Reconciling modern Batwoman's existence with Alfred's comments/Last Rites flash backs

[Tanjint]

In Morrison's Batman run, Alfred mentions 'glamor girls' like "Kathy Kane" in talking about women Bruce has dated. In Last Rites, there are flashbacks of the original style Batwoman and Batgirl and some weird seemingly lovelorn situation that I don't fully grasp....anyway, as far as us continuity geeks go- is this Kathy Kane the same as modern Batwoman?

I read all the Dini and Morrison but I don't read every Bat-title...has Bruce met modern Batwoman? Has this already been addressed? Is a heartbreak from Bruce what turned Kathy Kane les? Anyone care to explain?


-T

[RonnieThunderbolts]

They aren't the same. I can say that for sure, having heard it directly from Greg Rucka, that Kate Kane is not the old school Batwoman.

[Tanjint]

I wonder what Morrison would say. I bet there's a great story there.


-T

[RonnieThunderbolts]

I wonder what Morrison would say. I bet there's a great story there.


-T

I'm sure there is. The Kathy/Katy Kane references in the Last Rites flashback sort of imply if not outright show that this version of Batwoman died. I'd be interested to see exactly how she fits in.

Bette "Flamebird" Kane is going to appear in the new Batwoman's Detective arc as well. Before Infinite Crisis Kathy Kane was still killed, but wasn't ever Batwoman, and was referred to as Bette's aunt a few times.

[carabas]

I think it is really simple. It is obvious from the story that she broke Bruce's heart. And then there's what Dick said about him being a circus kid and knowing all about Kate/Kathy Kane. Dick has a gaydar, Bruce does not.

He simply didn't pick up on her being as much into Catwoman as he was, and this was years ago, she probably was still somewhat confused or in denial about her own sexual identity, not out of the closet yet, maybe only just starting to experiment...

[Tanjint]

I read 52 but I can't remember if anything is said that indicates that those were her first forays into crimefighting or if the DCU, since her 'return' is in accord with the idea that she's existed before...oh yeah it's a post infinite crisis thing...whoah.

-T

[Tanjint]

forgot to say props carabas, i like the theory

-T

[dreyga2000]

In Morrison's Batman run, Alfred mentions 'glamor girls' like "Kathy Kane" in talking about women Bruce has dated. In
-T

Maybe she was insecure and in the closet and set a up a date with Wayne to throw people off...

We'll that's what I thought when I read it...

[RonnieThunderbolts]

I read 52 but I can't remember if anything is said that indicates that those were her first forays into crimefighting or if the DCU, since her 'return' is in accord with the idea that she's existed before...oh yeah it's a post infinite crisis thing...whoah.

There were definite indicators that it was her first attempt into crime fighting, her interactions with Nightwing were their first meetings, there was discussion in book of the appearances of a new crime fighter.

I think it is really simple. It is obvious from the story that she broke Bruce's heart. And then there's what Dick said about him being a circus kid and knowing all about Kate/Kathy Kane.t.

Firstly, the current Kate Kane isn't a circus performer. Like the original she is an heiress, but she isn't the circus performer. Secondly, when she and Dick Grayson met in 52 it was a first meeting, if he knew Batwoman/Kathy Kane from the Silver Age, they wouldn't have been strangers in this first encounter.

Really there is no debate on the matter, the person completely in charge of Kate Kane's fate for the time being has already addressed this. Greg Rucka has said that this Kate Kane is not the same as the old Kathy Kane, they simply aren't the same people. At some point in the 12-14 issue Detective arc they will be showing her origin.

[BurningStarIV]

At some point in the 12-14 issue Detective arc they will be showing her origin.
We're only getting about a year of Batwoman Detective Comics stories? LAME.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

We're only getting about a year of Batwoman Detective Comics stories? LAME.

Well, we're getting a 12-14 issue arc starring Batwoman in Detective with this creative team for sure, beyond that, nothing has been confirmed. Whether she gets her own title, continues in Detective, or something else, is yet to be announced.

[Choppa]

Did anything ever explain why Batman let her run around Gotham doing her thing without checking her out?

Or why Nightwing never bothered to tell him?

And now that I think about it, weren't Dick and Tim with Bruce on their "soul searching" journey? How was Dick in Gotham during that period to run into Batwoman?

[jgiannantoni05]

The old Batwoman is back in continuity.

Kathy Kane (from Last Rites)= old Batwoman

Kate Kane= new lesbian Batwoman

They're probably related somehow.
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[RonnieThunderbolts]

Did anything ever explain why Batman let her run around Gotham doing her thing without checking her out?

Or why Nightwing never bothered to tell him?

And now that I think about it, weren't Dick and Tim with Bruce on their "soul searching" journey? How was Dick in Gotham during that period to run into Batwoman?

Dick returned before Tim and Bruce did and encountered her twice. The second time he gave her an 'official' batarang for Christmas/the holidays.

[BurningStarIV]

Well, we're getting a 12-14 issue arc starring Batwoman in Detective with this creative team for sure, beyond that, nothing has been confirmed. Whether she gets her own title, continues in Detective, or something else, is yet to be announced.
I shouldn't complain. It's certainly better than nothing. And if she continues in Detective Comics or gets her own series, I'll be totally excited.

[ArtEvans]

As far as I'm concerned, the Batwoman in Bruce's nightmares/dreams were false memories created by Darkseid's minions picking around in his brain. If he can hallucinate a false world where his parents are alive, he can hallucinate a false world with a Batwoman.

Grant Morrison would be best to stay mum on the subject--that way, those who don't want the old Batwoman in continuity can be happy, and if those who liked her choose to believe she was part of continuity, they can believe that.

But never forget that sluggy thing was messing with his brain.

[jgiannantoni05]

As far as I'm concerned, the Batwoman in Bruce's nightmares/dreams were false memories created by Darkseid's minions picking around in his brain.
No. And you're going to look pretty stupid when old Batwoman starts showing up in flashbacks, as she probably will in Detective Comics upcoming (featuring the new Batwoman).

The Silver Age stories are back. People can't fight that. They all didn't happen like they originally did, but they're back in some form or another.
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[nepenthes]

I don't think they're supposed to be reconciled. who cares


The Silver Age stories are back. People can't fight that. They all didn't happen like they originally did, but they're back in some form or another.

Not ALL the Silver Age stories are back. I'm pretty sure it's a case of them being discarded unless explicit mentioned again. And in the case of Last Rites we are dealing with hallucinations and false memories so yeah, good chance she was never real at all.

[ArtEvans]

I don't they're supposed to be reconciled. who cares




Not ALL the Silver Age stories are back. I'm pretty sure it's a case of them being discarded unless explicit mentioned again. And in the case of Last Rites we are dealing with hallucinations and false memories so yeah, good chance she was never real at all.

Exactly. Just because Morrison "considers" them in continuity doesn't mean they *are*.

[Captain Jim]

As far as I'm concerned, the Batwoman in Bruce's nightmares/dreams were false memories created by Darkseid's minions picking around in his brain. If he can hallucinate a false world where his parents are alive, he can hallucinate a false world with a Batwoman.

I don't buy that. My recollection is that there were certain parts of the storyline in which the memories were correct, and other parts where they were obviously not. They weren't all mixed up. And the Batwoman parts were among the correct memories.

[jgiannantoni05]

In case some of you haven't realized, DC is having a bit of a Silver Age revival.

The Silver Age Batman stories are back (many as part of Batman's Black Casebook), whether one likes that or not. And I know many don't. And I have my concerns.

For people who don't like that, the good news is that all the stories probably didn't happen like they originally did. Most seem to have happened in a darker more serious way. In particular, it seems the alien stories (and other especially outrageous stories) have probably been changed to have something to do with drug-induced hallucinations caused by chemical-using villains and other criminals. That is what Last Rites suggests, and even earlier issues in Morrison's run.

And look at what Morrison did to the Silver Age stories he used. For example, Morrison changed the original Batman of Zur En Arrh story to a hallucination caused by Prof Milo's gas, where Batman's freudian ego caused him to wish he had superpowers to fight crime.
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[Tanjint]

I never hope to reconcile all continuity but just a writer's own. For example, when I read Frank Miller Batman, I only count Miller, O Neil/Adams, and Azzarello's stuff as canon because it doesn't contradict that way. I would just care about Morrison's own continuity (maybe with some Dini tossed in for good measure) but Morrison is part of 52 and Last Rites which contain both Batwomen.

In other words, if Morrison's DC work ignored modern Batwoman...I would too, but both Batwomen appear when reading Morrison's "run". I know it was probably Rucka who actually wrote the Batwoman stuff in 52 but nonetheless, there it is in comics that are also part of Morrison's DC continuity....

-T

[nepenthes]

In case some of you haven't realized, DC is having a bit of a Silver Age revival.

The Silver Age Batman stories are back (many as part of Batman's Black Casebook), whether one likes that or not. And I know many don't. And I have my concerns.

For people who don't like that, the good news is that all the stories probably didn't happen like they originally did. Most seem to have happened in a darker more serious way. In particular, it seems the alien stories (and other especially outrageous stories) have probably been changed to have something to do with drug-induced hallucinations caused by chemical-using villains and other criminals. That is what Last Rites suggests, and even earlier issues in Morrison's run.

And look at what Morrison did to the Silver Age stories he used. For example, Morrison changed the original Batman of Zur En Arrh story to a hallucination caused by Prof Milo's gas, where Batman's freudian ego caused him to wish he had superpowers to fight crime.

Yes. But I still don't see how a Silver Age revival or the return of Batmite etc automatically equals ALL silver Age stories coming back into continuity. Every character, every issue, every event. There's simply no reason to go that far, or any basis to conclude that's whats happened. If something is explicity mentioned, then it's in. the rest is subject to question or your own personal whim. It's a matter of degrees.

When Morrison says in interview "it all happened" I assumed he was speaking generally, as in the era and the style. It doesn't actually mean Batman wore a rainbow suit or fought a cowboy version of himself in the Wild West.

[Thok]

No. And you're going to look pretty stupid when old Batwoman starts showing up in flashbacks, as she probably will in Detective Comics upcoming (featuring the new Batwoman).

The Silver Age stories are back. People can't fight that. They all didn't happen like they originally did, but they're back in some form or another.

At least one of the Batwoman stories referenced was Batman 153, which has to fall under the collection of "weird SF stories that Bruce hallucinated." (That's the whole "soul dying on an alien world" scene in Last Rites and falls under the same category as Robin Dies at Dawn and Zur-En-Arrh; there's no way the story as stated can happen in a "realistic" manner.)

[jgiannantoni05]

nepenthes: Think what you want. I think you just don't want em in. The Black Casebook, Last Rites, and Morrison's interviews more suggest they are in (in some form or another).

It doesn't actually mean Batman wore a rainbow suit or fought a cowboy version of himself in the Wild West.
I said the stories probably didn't happen as they originally did. Morrison hints at this in Last Rites when he refers to a number of Silver Age stories, but changes some of their story to suggest modern changes. For example, Morrison refers alot to Batman 153 (1963), which originally was about two aliens trying to steal silver from Earth, but Morrison omits the mastermind aliens, instead simply referring to the villains as "they" and throwing in new stuff about Batman wondering if he and Batwoman were drugged (and the drugs were making them think they were on another planet).
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[nepenthes]

nepenthes: Think what you want. I think you just don't want em in. The Black Casebook, Last Rites, and Morrison's interviews more suggest they are in (in some form or another).

Yes, some events are in, we've seen that quite clearly. But again (and I don't know how else to say this) while *some* events are obviously canon now it doesn't necessarily mean ALL are included. Do you see the difference? It doesn't have to be all or none.

and I have no problem with the Silver Age being incorprated back in, not all all. I just dont think that what Morrison has done is an excuse to now accept ALL pre-cris events as canon from here on, even in "some form another".


I said the stories probably didn't happen as they originally did. Morrison hints at this in Last Rites when he refers to a number of Silver Age stories, but changes some of their story to suggest modern changes. For example, Morrison refers alot to Batman 153 (1963), which originally was about two aliens trying to steal silver from Earth, but Morrison omits the mastermind aliens, instead simply referring to the villains as "they" and throwing in new stuff about Batman wondering if he and Batwoman were drugged (and the drugs were making them think they were on another planet).

agreed. this is quite cleaer.

[jgiannantoni05]

It doesn't have to be all or none.
It didn't have to be all or none. I understand that.

But IMHO and others', everything more suggests that Morrison is going the "all" route. Not the "some" route.

But, I believe you that you're aren't biased. We'll just have to agree to disagree on what it all adds up to.

IMHO Morrison's creation of the Casebook, his references to many many Silver Age stories, and his interviews which indicate that sees all as having happened more add up to all the Silver Age stories as presumptively in canon (in some form). I think you're interpretaton of the interviews would only work if you consider the interview in isolation, and not consider that Morrison then proceeded to create the Casebook and use a ton of SA stories for Last Rites.

A Casebook that has the Rainbow Creature story from Batman 134 (among others), but not the rest of the SA stories right, because some would be too outrageous to have happened, so Morrison couldn't have intended those to be in canon?
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[Lemurion]

I think the question is not so much how many or which silver age stories are in canon as much as what is the new default. From what Morrison's written it appears that they default to canon (albeit sometimes as skewed interpretations of what "actually" happened with regards to canon) so the ones outside canon are the exceptions not the rule.

I would say the vast majority of such stories are in canon - or at least something very similar is.

[Will44]

Why must DC do things like this? The current regime at DC seems to be trying very hard to bring back the characters and stories from when they were kids and 20 somethings buying comics, and are alienating the CURRENT crop of kids/20-somethings buying comics.

No wonder DC got 27% of the direct market in the latest sales chart.

[Qoorl]

So.... is Batman vs. Predator in continuity now? Eh Eh?

[Hawk_fan]

Why must DC do things like this? The current regime at DC seems to be trying very hard to bring back the characters and stories from when they were kids and 20 somethings buying comics, and are alienating the CURRENT crop of kids/20-somethings buying comics.

No wonder DC got 27% of the direct market in the latest sales chart.
Why do fans keep using this comment all the time when something from the Silver Age comes back in some manner? Wouldn't things like this be new to new readers anyway? I would think they'd enjoyed these treasures....as long as they made sense in the current DCU.

Also, Bette Kane said in her appearance in Young Justice #21 (I think that's the right number), before "New" Earth when she met Batgirl/Cassandra Cain..."Batgirl huh?....been there done that." I wonder if she actually meant that she was Bat-Girl for a time.

All in all ...I do believe writers need to be careful about what past history they inject (or omit) into their stories. We don't need anymore "Hawkman disasters" running amuck in the DCU.

[nepenthes]

I wonder if kids in the Silver age complained that DC were re-introducing all these Golden Age characters but with a sci-fi twist. comics are a cyclical medium. and it's not like everytime you pick up a DC book they;re forcing you to grapple with 40 yr old concepts that only your dad can understand.

[Captain Jim]

I wonder if kids in the Silver age complained that DC were re-introducing all these Golden Age characters but with a sci-fi twist. comics are a cyclical medium. and it's not like everytime you pick up a DC book they;re forcing you to grapple with 40 yr old concepts that only your dad can understand.

I was a kid in the silver age and I was absolutely fascinated by it. :biggrin:

[Tanjint]

so both Kathy Kane, original Batwoman and the newer Kate Kane are lesbians? One Bruce dug and one Dick digs?

-T

[Hullababy]

As far as I am concerned, any story can be regarded as canon depending on the reader's viewpoint unless explicitly stated otherwise.

And the modern Batwoman is not the same as the old Batwoman.

[Apple Gooncha]

If he can hallucinate a false world where his parents are alive,

Does he do this in "Last Rites" or has it happened in a different issue? I feel like I have read a full issue/elseworld or something that focused on that, but I could be mistaken.

[DarkKnghtJared]

I think there was a Kathy Kane, and she did break Bruce's heart, but not because of her orientation.

In #682 of Batman, in her first appearence on panel in the story, she tells Bruce, "I have almost a decade of life experience on you. I'm richer than you, I'm smarter than you, and there are no rules to this."

Later on, when Bruce is talking to Dick about her, Robin says "There's something about her I don't trust."

During the whole run of RIP, Hurt and Jet and all of them make it explicitly clear that they are richer than rich, can do whatever they want, and have been around for centuries.

I'm thinking that Kathy Kane was an agent for the Black Glove, and that Hurt sent Kathy to see if Bruce is worthy enough for them to eventually destroy.

[DarkKnghtJared]

Does he do this in "Last Rites" or has it happened in a different issue? I feel like I have read a full issue/elseworld or something that focused on that, but I could be mistaken.

It was in Last Rites--basically, some of Darkseid's minions during Final Crisis were using him to clone an army, and were trying to extract his memories so that the army can have his drive. The hallucinations were them, through a dream altering being known as the Lump, putting his mind in a fantasy world so as to distract him.

[carabas]

so both Kathy Kane, original Batwoman and the newer Kate Kane are lesbians? One Bruce dug and one Dick digs?I'd find that hilariously ironic if they retconned that in, considering Kathy Kane was originally brought in due to Seduction Of The Innocent, to defuse rumblings that Batman and Robin might be gay.

[Tanjint]

People keep thinking I'm trying to reconcile canon but it's not that...it's just one writer's run! I'm just trying to reconcile Morrison's over-arching Batman tale within itself, like trying to make sense of a movie's plot you know?

I don't care how it fits into over-all canon, character's original creation etc.... I'm just trying to understand that weird Kathy Kane breaking Bruce's heart in Last Rites sequence

-T

[Tanjint]

It was in Last Rites--basically, some of Darkseid's minions during Final Crisis were using him to clone an army, and were trying to extract his memories so that the army can have his drive. The hallucinations were them, through a dream altering being known as the Lump, putting his mind in a fantasy world so as to distract him.

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-T