Build A Better DCU

[Will44]

Does anyone out here think that the current DCU is floundering a bit?

I'm sure each of us has a couple of stories we're enjoying, Besides Battle for the Cowl and Blackest Night, not much DC is putting out interests me. I can't say I'm excited for the brand across the board.

If people feel the same way, let's put our money where our mouth is and see if we can't come up with ways to fix a broken franchise.

I'll tell you how I'd fix Green Arrow:
Talk about a wanna be Batman. The man even has a collection of kid sidekicks! I would really slim down the cast of characters. Ollie and Dinah are the main characters. Send the new speedy off to school and Ollie's son back to Tibet or off on some world martial arts training tour or something.

Then I'd turn the book into a pulp, noir type story. It would be very gritty. Dinah would need a new costume, but nothing drastic. Maybe just a hooded cloak instead of a leather jacket. She and Ollie would take down drug dealers and back alley pimps/prostitutes. They'd track down major crime syndicates. They'd put an end to human trafficking rings. Maybe they'd go after kidnappers and missing persons.

Thoughts? Other franchises you'd re-work?

[BurningStarIV]

I think Wonder Woman's side of the DCU has been getting progressively better and better since Gail Simone took over. I just wish they'd do more like the Superman/Batman stories and have more than one title. I mean, Batman had Batman and Detective, not to mention the other spin-offs and what nots. Superman had Superman and Action comics. Where's Wonder Woman's bonus title? And I'd like to see Donna Troy and Cassie get more attention in the Wonder Woman portion of the world, because all the Titans titles just don't interest me.

Just a thought from an entirely biased Wonder Woman fan.

[BeastieRunner]

Publishing wise, events belong in core books.

For example, Final Crisis should have been in JLA. Blackest Night: Green Lantern & Green Lantern Corps!

Events are the single reason why I drop titles in the last 10 years of collecting. I'll be dropping the Green Lantern titles once Blackest Night starts (even though it sounds awesome).

Also, less events. I've bought less and less comics when more and more events have come out. Looking at the overall sales number in general, I would assume more people are dropping the titles for similar reasons (burnout, "change", money, etc.) ...

Creative wise, I want to see more passing of the torch and some more legacy characters take center stage. And it sticks.

[Ilash]

Well, for a start, there are some very promising stuff coming out in the coming months so things aren't quite so dire but here's some of the things I'd do.

More out of continuity comics. I wouldn't have returned Barry Allen to the DCU but would have given him his own All Star type book. Beyond that, more stuff like the forthcoming Wednesday Comics with creators coming on to work on their favourite characters without worrying about what else is going on in the mainstream DCU. JLA should probably also be an out of continuity comic because if this current version of it shows, the rest of the DCU tends to detract from the title.

Bring back the funny! Bring back the fun! Not everything has to be so damn doomy and gloomy. The dark side of superheroes has its place but it shouldn't permeate every book. The teenage characters especially should be a lot more lighthearted and energetic than the gloomy, whiney angsty garabge of something like Teen Titans has been.

On that note: Bring. Back. Impulse!!!!!!!!!!

And Young Justice!

I would pull back on the events - specifically editorially driven ones rather than creative ones. In fact, creatively, some new blood would be good (Marvel seem to be announcing new writers left and right - DC not so much) and I would have all creators a lot less bound to editorial than they seem to be now.

[CaptainCanada]

Where's Wonder Woman's bonus title?
She has trouble supporting one (and I say that as a Wondy fan).

Frankly, though, there are a lot of advantages to one title (such as allowing a single writer to focus on you character; look at Supes, Batman, or Wolverine, characters with so much going on there's no real concept of character development).

[Redrumbin]

I think that DC, like Marvel, should give us a break with all these events for a while. Don't get me wrong, I love them, but ionno, lately it's been a little overwhelming with the 594287947 tie ins and all...They should give us a year or two and concentrate on developing characters for a little while.

[BurningStarIV]

Publishing wise, events belong in core books.

For example, Final Crisis should have been in JLA. Blackest Night: Green Lantern & Green Lantern Corps!

Events are the single reason why I drop titles in the last 10 years of collecting. I'll be dropping the Green Lantern titles once Blackest Night starts (even though it sounds awesome).

Also, less events. I've bought less and less comics when more and more events have come out. Looking at the overall sales number in general, I would assume more people are dropping the titles for similar reasons (burnout, "change", money, etc.) ...

Creative wise, I want to see more passing of the torch and some more legacy characters take center stage. And it sticks.
I agree with this for the most part, but I think DC is A LOT better about their annoying massive events than Marvel is. Final Crisis for example: I only read the main title, and I feel like I understood enough of the story to not need to buy any of the 15 spin-offs (though I did get Rage of the Red Lanterns). Secret Invasion over at Marvel? I read the main series and still had no idea what the hell they were trying to accomplish with that. And I dropped at least four books because they were tie-ins and I didn't care.

While I agree that these events need to either stick in to just the main titles it effects, I do enjoy seeing how these events play out in other books and how they effect other characters. And, really, it just depends on how INTERESTING it is. Marvel's Secret Invasion sounded cool, at first, so I picked up the books that I wanted, ignored the multitude of others. But even the books I liked were just boring. Final Crisis was much the same. I kept the core books of both titles, but dropped everything else (went so far as to sell everything once I was done with them). I've been excited about Blackest Night since they first started hinting at it, so I'll certainly be picking up those titles. But, if it sucks (I hope not), I'll have no problem dropping all of the books.

As for the creative side, I'm not so in to passing the torch. Sure, if the writer/artist is sucking and the story isn't going any way, let's pass that off. But when an artist or especially a writer is doing a good job, I like to see where they can take those characters. Gail Simone for instance is doing some of the best work on Wonder Woman that's been done in years. I'd really like to see how she evolves the character, and I'd like to see her on the series for years to come.
Bring back the funny! Bring back the fun! Not everything has to be so damn doomy and gloomy. The dark side of superheroes has its place but it shouldn't permeate every book.
I've noticed that a lot, too. It seems like everything in DC these days is getting more and more depressing. But, again I go to Gail Simone's run of Wonder Woman. There are tons of times that I laugh out loud. And while Wonder Woman isn't meant to be a FUNNY character, she should have a SENSE of humor. Batman, Nightwing, Robin....all the issues I've read lately have had nothing funny in them. It's sad. I like to laugh while I'm being told a story sometimes.
She has trouble supporting one (and I say that as a Wondy fan).

Frankly, though, there are a lot of advantages to one title (such as allowing a single writer to focus on you character; look at Supes, Batman, or Wolverine, characters with so much going on there's no real concept of character development).
The fact that Wonder Woman has trouble supporting even her one title is very depressing to me, but I guess I get it. She's had a ton of writers over the years, but only a handful of good stories. And, you're right about the advantages of one title. My above statements about how glorious and wonderful Gail Simone's work on the series has been is an example of that.


Wow. Annoyingly long post from me. Sorry.

[Babylon23]

Personally, I'm enjoying a lot more DC books lately than I am Marvel books. Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman are all looking good, as is Green Lantern and JSA. I love the idea of Wednesday Comics and I'm looking forward to the backup features that are soon to appear in several book.

Here's a couple of things I'd change:

JLA: As the premier superteam in the DCU, the JLA should be dealing with the big picture. Their storylines should feel epic. They should be dealing with the threats that are so great that only by banding together can they hope to defeat them.

Flash: Personally I don't see the point in Barry Allen's return, but I'll wait and see how it all pans out before casting judgment.

I'd create new books for Hawkman and Aquaman.

[Abeja]

I rarely read Marvel anymore besides New Avengers or ASM. I started to read Brubakers run on DD and Cap but havent finished. Definitely like what is happening with Batman, GL/GLC, and Supes. Flash as long as Johns uses Cold somehow, but yeah it seems like his return is getting stirred in the pot with BN and death of Batman. DC is really blowing their load. Save some for later, damn.

[Hawk_fan]

I haven't been a big fan of the DCU since the 2nd half of Infinite Crisis. I'm not of fan of the changes that have been going on, especially the multiverse, Big Events and the "replacement" hero explosion. I think Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, JSofA and to a degree Wonder Woman and Secret Six have been good.

- The Captain Marvel Family need to return to their "glory days" and become more like the Power of Shazam series.

- We need a Hawkman: Rebirth and an the return of Aquaman. Both returned to their Silver Age origins.

[Pahara]

Honestly I think the DC Universe is doing fine. Battle for the Cowl, Blackest Night and New Krypton seem to be doing fine for me. That and some new Batman titles coming out in June. For DC, I'm just mainly disappointed with JLA, though I understand all the complications of that title. Sure do hope they bounce back in the near future.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I'd cancel all of DC's monthlies with the exception of Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Flash and JLA. Action Comics and Detective Comics would be upgraded to giant sized books with Supes & Bats cover features, along with two or three back-up features for characters like Supergirl, Nightwing, Robin, Batgirl and the rest.

Everything else would be released as maxi-series, mini-series and specials. This way, only the very best product gets put out there. Nothing gets rushed out the door just to hit some monthly schedule.

Big events are done once a year and kept as self-contained as they need to be, crossing over only if other creators involved want to play along and can bring something interesting to the table. These events only last three to six months, unless the story is reaaaally, reaaaaaaaally good and needs more space.

Every five years, some big event will press the giant continuity reboot button, leaving only the broad strokes of DCU history intact, freeing creators from any editorial or creative missteps that may have been made over the previous 5 year cycles.

[BeastieRunner]

I agree with this for the most part, but I think DC is A LOT better about their annoying massive events than Marvel is.



I agree. I'm just burned out from both, Marvel more so than DC.

[Abraxas]

I have made a honest effort to find something to like about Wonderwoman by Gail Simone, but I can't. There are no factors that I like about the series, IMO it was at it's best in the Golden Age and has progressivly got worse through the years. Manazons, the 300 take off was something I saw in a glance and decided then and there that WW is not for me.

The writing on books like Teen Titans, Titans, and JLA are sub par. With the calibur of characters and writers in the stable, this is the best someone can come up with? But the editors behind the scene are not blameless, they can't shirk their responsibilty for these lackluster titles.

Bring back Resurection Man, and H-E-R-O. What about the Charlton earth from 52? What about the Vertigo-lite earth? Follow throught people. I'd like to see Swampthing again, he can be good without having the stick him in Vertigo, you can put him in the mainline DCU. What about Shade the Changing Man? Or Prez? Give it a shot again.

[Gitaroo_Dude]

I'd dump all the Silver Age wankery like Flash: Rebirth, revive the All-Star line, and definitely build up a bigger stable of talent. On the top of my head DC has Rucka, Morrison, Robinson, Simone, Johns, Buisek and maybe a few others who can consistently put out good material. Marvel on the other hand is doing a much better job at bringing in new talent like Hickman, Fraction, Aaron (DC totally messed up by not using him) Joe Kelly and other alongside mainstays like Brubaker, Bendis, Millar, and others. And Marvel's art stable buries DC's. And when they do have top tier guys like the Kubert brothers, they don't seem to manage 'em well.

I guess I'd just dump the weird obsession they have for the past and try to create a more comprehensive All-Star line to bring in new readers. ASBAR and ASS are really the only DCU titles I read, until Rucka's TEC run starts.

[Phantom Druid]

- The Captain Marvel Family need to return to their "glory days" and become more like the Power of Shazam series.

- We need a Hawkman: Rebirth and an the return of Aquaman. Both returned to their Silver Age origins.


Word! :cool:

[Mainline]

Aggressively promote non-comic media even at a loss.
Snappy & entertaining dialogue.
Character driven stories; self-contained books with discernible story-arcs.
Events that either affirm the icons or change the status quo... not confuse the bejeezus out of new readers.
Stop cannibalizing fan base by revisiting the Silver Age, worshiping continuity, or pouring love into obscure characters which hijack your events and/or main books.
Fire... no, kill... Dan Didio.
Break the writer's club-house with new and hungry blood.

[KYLeo71]

I hope DC continues with it's Silver/Bronze lovefest (if you can call it that). Comic books are finally fun again and it's the reason I've been able to get back into them after 20 years.

[Mainline]

I hope DC continues with it's Silver/Bronze lovefest (if you can call it that). Comic books are finally fun again and it's the reason I've been able to get back into them after 20 years.
No offense and nothing personal, but while DC is catering to you, they're getting slaughtered by Marvel in market share.

Fun stories and original takes aren't mutually exclusive.
Winning back old fans is less productive than earning new ones.


I agree that dark wasn't the way to go. DC borrowed exactly the wrong aspect of the Marvel universe- whiny Superman and paranoid Batman as clear symptoms- rather than playing to the strength of their properties... and for a second there, it seemed like DCU was on the right track after IC/OYL... but they confused fun and nostalgia and we're right back in the thick of a dark DCU while choking on arcane Silver Age continuity inaccessible to new- and particularly, young- readers. I can't imagine any parent on the fence- the market you're trying to capture, not fanboys who've sworn their firstborn regardless- flipping through the red-skies, blood soaked, body strewn pages of Final Crisis and think "This is ideal for my child!"

Telling stories "the Marvel way" isn't just about dysfunction and rationalization... it has a lot to do with dynamic art, entertainment over continuity, energy over age. Marvel's a competitor with a different way of doing things, but they're in the same medium and winning 3:1, they have to be doing something right and it's fool-hearty to discount their methods simply because they're the competition.

[Phantom Druid]

No offense and nothing personal, but while DC is catering to you, they're getting slaughtered by Marvel in market share.


Well, roughly 30% of the market share isn't bad. It shows their IS a market for what they are doing, so someone might as well profit off of it. Marvel probably sells more because some of their characters are more immidiately accessable and lack depth (ala Hulk). So essentially, Marvel is more for noobs, and their are alot of noobs out there.

[chapattack]

Fire... no, kill... Dan Didio.



I think this is the key to making everything better...
and just think - if they removed his skin DC could print a limited edition of the Wednesday Comic on it... who wouldn't want to own that?

[Pahara]

Well, roughly 30% of the market share isn't bad. It shows their IS a market for what they are doing, so someone might as well profit off of it. Marvel probably sells more because some of their characters are more immidiately accessable and lack depth (ala Hulk). So essentially, Marvel is more for noobs, and their are alot of noobs out there.

Agree to this. In general, DC comics have more depth to them and require more focused reading for you to appreciate and understand. Not to bash Marvel though but maybe what makes Marvel more appealing to the general public is that their much more of an easy read.

[Phantom Druid]

Agree to this. In general, DC comics have more depth to them and require more focused reading for you to appreciate and understand. Not to bash Marvel though but maybe what makes Marvel more appealing to the general public is that their much more of an easy read.

Yeah, for the record I do enjoy some Marvel as well. I just got the Thor HC that covers 1-6. Pretty kick ass. I still stand by what I say though, only speaking in general of course. My collection is 90% DC

[KYLeo71]

Um.... doesn't Marvel put out something like a gagillion more books a month than DC? If DC puts out 10 and Marvel puts out 15 and each book sells only one copy, Marvel still has a larger market share. And just because Hannah Montana is a hit show and movie doesn't make Miley Cyrus Meryl Streep.

[Mainline]

Well, roughly 30% of the market share isn't bad. It shows their IS a market for what they are doing, so someone might as well profit off of it. Marvel probably sells more because some of their characters are more immidiately accessable and lack depth (ala Hulk). So essentially, Marvel is more for noobs, and their are alot of noobs out there.DC is a business first and foremost. Marvel's true profit is in their film production which market share is indicative of. Whereas the film profits serve only to make Marvel bigger and better... DC's gets siphoned off to Time-Warner at large. In a situation like that, you're risking a slow death cycle.

"Noobs" eventually turn into fans, the next generation of artists, and writers. Bigger market share, more internal profit, and a greater commitment to non-comic media means you attract more talent and hungrier talent who expect to be compensated better or have a chance to define the next non-comic media milestone. If you tenure your talent and don't expand your line, then you just cannibalize your fanbase.

The accessibility of the heroes is all about non-comic media... on paper, the X-Men are completely unworkable... a dozen different characters without origins, juggling codenames & birthnames & motivations & relations with a convoluted continuity including clones and cosmic forces... but put it on film and anybody can get it and get into it. By contrast, DC basically only puts out media for the World's Finest who need no introduction... it'd do them good to walk down the roster the way Marvel is. Hulk's accessible because Marvel committed to make him so, even at the cost of rebooting the franchise.

Artistic integrity is overrated in something that's a business.

[Mainline]

Um.... doesn't Marvel put out something like a gagillion more books a month than DC? If DC puts out 10 and Marvel puts out 15 and each book sells only one copy, Marvel still has a larger market share. And just because Hannah Montana is a hit show and movie doesn't make Miley Cyrus Meryl Streep.Only about 10-15 more if you count Vertigo. Just because you put out more books doesn't mean people must buy them. Plus, diversification and selection is a completely legitimate market strategy. It means more places to funnel and attract talent. It means a greater chance of a good fit and new readers. And it means a better bottom line. That gives you the flexibility to BE artistic.

The more ground DC gives up, the more Time-Warner tightens the reigns and the less creative DC can be. If you don't win at business your art will suffer.

[Ilash]

I hope DC continues with it's Silver/Bronze lovefest (if you can call it that). Comic books are finally fun again and it's the reason I've been able to get back into them after 20 years.

See, now this confuses me. Yes, DC are playing lip service to those older comics but the way they tackle them is often anything but "fun".

Take Identity Crisis: here's a book that revelled in its ties to the bronze age but the decision to mix this with some really repulsive, out-of-character ideas made it a book that was anything but fun.

Barry Allen in the first issue of Rebirth doesn't bare any resemblance to the Barry Allen from the Silver Age or his Silver-Age inspired modern appearances. This might change but, as a first impression, it left a bad taste in my mouth.

And then there are the teen characters. Bart Allen went from being one of the funniest, entertaining, unique superheroes ever and has over the last few years been turned into a dull bore. Teen Titans is now pretty much unreadable as a book about teenagers has become a book about badly done angst mixed in with absurd levels of violence and out of place sexuality.

There's loads of good stuff going on at DC now but saying that this is the first time they've been fun in a long time strikes me as being completely untrue. Mark Waid's DC work alone on the Flash, JLA: Year One etc. totally invalidates this theory.

[KYLeo71]

Maybe 'fun' was the wrong word to use. Perhaps I should've said 'recognizable' which, in turn, makes it fun for me. I was out of comics for about 20 years until this past December. That's not to say that I didn't want to get back into them (or even try), but every time I'd stop into a comic shop or something and checked out the books, I recognized absolutely nothing on the stands. Even characters that I knew, I no longer knew because they'd been changed so radically much. When I'd heard that the Legion (the real one) was finally back in continuity and was teaming up with the 2 other versions of the Legion (and once I realized you could order comic books online), I decided I needed to check it out. That pretty much led me to looking at the rest of the DCU line and seeing that I actually recognized characters and books and concepts for the first time in eons. As a result, I'm fully invested in pretty much the entire DCU for the first time in a VERY long time. Heck, I'm even planning on starting to read a few of the Bat-books beginning in June and I don't think I've read an issue of Batman since the original COIE. Not to mention the fact that I want to buy ever single issue and tie-in related to Blackest Night. I'm going to have to start budgeting about $100 a month just for comic books (all DC) because I want all of them. Once a week like clockwork, I'm 11 years old again, curled up on the couch, seeing what's going on in the DCU. For me, that's fun and I'm enjoying just about everything about the DCU at the moment.

[bongoes]

I personally think that they should decide if they are going to have the heroes be replaced by old sidekicks (like Bats) or kick the old sidekicks who were doing a fine job as the main hero to the side (like Wally and Barry). Either let the DCU age and have old sidekicks grow and become the main heroes or keep all the old heroes the same and let the sidekicks grow into their own identities like like Nightwing was.

[MisterBlah]

The biggest problem DC is facing right now is that they are essentially pandering to the base. They're releasing comics targeted specifically at very long-time readers, which is fine, but by doing so they're lowering the accessibility to new readers and risking alienating slightly less long-time readers.

Even when it's well done, the barriers to entry are getting mighty high. Continuity is one thing, but sequels to a decades old story (Crisis on Infinite Earths) and bringing back characters that have been gone since the 1980s takes it to a whole new level.

1) Get a handle on which characters are legacy characters and which are not.

As it is DC is undoing some of the torch-passing of the legacy characters by resurrecting Hal and Barry, while manipulating the non-legacy character of Batman to be succeeded by some Robin or another.

With Green Lantern it's a little decently palatable, yellow space bug notwithstanding, since it's supposed to be an entire corps of outer space policemen. With the Flash it's been far more convoluted, bringing back a character who has been dead since Regan was President.

With Robin it feels less like a legacy and more like a yo yo. Robin grew up. But then they wanted a kid sidekick still. Except people didn't like him, so he died . So they tried again and that took hold better. And now for good measure they brought back the dead one decades later and added a whole new, even younger, Robin. So now there's Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian.

2) Enough with the events, seriously. I understand the intention is to show consequences to these major events, but the end result is that it becomes overwhelming.

There has been an unbroken thread of crisis events for nearly five straight years now. Read that again. FIVE YEARS of Crisis tie-ins.

- Identity Crisis was June of 2004, feeding us into...
- Countdown to Infinite Crisis, composing four prequel-events:

- OMAC Project
- Day of Vengence
- Rann-Thanagar War
- Villians United

- Infinite Crisis itself and some tie-ins
- A full year series called 52 dealing with the aftermath of Infinite Crisis
- Another full year series called Countdown to Final Crisis that naturally had various tie-ins
- Final Crisis
- Aftermath including Flash: Rebirth which will probably have consequences


Batman R.I.P. was mixed in with Final Crisis so much that it was actually concluded there. The aftermath of that is in the Battle for the Cowl event, which starts its aftermath 5 full years after Identity Crisis.

That's a lot for a new reader to grasp, or even for anyone under the age of 40 who has only been buying new issues (thankfully there's the Internet and trade paperbacks).

[jv2k]

Step one: Get all the editors and writers together and figure out a set continuity. I don't just mean map out a characters history, I mean organizing books that are in continuity in some sort of chronicle order. So we'd have different batbooks from different eras rereleased so that people could read them from the beginning without any issue. If this means redoing a lot of early stories then so be it.

For most books this wouldn't be a big issue(like the flash for example, best way to catch up is read from issue 1 to current) but with books like batman and superman and the jla it makes things a bit easier.

Step 2:A viable and inexpensive online plan. First thing we'd do is make sure that we put as many books as possible in the previously established reading order. We'd also make sure that new releases are uploaded online immediately so that subscribers don't have to wait.

There would be 3 kinds of membership gold, silver, and bronze. Gold would allow unlimited access to the online library and it allows you to download as well as view books online, but would be the most expensive option. Silver would be a bit cheaper but does not allow you to download. Bronze would be a free membership but it would be limited to a few books(bronze may not require registration).

Step 3: So we've got a coherent continuity that and all the books are fully organized in a way that makes the universe accessible to new readers. On top of that we've got a new and affordable distribution system to allow access to the books. Our next step is to do something that you rarely see comics actually do, advertise! Mass advertising campaign that we can use to draw people into the books. Since we have a set order of essential reading we don't have to worry about scaring off new readers with continuity and since we have an easy and inexpensive way to access these issues we wont scare new readers away by draining their wallets.

Step 4: We need a better kids line. It would be something along the lines of the dcau(in fact it very well could be the dcau). This will draw in a demographic that is honestly the best suited towards drawing in, children.

Step 5: This might seem odd, but we need to allow more characters to grow, develop, and grow old. We could have a classic line(something along the lines of an ultimate universe) that we use to keep bruce wayne as batman and all that, but progression would help draw in new readers.

[earl]

DC at times seems way too reverential to things that are not worthy then way too flip then breaking things that might have had some value. They have revamped over and over so many classic characters, it is hard to tell and many modern readers probably have no idea from whence it came.

The drive for these event comics seems to me that the editorial staff has many of these things rough plotted out, then they just go find someone to make it happen. You would think this would lead to some kind of continuity , but it seems to more often lead to schizophrenic characterization and contradictions. It also leads to this photocopy kind of mentality where one good idea gets stretched out into multitudes of variations of the same idea: 4 Robins, 3 Legions, god knows how many colors of Lantern corps, 2 Titans teams, a different version of the Outsiders every so many months, etc. I only have four words to all of that; keep it simple stupid. They also need to not forget to use two other important words: THE END.

DC hasn't really been as popular overall as Marvel pretty much forever, but really I think they have probably created as many popular iconic super hero iconic stories. Why? They were often not afraid to do something very different and not have it all have to play service to the central dialog of their line. This has led to many runs on super hero books that probably sell as much in trades 20 years down the line as well as they ever did.