Sales Figures, Nick Lowe, Wolverine, and BS.

[Novaya Havoc]

I am creating this unto a THREAD!!!! because Nick Lowe has irritated me.

From today's X-Position:

I was wondering why there are so many upcoming X-titles solicited. Don’t you feel that there are too many already? For example, I personally like Wolverine, but is it really necessary to have a billion different titles dedicated to him?

That’s something we hear a lot on the internet, but not in our sales figures. If people stop buying the X-books or books that Wolverine is in, I promise we’ll follow your advice. Only buy the books that you want to read, Mencemor.


"We keep publishing Wolverine books, because we sell so many!"

ANECDOTE, ACTIVATE! Sales figures are based on distribution orders. Not over-the-counter. An LCS can order 50 copies of each Wolverine title solicited, but not necessarily sell out. In fact, they rarely do. You'll see multiples of the Wolverine titles on the stands and then usually get pushed to the back issues bin after so many months.

For example of the inverse effect: today. I pre-ordered a copy of Essential Dazzler Vol. 2. I go to my LCS on release day? They don't have it. They look at me like "Is that out today? Oh, it's probably a distribution error." They didn't order a single copy. Not one. When my LCS had former managers, they ordered about 10 copies of Essential Dazzler Vol. 1, 5 were pull-sold, and the rest were sold out by the end of the day.

The other big Chicago north-side LCS ordered three copies, and all were pulled. "I guess we should have ordered more!" None were on the shelves. Period. Between two large stores in highly populated neighborhoods, there were three "sold" copies of Essential Dazzler Vol. 2, as far as Diamond (or Icv2, when they compile sales) is concerned. Likewise, even if a title sits around on the shelves or moves to the bins, they're still "sales." This is why you see declines; LCS's order less from the distributor if they don't move from the shelves. Sales increase if an issue sells out and they expect to move more issues.

So it irritates me that the entire industry is in this stupid cycle that "Well, look at the numbers! It didn't sell!" or "Look! People really want this new #1, giving this Wolverine title legitimacy!!" Even I -- NOVAYA HAVOC, High Priestess of the Gliteratti -- could not get a freakin' copy of Essential Dazzler I pre-ordered, and only three copies were "sold" in the entirety of Chicago's near-north side today.

I had to get one from the downtown location. And that takes effort. If I didn't care all that much, I never would have even made the purchase today. And the copy I got was the 2nd to last copy available.

So that's my thought on Lowe and his "sales" bullshit, re: Wolverine.

[Bronze Badger]

I am creating this unto a THREAD!!!! because Nick Lowe has irritated me.

From today's X-Position:



"We keep publishing Wolverine books, because we sell so many!"

ANECDOTE, ACTIVATE! Sales figures are based on distribution orders. Not over-the-counter. An LCS can order 50 copies of each Wolverine title solicited, but not necessarily sell out. In fact, they rarely do. You'll see multiples of the Wolverine titles on the stands and then usually get pushed to the back issues bin after so many months.

For example of the inverse effect: today. I pre-ordered a copy of Essential Dazzler Vol. 2. I go to my LCS on release day? They don't have it. They look at me like "Is that out today? Oh, it's probably a distribution error." They didn't order a single copy. Not one. When my LCS had former managers, they ordered about 10 copies of Essential Dazzler Vol. 1, 5 were pull-sold, and the rest were sold out by the end of the day.

The other big Chicago north-side LCS ordered three copies, and all were pulled. "I guess we should have ordered more!" None were on the shelves. Period. Between two large stores in highly populated neighborhoods, there were three "sold" copies of Essential Dazzler Vol. 2, as far as Diamond (or Icv2, when they compile sales) is concerned. Likewise, even if a title sits around on the shelves or moves to the bins, they're still "sales." This is why you see declines; LCS's order less from the distributor if they don't move from the shelves. Sales increase if an issue sells out and they expect to move more issues.

So it irritates me that the entire industry is in this stupid cycle that "Well, look at the numbers! It didn't sell!" or "Look! People really want this new #1, giving this Wolverine title legitimacy!!" Even I -- NOVAYA HAVOC, High Priestess of the Gliteratti -- could not get a freakin' copy of Essential Dazzler I pre-ordered, and only three copies were "sold" in the entirety of Chicago's near-north side today.

I had to get one from the downtown location. And that takes effort. If I didn't care all that much, I never would have even made the purchase today. And the copy I got was the 2nd to last copy available.

So that's my thought on Lowe and his "sales" bullshit, re: Wolverine.

They are diluting the character with this over exposure. A popular character invites lazy writing and poor art in an effort to flood the marketplace. Wolverine should take a sabbatical from all books except X-Force.

[darknessatnoon]

They are diluting the character with this over exposure. A popular character invites lazy writing and poor art in an effort to flood the marketplace. Wolverine should take a sabbatical from all books except X-Force.

It's not about Wolverine. It's about Wolverine as a tactic to dodge real questions about the quality of the books. I'd rather fifty Wolverine appearances a month than two Beast appearances.

[Bronze Badger]

It's not about Wolverine. It's about Wolverine as a tactic to dodge real questions about the quality of the books. I'd rather fifty Wolverine appearances a month than two Beast appearances.

I would just like Beast to act more like Beast and stop with this whole X-Club (Endangered Species Act 2) bull.

[worstblogever]

And if Dazzler had a cameo in X-Men: Origins movie, I bet there'd be big orders of Essential Dazzler. I'd say that the current Wolverine exposure is all movie hype, but they've been saturating LCS with Wolverine appearances for like the past 5 years or more.

[just another user]

You guys make some good points, but I want to hear what Blade X has to say before deciding where I stand on this. I believe he actually works in a comic store.

[jester1436]

I anticipate this thread being closed soon by someone who doesn't enjoy discussions of things like "sales."

[Bronze Badger]

I anticipate this thread being closed soon by someone who doesn't enjoy discussions of things like "sales."

Namely, The Man.

[Novaya Havoc]

WBE:

It's not a character-war thing. I don't want this thread to devolve into that. The point here is pointing out how Lowe and Marvel create a self-fulfilling prophecy re: sales and then go "But YOU!!!! demanded it!"

When you go: "Look, a new Wolverine series! Look, a new Daredevil series! Look, a new Thor series with Coipel art! Look, a new Claremont series!" you create artificial sales with #1's. LCS's order, but it doesn't mean that that one questioner "not buying" an issue affects saying that the sensational first issue was a sell-out hit.

It just had a lot of orders.

To wit: didn't New Exiles #1 apparently "do so well" that it deserved a re-print? Along with New Exiles #2? Yeah, it did. Where is this sensational series now?

So they create the fallacy that "Internet BITCHEZ!!!" have "MAD h8!!!" for Wolverine, but everyone loves him! It's not necessarily the truth of the matter. A "brand" title will naturally sell more than something ordered in smaller amounts, and the distributor (Diamond) selling out doesn't mean the stores sold out their ordered inventories.

Naturally, stores that retain gluts of series issues will likely reduce successive orders over a period of time. But Lowe is mixing the internet (rapid) with monthly serial distributions (slow), often ordered far in advance by LCS's, and that is absolutely disingenuous.

The Essential Dazzler Vol. 2 was just an anecdote to the opposite. Here on the near north side of Chicago, Uncanny X-Men may have moved 40% of the issues purchased by the LCS's from the distributor. But all 100% ordered from the distributor count as "sales."

Meanwhile, Essential Dazzler Vol. 2 will count only three sales for the market, because only three were ordered from the distributor. More may be ordered in the future, sure, but this is now spun as "this trade did not sell well, compared to the Exiles trade" (of which, today, both LCS's I visited had multiple copies).

So when Lowe talks about sales and demand he is being disingenuous, and it promulgates the cycle of what is an actual "hit" at any given month in time.

[Dagger]

It's not about Wolverine. It's about Wolverine as a tactic to dodge real questions about the quality of the books. I'd rather fifty Wolverine appearances a month than two Beast appearances.

This is something I can get behind

[Flinkman]

I have to say I agree with your point, but I also think using our beloved as an example isn't going to hold a lot of weight because, unfortunately, there's that sect of fandom that are convinced nobody likes Dazzler. hell, even people who frequent this board like to think that "nobody outside of CBR likes Dazzler."

it's a stigma she's always had, but on the bright side, it just makes fans like you & me even more outspoken & passionate about her.

[Wind-Breaker]

Namely, The Man.

http://i40.tinypic.com/2r2ytdt.jpg

[Bronze Badger]

Who was the last good X-Editor? I honestly can't remember.

[Bronze Badger]

http://i40.tinypic.com/2r2ytdt.jpg

Does Cronin know you depict him with his underwear outside his pants? I would take him for more of a boxer man.

[Novaya Havoc]

I anticipate this thread being closed soon by someone who doesn't enjoy discussions of things like "sales."

Cronin doesn't like sales being used as an argument for the quality of a given work.

I am arguing Lowe's point that a distributor selling product to a retailer doesn't mean the inventory is a hit, or that it sells well. It's not a discussion of sales = quality.

[Dagger]

Who was the last good X-Editor? I honestly can't remember.

I enjoyed the X-Men under Harras' reign until he lost Kelly and Seagle.

[Bronze Badger]

I enjoyed the X-Men under Harras' reign until he lost Kelly and Seagle.

That was over ten years ago. That makes me sad.

[Jay Dogg]

More Wolverine is FAN-tastic.

I honestly don't have a problem with it. Now if he magically appears in a book from DC, Boom, or Image...then there's a real problem.

[Dagger]

I can understand if the story calls for him to be there, but seriously? I remember the good old days when he was forced to be on EVERY X-Men team.

[Quinnhop]

I'm in love...

BEST POST OF MY LIFE!!

[The Black Guardian]

Cronin doesn't like sales being used as an argument for the quality of a given work.

I am arguing Lowe's point that a distributor selling product to a retailer doesn't mean the inventory is a hit, or that it sells well. It's not a discussion of sales = quality.
While that's certainly true, I don't know of a retailer that is ordering product that they think won't be a hit. Retailers who buy product that doesn't sell won't stay around long.

[Pro]

Of course people aren't going to buy quality books if you waste all your time and money on a dozen average quality Wolverine titles instead of coming up with something new and creative.

It's a ridiculous arguement on Lowe's part.

It's like sayin: "we're going to create a dozen tv diners, and you'll buy them because we don't have time to make you quality food. Then we're going to look at the numbers and say to you:"See people like tv diners because they're not buying quality food, so we'll keep making those tv diners instead of trying to make something new and improved".

[Verminous]

I am creating this unto a THREAD!!!! because Nick Lowe has irritated me.

From today's X-Position:



"We keep publishing Wolverine books, because we sell so many!"

ANECDOTE, ACTIVATE! Sales figures are based on distribution orders. Not over-the-counter. An LCS can order 50 copies of each Wolverine title solicited, but not necessarily sell out. In fact, they rarely do. You'll see multiples of the Wolverine titles on the stands and then usually get pushed to the back issues bin after so many months.

For example of the inverse effect: today. I pre-ordered a copy of Essential Dazzler Vol. 2. I go to my LCS on release day? They don't have it. They look at me like "Is that out today? Oh, it's probably a distribution error." They didn't order a single copy. Not one. When my LCS had former managers, they ordered about 10 copies of Essential Dazzler Vol. 1, 5 were pull-sold, and the rest were sold out by the end of the day.

The other big Chicago north-side LCS ordered three copies, and all were pulled. "I guess we should have ordered more!" None were on the shelves. Period. Between two large stores in highly populated neighborhoods, there were three "sold" copies of Essential Dazzler Vol. 2, as far as Diamond (or Icv2, when they compile sales) is concerned. Likewise, even if a title sits around on the shelves or moves to the bins, they're still "sales." This is why you see declines; LCS's order less from the distributor if they don't move from the shelves. Sales increase if an issue sells out and they expect to move more issues.

So it irritates me that the entire industry is in this stupid cycle that "Well, look at the numbers! It didn't sell!" or "Look! People really want this new #1, giving this Wolverine title legitimacy!!" Even I -- NOVAYA HAVOC, High Priestess of the Gliteratti -- could not get a freakin' copy of Essential Dazzler I pre-ordered, and only three copies were "sold" in the entirety of Chicago's near-north side today.

I had to get one from the downtown location. And that takes effort. If I didn't care all that much, I never would have even made the purchase today. And the copy I got was the 2nd to last copy available.

So that's my thought on Lowe and his "sales" bullshit, re: Wolverine.

Comics shops would not consistently order comics that they couldn't sell just cos' they think Wolverine is popular. Your arguement doesn't stand up, Wolverine books obviously sell.

From your post I would say your problem seems to be with your LCS.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

"We keep publishing Wolverine books, because we sell so many!"

ANECDOTE, ACTIVATE! Sales figures are based on distribution orders. Not over-the-counter. An LCS can order 50 copies of each Wolverine title solicited, but not necessarily sell out. In fact, they rarely do. You'll see multiples of the Wolverine titles on the stands and then usually get pushed to the back issues bin after so many months.

For example of the inverse effect: today. I pre-ordered a copy of Essential Dazzler Vol. 2. I go to my LCS on release day? They don't have it. They look at me like "Is that out today? Oh, it's probably a distribution error." They didn't order a single copy. Not one. When my LCS had former managers, they ordered about 10 copies of Essential Dazzler Vol. 1, 5 were pull-sold, and the rest were sold out by the end of the day.

The other big Chicago north-side LCS ordered three copies, and all were pulled. "I guess we should have ordered more!" None were on the shelves. Period. Between two large stores in highly populated neighborhoods, there were three "sold" copies of Essential Dazzler Vol. 2, as far as Diamond (or Icv2, when they compile sales) is concerned. Likewise, even if a title sits around on the shelves or moves to the bins, they're still "sales." This is why you see declines; LCS's order less from the distributor if they don't move from the shelves. Sales increase if an issue sells out and they expect to move more issues.

Sucks, doesn't it? The current model for selling comics, through Diamond, just plain doesn't work. You know for March not a single title at any publisher sold over 100,000 copies? That's the first time since 2001.

When you work in a market where local stores have to order book 3 months in advance that also has an impact on sales. To give you an example that most of you have no interest in, take Captain Britain & MI13. This is a title which has a lot of critical acclaim but has taken a very long time for positive word to spread, without marvel actually advertising it. False cancellation rumours back in December, sparked a big internet campaign, and a lot of fan based hyping and word spreading in January. The result was that the book leapt over 2,000 in numbers for February's #10. Great.

But March is a totally different picture. A lot of people complained that they were unable to get a copy of March's #11, because their store had reacted to the rumour in December by ordering less copies of the book. As a result sales for March were much lower. But not due to falling interest. Quite the opposite. The problem is that actual final physical sales numbers wont resemble that.

In the meantime this month's #12 gets a 'Wolverine Art Appreciation' variant cover.

Meh.

The model is broken. Everybody can see that. But as long as Diamond have a stranglehold on the industry things won't change. You in the UK we have laws preventing companies gaining a monopoly over one industry. I really wish that were the case Stateside.

[Jota]

Yes, comic books are going to order comics that they don't sell. :rolleyes:
Don't forget the tinfoil hat!

[MartinRedmond]

Yes, comic books are going to order comics that they don't sell.


REALITY, ACTIVATE!

[Agent_Torpor]

Yes, comic books are going to order comics that they don't sell. :rolleyes:
Don't forget the tinfoil hat!

They sure do. Why else are Image titles on the shelves?

I enjoyed the X-Men under Harras' reign until he lost Kelly and Seagle.

Losing Kelly was a plus sign on the ledger column. Marrow? Eccch.

[Westgarth J]

A lot of people complained that they were unable to get a copy of March's #11,

Captain Britain is one of many books that my LCS simply refuse to even order - the others are the Marvel Adventures stuff which apparently get a lot of inquiries from parents, but no orders are placed. I'm in the UK, my local LCS is Forbidden Planet, so it's not like it's a small outfit or anything.

Does anyone know what "sold out at the distributor level" means? I've heard this a few times but I'm confused by the odd qualification of "distributor level", which seems an odd thing to add, but sounds like it might have some specific meaning to the sales stats. I have a suspicion that it just means companies do a small run on a title they don't expect to sell beyond a certain point, and end up without enough copies to meet pre-order demand - am I wrong?

[Steven F.]

Does anyone know what "sold out at the distributor level" means? I've heard this a few times but I'm confused by the odd qualification of "distributor level", which seems an odd thing to add, but sounds like it might have some specific meaning to the sales stats. I have a suspicion that it just means companies do a small run on a title they don't expect to sell beyond a certain point, and end up without enough copies to meet pre-order demand - am I wrong?

It means that every issue printed has been sold at Diamond to the retailers. Basically, retailers can order 50k of an issue, they will print 60k, and when diamond is out of those 60k, they are sold out at the distributor level. Someone will probably come in any moment to say they print to order, which is not the case, and hasn't been for years now.

[Mister Mets]

I am creating this unto a THREAD!!!! because Nick Lowe has irritated me.

From today's X-Position:



"We keep publishing Wolverine books, because we sell so many!"

ANECDOTE, ACTIVATE! Sales figures are based on distribution orders. Not over-the-counter. An LCS can order 50 copies of each Wolverine title solicited, but not necessarily sell out. In fact, they rarely do. You'll see multiples of the Wolverine titles on the stands and then usually get pushed to the back issues bin after so many months.

For example of the inverse effect: today. I pre-ordered a copy of Essential Dazzler Vol. 2. I go to my LCS on release day? They don't have it. They look at me like "Is that out today? Oh, it's probably a distribution error." They didn't order a single copy. Not one. When my LCS had former managers, they ordered about 10 copies of Essential Dazzler Vol. 1, 5 were pull-sold, and the rest were sold out by the end of the day.

The other big Chicago north-side LCS ordered three copies, and all were pulled. "I guess we should have ordered more!" None were on the shelves. Period. Between two large stores in highly populated neighborhoods, there were three "sold" copies of Essential Dazzler Vol. 2, as far as Diamond (or Icv2, when they compile sales) is concerned. Likewise, even if a title sits around on the shelves or moves to the bins, they're still "sales." This is why you see declines; LCS's order less from the distributor if they don't move from the shelves. Sales increase if an issue sells out and they expect to move more issues.

So it irritates me that the entire industry is in this stupid cycle that "Well, look at the numbers! It didn't sell!" or "Look! People really want this new #1, giving this Wolverine title legitimacy!!" Even I -- NOVAYA HAVOC, High Priestess of the Gliteratti -- could not get a freakin' copy of Essential Dazzler I pre-ordered, and only three copies were "sold" in the entirety of Chicago's near-north side today.

I had to get one from the downtown location. And that takes effort. If I didn't care all that much, I never would have even made the purchase today. And the copy I got was the 2nd to last copy available.

So that's my thought on Lowe and his "sales" bullshit, re: Wolverine.

The counter to the "It's not the sales, it's the pre-orders" argument is that eventually retailers should get an impression of how well a Wolverine product is going to sell, and adjust their orders accordingly.

And for Marvel, it really doesn't matter. If there's a conspiracy of retailers consistently ordering too many copies of Wolverine and too few of the Essential Dazzler, Marvel's going to cater to them, because that's where the money is.

[The Black Guardian]

They sure do. Why else are Image titles on the shelves?
Based on what's on the shelves at my LCS, I wouldn't know that Image produces anything other than Spawn, Witchblade, and Invincible. No other Image book gets put on the shelves. They don't even order any, except for the few who have folders.

[DeniseXfrost]

REALITY, ACTIVATE!
This post makes me giggle inside :tongue:

[Porcelain]

I am creating this unto a THREAD!!!! because Nick Lowe has irritated me.

From today's X-Position:



"We keep publishing Wolverine books, because we sell so many!"

ANECDOTE, ACTIVATE! Sales figures are based on distribution orders. Not over-the-counter. An LCS can order 50 copies of each Wolverine title solicited, but not necessarily sell out. In fact, they rarely do. You'll see multiples of the Wolverine titles on the stands and then usually get pushed to the back issues bin after so many months.

For example of the inverse effect: today. I pre-ordered a copy of Essential Dazzler Vol. 2. I go to my LCS on release day? They don't have it. They look at me like "Is that out today? Oh, it's probably a distribution error." They didn't order a single copy. Not one. When my LCS had former managers, they ordered about 10 copies of Essential Dazzler Vol. 1, 5 were pull-sold, and the rest were sold out by the end of the day.

The other big Chicago north-side LCS ordered three copies, and all were pulled. "I guess we should have ordered more!" None were on the shelves. Period. Between two large stores in highly populated neighborhoods, there were three "sold" copies of Essential Dazzler Vol. 2, as far as Diamond (or Icv2, when they compile sales) is concerned. Likewise, even if a title sits around on the shelves or moves to the bins, they're still "sales." This is why you see declines; LCS's order less from the distributor if they don't move from the shelves. Sales increase if an issue sells out and they expect to move more issues.

So it irritates me that the entire industry is in this stupid cycle that "Well, look at the numbers! It didn't sell!" or "Look! People really want this new #1, giving this Wolverine title legitimacy!!" Even I -- NOVAYA HAVOC, High Priestess of the Gliteratti -- could not get a freakin' copy of Essential Dazzler I pre-ordered, and only three copies were "sold" in the entirety of Chicago's near-north side today.

I had to get one from the downtown location. And that takes effort. If I didn't care all that much, I never would have even made the purchase today. And the copy I got was the 2nd to last copy available.

So that's my thought on Lowe and his "sales" bullshit, re: Wolverine.
Essentially, you're saying LCS are incapable of stock management? If that were the case they'd go bust.

Nor is reliance on markdowns (repeatedly ordering stock that doesn't sell and it later below retail) a survivable business structure unless you work on incredibly lean margins: for which you need scale and a helluva lot of free cash flow you don't mind tieing up, neither of which LCS have.

Your LCS didn't reserve one issue, for one person - you have a right to be pissed because you're that person and you received bad service. However, if more people had expressed interest prior there would have been more issues available.

They can't risk ordering 10 of everything, nor can they afford to spend hours analyzing what is going to freakishly sell, they take a steer and hope it evens out - it's not a distribution issue, it's a commercial one, exacerbated by to a fractured retail base with a small stagnant niche market.

Sucks, doesn't it? The current model for selling comics, through Diamond, just plain doesn't work. You know for March not a single title at any publisher sold over 100,000 copies? That's the first time since 2001.

When you work in a market where local stores have to order book 3 months in advance that also has an impact on sales. To give you an example that most of you have no interest in, take Captain Britain & MI13. This is a title which has a lot of critical acclaim but has taken a very long time for positive word to spread, without marvel actually advertising it. False cancellation rumours back in December, sparked a big internet campaign, and a lot of fan based hyping and word spreading in January. The result was that the book leapt over 2,000 in numbers for February's #10. Great.

But March is a totally different picture. A lot of people complained that they were unable to get a copy of March's #11, because their store had reacted to the rumour in December by ordering less copies of the book. As a result sales for March were much lower. But not due to falling interest. Quite the opposite. The problem is that actual final physical sales numbers wont resemble that.

In the meantime this month's #12 gets a 'Wolverine Art Appreciation' variant cover.

Meh.

The model is broken. Everybody can see that. But as long as Diamond have a stranglehold on the industry things won't change. You in the UK we have laws preventing companies gaining a monopoly over one industry. I really wish that were the case Stateside.
I understand your logic. However, to put it into perspective, Tesco, Asda, Sainsburys etc? 3 months is the lead time for any chilled food promotion, Xmas lines will be decided (and forecast for) far in advance of this.

MI13 had a PR issue, if it really is a strong enough title, readers will ask their LCS for it and subsequent orders will go back up. If Marvel decide to cancel because of March's sales figures AND they rose to reasonable numbers after, then Marvel doesn't understand it's numbers (which, for such a sizeable company is highly unlikely).

There isn't a single product sold in any country that isn't affected by stock mangement. Any sales figures, for any sales product are effected by all the points in the supply chain - but that's still the closest you can get to true consumer demand. Heck who hasn't been to the supermarket and not been able to buy something they wanted because it wasn't on the shelf? Comics are no different.

[Blade X]

I am creating this unto a THREAD!!!! because Nick Lowe has irritated me.

From today's X-Position:



"We keep publishing Wolverine books, because we sell so many!"

ANECDOTE, ACTIVATE! Sales figures are based on distribution orders. Not over-the-counter. An LCS can order 50 copies of each Wolverine title solicited, but not necessarily sell out. In fact, they rarely do. You'll see multiples of the Wolverine titles on the stands and then usually get pushed to the back issues bin after so many months.

For example of the inverse effect: today. I pre-ordered a copy of Essential Dazzler Vol. 2. I go to my LCS on release day? They don't have it. They look at me like "Is that out today? Oh, it's probably a distribution error." They didn't order a single copy. Not one. When my LCS had former managers, they ordered about 10 copies of Essential Dazzler Vol. 1, 5 were pull-sold, and the rest were sold out by the end of the day.

The other big Chicago north-side LCS ordered three copies, and all were pulled. "I guess we should have ordered more!" None were on the shelves. Period. Between two large stores in highly populated neighborhoods, there were three "sold" copies of Essential Dazzler Vol. 2, as far as Diamond (or Icv2, when they compile sales) is concerned. Likewise, even if a title sits around on the shelves or moves to the bins, they're still "sales." This is why you see declines; LCS's order less from the distributor if they don't move from the shelves. Sales increase if an issue sells out and they expect to move more issues.

So it irritates me that the entire industry is in this stupid cycle that "Well, look at the numbers! It didn't sell!" or "Look! People really want this new #1, giving this Wolverine title legitimacy!!" Even I -- NOVAYA HAVOC, High Priestess of the Gliteratti -- could not get a freakin' copy of Essential Dazzler I pre-ordered, and only three copies were "sold" in the entirety of Chicago's near-north side today.

I had to get one from the downtown location. And that takes effort. If I didn't care all that much, I never would have even made the purchase today. And the copy I got was the 2nd to last copy available.

So that's my thought on Lowe and his "sales" bullshit, re: Wolverine.

OMG, the end is near, I actually agree with everything you said.

[Blade X]

They are diluting the character with this over exposure. A popular character invites lazy writing and poor art in an effort to flood the marketplace. Wolverine should take a sabbatical from all books except X-Force.

This is something I have been saying for years now (most recently, a few months ago on these boards).

[Joe Acro]

"We keep publishing Wolverine books, because we sell so many!"

ANECDOTE, ACTIVATE! Sales figures are based on distribution orders. Not over-the-counter. An LCS can order 50 copies of each Wolverine title solicited, but not necessarily sell out. In fact, they rarely do. You'll see multiples of the Wolverine titles on the stands and then usually get pushed to the back issues bin after so many months.
Then blame the retailers.

They're only hurting themselves if they're ordering a lot something that they know their customers won't buy.

[Blade X]

WBE:

It's not a character-war thing. I don't want this thread to devolve into that. The point here is pointing out how Lowe and Marvel create a self-fulfilling prophecy re: sales and then go "But YOU!!!! demanded it!"

When you go: "Look, a new Wolverine series! Look, a new Daredevil series! Look, a new Thor series with Coipel art! Look, a new Claremont series!" you create artificial sales with #1's. LCS's order, but it doesn't mean that that one questioner "not buying" an issue affects saying that the sensational first issue was a sell-out hit.

It just had a lot of orders.

To wit: didn't New Exiles #1 apparently "do so well" that it deserved a re-print? Along with New Exiles #2? Yeah, it did. Where is this sensational series now?

So they create the fallacy that "Internet BITCHEZ!!!" have "MAD h8!!!" for Wolverine, but everyone loves him! It's not necessarily the truth of the matter. A "brand" title will naturally sell more than something ordered in smaller amounts, and the distributor (Diamond) selling out doesn't mean the stores sold out their ordered inventories.

Naturally, stores that retain gluts of series issues will likely reduce successive orders over a period of time. But Lowe is mixing the internet (rapid) with monthly serial distributions (slow), often ordered far in advance by LCS's, and that is absolutely disingenuous.

The Essential Dazzler Vol. 2 was just an anecdote to the opposite. Here on the near north side of Chicago, Uncanny X-Men may have moved 40% of the issues purchased by the LCS's from the distributor. But all 100% ordered from the distributor count as "sales."

Meanwhile, Essential Dazzler Vol. 2 will count only three sales for the market, because only three were ordered from the distributor. More may be ordered in the future, sure, but this is now spun as "this trade did not sell well, compared to the Exiles trade" (of which, today, both LCS's I visited had multiple copies).

So when Lowe talks about sales and demand he is being disingenuous, and it promulgates the cycle of what is an actual "hit" at any given month in time.

Again, I agree with everything you said (now I know the world is definitely coming to an end).

[darknessatnoon]

Then blame the retailers.

They're only hurting themselves if they're ordering a lot something that they know their customers won't buy.

As far as I know of the market, a lot of this Wolverine shit is returnable by retailers (and IS returned) but Marvel still gets to clock it as sales through Diamond.

Essential Dazzler is not returnable, therefore retailers are not encouraged by Marvel to risk ordering this item. Because of this, Marvel gets to stick by their idiotic party line that Wolverine sells and anything else is a risk.

Benvaya is right.

[Joe Acro]

As far as I know of the market, a lot of this Wolverine shit is returnable by retailers (and IS returned) but Marvel still gets to clock it as sales through Diamond.And if Marvel's policy is to count those as sales, then the complaint should be directed toward whomever is in charge of that, not Nick Lowe.

[Fatguy]

This is something I have been saying for years now (most recently, a few months ago on these boards).

How revolutionary of you, I'm pretty sure you're the only one talking about how Wolverine is overexposed. No really.

[tetragene]

And if Marvel's policy is to count those as sales, then the complaint should be directed toward whomever is in charge of that, not Nick Lowe.

so as an editor propagating this mess in interviews is he not held accountable for bullshit or something?

[Joe Acro]

so as an editor propagating this mess in interviews is he not held accountable for bullshit or something?What do you want him to say?

"I'd offer less Wolverine books, but they sell well according to our current sales policy, so my hands are tied"?

No, because that would put the blame on the company and not (given the argument he provided) on the fans and shops. As an employee, he can't publicly blame the company.

[darknessatnoon]

And if Marvel's policy is to count those as sales, then the complaint should be directed toward whomever is in charge of that, not Nick Lowe.

Please, the guy's just swerving in an interview. He doesn't care about facts.

FACT! Sage is a beloved and high selling X-Character who had her own solo series for over forty issues. FACT! Nick Lowe hates CC, who is comparable to Jim Shooter in his mind, and has made her persona non grata in the X-Books as revenge against Claremont. FACT! I am not a 12 year old, so I don't care about Wolverine.

[Joe Acro]

Please, the guy's just swerving in an interview. He doesn't care about facts.
If that's so, he wouldn't be the only one.

[Fatguy]

I think the general point being made here is, if there were more Dazzler comics available, it would sell more than Wolverine books. But Marvel is refusing to market Dazzler, due to personal vendetta.

[darknessatnoon]

I think the general point being made here is, if there were more Dazzler comics available, it would sell more than Wolverine books. But Marvel is refusing to market Dazzler, due to personal vendetta.

A vendetta against Jim Shooter. The day he was fired is celebrated annually as a party over at Marvel.

If that's so, he wouldn't be the only one.

Is that supposed to be a burn?

[Blade X]

And if Dazzler had a cameo in X-Men: Origins movie, I bet there'd be big orders of Essential Dazzler. I'd say that the current Wolverine exposure is all movie hype, but they've been saturating LCS with Wolverine appearances for like the past 5 years or more.

The current more then usual escalated saturation of Wolverine titles is definitely due to the movie coming out.

That being said, history has repeatedly shown us that comic book movies RARELY (there are a few exceptions) boost sales on the comics they are based off of. History has definitely shown us that NONE of the X-Men movies succeeded in boosting sales on the X-Men comics. So it is highly unlikely that the Wolverine movie will actually succeed in boosting sales on all of those Wolverine titles flooding the market and taking up valuable shelf space.

[Slant]

I think the general point being made here is, if there were more Dazzler comics available, it would sell more than Wolverine books. But Marvel is refusing to market Dazzler, due to personal vendetta.

The general point is retarded.

[darknessatnoon]

The general point is retarded.

Please summarize what you perceive to be the general point. Use a thesis sentence.

[Novaya Havoc]

And if Marvel's policy is to count those as sales, then the complaint should be directed toward whomever is in charge of that, not Nick Lowe.

Nick Lowe is not an idiot. He just thinks comics readers are, and forces the failed meme that "Wolverine is in HUUUUGE demand, and the internets is just a strange anomaly!"

No.

[Blade X]

Comics shops would not consistently order comics that they couldn't sell just cos' they think Wolverine is popular. Your arguement doesn't stand up, Wolverine books obviously sell.

From your post I would say your problem seems to be with your LCS.

Ordering comics is not an exact science. It is largely a guessing game, even with the most popular characters and titles. Our customers can change their minds (sometimes multiple times) at a drop of a dime when it comes to their purchasing habits. When ordering comics, we have to take into consideration our file customers,our regular comics who do not have a pull list,and any potential brand new customers.

[Porcelain]

As far as I know of the market, a lot of this Wolverine shit is returnable by retailers (and IS returned) but Marvel still gets to clock it as sales through Diamond.

Essential Dazzler is not returnable, therefore retailers are not encouraged by Marvel to risk ordering this item. Because of this, Marvel gets to stick by their idiotic party line that Wolverine sells and anything else is a risk.

Benvaya is right.
Economically, you're only going to offer returns, where the percentage returned is low, otherwise the cost is too much.

[DeadXMan]

A vendetta against Jim Shooter. The day he was fired is celebrated annually as a party over at Marvel.




and thus the dark age of Marvel was set in motion.

[Blade X]

The counter to the "It's not the sales, it's the pre-orders" argument is that eventually retailers should get an impression of how well a Wolverine product is going to sell, and adjust their orders accordingly.

And for Marvel, it really doesn't matter. If there's a conspiracy of retailers consistently ordering too many copies of Wolverine and too few of the Essential Dazzler, Marvel's going to cater to them, because that's where the money is.

true, retailers definitely get an impression on well comics featuring Wolverine (or any other characters) sell. However, like I said in my previous post, the buying habits of customers can change at the drop of a dime.

Marvel's not really catering to retailers orders when they flood the market with all of those unnecessary Wolverine songoing series and spin off mini series and one shots. They are basically flooding the market with all of these Wolverine books because they WRONGLY believe there is going to be a huge demand for Wolverine comics when the movie comes out.

[darknessatnoon]

and thus the dark age of Marvel was set in motion.

This whole thread makes me sick. I am agreeing with you and Blade X and it feels wrong.

[Slant]

Marvel's not really catering to retailers orders when they flood the market with all of those unnecessary Wolverine songoing series and spin off mini series and one shots. They are basically flooding the market with all of these Wolverine books because they WRONGLY believe there is going to be a huge demand for Wolverine comics when the movie comes out.

The Wolverine ongoings are actually pretty good for the most part.

Screw good books. They're unnecessary.

[Blade X]

How revolutionary of you, I'm pretty sure you're the only one talking about how Wolverine is overexposed. No really.

I was talking about how the over exposure of Wolverine will eventually "dilute" the character's popularity.

[Blade X]

As far as I know of the market, a lot of this Wolverine shit is returnable by retailers (and IS returned) but Marvel still gets to clock it as sales through Diamond.

Essential Dazzler is not returnable, therefore retailers are not encouraged by Marvel to risk ordering this item. Because of this, Marvel gets to stick by their idiotic party line that Wolverine sells and anything else is a risk.

Benvaya is right.

First time I heard of this. Do you have a link to where this announcement was made? We have a lot of Wolverine books sitting on our shelves collecting dust that we would like to return.

[Agent_Torpor]

I bet Nick Lowe wears Joe's Jeans and has meticulously-maintained facial hair.

[darknessatnoon]

First time I heard of this. Do you have a link to where this announcement was made? We have a lot of Wolverine books sitting on our shelves collecting dust that we would like to return.

I have a suggestion as to where you can stick them to save space.

[Blade X]

The Wolverine ongoings are actually pretty good for the most part.

Screw good books. They're unnecessary.

That is your opinion and could be debated.

[darknessatnoon]

That is your opinion and could be debated.

That's your opinion is a lame response.

Many of the Wolverine books are good. They are worth buying but not because they are Wolverine stories - but because the creators did good work. They can also do good work on other characters instead of only pleasing the gay bear community who craves a constant stream of Wolverine in plaid being rough and hairy in the woods soft-core porn as well as all the closeted homosexuals on here who need to see him wrestling with Ares and such.

[Steven F.]

It is amazing at how many people can just not get it at all.

For one thing, Marvel doesn't release their sale numbers. Ever. Diamond releases their own numbers. Also, comic books are not returnable, at all, from the direct market, so if retailers keep ordering a book that is not selling, they are stupid and they deserve to go out of business because they obviously make horrible business decisions.

If there was enough demand, Marvel would publish a Dazzler comic. While there is SOME demand, it is not enough. Maybe a oneshot can happen one day. Maybe a mini. Maybe even an ongoing, but it will happen when the market can support it. Marvel would love to publish more books that sell well. They are a business! They are in the business of making money, and people who are acting like Marvel should be there to cater to their needs instead of the needs of the company, are being unrealistic.

Again, I need to stress since people don't get it. Wolverine sells better than any other character. Not because Marvel says it does. He sells well because retailers order more of his books than they do anything. When one Wolverine books sells well, and retailers say they want more (which is what they are doing by continuing to order enough copies to support his books), Marvel then sees they can publish another Wolverine book. When that sells well, Marvel knows they can try it with another. And so on and so forth. Marvel does not control the retailers, they control what Marvel publishes with their orders.

I am one of the people most fed up with the current Marvel direction, I can't stand most of the books they currently publish, but I at least can understand something this simple.

[DeadXMan]

This whole thread makes me sick. I am agreeing with you and Blade X and it feels wrong.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s125/AgeofApocalypse124/exploding_head.gif

[Slant]

It is amazing at how many people can just not get it at all.

For one thing, Marvel doesn't release their sale numbers. Ever. Diamond releases their own numbers. Also, comic books are not returnable, at all, from the direct market, so if retailers keep ordering a book that is not selling, they are stupid and they deserve to go out of business because they obviously make horrible business decisions.

If there was enough demand, Marvel would publish a Dazzler comic. While there is SOME demand, it is not enough. Maybe a oneshot can happen one day. Maybe a mini. Maybe even an ongoing, but it will happen when the market can support it. Marvel would love to publish more books that sell well. They are a business! They are in the business of making money, and people who are acting like Marvel should be there to cater to their needs instead of the needs of the company, are being unrealistic.

Again, I need to stress since people don't get it. Wolverine sells better than any other character. Not because Marvel says it does. He sells well because retailers order more of his books than they do anything. When one Wolverine books sells well, and retailers say they want more (which is what they are doing by continuing to order enough copies to support his books), Marvel then sees they can publish another Wolverine book. When that sells well, Marvel knows they can try it with another. And so on and so forth. Marvel does not control the retailers, they control what Marvel publishes with their orders.

I am one of the people most fed up with the current Marvel direction, I can't stand most of the books they currently publish, but I at least can understand something this simple.

Great post.

[darknessatnoon]

It is amazing at how many people can just not get it at all.

For one thing, Marvel doesn't release their sale numbers. Ever. Diamond releases their own numbers. Also, comic books are not returnable, at all, from the direct market, so if retailers keep ordering a book that is not selling, they are stupid and they deserve to go out of business because they obviously make horrible business decisions.

If there was enough demand, Marvel would publish a Dazzler comic. While there is SOME demand, it is not enough. Maybe a oneshot can happen one day. Maybe a mini. Maybe even an ongoing, but it will happen when the market can support it. Marvel would love to publish more books that sell well. They are a business! They are in the business of making money, and people who are acting like Marvel should be there to cater to their needs instead of the needs of the company, are being unrealistic.

Again, I need to stress since people don't get it. Wolverine sells better than any other character. Not because Marvel says it does. He sells well because retailers order more of his books than they do anything. When one Wolverine books sells well, and retailers say they want more (which is what they are doing by continuing to order enough copies to support his books), Marvel then sees they can publish another Wolverine book. When that sells well, Marvel knows they can try it with another. And so on and so forth. Marvel does not control the retailers, they control what Marvel publishes with their orders.

I am one of the people most fed up with the current Marvel direction, I can't stand most of the books they currently publish, but I at least can understand something this simple.

Great post. You should log on more often.

[Blade X]

I have a suggestion as to where you can stick them to save space.

For the last time, I will not shove those books up your butt.

[darknessatnoon]

For the last time, I will not shove those books up your butt.

http://i44.tinypic.com/70w6lz.jpg

[Jota]

I was talking about how the over exposure of Wolverine will eventually "dilute" the character's popularity.Care to provide a date? Because you've been saying that for a long time. When is it going to happen?

[Blade X]

That's your opinion is a lame response.

Many of the Wolverine books are good. They are worth buying but not because they are Wolverine stories - but because the creators did good work. They can also do good work on other characters instead of only pleasing the gay bear community who craves a constant stream of Wolverine in plaid being rough and hairy in the woods soft-core porn as well as all the closeted homosexuals on here who need to see him wrestling with Ares and such.

It's less of a debatable response and more of a factual statement. Whether or not a person thinks that all of the ongoing Wolverine books are good or bad is their own personal opinion and has nothing to do with the debate at hand about whether or not their are too many damn Wolverine books currently being published.

[Blade X]

Care to provide a date? Because you've been saying that for a long time. When is it going to happen?

It's already happening.

[DeadXMan]

http://i44.tinypic.com/70w6lz.jpg

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr150/DXM616/Uncanny_X-Men_508_008.jpg

[Fatguy]

They can also do good work on other characters instead of only pleasing the gay bear community who craves a constant stream of Wolverine in plaid being rough and hairy in the woods soft-core porn as well as all the closeted homosexuals on here who need to see him wrestling with Ares and such.

I must be one of these!

*self reflects*

[Verminous]

As far as I know of the market, a lot of this Wolverine shit is returnable by retailers (and IS returned) but Marvel still gets to clock it as sales through Diamond.

Essential Dazzler is not returnable, therefore retailers are not encouraged by Marvel to risk ordering this item. Because of this, Marvel gets to stick by their idiotic party line that Wolverine sells and anything else is a risk.

Benvaya is right.

So Marvel would continually screw themselves out of money to maintain an illusion of Wolverines popularity?

[Verminous]

Please, the guy's just swerving in an interview. He doesn't care about facts.

FACT! Sage is a beloved and high selling X-Character who had her own solo series for over forty issues. FACT! Nick Lowe hates CC, who is comparable to Jim Shooter in his mind, and has made her persona non grata in the X-Books as revenge against Claremont. FACT! I am not a 12 year old, so I don't care about Wolverine.

A fact is not an opinion that you have formulated in your mind. Nick Lowe has made Sage 'persona non grat' in the x-books cos' he hates CC. That's pretty much a stretch there. Seems like the kind of thought process a 12 year old might follow.

[Verminous]

Nick Lowe is not an idiot. He just thinks comics readers are, and forces the failed meme that "Wolverine is in HUUUUGE demand, and the internets is just a strange anomaly!"

No.

Nothing to do with sales figures then?

[Verminous]

Ordering comics is not an exact science. It is largely a guessing game, even with the most popular characters and titles. Our customers can change their minds (sometimes multiple times) at a drop of a dime when it comes to their purchasing habits. When ordering comics, we have to take into consideration our file customers,our regular comics who do not have a pull list,and any potential brand new customers.

Right, so you order what you can sell. Thanks for confirming my point.

[Fatguy]

Verminous, you should invest in getting to know the Multi-Quote button! Snuggled right in there between Quote and Quick reply.

[Verminous]

It's already happening.

Right, cos' when a character is less popular they usually have more titles released! Wait a minute that's not right.

[Verminous]

Verminous, you should invest in getting to know the Multi-Quote button! Snuggled right in there between Quote and Quick reply.

Thanks but no thanks.

[Fatguy]

Thanks but no thanks.

My bad, billions of posts IS way better than just one containing all your points.

[Verminous]

My bad, billions of posts IS way better than just one containing all your points.

Glad we cleared that up.

[Dagger]

Nothing to do with sales figures then?
Sales figures=/=actual sales of the title. It just equals the number of issues the lcs ordered. And my lcs has TONS of back Wolverine issues.

[Verminous]

Sales figures=/=actual sales of the title. It just equals the number of issues the lcs ordered. And my lcs has TONS of back Wolverine issues.

They must sell or it would not be financially viable to start a new series.

Do all comics shops have copious amounts of back issues? I don't know, neither do you.

[Dagger]

They must sell or it would not be financially viable to start a new series.

Do all comics shops have copious amounts of back issues? I don't know, neither do you.
That's why they started the Rogue, Gambit, Nightcrawler and Jubilee series. Because they were financially viable. That's why they lasted 12 and 6 issues each.

No, but you never hear of Wolverine selling out, unless there's an uber-popular creative team on the title.

[Verminous]

That's why they started the Rogue, Gambit, Nightcrawler and Jubilee series. Because they were financially viable. That's why they lasted 12 and 6 issues each.
.

Yes but there wasn't a Nightcrawler:First Class or Jubilee Origins. Wolverine is popular he already has a number of ongoing and team titles he appears in. There is precedent for a Wolverine title selling well.

[KJ_81]

Nick Lowe is not an idiot. He just thinks comics readers are, and forces the failed meme that "Wolverine is in HUUUUGE demand, and the internets is just a strange anomaly!"

No.

Huh?

The Wolverine books do, unfortunately, sell pretty well in comparison to other material. There's also the highly promoted movie out soon, so it makes sense to have a lot of product out now. Look at Iron Man last year, around the time of the movie, Marvel could have released anything with an IM logo on it, and it would have sold.

Yes, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone arguing that there isn't too many Wolverine titles and appearances, but unfortunately, that's the way things are going to be while they're selling, IE the people have spoken.

And your points about OMGDAZZLER, are, as usual, distracting and immature, so I'll ignore those.

[darknessatnoon]

And your points about OMGDAZZLER, are, as usual, distracting and immature, so I'll ignore those.

Thank you for taking the mature route.

[DeadXMan]

dose no think the negive reaction dazzler fan gave toward New Excal and in uncanny is the reason why they aren't doing anything with her?

now I'm not trying to start a flame war here, but from what I gather her fans likes only the solo. which was basically dazz getting into wacky predicaments through out the MU month in and month out. and that's fine to a point. Sooner or later it has to change with the world. cause I realy can't the dazzler solo lasting more then 12 issue in this comic book age.

[Blade X]

Right, so you order what you can sell. Thanks for confirming my point.

More like you order what you THINK you can sell based on what has sold at your store at the time you are filling out the order form. The thing is, what sold one month, might not sell 2 months down the line and vis versa. Remember, retailers have to place their orders 2 months in advance, so things can either change or remain the same in that time.

[Blade X]

Right, cos' when a character is less popular they usually have more titles released! Wait a minute that's not right.

Punisher currently has 2 ongoing monthly titles. Ghost Rider has a soon to be ending ongoing title and a recently ended spin off mini series. There are 2 ongoing Teen Titans series. Need I say more.

FYI, "popular" doesn't always equal sales. Just because a character is popular DOES NOT mean that multiple titles (or even a single title) of said popular character will sell well and/or continue to sell well for many years to come. My point was/is that the over exposure of popular characters can (BUT NOT ALWAYS) eventually lead to those said characters loosing their "sales power" (like Lobo,Punisher,and Ghost Rider).

[Steven F.]

More like you order what you THINK you can sell based on what has sold at your store at the time you are filling out the order form. The thing is, what sold one month, might not sell 2 months down the line and vis versa. Remember, retailers have to place their orders 2 months in advance, so things can either change or remain the same in that time.

Ever hear of FOC? Retailers can change their orders up to just a few weeks before the issue is released.

[Blade X]

Ever hear of FOC? Retailers can change their orders up to just a few weeks before the issue is released.

Of course I heard of the FOC, but that doesn't help when 2 issues of a new comic or a comic with a new big event storyline is solicited to come out in the same month. It also doesn't help when pull customers request a comic and then change their minds past the FOC cut off date (which is 3 weeks before the book is released).

[Novaya Havoc]

Sales figures=/=actual sales of the title. It just equals the number of issues the lcs ordered. And my lcs has TONS of back Wolverine issues.

Exactamundo.

[Verminous]

More like you order what you THINK you can sell based on what has sold at your store at the time you are filling out the order form. The thing is, what sold one month, might not sell 2 months down the line and vis versa. Remember, retailers have to place their orders 2 months in advance, so things can either change or remain the same in that time.

Ok but I'm thinking that Wolverine has been a high seller for quite some time. If people stop buying his titles today in two months time LCS's will have reduced their orders and so Marvel will get the message, that Wolverine doesn't sell. There must be consistent proof in the last 1-2 years that Wolverine does sell. So, more titles.

[Verminous]

Punisher currently has 2 ongoing monthly titles. Ghost Rider has a soon to be ending ongoing title and a recently ended spin off mini series. There are 2 ongoing Teen Titans series. Need I say more.

FYI, "popular" doesn't always equal sales. Just because a character is popular DOES NOT mean that multiple titles (or even a single title) of said popular character will sell well and/or continue to sell well for many years to come. My point was/is that the over exposure of popular characters can (BUT NOT ALWAYS) eventually lead to those said characters loosing their "sales power" (like Lobo,Punisher,and Ghost Rider).


Ghost Rider is going on hiatus after dropping to a mini-series. Punisher has spun out of an event and his MAX title covers a different publishing area for Marvel. Currently Wolverines sales power is strong. Marvel are capitalising.

[Verminous]

Exactamundo.

Exactamundo........What, that post does not prove anything.

[Slant]

Well, my one LCS is clearly proof of how they all work, right?

[Blade X]

Ok but I'm thinking that Wolverine has been a high seller for quite some time. If people stop buying his titles today in two months time LCS's will have reduced their orders and so Marvel will get the message, that Wolverine doesn't sell. There must be consistent proof in the last 1-2 years that Wolverine does sell. So, more titles.

The current OLD MAN LOGAN story in WOLVERINE with it's great art,a story many fans seem to love,and variant covers is a high seller. WOLVERINE ORIGINS,the Brian K. Vaughn mini series,and X-FORCE (with the help of gimmicks like variant covers and event crossovers) are mid range sellers. The latest issue of the WOLVERINE MANIFEST DESTINY mini series sold 30,000 and those numerous Wolverine one shots usually sell in the 2mid to high 20,000's. WOLVERINE FIRST CLASS sells around 15,000 and falling (the same was also true for WEAPON X FIRST CLASS).

[Blade X]

Ghost Rider is going on hiatus after dropping to a mini-series. Punisher has spun out of an event and his MAX title covers a different publishing area for Marvel. Currently Wolverines sales power is strong. Marvel are capitalising.

The phrase "going on hiatus" is a kinder and gentler PC way of saying "this book is canceled due to low sales".

So what if the relaunched (for the umpteenth time) Punisher series has spun out of an event crossover (AGAIN) and the MAX series is covering a different publishing area, the character currently DOES NOT sell well enough to justify multiple titles.

[Jota]

The current OLD MAN LOGAN story in WOLVERINE with it's great art,a story many fans seem to love,and variant covers is a high seller. WOLVERINE ORIGINS,the Brian K. Vaughn mini series,and X-FORCE (with the help of gimmicks like variant covers and event crossovers) are mid range sellers. The latest issue of the WOLVERINE MANIFEST DESTINY mini series sold 30,000 and those numerous Wolverine one shots usually sell in the 2mid to high 20,000's. WOLVERINE FIRST CLASS sells around 15,000 and falling (the same was also true for WEAPON X FIRST CLASS).Wolverine doesn't sell and Old Man Logan is a great story... Seriously dude, get help!

[Joe Acro]

And my lcs has TONS of back Wolverine issues.And your shop has made a poor business decision.

[Blade X]

Wolverine doesn't sell and Old Man Logan is a great story... Seriously dude, get help!

Seriously dude, read more carefully.

1. I said WOLVERINE (THE CHARACTER) DOES NOT sell books like he used to. The day's of Wolverine appearing in a book and causing said books sales to spike are long over. By the same token, the days of ANY solo Wolverine book being a CONSISTENT top 5 seller WITHOUT the help of a sales gimmick are also long over.

2. I NEVER said that the OLD MAN LOGAN story arc is a "great story" (I refuse to read that crap). However, I did say that the art in that story is very good and that people in general (NOT ME) seem to be enjoying the story. IMO, I think that the MAIN reason why the OLD MAN LOGAN story is selling so well is MAINLY due to the art and variant covers then the actual generic story.

[[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite]

Only Wolverine makes it.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=265933

Says it all, really.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Not really, no.

Following that glorious reasoning, Marvel would have a, what 2% market share?

Different markets. Sheesh.

[Azure]

So according to what Nick Lowe is saying, why can't Marvel create a comicbook called "Spiderman, Captain America, Hulk, Wolverine and Iron-Man", which will sell literal millions of issues and make a massive profit, and then use this profit to create other books with lesser-spotlighted characters like, yeah, Dazzler? If a comic series where Punisher teams up with Jean Grey to thoroughly punish drugdealers will make Marvel a profit, what's stopping them from doing this and then using the money on hiring a low-profile art and writing team to create, oh, let's say a new New X-Men series?

[Slant]

Because that would make no sense?

[Steven F.]

Because that would make no sense?

Slant, stop trying to talk sense in this thread. Silly.

[Novaya Havoc]

Slant, stop trying to talk sense in this thread. Silly.

Stop being such a sycophant for Marvel Corporate, Steven F.!

[Steven F.]

Stop being such a sycophant for Marvel Corporate, Steven F.!

I just understand supply and demand, it has nothing to do with Marvel. Like I said in my original post, I don't even LIKE most of what Marvel is doing, especially on the x-titles which I mostly find to be awful.

[Novaya Havoc]

I just understand supply and demand, it has nothing to do with Marvel. Like I said in my original post, I don't even LIKE most of what Marvel is doing, especially on the x-titles which I mostly find to be awful.

Harumph. I will accept this argument... for now.

But only if you spoil your Top 10 list for me early, and let me know if Dazzler is on it.

[Cicero]

It is amazing at how many people can just not get it at all.

For one thing, Marvel doesn't release their sale numbers. Ever.

They do, actually. Once annually, each ongoing title offered for subscription carries a "statement of ownership," required by postal regulation, which lists, among other things, the mean per-issue sales of the preceding year, and the total sales of the issue published closest to the date of the statement's filing.

Diamond releases their own numbers. Also, comic books are not returnable, at all, from the direct market, so if retailers keep ordering a book that is not selling, they are stupid and they deserve to go out of business because they obviously make horrible business decisions.

If there was enough demand, Marvel would publish a Dazzler comic. While there is SOME demand, it is not enough. Maybe a oneshot can happen one day. Maybe a mini. Maybe even an ongoing, but it will happen when the market can support it. Marvel would love to publish more books that sell well. They are a business! They are in the business of making money, and people who are acting like Marvel should be there to cater to their needs instead of the needs of the company, are being unrealistic.

Again, I need to stress since people don't get it. Wolverine sells better than any other character. Not because Marvel says it does. He sells well because retailers order more of his books than they do anything. When one Wolverine books sells well, and retailers say they want more (which is what they are doing by continuing to order enough copies to support his books), Marvel then sees they can publish another Wolverine book. When that sells well, Marvel knows they can try it with another. And so on and so forth. Marvel does not control the retailers, they control what Marvel publishes with their orders.

I am one of the people most fed up with the current Marvel direction, I can't stand most of the books they currently publish, but I at least can understand something this simple.

I generally agree with your other points, though, if sometimes not in such strong terms.