I think Bruce's "death" proves Damian is his son

[Choppa]

When Tim asked Alfred if Bruce had done a DNA test to see if Damian was really his son, Alfred says that he did and he knows the results, but wanted to let Bruce tell him himself.

Well if the test was negative, and Alfred thinks he is dead, wouldn't he then tell Tim since Bruce isn't around to tell him himself?

So since he hasn't said anything I conclude that the test was positive and Damian is in fact his biological son.

[WorstThingUS]

Did anyone really doubt this? That Talia would ever let another man touch her, much less carry his child then try to pass it off to Bruce as his own?

[Chiroptera]

Did anyone really doubt this? That Talia would ever let another man touch her, much less carry his child then try to pass it off to Bruce as his own?

Agreed. Never, at any time, did I believe there was any other possibility than that Damian is indeed biologically Bruce's off spring; Talia's too darn obsessed to accept anything else.

[Lorendiac]

Did anyone really doubt this? That Talia would ever let another man touch her, much less carry his child then try to pass it off to Bruce as his own?

She has let Bane touch her (and I don't mean they just shook hands). Possibly other men as well. Granted, that could have been undone by Superboy-Prime's Retcon Punch for all I know.

I do have trouble seeing her carrying another man's child for nine months, though. But wasn't Damian supposedly grown in an artificial womb, instead of Talia lugging around a growing fetus in her body for the usual nine months? I could imagine her allowing her daddy to splice together her genes and Bruce's genes -- or her genes and some other guy's genes -- or lots of people's genes all mixed together -- and then gestate the kid in a tank, as long as it wouldn't cause Talia herself too much inconvenience.

My question is: If Damian is exactly what he seems to be when taken at face value -- i.e., if he got precisely 50 percent of his genes from Bruce and precisely 50 percent from Talia, plain and simple! -- then why did Morrison have the characters being so very, very coy about not telling us exactly what the DNA test results were if there was nothing surprising about them?

[Sn4tcH]

I know that Talia said that he was raised in a tube, but Grant also said in an interview it was supposed to be the son from Son of the Demon. Apparently the Superboy Prime punch shuffled some stuff around.

[Lorendiac]

I know that Talia said that he was raised in a tube, but Grant also said in an interview it was supposed to be the son from Son of the Demon. Apparently the Superboy Prime punch shuffled some stuff around.

I believe Grant also said he didn't bother to reread "Son of the Demon" before he started writing "Batman and Son," so that he had come to realize there were all sorts of details of its old plot which his memory had mangled when he introduced Damian in the early issues of his run. Somewhere along the line I suspect he washed his hands of the whole "Son of the Demon" thing and just started consciously striking out on his own, as with the artificial womb, for instance -- which I believe was only mentioned after that first arc in which Grant originally thought he was "respecting" Mike Barr's version, even though he wasn't?

[Sn4tcH]

It seems like forever ago, but everything you said would make sense. The only thing that points to Son of the Demon as of late was there was a picture either in a Last Rites issue or Whatever Happened To The Dark Knight, where Bruce is going through memories and there's a scene from Son of the Demon with him and Talia embracing. I don't believe it says anything about Damien at that point, but I found it interesting none the less.

[AJM]

In Son Of The Demon, Talia fakes a miscarriage and then leaves the baby boy on the doorstep of an orphanage, so i think that version is pretty much null and void now.

I never doubted it at all, Batman #666 confirms it.

[jgiannantoni05]

Morrison has deliberately left the issue open for a reason. So we are not to be sure he is really is Bruce's son. He could be a clone of Bruce, or something.
________
Hawaii marijuana dispensaries (http://hawaii.dispensaries.org/)

[HeckBoy]

Morrison has deliberately left the issue open for a reason. So we are not to be sure he is really is Bruce's son. He could be a clone of Bruce, or something.Yeah, I think he just left it deliberately open (for the time being anyway) so that he or someone else could "easily" undo it in the future if need be.

[Lorendiac]

Yeah, I think he just left it deliberately open (for the time being anyway) so that he or someone else could "easily" undo it in the future if need be.

I tended to assume he was deliberately building up to the "final revelation" about Damian's precise origin and nature. I don't see why he would feel there was any point in leaving that wide open for someone else to worry about in the distant future.

After all, I've taken it for granted from the beginning that Morrison knows perfectly well that once he "really finishes" his run as a Batman writer (as opposed to these "occasional interruptions" in it), someone will promptly do the right thing and contrive a way to make Damian totally disappear from Batman's lifestyle in the ongoing stories . . . by any means necessary. (Kill him, magically age him to an adult and send him off to get a life somewhere else, erase him from DCU history, give him amnesia and put him up for adoption, whatever!)

Heck, even a DNA test "proving" Damian was Bruce's kid wouldn't need to be conclusive. It hasn't been so many years since the Supergirl known as Cir-El passed a DNA test with flying colors to "prove" her claim that she was Superman's daughter from many years in the future! A few issues later, it turned out that was not true! She was merely the product of some genetic engineering by the Futuresmiths, and that was why she had some of Clark's Kryptonian DNA in her!

Come to think of it, one of the reasons I haven't updated my "Ra's al Ghul FAQ" on this site in almost 3 years is that I've been waiting for the mystery of Damian's heritage to be properly resolved so that I can explain, in the FAQ, whether or not Damian is "really" Batman's son and Ra's al Ghul's grandson.

Waiting . . . and waiting . . . and waiting . . . I wonder how many more years it will take for Grant to commit himself?

[Seraku]

I believe Grant also said he didn't bother to reread "Son of the Demon" before he started writing "Batman and Son,he didn't, he simply heard that someone else had in fact come up with the idea of a Talia/Bruce offspring.

his answer to the inconsistancies is that a lot has happened in all the crises and the circumstances were altered

[WorstThingUS]

Morrison has deliberately left the issue open for a reason. So we are not to be sure he is really is Bruce's son. He could be a clone of Bruce, or something.

Where has this has even been remotely presented as a mystery to be explored? No one questions it in context of the story. Incubator or womb, he is presented and accepted by all, including Bruce, as his son and given that Morrison writes him as the all-knowing Bat-god, Batman would have seen through any ruse.

[ArtEvans]

Did anyone really doubt this? That Talia would ever let another man touch her, much less carry his child then try to pass it off to Bruce as his own?

She didn't carry the child, it was grown in an artificial womb.

Until I see Bruce's DNA tests, Damian's not Bruce's biological son.

[Choppa]

I guess everyone forgot how Talia kissed Jason before she let him escape from Ra's. That's certainly not being shy.

I really don't see any compelling evidence that he is his biological son. His whole birth is ambiguous and has yet to be cleared up. We can't even agree on what happened. Was he grown in a lab? Did things happen like in Son of the Bat with some differences? If so what are those differences?

Obviously, as was said, the issue is supposed to be ambiguous so that if a future writer wants to make him unrelated to Bruce he can. I can't imagine why Bruce wouldn't tell him the results right away.

[Sn4tcH]

I've read action figure descriptions that read:

"He's the son of Batman and Talia al Ghul from a brief marriage in the previously non-canon story Batman: Son of the Demon. Damian is characterized by primal feelings brought about by rigorous martial arts training."

I didn't even realize Damian being Bruce's son was an argument point still.

[jgiannantoni05]

Batman RIP indicates that Damian's parentage is an unsettled issue.
________
Magic Flight Launch Box (http://www.vaporshop.com/mflb-vaporizer.html)

[WorstThingUS]

Batman RIP indicates that Damian's parentage is an unsettled issue.

Would someone mind telling me exactly where, because otherwise it's just another instance of fanboys creating drama where there is none.

[jgiannantoni05]

The part where Tim asked Alfred if Damian is really Batman's son, and Alfred responds that Bruce carried out a DNA test on Damian and when the time is right, he will tell Tim the results.

No drama here, it's right there in RIP. Morrison clearly laid that there to return to it.
________
VISION INSURANCE ADVICE (http://www.insurance-forums.org/vision-insurance/)

[Samanthab]

wait wait you lost me there who's the mom again?

[Captain Jim]

Talia.


...............

[ArtEvans]

The part where Tim asked Alfred if Damian is really Batman's son, and Alfred responds that Bruce carried out a DNA test on Damian and when the time is right, he will tell Tim the results.

No drama here, it's right there in RIP. Morrison clearly laid that there to return to it.

I agree. In the end, it will turn out Damian is not Bruce's son and he'll go batshit because he won't be able to handle being non-biological like Dick, Tim, and Jason.

[cosmoboy]

Did anyone really doubt this? That Talia would ever let another man touch her, much less carry his child then try to pass it off to Bruce as his own?
Well, no. But there's a couple story possibilities right there.

[bigbluntz]

What if Damien gets his memory wiped at some point and eventually turns out to be Terry McGinnis lol

[AJM]

Has no-one read #666?

"When the world's greatest crime fighter and the daughter of the ultimate criminal mastermind got together, there could be only one result: the ultimate child. Genetically perfected and grown in an artificial womb, Damian was engineered to kill and replace his famous father."

Where's the mystery? Artificial womb or not, it's Bruce's sperm and Talia's egg.

As for RIP, Alfred just didn't want to upset Tim, and Tim knows it too - he replies with a disappointed, "The son of Satan is my brother?"

Plus, Morrison said he based it on Son Of The Demon, and there was absolutely no doubt that they had a baby boy together in that story. By his own admission, he forgot some of the details and altered the origin a bit, but nevertheless took the basic idea that Bruce and Talia have a son.

There's no debate at all. If you don't like Damian, fair enough, but there's no need to make things up. Those couple of frames in RIP were just a dramatic scene to show how Tim was coping with being usurped and was part of the whole red-herring atmosphere in the story and nothing more.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

There's no debate at all. If you don't like Damian, fair enough, but there's no need to make things up. Those couple of frames in RIP were just a dramatic scene to show how Tim was coping with being usurped and was part of the whole red-herring atmosphere in the story and nothing more.

I tend to agree with you. People point to the scene in RIP, but it wouldn't make sense if Damian WASN'T his son. Bruce wants to wait to tell Tim the NON-news himself, the news that doesn't effect him really? Or would Bruce maybe want to talk to him about being a part of their family. Not only does Tim's response indicate he knew the answer, as you mention, but Bruce wanting to talk about it, PLUS Batman 666, and the fact that he remains a part of their lives AFTER Bruce's apparent demise, why would Alfred keep him around if the results were that they weren't related? Just to keep Talia involved in their lives now that Bruce is gone? Everything points to Damian being Bruce's kid.

[jgiannantoni05]

There's no debate at all. If you don't like Damian, fair enough, but there's no need to make things up.

No, no. There is very reasonable ground via RIP to conclude that Morrison hasn't settled Damian's parentage (or lack thereof).

As for 666, the story isn't even canon. Didn't happen and may never happen (like Morrison stressed about DC One Million).

For all we know, Damian can secretly be an artificial creation using Ra's and Talia's DNA (maybe the plan is to trick Batman into becoming Ra's heir and Talia's husband using the "son" ruse). A clone of Bruce. Etc.

I am not certain the scene in RIP only served to merely show Tim's concern for being usurped.
________
Buell Xb12S (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Buell_XB12S)

[AJM]

No, no. There is very reasonable ground via RIP to conclude that Morrison hasn't settled Damian's parentage (or lack thereof).

Not really - there's only that one scene.

As for 666, the story isn't even canon. Didn't happen and may never happen (like Morrison stressed about DC One Million).

Not true. Morrison has recently stressed the importance of #666 in interviews, and confirmed that the new villains he introduced in the issue will return in Batman & Robin. #666 is absolutely instrumental to Morrison's story - it even told us that Dick and Damian will be Batman and Robin almost two years ago. Whether it's 'canon' is irrelevant - it's a chapter in Morrison's story that supplies us with the origin of Batman's son. This origin is not told by a character in the story - it's not Talia or Ra's speaking, it's the author directly addressing the reader. So who's try to trick us? And why?

For all we know, Damian can secretly be an artificial creation using Ra's and Talia's DNA (maybe the plan is to trick Batman into becoming Ra's heir and Talia's husband using the "son" ruse).

They don't seem like the incestuous type to me, ho ho.

I am not certain the scene in RIP only served to merely show Tim's concern for being usurped.

I think Tim's reaction is more important than his question.

[jgiannantoni05]

AJM: We'll see, when Morrison is done. Agree to disagree. Morrison said there are plenty of twists still coming after RIP.
________
FULL MELT HASH (http://trichomes.org/hashish/full-melt-hash)

[elaine_v]

Oh no. Is he officially dead or will his spirit come back and he can assume the guise of Batman in the future?

Or come back in The Super Duper Final Crisis, and then the trade off is the death of Wonder Woman for Batman's (Bruce Wayne) return?

[nepenthes]

Oh no. Is he officially dead or will his spirit come back and he can assume the guise of Batman in the future?

Or come back in The Super Duper Final Crisis, and then the trade off is the death of Wonder Woman for Batman's (Bruce Wayne) return?

he's sent back in time on another Earth. everyone only thinks he's dead

[bongoes]

What if Damien gets his memory wiped at some point and eventually turns out to be Terry McGinnis lol
YES!! That would actually be quite cool. The only problem is that they aren't going to age all the older heroes and actually have him be Batman in a futuristic world, though it would be a cool possible future miniseries.

[Captain Jim]

he's sent back in time on another Earth. everyone only thinks he's dead

Why "another" earth?

[Constantine Drakon]

Why "another" earth?

I believe that the current "What Ever Happened to the Dark Knight" storyline is showing the various lives Batman is living.

The Omega Sanction, as it's been explained to us, forces an individual to live and die a series of depressing lives. It's quite possible the lives and deaths in Gaiman's story are due to the Omega Effect.

[nepenthes]

Why "another" earth?

I thought there was a question as to whether the scene with the cave painting took place on prehistoric New Earth or perhaps one of the other worlds. i still haven't gotten to grips with all of Final Crisis it's just the impression i got from reading feedback, that there was some debate about where it actually was

[Choppa]

I tend to agree with you. People point to the scene in RIP, but it wouldn't make sense if Damian WASN'T his son. Bruce wants to wait to tell Tim the NON-news himself, the news that doesn't effect him really? Or would Bruce maybe want to talk to him about being a part of their family. Not only does Tim's response indicate he knew the answer, as you mention, but Bruce wanting to talk about it, PLUS Batman 666, and the fact that he remains a part of their lives AFTER Bruce's apparent demise, why would Alfred keep him around if the results were that they weren't related? Just to keep Talia involved in their lives now that Bruce is gone? Everything points to Damian being Bruce's kid.

Damian is too dangerous left alone that's why Bruce bothers to keep an eye on him and why Alfred and Dick do the same once Bruce is gone. As for why he doesn't tell Tim, perhaps he doesn't because it doesn't matter. Tim is son regardless of what the test says, so he doesn't need a certain result to prove it. It obviously does affect him since Tim is clearly shaken by Damian's appearance and how it will affect Bruce and his relationship. The way things are going and the fact that Morrison leaves some doubt makes it clear that Damian will most likely turn out not to be his son.

I thought there was a question as to whether the scene with the cave painting took place on prehistoric New Earth or perhaps one of the other worlds. i still haven't gotten to grips with all of Final Crisis it's just the impression i got from reading feedback, that there was some debate about where it actually was

It's Earth-51, you see this in the beginning of FC #1 and per the comments Nix Uotan.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

Damian is too dangerous left alone that's why Bruce bothers to keep an eye on him and why Alfred and Dick do the same once Bruce is gone. As for why he doesn't tell Tim, perhaps he doesn't because it doesn't matter. Tim is son regardless of what the test says, so he doesn't need a certain result to prove it. It obviously does affect him since Tim is clearly shaken by Damian's appearance and how it will affect Bruce and his relationship. The way things are going and the fact that Morrison leaves some doubt makes it clear that Damian will most likely turn out not to be his son.

I do not agree that there is any indication that Damian will most likely not be his son. The possibility has been left open, that is the opposite of a clear indication one way or the other, and it can't be both ways. It makes no sense, the clear indicator throughout all of the issues was that Damian is indeed Batman's son, including issue 666 presenting him in omniscient narration as the son of Batman and Talia. But then one hint that made his paternity uncertain and the same scene as this one hint also included a character who is lauded for his observation, intuition and detective skills concluding that he was indeed Bruce's son. This does not undo the original indication, not with one small hint. It does leave it open, but the ambiguity it provides in no way creates a single natural conclusion, not with things like misdirection, red herrings, that are equally possible.

If it didn't matter Alfred wouldn't have told Tim that Bruce wanted to talk to him about it himself. The way the scene was presented was that Bruce and Alfred felt it was an important conversation. It wasn't brushed aside by Alfred as unimportant. I'd dismiss Tim's comments, if Tim weren't established as one of the world's greatest detectives at the age of 13. But his reaction to Alfred's words and tone was that of "the son of Satan is my brother," and it was the end of the "blood test" conversation and scene. Tim knows Alfred, Tim knows Bruce, and he thinks that Damian is Bruce's biological son.

[carabas]

It's Earth-51, you see this in the beginning of FC #1 and per the comments Nix Uotan.It's New Earth. Why would it be Eath-51? Which comments specifically?

It's the Earth Anthro is on. The Earth the opening of FC #1 takes place on, with Metron meating Anthro and giving him fire. And Anthro later on fighting Vandal Savage who shows up later in the same issue on regular DC Earth..

[Choppa]

It's New Earth. Why would it be Eath-51? Which comments specifically?

It's the Earth Anthro is on. The Earth the opening of FC #1 takes place on, with Metron meating Anthro and giving him fire. And Anthro later on fighting Vandal Savage who shows up later in the same issue on regular DC Earth..

As I understood it, the Earth with Anthro was Earth-51 which was destroyed and reborn in Countdown. There is a scene where the monitors are talking and someone mentions that Uotan had been watching E51 and that it had recently been reborn as a Kamandi-style Earth.

Moreover, in one of the later issues, Checkmate goes to that Earth to escape New Earth and that's how we see that it's the past on that Earth, and not New Earth's past. Also there is the JLA's rocket which was diverted off course and fell on E51, which is also shown in the last pages of FC#7.

[carabas]

But Anthro and Kamandi's world have got nothing to do with each other, we saw Kamandi in Darkseid's dungeons on Regular Earth, and it simply makes no sense.

How does Metron giving the people of a dead earth the weapon to fight Darkdeid (which then shows up in cave paintings on Regular Earth) make sense?

And Earth 51 hadn't been reborn as Earth Kirby. It had simply been reborn, and after Final Crisis had ended, a whole bunch of Kirby stuff was moved there. Anthro and Batman aren't Kirby stuff, nor are they in a post-Final Crisis time zone.

[Choppa]

I do not agree that there is any indication that Damian will most likely not be his son. The possibility has been left open, that is the opposite of a clear indication one way or the other, and it can't be both ways. It makes no sense, the clear indicator throughout all of the issues was that Damian is indeed Batman's son, including issue 666 presenting him in omniscient narration as the son of Batman and Talia. But then one hint that made his paternity uncertain and the same scene as this one hint also included a character who is lauded for his observation, intuition and detective skills concluding that he was indeed Bruce's son. This does not undo the original indication, not with one small hint. It does leave it open, but the ambiguity it provides in no way creates a single natural conclusion, not with things like misdirection, red herrings, that are equally possible.

If it didn't matter Alfred wouldn't have told Tim that Bruce wanted to talk to him about it himself. The way the scene was presented was that Bruce and Alfred felt it was an important conversation. It wasn't brushed aside by Alfred as unimportant. I'd dismiss Tim's comments, if Tim weren't established as one of the world's greatest detectives at the age of 13. But his reaction to Alfred's words and tone was that of "the son of Satan is my brother," and it was the end of the "blood test" conversation and scene. Tim knows Alfred, Tim knows Bruce, and he thinks that Damian is Bruce's biological son.

I can see your perspective on it. However, the fact that it hasn't been flat out said still leaves some uncertainty for me. The "proof" that's been shown is very doubtful. I wouldn't be surprised if Morrison wants him to really be Bruce's son, but left that lingering doubt because DC will most likely want to undo it later, which usually seems to happen with his changes.

As for Tim, his whole reaction is very out of character. For one, it makes no sense that he would feel threatened by Damian. And second, he is a smart detective, so why would he just take things at face value and not investigate further?

[carabas]

I think the is-Damian-really-Bruce's-son is largely pointles. He is right now, and at some point in the future, after Morrison's stint as Batman writer, Damian will be revealed to be something else instead.

[BatmanBeatsAll]

thats just what they want you to think, every time someone doesn't want some one to know about something, it never ends up being they way you thought it would be. Otherwise they wouldn't give the hint that your suspicions are correct, it is actually a hint that your suspicions aren;t correct

[RonnieThunderbolts]

thats just what they want you to think, every time someone doesn't want some one to know about something, it never ends up being they way you thought it would be. Otherwise they wouldn't give the hint that your suspicions are correct, it is actually a hint that your suspicions aren;t correct

I don't think that is really true. In fact a whole lot of the time hints that something is amiss are red herrings. At this point I think it is ambiguous, but I think assuming it will be undone after Morrison is pretty much baseless.

[Lorendiac]

As for Tim, his whole reaction is very out of character. For one, it makes no sense that he would feel threatened by Damian. And second, he is a smart detective, so why would he just take things at face value and not investigate further?

To be fair to Tim: If Damian had tried to kill me in order to take my place in Batman's life, I'd feel pretty darn threatened whenever I saw him again from then on.

[Choppa]

To be fair to Tim: If Damian had tried to kill me in order to take my place in Batman's life, I'd feel pretty darn threatened whenever I saw him again from then on.

I meant threatened that he would replace him as Bruce's "real" son, not physically. Although clearly there is merit to that as well.

[Captain Jim]

I fail to understand why Anthro can't be on New Earth (or multiple earths, for that matter). To say he's on a different earth needlessly complicates things and I don't see the point. Unless and until some future story proves me wrong, I consider him to be in "our" past.

[Choppa]

I have to go back and read the issues again. I'm going completely on memory.

[carabas]

I can't see why Antrho would not be on New Earth. He has history with Vandal Savage, who very much is on New Earth.

[thor25]

" and the daughter of the ultimate criminal mastermind got together

thats my problem with Talia she is too much Daddy girl, I wonder why people act as if she were a interesting character and not jus what she is, a extencion of Rash al ghul's character..

for the topic I think he is until morrison or other writer says otherwise...

[Choppa]

thats my problem with Talia she is too much Daddy girl, I wonder why people act as if she were a interesting character and not jus what she is, a extencion of Rash al ghul's character..

for the topic I think he is until morrison or other writer says otherwise...

She's been forced back into that role as of late. But there was a time when she operated on her own and had her own identity. She even worked for Lex Luthor and ran Lexcorp at one point.

[thor25]

She's been forced back into that role as of late. But there was a time when she operated on her own and had her own identity. She even worked for Lex Luthor and ran Lexcorp at one point.

I know but as you say he return to the basic, also when you think in talia you inmediately thinks in "rash's daughter".. aso she was in lexcopr so was Lana lang... um this mean that Talia = Lana??