JLA #32: Return of the B-list JLA!

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Welp, I'm enjoying it so far. I think we've had enough mediocre stories with the A-list JLA that it's a pretty good time to let Dwayne McDuffie actually write some JLA stories without having to worry about the latest editorial edict or crossover or dangling plot-threads left over by the previous writer.

I still think Dinah is coming off a tad too petulant. Frankly, acting like this only justifies Hal & Ollie's decision to ditch her League. Hopefully, this story will mark an end to Black Canary's tenure as the most useless leader in JLA's recent history and actually get her leading the JLA without whining about it every other issue. I liked John's rationale for Dinah as a potentially great leader, but I'd like to see it in action.

McDuffie's characterization of John is absolutely spot-on. I was a bit affraid that he'd just write him like the animated version, which was always more of a Hal/John hybrid, but this issue totally put that to rest for me. John's intellect is something that most writers completely forget about. John Stewart is not some watered-down Hal Jordan with darker skin and a bad haircut, he's the smartest of all the Earth GL's. He out-thinks his opponents, he doesn't smack 'em in the face with a giant green boxing glove.

I also like where they're going with Dr.Light and Firestorm. The interplay between these two was great. I've always liked Vixen, but she hasn't done anything yet that's made me want to keep her on the team, aside from being catty with John, but it seems Dr Light has more than enough snark already.

[Ikonic]

Great comment. I totally agree.

[Greg Anderson]

Yeah, picked up this issue and really liked it a lot. Loved all the character moments, especially the John and Vixen scene. Firestorm and Dr. Light as the odd couple is pretty funny. Great stuff. I'm on for the next part.

[COMIC GEEK]

rather see ronnie raymond back on the jla. maybe after blackest night

[Greg Anderson]

I like this Jason guy. He stays. Bat-God had spoken.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Do we actually know that the editors are gonna let McDuffie do his job, or have they just stopped taking a day to day interest now that they've casually gutted the cast?

[Greg Anderson]

Do we actually know that the editors are gonna let McDuffie do his job, or have they just stopped taking a day to day interest now that they've casually gutted the cast?

I believe this through 34, 37-42 and a bit beyond is pretty much his stuff. Here's hoping.

[WorstThingUS]

This all sounds horrific to me. Three of the most experienced members of the JLA acting like children for no other reason than to launch a second book. I've asked this before, but is JLA Year One no longer continuity? Because it established a non-Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman JLA at the beginning, so their absence would hardly lead to this collapse.

[Karl O'Neill]

CBR gave it a bad review.

[Thok]

CBR gave it a bad review.

To be fair, CBR's review basically said what's been mentioned in the thread: McDuffie's doing great character work, but editorial mandates and interference have been gutting a lot of the interest in this arc.

It's also a bit weird to call this a B-list league. In terms of personalities and popularity sure (one could almost call it a C-list league in that respect), but in terms of power set you've got four of the twenty or so most powerful characters in DC and Vixen's not exactly weak. They need a detective type, and another tank who can just take a pounding while the rest of the characters do their stuff, but they shouldn't be getting have problems with a lack of power.

[Golden_Guardian]

Hmmm, is it me or is this just a transparent attempt to mirror the 'multiple' Avengers teams running around in Marvel?

[Greg Anderson]

To be fair, CBR's review basically said what's been mentioned in the thread: McDuffie's doing great character work, but editorial mandates and interference have been gutting a lot of the interest in this arc.


Understandable, but that can be said for the whole run. The issue itself was pretty good and didn't feel ham-fisted by much mandates and tie-ins despite having these specific characters to work with. It seem as if McDuffie is getting to some meat of ideas with this cast and it doesn't tie at all into anything else.

[Sijo]

This all sounds horrific to me. Three of the most experienced members of the JLA acting like children for no other reason than to launch a second book. I've asked this before, but is JLA Year One no longer continuity? Because it established a non-Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman JLA at the beginning, so their absence would hardly lead to this collapse.

JLAYOne is no longer canon; The Big Three were retconned (re-retconned?) as JLA founders after Infinite Crisis.

[Alexx1]

This all sounds horrific to me. Three of the most experienced members of the JLA acting like children for no other reason than to launch a second book. I've asked this before, but is JLA Year One no longer continuity? Because it established a non-Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman JLA at the beginning, so their absence would hardly lead to this collapse.


I've been wondering why DC couldn't have let McDuffie tell this story with Ollie and Hal in JLA. Why do we even need a second book. It seems divisive to the book and characters and fans. I'm sure McDuffie could have handled both stories in one book! Besides, I don't think Robinson is particularly an interesting writer though I have no doubt his mini will have great numbers but that's because of the characters and the art looked great to. I just feel a disservice has been done to McDuffie. I did like this issue. I'm not a reader who has to read about Batman, Superman, WW, each and every month to be happy. Though I am concerned about how BC is coming off. I get her frustration and I get her point and I think she's RIGHT. I just think she's WRONG in how she's handling it and it's not making her look good. She's a better leader and character than this and I hope there's a point to writing her this way when it's all said and done that's favorable to the character. But still good issue

[Hawkman]

I enjoyed the issue, too, and look forward to where McDuffie takes this team. Also, I love how Shadow Thief seems to be a more serious threat every time I seem him. First Infinite Crisis, then Manhunter, and now his Justice League of America appearances. Each time he pops up he's a bit more dangerous and psychopathic than the last, it seems. Being a Hawkman fan, I always liked the concept of Shadow Thief, but until Manhunter I never found him all too compelling as an actual character. Now, he's right up there with Vandal Savage as one of my favorite villains.

[Mat001]

I've been wondering why DC couldn't have let McDuffie tell this story with Ollie and Hal in JLA. Why do we even need a second book. It seems divisive to the book and characters and fans. I'm sure McDuffie could have handled both stories in one book! Besides, I don't think Robinson is particularly an interesting writer though I have no doubt his mini will have great numbers but that's because of the characters and the art looked great to. I just feel a disservice has been done to McDuffie. I did like this issue. I'm not a reader who has to read about Batman, Superman, WW, each and every month to be happy. Though I am concerned about how BC is coming off. I get her frustration and I get her point and I think she's RIGHT. I just think she's WRONG in how she's handling it and it's not making her look good. She's a better leader and character than this and I hope there's a point to writing her this way when it's all said and done that's favorable to the character. But still good issue

The story by James Robinson was to be a launching point for a second series. I don't feel that it is divisive since there were two and then three Justice League books years ago. Back then each book focused on it's own core cast and own storylines. And not to mention, for a number of years the JLA books have had interference from other DCU titles. From the Detroit League era to when Superman died and Hal became Parallax, through when Superman was an energy being to Diana's death during Morrison's run. So it's not uncommon for it to happen. The only difference is that McDuffie has had to endure a lot of stories, one right after the other, where things had to be changed and direct crossovers occured.

[Vic Vega]

This all sounds horrific to me. Three of the most experienced members of the JLA acting like children for no other reason than to launch a second book. I've asked this before, but is JLA Year One no longer continuity? Because it established a non-Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman JLA at the beginning, so their absence would hardly lead to this collapse.

The beginnig of this current series established that JLA year one is no longer continuity. The big three are again founders. So Hal is essentially pulling rank on Dinah who is no longer a founding member.

While it is completely in Hal's make up to pull this kind of move, I don't see Ollie going along with it. After all it's not Hal that he married.

[_OM_]

I like this Jason guy. He stays. Bat-God had spoken.

...Thugstorm. For this, we lost Ronnie Raymond?

[Shakes head in total dismay]

[Will44]

I'm not really looking forward to this type of JLA. I find I enjoy it most when it's the big 7 taking down crazy big threats.

The nice thing about that kind of JLA is that it makes the other teams relevant. I mean why read about B-listers in Outsiders, Doom Patrol, Titans, Teen Titans and Secret Six when I can read about them in the JLA?

But make the JLA a book about the BIG guns having insane, earth shattering adventures like taking down crazy space blobs out devour our universe, and not only is JLA more fun, but it makes the other team books more interesting too.

If we are going to see a more B-list line up for JLA, then at least have the Titans tackle crazy stuff like that while the JLA is filled with stories about Vixen's failing powers, Dr. Lights failing powers, Red Tornado's Identity Crisis, Roy's love live, etc.

[WorstThingUS]

Though I am concerned about how BC is coming off. I get her frustration and I get her point and I think she's RIGHT. I just think she's WRONG in how she's handling it and it's not making her look good. She's a better leader and character than this and I hope there's a point to writing her this way when it's all said and done that's favorable to the character.

It's just another sad case where character is sacrificed to accomplish an end. I know the circumstances aren't McDuffie's fault, but this just continues my utter disappointment in his work here because I doubt the edict included "Make Black Canary act as immature as possible."

The story by James Robinson was to be a launching point for a second series. I don't feel that it is divisive since there were two and then three Justice League books years ago. Back then each book focused on it's own core cast and own storylines. And not to mention, for a number of years the JLA books have had interference from other DCU titles. From the Detroit League era to when Superman died and Hal became Parallax, through when Superman was an energy being to Diana's death during Morrison's run. So it's not uncommon for it to happen.

Multiple teams, no. Multiple teams because some of the oldest, most experienced members suddenly decided to act like petulant teenagers, yes. Why couldn't this be a sanctioned pro-active team? Why does it have be "I'm gonna take my toys and go" type of development that makes it happen? Why is Dinah suddenly quick to give up? You'd think after her success with Birds of Prey she'd take this opportunity to try and recreate that.

Just sad overall. As CBR says, this should be a flagship book, but it's not.

[Sandy Hausler]

I still think Dinah is coming off a tad too petulant. Frankly, acting like this only justifies Hal & Ollie's decision to ditch her League. Hopefully, this story will mark an end to Black Canary's tenure as the most useless leader in JLA's recent history and actually get her leading the JLA without whining about it every other issue. I liked John's rationale for Dinah as a potentially great leader, but I'd like to see it in action.

McDuffie's characterization of John is absolutely spot-on. I was a bit affraid that he'd just write him like the animated version, which was always more of a Hal/John hybrid, but this issue totally put that to rest for me. John's intellect is something that most writers completely forget about. John Stewart is not some watered-down Hal Jordan with darker skin and a bad haircut, he's the smartest of all the Earth GL's. He out-thinks his opponents, he doesn't smack 'em in the face with a giant green boxing glove.


I agree with what you say about John's characterization, though I don't agree with his analysis of Black Canary's leadership abilities. Heck, the petualance that you mention shows that she is not a great leader. I think Barry Allen is the best JLA leader (at least as written by Waid in Year One). But Superman and Green Lantern have their points. (I disagree with John's analysis of Superman has leader, which, as I recall, is culled from Batman's analysis in Year 2, where Batman basically told Superman to leave the JLA, which he did -- very bad issue of that series -- but showing why Batman was not such a good leader.)

Sandy Hausler

[Vic Vega]

Multiple teams, no. Multiple teams because some of the oldest, most experienced members suddenly decided to act like petulant teenagers, yes. Why couldn't this be a sanctioned pro-active team? Why does it have be "I'm gonna take my toys and go" type of development that makes it happen? Why Dinah suddenly quick to give up? You'd think after her success with Birds of Prey she'd take this opportunity to try and recreate that.


If one of your oldest friends, your husband and somebody who is like a son to you all turn thier backs on you in a 48 hour period "the hell with it" seeems the natural response.

The problem is there is no rational in story reason for Hal's League to exist. So he forms it out of a fit of pique. Because otherwise what's the point?

Justice League Elite for all its faults had a reason to exist.

Accepting the book's premise that there are people in the world than need to be taken care of agressively (NOT killed) but guys like the Trinity can't be seen rolling that way.

Hence the Elite.

[WorstThingUS]

If one of your oldest friends, your husband and somebody who is like a son to you all turn thier backs on you in a 48 hour period "the hell with it" seeems the natural response.

The only "it" she should be questioning is her marriage, as she stayed with the team previously when Green Arrow quit and she's been there when Batman was the only member of the three.

The problem is there is no rational in story reason for Hal's League to exist. So he forms it out of a fit of pique. Because otherwise what's the point?

Justice League Elite for all its faults had a reason to exist.

Accepting the book's premise that there are people in the world than need to be taken care of agressively (NOT killed) but guys like the Trinity can't be seen rolling that way.

Hence the Elite.

But we've seen the Justice League Task Force, so there is a precedence for this. Hal and Ollie quitting out of spite is just the ultimate in bad writing contrivance.

[Slumber Hulk]

Story-wise it seems a little weak.

In response to Hal's criticism that the League does nothing, they stick together to do even more nothing than ever!

Weak. Do something. Hal was right.

[Vic Vega]

But we've seen the Justice League Task Force, so there is a precedence for this. Hal and Ollie quitting out of spite is just the ultimate in bad writing contrivance.

Well, technically Founder and current part-timer Hal Jordan quit out of spite. Reservist Ollie just decided to join Hal's team out of some SERIOUSLY misplaced priorities.

That's where the mischaracterization is to me. Hal's always been a preening egoist. But since when has Ollie been Hal's bitch?

As for your other point Task Force or Even Extreme Justice had anligit in story reason (one of my pet peeves about team books) to exist. As did the JLI and JLE.

But this? Hal wasn't even that close to J'onn to pull this. Aurthur Curry was, yeah but Hal?

[WorstThingUS]

Well, technically Founder and current part-timer Hal Jordan quit out of spite. Reservist Ollie just decided to join Hal's team out of some SERIOUSLY misplaced priorities.

That's where the mischaracterization is to me. Hal's always been a preening egoist. But since when has Ollie been Hal's bitch?



And isn't Ollie supposedly more mature now in his relationship to Dinah? I mean, that's why he finally wanted to marry her, right? Methinks he doesn't understand what that means. Especially the part where Dinah said Ollie undercuts her "at every turn." And especially considering he took orders from Nightwing. "Yeah, honey. You're a second generation hero a member of the JSA and JLA and kicked much ass as a BOP, but you're still a woman and this is the first Robin for god's sake!"

[Thok]

But this? Hal wasn't even that close to J'onn to pull this. Aurthur Curry was, yeah but Hal?

Didn't Hal get some of J'onn's memories in FC:Requiem? That suggests some level of connection between them. (Granted, both Hal and BC seemed weird choices for that responsibility at the time.)

[Vic Vega]

And isn't Ollie supposedly more mature now in his relationship to Dinah? I mean, that's why he finally wanted to marry her, right? Methinks he doesn't understand what that means. Especially the part where Dinah said Ollie undercuts her "at every turn." And especially considering he took orders from Nightwing. "Yeah, honey. You're a second generation hero a member of the JSA and JLA and kicked much ass as a BOP, but you're still a woman and this is the first Robin for god's sake!"

Twice. Once as a JLA and once as an Outsider.That makes it even WORSE.

Not that Dick isn't competant but dang, way to support your wife dude.

Though you can make the case Dinah should have seen this coming.

Why did she marry him again?

[celticguy]

Story-wise it seems a little weak.

In response to Hal's criticism that the League does nothing, they stick together to do even more nothing than ever!

Weak. Do something. Hal was right.

It is weak primarily in that you don't really see Hal deciding to do it you have to wait until what is it July? You basically saw the final portion of a scene, nothte build up.

Ollie and Hal have had the closet relationship out side of Bats andf Supes in the DCU for my money. that Ollie would have his back and have it not even occur to him it would hurt his wife seems about right.

It is not like he was undercutting her as a member of the Outsiders. By the way GA never served under Nightwing in the outsiders he was rescued by him once. He served under Batman and Batgirl.

I don't think it is just John, but also Aquaman, Batman, It was probably supposed to be the hawks as well. Some pretty big names and a few small ones to in the course of FC, in short amount of time. Many of these people he worked with for a long time it does not make sense he would call his team the Justice League since he seems to want to do what the other JLA will not. I can get why he is doing what he is doing.

I don't think it works lng term so it is probably good that it became a mini but we will see.

[Greg Anderson]

...Thugstorm. For this, we lost Ronnie Raymond?

[Shakes head in total dismay]

Thugstorm? Why "Thug" because he's black?

[AbsurdistEmergence]

The only thing I didn't care for in this issue was the very last panel. It would have probably been better if it showed Shadow Thief torturing her, without her being afraid of the dark. Sounds cheesy.

It was definitely an improvement on the last issue though.

[CBikle]

I've really liked the last 2 issues and I think McDuffie has done a great job of making lemonade from bad editorial policies.

Having said that, I'm not sure if the start of Hal's league was McDuffie's story to write; I think it was Robinson's.

Just speculation, but I think Robinson's league was supposed to start immediately after Final Crisis and was supposed to have been formed as a direct response to a DCU landscape where Batman, Jonn Jonzz, Hawkman, Hawkgirl (and other JLA ?) had been murdered (I think that's where the "proactive" bit was supposed to come in).

Because the timing of all the event books has been so screwed up, Robinson's book has been delayed to the point where the title won't have the same resonance that it would have had if it had been brought out immediately after Final Crisis.

[Zero Hunter]

I actully like it when the team is mostly made up of non big 7 cast. It lets a writer actully write a story without having to worry about crossover after crossover getting in the way. Everyone always like to talk about the Morrison big 7 era, but honeslty Morrison got lucky and didn't have any crossovers getting in the middle of his stories. The way DC is now I jsut don't think any writer can get away with not getting pulled into them or having to deal with major fallout bcause of them. When you have Superman, Wonder Women, Batman, Flash, and Green Lantern on your team you are always going to be at the whims of the writers of the main books when you are writing JLA.

[Constantine Drakon]

JLAYOne is no longer canon; The Big Three were retconned (re-retconned?) as JLA founders after Infinite Crisis.

It seems rather an extreme interpretation to say JLA Year One is no longer canon. Tweaked, certainly.

Pre-Crisis, the Appalaxians invaded and were defeated by Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Aquaman, Green Lantern, and Martian Manhunter. The latter five formed the core of the team, but Batman and Superman were considered founders, since they were there for that initial invasion and said they'd be willing to help out when they could.

Post-Crisis, the Appalaxians invaded and were defeated by Superman, Batman, Black Canary, Flash, Aquaman, Green Lantern, and Martian Manhunter. The latter five formed the core of the team, but Batman and Superman were considered founders, since they were there for that initial invasion and said they'd be willing to help out when they could.

In the version of the origin shown in 52, the Appalaxians invaded and were defeated by Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Black Canary, Flash, Aquaman, Green Lantern, and Martian Manhunter. The latter five formed the core of the team, but Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman were considered founders, since they were there for that initial invasion and said they'd be willing to help out when they could.

[babybro]

The issue was definitely a good read. Sign me into the boat where of folks who don't really care about the big 7. I see them as more of a part of history, but essentially it's time to move on to a new generation of heroes. The story was interesting and I like the art.

The only dislike I had was on how Vixen not only didn't apologize about her remark last issue, but attempted to be friendly with John afterwards as if her statements were sickening and filled with bigotry. I really wish one of these days John would just blow her off, as he has better things to do than to deal with a bigot.

[Greg Anderson]

The issue was definitely a good read. Sign me into the boat where of folks who don't really care about the big 7. I see them as more of a part of history, but essentially it's time to move on to a new generation of heroes. The story was interesting and I like the art.

The only dislike I had was on how Vixen not only didn't apologize about her remark last issue, but attempted to be friendly with John afterwards as if her statements were sickening and filled with bigotry. I really wish one of these days John would just blow her off, as he has better things to do than to deal with a bigot.

I think it's time to move on from the Vixen comment. It was thrown out for character moments and it lead to us trying to understand why she would do so and we got her interaction with her and him in this issue. She obviously likes him and wants to know why he's so stiff all the time and always under Hal like how he is. It's like John said to her, "This is the second time you're questioned my independence." I really liked that little moment with them. I actually find it interesting. I honestly feel people are getting hurt over her comment far too hard and for little reason.

[babybro]

I think it's time to move on from the Vixen comment. It was thrown out for character moments and it lead to us trying to understand why she would do so and we got her interaction with her and him in this issue. She obviously likes him and wants to know why he's so stiff all the time and always under Hal like how he is. It's like John said to her, "This is the second time you're questioned my independence." I really liked that little moment with them. I actually find it interesting. I honestly feel people are getting hurt over her comment far too hard and for little reason.

Well again, no offense, but that's your opinion. You and others may have no problem with her remark but others such as myself do. And there are plenty of reasons behind it, but I don't want to throw the thread off course. Plain and simple, her comment was filled with bigotry, and like any racial remark, will leave a stain that's hard to erase. Now of course some people will have little hassle to it seeing as

A) The culprit was a black female in comparison to say,a white male.

B) Comments such as that are widely given in the black community.

The key problem for me was that she did not see anything wrong with her behavior, nor apologized for it. In fact, I would not be surprised that under mcduffie's pen, we might see even more bigoted filled remarks. But I wouldn't tolerate such comments from a normal person, let alone a "hero or heroine."

So IMO, if John has any self respect, he would drop Mari like a bad habit, as I surely would given the same situation. But again, this is my opinion so.

[Greg Anderson]

LOL! Wow, dawg, seriously. As you said, comments such as that are widely given in the black community. That's why I didn't see it as harsh as others such as yourself did. I've noticed when it comes to some of McDuffie's writing, there's been some references to things in black culture or common things that happen or is said that black people would use and I sort of like seeing stuff like that incorporated. Sure, it was wrong of Mari to say that, and it's suppose to be. I think that was the intention. Doesn't make her a terrible person, just misguided in what she said. Who knows, maybe after hanging around John more, she'll understand how wrong her comment is. People need to stop taking this so personally.

[babybro]

LOL! Wow, dawg, seriously. As you said, comments such as that are widely given in the black community. That's why I didn't see it as harsh as others such as yourself did. I've noticed when it comes to some of McDuffie's writing, there's been some references to things in black culture or common things that happen or is said that black people would use and I sort of like seeing stuff like that incorporated. Sure, it was wrong of Mari to say that, and it's suppose to be. I think that was the intention. Doesn't make her a terrible person, just misguided in what she said. Who knows, maybe after hanging around John more, she'll understand how wrong her comment is. People need to stop taking this so personally.

Well yes of course, mcduffie does indeed incorporate it. Hence why my problem is with the character Mari and not the writer himself. But just like how I would not associate myself with individuals who believe it's okay to use those words, nor would I tolerate that personally from "heroes and heroines." Hence why I hope John drops her like a bad habit. But misguided? Far from it. Not anymore misguided that a white women clutching her purse when she walks across the street when she see a pair of young black males walking past her, or a rich white man who locks his bmw doors when he see a pair of hip hop dressed young black males walk past his car, or even a white male who disagrees with IR relationships because he believes the caucasian features will disappear. I wouldn't tolerate that sort of behavior from any comic book character, so Mari definitely doesn't get a free pass in my book just because she's black. In the end, for me, until she realizes the error of her ways, she's in the bottom of the totem pole.

[Doc Goblin]

I really enjoyed this issue. I think it shows what McDuffie can do when he's not being drowned in editorial mandates and other people's stories. Here he gets a handful of characters that are pretty much his alone to play with and we see those characters' personalities shine.

It seems like we're seeing signs of a little John/Mari thing brewing. I like the dynamic McDuffie has between them. I also think the crap Mari is giving John is important for his character. She's voicing the general impression readers have about John Stewart. That he's just Hal Jordan's sidekick. It gives John the opportunity to confront that stuff directly in the book. It's good that McDuffie is doing it, because Geoff Johns sure isn't doing much to help that impression of John.

I really like Jason Rusch but... I just hate all the lame baggage the character has gotten saddled with. Most notably his girlfriend. I hated that character when she was introduced in his series. I also don't like that he's become just this generic young hero archetype. I don't blame McDuffie for it or anything. That happened back when Jolley left Firestorm's book and took Jason's personality traits with him. It's just a shame to see a good character like Jason drowning in all of the generic Firestorm gimmicks.

[Greg Anderson]

It seems like we're seeing signs of a little John/Mari thing brewing. I like the dynamic McDuffie has between them. I also think the crap Mari is giving John is important for his character. She's voicing the general impression readers have about John Stewart. That he's just Hal Jordan's sidekick. It gives John the opportunity to confront that stuff directly in the book. It's good that McDuffie is doing it, because Geoff Johns sure isn't doing much to help that impression of John.


Thank you! Someone else who notices this. I was discussing this with a friend of mine also.

[Hypestyle]

... hopefully there will be some romance happening soon..
Firestorm & Dr. Light

John Stewart and Vixen

john's assessment of batman & superman's leadership shortcomings was on-point..

I have woefully little knowledge of DC villainy beyond batman & superman.. shadow thief.. what's his history? same with this Star Thief..

[babybro]

Thank you! Someone else who notices this. I was discussing this with a friend of mine also.

Oh that's certainly not a problem. I can completely see her having that type of perspective and while I may disagree with it, I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's when she inserted race into the picture where her point went completely down the tube, as race has nothing to do with their relationship.

[Greg Anderson]

Oh that's certainly not a problem. I can completely see her having that type of perspective and while I may disagree with it, I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's when she inserted race into the picture where her point went completely down the tube, as race has nothing to do with their relationship.

I've heard multiple times from people how John, the black Lantern, isn't as developed as a character, that he's the under-developed black man's GL, side kick and understudy to Hal.

[dupersuper]

I agree with what you say about John's characterization, though I don't agree with his analysis of Black Canary's leadership abilities. Heck, the petualance that you mention shows that she is not a great leader. I think Barry Allen is the best JLA leader (at least as written by Waid in Year One). But Superman and Green Lantern have their points. (I disagree with John's analysis of Superman has leader, which, as I recall, is culled from Batman's analysis in Year 2, where Batman basically told Superman to leave the JLA, which he did -- very bad issue of that series -- but showing why Batman was not such a good leader.)

Sandy Hausler

I'm a huge Superman fan, but have no issue with either JLA: Incarnations # 2, or Johns comments. The Incarnations issue took place early in the JLA's second year, and showed Superman not yet ready to lead the team because of much the same traits John brings up. By the Morison era, when Incarnations #7 occurs, you see Superman more experienced and having overcome his need to charge in to save the day as soon as everything starts. Both Superman and Batman (especially Supes) are superb natural leaders because they're the best at what they do, have enormous will/charisma/personalty, and Superman because he is completely trusted, but both have larger than life legacies to live up to, and that can make a more down to Earth hero like Canary a better choice for chairman. The rushing in to save the day is also something that Superman, though he's managed to temper it, would certainly still strugle with on a team. Both his Comments when asked to join the post-Giffen league ("I'm just not sure how some of them could keep up with me") and John and Maris' comments in this issue ("We'd follow him into Hell." "But he'd never ask us to, he'd just go in and handle it himself.") showcase this. I also like the comments because of Johns "I think too much" attitude, which harkens back to Gerard Jones time on the character.

[dupersuper]

I actully like it when the team is mostly made up of non big 7 cast. It lets a writer actully write a story without having to worry about crossover after crossover getting in the way. Everyone always like to talk about the Morrison big 7 era, but honeslty Morrison got lucky and didn't have any crossovers getting in the middle of his stories. The way DC is now I jsut don't think any writer can get away with not getting pulled into them or having to deal with major fallout bcause of them. When you have Superman, Wonder Women, Batman, Flash, and Green Lantern on your team you are always going to be at the whims of the writers of the main books when you are writing JLA.

Actually, he got caught up in plenty. Genesis happened between issues 10 and 11; the 1st and 2nd issues of his Rock of Ages epic, Supes got new powers, Wonder Woman became the goddess of truth and her mom took over for a time, Flash broke his legs (though that was Morrisons fault :smile: ), JM Dematis wrote a Day of Judgement fill-in. In between issue 4 and 5 the sun was nearly destroyed, Hal died, Superman lost his powers, got married, cut his hair,, then turned into an energy being (that was later split in 2). He just got around it by putting as much of the story before or after the other big arcs as possible, and only giving them brief mentions if possible. To be fair to Duffy, though, I get the feeling editorial wasn't interfering nearly as much in his run; just the basic "you can't use her, she's dead, can you use this guy or that guy instead" continuity stuff...and it was a lot easier to write around Superman being sparkly than Batman being dead.

[dupersuper]

In the version of the origin shown in 52, the Appalaxians invaded and were defeated by Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Black Canary, Flash, Aquaman, Green Lantern, and Martian Manhunter. The latter five formed the core of the team, but Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman were considered founders, since they were there for that initial invasion and said they'd be willing to help out when they could.

This is the version I prefer; keep the excellent JLA Year 1, and just tack on Supes Bats and WW as reserve members to give them the founding status they deserve.

[dupersuper]

I have woefully little knowledge of DC villainy beyond batman & superman.. shadow thief.. what's his history? same with this Star Thief..

Shadow Thief is an old Hawkman villain. he used to use just a high tech suit, but it looks like Starbreaker has given him a major power upgrade. Starbreaker is a cosmic vampire. He destroys planets and feeds off the energy. He appeared in a silver age Justice League story (I forget the issue #'s) that was touched on a couple issues ago. It was also touched on briefly way back in Action comics #650, and Starbreaker himself showed up a second time in Jurgens 2nd JLA story arc.

[Alexx1]

... hopefully there will be some romance happening soon..
John Stewart and Vixen

.

That may very well be what it's leading to. I don't see an issue with what she said to him. I think a lot of readers feel that way if they're really honest with themselves. It was nice to see John address it. I think Vixen will come to appreciate the man John Stewart is and even find it attractive.

[jackdaw53]

Why worry so much that much about continuity ACROSS different series?? Just set the JLA in a less specified time.... or nowadays just claim story is set on a different world. (After all its about time DC got some story telling advantages from return of multiverse... I've not seen too many so far.)

Then let JLA writer use characters (and versions there-of) he prefers, let him tell stories he wants. Tell him each JLA story has to take notice of his earlier stories.. but he or she doesn't need to worry about what's happening elsewhere. I'd bet the JLA stories would improve.

[Greg Anderson]

Why worry so much that much about continuity ACROSS different series?? Just set the JLA in a less specified time.... or nowadays just claim story is set on a different world. (After all its about time DC got some story telling advantages from return of multiverse... I've not seen too many so far.)

Then let JLA writer use characters (and versions there-of) he prefers, let him tell stories he wants. Tell him each JLA story has to take notice of his earlier stories.. but he or she doesn't need to worry about what's happening elsewhere. I'd bet the JLA stories would improve.

I like you because you're awesome.

[mattman]

Who else wants to see a Shadow Thief vs Nightshade fight?

Since this is now the B-list JLA, she'd make a great member with a unique power set.

MZ

[Thok]

That may very well be what it's leading to. I don't see an issue with what she said to him. I think a lot of readers feel that way if they're really honest with themselves. It was nice to see John address it. I think Vixen will come to appreciate the man John Stewart is and even find it attractive.

I think people tend to see this possibility as more likely because they had a relationship in the JLU cartoon (even though that relationship was clearly never going to be more than a short interlude in the cartoon.)

Also, blackest Night is going to keep John busy on the relationship front (between his old wife Katma Tui possibly coming back in some form, and whatever the deal is with new Star Sapphire Fatality), so if they are getting a relationship it won't be for a while, and likely would be a rebound type relationship.

[WorstThingUS]

Why worry so much that much about continuity ACROSS different series??

Because certain stories don't make sense depending on the continuity being used, that's why.

[Zero Hunter]

Why worry so much that much about continuity ACROSS different series?? Just set the JLA in a less specified time.... or nowadays just claim story is set on a different world. (After all its about time DC got some story telling advantages from return of multiverse... I've not seen too many so far.)

Then let JLA writer use characters (and versions there-of) he prefers, let him tell stories he wants. Tell him each JLA story has to take notice of his earlier stories.. but he or she doesn't need to worry about what's happening elsewhere. I'd bet the JLA stories would improve.

If thats the case then why even have a regualr series at all? Just amke everything elseworlds limtied series if you want to go with something like that. The simple fact is when a book is supposed to be the flagship title of your contected universe it has to follow continuty. Its just that simple. If a writer can not handle that aspect of a flagship title then they should nto be working on the series to begin with.

[babybro]

I've heard multiple times from people how John, the black Lantern, isn't as developed as a character, that he's the under-developed black man's GL, side kick and understudy to Hal.

But you see, that's the thing. Once again, race has nothing to do with him being considered under developed. Those who state such things are inserting race into the picture. The same way Mari inserted race into his relationship with Hal. Race has nothing to do with the close relationship he has with Hal. Because if Hal was a black guy, you wouldn't be able to make the same statement.

[jackdaw53]

If thats the case then why even have a regualr series at all? Just amke everything elseworlds limtied series if you want to go with something like that. The simple fact is when a book is supposed to be the flagship title of your contected universe it has to follow continuty. Its just that simple. If a writer can not handle that aspect of a flagship title then they should nto be working on the series to begin with.

Is the current series of JLA much cop? Are the artificial rules imposed helping to improve or reduce the quality of story telling? I'd answer "no" and "not helping". Such have been the interruptions imposed recently by big events, cross-overs, character forced out, and others parachuted in... that I'd defy any writer to come up with a really good series.

There are other ways of doing things. The vol 1 series of Brave and Bold ran to 200 issues, with writers like Bob Haney paying attention to what happened in B and B and ignoring the rest of the DCU. And for my money... it was a lot more fun than 99% of todays series. If artificial rules get in the way of reading pleasure... its time to change them.

Yes... I know that's my subjective opinion... but I suspect at least a few others will agree.

[zhivago]

Editors or no editors the only issue I really enjoyed ever since Brad Meltzer's run was the one written by Len Wein. I hope the other JLA will be what I excpect from JLA - DC premier team and not two issues of Canary whining.

[pariah-1972]

I think the last time i read JLA was when Red Arrow and Hawkgirl took down that one guy with the flame throwers ... Anyways i haven't been keeping track of what's been going on, so i don't know what Ollie and Hal's problem with Dinah is but even before that some of the male members of the team were not respecting her (Bats for instance)But this seems like it could cause some martial discord between her and Ollie .

Anyways i thought this issue was pretty good save for the pacing which started off agnonizingly slow and then kicked into third gear with Firestorm and Dr. Light plot which is weird cause i usually don't notice these things but it was nice cause i was afraid i was only going to get an all talky issue..

I liked the chemistry between Firestorm and Dr. Light and would love to see more of them
and i always liked the JLA when it wasn't being ramrodded by the Trinity.

Of course sometimes i feel like the only one who liked the Detroit League:redface:


Rags Morales seems to be improving a little bit in his work which looked a lot cleaner than his Identity Crisis stuff and less overly rendered and i really liked the detailed costume designs.
I think it would be nice if he could give all the females different faces but i guess that's a nitpick.

Overrall a pretty good issue and i will probably pick up the next one.

[Mat001]

Why worry so much that much about continuity ACROSS different series?? Just set the JLA in a less specified time.... or nowadays just claim story is set on a different world. (After all its about time DC got some story telling advantages from return of multiverse... I've not seen too many so far.)

Then let JLA writer use characters (and versions there-of) he prefers, let him tell stories he wants. Tell him each JLA story has to take notice of his earlier stories.. but he or she doesn't need to worry about what's happening elsewhere. I'd bet the JLA stories would improve.

The days of that happening are pretty much long over. DC and Marvel both have their teams be affected by outside influcence. Neither company is going to change that. Besides, if that happened then the JLA book would become like Superman/Batman and that book has a lot of complaints against it as it is, with fans complaining about it not fitting in with continuity.

[Vic Vega]

The issue was definitely a good read. Sign me into the boat where of folks who don't really care about the big 7. I see them as more of a part of history, but essentially it's time to move on to a new generation of heroes. The story was interesting and I like the art.

The only dislike I had was on how Vixen not only didn't apologize about her remark last issue, but attempted to be friendly with John afterwards as if her statements were sickening and filled with bigotry. I really wish one of these days John would just blow her off, as he has better things to do than to deal with a bigot.

It seems now that Mari wasn't dissing John as much as she was FLIRTING with him. As in "You're useless to me if you can't or won't put up with my $%!#"

[Greg Anderson]

But you see, that's the thing. Once again, race has nothing to do with him being considered under developed. Those who state such things are inserting race into the picture. The same way Mari inserted race into his relationship with Hal. Race has nothing to do with the close relationship he has with Hal. Because if Hal was a black guy, you wouldn't be able to make the same statement.

That's the whole point. This whole Mari thing is practically commentary, a reflection on how those specific fans say and feel about John. Race shouldn't be that issue, but people use that anyway.

[Greg Anderson]

The days of that happening are pretty much long over. DC and Marvel both have their teams be affected by outside influcence. Neither company is going to change that. Besides, if that happened then the JLA book would become like Superman/Batman and that book has a lot of complaints against it as it is, with fans complaining about it not fitting in with continuity.

That really annoys me. So much books would be so damn readable if not for this whole constant world continuity thing. It can be fun, yes, but there's so obviously so much restrictions.

[Captain Jim]

I bought last issue, but put this one back on the rack. I'm simply not interested in reading about this team. I can't believe how this book has lost its way in such a short time.

[Karl O'Neill]

me too jim.

At least we have robinson's JLA to look forward to.

[Captain Jim]

I am interested in Robinson's team.

[pariah-1972]

I am interested in Robinson's team.If it ever comes out !

[Captain Jim]

It's on the July solicitation list.

[babybro]

It seems now that Mari wasn't dissing John as much as she was FLIRTING with him. As in "You're useless to me if you can't or won't put up with my $%!#"

Haha, when was calling someone a driving miss daisy ever consider flirting? Especially since she didn't back down. No, her comments were definitely meant to sting, to be filled with venom. But again, that was last issue. In this issue, she's clearly seen as flirting even though she didn't apologize for her mistake. Which is why "I" personally hope she shut her down cold.

That's the whole point. This whole Mari thing is practically commentary, a reflection on how those specific fans say and feel about John. Race shouldn't be that issue, but people use that anyway.

Again, I understand that, and I can understand Mari being one of those person. But just like how I would stay away from someone making uncle tom or miss daisy remarks in real life, so would I personally have a large dislike for someone who says it in a comic, especially if the person doesn't realize his/her mistake.

This remind me of a conversation I had with a guy on the dc boards wanting someone to call him out on something like this with the character hardware from shadow cabinet. I vividly was against it, hoping that they would keep that for something gritty like the crime syndicate. Little did I know I would see that coming from a heroine that I originally like. Scary enough, it seems like the only way something like this won't happen in comics is if they're only one black person on a team. Because for some reason if two black characters are on the same team, and one is close friends with someone of another race, especially white, the uncle tom bomb must be dropped. A very sad state if anything else.

[Greg Anderson]

Heh, yeah, I feel you on that. :redface:

[CBikle]

Haha, when was calling someone a driving miss daisy ever consider flirting? Especially since she didn't back down. No, her comments were definitely meant to sting, to be filled with venom. But again, that was last issue. In this issue, she's clearly seen as flirting even though she didn't apologize for her mistake. Which is why "I" personally hope she shut her down cold.

Again, I understand that, and I can understand Mari being one of those person. But just like how I would stay away from someone making uncle tom or miss daisy remarks in real life, so would I personally have a large dislike for someone who says it in a comic, especially if the person doesn't realize his/her mistake.



The "Miss Daisy" remark is also a little odd when you consider that Vixen is from Africa and she wouldn't necessarily have the same experience with racism that African Americans might (of course she could have experienced racism through Apartheid or her years in modeling)

[Vic Vega]

That's the whole point. This whole Mari thing is practically commentary, a reflection on how those specific fans say and feel about John. Race shouldn't be that issue, but people use that anyway.

Well John has always been deferential to Hal in a way that none of the other Earth G.L.'s are. As if he were the Tonto to Hal's Lone Ranger.

You could see people wondering what was up with that.

[CBikle]

Well John has always been deferential to Hal in a way that none of the other Earth G.L.'s are. As if he were the Tonto to Hal's Lone Ranger.

You could see people wondering what was up with that.

The real-world reason is so that John would be more accepted by Hal Jordan fans as his replacement (if they'd given John a personality like Guy Gardner's, some would have perceived racial overtones in this or seen it as some sort of statement against affirmative action).

The in-story reason is probably just Green Lantern Corp camaraderie and the fact that as a Green Lantern, you interact with all types of exotic alien lifeforms and cultures, which would make any type of Earth-based bigotry and intolerance look even stupider than it normally would.

[Constantine Drakon]

The "Miss Daisy" remark is also a little odd when you consider that Vixen is from Africa and she wouldn't necessarily have the same experience with racism that African Americans might (of course she could have experienced racism through Apartheid or her years in modeling)

Vixen was born in Africa and lived there for a few years. Her father was a priest and a vocal (and beloved) critic of the government. Then her father was killed and she was sent off to America, while her uncle seized political power. She's spent a good chunk of her life growing up in America.

As for John and Hal... I really feel that John's been declawed since Hal's return. They were friends, sure, but John used to clash on occasion (most obviously in Mosaic). But everyone's on their best behavior since Hal's return, so people that used to sometimes fight with him are now all in his corner no matter what.

[Desaad]

Well John has always been deferential to Hal in a way that none of the other Earth G.L.'s are. As if he were the Tonto to Hal's Lone Ranger.

You could see people wondering what was up with that.

That's not REALLY true though. As a matter of fact, there has historically been abundant friction between John Stewart and Hal Jordan. They never liked each other in the beginning - Hal felt that Stewart was too angry, too bitter, and John felt that Jordan was too much a tool of the machine, a force for oppression - and that continued well into the 90s with Mosiac.

Geoff Johns' John Stewart is pretty different from where we last saw him in terms of his relationship with Hal, but I see it more as an evolution of their relationship, and of John Stewart and Hal Jordan's characters, than anything else. They've been through an insane amount together, and they've both grown a lot as people and can see each other for who and what they truly are.

I've always been a big fan of the bromance, and it strikes me that Hal has the most 'bromances' of anyone in comics (John, Ollie, Barry), which says a lot about his character, and the type of person he is. In that sense, John's protectiveness of Hal is just consistent characterization.

[Ex_]

Why was Black Canary acting like a child? I totally dig the B-List Justice League--I loved the banter, love the characters, excited to see the future of this JLA, but I just can't get over Black Canary being such a whiner. I understand her being angry at the Big Three for having their secret meeting room, and not really letting her lead, but the Hal/Ollie thing--c'mon, Dinah. Act like a leader.

And don't even make me get into her decking Ollie in the face..

[babybro]

That's not REALLY true though. As a matter of fact, there has historically been abundant friction between John Stewart and Hal Jordan. They never liked each other in the beginning - Hal felt that Stewart was too angry, too bitter, and John felt that Jordan was too much a tool of the machine, a force for oppression - and that continued well into the 90s with Mosiac.

Geoff Johns' John Stewart is pretty different from where we last saw him in terms of his relationship with Hal, but I see it more as an evolution of their relationship, and of John Stewart and Hal Jordan's characters, than anything else. They've been through an insane amount together, and they've both grown a lot as people and can see each other for who and what they truly are.

I've always been a big fan of the bromance, and it strikes me that Hal has the most 'bromances' of anyone in comics (John, Ollie, Barry), which says a lot about his character, and the type of person he is. In that sense, John's protectiveness of Hal is just consistent characterization.


Took the words right out of my mouth. One thing I like so much about the hercules comic is the strong relationship he has with cho. DC has never really had a really close interracial friendship before, and even marvel originally only had one with Luke Cage and Iron Fist. So I was really glad that DC decided to show as well that people can have really close friends of another race, but as usual, when that happens, you get the uncle tom remark like from vixen. A sad state of affairs indeed.

[titanfan]

DC has never really had a really close interracial friendship before,

DC has tons. Halo/Katana; Fire/Ice; Cyborg/Changeling; Rick Flag/Bronze Tiger; Geo-Force/Black Lightning; various relationships in Legion, etc.

[Fatguy]

Why was Black Canary acting like a child? I totally dig the B-List Justice League--I loved the banter, love the characters, excited to see the future of this JLA, but I just can't get over Black Canary being such a whiner. I understand her being angry at the Big Three for having their secret meeting room, and not really letting her lead, but the Hal/Ollie thing--c'mon, Dinah. Act like a leader.

And don't even make me get into her decking Ollie in the face..

I agree, she's acting like a 14 year old girl.

I thought the issue overall was ok. My biggest problem is that I find this lineup to be extremely unexciting. This issue did make me like New Firestorm more though.

[WorstThingUS]

Why was Black Canary acting like a child?

Because this is poorly written, period. Is Gail Simone the only person who can write this character?

[dupersuper]

Because this is poorly written, period. Is Gail Simone the only person who can write this character?

No, Mark Waid wrote her well in JLA Year1...Jones did ok in JSA (not that she was used much)...she was done well enough in the silver age JLA to become this popular in the first place...

[CBikle]

Because this is poorly written, period. Is Gail Simone the only person who can write this character?

Actually, I find McDuffie's Black Canary to be the most interesting incarnation of her yet. She had the incredibly bad luck of having Darkseid finally executing his big master plan that he'd been setting up for eons and then having that followed up with the New Krypton business (maybe Amos Fortune threw the Stellaration "whammy" on the BoP as he was falling to his doom ?) and she's just generally pissed about the awful timing of everything and everyone.

Simone's/Dixon's version is interesting too, but that's just another side to a character that, for the most part, was pretty much a blank slate without a developed personality until after COIE (Giffen & Dematteis JLI version was kind of a suck up to Batman and sort of a teacher's pet; the JLA: Year 1 version was kind of a Silk Spectre knock off, etc.).

If you look at Black Canary's history, she's always been a stronger, almost "A"-list hero when Green Arrow isn't part of her life whether that's because he's unintentionally holding her back from her true potential or maybe she's just a better, more focused superhero when she's unhappy and/or alone ?

McDuffie's version isn't all that contradictory to how she's been presented in the past.

[Avenger08]

I love what the JLA is doing now. I like how Dr. Light is on the team now. I really dont know that much about her, but i like her character alot. I love how Vixen was drawn in the Stewart and her scene, it made her look real

[Shaka]

I've heard multiple times from people how John, the black Lantern, isn't as developed as a character, that he's the under-developed black man's GL, side kick and understudy to Hal.

Which is a shame because the JLU version is sooo much better and a much more interesting character. GL supposedly "stars" Hal and John but how often does John have a solo feature? John also doesn't seem to have much personality between "mad" and "quiet"

[Shaka]

It seems rather an extreme interpretation to say JLA Year One is no longer canon. Tweaked, certainly.

Pre-Crisis, the Appalaxians invaded and were defeated by Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Aquaman, Green Lantern, and Martian Manhunter. The latter five formed the core of the team, but Batman and Superman were considered founders, since they were there for that initial invasion and said they'd be willing to help out when they could.

Post-Crisis, the Appalaxians invaded and were defeated by Superman, Batman, Black Canary, Flash, Aquaman, Green Lantern, and Martian Manhunter. The latter five formed the core of the team, but Batman and Superman were considered founders, since they were there for that initial invasion and said they'd be willing to help out when they could.

In the version of the origin shown in 52, the Appalaxians invaded and were defeated by Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Black Canary, Flash, Aquaman, Green Lantern, and Martian Manhunter. The latter five formed the core of the team, but Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman were considered founders, since they were there for that initial invasion and said they'd be willing to help out when they could.

This is the correct response. I believe Didio was asked about this, Year 1 is in continuity albeit tweaked.

[Constantine Drakon]

Which is a shame because the JLU version is sooo much better and a much more interesting character.

*Twitch.*
*Twitch.*

I'm still torn on whether that show was the best or worst thing to ever happen to John.
On the one hand, it got him a wider audience.
On the other hand, he's a much better character in the old comics than he ever was in the show, and the attempts to shoehorn in the show's personality are doing serious damage to the character. I saw Johns referring to him as a sniper, first and foremost, the other week.

No. He's an architect. He finds out how things work, he knows what parts of a whole don't flow because they don't love one another. He knows how to redirect and redistribute violent energy. He studies structures - the structures of buildings, of politics, of music and art. Being an architect is what defines him, what makes him look at everything and ask himself how it works and how it could work better. He was the Master Builder, the man that took Mosaic World, a planet made up of bits and pieces lifted from a dozen different worlds all thrown together (complete with natives that didn't get along with one another), and he did the impossible and made that world WORK.

But people haven't read the old comics, so we get John Stewart: Soldier.

[Greg Anderson]

I really wish DC released the Mosaic stuff. I read a few pages of a few issues and it was amazing.

[OzBat!]

John Stewart's history has been tweaked. He was a marine first, then after his tour of duty went to uni and got his architecture degree. They've melded the cartoon and the comics versions together. This has been explored in minor flashbacks and small comments in the main GL title.

[WorstThingUS]

McDuffie's version isn't all that contradictory to how she's been presented in the past.

I don't recall petulant teenager being part of her make-up before. And this also flies in the face of Ollie's supposed recent "growth." And I'm glad to see being possessed, turned into a mass murderer and becoming the Spectre has made Hal a better man. Seriously, they don't all have to be jerks for a splinter team to come into existence so I just question why DC went this way.

[Shaka]

*Twitch.*
*Twitch.*

I'm still torn on whether that show was the best or worst thing to ever happen to John.
On the one hand, it got him a wider audience.
On the other hand, he's a much better character in the old comics than he ever was in the show, and the attempts to shoehorn in the show's personality are doing serious damage to the character. I saw Johns referring to him as a sniper, first and foremost, the other week.

No. He's an architect. He finds out how things work, he knows what parts of a whole don't flow because they don't love one another. He knows how to redirect and redistribute violent energy. He studies structures - the structures of buildings, of politics, of music and art. Being an architect is what defines him, what makes him look at everything and ask himself how it works and how it could work better. He was the Master Builder, the man that took Mosaic World, a planet made up of bits and pieces lifted from a dozen different worlds all thrown together (complete with natives that didn't get along with one another), and he did the impossible and made that world WORK.

But people haven't read the old comics, so we get John Stewart: Soldier.

I agree 100%...DC has tried to shoe-horn that personality onto the comics personality and it has resulted in him being dry and rigid. If you can accept that the JLU is basically a new character with some connection to the original I think you'll find a much more nuanced and developed character in the cartoon than the one in the comics right now.

[Vic Vega]

*Twitch.*
*Twitch.*

I'm still torn on whether that show was the best or worst thing to ever happen to John.
On the one hand, it got him a wider audience.
On the other hand, he's a much better character in the old comics than he ever was in the show, and the attempts to shoehorn in the show's personality are doing serious damage to the character. I saw Johns referring to him as a sniper, first and foremost, the other week.

No. He's an architect. He finds out how things work, he knows what parts of a whole don't flow because they don't love one another. He knows how to redirect and redistribute violent energy. He studies structures - the structures of buildings, of politics, of music and art. Being an architect is what defines him, what makes him look at everything and ask himself how it works and how it could work better. He was the Master Builder, the man that took Mosaic World, a planet made up of bits and pieces lifted from a dozen different worlds all thrown together (complete with natives that didn't get along with one another), and he did the impossible and made that world WORK.

But people haven't read the old comics, so we get John Stewart: Soldier.

pragmatically speaking, if you asked folks what character type was more interestingin an action adventure genre, the broody intellectual architect with identity issues or the gruff drill sargeant with the sentimental interior most folks would pick the latter.

The Diniverse guys finally figured out how to make folks other than the people who read Mosaic in the 90's (and I'm one of them) give a rat's ass about John, who prior to the cartoon was less popular than Kilowog.

[CBikle]

I don't recall petulant teenager being part of her make-up before.

I don't see it that way; I see someone who's understandably frustrated and pissed off about all the recent tragedy and how it's affected the JLA, under her watch.

Sometimes people get pissed off and vent.

[WorstThingUS]

I don't see it that way; I see someone who's understandably frustrated and pissed off about all the recent tragedy and how it's affected the JLA, under her watch.

Sometimes people get pissed off and vent.

Shutting down the JLA is more than simple "venting." This "I don't like it so I'm done" attitude by Hal and Dinah is a horrible disservice to both their characters.

[Sandy Hausler]

I don't see it that way; I see someone who's understandably frustrated and pissed off about all the recent tragedy and how it's affected the JLA, under her watch.

Sometimes people get pissed off and vent.

I guess that's why she married Ollie. She can "vent" in her unique way and not end up in divorce court.

Sandy Hausler

[CBikle]

I guess that's why she married Ollie. She can "vent" in her unique way and not end up in divorce court.

Sandy Hausler

Yeah, her sucker-punching GA in that one JLA issue was interesting and a little disturbing (but not completely out of character for her or superheroes in general).

Maybe she's been on the rag ?

[WorstThingUS]

Maybe she's been on the rag ?

And we've hit rock bottom...

[Vic Vega]

Shutting down the JLA is more than simple "venting." This "I don't like it so I'm done" attitude by Hal and Dinah is a horrible disservice to both their characters.

Its not like she's leaving Earth undefended.

Dinah simply decided she was not going to try to run a League in competition with Hal. Considering that she knows for a fact that that several Leaguers would probably respect Hal's authority more than hers. And considering she ran the resistance during Final Crisis, she's entitled to be pissed.

This is only unacceptable if you think that Superheros can't ego trip, get P.O.d and be @#$%ty to each other.

That kind of stuff is what makes these characters interesting.

[WorstThingUS]

Its not like she's leaving Earth undefended.

Dinah simply decided she was not going to try to run a League in competition with Hal. Considering that she knows for a fact that that several Leaguers would probably respect Hal's authority more than hers. And considering she ran the resistance during Final Crisis, she's entitled to be pissed.

But if she ran the resistance during Final Crisis why would she still think they'd choose Hal over her? Not to mention she'd have Oracle and all Oracle's contacts.

This is only unacceptable if you think that Superheros can't ego trip, get P.O.d and be @#$%ty to each other.

That kind of stuff is what makes these characters interesting.

You can make them interesting and have them conflict without betraying their characters. It's been done successfully before and within the League. This is just lazy, shortcut writing.

[Fatguy]

And we've hit rock bottom...

We're never very far from it on the internet.

[WorstThingUS]

We're never very far from it on the internet.

Clearly, some of us are looking to tunnel.

[CBikle]

And we've hit rock bottom...

Nah, I was serious. It wouldn't be directly presented that way in the story of course.

[CBikle]

Its not like she's leaving Earth undefended.

Dinah simply decided she was not going to try to run a League in competition with Hal. Considering that she knows for a fact that that several Leaguers would probably respect Hal's authority more than hers. And considering she ran the resistance during Final Crisis, she's entitled to be pissed.

This is only unacceptable if you think that Superheros can't ego trip, get P.O.d and be @#$%ty to each other.

That kind of stuff is what makes these characters interesting.

Exactly.

Also the story isn't finished yet.

[CBikle]

You can make them interesting and have them conflict without betraying their characters.

The way that Green Lantern, Green Arrow and Black Canary were/are being presented in JLA isn't at all inconsistent with how the characters have been presented over the years.

GA/GL have always been shown to be somewhat headstrong and reckless(but very competent) and Black Canary's personality has been in flux since she was brought back in the early 70's. The strong, independent BC has only been around since the BoP series started and Dixon/Simone's version may be seen by some as the definitive one, but it wasn't always that way.

[WorstThingUS]

Nah, I was serious. It wouldn't be directly presented that way in the story of course.

That you're serious only makes it sadder.

[CBikle]

That you're serious only makes it sadder.

Dude, you buy lots of comics you seem to dislike, just so you can bitch about them
on message boards.

Nothing sadder than that.

[the Hornet]

So is this the third time when the league consisted of non-A listers (well I consider the Green Lantern name A list anyway no matter who it is) ?The first time was the Detroit team and the second was Giffen's JL/JLI. Detroit was hated but JLI was awesome. Wonder how it will go now?

This team does not have Giffen type storyline that made it light but at the same time it does not feature underpowered members like the Detroit team.

Another thing that would make this team cool is if they finally put in Dick Grayson as a full member. Come on, DC would not put him in because Bats was there well what is the excuse now? He would be a good leader or at least be Dinah's confidant seeing as they have a friendly history via Oracle.

[Sandy Hausler]

So is this the third time when the league consisted of non-A listers (well I consider the Green Lantern name A list anyway no matter who it is) ?The first time was the Detroit team and the second was Giffen's JL/JLI. Detroit was hated but JLI was awesome. Wonder how it will go now?

This team does not have Giffen type storyline that made it light but at the same time it does not feature underpowered members like the Detroit team.

Another thing that would make this team cool is if they finally put in Dick Grayson as a full member. Come on, DC would not put him in because Bats was there well what is the excuse now? He would be a good leader or at least be Dinah's confidant seeing as they have a friendly history via Oracle.

Wasn't Dick already a full member? I thought he even led the team for a short time.

Sandy Hausler

[pariah-1972]

I think it's not going to be well received mostly because all the crossovers and editorial interference has really hurt the team and everyone has said so.


I personally liked the Detroit league and it was very good until the very end were it was obvious the writing as on the wall so they just decided to kill all the characters off save for Gypsy (why her i don't know)

I also think one of the things that hampers the Justice League is that most people expect it to have the a-listers and they lose there patience if they aren't in here even tho they all have there own books.

[Doc Goblin]

Personally, I'm cool with the team being mostly B- and C-listers. As long as they're written well, it won't put a dent in my enjoyment factor. But I can understand the problem with it.

I think it's Robinson's Justice League that is hurting the main book the most. The Justice League can't go without the main Trinity. Having it replaced in the group by a Dinah, Hal and Ollie trinity would work fine. And that would be totally possible if not for this limited series coming out.

[WorstThingUS]

Dude, you buy lots of comics you seem to dislike, just so you can bitch about them
on message boards.

Nothing sadder than that.

...as opposed to someone who thinks it's acceptable to blame something he doesn't understand about a woman on PMS? You're sad in life.

[CBikle]

...as opposed to someone who thinks it's acceptable to blame something he doesn't understand about a woman on PMS? You're sad in life.

I suspect you have little to no experience with women, but oddly enough, I do think you have experience with PMS.

[the Hornet]

Wasn't Dick already a full member? I thought he even led the team for a short time.

Sandy Hausler

yes he was but would like to see it again and for a longer time.....the last time was to short and it was more of a Kyle Rayner story anyway.

[pariah-1972]

It doesn't really make sense that Dick wouldn't be a long standing member of the League considering at least two of his Teen Titans members have graduated to the big time and Dick is much more well liked and is probably a much better leader than Bats.
But then again we wouldn't have Green Lantern and Ollie constantly bickering with Nightwing like we do with Bats which i somehow enjoy .

[WorstThingUS]

I suspect you have little to no experience with women, but oddly enough, I do think you have experience with PMS.

Yeah, because they just love is being suggest that behavior you don't understand is the result of PMS. I doubt you've even met one to suggest that. I'm torn between wishing you never inflict your idiocy on a woman to wanting you to express this stupidity and having your ass kicked.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Which is a shame because the JLU version is sooo much better and a much more interesting character. GL supposedly "stars" Hal and John but how often does John have a solo feature? John also doesn't seem to have much personality between "mad" and "quiet"

Huh? When has anyone at DC said that John Stewart is the star of the GL monthly? Hal Jordan is the star of the book. Geoff Johns said as much when the series started. Since John is Hal's partner, he clearly plays an important role in the comic on occasion, but nobody from DC ever said that John was going to be Hal's co-star as far as I know.

[Fatguy]

Personally, I'm cool with the team being mostly B- and C-listers.

Me too, but THESE C-listers? Not for me. Right now Outsiders is working the B and C listers much better.

[celticguy]

Me too, but THESE C-listers? Not for me. Right now Outsiders is working the B and C listers much better.


it is too small a team right now but that is becasue they are working towards adding Icon and one or two others. There is noone on the team now I would want removed I just thin the they need a little more personality.

[the Hornet]

Huh? When has anyone at DC said that John Stewart is the star of the GL monthly? Hal Jordan is the star of the book. Geoff Johns said as much when the series started. Since John is Hal's partner, he clearly plays an important role in the comic on occasion, but nobody from DC ever said that John was going to be Hal's co-star as far as I know.

That is right. GL is Hal's book. John is more of a supporting actor. While Kyle and Guy both are the co-stars of GLC. John's true spotlight area in the JLA I guess, which he shares with others as well. But what I mean is, JLA is more of an authority on John's development than the GL series so far.

[_OM_]

Yeah, because they just love is being suggest that behavior you don't understand is the result of PMS. I doubt you've even met one to suggest that. I'm torn between wishing you never inflict your idiocy on a woman to wanting you to express this stupidity and having your ass kicked.

...Yes, but are you experiencing Pre, Post or Permanent? :biggrin:

[ducks behind VERY large rock]