Was Barry Allen the Token Permanent Death?

[Lorendiac]

Ignoring Post-Crisis retcons for the moment, high-profile members of the Silver Age JLA in the comics of the 1960s included:

Superman (Clark)
Batman (Bruce)
Wonder Woman (Diana)
Aquaman (Arthur, or later Orin)
Atom (Ray)
Martian Manhunter (J'onn)
Hawkman (Katar)
Green Arrow (Oliver)
Green Lantern (Hal)
Flash (Barry)

Barry Allen, of course, was killed off in "Crisis on Infinite Earths" in 1985. He was soon replaced by Wally West, his former sidekick as "Kid Flash." Now, at first glance that seems like no big deal. After all, nearly everyone else on that list has at some time been:

A) killed off for more than a couple of issues, or
B) replaced in the role by a younger character for more than a couple of issues, or
C) both A and B!

Except that for everyone else, it proved to be a temporary condition. In Hal Jordan's case, that temporary condition lasted about 11 years, but that's still "temporary" instead of "permanent," right?

I'm not sure if the Martian Manhunter has ever been killed off, but I gather in the 70s and early 80s he would go several years at a time in Comic Book Limbo, with a rare appearance or two on special occasions. Also, I think he once left the JLA in the early 90s and then basically "replaced himself" by disguising himself as a new hero named Bloodwynd. Does that count?

But ignoring that . . . almost everybody else except Barry has either died or otherwise quit his superhero identity for awhile, and later come back. Is it possible that Barry Allen has become the Token Permanent Death? The Sole Martyr to the idea that "anything can happen at DC, even a big name dying and staying dead"?

Perhaps DC has left him dead all these years so that they have at least ONE example they can proudly wave in our faces of a high-profile superhero, a founding member of the Silver Age JLA and all that, who "really and truly" died and has stayed that way ever since. So that when fans complain that death doesn't really seem to mean anything except a way to give us a sudden shock, and then undo it a few years later, DC editors can say, "Hey, wait a minute! We did sacrifice a Major Character once and let him stay dead for the next couple of decades! Remember Barry Allen? And besides him, there was . . . um, let me think . . . there was . . . well, the point is that Barry Allen serves as a great example of how serious we can be about the death of a Big Name Superhero when we really set our minds to it!"

If I'm right, this could mean that Barry is just about the ONLY dead superhero who will NEVER come back, because as long as DC has his Permanent Death to point to, they figure they can get away with bringing back anyone and everyone else. What do you think?

[Tynne]

Before and after Reboot, dead Legionnaires for the most part remained dead. Ferro Lad, Chemical King, Two of Triplicate Girl/Du Damel's bodies, Karate Kid, Supergirl, Magnetic Kid, Blok, and Sun Boy...all died and remained dead.

After the Reboot the first Kid Quantum, Leviathan, Monstress, and Element Lad all died and remained dead.

As the first true teenage super-hero team soap opera of the Silver Age, I would say the Legion counts as "high profile". :)

[stealthwise]

I think Barry was killed because they adequately replaced him. I like Wally a lot more now.

[Tazer]

Yo.

well, I think there are others who've been killed and havent returned (and werent necessarily small characters): Wonder Woman, Zatara, Sargon the Sorceror (I think he's gone), the original Firebrand, the Red Bee, Bat Woman, Air Wave, the Star-Spangled Kid, Dove, Aquagirl.......my memory conks out there.

but so far all have remained dead to date.




Tazer

[stealthwise]

Wonder Woman's dead?

[DLH1970]

Wonder Woman's dead?

Not Diana. Her mother Hippolyta became the golden age Wonder Woman.

[Tazer]

Yo.

Wonder Woman died during Crisis.




Tazer

[Tynne]

To clarify, the Earth-1 (or Silver Age) Wonder Woman was hit by an energy bolt during the final battle with the Anti-Monitor and seemingly killed.

But Harbinger noted that the blast instead caused Diana to de-age...then for the events of her life to "unwind". Gradually memories of her faded, and the stage was set for the George Perez revamp a year or so later.

[Alex Dragon]

Barry Allen will probably never come back and shouldn't because Wally is a far more interesting character. Being killed in "CRISIS" was probably the most interesting thing to happen to Barry.
Take away the nostalgia fact and there's little that him exciting or interesting. I personally found everything about the Barry Allen character extremely bland, particularly when he was out of costume. Wally is much more interesting and complex both in and out of costume.

But then again, I feel the same way about Hal Jordan.

[Tazer]

Yo.

I personally found everything about the Barry Allen character extremely bland, particularly when he was out of costume. Wally is much more interesting and complex both in and out of costume.

But then again, I feel the same way about Hal Jordan.

I think this was more a sign of the times that weaknesses of character; Wally didnt get interesting as a character (to me) until he stopped using Barrys old costume which was ish #50 IIRC.

either way, the 2 men simply got written differently: Barry was more of the thinker-type while Wally really just winged it. to this day I still think Barry could prolly beat Wally even given Wally's greater access to the SF, but thats IMNSHO.




Tazer

[Paradox]

I'm pretty sure Katar Hol is gone for good (unless you want to count the part of him that's stuck in Carter's memory). I always liked him, but given the mess he became, I sure HOPE he's gone for good.

[Lorendiac]

Before and after Reboot, dead Legionnaires for the most part remained dead. Ferro Lad, Chemical King, Two of Triplicate Girl/Du Damel's bodies, Karate Kid, Supergirl, Magnetic Kid, Blok, and Sun Boy...all died and remained dead.

After the Reboot the first Kid Quantum, Leviathan, Monstress, and Element Lad all died and remained dead.

As the first true teenage super-hero team soap opera of the Silver Age, I would say the Legion counts as "high profile". :)

Now I'm confused. It would help a lot if you mentioned which Reboot you're talking about. :)

I had the impression, for instance, that the big Zero Hour Reboot destroyed ALL Legion continuity prior to that time. I also had the impression that DC is now going through that same thing all over again, letting Mark Waid launch a new Legion series in which all the previous stuff of the last ten years didn't happen either. If I'm right (and I admit that I haven't actually been buying new Legion comics anytime in the last ten years or more) then perhaps you're only referring to the Post-Crisis version of the Legion, up until Zero Hour or something?

Or, if I'm completely wrong about all previous deaths (and everything else that ever happened to the Legionnaires!) having basically been totally erased on two separate occasions, let me know!

[Lorendiac]

Yo.

well, I think there are others who've been killed and havent returned (and werent necessarily small characters): Wonder Woman, Zatara, Sargon the Sorceror (I think he's gone), the original Firebrand, the Red Bee, Bat Woman, Air Wave, the Star-Spangled Kid, Dove, Aquagirl.......my memory conks out there.

but so far all have remained dead to date.


Most of those people have become very obscure these days, even if they weren't always that way. None of them were ever members of the JLA, were they? Especially not in the early days when it was basically a membership requirement to be carrying your own series at the same time?

To show I can nitpick with the best of them . . . by the original Firebrand, do you mean Rod Reilly, the original Firebrand of the early 1940s? Or were you thinking of Firebrand #2, his cute sister Danette Reilly, invented by Roy Thomas for "All-Star Squadron" in the early 80s so he could retroactively insert some new (and feminine) blood into his tales of "Golden Age" WWII-era heroes?

And as far as that goes, I've heard rumors that Batwoman may never have existed in the first place in modern Bat-continuity, at least in the opinions of some of the writers and editors of the last several years. I'm not too clear on that. I do seem to recall that her niece Bat-Girl (even predated the Barbara Gordon Batgirl!) has been retconned into a minor wannabe superhero called "Flamebird" who never called herself Bat-Anything and was never involved in regular teamups with Batman and the first Robin way back when.

[Tynne]

I had the impression, for instance, that the big Zero Hour Reboot destroyed ALL Legion continuity prior to that time.

That was I the Reboot I mentioned. Three years later they revealed that the previous Legion stories had still happened though, thanks to their being multiple futures of the DCU. Thus all of the Pre Zero Hour Legionnnaires who died remained dead. The continuity was not erased, we did see a new one start though.


I also had the impression that DC is now going through that same thing all over again, letting Mark Waid launch a new Legion series in which all the previous stuff of the last ten years didn't happen either.

The Reboot Legion was "Lost" at the end of the recent Teen Titans/Legion special, but the comic went out of it's way to make clear that the timeline they came from was not erased.

The New Legion series takes place in yet another possible future. Nothing has been erased, we're just looking at another possible permutation of the team.

[Tazer]

Yo.

Most of those people have become very obscure these days, even if they weren't always that way. None of them were ever members of the JLA, were they? Especially not in the early days when it was basically a membership requirement to be carrying your own series at the same time?

U obviously didnt notice the 1st name I stated then huh? plus, I could also add the name Paul Kirk......

To show I can nitpick with the best of them . . . by the original Firebrand, do you mean Rod Reilly, the original Firebrand of the early 1940s? Or were you thinking of Firebrand #2, his cute sister Danette Reilly, invented by Roy Thomas for "All-Star Squadron" in the early 80s so he could retroactively insert some new (and feminine) blood into his tales of "Golden Age" WWII-era heroes?

well......wat else would possibly mean when I state "the original"??? ;)

And as far as that goes, I've heard rumors that Batwoman may never have existed in the first place in modern Bat-continuity, at least in the opinions of some of the writers and editors of the last several years. I'm not too clear on that. I do seem to recall that her niece Bat-Girl (even predated the Barbara Gordon Batgirl!) has been retconned into a minor wannabe superhero called "Flamebird" who never called herself Bat-Anything and was never involved in regular teamups with Batman and the first Robin way back when.

arguable, but thats all it can be until theres an official statement either which way.

either way, U asked for heroes who died and remained dead.....I gave ya some. but just to pad things, let me also add Johnny Quick to that list. ;)




Tazer

[Tynne]

Kathy Kane definitely still existed, and was "a friend of Batman" who participated in several cases with him in years past. And she was still murdered, but the identity of her killer was rendered an unsolved mystery.

Whether or not she ever called herself "Batwoman" and wore the costume is up in the air. It was never clarified yea or nay.

[Sean Dulaney]

Re: Barry Allen...still dead

I think the reason that Barry has managed to become the Uncle Ben/Bucky of the DCU is two fold.

1) His death was a sacrifice that was a major plot point within the Crisis story.
2) His death (and the circumstances of it) were common knowledge after the Crisis and reboot. (Same with Don (Dove) Hall)

While nobody remembers the Crisis as we read it, there was a Crisis (IIRC, they've aknowledged there were red skies and time was messed with and the Anti-Monitor was involved) where Barry and Don were killed and the JSA left for a time. Others were killed as well, but they were the ones that died and their pre-Crisis exsistance was still remembered. Supergirl? Wiped out to make Kal the last Kryptonian. Wonder Woman? Turned to dust to accomidate a full reboot. Huntress? Had to die as the Batman that survived can't have a daughter that age.

Deaths and reboots since then...let's face it. Hal's breakdown was pretty much out of the blue. You could argue that the character was as damaged as Barry was thanks to the "Never-ending Trial". He was a character from another time...too tied to the Hard Traveling Heroes" era. But it was too soon after the Death of Superman, too "out of thin air" and, in the end, seemed weak storyline wise. If the story is strong enough, the death will be accepted. This is why Hal Jordan and Ollie and the first Hourman have been able to come back. Yes they were replaced. Yes, the replacements were strong characters themselves. But the way the "originals" were taken out compared to how Barry was handled...it almost seemed (Except for Hourman) that they wanted an out in case the new versions tanked. Granted, Hal's destruction of the Corps and murder of Lanterns that stood in his way...might have been tough to rectify until now. But to have the book continue under the same numbering...often the same creative team...only to have a character that, if we're lucky, was introduced an issue earlier be the lead and there's no body from the original's death. Yeah...they'll be back.

[Alex Dragon]

Yo.

I think this was more a sign of the times that weaknesses of character; Wally didnt get interesting as a character (to me) until he stopped using Barrys old costume which was ish #50 IIRC.

Partly yes, it may have something to do with the times. From the Flash stories I read when Barry was Flash the most memorable thing about Barry was he was constantly late even though he was the fastest man on earth. Other than that? He was some sort of police scientist but one ever made that seem interesting. He had a wife from the future but that didn't him more interesting.
Wally on the other hand had more stuff for a writer to work with. They could play up the "Young man trying fill the legend's big shoes" thing. Wally always had girl problems, he's younger and more relatable to the audience, more impulisive (which makes for more mistakes thus more interesting stories), for a while he was considerably slower than Barry, long story short he has more relatable and human qualities, unlike the near pefect Barry.

Plus, Barry's Flash never had a series of a good run of stories that most people can agree on being "classic". With Green Arrow and Green Latern they keep reprinting those classic stories by O'Neil and Adams. That's reminder of how great those two could be and new creators could be inspired by those stories and have a fondness for those characters. Barry doesn't have that.



either way, the 2 men simply got written differently: Barry was more of the thinker-type while Wally really just winged it. to this day I still think Barry could prolly beat Wally even given Wally's greater access to the SF, but thats IMNSHO.
Tazer

Yeah, Barry more than likely could've beaten Wally but that doesn't make him a better character. In fact it makes him much less so because things were just too easy for Barry.

[Lorendiac]

Yo.

U obviously didnt notice the 1st name I stated then huh? plus, I could also add the name Paul Kirk......

Wonder Woman, you mean? Well, I tend to agree with Tynne's take on it. The (Earth-1, Silver Age) Wonder Woman wasn't really killed off by Crisis; anything that appeared to happen to her in it was simply an excuse to give her a Post-Crisis Reboot, wiping out her old continuity and starting all over with a new monthly series. By the same token, the (Earth-1, Silver Age) Superman got his continuity erased and then Rebooted From Scratch in the Post-Crisis era, but that doesn't mean I think of him as having Died and Stayed Dead as a result of the Crisis either.



well......wat else would possibly mean when I state "the original"??? ;)

Look, I've seen people argue online that a fantasy novelist who uses the pen name Robert Jordan is the author who created the famous character Conan the Barbarian from scratch, and wrote the "original" handful of stories about him that others have since imitated. (Which is only untrue by about fifty years!). There are probably still people today who have the vague impression that Johnny Storm of the Fantastic Four was the "original" Human Torch and any other mention they've seen of an android Human Torch must be a cheap knock-off of the Stan Lee/Jack Kirby creation from FF#1. (Or they may not have even heard about the android Torch, not that they remember, anyway.) So there's no telling what you might have meant, especially since I have the vague impression that both Rod and Danette are currently dead or Presumed Dead until further notice. :rolleyes:


either way, U asked for heroes who died and remained dead.....I gave ya some. but just to pad things, let me also add Johnny Quick to that list. ;)

I'm not sure I asked for that, in so many words . . . but I did suggest that Barry was a rare case of a high-profile superhero dating back at least to the Silver Age (around the 1960s) who has died and stayed dead. I've never thought of Zatara, the Red Bee, or Sargon the Sorcerer as being "high-profile." I admit I wasn't alive when they first appeared in the comics waaaaay back when, so maybe they were considered very popular and high-profile at the time and I just haven't picked up on it? ;)

I can't remember the last time I saw an impassioned thread on a DC-themed forum saying something like, "Bring back Zatara! Sign this petition! I miss him terribly!"

[Lorendiac]

Kathy Kane definitely still existed, and was "a friend of Batman" who participated in several cases with him in years past. And she was still murdered, but the identity of her killer was rendered an unsolved mystery.

Whether or not she ever called herself "Batwoman" and wore the costume is up in the air. It was never clarified yea or nay.

Interesting. I didn't know about the part in your first paragraph re: her death is still an unsolved mystery? I have a copy of the "Tales of the Demon" TPB that collects the key issues, at least, of O'Neil's work on the Batman/Ra's/Talia situation from the 1970s, including the storyline that commences with Kathy's murder. I would have guessed that either that entire sequence of events (including her murder by the League of Assassins) was still "in continuity", or that it had all been declared "out of continuity." I hadn't heard about this particular approach. I had heard rumors, however, that at least some of the writers and editors at DC seem to prefer to believe there never was a Batwoman after all, as you suggested in the second paragraph.

[BigKenW]

Here are some things that reach all posts:

1 - Barry isn't the token dead guy. He is the example of how to rightly send a beloved character to the grave.

2 - Barry never reallllllllllly dies in Crisis. He heads back in a loop as lightning. However, the Deadman series a year or two ago cemented him as dead. Along with Jason Todd.

3 - The Golden Age Wonder Woman was killed in the current continuity during Our Worlds at War, when Superman couldn't stop a massive meteor (I think) from burning her to death and crushing her.

4 - The ORIGINAL Blue Beetle is dead. Ted Kord is his replacement.

5 - Jason Todd is still dead (Thank goodness for Tim Drake). The older adult bad guy Jason is really just hallucinations created during Hush by Scarecrow.

6 - The Teen Titans / LEGION Crossover went out of its way to say that the last few years stories happened. However, they don't show the Legion being destroyed. It looks like whatever Superboy did wrong with that axe weapon really screwed up the timeline and caused the future to change. Hypertime? Who knows? Heck the Titans may not even be in the right Hypertime.

NOTE - I am still mad at DC for doing this, and I really don't know why they did. The Legion was great. One of my favorite monthly reads. I hope at some point Waid is able to speak to this. If it was anybody but Waid I might be really mad, but I loved his Flash and Kingdom Come. So we shall see.

[Buried Alien]

Barry Allen will probably never come back and shouldn't because Wally is a far more interesting character. Being killed in "CRISIS" was probably the most interesting thing to happen to Barry.
Take away the nostalgia fact and there's little that him exciting or interesting. I personally found everything about the Barry Allen character extremely bland, particularly when he was out of costume. Wally is much more interesting and complex both in and out of costume.

But then again, I feel the same way about Hal Jordan.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I think you're severely underrating Barry Allen as a character. His thirty-year run on THE FLASH was more than just an extended warm-up act for Wally.

While I'm not carrying signs outside of DC's offices demanding Barry's return, I do wish people both within DC and among fandom will remember that Barry Allen was much, much more than just the Flash who died. As it is, everything from THE DC ENCYCLOPEDIA to those endless SECRET FILES & ORIGINS specials over the past decade seem to be painting Barry as the guy who got superspeed and was a placeholder Flash for a while until Wally became the "real" (i.e. current) Flash. Heroic CRISIS death aside, this isn't doing Barry's legacy any real favor.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Siddon]

Sometimes the simplest explanation is often the easiest. Everyone here is focused on who died in comics, however each and every one of you forgot the 3 major deaths that basically established D.C. comics. These deaths have never been retconned and has been the major catalyst for the two greatest heros of all time.

Superman - Kypton

Batman- his parents

So to answer your question, No Barry Allen was not the "token" dead guy he was just one in a nice long list.

[J.R.E.]

Interesting. I didn't know about the part in your first paragraph re: her death is still an unsolved mystery? I have a copy of the "Tales of the Demon" TPB that collects the key issues, at least, of O'Neil's work on the Batman/Ra's/Talia situation from the 1970s, including the storyline that commences with Kathy's murder. I would have guessed that either that entire sequence of events (including her murder by the League of Assassins) was still "in continuity", or that it had all been declared "out of continuity." I hadn't heard about this particular approach. I had heard rumors, however, that at least some of the writers and editors at DC seem to prefer to believe there never was a Batwoman after all, as you suggested in the second paragraph.


Suicide Squad (The first series) established that the post-Crisis Kathy was still an old ally of Batman, but avoided any mention of whether or not she had operated as Batwoman or just as a "civilian".

She was still murdered by the League of Assasins, but it was revealed that it wasn't the Bronze Tiger who killed her.

There was an interesting scene in which The Kingdom-Planet Krypton in which Batman encountered a Hypertime "ghost" of the Silver Age Batwoman and had a moment of shocked recognition of her as "Kathy?!?"...but the moment passed.

[Shellhead]

Barry Allen will probably never come back and shouldn't because Wally is a far more interesting character. Being killed in "CRISIS" was probably the most interesting thing to happen to Barry.
Take away the nostalgia fact and there's little that him exciting or interesting. I personally found everything about the Barry Allen character extremely bland, particularly when he was out of costume. Wally is much more interesting and complex both in and out of costume.

But then again, I feel the same way about Hal Jordan.

I feel the same way about most DC Silver Age characters... but that's just the way things were done back then. Heroes had bland, generic goodguy personalities in the DCU. Cover art was misleading. Stories were sometimes very gimmicky. Most plots were resolved in the space of one issue... or less.

But that doesn't mean that Barry Allen was a bland character concept. Look at how popular CSI is now, and how popular the Hannibal Lector movies have been, and then think how cool Barry Allen could have been written, given that he was a scientist who worked for the police. But that angle was mostly overlooked, in favor of bland, stereotypical Silver Age action.

And then same argument could be raised on behalf of Hal Jordan. As a bold, confident test pilot, Hal should have been a cocky thrillseeker with nerves of steel and amazing willpower. Tom Wolfe wrote best-selling "The Right Stuff" a long time ago, surely some Green Lantern writer could have gotten some great ideas from that book. Instead, we got Hal Jordan, bland suburbanite and drunk driver.

[BigKenW]

And then same argument could be raised on behalf of Hal Jordan. As a bold, confident test pilot, Hal should have been a cocky thrillseeker with nerves of steel and amazing willpower. Tom Wolfe wrote best-selling "The Right Stuff" a long time ago, surely some Green Lantern writer could have gotten some great ideas from that book. Instead, we got Hal Jordan, bland suburbanite and drunk driver.

I have to disagree about Hal being the bland suburbanite drunk driver. This was his retcon in Emerald Dawn. Not how he has been since he was first created. And to be honest, even after Emerald Dawn, Hal still had a lot of "Right Stuff" moments.

I just hope that Hal's return doesn't lend itself to Kyle Rayner fading away.

[Alex Dragon]

You're entitled to your opinion, but I think you're severely underrating Barry Allen as a character. His thirty-year run on THE FLASH was more than just an extended warm-up act for Wally.

While I'm not carrying signs outside of DC's offices demanding Barry's return, I do wish people both within DC and among fandom will remember that Barry Allen was much, much more than just the Flash who died. As it is, everything from THE DC ENCYCLOPEDIA to those endless SECRET FILES & ORIGINS specials over the past decade seem to be painting Barry as the guy who got superspeed and was a placeholder Flash for a while until Wally became the "real" (i.e. current) Flash. Heroic CRISIS death aside, this isn't doing Barry's legacy any real favor.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Well, of course it my opinion but from what I can tell it's the opinion shared by many others as you also point out.

Barry, had been around for a long time and had many people handle him yet
from what I can tell few if any managed to do anything truly interesting or exciting with the character. I don't remember Barry being much more than a gimmick. Not even a particularly interesting gimmick.

As I pointed out before, Barry doesn't have a strong body of memorable stories that can be put in a trade, or hardcover that says to fans of both yesteryear and today "Look how cool or good this charcter was/is!". Even when Mark Waid who at the time many considered a great Flash writer couldn't seem to make Barry interesting when he brought the character back during his run on the book. People like seeing Barry mostly for nostalgia reasons from what I can tell.

Is/was it possible to make the character more exciting and interesting? Probably. I think it would take an almost revamping of the character though (Like they did with Hal Jordan) There's not much to work with. But why do all that when you've got a more interesting character with the same powers (Wally) already around?

[pennywisdom]

In comic books, there is no such thing as a "permanent death". Gwen Stacy was a permanent death.... look at what happened there.

They could and would bring back Barry tomorrow if enough fans wanted it. But since fans seem to be happy with Wally, he stays as long as people want him to stay. Any character's status depends solely on the preference of the comic-buying public.

[founder81]

This got me thinking. How many DCU hero's have "classic" stories that are still reprinted today. (I'm thinking pre-Crisis here)

Batman
GL/GA

But then I thought, wait. Both are classics, but both are by Neal Adams and Denny O'Neil.

I can't think of any "classic" stories for Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, JLA, or Aquaman that are still in print today.

I know the archive collections exists, but they aren't there for the purpose of "classic" sotires, but to keep old and expensive stuff in print.

I can't think of any classic story from the Main books I just listed.

[Lorendiac]

In comic books, there is no such thing as a "permanent death". Gwen Stacy was a permanent death.... look at what happened there.


Not sure what you mean. As far as I know, she's still dead, over 30 years later. Sure there have been clones and Long-Lost Children and stuff, but that's not the same thing as resurrecting the Dead Original, is it?

[pennywisdom]

Sure there have been clones and Long-Lost Children and stuff
That's pretty much what I'm talking about. If they're not actually resurrecting the body, they can retcon whomever and whatever they feel like. The point is, if they want Barry to come back, he'll come back. If not, he won't. This "permanent death" stuff is crazy because we all know nothing's permanent.

[Michael P]

Since no one's mentioned it, I'll point out that Marv Wolfman actually wrote an out into Crisis that would allow them to bring Barry back if the reboot failed. Ask him really nicely at a convention and he might tell you.

[BigKenW]

Since no one's mentioned it, I'll point out that Marv Wolfman actually wrote an out into Crisis that would allow them to bring Barry back if the reboot failed. Ask him really nicely at a convention and he might tell you.

I have heard this a million times. I have read crisis like 5 times. Does anyone actually know what this out is?

[sikkbones]

Here are some things that reach all posts:


2 - Barry never reallllllllllly dies in Crisis. He heads back in a loop as lightning. However, the Deadman series a year or two ago cemented him as dead. Along with Jason Todd.



.

that particular issue is out of contuinty isn't it... as well as COIE supergirls appaerance in an xmas special? bwahahahaha

[Mainline]

I have heard this a million times. I have read crisis like 5 times. Does anyone actually know what this out is?

It's on his website under the FAQ section... it's about a third of a page down and not all that compelling.

[sikkbones]

From: Nearly Everyone

I read in the Crisis On Infinite Earths collection that you didn't want to kill Barry (The Flash) Allen and put in a loophole on how to bring him back. Care to share that with us?

So many people actually saw that comment I made in my forward and have asked me how I'd bring back the Flash, that I've finally gotten tired of explaining it. So that I don't ever have to explain it again, here it is now, once and for all. Please remember, this is a very comic booky answer and you can probably blow holes in it somehow (but then nobody really complained how an anti-matter villain could co-exist with a positive matter good guy, so maybe physics isn't anyone's strong suit). This is what I proposed to DC back in 1985. Please note that I didn't think it was a good idea to kill The Flash but those were my marching orders, so I did the best I could to make his death as moving as I could. Here is the given I worked from: Much of the reason the people in charge didn't care for Barry Allen was that he was considered dull. I felt if I could come up with a way of making him vital again while keeping him alive, then perhaps Barry would be given a second lease on life. I came up with the idea of Flash moving back through time, flashing into our dimension even as he was dying. So, thought I, what if Barry was plucked out of the time stream at one of those moments he appeared? What if that meant from this point on Barry knew that he was literally living on borrowed time, that at any moment the time stream could close in on him and take him to his inevitable death. What would this mean to Barry? 1: from now on the fastest man alive would literally be running for his life. 2: He knew he didn't have much time left and believed (as Barry would) that he had to devote it to helping others. 3: This meant Barry would become driven and desperate to help others with each passing tick of the clock. I felt this new revitalized attitude might be enough to make the formerly dull police scientist into someone who now had to push himself as he never had to before. I was hoping that this would make the character interesting enough to live. Earlier, I said my explanation was comic booky. In many ways it is because none of us knows when we are going to die. But this knowledge would haunt a man like Barry Allen and change him from an unassuming character into a driven hero. At least that was the plan!



edit: john henry irons seems pretty dead.. seeing how DC didn't want a black male superman represantative.

[Mainline]

You're entitled to your opinion, but I think you're severely underrating Barry Allen as a character. His thirty-year run on THE FLASH was more than just an extended warm-up act for Wally.

While I'm not carrying signs outside of DC's offices demanding Barry's return, I do wish people both within DC and among fandom will remember that Barry Allen was much, much more than just the Flash who died. As it is, everything from THE DC ENCYCLOPEDIA to those endless SECRET FILES & ORIGINS specials over the past decade seem to be painting Barry as the guy who got superspeed and was a placeholder Flash for a while until Wally became the "real" (i.e. current) Flash. Heroic CRISIS death aside, this isn't doing Barry's legacy any real favor.

The problem is that the end of his life/career was literally the end of continunity. All of his feats, exploits, stories, and so on... who knows what sticks and what didn't? Only Wally's writers- who pick and choose what they want to use from Barry's history to define Wally. As fans (or encyclopedia writers), we can't say what's in continuity until it's retroactively decided... particularly, looking at some of Barry's earlier feats/adventures can't be accepted as continunity with a straight face (losing 500 lbs in a steam room? Running so fast as to go into space, loop around the moon, and return without harm? etc). Even his character is a pick and choose affair... early Barry was actually pretty arrogant, jealous, and petty man (how many stories revolved around acquiring the "Man of The Year" award? Or beating someone because of his pride?) who's now a Saint (imperfect, in secret- as per The Top).

The bottom line is, because of the way continunity operates, who can really say who Barry Allen was or what he did?

[sikkbones]

The problem is that the end of his life/career was literally the end of continunity. All of his feats, exploits, stories, and so on... who knows what sticks and what didn't? Only Wally's writers- who pick and choose what they want to use from Barry's history to define Wally. As fans (or encyclopedia writers), we can't say what's in continuity until it's retroactively decided... particularly, looking at some of Barry's earlier feats/adventures can't be accepted as continunity with a straight face (losing 500 lbs in a steam room? Running so fast as to go into space, loop around the moon, and return without harm? etc). Even his character is a pick and choose affair... early Barry was actually pretty arrogant, jealous, and petty man (how many stories revolved around acquiring the "Man of The Year" award? Or beating someone because of his pride?) who's now a Saint (imperfect, in secret- as per The Top).

The bottom line is, because of the way continunity operates, who can really say who Barry Allen was or what he did?


would anyone buy a Barry Allen:Year One series?

[Nate Grey]

Yeah, Barry is the token permanent death for DC. Just like Bucky is the token permanent death for Marvel. And as such, they should have an ongoing together where they fight crime.

[Lorendiac]

Yeah, Barry is the token permanent death for DC. Just like Bucky is the token permanent death for Marvel. And as such, they should have an ongoing together where they fight crime.

It's a strange experience for me, seeing a thread I started last year suddenly start making a comeback several months later. And you've triggered a new train of thought. We already saw Barry Allen basically come back from the dead in the Marvel Universe (an early issue of Quasar). His memory was all a blur after what he'd been through, but he was a blond male Caucasian in red shorts who thought his own name might be "Buried Alien" or something like that. Has Bucky come back from the dead in a DC issue yet? If so, we could argue that they have basically switched universes even-steven . . . then, the next time DC and Marvel have a big crossover between their two universes, Bucky and Barry could switch right back to their respective native universes! ;)

[sikkbones]

It's a strange experience for me, seeing a thread I started last year suddenly start making a comeback several months later. And you've triggered a new train of thought. We already saw Barry Allen basically come back from the dead in the Marvel Universe (an early issue of Quasar). His memory was all a blur after what he'd been through, but he was a blond male Caucasian in red shorts who thought his own name might be "Buried Alien" or something like that. Has Bucky come back from the dead in a DC issue yet? If so, we could argue that they have basically switched universes even-steven . . . then, the next time DC and Marvel have a big crossover between their two universes, Bucky and Barry could switch right back to their respective native universes! ;)
jason todd isn't jason todd at all.. he's secretly bucky in disguise..

[Lorendiac]

jason todd isn't jason todd at all.. he's secretly bucky in disguise..

I just slapped my head in real life. Of course! Now it all makes sense! Why didn't I think of that?

[sikkbones]

I just slapped my head in real life. Of course! Now it all makes sense! Why didn't I think of that?


it explains why he looks so old...

[destro]

Maybe Barry was kind of dull, but I think Shellhead had a good point about doing a CSI type of thing with him, if he was still around today.

I like Barry, and I also like Wally West, but I really don't see how Wally is that much more interesting of a character than Barry was.

Wally West had a distinctive personality during the Messner Loebs run of Flash near the beginning of the title. OK, it wasn't really a very likable personality, but he was selfish, a womanizer, he had the whole "not living up to Barry" thing, he kept losing and regaining his powers, he had a good supporting cast (aside from Chunk, who I always loathed) and he kept going back and forth between being rich and poor. He also had a really complex relationship with his mom, who was such a shrew but very entertaining.

I know most people consider Waid's run to be the best, and it was very good as far as superhero action goes, and souping Wally's speed back up, but he basically dumped all of Wally's character and supporting cast and made him basically a blank slate all over again.

Today, Wally's personality basically consists of him loving Linda Park A LOT. That's it. There really isn't much there anymore imo.

[sikkbones]

if dc was smart they would have wally in the leugue for a year and do a FLASH:Year one

sotroy to establish barry and his history post crisis... including retconning the way he met jay garrick.... or has that been done already?

[Buried Alien]

if dc was smart they would have wally in the leugue for a year and do a FLASH:Year one

sotroy to establish barry and his history post crisis... including retconning the way he met jay garrick.... or has that been done already?

It's been done. Barry Allen's Post-CRISIS Flash career (which by and large was identical to his Pre-CRISIS one) was covered in 1997's LIFE STORY OF THE FLASH graphic novel.


Buried Alien (The Most Evil Post Alive!)

[sikkbones]

It's been done. Barry Allen's Post-CRISIS Flash career (which by and large was identical to his Pre-CRISIS one) was covered in 1997's LIFE STORY OF THE FLASH graphic novel.


Buried Alien (The Most Evil Post Alive!)

did it cover his death?
and a year one could do the CSI thing ...

[Buried Alien]

did it cover his death?

Yes, briefly, as well as his legacy.


Buried Alien (The Most Evil Post Alive!)

[hitokiri_]

i think i read this thread in dccomics.com

[Mainline]

It's been done. Barry Allen's Post-CRISIS Flash career (which by and large was identical to his Pre-CRISIS one) was covered in 1997's LIFE STORY OF THE FLASH graphic novel.

It's a bit generous to call it a graphic novel, no? It's primarily text... from the future. As relevant to continuity as Kingdom Come or say a novel about Crisis. We're already seeing retcons. I don't think it would hurt to do a Barry Allen Year One except, as I've said, right now Barry's history is used purely to define others... so they might not feel like pinning it down, considering how much other Year One stories get retconned.

In reality, no slight to Barry, Flash side story books- be they elseworlds or what not (like Ross' recent oversized run... heck even Captain Marvel got a book, but Barry/Flash and Hal/GL didn't)- don't sell that well, which is why there are so few. On top of that, we'd be asking them to year one a non-active hero... so while I'd love to see one done, I consider it highly unlikely.

[Master Darque]

Wally West had a distinctive personality during the Messner Loebs run of Flash near the beginning of the title. OK, it wasn't really a very likable personality, but he was selfish, a womanizer, he had the whole "not living up to Barry" thing, he kept losing and regaining his powers, he had a good supporting cast (aside from Chunk, who I always loathed) and he kept going back and forth between being rich and poor. He also had a really complex relationship with his mom, who was such a shrew but very entertaining.
I'm with you . Don't forget Baron's run before Loebs , tho .... since he basically set up the arrogant West , the womanizer West ....AND the rich West ..come to think of it , lol ! But Loebs definitely made the character likable after Baron's set-up .

I always liked Barry .... was actually quite shoked to see DC kill him off . Of course , maybe if they'd given him over to someone else who could do something with the character ...... who wrote him most of the time , was it Cary Bates ? I was never really a Carmine Infantino fan so didn't dig the art so much . I always liked Dick Dillin ...or maybe it was Irv Novick .....

It's a shame that nowadays you can get better writers and artists to make great stories like JLA Year One and a Brave and the Bold mini( Waid and Kitson ) who give us great stories about 2 characters who are/were dead .

[Stephane Garrelie]

I preffer Barry Allen and I want him back. :) :cool:

[lead sharp]

I was looking for a thread like this.

For me it's not so much about the characters as the poor sods that have been writing them.

Green Arrow should have stayed dead. Why? Because it forced people (writers and artists) to keep ideas fresh (ie with a new GA) and it keeps the idea that, 'Hey these guys CAN die.' For me the whole retconing thing is getting tired, even Batmans return to his original costume was done purely because it tied in with the cartoon.

Hal's return frankly is awful. I thought the journey the character took from getting the ring to his time as the Spectre (truely an inspired way to bring him back) was one worth following and one of the most powerful character 'journeys' I've ever seen in comics.

I also completely enjoyed Kyle as GL because he took the role and made it his own (well that's the way he was written anyway) and his journey was coming along great so what do DC do?

Panic when sales are slumping and bring back Hal after a failed revamp of Kyle.

Sick of DC, at least Joe Quasada had some balls when it came to retconing and revamping.

[sikkbones]

I was looking for a thread like this.

For me it's not so much about the characters as the poor sods that have been writing them.

Green Arrow should have stayed dead. Why? Because it forced people (writers and artists) to keep ideas fresh (ie with a new GA) and it keeps the idea that, 'Hey these guys CAN die.' For me the whole retconing thing is getting tired, even Batmans return to his original costume was done purely because it tied in with the cartoon.

Hal's return frankly is awful. I thought the journey the character took from getting the ring to his time as the Spectre (truely an inspired way to bring him back) was one worth following and one of the most powerful character 'journeys' I've ever seen in comics.

I also completely enjoyed Kyle as GL because he took the role and made it his own (well that's the way he was written anyway) and his journey was coming along great so what do DC do?

Panic when sales are slumping and bring back Hal after a failed revamp of Kyle.

Sick of DC, at least Joe Quasada had some balls when it came to retconing and revamping.


i have a feeling that within 2 years we are going to see kyle as DC's token homosexual character.. just as john stewart was the Token black for many years...

and i'm somewhat expecting powergirl to come out as the token lesbian if she doesnt die in the crisis.

[BigKenW]

i have a feeling that within 2 years we are going to see kyle as DC's token homosexual character.. just as john stewart was the Token black for many years...

and i'm somewhat expecting powergirl to come out as the token lesbian if she doesnt die in the crisis.

Are you joking? Why in the world would they make Kyle gay. I mean, if anyone was going to do it, it was going to be Judd Winick. It never happened. And he had Kyle forever.

Powergirl as a lesbian? Maybe.

Has anyone else noticed how the JLU John Stewart is cool, and the DCU John Stewart sucks? (at least up until Rebirth)

[sikkbones]

Are you joking? Why in the world would they make Kyle gay. I mean, if anyone was going to do it, it was going to be Judd Winick. It never happened. And he had Kyle forever.

Powergirl as a lesbian? Maybe.

Has anyone else noticed how the JLU John Stewart is cool, and the DCU John Stewart sucks? (at least up until Rebirth)
my thought was with the terry arc that kyle was going to come out of the closet...

[datsyuk]

I'm not sure super heros will truly die permanently. Wont they eventually find a way to bring them back?

[sikkbones]

I'm not sure super heros will truly die permanently. Wont they eventually find a way to bring them back?
ask bucky.

[founder81]

i have a feeling that within 2 years we are going to see kyle as DC's token homosexual character.. just as john stewart was the Token black for many years...

and i'm somewhat expecting powergirl to come out as the token lesbian if she doesnt die in the crisis.

The Green Lantern Corp of Tokens

John Stewart - token black
Kyle - token gay
Guy - token ass
Hal - token white guy
Arisa - token female
etc...etc...etc...

[west3man]

The Green Lantern Corp of Tokens

John Stewart - token black
Kyle - token gay
Guy - token ass
Hal - token white guy
Arisa - token female
etc...etc...etc...
err... Hal was the "token white guy?"

[amphetamine]

err... Hal was the "token white guy?"


No kidding... Guy and Kyle don't count as white? Huh? That's like saying Kilowog is the token alien.

[founder81]

err... Hal was the "token white guy?"

I had a token thing going. Couldn't interrupt my run with things like, you know: Logic.

[sikkbones]

The Green Lantern Corp of Tokens

John Stewart - token black
Kyle - token gay
Guy - token ass
Hal - token white guy
Arisa - token female
etc...etc...etc...
kilowog... token pink guy.
green arrow.. token guy without powers.

[BigKenW]

kilowog... token pink guy.
green arrow.. token guy without powers.

Actually, if you wanna get technical. Kyle was the token hispanic guy.

[knight16]

There have been a lot of teaser story arcs regarding Barry's return. Theoretically since he is in the future with Iris he still has time to come back before "Crisis" ( Hmm , this sounds familiar)

Just imagine barry running side by side with bart.a lot of possibilities.

More and more since hal's return, wally has become the last bastion of the 80's legacy heroes, the only sidekick to join his seniors in the Justice League. last man standing. If barry replaces him then the satellite era League is complete.

Also with all the retconning going on i think the Tornado Twins can make a comeback as well.There should be stories of their exploits.

[CBR_trader]

Barry Allen, of course, was killed off in "Crisis on Infinite Earths" in 1985.

No, he wasn't killed off. check out http://www.hyperborea.org/flash/
There is a good write-up of all the appearances since Crisis... of a Barry Allen
or Barry Allen-type character.


He was soon replaced by Wally West, his former sidekick as "Kid Flash."
Barry wasn't replaced by anyone. For someone to be replaced by someone else, they would have to have been removed from the entire continuum's memory. Barry Allen is still in hte memory of any DC character that existed in a Barry Allen time-slice... and Barry is still mentioned in the Speedster Museum or Flash Museum in Central City.

Barry Allen was the ONLY Flash to be in a live-action Hero sequence on TV, and the ONLY Flash to be in a TV series.

Wally had the flaw that he always doubts his abilities... that he'll ever live up to Barry. For that reason, I never liked the Kid Flash/Flash v3. At least Barry never dwelled on his fears of inadequacy (s.i.c.) Barry just dove into everything with a "can do" attitude.

Wally is always scared that he's going to fail.
Barry knew that he was the only one who could attempt it... whether he succeeded or not, he was going to give it his best.

As a REAL person, if you walk into a task expressing major doubts, you're going to be happier when you fail because you didn't believe it was possible to begin with.

That's Wally's out. Barry never gave himself an out. Therefore, Barry is and will always be a BETTER Flash than Wally.

End of my tyrate. Sorry to bother you all, but it had to be said.

[sikkbones]

bart allen (impulse) was on smallville.

[Mainline]

No, he wasn't killed off. check out http://www.hyperborea.org/flash/
There is a good write-up of all the appearances since Crisis...

Like his appearances in Deadman and Green Arrow?


Barry wasn't replaced by anyone. For someone to be replaced by someone else, they would have to have been removed from the entire continuum's memory. Barry Allen is still in hte memory of any DC character that existed in a Barry Allen time-slice... and Barry is still mentioned in the Speedster Museum or Flash Museum in Central City.

Actually he isn't in the Museum. As a result of Blitz, Barry's memory was erased from all the world to protect Wally's secret. Wally risked his identity- all over again- to the superhero community so that they could remember (what hazy pre-crisis memories they had) Barry.

Barry Allen was the ONLY Flash to be in a live-action Hero sequence on TV, and the ONLY Flash to be in a TV series.

Bart (adapted Impulse) was on Smallville. JLA ('97 TV) Barry was a jobless bum... not really something you want on your resume, meanwhile CBS Barry was- for all intents and purposes- Wally in character.

Wally had the flaw that he always doubts his abilities... that he'll ever live up to Barry. For that reason, I never liked the Kid Flash/Flash v3. At least Barry never dwelled on his fears of inadequacy (s.i.c.) Barry just dove into everything with a "can do" attitude.

Well, primarily because actually HAVING a character is interesting, CBS Barry ripped off all of Wally's issues and struggled with a disapproving father and a dead brother he could never live up to as a lab rat.

If you remember your early Barry issues, actually he suffered from a lot of doubt, pettiness, and jealousy. Any early encounter/race with Superman highlights it hilariously as he kept accusing Superman of wanting to show him up even though lives were saved. How many times did he assume Iris was cheating on him? Or chase after "The Man Of The Year" award?

Ironically, the honorable Barry in continunity is more or less a creation by Wally's writers for Wally's sake. Sainthood for the dead and all that.

Wally is always scared that he's going to fail.
Barry knew that he was the only one who could attempt it... whether he succeeded or not, he was going to give it his best.

You're free to irrationally judge him so, but as of now, Wally's been on more adventures than Barry ever did, so whether he fears or not, his true mark of courage is that he still goes out there. Incredibly, Barry is the ONLY Flash to retire in his prime, to say to the world, "I've done enough, I'll do no more." even Jay didn't do that until he was a senior and came out of it quickly. And, unlike Barry who had full control of his pre-crisis powers from day one, Wally still tried when he was weak and powered down... the true mark of heroism.

As a REAL person, if you walk into a task expressing major doubts, you're going to be happier when you fail because you didn't believe it was possible to begin with.

That's Wally's out. Barry never gave himself an out. Therefore, Barry is and will always be a BETTER Flash than Wally.

And this is why people love Wally, because despite his PAST weaknesses, he GREW past them. He developed as a person. Just like "real life"... which makes him an actually character and profoundly more interesting than someone who's "personality" remained unchanged for 250+ issues. To see how he develops is actually interesting... unlike someone else we know.

End of my tyrate. Sorry to bother you all, but it had to be said.

Pleasure to read your tirade, it's fun to smack down the silly arguments now and then.

What's really funny is that your post pretty much had nothing to do with the thread. Just a random Wally attack. Bitterness must suck. :p

[DMike]

Wally is always scared that he's going to fail.
Barry knew that he was the only one who could attempt it... whether he succeeded or not, he was going to give it his best.

As a REAL person, if you walk into a task expressing major doubts, you're going to be happier when you fail because you didn't believe it was possible to begin with.

I'm guessing you never heard the phrase "courage is overcoming fears and doubts, not the absence of them."

Besides, Wally got a lot more confident once he managed to "get out of Barry's shadow" (or more accurately, "realize he was never really in Barry's shadow in the first place").

[Buried Alien]

Incredibly, Barry is the ONLY Flash to retire in his prime, to say to the world, "I've done enough, I'll do no more." even Jay didn't do that until he was a senior and came out of it quickly.

This isn't entirely accurate. Barry did indeed take some time off after the ordeal of losing Iris and then enduring a tortuous murder trial, but he didn't wash his hands of his responsibilities. During that one month that Barry lived between the end of his trial and the Crisis, he fought alongside Wally in the 30th Century and returned to the 21st Century to help Wally deal with the loss of his (Wally's) unborn child. When the Crisis struck, Barry left Iris' side to do what he could to save lives and inform his fellow superheroes of the impending catastrophe. Then, of course, came the ultimate sacrifice.

And Jay Garrick was not prohibitively old when he went on hiatus as a superhero (although his decision was admittedly more forced upon him by a paranoid government than something he sought); he and the other JSAers went on hiatus just a few years after the end of World War II.



Buried Alien (The Most Evil Post Alive!)

[BigKenW]

I'm guessing you never heard the phrase "courage is overcoming fears and doubts, not the absence of them."

Can you please provide a reference for that quotation? Thank you!!!

[DMike]

The more exact quote:

"The brave man is not he who feels no fear,
For that were stupid and irrational;
But he, whose noble soul its fears subdues,
And bravely dares the danger nature shrinks from."

JOANNA BAILLIE

[Mainline]

This isn't entirely accurate. Barry did indeed take some time off after the ordeal of losing Iris and then enduring a tortuous murder trial, but he didn't wash his hands of his responsibilities. During that one month that Barry lived between the end of his trial and the Crisis, he fought alongside Wally in the 30th Century and returned to the 21st Century to help Wally deal with the loss of his (Wally's) unborn child. When the Crisis struck, Barry left Iris' side to do what he could to save lives and inform his fellow superheroes of the impending catastrophe. Then, of course, came the ultimate sacrifice.[/COLOR]

You're right, I've worded it wrong, I should've said something more like, "Don't call me, I'll call you." The point is that he wanted to relax... to not deal with street level thugs or Mirror Master or Captain Boomerang for the 20th time. For things he deemed worthy, he'd give up that perference, but not for the day to day heroic tasks... or even JLA-level world-endangering threats. He picked and choosed when to temporarily suspend his rest. Which, by no means, meant he didn't deserve it or that his sacrifice meant any less... but it's not like it was a "retirement in name only" since he would return to it after every adventure (save for eternal Rest In Peace).

[Mainline]

Can you please provide a reference for that quotation? Thank you!!!

I like this rendition:

"Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."
-- Ambrose Redmoon

[destro]

Mainline, I can't believe you are claiming that Wally's personality hasn't ever changed. He started as a pretty generic hero/sidekick. Then post crisis he was a greedy, womanizing b-stard. Now he basically has no personality, other than being hot headed and loving Linda. I'd call those pretty huge personality swings.

I like Wally a lot, but those of you who claim that Barry had no personality, or less than Wally are just ill informed.

[Mainline]

Mainline, I can't believe you are claiming that Wally's personality hasn't ever changed. He started as a pretty generic hero/sidekick. Then post crisis he was a greedy, womanizing b-stard. Now he basically has no personality, other than being hot headed and loving Linda. I'd call those pretty huge personality swings.

Reread the exact quote:

And this is why people love Wally, because despite his PAST weaknesses, he GREW past them. He developed as a person. Just like "real life"... which makes him an actually character and profoundly more interesting than someone who's "personality" remained unchanged for 250+ issues. To see how he develops is actually interesting... unlike someone else we know.

Red refers to Wally. Blue to Barry. Wally's changed- during his run- from hedonist (womanizing adulterer- something that his upbringing and and Barry mentorship would have never allowed, except in light of...), self-loathing sinner trying to escape Barry's shadow (ah, now the first stage makes sense), to lovesick hero becoming realized, finally to fully matured hero and conscience of the League. His character comes out when he talks to other heroes or you see what he thinks about them. I could go on and on about that, but I won't... bottom line is that he has differing opinions and attitudes, versus Barry who often towed the party line (granted, in those days there was much less internal team conflict because the storylines were pure adventure not soaps).

I like Wally a lot, but those of you who claim that Barry had no personality, or less than Wally are just ill informed.

It's not that he has NO personality, it's that he had a thin one that never really developed or went anywhere. He had universal reactions to universal stresses and a few personality quirks, but they never really played up anything that made him an individual. Heck, even Marv Wolfman- a man that arguably loves Barry more than any other- knew Barry's flaw was boring personality (which is why his attempted "out" was supposed to give Barry a passion for life). If they had played up the comic-book geek lab rat angle more, I'm sure Barry would've been more lovable, but he always felt like an appendage to Flash so that the last few panels of any given story could be Barry being late to a date with Iris.

[destro]

OK, thanks for clarifying that. Now I have a better idea of where you're coming from.

My problem with Wally, is that it seems to be that he changed almost instantly once Waid came on. You could say the same I suppose about the beginning of the Flash run, where Wally instantly became an a-hole. The changes have always seemed very uneven to me.

I still think that Wally has less or equal to personality now than Barry did. At Wallys height of character development, I think he had MUCH more character than Barry. To me, this was during the Messner Loebs run.

Now, as I've said, I think that his personality basically consists of loving Linda. And being hot headed. I would love to see this change. We are seeing all of this great development with the rogues in Flash right now, but we aren't getting anywhere with Wally.

Anyway Mainline, I enjoyed reading your response. Always nice to discuss with with a fellow Flash Fan.

[sikkbones]

i agree.... bart allen/kid flash/flash 2099/impulse/whatever he calls himself these days has more persoailty than wally...

[Mainline]

This is how I measure personality or character, to any ethical or moral question, to any question of preference, to any question of belief, and so on... how clearly can you give an answer with consensus and/or organically arrive at an answer?

This proves to me that Wally, as he currently is now, probably has a deeper and more well established character than Barry or Bart. Barry, because there was a schizm between his pre-Crisis personality and how he's portrayed now and in continunity... almost like asking "What would Superman do?" without specifying Pre-Crisis or Post. For Bart it's a little better because he's grown up more organically, however there's still pretty signifcant differences between his book, Young Justice, and Kid Flash incarnations awkward jumps in personality... a little uneven and hard to pin down (granted, giving writers more freedom to do whatever the heck they want to with him, but makes his character less defined).

Wally, meanwhile, has had the luck of having writers who always built up on the earlier writer's work with few inconsistancies. Together they've woven a deep character that isn't based on blaring stereotypes or obvious quirks.

You can say he's just a guy that gets angry and loves Linda, but I could tell you a whole lot more. I can tell you WHY he gets angry and WHAT he gets angry at (unlike some characters that seem to get arbitrarily angry). I can tell you his politics, his stance on many issues, his opinion about many other heroes. I can tell you his fears, his likes and dislikes, his insecurities, and his hopes. I know who his close friends are and why, I know why he hasn't been as much of a mentor to Bart, or why he gave Jesse a hard time. I know why he loves Iris and Barry, but struggles with his own living parents. So on and so forth.

The reason Wally's a much more compelling character, to me, is that all these personality traits were slowly woven into a straight up action book... it's not like The Flash was a soap opera book where people gushed forth their pains and psychological motivations all the time. And over time, it built up a fairly deep character. You can honestly say what Wally would probably do in a situation or follow his thought process. This is different than Bart, who was- for a long time- by definition, impulsive... and actually quite a cartoon character in his book and YJ; or Barry, who "always did the right thing" + a few quirks.

[sikkbones]

does the flash (wally) remeber the actual crisis?

[Mainline]

does the flash (wally) remeber the actual crisis?

He remembers his end of it and was able to travel back in time to the point when the DCU heroes took on the Anti-Monitor... as for Pre-Crisis events, things in his own continunity are pretty clear except for some of that typical PC fuzziness. I can't remember the exact issue or annual here, but there's a story where Wally tells Impulse a pre-Crisis story while he was Kid Flash and everything was Silver-Aged in tech and mannerisms, Impulse even remarks, "No one ever talked like that!" But that's the kind of thing all the people who survived Crisis have to reconcile. But, for all intents and purposes, Pre-Crisis Wally didn't exist anymore than PC Supes or campy PC Bats did. Only their revisionist memories that come Post Crisis are valid in-continunity examples of their past characters.

This isn't too much of a conflict for Supes, Bats, Flash, etc. because the bulk of what we've come to know them as or accept them as has come after Crisis. In contrast to someone like Barry where the bulk of his character was developed Pre-Crisis, with only a few hints, memories, etc. Post-Crisis of who he was.

[Lorendiac]

I get the feeling that these nitpicks may have been meant to be "tongue in cheek" rather than serious, but I'll do my best to answer them "seriously" anyway.
Barry Allen, of course, was killed off in "Crisis on Infinite Earths" in 1985.
No, he wasn't killed off. check out http://www.hyperborea.org/flash/
There is a good write-up of all the appearances since Crisis... of a Barry Allen
or Barry Allen-type character.
I checked it out. I still don't see anything that contradicts my assertion that he was killed off. He's simply continued to pop up in various comics since then, thanks to the mysteries of time travel, the Speed Force, the nature of the afterlife, writers who shamelessly contradict each other, and a couple of in-jokes over in the Marvel Universe that can't reasonably be held to have any bearing on DCU continuity :)

For instance, that website says helpfully, "In Crisis on Infinite Earths #8 it was clear that he was traveling backward through time as he ran to his death. But just what happened to him—aside from him dying, of course—was unclear." Then it went into the list of "sightings" but it had already admitted that he "died" in Crisis.
He was soon replaced by Wally West, his former sidekick as "Kid Flash."
Barry wasn't replaced by anyone. For someone to be replaced by someone else, they would have to have been removed from the entire continuum's memory. Barry Allen is still in hte memory of any DC character that existed in a Barry Allen time-slice... and Barry is still mentioned in the Speedster Museum or Flash Museum in Central City.
Never saw anyone else use that as if he thought it were the only possible definition for "replacing" someone before. People talk about finding "replacements" for other people in real life all the time, and they don't mean "the first guy to hold this job has just been erased from everybody's memories and now they think the new guy in the job is the only person who ever held the job!"

When GWB became President of the United States, if you asked me if he had just replaced Bill Clinton in the White House, I would have said yes. Not because he looked exactly like Clinton, or sounded exactly like him, or represented the same special interest groups in the voting population of the old USA, or had caused my memories of the Clinton Administration to suddenly evaporate into thin air so that I couldn't remember there had ever been anybody in the Oval Office before GWB, but simply because he had taken over the role of being the Current President of the United States.

[The Grey Man]

i thought that Barry Allen had joined the 'speed force' or something? and he sort of wasn't dead! whatever i'd love to see him return.