridiculous, when we use scientific equipment to do pretty much the same thing. As to using his telescopic vision, he doesn't look over the entire globe with it. He looks across the city as far as his vision can go. If he needs to see further without the limitations of the curveture, he flies into the air and does it. That's what he did in Justice League America #69 when he took off to help the JLA fight Doomsday, which is how he was able to see Booster Gold coming at him.

[Flash's Lightning]

Is that from GL #47?

Fourty-six actually. 47 was GA/GL, and 48-50...well, many won't want to talk about that.

[Mike Smith]

Abilities like reading DNA is rediculous as are seeing the Taj Mahal and other things from Metropolis (doesnt the curveture of the earth prevent someone seeing something that far??) and his great weakness Kryptonite is used far to often (Justice,Hush ect ect) but rarely stops him for long why bother with it if he can so easily find a way around it and recover by the next page?.

How is microscopic-vision ridiculous in a medium where beings fly, can see through objects, has normal humans who can kick over oak trees and jump from 30 foot tall buildings, kids become demigods by yelling Shazam! and well, you get the idea.

Again, I think people who want a Batman on steroids as Superman should be looking at other characters, or trying to create new ones!

[carabas]

Again, I think people who want a Batman on steroids as Superman should be looking at other characters, or trying to create new ones!There are gargantuan shades in between 'Batman on steroids' and 'can literally juggle planets as if they were ping pong balls'.

[Mat001]

Fourty-six actually. 47 was GA/GL, and 48-50...well, many won't want to talk about that.

Ah. I wasn't certain. I didn't think they showed the finale in that issue. I don't have it, nor the trade, so I didn't know.

There are gargantuan shades in between 'Batman on steroids' and 'can literally juggle planets as if they were ping pong balls'.

Right and Clark hasn't done that since 1986. And when he has moved planets, he's had help and it was presented as being nearly impossible.

[carabas]

Right and Clark hasn't done that since 1986. And when he has moved planets, he's had help and it was presented as being nearly impossible.Yeah. But I've seen a lot of people clamoring to get back to those power levels.

[Mat001]

Because they miss a Superman who was a Superman. As Grant Morrison has proved, you can have a Superman that powerful and still be well done.

[_OM_]

Omnipotent - he gets his butt kicked far too often. Remember the hillbilly stomping on him?.

...Which reminds me: Cap'n Strong needs to be revived post-Crisls, dammit! :biggrin:

Fourty-six actually. 47 was GA/GL, and 48-50...well, many won't want to talk about that.

...Come, come now. We mustn't say anything negative about Emerald Twilight. You'll make baby Ron Marz cry :biggrin:

[carabas]

Because they miss a Superman who was a Superman. As Grant Morrison has proved, you can have a Superman that powerful and still be well done.Not if you also want him to be in the JLA.

[Mat001]

Not if you also want him to be in the JLA.

He was in the JLA at those power levels and the book sold well for years.

[Murb1970]

Super strong, super powerful, super fast, super smart, super...Hence the name "Super" man.

[Hanzo the Razor]

I thought the JL/JLU cartoons did a good job of making him seem vulnerable but still a heavy hitter.

[Super Buddies Forever]

I'm always of the mindset that he should be Superman because of his heart, not because of any God-like ability.

It's all cyclical anyway. This trend of amping up his powers will eventually swing back towards the more grounded, 1986-2000 approach.

[Jared]

Because they miss a Superman who was a Superman. As Grant Morrison has proved, you can have a Superman that powerful and still be well done.

Well done in a miniseries with a standalone continuity. Grant didn't make him that powerful in his JLA run, because it wouldn't have worked these days.

[Hanzo the Razor]

I think you've got to keep in mind what makes a good Superman story; it's giving Superman problems he can't solve with his powers. You can't beat world hunger into submission; you can't outrace cancer with superspeed.

This is why Superman's greatest foe is a thinker and not some incredible bruiser. Superman's story reveals that incredible power isn't going to solve our problems; compassion and intelligent thought will.

As Superman told Lex Luthor in All Star-- "Brain beats brawn!"

[Anthony W]

Superman's powers aren't a problem for a skilled writer.

[Calvin Government]

If I could take away one power from Superman, it would be the editorial power to have him written by crappy writers.

If you think he's too powerful or too good, stay away. Nothing wrong with shaking things up, changing things, etc... for the right reasons, but if it's because you can't hack it, you shouldn't be there in the first place.

[Duy]

If I could take away one power from Superman, it would be the editorial power to have him written by crappy writers.

If you think he's too powerful or too good, stay away. Nothing wrong with shaking things up, changing things, etc... for the right reasons, but if it's because you can't hack it, you shouldn't be there in the first place.
Yep.

Superman should be DAMN hard to write, because he's fricking Superman. If you use power levels as an excuse to not tell a good story, then you're not a good writer for Superman, period

When i explained to my 10-year-old nephew that Superman was depowered after Crisis because the writers found it hard to pose challenges for him, he asked me one simple question: "Why didn't they just make his villains stronger?" Well, DUH. And if the answer is "Because it's too hard", then you're clearly not trying hard enough. In which case, you have NO business writing Superman.

"Every time someone says Superman is too powerful and too boring to write, my head practically explodes, because I don't understand how you can not have the imagination to make that interesting."~Gail Simone

[Mike Smith]

Yep.

Superman should be DAMN hard to write, because he's fricking Superman. If you use power levels as an excuse to not tell a good story, then you're not a good writer for Superman, period

When i explained to my 10-year-old nephew that Superman was depowered after Crisis because the writers found it hard to pose challenges for him, he asked me one simple question: "Why didn't they just make his villains stronger?" Well, DUH. And if the answer is "Because it's too hard", then you're clearly not trying hard enough. In which case, you have NO business writing Superman.

"Every time someone says Superman is too powerful and too boring to write, my head practically explodes, because I don't understand how you can not have the imagination to make that interesting."~Gail Simone

Gail Simone just becomes more and more awesome with each passing day. :)

Somewhat related, I enjoyed Superman Returns but was really disappointed that the film didn't incorporate...a powerful villain. Just because a villain is powerful does not mean they must lack character depth and intrigue. If anything, I would think it'd give the writers/artists/directors/producers (depending on medium) a bigger canvas and stage on which to tell the story.

Superman 4 almost had it right with the space fight and Nuclear Man, but unfortunately suffered from very shoddy writing, script, stage direction..well, everyone has seen the Quest for Peace.

There are plenty of good stories to tell, in an arc, that involves highly powered characters and their interactions with the world around them. I find kids constantly disappointed when Superman doesn't seem to consistently measure a substantial bit higher than his counterparts (namely when watching early S:TAS and DCAU with nieces/nephews), as even when the superhero genre started, Superman is the guy who popularized the notion of a person flying, lifting cars and so on.

He should be pushing the boundaries of wonder and excitement with his amazing powers, yet have an alluring charm of a good, upstanding man. I've not yet figured out why, as investigative journalists, we don't see Lois and Clark doing more in-depth sneaking and sleuthing within a story. Not every story HAS to be about power.

It works for Batman and Robin. It can work for Clark in his plain clothes, along with his favorite lady. Not every problem must be solved with fists, but little things like showing Superman entering a warp field in a long-range space flight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPeseS0S_wQ), epically lifting 'x object' (SR, great moment) or whipping up on another 'godlike being' (Darkseid, Mongul, random Kryptonian who pops up, Brainiac, some new villains of great skill, power and influence!) in a way that no other heroes can do.

There still need to be jobs and villains that are just 'for Superman'. That's 'his thing'. Batman is a detective. Flash is the fastest man on foot alive. Wonder Woman, when she is written correctly, is about justice, virtues and a special character of strength (not dating Batman and being the cold-hearted, ditzy Ice Princess, Mr. Bruce Timm :) )

While I love every bit of DCAU, and the stories were compelling, even in his title series not once did I really got the feeling of 'awe, wonder, action and excitement'. Superman should not be humanized or streamlined too much. Again, I link to the CBS intro for an older Superman show (which is oddly enough, after the 1986 depowering) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPeseS0S_wQ). I happen to like this style (of course it's too much for animation style), but it captures a good portion of the essence of Superman to get an audience pumped (and we also see electricity =/ kryptonite) in just the show (though watering him down too much, again, literally dilutes the character).

Superman stories can cover anything, while he is still highly powered. Internal monologue and sometimes simply actions can go a long way. Superman can engage in global situations, deal with questions of ethics/morality, saving random planet Y in a one shot, dealing with an offworld global conflict, cleaning up the streets one night (in plain clothes) with internal monologue of crimes/situations that usually go untouched by 'supers', helping out any random hero/es...the possibilities are endless, with Superman's powers/traits/abilities/ethics writers can come up with an assortment of challenges and the reader can be happily engaged.

I'm ranting, but I whole-heartedly believe we need to have more than plain mill 'heroism' to our Superman. The entire 'it's not the powers that make the hero' is cliche and I see it as a segue statement to a somewhat lazy writing display. I have confidence that writers can develop fun, compelling stories that engage the reader and truly push the boundaries of plot, drama, powers, ability and still have threads of humanism woven into the stories, so we can relate and and be drawn into the narrative the writing and visuals artists wish to convey.

[carabas]

The problem with Superman is that, while he works at his current, immensely powerful powerlevel, writers suffering from poor judgement and nostalgia keep on powering him up more and more and more.
Jeph Loeb's Superman was almost exponentially more powerful than any other writer in the same period.

[Duy]

The problem with Superman is that, while he works at his current, immensely powerful powerlevel, writers suffering from poor judgement and nostalgia keep on powering him up more and more and more.
Jeph Loeb's Superman was almost exponentially more powerful than any other writer in the same period.
A superhero can be as powerful as you can make him. Superman should be able to move planets, traverse galaxies, etc., because hell, that's part of what makes him awesome to a little kid.

The challenge is to give him actual threats, which Superman writers generally just have a tendency to wuss out on. Someone like the Parasite should be an immense threat to Superman, but since he doesn't really want anything more than to feed on Superman, he stops being a really big villain. Bizarro should be Superman's equal in power, but since he's an idiot, he fails to make the cut. Superman needs more villains that have ambition and can outclass him in some way, shape, or form.

A man comes from the sky to do only good - it's a story I could tell my nephew over and over again, and he'll love it and smile when Superman moves a planet.

Superman should be able to be super powerful, because it means we can see him do a lot of insanely cool stuff.

[Mat001]

Yep.

Superman should be DAMN hard to write, because he's fricking Superman. If you use power levels as an excuse to not tell a good story, then you're not a good writer for Superman, period

When i explained to my 10-year-old nephew that Superman was depowered after Crisis because the writers found it hard to pose challenges for him, he asked me one simple question: "Why didn't they just make his villains stronger?" Well, DUH. And if the answer is "Because it's too hard", then you're clearly not trying hard enough. In which case, you have NO business writing Superman.

"Every time someone says Superman is too powerful and too boring to write, my head practically explodes, because I don't understand how you can not have the imagination to make that interesting."~Gail Simone

Look no further than Grant Morrison. The man has crazy imagination.

[pariah-1972]

I think it's only his "invulnerability" that's the problem for most people, but then i don't think he's too powerful he has three main weakness's at least.

[the Hornet]

I think I would like to see a new origin retcon as specified by Morrison and Waid and some others where we see Kal-EL being trained by the JSA. This way, we could see Superman being silver age powerful but still holds back due to all the lessons he learned on the consequences of doing things like moving planets and changing weather patterns.

The only weakness Superman should have are Kryptonites, the red sun and being too powerful that he is a danger to others.

[Rugal 3:16]

Superman should be the MASTER OF ALL TRADES instead of the Jack of all trades but a master of none

I Always hate it nowadays when general perception rules Superman being weaker than the Hulk or slower than the Flash, both statements are easily proven false most of the time pre-crisis

Superman SHOULD be stronger than the Hulk and faster then the flash.

[carabas]

Superman should be the MASTER OF ALL TRADES instead of the Jack of all trades but a master of none

I Always hate it nowadays when general perception rules Superman being weaker than the Hulk or slower than the Flash, both statements are easily proven false most of the time pre-crisis

Superman SHOULD be stronger than the Hulk and faster then the flash.
This is one of the very few times I have to side with John Byrne.

He has what he calls he "specialist rule". Guys who can do only one thing (be smart, run fast, be strong) should be better at it than guys who can do all sorts of stuff.

How pittyful to be the Flash. All he can do is running really fast, and he isn't even the fastest runner on his team.

[Duy]

This is one of the very few times I have to side with John Byrne.

He has what he calls he "specialist rule". Guys who can do only one thing (be smart, run fast, be strong) should be better at it than guys who can do all sorts of stuff.

How pittyful to be the Flash. All he can do is running really fast, and he isn't even the fastest runner on his team.
I'll agree with that when the people exist in the same universes. Flash is fastest, Batman is smartest, Wonder Woman is th best fighter, but not across universes, and not with strength when it comes to Superman. Despite all of Superman's powers, he is seen as a specialist when it comes to strength, so he should be stronger than anyone, including the Hulk.

[carabas]

Despite all of Superman's powers, he is seen as a specialist when it comes to strength, so he should be stronger than anyone, including the Hulk.I somehow don't really think Marvel is going to even slightly try to keep the Hulk less strong than Superman.

[Pinnacle]

I don't mind Flash being faster and I could care less if Hulk is stronger since they are not going to appear together.

As far as power goes though, I don't think Superman can be too powerful as long as it's not something stupid like moving a planet which I just find stupid regardless.

I think Kryptonians should be extremely powerful and Superman should probably be the most powerful due to his experience. He should be a big enough threat that it would take at least 5 Green Lanterns to take him out (and I'm one who thinks Green Lanterns are frequently portrayed as too weak).

Sure there can be villains who approach him in physical power but they themselves should be big enough threats that there presence in the same galaxy is unsettling. Characters like Darkseid, Mongul, and Doomsday.

And any writer who thinks Superman is too powerful should not be writing Superman. There are plenty stories to write with a very powerful Superman. I don't think there should be many villians in his Rogue gallery like Toyman and Prankster. Instead Superman comics should involve bigger threats or more focus on issues and the supporting cast.

[dumbstruck]

One of the things I liked of the Byrne reboot (among many- my favorite was the Kents being alive) was that Superman, while still powerful, was still just a superhero- no more pushing planets around or traveling through time unaided. He should be powerful enough that only the top villains can challenge him, but not so powerful that they need kryptonite or magic to do it. Nor should he so powerful that he solves crime without any help. Heck, many of the abuses of Superman's powers come from extrapolating his current powers WAY too far- like in Final Crisis, where he recognized Darkseid' host body as being Dan Turpin's just by looking at its DNA. OK, even if we assume that both his microscopic vision and his X-Ray vision work in combination -which is not strictly necessary- in order to recognize Turpin's DNA he'd need to a) have the necessary scientific knowledge to read the DNA sequences and b) would need to have memorized Turpin's sequence at some point. What, does Superman go around X-raying everybody he meets? Please.

Note, I don't mind Superman going all-godlike on occasion- as long as there is an appropriate explanation (diving into the Sun, for example) and that he doesn't do it all the time. He should be the greatest superhero- not an invincible, infallible one.


I agree. The post Byrne Superman was just just right. He was powerful but not ridiculously, excessively so. The OYL power-up he's gotten kind of annoys me. I mentioned this in another thread, but my biggest issue is he now has his super-intellect back. This conceivably enables Superman to be the best at everything. He could be a greater detective than Batman, or a greater inventor than John Henry Irons, or a better doctor than Dr. Midnite, or a better scientist than Luthor or STARLabs. It just creates possibilities that don't make sense, and make him even more unrelatable.

[carabas]

IAs far as power goes though, I don't think Superman can be too powerful as long as it's not something stupid like moving a planet which I just find stupid regardless.I think we are in the minority. A lot of folks seem to like a Superman who isn't superstrong but stupidstrong.

[Paladin573]

I have no issue with the power level of Superman. A writer should be able to deal with it.

But the question of the thread is what power should be limited if you were going to take him down a notch.

I do not think you can take away any one power. Flight and heat vision would make sense. Taking away speed strength invulnerability would not make sense.

But if I were to be the one making the call I would have some sort of cosmic event - comet, solar flare...something that would take everything back a notch or 2. But still make him Superman the "go to" guy, "the buck stops here" guy.

IMO

[Duy]

As far as power goes though, I don't think Superman can be too powerful as long as it's not something stupid like moving a planet which I just find stupid regardless.

Moving a planet is an allusion to mythical stories, such as when Atlas carried the planet on his shoulders. It makes for great imagery and the kids love it. What's the big deal, as long as the threats are good enough?

[JCAll]

I refuse to believe that Superman having more or less power either way can in any way effect the quality of the stories. It changes the type of stories that can be told, but quality writing is quality writing whether he's juggling planets or juggling crooked politicians.

So long as he still has Super-Juggling, he's set for any situation.

[Pinnacle]

Moving a planet is an allusion to mythical stories, such as when Atlas carried the planet on his shoulders. It makes for great imagery and the kids love it. What's the big deal, as long as the threats are good enough?

1. Atlas was a Titan and therefore a deity. Superman shouldn't be compared to him. If you want to make comparisons to the mythical stories, Hercules, Samson, and Gilgamesh are more appropriate.

2. It makes the Super greater than the Man. Superman should be a messianic character in the sense that he is both. I also don't like writers who focus too much on the Man and not the Super.

3. It is NOT a great image. It just makes comics look stupid. There is no way it can be drawn to scale. I like some Silver Age stuff but planet juggling is just stupid.

[Duy]

1. Atlas was a Titan and therefore a deity. Superman shouldn't be compared to him. If you want to make comparisons to the mythical stories, Hercules, Samson, and Gilgamesh are more appropriate.

2. It makes the Super greater than the Man. Superman should be a messianic character in the sense that he is both. I also don't like writers who focus too much on the Man and not the Super.

3. It is NOT a great image. It just makes comics look stupid. There is no way it can be drawn to scale. I like some Silver Age stuff but planet juggling is just stupid.
Suit yourself. The kids love it and it's an act of mythical proportions. The Spectre can keep parallel earths apart and it looks great; Superman moving a planet is peanuts to draw in comparison.

[Super Buddies Forever]

Like I've said before, this stuff is all cyclical. Today most fans seem to say that they like their Superman an omnipotent god, tomorrow they'll prefer the Golden Age/Man of Steel approach. It's a generational tug-of-war.

[Rugal 3:16]

I somehow don't really think Marvel is going to even slightly try to keep the Hulk less strong than Superman.

Well if i were DC i wouldn't keep Supes our top man weaker than the Hulk either, I don't think DC has ever released an official statement claiming Supes is weaker than the hulk so all fans can do is speculate..

heck any writer could write supes off as stronger than Hulk if they wish too (and give supes the same Infinite Strength motif as well])

Byrne can weaken supes but at least make it reasonable, Byrne Supes isn't even class 100 (meaning not in the same league as Thors and Juggernauts of marvel)

[carabas]

Well if i were DC i wouldn't keep Supes our top man weaker than the Hulk either, I don't think DC has ever released an official statement claiming Supes is weaker than the hulk so all fans can do is speculate.If I were DC, I think I'd have better things to do than worry about Superman and the Hulk'srespective strengths and make sure my guy 'wins', and just put his strength level somewhere where it was workable.

Moving a planet is an allusion to mythical stories, such as when Atlas carried the planet on his shoulders. It makes for great imagery and the kids love it. What's the big deal, as long as the threats are good enough?
No, it doesn't make for great imagery, and ad least this kid, aged ten or so, thought it was utterly silly and unbelievable, and bought Batman instead.

Also, Atlas didn't carry the planet. He supported the firmanent. The classical image of him carrying around the globe? Plain wrong and created centuries after the Atlas mythologies.
And if you really think that Superman moving a planet is actually intended to allude to classical myths... (well, if Grant Morrison does it... maybe).

[pariah-1972]

I agree. The post Byrne Superman was just just right. He was powerful but not ridiculously, excessively so. The OYL power-up he's gotten kind of annoys me. I mentioned this in another thread, but my biggest issue is he now has his super-intellect back. This conceivably enables Superman to be the best at everything. He could be a greater detective than Batman, or a greater inventor than John Henry Irons, or a better doctor than Dr. Midnite, or a better scientist than Luthor or STARLabs. It just creates possibilities that don't make sense, and make him even more unrelatable.That can easily be rectified he could be smart at anything alien related since he has the most experience (next to Hal) at alien or alien technology.

That would give him his own thing to be good at without stepping on anyone else's toes or making him look stupid.

[carabas]

The OYL power-up he's gotten kind of annoys me.I'm not sure he has gotten a OYL power-up.
I mean, I read the arc, and in that arc he had a mental boost, but I have seen nothing in any Superman story since that indicates that any of this has stuck.

I don't get the impression that Superman is even slightly stronger or smarter now than before Infinite Crisis. But many, many writers have been boosting his power throughout the decades since Byrne's Superman, chief among them probably Jeph Loeb.

[Duy]

I just want to quote this awesome woman again: "Every time someone says Superman is too powerful and too boring to write, my head practically explodes, because I don't understand how you can not have the imagination to make that interesting."~Gail Simone

I think I'm in pretty good company here.

[carabas]

Okay, but judging by her run on Action comics, Gail kinda likes her Superman superpowerful but not stupidpowerful.

[Duy]

Okay, but judging by her run on Action comics, Gail kinda likes her Superman superpowerful but not stupidpowerful.
Keep in mind that Superman's power level is an editorial mandate, and not up to the writers.

There is no such thing as "stupid powerful", just "lazy writing."

Silver Surfer is more powerful than Superman, and no one notices because his villains are stronger than he is. Thor is just about as powerful, and no one complains because his villains match him. Superman needs stronger, more deadly villains, not a depowering.

The DC Universe would be more enriched by the addition or upgrading of villains and making them all legitimate threats than it ever would if Superman were to be depowered. The only people depowering Superman serves are lazy writers.

"Grant Morrison gets what fun about Superman: he's ridiculously powerful, and therefore just sees and does and has lots of incredibly cool, totally bizarre stuff. The sky isn't even close to the limit." ~Time Magazine

Superman to me is a gateway to all sorts of cool stuff; any writer who can't deal with that and needs to depower him to establish credible threats isn't earning his money.

Finally, when Grant Morrison uses blue Superman to move the moon and wrestle an angel, it's cool. Is everyone telling me that if he had regular Superman pushing the moon and wrestling an angel, it wouldn't be cool? Come on.

I once told my nephew of the time they depowered Superman because they said he was too hard to write. His response was a very simple, "Why couldn't they just give him stronger villains? Or make his villains stronger?"

Aside from utterly lazy writing/editorial, I have no answer at all to that question.

[carabas]

Keep in mind that Superman's power level is an editorial mandate, and not up to the writers.So why then does his powerlevel differ wildly from writer to writer? Jeph Loeb and Greg Rucka wrote him in different books, at the same time. They were practically different characters.

There is no such thing as "stupid powerful", just "lazy writing."I'd say that writing being lazy does in no way preclude the writing being stupid at the same time.

Silver Surfer is more powerful than Superman, and no one notices because his villains are stronger than he is. Thor is just about as powerful, and no one complains because his villains match him. Superman needs stronger, more deadly villains, not a depowering.I'm not really convinced of any of this. Certainly, both Thor and the Surfer are puny wimps compared to pre-Crisis, planet-juggling superman. Also, Thor and the Surfer tend to fight their more powerful foes far away from New York, in the deep reaches of space, or in hell, Asgard...
Superman is a mostly earthbound character.

The DC Universe would be more enriched by the addition or upgrading of villains and making them all legitimate threats than it ever would if Superman were to be depowered. The only people depowering Superman serves are lazy writers.Superman's current powerlevel is just fine, as are his villains for the most part. Want to see an underpowered rogues gallery, look at Wonder Woman's bunch of misfits.

"Grant Morrison gets what fun about Superman: he's ridiculously powerful, and therefore just sees and does and has lots of incredibly cool, totally bizarre stuff. The sky isn't even close to the limit." ~Time MagazineAnd also doesn't take place in the DCU wher that kind of ridiculous power is just unbalancing unles you also give it to th MAnhunter, Wonder Woman, a whole bunch of villains.
And then you get planet-juggling Mogul or Zod or Bizarro. Which is just silly because they'd have to be written as completely incompetenty morons or as villains who on occasion toss an inhabited planet into the sun.

Superman to me is a gateway to all sorts of cool stuff; any writer who can't deal with that and needs to depower him to establish credible threats isn't earning his money.Nobody's talking about depowering him. He's fine as is. He just doesn't need to be more powerful than he already is.

Finally, when Grant Morrison uses blue Superman to move the moon and wrestle an angel, it's cool. Is everyone telling me that if he had regular Superman pushing the moon and wrestling an angel, it wouldn't be cool? Come on.Moving the moon wasn't a feat of brure superstrength but of superscience. And he did it wearing an oxygen mask to be able to breath in space. And wrestling an angel is indeed supercool, but i no way requires a silly-powerful Superman to pull off. Electric-Blue Superman was IIRC considreably less strong than the regular version.

I once told my nephew of the time they depowered Superman because they said he was too hard to write. His response was a very simple, "Why couldn't they just give him stronger villains? Or make his villains stronger?"Because, like I said above, crazy-powerful villains either have to be written as harmles, stupid and ineffective, or they destro your universe.

[Duy]

So why then does his powerlevel differ wildly from writer to writer? Jeph Loeb and Greg Rucka wrote him in different books, at the same time. They were practically different characters.

I'd say that writing being lazy does in no way preclude the writing being stupid at the same time.

I'm not really convinced of any of this. Certainly, both Thor and the Surfer are puny wimps compared to pre-Crisis, planet-juggling superman. Also, Thor and the Surfer tend to fight their more powerful foes far away from New York, in the deep reaches of space, or in hell, Asgard...
Superman is a mostly earthbound character.

Superman's current powerlevel is just fine, as are his villains for the most part. Want to see an underpowered rogues gallery, look at Wonder Woman's bunch of misfits.

And also doesn't take place in the DCU wher that kind of ridiculous power is just unbalancing unles you also give it to th MAnhunter, Wonder Woman, a whole bunch of villains.
And then you get planet-juggling Mogul or Zod or Bizarro. Which is just silly because they'd have to be written as completely incompetenty morons or as villains who on occasion toss an inhabited planet into the sun.

Nobody's talking about depowering him. He's fine as is. He just doesn't need to be more powerful than he already is.

Moving the moon wasn't a feat of brure superstrength but of superscience. And he did it wearing an oxygen mask to be able to breath in space. And wrestling an angel is indeed supercool, but i no way requires a silly-powerful Superman to pull off. Electric-Blue Superman was IIRC considreably less strong than the regular version.

Because, like I said above, crazy-powerful villains either have to be written as harmles, stupid and ineffective, or they destro your universe.
So when it's a feat of superscience, it's cool, but if it's a feat of superstrength, it's not. Okay.

I don't buy your argument, sir. Certainly strong villains can be rendered as powerful, only to be outsmarted by Superman each time. And we were definitely talking about depowering him AT CERTAIN POINTS IN HISTORY.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Superman being powerful in epic proportions, so long as the stories written are smart. If a writer lets power level get in the way of the story, then he's being paid too much.

And that's my two cents. Superman's current power level is good enough for me, though, but only probably because I've seen the inanity of Superman wearing an oxygen mask.

[carabas]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Superman being powerful in epic proportions, so long as the stories written are smart. If a writer lets power level get in the way of the story, then he's being paid too much.See, this here, consistantly smart stories year in, year out? That is simpy never going to happen. Dumb stories always outnumber smart stories.

[Duy]

See, this here, consistantly smart stories year in, year out? That is simpy never going to happen. Dumb stories always outnumber smart stories.
And in general, that's true, no matter what the power level of the character is.

[dumbstruck]

So when it's a feat of superscience, it's cool, but if it's a feat of superstrength, it's not. Okay.

I don't buy your argument, sir. Certainly strong villains can be rendered as powerful, only to be outsmarted by Superman each time. And we were definitely talking about depowering him AT CERTAIN POINTS IN HISTORY.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Superman being powerful in epic proportions, so long as the stories written are smart. If a writer lets power level get in the way of the story, then he's being paid too much.

And that's my two cents. Superman's current power level is good enough for me, though, but only probably because I've seen the inanity of Superman wearing an oxygen mask.


One of the biggest complaints you see for Superman is that he doesn't have villains worthy of his powers. If that's a criticism of him as is, it would only increase exponentially if he was powered up. That would force all the "worthy" villains he does have to also be powered up, then suddenly you have a whole party of cosmic level villains. Not to mention all the characters and races that are supposed to be on par with Superman, such as Daxamites, and Lobo. Not sure that's the best way to go.

[Duy]

One of the biggest complaints you see for Superman is that he doesn't have villains worthy of his powers. If that's a criticism of him as is, it would only increase exponentially if he was powered up. That would force all the "worthy" villains he does have to also be powered up, then suddenly you have a whole party of cosmic level villains. Not to mention all the characters and races that are supposed to be on par with Superman, such as Daxamites, and Lobo. Not sure that's the best way to go.
Suit yourself. I liked Darkseid best when he wasn't a wuss.

[Rugal 3:16]

That's also why the Terrestial villains

Metallo
Parasite etc. had to go

only three villains are IMO worthy of supes powers..

Luthor
Braniac
Zod

A Superman Rogue SHOULD NOT BE A THUG LEVEL person with powers..

I can think of a hundred non lethal ways to beat the bizarros and parasite in seconds

F*ck in Lois and Clark, him knowing Metallo was non organic in most parts he just stayed away from him (and the Green K) and melted his body and metallo is not killed (thus he keeps his no killing policy)

And even without that

Metallo has
No Superspeed
Can't fly
THUG mentality

in Ultimate Six

Nick Fury explained to SHIELD that of all the five rogues who escaped (Doc Ock, Osborne, Kraven, Electro and Sandman) only the first two were REALLY dangerous the others being dangerous as well are still THUGS (like Pickpockets and petty thieves)

so to qualify as a superman threat..

1. Super strength
2. Super Speed
3. Can Fly
4. NOT A THUG

No Matter how dangerous Parasite is he's still a THUG

Even Silver Banshee the Magic Jobber is demoted into a supergirl rogue despite kryptonians having this "Magic Weakness"

His rogues need to be at equal par with a superman who has gone rogue with bloodlust

And Supes with Bloodlust would murder all his terrestial foes in a second

[carabas]

Guys like Luthor will always need thughs though. No mastermind is a solo act.

[Rugal 3:16]

Yes but at least the THUGS are under Luthor, not being prominently featured.

Maybe the Thugs with powers would work as a package but a single Thug-with-powers being a threat to supes requires way way wayyy to much suspension of disbelief than a man who can fly.

[Ziggy Stardust]

When you've got 100,000 others (actually far more if you count the Daxamites) with the same powers? Superman's excessive power level becomes less of a problem storywise.

Yeah, but Superman with a lead baseball bat beats them all.

[Flash's Lightning]

Yeah, but Superman with a lead baseball bat beats them all.

Yeah, well, Daxamites with a magic sword or kryptonite beats Kryptonians.

Just sayin', everyone's got a weakness.

[Pinnacle]

Suit yourself. The kids love it and it's an act of mythical proportions. The Spectre can keep parallel earths apart and it looks great; Superman moving a planet is peanuts to draw in comparison.

You're comparing him to the Spectre?????????????????????????

As far as perspective and the image goes

1. Superman is only a little over six feet tall whereas the Spectre is a supernatural entity that can be as big as he wants. Superman's size is very small in comparison to the entire Earth so....No, it is not "peanuts to draw in comparison."

2. The Spectre is a force of God. Superman should approach deity but never cross it. I have no problem with him approaching godhood like Hercules or even wrestling an angel. But moving planets or being on the level of the Spectre is just ridiculous.

I'm not someone who believes in a depowered Superman. I think Byrne went too far. I have no problem with Loeb's power levels for him. But moving planets is just ridiculous. If you make him capable of that, then not even Mongul is a threat.

[themango55]

@ Hulk and Superman strength, Hulk has theoretically unlimited strength, even greater than Superman. But his inability to fly means applications of that strength is far less than Superman has.

Hulk could never push a planet for example, because he's rooted to the planet through gravity, pushing against it would only lift himself off the ground, no matter how much strength he puts into the push.

[Rugal 3:16]

You're comparing him to the

I'm not someone who believes in a depowered Superman. I think Byrne went too far. I have no problem with Loeb's power levels for him. But moving planets is just ridiculous. If you make him capable of that, then not even Mongul is a threat.

Mongul in a physical match IMO is not even a threat maybe a Tier above the THUGS i've mentioned but all he has is superstrength

He doesn't have superspeed
and he can't fly

An absolute Bloodlust Superman (who cheats and wins the easiest way possible, from a distance if he has to) would kill him clean.

[carabas]

@ Hulk and Superman strength, Hulk has theoretically unlimited strength, even greater than Superman. But his inability to fly means applications of that strength is far less than Superman has.

Hulk could never push a planet for example, because he's rooted to the planet through gravity, pushing against it would only lift himself off the ground, no matter how much strength he puts into the push.
a) Loeb has established, I think in Superman/Batman, that Supes has no upper limit either.
b) such paltry physics do not apply to the Hulk who has once obliterated a GALAXY with a handclap. Or so I'm told.

An absolute Bloodlust Superman (who cheats and wins the easiest way possible, from a distance if he has to) would kill him clean.
Okay, but there isn't a character in comics that a bloodlusting, speedblitzing Superman cannot kill (except for a bloodlusting Flash, who'd see his eye beams coming a relative hour in advance and would fetch kryptonite and a red sunlamp, steel Superman's speed, and then just pummel him into a greasy smear on the floor.

[Paladin573]

a)
b) such paltry physics do not apply to the Hulk who has once obliterated a GALAXY with a handclap. Or so I'm told.
.

Come on we all know that the Hulk is the strongest there is!!!

[AllisterH]

And in general, that's true, no matter what the power level of the character is.

That's not entirely true...

In a Batman story, I tend to find myself asking "how is Batman going to come out of this?"

In a Superman story, I tend to find myself asking "how is Villain du jour going to challenge Superman"...

In a comicbook I don't think I should be thinking about the latter but the former...

[dumbstruck]

That's not entirely true...

In a Batman story, I tend to find myself asking "how is Batman going to come out of this?"

In a Superman story, I tend to find myself asking "how is Villain du jour going to challenge Superman"...

In a comicbook I don't think I should be thinking about the latter but the former...


In a lot of Batman comics nowadays, the answer is "He already planned for it, so he'll pull out his Bat-Villain Defeater from his utility belt."

In Superman comics, the answer is largely, they don't.

Both extremes that need to be moderated.

[Captain Commander]

b) such paltry physics do not apply to the Hulk who has once obliterated a GALAXY with a handclap. Or so I'm told.

I can't remember that one. Though Supes did once sneeze away a galaxy. :eek:

[hunter_peterson]

Rulk farted away a galaxy. Then punched it in the face and raped it.

[hunter_peterson]

On a serious note, I think it's foolish to say Superman is without exploitable limitations.

For one, he feels the need to save everybody all the time, allowing a getaway if done right. Also he has several vulnerable people around him.

And he's not all that clever. No idiot, but not particularly gifted. Any tricks of the mind that work on an average person work on him.

Although I do tend to think he's overpowered. He needs to be able to be knocked down sometimes without it being Darkseid that does it.

[Captain Smith]

Well, if you look at the GLC preview - it looks like all of Daxam goes Kryptonian level - given Ion's intervention.

Thus, we have 100K Kryptonians plus all of Daxam - so the point about Supes' power level is moot. He's just one of the gang. Yes, he has a nice Kansas personality - so what.

[Mike Smith]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Superman being powerful in epic proportions, so long as the stories written are smart. If a writer lets power level get in the way of the story, then he's being paid too much.



If I'm not mistaken, Ms. Simone said something to the same point and I definitely agree.

[Seven_Ride]

A lot of the powers are hokey, such as super-breathe, super-reading and super-intelligence.

I'd prefer it if they kept just the core powers of flight, super-strength, some super-speed, relative invulnerability, and heat vision. Oh yeah, and not needing to breathe in space. Some writers are going to power him up, some will limit it downward. Both are fine. Once it becomes about power levels on a 10-point scale, the level of nerdage is too high for me. He's Superman; he should simply be an unstoppable force for good, a mighty bad-ass. Now THERE's some editorial direction for you, DC writers!

[Jimmy'sFriend]

I like the super hokey powers. I think need more of them.

[Duy]

I always thought superbreath was just really an extension of superstrength, and in a way so is superspeed.

[Rugal 3:16]

Superman by definition is SUPPOSED to be powerful.

[carabas]

Superman by definition is SUPPOSED to be powerful.Nobody is arguing this. The debate is about how powerful.

One of the most powerful beings on earth? The most powerful? Most powerful in the entire DCU? Exponentially more powerfull than the runner up?

[Mat001]

Well, if you look at the GLC preview - it looks like all of Daxam goes Kryptonian level - given Ion's intervention.

Thus, we have 100K Kryptonians plus all of Daxam - so the point about Supes' power level is moot. He's just one of the gang. Yes, he has a nice Kansas personality - so what.

It means that unlike everyone else, he acts responsibily when he uses his powers. He's doing it for selfless reasons. This is what sets him apart from the Kryptonians and the Daxamites.

[Duy]

It means that unlike everyone else, he acts responsibily when he uses his powers. He's doing it for selfless reasons. This is what sets him apart from the Kryptonians and the Daxamites.
Also, maybe, just MAYBE, it's not the POWERS that make the character.

[Flash's Lightning]

Also, maybe, just MAYBE, it's not the POWERS that make the character.

Well said. That's what I was saying up above when I posted pictures of him without powers.

When you boil it down to its essence, it doesn't matter if Superman can juggle planets or barely lift a bowling ball - the sum total of his powers has never been his strength. It's always been in his character. Always.

Even Steel noted this.

[Mat001]

Also, maybe, just MAYBE, it's not the POWERS that make the character.

Indeed. This is why only Supergirl, Power Girl and Superboy have been so well trusted by Earth's heroes and at one point, the residents of Earth. They have strong character and use their powers in the service of good. Look at Lex when he finally got his Everyman powers. He started using it for evil. Zod and the Phantom Zoners. Hank Henshaw went nuts. Chris spent a short period of time with Clark and Lois and look at him now. Then you have the Kryptonians who showed little regard for human life. From Gor and Mur flying away when asked to help, to the Kryptonian who killed a whale because it bit him.

Power is a part of Superman, but it is the character that defines him. Even among all those who are just as powerful of him, he is better than them. He's more experienced than them, wiser than them and far more compassionate. The Super is the power, but it is the Man who uses it wisely.

[Hullababy]

Superman should be able to move planets. Yes its ridiculous but that is the point. If you can't see that, you're not seeing it right. The core concept of Superman is that despite being God like int terms of power levels, he is more human than actual humans. You strip his powers down, "marvelize" him and try to make him "relatable", you destroy the very concept behind the character.

[carabas]

I feel the need to point out that god-level powers (and even flight) were not part of the concept of the character. He was designed more orless on Luke Cage's power level.

And if, like Hangmanjury said, it's not the POWERS that make the character, then does he really need powers on a level that make the rest of his universe as useful as keystone cops?

[dumbstruck]

I prefer Superman over Superman.

[Skeleton]

I have always thought Superman was too powered up, I know I know, he's named Superman so he kind of has to be God-like, but I've always thought it was too much. If you could take away one power of Superman what would it be? Would he still be qualified to carry the name Superman without it? If it was up to me, I would do the super-breathe.

So, what is it? Do you agree or disagree with me?

I would take away his "indestructibility". he can fly, have a super-breath (wich is probably the most useless among his powers) move at the speed of light, but if you could kill him with simple knife, his adventures would be much more exciting!

[UltraMagnetic]

I have always thought Superman was too powered up, I know I know, he's named Superman so he kind of has to be God-like, but I've always thought it was too much. If you could take away one power of Superman what would it be? Would he still be qualified to carry the name Superman without it? If it was up to me, I would do the super-breathe.

So, what is it? Do you agree or disagree with me?

Disagree. If you think Superman is too powerful then you obviously haven't been keeping up with Green Lantern, the Flash, Firestorm, Martian Manhunter, Batgod, and whoever else writers feel deserves a bump.

I don't think Superman is too powerful, I think writers are too lazy. They should give Superman more creativity in the use of his powers.

[Rugal 3:16]

I feel the need to point out that god-level powers (and even flight) were not part of the concept of the character. He was designed more orless on Luke Cage's power level.

That was the embryotic stages, based on his concept at a time of deppression, but his ultimate potential was reached during the 60's and that's when he had the godlike powers.


And if, like Hangmanjury said, it's not the POWERS that make the character, then does he really need powers on a level that make the rest of his universe as useful as keystone cops?

and Ideally that way of conceptiualizing a supehero makes superman just like every other Man in tight, one key concept of Superman in his full potential is more majestic when presented as a Dude with uber powers above everyone else yet is still grounded and humble. that's what makes him unique

Elliot S Maggin said it best that the biggest pitfall any new writer does with him is power him down that's always a kneejerk and shortsigted take on the character.

He's not an easy character to write i'll grant him that but all arguments favouring him being weaker are really born more on a symptom of humanities of "no one should be better than anyone" motiff and promotes cynicism. being too powerful makes people feel inferior even when it shouldn't it;s the

People Love to See a Hero fall = People Love Supes being weaker

Flawed cynical (aalthough can be a subconscious response and something people might not immediately or purposely realize but it stems from such a subconscious streak) argument as opposed to what supes represents

[carabas]

People Love to See a Hero fall = People Love Supes being weakerI am not convinced that these two statements are related, ot even that th first one is true.

IMO people far more like seeing a fallen hero get up again.

But people do love Superman being weaker. But you left out the qualifier there: weaker than what (or more accurately, weaker than when)?
Right now he's probably the most powerful he's been in ages, and he's just fine.
He's still only got a fraction of hi ludicrous pre-Crisis power level, but that is just fine.

What worked then does not necesarily work just as well 30-50 years later. Isn't it enough that he is by far the most powerful superhero on Earth and that he is globally respected an all that? Does he really have to be 100 times as powerful as the next runner up?

[galeharu]

Superman has been given increased powers over the years for reasons obvious, yet not so obvious. The Crisises are continuing to become harder and harder to accomplish with the limitations set by the modern age writers.

So they make him stronger.
And think about it, the more the guy ages the stronger he becomes. Just look at the Superman from Kingdom Come. He is the picture painted of a Superman years older, and is much stronger than the Superman of now. So as the Man of steel continues to grow in power people complain. My question is: Why?
He has allways shown to be one of the ridiculously empowered beings in comic books, this is a DC staple. No suprises. So stop arguing about it.

And to conforn to the arguement, I would take superspeed away. Its not like he uses it much anyway being that flying is more versatile and less strenuous.

[galeharu]

Nobody is arguing this. The debate is about how powerful.

One of the most powerful beings on earth? The most powerful? Most powerful in the entire DCU? Exponentially more powerfull than the runner up?

NO. you misunderstand. How powerful makes no matter. Its how he uses his powers. That is what makes him Superman. Quote from Infinite Crisis: "It doesn't matter what powers you have, where you were born, or what you wear on your chest... Its about what you do, it's about action."

[carabas]

If you read my posts in this thread, you'll see you're preaching to the choir there.

[Mike Smith]

NO. you misunderstand. How powerful makes no matter. Its how he uses his powers. That is what makes him Superman. Quote from Infinite Crisis: "It doesn't matter what powers you have, where you were born, or what you wear on your chest... Its about what you do, it's about action."

Whilte that's cute, it's somewhat boring too. It's about both. Superman should stand for heroism, but he also shouldn't be mediocre. He should be among the most physically powerful heroes in the DC universe, bottom line. Superman sets the standard for powers, and heroics. :)

[Rugal 3:16]

But people do love Superman being weaker.

for the same reason Gen-Xers are anti-authority and everything squeeky clean and righteous is mocked to no end. If someone is indeed acknowledged to be superior it makes people bad about themselves.

Superman kind of represents a parental figure that people love to rebel against, so making him weaker makes the pessimists feel better.

Plus Hulk Thor and other class 100 marvel fans love it either when they always sprout out an argument about (insert class 100 character) is stronger than Superman.

OK to answer one of your questions

If superman shouldn't be infinitely Strong (which the Hulk is too but nobody complains) he should at least be stronger than Hulk (base level for arguments sake) Thor and Juggernaut.

[carabas]

I do'nt think Superman's power level should be dependant on the powerlevel of characters from other companies.

But he can't be stronger than the Hulk since the Hulk's strength is essentially infinite and can always be kicked up a few notches by becoming even more angry. Which is of course completely ludicrous and which I have seen various people complain about.

Juggernaut isn't particularily strong compared to the others, he just has a magical ability that allows him to keep walking forward no matter what, even when a bunch of characters with a combined strength a thousand times greater than his are trying to get him to stand still.

But I do feel that characters with only one power should be better at that power than characters who have a whole bunch of powers.
Superman is strong, fast, smart, shoots lasers... the Hulk is just strong. And the Flash is just fast. Seems a bit sad that when all you can do is run very fast, but you're not even the fastest guy on your team.

[Mat001]

Considering what was said in "The Flash: Rebirth" #3, I'd say that last sentence doesn't hold weight anymore.

[carabas]

Not being interested in that book at all after having read #1, that statement is devoid of meaning for me.

But I was speaking hypothetically.

[Mat001]

Barry tells Clark that he was always holding back in their races. Meaning that Barry was always faster than Clark and was running a more fair race.

[carabas]

That seems like a very silly and pointles retcon.
Also rather improbable. and letting the other guy win is the oppsite of fair.

[Melfice]

But he can't be stronger than the Hulk since the Hulk's strength is essentially infinite and can always be kicked up a few notches by becoming even more angry. Which is of course completely ludicrous and which I have seen various people complain about.

The whole idea of this is stupid. The Hulk char was never like that back in the day. I hate when companies do things like this. And from the reviews of the Hulk series over the past few months, its pretty bad ahah

Reboots sometimes are a bad thing I think.

[Ilash]

That seems like a very silly and pointles retcon.
Also rather improbable. and letting the other guy win is the oppsite of fair.

Well, maybe but I think it's silly for Superman to have every been faster than the Flash. Besides, back before Wally came into contact with the Speed Force and I think he maxed out at like a few timed the speed of sound, Superman still had trouble keeping up with him. After that? Forget about it. Clearly Wally and presumably Barry are way faster than Superman could ever hope to be.

As for the original point, Superman's power levels are actually fairly irrelevant. Aside for Kryptonite, Superman's true weakness is that he cares deeply about everybody around him, not whether someone could beat him in a punch up.

Of course, this thread has been around for a while and I'm sure this has already been mentioned but I thought I'd throw in my two cents anyway.

[Colby]

To be fair, I think that having the Flash beat Superman makes perfect sense. What I have trouble with is the idea of Superman being able to go toe to toe with people like Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, or Darkseid. It doesn't make any sense to me.

[carabas]

Well, maybe but I think it's silly for Superman to have every been faster than the Flash.Of course it is. But once upon a time, Superman was faster, back in the pre-Crisis era, when he was a thousand timùes more powerful than he is now.

Rather than retconning this by saying that Barry just let him win for some nonsensical reason, why simply not mention it at all? Why not retcon it to into Barry always having been faster and winning those damn silly races in the first place? It's not as if Superman's pre-Crisis powerlevels are still in continuity.

[Mat001]

The whole idea of this is stupid. The Hulk char was never like that back in the day. I hate when companies do things like this. And from the reviews of the Hulk series over the past few months, its pretty bad ahah

Reboots sometimes are a bad thing I think.

"The madder Hulk gets, the stronger Hulk becomes!"

That's been one of his mantras since the late 60's. More specificially, the Savage Hulk's. And that has always been implied since that version became dominant. It wasn't a reboot but an evolution of the character that finally reached its apex with "World War Hulk".

Of course it is. But once upon a time, Superman was faster, back in the pre-Crisis era, when he was a thousand timùes more powerful than he is now.

Rather than retconning this by saying that Barry just let him win for some nonsensical reason, why simply not mention it at all? Why not retcon it to into Barry always having been faster and winning those damn silly races in the first place? It's not as if Superman's pre-Crisis powerlevels are still in continuity.

No, but Superman is still one of the fastest beings. All it does is give validations to the times when Superman won, as well as why they were at times neck and neck.

What I have trouble with is the idea of Superman being able to go toe to toe with people like Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, or Darkseid. It doesn't make any sense to me.

Because Kryptonians are powerful. Wonder Woman is an Amazon and a warrior, which helps, but in terms of brute power, they're almost even. He just edges her out because of his alien physique. Captain Marvel derives his strength from Zeus and Hercules, and speed from Mercury. But like Superman, Billy Baston holds back. He never cuts loose which is why when Superman fights Black Adam, he has a tough time of it. Adam doesn't hold back unless he chooses to. Darkseid, well, that's a result of the stories being written in a Superman book and not a New Gods book. That's why Morrison went with the final confrontation in "Final Crisis", rather than what was done in "The Supergirl From Krypton", "Torment", "Countdown To Final Crisis" and "Apokalips Now!"

[3D Master]

Superman should be able to move planets. Yes its ridiculous but that is the point. If you can't see that, you're not seeing it right. The core concept of Superman is that despite being God like int terms of power levels, he is more human than actual humans. You strip his powers down, "marvelize" him and try to make him "relatable", you destroy the very concept behind the character.

That's not the very concept behind the character. The concept behind the character is a super human strong man that fights for truth and justice, and will even fight the establishment and established exploitative company bosses - and he did so with being very tough, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound, faster than a speeding bullet, and more powerful than a locomotive. And oh, yeah, in his concept, he can NOT even fly.

It's just fanboy-like writers that later kept increasing his power levels and abilities and speed, going, "Cool, huh, huh." And when a character came along that was better at Superman in one of the things he's really good at; especially if it's characters gained by buying another comics company (like the Flash) they promptly boosted his power to once again be the best at everything.

Elliot S Maggin said it best that the biggest pitfall any new writer does with him is power him down that's always a kneejerk and shortsigted take on the character.

He's not an easy character to write i'll grant him that but all arguments favouring him being weaker are really born more on a symptom of humanities of "no one should be better than anyone" motiff and promotes cynicism. being too powerful makes people feel inferior even when it shouldn't it;s the

People Love to See a Hero fall = People Love Supes being weaker

Flawed cynical (aalthough can be a subconscious response and something people might not immediately or purposely realize but it stems from such a subconscious streak) argument as opposed to what supes represents

People love to see a hero fall, not because they want to see him fall, because they want to see him get back up afterward. That's the true essence of a hero, and especially Superman's character, his true power. They will fight for those who can't, and they will never give up. Someone may break his bones, tear pieces of flesh off of him, cut him open in twenty places, but if there is someway for him to get back up and stand in between innocent victims and the one who just did all that to him, he will.

And if there is no way for him to fall, no way for him to be broken - what's the point of that character?

[Mat001]

That's not the very concept behind the character. The concept behind the character is a super human strong man that fights for truth and justice, and will even fight the establishment and established exploitative company bosses - and he did so with being very tough, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound, faster than a speeding bullet, and more powerful than a locomotive. And oh, yeah, in his concept, he can NOT even fly.

It's just fanboy-like writers that later kept increasing his power levels and abilities and speed, going, "Cool, huh, huh." And when a character came along that was better at Superman in one of the things he's really good at; especially if it's characters gained by buying another comics company (like the Flash) they promptly boosted his power to once again be the best at everything.

That's not entirely accurate. Stuff such as flying came while Siegel and Shuster were still working together. And at the time, the writers weren't fanboys. They were writers working to make a living. The fans didn't come until later, but Superman's power levels were already increasing before he pushed his first planet.

People love to see a hero fall, not because they want to see him fall, because they want to see him get back up afterward. That's the true essence of a hero, and especially Superman's character, his true power. They will fight for those who can't, and they will never give up. Someone may break his bones, tear pieces of flesh off of him, cut him open in twenty places, but if there is someway for him to get back up and stand in between innocent victims and the one who just did all that to him, he will.

And if there is no way for him to fall, no way for him to be broken - what's the point of that character?

Superman can still move planets and fall. You just make the threats bigger and badder.

[UltraMagnetic]

I can't remember if it was said already in this thread or not (to lazy to search). But when it comes to fictional heroes, it's not so much of if he'll win (because they usually do) but how. Superman isn't omnipotent so even if you double his power levels a good writer should still come up with a way to make the heroes adventure(s) and road to victory exciting and worth reading.

Personally, I'm tired of writers pussyfootin' around Superman's powerlevel.

[3D Master]

That's not entirely accurate. Stuff such as flying came while Siegel and Shuster were still working together. And at the time, the writers weren't fanboys. They were writers working to make a living. The fans didn't come until later, but Superman's power levels were already increasing before he pushed his first planet.

Flying came from the cartoon because the jumping didn't look good. And whether Siegel and Shuster did any powering up, doesn't matter.

Superman can still move planets and fall. You just make the threats bigger and badder.

Which means you remove the concept of Superman that he fights for Truth and Justice and stands up for the little man against corporate exploitation. That's the problem, he becomes just another slugger dealing with the next Superman+ strength baddy. He becomes apart from the world, when he's supposed to be standing in it.

[Mike Smith]

That's not the very concept behind the character. The concept behind the character is a super human strong man that fights for truth and justice, and will even fight the establishment and established exploitative company bosses - and he did so with being very tough, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound, faster than a speeding bullet, and more powerful than a locomotive. And oh, yeah, in his concept, he can NOT even fly.

Because every other comic/serial vigilante, hero, fighter for justice was gallivanting about..tight-rope walking electricity lines, lifting cars overhead and leaping across cities around the time of Superman? :). Not so much.

Superman should be a pinnacle hero and his powerset and abilities do matter. The more he is watered down he becomes in personality, power and mind, the more boring he becomes.

Should he be towing 30 planets on a line of string or racing Supergirl in a race that spans trillions of miles, that lasts not even a second? Probably not.

Should he be able to pulverize a small moon (which he recently did), solo most threats, definitively turn the tide of battle and be among the true top tier of heroes and villains? Yes, he should.

Try to equalize things too much between Clark and his new contemporaries and you end up with a watered down, historically steeped character who will become irrelevant in due time. This lame 'it's the hero that matters, not the powers' mantra is trite.

The heroics matter AND the powers matter. A writer who cannot write a powerful, godly Superman and keep a story fresh does not deserve to be writing his character at all. Just as speed should rightfully be the Flash's thing, amazing power and abilities far beyond his buddies should be Superman's thing.

Come to mention it, his Kryptonian mind should be portrayed as a bit more scientific, smart as well.

[carabas]

A writer who cannot write a powerful, godly Superman and keep a story fresh does not deserve to be writing his character at all.
The thing is, in the entire history of the characters, there have been only a handful writers who could actually pull that off consistantly.
And there's 44-66 pages of Superman comics to be filled each and every month, year in, year out.

[Mat001]

Flying came from the cartoon because the jumping didn't look good. And whether Siegel and Shuster did any powering up, doesn't matter.

Why, because they choose to empower Superman?

Which means you remove the concept of Superman that he fights for Truth and Justice and stands up for the little man against corporate exploitation. That's the problem, he becomes just another slugger dealing with the next Superman+ strength baddy. He becomes apart from the world, when he's supposed to be standing in it.

But he still stands in the world. He still fights for truth and justice, standing up for the little man. He also fights threats to the world and cleans up disasters. He tries to help the homeless, while trying to take down the Lex Luthors of the world.

[Slaughter]

What I have trouble with is the idea of Superman being able to go toe to toe with Darkseid. It doesn't make any sense to me.


This. Since Loeb came around, Darkseid became a jobber. As strong as Superman is, Darkseid belongs to another tier. Superman is a alien capable of fighting gods. Darkseid is a god who kills and frightens entire patheons of gods, then devastates entire interstellar civilizations with his armies of Parademons and super-advanced space ships that fire doomsday weapons.

I think Thanos underwent the same "jobbering" for a time, too. I swear I saw a comic on the web where Thanos got owned by Hellcat and Spider-Man because "he let go" of a cosmic cube. Then he was arrested with hand-cuffs like some two-bit criminal. Sad, but hilarious.

[3D Master]

Because every other comic/serial vigilante, hero, fighter for justice was gallivanting about..tight-rope walking electricity lines, lifting cars overhead and leaping across cities around the time of Superman? :). Not so much.

Superman should be a pinnacle hero and his powerset and abilities do matter. The more he is watered down he becomes in personality, power and mind, the more boring he becomes.

Yeah, which would be why he would have to return to his original true heroic self, and stand up against rich exploiters of the weak and poor. He's been watered down over the years to the big blue boyscout that's doing nothing but shouting about how great America is, and then spends his time slugging it out with doomsday and darkseid; just a run of the mill super hero.

Try to equalize things too much between Clark and his new contemporaries and you end up with a watered down, historically steeped character who will become irrelevant in due time. This lame 'it's the hero that matters, not the powers' mantra is trite.

The heroics matter AND the powers matter. A writer who cannot write a powerful, godly Superman and keep a story fresh does not deserve to be writing his character at all. Just as speed should rightfully be the Flash's thing, amazing power and abilities far beyond his buddies should be Superman's thing.

And you see, this is the problem. Making him mister powerful more powerful then all the other superheroes, is what has watered him down. The only reason why he was the most powerful when he was created, because there was no one else. Artificially powering him up just because equally and more powerful super heroes came along, and just because it was cool to do so, had been diminishing Superman. If he had remained as he was in the beginning; maybe gaining flight and no more, I will bet you Superman would be appreciated much more than he is today.

A writer who cannot write a powerful, godly Superman and keep a story fresh does not deserve to be writing his character at all.

Then the character does not get written at all.

[carabas]

This. Since Loeb came around, Darkseid became a jobber.As much as I dilslike Loeb, he just continued Darkseid's long standing status quo of the guy that gets beaten up by Superman.

Of course, he worsened it to make Darkseid the guy that gets bluffed and almost beaten up by Batman.

[Ilash]

As much as I dilslike Loeb, he just continued Darkseid's long standing status quo of the guy that gets beaten up by Superman.

Of course, he worsened it to make Darkseid the guy that gets bluffed and almost beaten up by Batman.

Eh, nothing that he did to Superman, Batman or Darkseid come close to what he did to Lex Luthor. After years of maintaining that brilliant characterisation of being a genius business man as set up by Byrne, Loeb set him off on a path of returning to the frankly moronic mad scientist persona.

[carabas]

Yeah. I just can't see the man who actually died of cancer caused by his green K-ring injecting himself with the stuff.

The whole characterisation came out of nowhere. It's as if Loeb had never read a post-Crisis Superman comic. And unfortunately, it seems to have stuck.

[Ilash]

Yeah. I just can't see the man who actually died of cancer caused by his green K-ring injecting himself with the stuff.

The whole characterisation came out of nowhere. It's as if Loeb had never read a post-Crisis Superman comic. And unfortunately, it seems to have stuck.

It's especially annoying because of all the things to come out of Byrne's revamp of Superman, his version of Lex Luthor was by far the most impressive. He made him both a fascinatingly complex character and a villain that Superman would actually have a very hard time defeating.

[Mat001]

To be fair, Lex as he is now is more a result of JL/JLU than Jeph Loeb. Bruce Timm and his team showed us how a Lex Luthor could operate like that, all the way back in early 2002. Loeb was just the first to use it in the comics.

[Ilash]

To be fair, Lex as he is now is more a result of JL/JLU than Jeph Loeb. Bruce Timm and his team showed us how a Lex Luthor could operate like that, all the way back in early 2002. Loeb was just the first to use it in the comics.

And yet oddly enough, the animated Lex still feels closer to the Byrne version to me than the more Silver Agey one that Loeb wrote.

[Surtur]

One thing I never understand is why people always single out Superman with the "He's too powerful" argument when DC has a whole host of heroes who are on the same level with the guy, many of which could overpower him if it wasn't for PIS/CIS: Captain Marvel has usually been written as his equal but without the magic/kryptonite/red sun weaknesses (infact he can channel magic); Green Lantern can make his ring do anything he wants and has bugger all weaknesses himself (making a GL feel fear is a lot harder than dumping a radioctive rock next to him); Martian Manhunter may be slightly less powerful strength/speed wise but has a wealth of other powers to make up for it (mind control, phasing, morphing etc); flash goes so fast and has so many "speed force" plot devices that almost none of the heroes or villians can even touch the guy when he goes all out etc etc.

Superman may be powerful but he lives in a powerful universe and compared to a number of his peers, he has a great number of weaknesses to offset his great strength.

Exactly, if you're gonna complain about Superman, then start complaining about the Flash, Martian Manhunter, and Green Lanterns as well..and that's just for starters.

The DCU is an incredibly powerful universe, why this upsets people or why people seem to think Superman sit's on a tier above everyone else is mind boggling. It'd be one thing if he was the only one with wacky feats, but he's far from it. Hell even in the Pre Crisis days there were still characters a lot stronger than him.

So when someone starts talking about Superman being too powerful, the first thing that comes to mind is that said person really doesn't keep up with the very comics they are talking about.