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arp2008
04-16-2009, 02:18 PM
My fellow money squanderers, what grinds really your gears about these fifteen minutes of entertainment we love to dive into on a weekly basis? What is it about this books, their publishers, or the industry in general that gets under your skin to no end and would probably make the experience of being a comic a little more pleasent?

You know what really grind my gears, Hulk. Joeph Leobs massive **** you to all the respect, however litle it may be, the better and more respectable books of the medium have been earning using strong stories, compelling characters, and deep, powerful plots. JL Hulk is what is wrong with comics today. And to add injury to the massive middle finger he's pointing at engrossing books like Cap and DD and others, it $4! Who the **** is buying this to the point that it can be raised to $4? What is wrong with you! And that ladies( any girls in the house?) and gentlemen, is what grinds my gears.

How about you? What grinds your gears?

Fat Cobra
04-16-2009, 02:56 PM
The way action scenes are drawn now at days. Its like they are trying to go for photo realism or something.

CyberHubbs
04-16-2009, 02:59 PM
The fans.

The comics I like just fine.

Guest_1001
04-16-2009, 03:00 PM
Waiting times between issues. Oh, and I know I'm in the minority here, but there really isn't enough on my pull list.

Joe Acro
04-16-2009, 03:02 PM
How about you? What grinds your gears?
Two things:

1) Poor editing. I'm tired of mistakes in the art or lettering.

2) The lack of storytelling in many cases. More often than not, characters just don't look like they're saying what they're saying (just as an example).

RolandJP
04-16-2009, 03:05 PM
Comic Book elitists who hate fans.


I will make my money off of you.

But I hate you.


:GAG:

G. Wayne
04-16-2009, 03:16 PM
The fans.

The comics I like just fine.

Comics are too stagnant! The status quo never changes! We need something new and exciting!

...

What?! How DARE you
-kill character A
-give character B a new costume
-depower character C
-create character D
-give character E a new name.

Your work is a slap in the face (You want a phrase that should be banned for a while? There's a 4 word one for you.) to the fans! You hack!! Where do you get your ideas from?!

Grapeweasel
04-16-2009, 03:23 PM
People who think the creators are more important than the characters.

Especially since most of those people tend to be the creators themselves.

Rev. Calibos
04-16-2009, 03:42 PM
Variant covers.

A minor gear grind for me but it drives me nuts to see a title churn out dozens of variant covers throughout a year.

I steer clear of them and try to pick a cover that I enjoy the best.

For instance, the ASM Obama cover? F that, a choice between the Obama cover and a cover by Romita Sr.?

Romita Sr. wins all day.


It doesn't bother me THAT much as no one is forcing anyone to buy these things, but the variant covers are there for ONE reason, to nab those folks who have that collector's mentality and feel that they 'gotta catch 'em all' and end up 4 copies of the EXACT same comic.

Gitaroo_Dude
04-16-2009, 03:47 PM
Waiting times between issues. Oh, and I know I'm in the minority here, but there really isn't enough on my pull list.

Nah, I'm in the same boat. There's way more books I'd like to add to my list and read than I can afford.

artiepants
04-16-2009, 04:07 PM
just the $3.99 cover prices on books i want to read but am not. i figure Marvel's now losing out on 3-4 books per week i'd otherwise be getting.

Major continuity gaffes.

Fans that can't see past whatever there favorite 'era' of something is.

Comet Man
04-16-2009, 04:26 PM
The fans.

The comics I like just fine.


Comic Book elitists who hate fans.


I will make my money off of you.

But I hate you.


:GAG:


People who think the creators are more important than the characters.

Especially since most of those people tend to be the creators themselves.

Yes, yes, and yes again!

Oh, and DECOMPRESSION! :mad:

Ex_
04-16-2009, 04:41 PM
The fans.

The comics I like just fine.

That's really all I came to say. Nice.

Sighphi
04-16-2009, 04:42 PM
Bendis' New New Avengers

Most of the team has had some sort of military training and to try to show the world that Osborn is really a bad guy the plan they come up with is to get into a fight with him because villains usually talk about their evil plans........ and when that doesnt work one of them does an editorial one TV saying that Osborn is bad because he says so........

What the hell is this? This group of Avengers should really be called the Special Force Avengers from all the crazy training most of them have but that's the best they got? This comic should be all Tom Clancy Rainbow Six like but instead they just end up looking worst than the Young Avengers when they teamed up. It's horrible.

mikekerr3
04-16-2009, 04:45 PM
Ther seemingly intentional trashing of continuity and the fact that they have thrown away the idea ofa shared time-line/universe/

The Vacation time that Spidey took after OMD and the month that he just disappeared from the planet in ASM , make his appearances in the NA anachronisms.

The Break the X-factor took, month passed but they are somehow still in sync with the rest of the MU without missing a beat?

They trough Characterization to the winds with the CW and in its aftermath they are throwing away much of the rest of what made the MU such a compelling place.

Hulk_Is
04-16-2009, 04:49 PM
The way action scenes are drawn now at days. Its like they are trying to go for photo realism or something.

I was just thinking about this the other day -- but I'm always thinkin' about this issue at least every other comic I read. I'm so used to the old-school comic book portrayls of action where it was 30% of memorable posing and the rest is 70% punches, kicks, emission blasts, etc; actually connecting -- and this includes the covers! These were superheroes at one time (speaking as a cynic at the momet, lol)! I'd used to be truly able to make heads or tails of a hero or vilians powerset just by some of the attacks chosen (the character would even explain why they chose the action... course there's no use for that now, most of us are adults, lol). Could Captain "Bucky" America toss the Incredible Hulk using only his bionic arm? Are the Iron Patriot and Cyclops going to be sectioned off somehow and Cyke is only going to be able to survive the assaults through veteran leadership experience and well placed eye blasts? In the past, if I were for some reason to be let down by the actual action that took place inside, I always had the cover as a reference to see how awesome it could be if Captain America could actually take down Galactus with only his sheild, lol!

The comparatively wimpy action scenes of today don't really "grind my gears" so much as I feel they give me a perception of a weakening of the depth of a Super Hero or Villains usage of their powers to gain the upper hand in a fight or an emergency -- because the poses presented are more powerful and effective than the partly major aspect that makes one Marvel hero or villain super in the first place.

What really "grinds my gears" is the ultra fine tuning of the artwork nowadays. I know it's going to press for mass marketing, but let the atwork breathe a little. The ultra vivid printed page (or final product; the art here mainly) may partly justify cost and satiate most consumers, but I for one, sometimes feel that (and I know it's a creative team effort) that the original storytellers pencils get swallowed up by the embellishers. Of course that's what they're called upon to do, but I find it too sweet many times. Mind you, I'm 32 and I grew up on comics during the 80's, so today's swag is gonna be too vivid for me I guess. :biggrin:

BugsySig
04-16-2009, 05:08 PM
...when I can't find the droids I'm looking for.

Babylon23
04-16-2009, 05:22 PM
The seemingly endless 'event' comics, where no resolution is reached because each event is just a set up for the next event.

The overly dark tone of the current Marvel U. The 616 universe was always a darker place than DC, but at least the heroes were still heroes. These days they're arrogant pricks, total wankers or meglomaniacal supervillains.

The general boy's club mentality that seems to permeate through the company. It's like reading a company0wdie line of books written by high school fanboys.

DeadXMan
04-16-2009, 05:27 PM
the x-line.

Only X-force and Factor are the two I really read anymore

Shyft
04-16-2009, 05:29 PM
Comics are too stagnant! The status quo never changes! We need something new and exciting!

...

What?! How DARE you
-kill character A
-give character B a new costume
-depower character C
-create character D
-give character E a new name.

Your work is a slap in the face (You want a phrase that should be banned for a while? There's a 4 word one for you.) to the fans! You hack!! Where do you get your ideas from?!

bingo. (and because bingo isnt enough characters alone) bango.

Fat Cobra
04-16-2009, 05:44 PM
I was just thinking about this the other day -- but I'm always thinkin' about this issue at least every other comic I read. I'm so used to the old-school comic book portrayls of action where it was 30% of memorable posing and the rest is 70% punches, kicks, emission blasts, etc; actually connecting -- and this includes the covers! These were superheroes at one time (speaking as a cynic at the momet, lol)! I'd used to be truly able to make heads or tails of a hero or vilians powerset just by some of the attacks chosen (the character would even explain why they chose the action... course there's no use for that now, most of us are adults, lol). Could Captain "Bucky" America toss the Incredible Hulk using only his bionic arm? Are the Iron Patriot and Cyclops going to be sectioned off somehow and Cyke is only going to be able to survive the assaults through veteran leadership experience and well placed eye blasts? In the past, if I were for some reason to be let down by the actual action that took place inside, I always had the cover as a reference to see how awesome it could be if Captain America could actually take down Galactus with only his sheild, lol!

The comparatively wimpy action scenes of today don't really "grind my gears" so much as I feel they give me a perception of a weakening of the depth of a Super Hero or Villains usage of their powers to gain the upper hand in a fight or an emergency -- because the poses presented are more powerful and effective than the partly major aspect that makes one Marvel hero or villain super in the first place.

What really "grinds my gears" is the ultra fine tuning of the artwork nowadays. I know it's going to press for mass marketing, but let the atwork breathe a little. The ultra vivid printed page (or final product; the art here mainly) may partly justify cost and satiate most consumers, but I for one, sometimes feel that (and I know it's a creative team effort) that the original storytellers pencils get swallowed up by the embellishers. Of course that's what they're called upon to do, but I find it too sweet many times. Mind you, I'm 32 and I grew up on comics during the 80's, so today's swag is gonna be too vivid for me I guess. :biggrin:

What bothers me is every scene just seems like a bunch of guys posing. It make it hard to understand whats going on, like at the end of Secret Invasion where there were like a hundred guys going at it. That final battle did a grand total of nothing for me.

Lord S
04-16-2009, 06:01 PM
Decompression, without a doubt.

Don't mind the price (too much), don't mind the editing (most of the time), but getting half or a third of a story in a comicbook, in comparison to ten years ago, just pisses me off.

Butch Mapa
04-16-2009, 06:24 PM
The $4 tag.

That's about it.

Oh, and I guess Warren Ellis not doing more Marvel work grinds my gears.

Chino
04-16-2009, 06:37 PM
- Bendis on the Avengers franchise
- Constant crossover events
- Loeb on Hulk...Nobody buys the book because Loeb is writing it. The book sells it self, the drop in quality coming off of Planter Hulk is insulting and pointless. Just about anyone else
would be doing a better job.

Double 0
04-16-2009, 06:40 PM
Fight scenes really suck these days, with a few exceptions (Cap, Cosmic Marvel).

That's the fault of the writers and the artists collectively, IMO.

Butch Mapa
04-16-2009, 06:44 PM
- Loeb on Hulk...Nobody buys the book because Loeb is writing it. The book sells it self, the drop in quality coming off of Planter Hulk is insulting and pointless. Just about anyone else
would be doing a better job.

You're kidding, right?

- Hulk hasn't sold this much in years.
- Loeb's books (this decade at least) always sell.

I'll agree that Hulk is subpar work for Loeb, and they definitely should have kept Pak on the title... but to say that the book sells itself and that nobody buys it because of Loeb is to be ignorant.

Chino
04-16-2009, 06:56 PM
So you think the book would drop sales with a different/better writer? Do you really think that? Many people stay on books regardless of the writter. The Hulk is a popular character still riding high from Planet Hulk and WWH. Not to mention Ed Mcguiness or w/e his name is. Some buy it for the art alone. Don't get that but Ok...

To say that the book would drop in sales if say, Pak would have stayed on is ignorant.

Sighphi
04-16-2009, 07:15 PM
You're kidding, right?

- Hulk hasn't sold this much in years.
- Loeb's books (this decade at least) always sell.

I'll agree that Hulk is subpar work for Loeb, and they definitely should have kept Pak on the title... but to say that the book sells itself and that nobody buys it because of Loeb is to be ignorant.

This all started with Planet Hulk.
Leob writes for big brands (this decade at least)

Alexrules
04-16-2009, 07:39 PM
Probably, it's all comparison to how they used to be compared to how they are. They come up with these out there ideas or ideas so big they can't seem to pull them off. Like Civil War for instance, it was a big mess and they could never pull it together as a coherrent story. Also, people do extremely questionable things then later on they are still portrayed as the same terriffic guys. I know Tony and Reed's Thor Clone thing (what writer came up with that) wasn't supposed to kill anybody. Was it? Look at Marvel's most popular character, he did unspeakable horrible things involving his friends and the embodiment of all evil, yet he's still a nice guy? WHich brings me to my next point-nothing pays off. It's 7 issues and then they quit the story. There's no ending to most of their stuff. Planet Hulk atleast had an ending.

THe X-Men. No MOre Mutants? That just doesn't make any sense at all.

Stuff like that.

B. Kuwanger
04-16-2009, 07:53 PM
Delays. I don't think there's anything cute about having to wait 2 - 6 months (see: JMS) between issues, and I really lose interest. Decompression kinda sucks, but I'm a fan of books ending on nice cliffhangers and the next issue should only be four weeks away anyway.

I also really don't like seeing the same few names on every other book. At the moment, if Bendis isn't your cup of tea, you're kinda boned.

Skeets
04-16-2009, 08:16 PM
Greg Land
Koi Pham

Samanthab
04-16-2009, 08:48 PM
My two cents should go to making more brain wrecking plots.

Sighphi
04-16-2009, 08:55 PM
My two cents should go to making more brain wrecking plots.

Final Crisis WHOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Trey
04-16-2009, 09:03 PM
1) The lack of narration, or well-written exposition. The idea that all the reader needs is dialogue is ludicrous. I'm looking at you Bendis. Go write plays.

2) The insane idea that character comes before plot. Every "modern" writer will tell you it's all about character progression and character interaction. That's bull crap. The plot comes first in every story. Then you have your characters react and interact with the plot elements. Action propels a character, which reveals her or her "character".

RolandJP
04-16-2009, 09:45 PM
The end of secret Identites :tear:

arp2008
04-16-2009, 10:09 PM
You what really grinds my gears? When characters are so grossely miswritten they sound like paradies of themselves. Case in point, Mighty Avengers #24. In the preview teh Cabal has a meeting by way of Emma's telepathy and while BICKERING over deals made between themselves in previous books and storylines they sound grossely out of character, especially Doom. The Hood and Osborn aren't safe from Slotts unbecoming dialoge either. Osborn stutters, Hood showns concern of Mr. Megative's movement in NY, and through this all the scene falls apart and loses the grim gravitas you'd expect what a group such as this conevens to discuss matters. Its one of the more irritating shotcomings of American comics. It realy grinds my gears to see a characters so poorly characterized.

SquidSquod
04-16-2009, 10:48 PM
My two cents should go to making more brain wrecking plots.

Literally, IIM is about Tony Stark is damaging his own brain.

C-Cool
04-16-2009, 11:24 PM
The Marvel Universe's so-called "citizens".

Especially Marvel USA. The most unintentionally dumbest group of citizens on any plane of a serial storyline. Their mob mentality thinking is even insulting to the dumbest people in real life.

After that, besides costs (look at the unit numbers. No one wants to buy overpriced comics besides collectors), and the art of Greg Land (good looking... but it lacks a sense of feeling), I got nothing.

LungerTony
04-16-2009, 11:51 PM
More than anything...its the price.

I hate it when heroes fight other heroes over stupid petty disagreements or misunderstandings.

DrDoom616
04-17-2009, 04:32 AM
The things that really grinds my gears about Marvel are:

Lateness, Jeph Loeb & Price Hikes

:evilangry:

Jay Dogg
04-17-2009, 04:52 AM
- Fans, especially those who make assumptions such as:

"AAAAAH, Joe Q and Marvel really want their flagship title (ASM) to fail!"

- Also fans who bitch about how Wolverine is "overexposed" when him appearing in a lot of books shouldn't disrupt their daily lives, and if it does, then Wolverine isn't the problem. If he appears in a certain book and you're tired of seeing him, then either not buy it, or buy and draw your favorite character's face over the panels he appear in.

- Certain writers who takes forever to get to the 10th (and sometimes 5th) issue of their current run on a certain title. I can see if it's the art, but if your books are late while working with different artists, then something's wrong...and it can't be blamed on art.

-

Karl H
04-17-2009, 04:53 AM
You lot.

If you're all so unhappy. Vote with your feet and your wallets. It's pretty simple.

B. Kuwanger
04-17-2009, 08:33 AM
I don't think any people online can get under my skin, but the closest they get to grinding my gears is with comments like "don't buy comics you don't like." Like common sense is the issue, and reading a post will enlighten me and get me to stop complaining. It's like these people want a board where no one complains, and don't realize how strangely dull that would be.

insidemyhead
04-17-2009, 09:34 AM
The constant and unnecessary renumbering of titles.

Oh, we want new readers to pick it up, start over at #1, but wait, we would have been up to #500 if we hadn't done that, switch it back! Oops, big numbers intimidate people, switch it back again!

Richard Bishop
04-17-2009, 10:27 AM
My fellow money squanderers, what grinds really your gears about these fifteen minutes of entertainment...
The fact that I rarely get 15 minutes of entertainment out of the books I buy, even after rereading them. I can get through an issue of Moon Knight in about 3 minutes, and some others barely take more than that.

The only ones that I actually feel I'm getting my money's worth from are Captain America, Captain Britain and X-Factor; the others are bought because I'm a completionist and I hate to drop things mid-run, not because I derive any great pleasure in reading them any more.:frown:

arp2008
04-17-2009, 11:32 AM
The only ones that I actually feel I'm getting my money's worth from are Captain America, Captain Britain and X-Factor; the others are bought because I'm a completionist and I hate to drop things mid-run, not because I derive any great pleasure in reading them any more.:frown:
I'm trying to break myself of that habit myself however much irks me to have a gap in a given run of a series. Is be a completist a compulsive disorder?

beanburito60
04-17-2009, 11:53 AM
Decompression, without a doubt.

Don't mind the price (too much), don't mind the editing (most of the time), but getting half or a third of a story in a comicbook, in comparison to ten years ago, just pisses me off.


I just got back into comics a few months ago and have been viewing the forums the last few weeks and am suprised this isn't talked about more.
I went to my lcs to look at wolverine: weapon x and iron fist because i was looking to subscribe to them, and they were so short it caused me to second guess whether or not to subscribe to them. And just by picking them up the weight difference and thickness was extremely noticable to the comics i grew up with(90's). At least the art was great.
I guess the day of 48pg 1st issues and 64 pg avenger specials are gone.

pharoahe22
04-17-2009, 12:34 PM
- Fans, especially those who make assumptions such as:

"AAAAAH, Joe Q and Marvel really want their flagship title (ASM) to fail!"

- Also fans who bitch about how Wolverine is "overexposed" when him appearing in a lot of books shouldn't disrupt their daily lives, and if it does, then Wolverine isn't the problem. If he appears in a certain book and you're tired of seeing him, then either not buy it, or buy and draw your favorite character's face over the panels he appear in.


Thank you!!! I never for the life of me understood why people cared about Wolverine appearing in books that they don't read!

Fan: "He's so overexposed..."
Me: "Do you actually read all of the books he appears in? Do you read First Class, X-force, Wolverine: Origins, or Wolverine's solo book?"
Fan: "Well noooo, but..."
Me: "So...why do you care?"

lol I can understand if you collect all or most of the books, but if you're collecting little to none of them, it really shouldn't matter to you. Spiderman is all over the place too, but I only read about him in New Avengers, so I don't really care if he's in 1,000 other books.

pharoahe22
04-17-2009, 12:58 PM
My actual number 1 complaint is when powerful characters are "dumbed down" because the writers are too lazy to be imaginative and come up with a logical threats. Even with characters like The Sentry, you still literally have at least 50 characters who I can name off the top of my head who are more powerful than him...let alone new characters who you could create. Instead we get a Sentry character who has to run away in his appearances for the story to make any sense. If you have a powerful character, make the threat bigger...simple as that.

I also hate mischaracterization...when it's blatent. That also goes with the thing I stated above. Like my least favorite thing of all time was in Enemy of the State written by Mark Millar, even though I liked the series overall. First, he had Wolverine run from Elektra, then he fell down and impaled himself on a sword against DD :rolleyes: , and then he goes "The Gorgon beat Elektra, the best assassin in the world...what chance do I have?" FAIL lol. If not for those three things, it might've been my favorite Wolverine story. Do your research when you're writing a character. Ultimately, it's just a comic, but you can't help but get a little annoyed if you're a fan of something, and someone screws it up after you looked forward to it.

What's even worst than that is when I writer contradicts his own continuity hahaha. Like with Loeb. Red Hulk vs. Thor's first fight. Thor's pouring it on and smashes Red Hulk in the face, and the dust clears, and there's just a little cut. Fast forward to the fight with She-Hulk's group. Red Hulk's bleeding perfusely from getting shot in the face from a regular shotgun. I'm almost positive Thor with his class 100+ strength hits with more strength than a shotgun does. *Shakes head* WTF Loeb lol

I also think it's annoying when one fan says that another fan's opinion is wrong. Like if one person says "I like this" and another person says "You're retarded for liking that..." Different strokes people.

arp2008
04-17-2009, 06:17 PM
My actual number 1 complaint is when powerful characters are "dumbed down" because the writers are too lazy to be imaginative and come up with a logical threats. Even with characters like The Sentry, you still literally have at least 50 characters who I can name off the top of my head who are more powerful than him...let alone new characters who you could create. Instead we get a Sentry character who has to run away in his appearances for the story to make any sense. If you have a powerful character, make the threat bigger...simple as that. That how DC handles Superman for the most part and look how well recieved he is among the general fan base :rolleyes:



I also think it's annoying when one fan says that another fan's opinion is wrong. Like if one person says "I like this" and another person says "You're retarded for liking that..." Different strokes people.That happens a lot here on CBR, and to me, especially. I remember when posting about how awful and redundant NA has been people were saying my opinion was wrong because I didn't reflect their own; because prefer originality over recycled villians and improper leadership. ****ing fanboys. They really grind my gears.

zebop
04-18-2009, 02:09 AM
What grinds my gears about Marvel comic books?

1. Jeph Loeb. He's past it.
2. Millar and Hitch's Fantastic Four run. Who knew it would suck this badly?
3. One More Day. Hated it then. Still hate it now.
4. The terminal lateness of Astonishing X-Men, Thorand The Twelve and nobody at Marvel seems to care.
5. The amateurish art on so many titles (I'm looking at you Khoi Pham and whoever is supposedly drawing The Incredible Hercules.
6. Killing heroes for fun and profits.
7. Huge "events" that drag on too long and cost too much.
8. The refusal of anyone at Marvel to say "no" to anything Brian Michael Bendis wants to do.
9. No Garth Ennis.
10. Not enough Warren Ellis.

:frown:

DeadXMan
04-18-2009, 02:19 AM
What grinds my gears about Marvel comic books?

1. Jeph Loeb. He's past it.
2. Millar and Hitch's Fantastic Four run. Who knew it would suck this badly?3. One More Day. Hated it then. Still hate it now.
4. The terminal lateness of Astonishing X-Men, Thorand The Twelve and nobody at Marvel seems to care.
5. The amateurish art on so many titles (I'm looking at you Khoi Pham and whoever is supposedly drawing The Incredible Hercules.
6. Killing heroes for fun and profits.
7. Huge "events" that drag on too long and cost too much.
8. The refusal of anyone at Marvel to say "no" to anything Brian Michael Bendis wants to do.
9. No Garth Ennis.
10. Not enough Warren Ellis.

:frown:

YO! Right here!

striderhirryu2
04-18-2009, 02:50 AM
What grinds my gears about Marvel comic books?

1. Jeph Loeb. He's past it.
2. Millar and Hitch's Fantastic Four run. Who knew it would suck this badly?
3. One More Day. Hated it then. Still hate it now.
4. The terminal lateness of Astonishing X-Men, Thorand The Twelve and nobody at Marvel seems to care.
5. The amateurish art on so many titles (I'm looking at you Khoi Pham and whoever is supposedly drawing The Incredible Hercules.
6. Killing heroes for fun and profits.
7. Huge "events" that drag on too long and cost too much.
8. The refusal of anyone at Marvel to say "no" to anything Brian Michael Bendis wants to do.
9. No Garth Ennis.
10. Not enough Warren Ellis.



:frown:

All the right notes there.

Mark_S
04-18-2009, 04:16 AM
The fact that every single storyline that I don't like-or actually hate-sells. It seems as if marvel has come up with the perfect marketing strategy:just write something I feel is poorly written with bad plotting, characterization and continuity mistakes and it will sell.

Mark_S

Grapeweasel
04-18-2009, 05:39 AM
Marvel is in a very strange place now.

They're producing some very good comics featuring characters I don't care about, and some very bad comics featuring characters I love.

jackolover
04-18-2009, 06:01 AM
Two things

The Dark Reign with Norman Osborn in charge is just grinding to an obscure halt, with hardly any impact. And I can understand this, because Norman wouldn't want to draw any attention to himself, and unfortunitely, that means Marvel can't really use high impact events to move the "event" along.

Secondly, I am constantly distracted by the lack of time line in the Dark Reign for instance.

The last thing is Marvels preponderance to leave things unexplained. I just read a TBolts book #123, and in that it is mentioned the Swordsman contacted Armin Zola to clone his sister. To do this successfully, Zola had to contact Andreas' Father, the Baron Strucker, who is in deep hiding, as we saw in SW #2. Norman Osborn was aware of this connection to Hydra. Norman Osborn was aware of the Skrulls when he talked Cap Marv down from ruining the TBolts, and Norman Osborn knew how to hack the Skrull messaging Tech sent to Nick Fury during SI, when Deadpool was sabotaged. Yet none of this is explained.

jackolover
04-18-2009, 06:12 AM
1) The lack of narration, or well-written exposition. The idea that all the reader needs is dialogue is ludicrous. I'm looking at you Bendis. Go write plays.

2) The insane idea that character comes before plot. Every "modern" writer will tell you it's all about character progression and character interaction. That's bull crap. The plot comes first in every story. Then you have your characters react and interact with the plot elements. Action propels a character, which reveals her or her "character".

Yeah? Tell that to Ed Brubaker about his Cap #49. I liked it and it had no action. It was a buildup issue, and if you can't see that building the character of Sharon Carter is important to the Cap book, then I can't help you.

jackolover
04-18-2009, 07:11 AM
The Marvel Universe's so-called "citizens".

Especially Marvel USA. The most unintentionally dumbest group of citizens on any plane of a serial storyline. Their mob mentality thinking is even insulting to the dumbest people in real life.

.

There has been a discussion about that in a thread about post-modernism. The "citizens" of the MU have been portrayed as the "I want this now", especially during Civil War. I tend to think the MU citizens aren't that far from the real life people in this world. You look at how the media portrays instant gratification in their programming, and all those reality shows, and I seriously wonder where our culture is heading.

JaredMilne
04-18-2009, 08:02 AM
What really drives me nuts is what's been done to some of Marvel's major heroes, most notably Reed Richards and Tony Stark.

They create a homicidal clone of one of their closest friends, blast another one into space without his permission and stabbing him in the back, imprison still more of their friends, whose crimes were only using their unique abilities to defend the innocent and helpless, recruit dozens of mentally unstable murderers and psychopaths into law enforcement (why don't they just turn the residents of Attica Prison into a branch of the Marine Corps?), support legislation that allows the government to conscript (read: enslave) anyone who gets superhuman powers and force them to risk their necks at any time the government wants, without giving them a choice in the matter, even if all the person ever wanted was to just become an electrician or a schoolteacher.

They've become powermongers and oppressors themselves, without regard for the voices and freedoms of others, and justifying their borderline fascism by saying that they're "futurists" and that this is for the ultimate good.

Another thing that bugs me is how people like Sally Floyd whine and moan about how much superhero fights cost in property damage. What no one seems to have considered is just how much more of a cost there'd be if the villains had gotten their way.

What if Carnage and his merry band had been allowed to run amuck during Maximum Carnage? What if the heroes just stood idly by and allowed the demons to have fun during Inferno? What if the X-Men had allowed the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants to murder Senator Robert Kelly? What if Spider-Man had stood by and allowed Doctor Octopus to get his hands on a deadly military weapon, or the Shocker to get away with money that those bank customers might have slaved for years to earn? What if he had allowed Nitro to pursue his murderous vendetta against Captain Marvel?

If the villains were allowed to do whatever the hell they wanted, Miss Floyd would be damn lucky if she only got an increase in her tax bill to pay for the damage they'd leave in their wake. Hell, she and the rest of the ingrates among the MU public could/would end up being enslaved by any number of tyrants ranging from the Red Skull to Magneto to the Leader to Mister Sinister to Doctor Octopus to Doctor Doom to the Mandarin to Baron Zemo to all the other power-hungry maniacs out there?

You think the taxes you pay to cover the property damage are bad? Wait and see how much worse they become when the Red Skull takes over and begins bleeding you dry to keep his grip on power.

Parch
04-18-2009, 08:47 AM
I tend to think the MU citizens aren't that far from the real life people in this world... and I seriously wonder where our culture is heading.The MU reflecting the mob mentality of the real world is so factual that it's depressing. It's disturbing how quickly events and public gatherings will turn to violence and vandalism at the first opportunity. Society has to spend a fortune on law and security because there's a huge percentage of the population that looks to make trouble or is quickly reduced to it without a strong police presence. Common civility can no longer be taken for granted.

Dusty.
04-18-2009, 09:16 AM
More than anything, the pompous "ACCEPT CHANGE" ads that get shoved down my throat. That smells of Bendis and Millar. I don't like people telling be what I have to accept and what I have to like, and I see many easily manipulated people online just rolling over like it's all the rage to do so.

arp2008
04-18-2009, 09:36 AM
Important notice, guys! I didn't created this thread to be about comic books in general, not only Marvel. For whatever reason those agrravating mods felt the need to add Marvel in the threads intially generalized title. If I coul change it back I would, but I can't. So I'm telling you guys to not limit your grievancec to Marvel alone. Spread the hate to other publishers and companies and whathaveyou and let other know, what about comic books in GENERAL grinds your gears. Have fun. :wink:

T Hedge Coke
04-18-2009, 09:46 AM
Dodging responsibility for suspect material. If you wrote, edited, drew or published something that then offended people or turned out, in retrospect, to have not been the most politic idea (intentions aside), cop to it and don't treat the audience like idiots.

And, really, fans/comics-readers who believe firmly that you haven't made it in comics unless you've serviced a corporate icon in a major way. Or, who believe comics that aren't by one of the big two don't count as comics, be those from a non-American company or simply a smaller American release. Charles Burns or Hagio Moto aren't lesser talents because they haven't done four years of X-Men, yet.

Double 0
04-18-2009, 10:16 AM
Dodging responsibility for suspect material. If you wrote, edited, drew or published something that then offended people or turned out, in retrospect, to have not been the most politic idea (intentions aside), cop to it and don't treat the audience like idiots.

And, really, fans/comics-readers who believe firmly that you haven't made it in comics unless you've serviced a corporate icon in a major way. Or, who believe comics that aren't by one of the big two don't count as comics, be those from a non-American company or simply a smaller American release. Charles Burns or Hagio Moto aren't lesser talents because they haven't done four years of X-Men, yet.

I agree with both, definitely.

Another thing that has bothered me is this whole "characters are toys that are meant to be broken" mentality. Has anyone heard of "form fits function"? Why can't heroes do exactly what they are meant to do (be heroes)?

Tragedy and depressing material doesn't always equal good stories. And vice versa. Too much of anything can lead to bad things.

End of Time
04-18-2009, 11:07 AM
My pet peeves at the moment...

1. There is never a climax or a resolution to a story. You get huge events, that run through various titles, and all it manages to do is be a lead-in for the next event, which in turn is just the beginning of the next big thing.

2. Personality cult. Writers getting away with murder because they are considered "hot" at the moment, or because they're the boss' pet. From recruiting people from television, who end up not turning in work for 3 years, to giving one writer a hell of a lot of creative power over other writers.

3. Hyberbole. Everything these days seems to be hailed as the next best thing since sliced bread.

4. No continuity. Why invest in any title if the events of said title are going to be forgotten or ignored when the characters get transplanted to another title, or the creative team changes.

5. The price of a single comic. I can read an entire comic in under five minutes... and it costs me 4 bucks. I feel cheated out of my money.



Bendis' New New Avengers

Most of the team has had some sort of military training and to try to show the world that Osborn is really a bad guy the plan they come up with is to get into a fight with him because villains usually talk about their evil plans........ and when that doesnt work one of them does an editorial one TV saying that Osborn is bad because he says so........



Let's be honest here, that's something that is Bendis through-and-through. He couldn't have his characters state any sort of reason that makes sense if his life depended on it. He manages them into a situation where he is unable to make arguments for his characters to act one something.

The result is people stating something and when asked "why" they simply shrug and end up with an incredibly braindead "because it just is!".

Biggest offender House of M... but there Bendis had the privilige of just not caring and dumping the final product in someone else's lap... he concocted the House of M, but didn't have to deal with any of the fall-out.

Gitaroo_Dude
04-18-2009, 11:30 AM
My pet peeves at the moment...

1. There is never a climax or a resolution to a story. You get huge events, that run through various titles, and all it manages to do is be a lead-in for the next event, which in turn is just the beginning of the next big thing.

2. Personality cult. Writers getting away with murder because they are considered "hot" at the moment, or because they're the boss' pet. From recruiting people from television, who end up not turning in work for 3 years, to giving one writer a hell of a lot of creative power over other writers.

3. Hyberbole. Everything these days seems to be hailed as the next best thing since sliced bread.

4. No continuity. Why invest in any title if the events of said title are going to be forgotten or ignored when the characters get transplanted to another title, or the creative team changes.

5. The price of a single comic. I can read an entire comic in under five minutes... and it costs me 4 bucks. I feel cheated out of my money.





Let's be honest here, that's something that is Bendis through-and-through. He couldn't have his characters state any sort of reason that makes sense if his life depended on it. He manages them into a situation where he is unable to make arguments for his characters to act one something.

The result is people stating something and when asked "why" they simply shrug and end up with an incredibly braindead "because it just is!".

Biggest offender House of M... but there Bendis had the privilige of just not caring and dumping the final product in someone else's lap... he concocted the House of M, but didn't have to deal with any of the fall-out.

The only people to blame for event hype are the fans.

If you bought Secret Invasion, you're part of the problem, and it's not Marvel to blame. If fans are too thick to see past the artificial hype then they have nothing to complain about.

Trey
04-18-2009, 04:17 PM
Yeah? Tell that to Ed Brubaker about his Cap #49. I liked it and it had no action. It was a buildup issue, and if you can't see that building the character of Sharon Carter is important to the Cap book, then I can't help you.

You can do an issue like that once in a while, I enjoyed it. And it tore down her character. Because she did nothing in the issue. What did we learn about her? She's a coward.

Plot is more important. I don't mean fight scenes. The actions a character takes are more important than what he or she says or thinks.

jackolover
04-18-2009, 05:34 PM
You can do an issue like that once in a while, I enjoyed it. And it tore down her character. Because she did nothing in the issue. What did we learn about her? She's a coward.

Plot is more important. I don't mean fight scenes. The actions a character takes are more important than what he or she says or thinks.

I don't mean to hyjack this thread, just that I need to respond. Thanks Trey for that take on Sharons character. I wouldn't have seen Sharon as a coward, just because she didn't kill herself for killing her lover. Maybe Sharon just doesn't like Shakespear.

T Hedge Coke
04-18-2009, 05:46 PM
The actions a character takes are more important than what he or she says or thinks.

Well, that's remarkably debatable, wouldn't you think? I mean, Catcher in the Rye seems to've done well for some folks. The Quentin section of The Sound and the Fury is rarely cut out to improve the novel.

Clea
04-18-2009, 06:13 PM
What grinds my gears?

1) Writers who write comic books as if they were tv scripts. (I'm looking at you, B.M. Bendis.)

2) Cynicism passing itself off as 'cool', coupled with turning heroes into quasi- (or outright) villains and jerks.

3) $3-$4 cover price. I have been dropping marginally entertaining books like mad because of this. (I do 'vote with my wallet', as someone mentioned, and I've dropped over a dozen titles that I'd been buying because of the cost and/or because the storyline or writing style annoys me.)

4.) Decompression. Dragging stories on far past their merit. It's lazy writing, IMO.

5) Non-stop, crossover "events."

6) When it becomes excessive, the "characters are toys that are meant to be broken" mentality (as KidKamikaze10 mentioned, above). I do agree that characters should not remain static. I'm fine with characters changing or misbehaving, so long as the changes are consistent with what we know of the character. Unfortunately, IMO Marvel has gone overboard with this business of 'breaking' characters to fit them into a new mold or simply to serve a story or a particular writer's POV. There's been enough breaking of characters and smashing the MU. That's a limited way to tell stories, and it's getting old.

And a peeve that is not specific to Marvel, just in general: referring to comics as "floppies."

Mark_S
04-18-2009, 06:14 PM
Well, that's remarkably debatable, wouldn't you think? I mean, Catcher in the Rye seems to've done well for some folks. The Quentin section of The Sound and the Fury is rarely cut out to improve the novel.

Didn't read those, but in this case-at least as long as we are talking about the current state of marvel comics-the motivations can be as pure as snow but the actions can be as dark as slush. The problem is that the whole basis for the defense of many character actions is that their motives are good ones. As I've mentioned before having one character douse another with boiling hot water because he fears that if he doesn't another character will burn the character alive really doesn't negate the pain that the character is in.
A man's motives may matter on some spiritual level but as far as his fellow man goes it is his actions that he is judged by. The fact that he escapes many of the consequences of his actions or that he feels guilty doesn't change the pain the he has dealt out. You want to build a utopia? Fine, don't do it over my spilled blood and broken bones.

Yet this seems to be the philosophy of the current marvel writers/editors. And that does bug me. In my opinion they believe that only if a character is willing to do evil things to everyone around him that he will achieve good things. Honor, integrity... just words to them with no meaning or relevance in the darkness that is their world.


Mark_S

Expletive Deleted
04-18-2009, 08:03 PM
For whatever reason those agrravating mods felt the need to add Marvel in the threads intially generalized title.This the Marvel forum.

If you'd like to start general comic topics, another forum (say, Community or Comics Should Be Good) may be more appropriate.