Fidel Castro vs. Fidel Ramos

[girder]

I thought up this match after I realized that both guys were famous for being seen with cigars. (Yet oddly enough I didn't find that many picture of them with cigars on Google. Well...at least not for Ramos.):tongue:

Any way, like the title says its the former Cuban president and infamous leader of communist revolution in Cuba:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/Cuba.FidelCastro.02.jpg/450px-Cuba.FidelCastro.02.jpg


Fidel Alejandro Castro Ruz (born August 13, 1926) is a Cuban revolutionary leader who was prime minister of Cuba from February 1959 to December 1976 and then president, premier until his resignation from the office in February 2008.

During studies at Havana University, he started a political career and was a recognized figure in politics.[3] His political life continued with nationalist critiques of Fulgencio Batista, and of United States political and corporate influence in Cuba. He gained an ardent, but limited, following and also drew the attention of the authorities.[4] He eventually led the failed 1953 attack on the Moncada Barracks, after which he was captured, tried, incarcerated and later released. He then traveled to Mexico[5][6] to organize and train for an assault on Batista's Cuba. He and his fellow revolutionaries left Mexico for the East of Cuba in December 1956.

Castro came to power as a result of the Cuban revolution that overthrew the dictatorship of Fulgencio Batista,[7] and shortly thereafter became Prime Minister of Cuba.[8] In 1965 he became First Secretary of the Communist Party of Cuba and led the transformation of Cuba into a one-party socialist republic. In 1976 he became President of the Council of State as well as of the Council of Ministers. He also held the supreme military rank of Comandante en Jefe ("Commander in Chief") of the Cuban armed forces.

versus the former Filipino president who fought communists:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Ramos_Pentagon.jpg


Fidel Valdez Ramos (born March 18, 1928), also known as FVR, was the 12th President of the Philippines. He succeeded Corazon Aquino and governed until 1998, when he was succeeded by Joseph Estrada. He was the first, and to date the only, non-Roman Catholic president of the Philippines.

During the authoritarian regime of President Ferdinand Marcos, Ramos was head of the Philippine Constabulary, implementing Marcos' declaration of martial law. In the 1986 People Power Revolution, Ramos defected from the government and was a key figure in the civilian demonstrations that forced Marcos into exile.

The first half of Ramos' six-year term as President was characterized by rapid economic growth and political stability in the country despite facing communist insurgencies and an Islamic separatist movement in Mindanao. On 1997, however, the Asian financial crisis slowed the economic growth.

a. In a one-on-one fight in their primes.
b. In a military campaign with Castro and his revolutionary guerrilla army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Castro#Cuban_Revolution) and Ramos and his Battalion Combat Team (http://www.geocities.com/peftok/20thbct.html). Equivalent size and strength.
c. They sit and talk. (Possibly debate.)

Links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Ramos
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Castro

[Deus]

Ramos is a pretty stand-up guy, and hands down the best Philippine president since the revolution. That said, I don't think he takes a single match (but will however dominate scenario 3, as his economic policies actually work).

[Gordon Smith]

Ramos is a pretty stand-up guy, and hands down the best Philippine president since the revolution. That said, I don't think he takes a single match (but will however dominate scenario 3, as his economic policies actually work).

To be honest, I haven't really heard much about him. The Edmonton media doesn't devote a lot of page space to coverage of events in the Philippines

[girder]

Ramos is a pretty stand-up guy, and hands down the best Philippine president since the revolution. That said, I don't think he takes a single match

I don't know, the guy's a pretty well-decorated military man:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Ramos#Military_career


He is currently the only man in Philippine history to have held every rank in the Philippine military from Second Lieutenant to Commander-in-Chief.

[Deus]

It must be noted though, Ramos' economic policies won't work now (not with the complete reshifting of the global economy, but unlike Castro, he also isn't an ideologue (which tends to limit policy making in general). Practical man, who does what works. Shame he only had one term (and spooked the Philippine public on his attempts to extend it, due to his previous affiliation with Marcos - it would have spared them one lame duck president and the current, more shady efforts at constitutional change).


He is currently the only man in Philippine history to have held every rank in the Philippine military from Second Lieutenant to Commander-in-Chief.

Given the record and capabilities of the Philippine military, that's not exactly a very impressive combat resume.

[girder]

Given the record and capabilities of the Philippine military, that's not exactly a very impressive combat resume.

I'll let the man speak for himself of that matter:


When belittled by the press regarding his combat record, Ramos responded with trademark sarcasm:

I fought the communists as part of the BCT's (Battalion Combat Team). I was battalion staff officer, company commander, task force commander, special forces group commander. I was in the Huk campaign, Korea, Vietnam. I led the advance party of the Phil-CAG and went to war zone Z--the so called Alligator's jaw where Max Soliven said "The Viet-Cong will eat you up." We were there as non-combat troops. Try to be a non-combat troop in a forward combat area. That is the toughest assignment.

In Korea, I was a platoon leader. Recon leader. Our job? To recon the front line--the no man's land. What did we do? We assaulted the Communist Chinese and wiped them all out! This Special Forces group we commanded in the Army in 1962 to 1965? That was the only combat unit remaining in the country. The rest were training as a Division set-up. We were in Luzon, Sulu, Marawi. Who was sent? Ramos. We raided the camp besieged by 400 rebels.

I was commander here and abroad. I never had an assignment abroad that was not combat. For thirty seven years, no soft jobs for Ramos. I went to West Point, Fort Benning, Fort Bragg. I was airborne, I was one of the first four Filipinos sent to the U.S. for special forces training. I was top constable and helped established the SAF (Special Action Force). I was Chief of Staff of the AFP and then President. So next time look at the a man's record. Huwag kayong sulat ng sulat (don't just write and write). You say I have no combat experience? I bet now, you are all sorry you asked.

On an additional note, the Philippine military has been known to do a lot with what meager resources it has at hand. (http://www.geocities.com/peftok/20thbct.html)

[girder]

In 1946, Ramos, barely months after enrolling in the Philippines' National University, joined the Philippine Military Academy as cadet and won a government scholarship to the United States Military Academy in West Point. He pursued further studies in engineering following his graduation from West Point in 1950, obtaining a Masters Degree in Civil Engineering in the University of Illinois, where he was also a government scholar in 1951. He is a licensed civil engineer in the Philippines, passing the board exams in 1953 and finishing in the top 10. In 1960, he topped Special Forces-Psy Operations-Airborne course at the United States Army Infantry School at Fort Benning.

Ramos also holds a Master's Degree in National Security Administration from the National Defense College of the Philippines and a Master's in Business Administration (MBA) from the Ateneo de Manila University.

Military Career

In his military career, Ramos rose from 2nd Lieutenant infantry platoon leader in the Philippine Expeditionary Force to Korea (PEFTOK) in 1952 during the Korean War to Chief of Staff of the Philippine Civil Action Group to Vietnam from 1966 to 1968. He is instrumental in founding the Philippine Army Special Forces, an elite paratroop unit skilled in community development as well as fighting communist insurgents.

Ramos, along with the Philippines' 20th Battalion Combat Team and his fellow West Point graduates of the 1950s, fought in the Korean War. Ramos was one of the heroes of the Battle of Hill Eerie,[1] where he led his platoon to sabotage the enemy in Hill Eerie. He was also present in the Vietnam War as a non-combat civil military engineer.

Ramos has received several military awards including the Philippine Legion of Honor, the Gold Cross, Philippine Military Merit Medal, the United States Legion of Merit, the French Legion of Honor and the U.S. Military Academy Distinguished Award.


Ramos served the Marcos regime for more than 20 years. He was head of the Philippine Constabulary, the country's national police force, and was one of Marcos' trusted advisers. He was a member of the infamous Rolex 12, an elite group of conspirators loyal to Marcos himself.

When it became apparent that Marcos rigged the 1986 snap Presidential Elections, Ramos, together with Marcos' Defense Minister Juan Ponce Enrile, changed allegiance and sided with opposition leader Corazon Aquino This marked the beginning of the People Power Revolution, and their move became the living symbol of military defiance against Marcos. The military followed his lead and swung the pendulum in Aquino's favor.

After Aquino assumed the Presidency, she appointed Ramos Chief of Staff of the Armed Forces of the Philippines, and later Secretary of National Defense. During this time, Ramos personally handled the military operations that crushed seven coup attempts against the Aquino government. After the coup, the National Unification Commission was created, and its chairman Haydee Yorac, together with Ramos, recommended to President Aquino the granting of amnesty to the rebel military officers of the Reform the Armed forces Movement (RAM) led by Col. Gregorio "Gringo" Honasan. After the amnesty was accepted, Ramos ordered the rebel soldiers to make 50 push ups as punishment.

...............

[cosmic eagle]

Ramos is a pretty stand-up guy, and hands down the best Philippine president since the revolution. That said, I don't think he takes a single match (but will however dominate scenario 3, as his economic policies actually work).

Truth be told, Castro's guereillas before receiving Soviet aid weren't exactly world class either...

[girder]

Truth be told, Castro's guereillas before receiving Soviet aid weren't exactly world class either...

I can't help but feel that the concepts of 'guerrilla' and 'world-class' are inherently mutually exclusive.

[cosmic eagle]

I can't help but feel that the concepts of 'guerrilla' and 'world-class' are inherently mutually exclusive.

And the Filipino group Ramos commanded were regular troops who actually did quite well in combat. I could actually see them winning.

[Radioactive Zombie]

Ramos is a pretty stand-up guy, and hands down the best Philippine president since the revolution. That said, I don't think he takes a single match (but will however dominate scenario 3, as his economic policies actually work).

Erm, Fidel's pretty beat up.

If not dead.

Sorry, media blackout.

[girder]

Erm, Fidel's pretty beat up.

If not dead.

Sorry, media blackout.

Ramos, on the other hand, can still run a marathon at age 80.*

http://www.fotothing.com/photos/519/519c608afb716f34379df4f71ab76991.jpg


*Photo taken February of 2008

[girder]

I can't help but feel that the concepts of 'guerrilla' and 'world-class' are inherently mutually exclusive.

With the exception of Special Forces groups trained to fight irregular warfare like the Green Berets.