View Full Version : Is Kingdom Come Good?
El_Travieso_805
04-22-2009, 05:48 PM
I was thinking of buying it, but is it any good, the story, art. Or what other JLA story's do you consider CLASSICS!!!
Flash's Lightning
04-22-2009, 06:01 PM
It's not essentially a JLA story. If anything, it's a Superman story, but even that is loose. It's about the DCU in total, and is one of the best stories I've ever read.
It's the story of eroding morals, how society decays a little bit each year. And how the greatest among us eventually couldn't deal with that decay, and went into hiding before he was reminded of what he really was.
It is also the story of a final battle of "good" and "evil", and how it all came down to the decision of one man whether the "meek" would inherit the earth or not.
It's a very powerful story, and well written.
Robert318
04-22-2009, 06:06 PM
Absolutely one of my favorite comic stories of all time. I usually tend to stay away from possible future stuff, but this is simply awesome. It introduces a ton of new characters, though most aren't given much development because the cast is so large. Mainly it takes the main heroes of today and brings then several years into the future to glimpse how they have been changed by the world. I takes Spidey's "with great power, comes great responsibility" line and applies it to the entire Earth and super human's place in it. Definitely worth buying.
Oh! And Alex Ross' art is BEAUTIFUL!
Babylon23
04-22-2009, 06:11 PM
I enjoyed it, but didn't find it to be quite the masterpiece that others see it as. It's a solid story with some excellent characterisation, especially of Superman. Ross' artwork is very good.
edhopper
04-22-2009, 06:25 PM
Definitely worth it. You shouldn't even debate whether to read it.
One of my all time favorite JLA books is the Ross/Kreuger/Braithwaithe JUSTICE. A great read with spectacular art.
I read it as one of my first DC stories. I loved the art and really enjoyed the story.
I reread this past week, with a much greater understanding of the DCU--I fucking love it.
Hawkman
04-22-2009, 08:34 PM
I enjoyed it, but didn't find it to be quite the masterpiece that others see it as. It's a solid story with some excellent characterisation, especially of Superman. Ross' artwork is very good.
This pretty much sums up my feelings on it, but with one caveat. While I won't argue that Ross' artwork is good--because it is--I've never been a fan of it. That being the case, I actually think I would have enjoyed Kingdom Come more had he not drawn the thing. I feel the same way about Justice. Of course, if you like Ross' work going in, obviously it will only add to your enjoyment of the story.
carabas
04-23-2009, 12:27 AM
It's got an old Superman, Power Girl/Woman, Alan Scott as Green Lantern, a Flash of uncertain identity, butwith Jay Garrick's helmet...
I'd say it's a JSA story rather than a JLA one.
Babylon23
04-23-2009, 12:31 AM
It's got an old Superman, Power Girl/Woman, Alan Scott as Green Lantern, a Flash of uncertain identity, butwith Jay Garrick's helmet...
I'd say it's a JSA story rather than a JLA one.
The central characters though are Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and Gog. I think that makes it more of a JLA story, although I'd agrue that it's primarily just a Superman story.
Kingdom Come is so good that CBR was originally founded as a message board about the book.
Buried Alien
04-23-2009, 12:41 AM
It was probably DC Comics' best product of the 1990s, and I think it was a turning point in ending the "grim and gritty," Image-dominated phase of that decade's comics. I think KINGDOM COME signalled the beginning of the rejection of that in favor of more traditional superhero comics values.
Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
jchichuv
04-23-2009, 12:57 AM
its a great story and a great book you should really buy it. Kingdom Come its what made me read comics, the art its absolutely amazing, its a must buy story
carabas
04-23-2009, 02:09 AM
The central characters though are Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and Gog.Earth 2 Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman used to be in the JSA way back when. Note that Kingdom Come Superman, costume aside, is a dead ringer for Earth 2 Superman.
If you enjoy superhero comics in the slightest, you will enjoy Kingdom Come.
Like the others, I suggest you pick up one of the trade collections asap. :smile:
T Hedge Coke
04-23-2009, 04:27 AM
Kingdom Come was good. The Kingdom is better.
Golden_Guardian
04-23-2009, 04:41 AM
No Kingdom Come was not good...
It was FANTASTIC!
Loved the story and the art-work was out of this world.
MythicBrawn
04-23-2009, 05:34 AM
Kingdome Come was excellent. Every attempt by DC to exploit it just hasn't been good. Kingdom was pointless and the JSA run where KC-Supes appears was really boring.
Pahara
04-23-2009, 05:45 AM
I think Kingdom Come is a really good read. Not an easy read like most comic books though. Kind of heavy on the details for me. Plus if you're a fan of Alex Ross then you'd probably love this.
dancj
04-23-2009, 05:47 AM
Kingdom Come was good. The Kingdom is better.
That's an opinion I've never seen before.
Kingdom Come is good, but not brilliant. The Kingdom has very good parts, weaker parts and a downright terrible ending. Overall I still think it's worth a read.
Phantom Druid
04-23-2009, 06:25 AM
Kingdom Come is a must read. The fight with Supes and Captain Marvel is especially classic.
Shatagni
04-23-2009, 10:37 PM
Kingdom Come is a must read. The fight with Supes and Captain Marvel is especially classic.
I don't get why people say this fight is so "classic". I all remember was
1. Capt. Marvel appears grinning like car salesman
2. A silhouetted of Supes and Marvel charging at eachother with their fists...which
never really connects.
3. Marvel hitting Superman with his lightning attack
4. Superman reversing lightning attack on Marvel, turning him back to Billy. Fight
ends
I only thing I found epic about it was the fact that it was Superman vs. Capt. Marvel.
But anyway, I recommend picking it up or at least renting from a library.
It's a little too biblical for my tastes and some of it's elements irk me (Like Waid's constant need to pair up Supes and Wondy for no apparent reason) but it's got Alex Ross's artwork and and story got a huge epic scale.
Great read, but not perfect.
Kingdom Come was good. The Kingdom is better.
No, no it isn't.
Not even slightly close.
Tony Bang
04-23-2009, 11:00 PM
I enjoyed it when the first time I went through it, but when I reread it recently the quality dropped by a large margin.
.......or at least renting from a library.
That's one rough library you've got there. :smile:
F1uke
04-23-2009, 11:23 PM
Very good. I'd definitely recommend it
T Hedge Coke
04-24-2009, 02:58 AM
No, no it isn't.
Not even slightly close.
Matter of opinion, but I thought The Kingdom was one of the most optimistic and unabashedly escape/rescue-toned superhero comics of the last twenty years. Death, time, reality, even continuity and story can't trap Superman.
Compared to what happened with classic-Supes in Infinite Crisis, The Kingdom looks even better.
Plus, great creators all over it, a myriad of styles, and less cheesy moralizing about the difference between human and superhuman, socially and individually (primarily because there isn't any).
And, seriously, hypertime is a great and inviolable concept. Tributaries of truth and perspective that sometimes remerge or reflect; your lies become you and so do your hopes. Good stuff.
pariah-1972
04-24-2009, 03:37 AM
I think it's one of the great DC graphic novels ever and i think it says a lot about Super-hero Values and is sort of a an anti- grim and gritty theme kind of hits home for me in a lot of ways.
The art is also beautiful tho Alex Ross's pseudo realistic painted artwork took a while for me to adjust to.
bringthenoise
04-24-2009, 04:01 AM
I enjoyed reading it, but I don't really think of it as a "classic".
dancj
04-24-2009, 05:44 AM
And, seriously, hypertime is a great and inviolable concept. Tributaries of truth and perspective that sometimes remerge or reflect; your lies become you and so do your hopes. Good stuff.
I don't have a problem with Hypertime, but the way it was shoehorned into the end of the Kingdom was clumsy and forced.
Redrumbin
04-24-2009, 10:50 AM
Kingdom Come is awesome, I love Ross' Art. To me, MARVELS and Kingdom Come are must reads.
Karl O'Neill
04-24-2009, 10:56 AM
Is kingdom come good? Does the bear poo in the woods?
No....its very boring and I hate that so many love it. The art is soulless and the writing is the worst kind of melodrama.
CBikle
04-25-2009, 11:04 AM
The art was fantastic, the story itself was blah.
My only real problem with Alex Ross was that his art is so good, it tends to launch the careers of boring writers like Waid & Busiek.
Buried Alien
04-25-2009, 11:19 AM
The art was fantastic, the story itself was blah.
My only real problem with Alex Ross was that his art is so good, it tends to launch the careers of boring writers like Waid & Busiek.
Both Mark Waid and Kurt Busiek were well established as writers before either worked with Alex Ross.
Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
CBikle
04-25-2009, 11:22 AM
Both Mark Waid and Kurt Busiek were well established as writers before either worked with Alex Ross.
Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
Not really.
Karl O'Neill
04-25-2009, 11:30 AM
No....its very boring and I hate that so many love it. The art is soulless and the writing is the worst kind of melodrama.
what's a good non boring story to you?
what's a good non boring story to you?
DKR, DKSA, RIP, ASBATBW
Johns Green Lantern, Action Comics
Green Lantern Corp
Waid and Perez on Brave and the Bold
All Star Superman, We3, Hush, For Tomorrow,
I just didn't like the whole tone of Kingdom Come. I didn't like the religious/faith aspects of the story.
Black Manta
04-25-2009, 12:27 PM
If you're up to it I recommend reading the novel version. It did make a few things clearer for me.
I hate that so many love it.
you 'hate' that others love it? :confused:
ease up man, it may save you a heart attack in the future. :wink:
I didn't like the religious/faith aspects of the story.so, you're a Batman fan and obviously anti-religious. That's what your problem with the story was, not that it was bad. right?
americocaine
04-25-2009, 12:54 PM
I liked it and really wish they follow this up with a true ongoing monthly and not just a limited storyline like Thy Kingdom Come. Even though some (most?) people didn't like the JSA arc, I thought it was good and probably the best thing to come out in the past year.
They can definitely find someone with a similar style in the vein of Braithwaite and Ross. Johns must be the writer and not Busiek or Morrisson. There are tons of artists out there I'd imagine. Problem would be deadlines and seeing how some painted artists take their time and just leads to more delays.
Kurt Busiek
04-25-2009, 01:37 PM
Both Mark Waid and Kurt Busiek were well established as writers before either worked with Alex Ross.
Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
Mark was, for sure. FLASH and CAPTAIN AMERICA had made him a very well-respected name, and that's part of the reason he got the job. He was known to be a very strong writer who was particularly strong on DC characters.
I'd been around for a decade or so, but still scuffling -- staying busy enough to pay the mortgage, but not a "name" on anyone's radar.
MARVELS didn't launch my career, but it was my breakthrough project. And Alex's, for that matter. Mark's breakthrough project was FLASH, and "The Return of Barry Allen." KINGDOM COME was a chance at a star turn, elevating an already-successful-and-building career.
kdb
Rev. Calibos
04-25-2009, 01:54 PM
It was probably DC Comics' best product of the 1990s, and I think it was a turning point in ending the "grim and gritty," Image-dominated phase of that decade's comics. I think KINGDOM COME signalled the beginning of the rejection of that in favor of more traditional superhero comics values.
Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
I agree wholeheartedly.
To me Kingdom Come was a kind of middle finger to the sort of comics that were popular at the time. The die-cut, embossed covered comics that may have looked great on the outside but had little substance within.
I thought it was hilarious that they designed Magog to look like the sort of characters they hated, the Liefeld, Cable-esque characters that littered the landscape at the time.
I was thinking of buying it, but is it any good, the story, art.
...The art is quite possibly the zenith(*) of comic book art for the 1990's, if not for the entirety of the 20th Century, especially insofar as realism goes. The story is arguably neck-and-neck with Watchmen along the same values of quality, and has been noted as being Mark Waid's career best. If only his works of the past few years were even 1/100th as good, he probably wouldn't be everyone's whipping boy over the Legion and Flash debacles.
...But should you buy it? Yes, I think it's safe to say that you need to buy it *and* read it. Don't just borrow a copy or check it out from the library. Unlike his "Threeboot" upchucking, Waid deserves the royalty checks for this one. And that goes double for Alex Ross.
A bit of a caveat: the hardback version added four extra story pages in addition to the "behind the scenes" text/sketch pages, that filled in the biggest gap that fans complained about, that being Waid's initially leaving out a scene showing the status of Jack Kirby's Fourth World characters in the future of Kingdom Come. I'm not sure if the trade paperbacks have these pages in them, and since I only have a copy of the Graffitti Hardback I'll leave it up to someone who has a TPB version to confirm/deny these pages are included. Their omission doesn't affect the story drastically, but without them it's sort of like going on a tour through the Batcave and not being given at least a quick glance at the Giant Penny and the T-Rex.
(*) A term not to be confused with the brand of television, which was actually the crappiest line of TVs next to Amana and Philco. But I digress...
If you're up to it I recommend reading the novel version. It did make a few things clearer for me.
...I second this as well. Elliot S! Maggin did one hell of a job adapting the comic into prose, and did so without making the mistake of "camping up" certain aspects as he did with Luthor in his Superman novels.
T Hedge Coke
04-25-2009, 11:20 PM
...The art is quite possibly the zenith(*) of comic book art for the 1990's, if not for the entirety of the 20th Century, especially insofar as realism goes. The story is arguably neck-and-neck with Watchmen along the same values of quality, and has been noted as being Mark Waid's career best. If only his works of the past few years were even 1/100th as good, he probably wouldn't be everyone's whipping boy over the Legion and Flash debacles.
...But should you buy it? Yes, I think it's safe to say that you need to buy it *and* read it. Don't just borrow a copy or check it out from the library. Unlike his "Threeboot" upchucking, Waid deserves the royalty checks for this one. And that goes double for Alex Ross.
Y'know, I thought I was done with this thread, but given the hyperbole above... I don't think this is Waid's best (Captain America was better before this, and Legion long after), and the art doesn't do much for me outside of a technical level and a few really choice pages. Photorealism is a technique, it isn't the end-all of art or representation. Art isn't about mimicry, but communication. Parts of Kingdom Come simply, visually, communicate nothing of significance to me. Nine tenths of the comics artists working today can do photorealism or approximate, but it doesn't always do the job better than another technique, hence the range from cartooning to chiaroscuro and beyond.
So, I think I'm going to have to suggest you check out either Waid's first run on Captain America (all collected in one volume), with excellent Ron Garney artwork, or his Legion that began in '04 with very cool pencils by Barry Kitson. Far more aggressive, energetic, and emotional works, far more aware of themselves than the gushy things-were-better-in-my-day status quo ante vibe of Kingdom Come. Kingdom Come ain't bad, but it is not the zenith of visuals in the medium or the best from even either of the main creative contributors.
Whichever - whatever - you end up with, I hope you enjoy it, though.
AllisterH
04-26-2009, 02:13 AM
Did a disservice to wonder woman and the plot itself was just plain stupid even for comics...
pariah-1972
04-26-2009, 02:26 AM
I didn't really care for it at first but after reading the incorperation of some of the mythos from KC into the Justice Society arc i decided to read it again.
Claret & Blue
04-26-2009, 02:46 AM
I read it quite recently and it is a quality piece of work , worth buying .
You will be able to find slightly cheaper copies on ebay , you have to read it as when I started reading comics again around 4 years ago after a hiatus of 10 years , i couldnt understand what the hell Kingdom Come superman & Kingdom come universe was .
Its an excellent standalone story , but since it was so good its been continuoulsy been bleeding into the DC Universe proper in Geoff Johns JSA and in Superman.
So its a must read.
paulski
04-26-2009, 04:12 AM
If you enjoy superhero comics in the slightest, you will enjoy Kingdom Come.
This guy stole my thunder - I was going to post something extremely similar. :smile:
paulski
04-26-2009, 04:19 AM
That's an opinion I've never seen before.
Me neither. Overall, I felt The Kingdom was basically just (how do the kids put it?) an "epic fail". Some interesting ideas but it just collapsed towards the end. And, from memory, didn't make a lot of sense.
T Hedge Coke
04-26-2009, 04:44 AM
Some interesting ideas but it just collapsed towards the end.
Wow, nobody likes that wink but me, or what? Superman sees you. And it's okeh.
And, from memory, didn't make a lot of sense.
Be interested to know what didn't make sense. Seemed pretty securely plotted to me (I haven't reread in awhile, to be fair).
Avenger08
04-26-2009, 08:58 AM
The Kingdom Come was the first big book (i know that sounds like im four but i wouldnt exactly want to call it a graphic novel) and it is definetly one of my favorites. Artwork, amazing. Like i still wonder how long it took them to do all of it. I would definetly say it is a good choice to buy. It also helps you understand the JSA series alot more because... well if u havent read that either i wont tell you but i didnt read KC until after the first flashback and it was very confusing until i read the book.
Pksoze
04-26-2009, 09:37 AM
Kingdom Come is very good. It's not at the level of Watchmen or Gaiman's great Sandman stories. It does have some of the most beautiful art ever, and truly magnificent scenes particularly in issue two.
Shatagni
04-26-2009, 11:22 AM
Please, Please, PLEASE do not associate Kingdom Come with that JSA arc!
Trust me, it will ruin it for you. "Thy Kingdom Come" was so ridiculously overhyped and the conclusion was so weak that it actually butchered the original Graphic novel and conviced me drop JSA, a book that I actually liked!
However, I'll admit, The Superman special is pretty good enough to stand on it's own...if your willing ignore the plot thread and focus on Superman's character.
AllisterH
04-26-2009, 12:11 PM
Be interested to know what didn't make sense. Seemed pretty securely plotted to me (I haven't reread in awhile, to be fair).
Of course it makes no sense. KC was more of a "see, those new heroes suck" of course totally ignoring that the rules for villains changed.
Let's start with WHY Superman leaves. He's pissed that a court found Magog not guilty for killing the joker and becomes disenchanted with the people.
so wait why the hell wasn't he disenchanted that the people couldn't keep the joker locked up in bars to begin with...
Why the hell was the joker alive in the first place though? Hello comic book writers, insanity is NOT a "I can't be prosecuted" defence. Insanity is a defence agreed upon by the people of the state/country that can be changed.
Note when Reagan got shot and his shooter was judged insane the laws concerning insanity were changed.
I personally also DESPISE the Superman and WW pairing. Throughout the whole of KC we got the sense of how important Lois was to Superman and what she meant to him...so what the hell was Diana doing in the meantime. Was she still a virgin just waiting on Superman to spread those Amazon legs?
T Hedge Coke
04-26-2009, 02:04 PM
Of course it makes no sense. KC was more of a "see, those new heroes suck" of course totally ignoring that the rules for villains changed.
Yeah, I'd agree much of the KC set up doesn't make a whole lot of satisfactory sense, but the poster (and I should have bracketed some clarification into their quote, so that's on my head) was referring to The Kingdom not making sense. The thing where the big bad goes back in time day by backwards day, killing Superman over and over again, and generally making a mockery of the DC hardline no-alternate-realities myth of the moment. Thus, causing a series of oneshots secured by a two-parter, looking at reality and continuity from different angles before we learn Superman can maybe sometimes see the panel barriers and the fourth wall (but, still has things to do within those barriers).
Zero Hunter
04-26-2009, 02:34 PM
Please, Please, PLEASE do not associate Kingdom Come with that JSA arc!
Trust me, it will ruin it for you. "Thy Kingdom Come" was so ridiculously overhyped and the conclusion was so weak that it actually butchered the original Graphic novel and conviced me drop JSA, a book that I actually liked!
However, I'll admit, The Superman special is pretty good enough to stand on it's own...if your willing ignore the plot thread and focus on Superman's character.
It had its flaws but overall "Thy Kingdom Come" was not that bad. Those last pages with Superman back on his own Earth and us seeing how the timeline played out was fantastic. That last shot of Superman as an old man 1000 years in the future standing on the street with a smile on his face watching the Legion of Super Heroes fly over was my favorite part of the whole thing. It is good enough that it should be included in any future reprints of Kingdom Come in my eyes.
paulski
04-26-2009, 05:14 PM
Be interested to know what didn't make sense. Seemed pretty securely plotted to me (I haven't reread in awhile, to be fair).
I'll need to go back and refresh my memory on the series. I just seem to recall being left with a feeling of "Huh?".
Certainly nothing like to the extent of Final Crisis, mind you... :wink:
dancj
04-27-2009, 05:32 AM
...The art is quite possibly the zenith(*) of comic book art for the 1990's, if not for the entirety of the 20th Century, especially insofar as realism goes. The story is arguably neck-and-neck with Watchmen along the same values of quality, and has been noted as being Mark Waid's career best.
It's a decent story, but really neither the story nor the art is that good.
I'm not sure if the trade paperbacks have these pages in them
They do
Shatagni
04-27-2009, 07:09 AM
It had its flaws but overall "Thy Kingdom Come" was not that bad. Those last pages with Superman back on his own Earth and us seeing how the timeline played out was fantastic.
That was the worse part! The story went through so much build-up with the JSA factioning among themselves, the moral issues with Gog and Superman witnessing the same events from his world replay in front of him and wondering whether he could prevent it.
Sure, it was cool to the ending of KC replayed, yay for that. And the last couple of pages were nice. But you know what the problem is? It has absolutely nothing to do with the storyline!
If the events of KC was just going to replay then what was the point of Superman staying with the JSA in the first place? and how the heck was it supposed to affect the decisions he made in KC? Am I suppose to think "Oh! It wasn't Norman McCay who restored Superman's faith in humanity, it was the adventure he had with the JSA from another earth! Silly me!" All that build-up turned out to be just another sales gimmick!
I like Geoff Jones, I like Alex Ross and I really wanted to like this storyline but I don't think they ever dropped a ball heavier than this :frown:
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