What is with all the Marvel hate from DC fans?

[Limelantern]

I play around on a few other boards, some of them exclusively DC and I see a whole lot of anti-Marvel people on them. Way more than I see anti-DC on Marvel boards. So what is going on here? I see complaints like "Marvel puts too much drama in their characters" "Marvel powerlevels are too patheticly low" (that one comes up a lot) "Marvel puts Wolverine in everything!" (For a company that only makes Batman and Superman movies I find that one too ironic) "Every cartoon made from Marvel has been a failure while Bruce Timm only creates art!"

So why all the hate? Why can't they live and let live with the competition?

[carabas]

I have over the years seen quite a lot of DC hate from Marvel fans, but rarely vice versa.

[Chino]

Fanboyism
The collective outlook and behavior of a group of people concerning a subject (movies, games, hardware, comic book characters, etc.) which when challenged results in an antagonistic, passionate, and unreasoned response.
Rampant Fanboyism can be found on most internet message boards when such hot button subjects are discussed. You know a fanboy when you see one.

Example:
Fanboy 1: "Stupid people didn't get this movie"
Fanboy 2: "If you didn't like the movie, you should'nt come here and trash it."
Fanboy 3: It's unrealistic because.....___(fill in the blank about how this movie about flying superheroes is unrealistic.___

-Urban Dictionary.Com

[Limelantern]

.......isn't any fantasy type story unrealistic?




...you know, by nature..........

[SeritoNiN]

Cartoons, movies and other media aside, when it comes down to comic books and story telling, DC is just miles ahead of Marvel.

Marvel has a simplistic formula. It's more to the liking of each reader. DC has a lot of rich history that it embraces, so if you missed a big story arc from 1987, you won't get the references toward it now in a certain book.

Whereas Marvel pretty much tells a big story and never really goes back to it, they just keep doing something else.

DC fans naturally hate the simplicity of Marvel's quick and easy reads, where Marvel fans, being "Marvel Zombies", usually don't read much DC therefore don't understand what they're missing and tend to be less biased.

Been reading comics for 20 years, I'm 28 in 3 weeks. Through my collecting, Marvel has been better, DC has been better, they both go through periods of high's and low's. Personally, as it stands today, I feel DC is more engrossing. I know stories they're telling me right now will be referred to months, even years from now, whereas I know this whole Dark Reign thing is just another gimmick that will be quickly forgotten by another status quo change in a year.

I don't see the need to hate either company, Marvel does tend to milk an idea beyond the point of over saturation, but overall both companies have some good books and some bad books, it's just to be honest, DC fans are usually older, expect more, have more knowledge of certain titles and the industry itself and have a need for a certain amount of quality out of every book they read, that Marvel seems to generally ignore in order to push a new #1 issue or status quo -- whatever will make a sale and get them the bigger percentage in the diamond charts.

[marvelbhoy]

Cause they know deep down that dc aint as good as marvel..


we alll know it.


cmon does anyone even understand what dc universe is actually the real one, what its origins were and how the hell it all connects together.:wink:

[Chino]

I don't read anything outside of Batman and Superman of the DCU. The other characters just don't do anything for me. Also, outside of Batman and Superman, the villains just don't compare to Marvel villains IMO. Crisis events, multiple versions and legacy heroes are also reasons I don't read much DC. I can't say I dislike characters like The Flash or Green Lantern, I've just never really paid much attention.

[NickFury90]

Cartoons, movies and other media aside, when it comes down to comic books and story telling, DC is just miles ahead of Marvel.

Marvel has a simplistic formula. It's more to the liking of each reader. DC has a lot of rich history that it embraces, so if you missed a big story arc from 1987, you won't get the references toward it now in a certain book.


You don't see anything wrong with that? That really limits the demographic who could read a book, but because they didn't read something way back in '92, they're going to be lost? Because Marvel tries something new, thats bad? Maybe they should just bring back all their Silver Age characters/elements so they can make all their 30+ year old fans happy. Thats a great, longterm bussiness outlook.

Anyway, I don't see the reason to really hate either company. Marvel has got Brubaker, Bendis, Fraction, Millar, Ellis(whenever he feels like it anyway), DnA, etc. DC has Morrison, Johns, Dini, Simone, Willingham, etc. Whats to hate on when they all do quality stories?

[Tikal]

Cartoons, movies and other media aside, when it comes down to comic books and story telling, DC is just miles ahead of Marvel.

Marvel has a simplistic formula. It's more to the liking of each reader. DC has a lot of rich history that it embraces, so if you missed a big story arc from 1987, you won't get the references toward it now in a certain book.

Whereas Marvel pretty much tells a big story and never really goes back to it, they just keep doing something else.

DC fans naturally hate the simplicity of Marvel's quick and easy reads, where Marvel fans, being "Marvel Zombies", usually don't read much DC therefore don't understand what they're missing and tend to be less biased.

Been reading comics for 20 years, I'm 28 in 3 weeks. Through my collecting, Marvel has been better, DC has been better, they both go through periods of high's and low's. Personally, as it stands today, I feel DC is more engrossing. I know stories they're telling me right now will be referred to months, even years from now, whereas I know this whole Dark Reign thing is just another gimmick that will be quickly forgotten by another status quo change in a year.

I don't see the need to hate either company, Marvel does tend to milk an idea beyond the point of over saturation, but overall both companies have some good books and some bad books, it's just to be honest, DC fans are usually older, expect more, have more knowledge of certain titles and the industry itself and have a need for a certain amount of quality out of every book they read, that Marvel seems to generally ignore in order to push a new #1 issue or status quo -- whatever will make a sale and get them the bigger percentage in the diamond charts.

i'll agree with this but from a comic book fan point of view it's nice to read a book and not have to have 15 years of prior knowledge to understand whats going on.
many times i've tried to get into dc comics and just been lost due to the constant references to the past.
while i have no problem with books such as fable making references to it's own past
books like bat man superman teen titans justice league making references to things that are so intermixed and from so many different writers point of view is kind of annoying.
but.... if you are able to stay with a book regardless of good writer or bad writer and keep track of all this history... i can see why dc fans would complain about marvel fans... i'd say they probably take it more serious

[Karl O'Neill]

we are just so jealous, that's all.

I mean, marvel have jeph loeb and mark miller running their company.

sales=quality. says some...............

[NickFury90]

Yeah, just pretend Judd Winnick and Bruce Jones don't exist. PLEASE don't turn this into a DC vs Marvel thread, DC isn't close to perfect either.

[pariah-1972]

If it wasn't for Geoff Johns Dc would be in third place instead of second.

[G. Boney]

Never understood the company loyalty nonsense, myself. I read what books I like...regardless of publisher.

[striderhirryu2]

I bought the first issue of Secret Invasion as a first comic ever. Understood the premise, looked like a good start for a story and went back and trade bought Mighty Avengers, New Avengers Captain America, Thor, and Thunderbolts. I bought the first issue of Final Crisis and got skull fucked into confusion and stopped at DC right there. Even if DC is winning the artistic fight, I feel my scenerio above is why Marvel holds 50% of the market while DC slowly shrinks.

[pariah-1972]

Never understood the company loyalty nonsense, myself. I read what books I like...regardless of publisher.I blame Stan Lee cause he made you feel like you were part of a club.

[Global Honored]

I bought the first issue of Secret Invasion as a first comic ever. Understood the premise, looked like a good start for a story and went back and trade bought Mighty Avengers, New Avengers Captain America, Thor, and Thunderbolts. I bought the first issue of Final Crisis and got skull fucked into confusion and stopped at DC right there. Even if DC is winning the artistic fight, I feel my scenerio above is why Marvel holds 50% of the market while DC slowly shrinks.

That's a pretty solid statement right there. I have no dog in this fight and buy books from both companies, have for years. This testimony though speaks volumes (no pun intended) on their market strategies and/or success.

[NickFury90]

I bought the first issue of Secret Invasion as a first comic ever. Understood the premise, looked like a good start for a story and went back and trade bought Mighty Avengers, New Avengers Captain America, Thor, and Thunderbolts. I bought the first issue of Final Crisis and got skull fucked into confusion and stopped at DC right there. Even if DC is winning the artistic fight, I feel my scenerio above is why Marvel holds 50% of the market while DC slowly shrinks.

Starting with Final Crisis was a baaaaaaaaaaad move. I would stuck with something simpler, like Paul Dini's Detective Comics run or Grant Morrison's JLA run.

[Global Honored]

I blame Stan Lee cause he made you feel like you were part of a club.
as opposed to...
http://www.hollywoodjesus.com/graphic_novel/lsh/adventure_comics_247.jpg
...those uppity DC b@sta@rds!

[striderhirryu2]

Starting with Final Crisis was a baaaaaaaaaaad move. I would stuck with something simpler, like Paul Dini's Detective Comics run or Grant Morrison's JLA run.

I watched most of the DC Animated U, and had a major hardon for Grant Morrison and JG Jones with Marvel Boy so it seemed like a safe bet. Man how wrong I was.

[NickFury90]

^How does Superman not get in? He's the most powerful superhero ever damnit :confused:

[pariah-1972]

^How does Superman not get in? He's the most powerful superhero ever damnit :confused:Ever? (ten characters)

[NickFury90]

Ever? (ten characters)

Hey, 10,000th post!

I mean c'mon...he's Superman. I'm pretty sure he could have beat all the Skrulls in Secret Invasion #7 by himself if he was bored enough.

[SMARTASS8]

"Marvel fans, being "Marvel Zombies", usually don't read much DC"


Obviously, this isn't true for every Marvel fan, but it seems like it. Almost every DC hating "Zombie" I read online follows their dislike with mentioning they rarely if ever have read a DC book(closed mindedness may lead you to miss something you might even like and gives you little reason to hate something), everyone has the same personality and is unrelatable(hasn't been like that since the early 70's; Bendis seems to only have 1 or 2 personalities as part of his repertoire and Zombies love him), Batman is their only good hero(is written as the least relatable what with his genius, pinnacle of human strength, is able to unarm any foe no matter their powers, and has the personality of a robot), and their costumes are juvenile(I don't care how many upgrades Marvel gives their heroes costumes, you'd look like a freak if you wore it in real life).

It seems like a lot of DC fans are either ex-Marvel fans, read both companies, or have read Marvel in the past. As for myself, I hate JoeyQ's Marvel but was a Zombie who still read DC for 20 years. I now read only DC and indies. Making the entire Marvel Universe a depressing place rivaling the UK's 2000AD and turning almost every "hero" into a disloyal killer sickens me. So many Zombies say that anyone who disagrees with JoeyQ's direction just wants everything to remain like the Silver Age even though there has been more change, death, and legacies in the DCU than Marvel has ever had. There is a big difference between progression for a character(Brubaker, Slott) and writing a character so out of character just so you can force them into the storyline you want to tell(Millar, Bendis, Ellis).

[pariah-1972]

Hey, 10,000th post!

I mean c'mon...he's Superman. I'm pretty sure he could have beat all the Skrulls in Secret Invasion #7 by himself if he was bored enough.Off the top of my head Dr. Fate or Dr. Strange could probably easily take him cause he is vulnerable to magic.


I'm still waiting for Dr. Alchemy to turn his suit into Kryptonite and then he would have to run around naked.:evilsmile:

[Fat Cobra]

Its because Marvel rapes DC at everything. Sales, popularity etc. And everyone likes to hate what is popular.

[NickFury90]

Its because Marvel rapes DC at everything. Sales, popularity etc.

Aren't sales=popularity the same thing? And if sales=better, Hannah Montanna is clearly destined for the Rock 'n' Roll hall of fame with Michael Jackson, Prince, Elvis, etc.

[SMARTASS8]

I blame Stan Lee cause he made you feel like you were part of a club.

JoeyQ makes you feel like you're in a gang where you have to hate the opposition and trash them every chance you get no matter if they're weaker than you. He often seems like a less classy version of Fagin sending his band of angry, agressive kids out onto the streets. At least the most vocal internet Zombies sound like kids.

[Fat Cobra]

Aren't sales=popularity the same thing? And if sales=better, Hannah Montanna is clearly destined for the Rock 'n' Roll hall of fame with Michael Jackson, Prince, Elvis, etc.

I never said either company was better than the other, so I don't see where Hannah Montana fits in. You see, you automatically assumed I thought Marvel was better. I wonder why...

[Michael P]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granfalloon

[Henker]

I see hate about equally on both sides of the fence. I suppose it has to be with which company you're a bigger fan of. If you're a bigger Marvel fan you'll notice more hate from DC fans, and vice versa. People tend to more readily notice criticism aimed at things they like, rather than things they don't care much for.

[NickFury90]

I never said either company was better than the other, so I don't see where Hannah Montana fits in. You see, you automatically assumed I thought Marvel was better. I wonder why...

Well, before you kindly went back and edited the post, you simply had a "popular = better" argument, which doesn't work for crap. Also, obviously if something is more popular(I.E. lots of people who all have different opinions), more people are going to be hating it. Thats just basic math.

[pariah-1972]

JoeyQ makes you feel like you're in a gang where you have to hate the opposition and trash them every chance you get no matter if they're weaker than you. He often seems like a less classy version of Fagin sending his band of angry, agressive kids out onto the streets. At least the most vocal internet Zombies sound like kids.I have no love for Joe Q but i've never heard him say anything bad about DC....

[Fat Cobra]

Well, before you kindly went back and edited the post, you simply had a "popular = better" argument, which doesn't work for crap. Also, obviously if something is more popular(I.E. lots of people who all have different opinions), more people are going to be hating it. Thats just basic math.

Your right. I did edit my post. And then you quoted it before I edited it. And nowhere in your post do I say Marvel is better than DC. I said Marvel is more popular and sells more than DC. As you said yourself popularity =/= better. I don't think you read what I posted clearly. So...fail.

[Michael P]

A granfalloon, in the fictional religion of Bokononism (created by Kurt Vonnegut in his 1963 novel Cat's Cradle), is defined as a "false karass." That is, it is a group of people who outwardly choose or claim to have a shared identity or purpose, but whose mutual association is actually meaningless.

[SMARTASS8]

I have no love for Joe Q but i've never heard him say anything bad about DC....


My friend, you have a lot of Googleing to do. I'll get you started.

This is one of the earliest disparaging remarks he made towards DC. It is also said to be what led Paul Levitz to refuse to ever work with Marvel until after JoeyQ leaves(Bendis made it worse by making a public announcement at a con that he wanted to do a Batman/Daredevil book but DC wouldn't let him).

http://www.observer.com/node/45932

Next is one of his more recent Twittering trashes.

http://twitter.com/JoeQuesada/status/1469667182

There's tons more. Pretty much any con appearance by JoeyQ or Tom Brevoort is going to have them.

[NickFury90]

How dare JoeyQ insult his business rivals! He acts like its some kind of competition or something.

[shades of eternity]

Think religion, only involving tights :tongue:

[paulski]

I have over the years seen quite a lot of DC hate from Marvel fans, but rarely vice versa.

It works both ways, but, yeah, I've seen far, far, FAR more rubbish from Marvel Zombies concerning DC than the other way round.

[DeadXMan]

Yeah, just pretend Judd Winnick and Bruce Jones don't exist. PLEASE don't turn this into a DC vs Marvel thread, DC isn't close to perfect either.

Marvel had them when they were good. :biggrin:

[ALEX-23]

I don't hate DC, its just not my cup of tea!

[DeadXMan]

^How does Superman not get in? He's the most powerful superhero ever damnit :confused:

cause he's a racist, mass murdering, pimping, dick.

http://superdickery.com/images/stories/dick/97_4_0000058.jpg
http://superdickery.com/images/stories/dick/614_4_190.jpg
http://superdickery.com/images/stories/dick/98_4_0377.jpg

[SMARTASS8]

cause he's a racist, mass murdering, pimping, dick.

http://superdickery.com/images/stories/dick/97_4_0000058.jpg
http://superdickery.com/images/stories/dick/614_4_190.jpg
http://superdickery.com/images/stories/dick/98_4_0377.jpg

So he's basically like the "heroes" from JoeyQ's Marvel. Supes has got nothing on the current takes on Moon Knight and Iron Man.

[DeadXMan]

Tony should be taking notes on the shit Supes dose to his friends.

http://superdickery.com/images/stories/dick/1296_4_135.jpg
http://superdickery.com/images/stories/dick/1027_4_098.jpg
http://superdickery.com/images/stories/dick/216_4_186.jpg
http://superdickery.com/images/stories/dick/bitchpunch1a.jpg

and this is the age Dan wants to go back to.

[Michael P]

The most common granfalloons are associations and societies based on a shared but ultimately fabricated premise. As examples, Vonnegut cites: "the Communist Party, the Daughters of the American Revolution, the General Electric Company, the Independent Order of Odd Fellows—and any nation, anytime, anywhere." A more general and oft-cited quote defines a granfalloon as "a proud and meaningless association of human beings."

[Fabian]

I tried getting into DC but they just didn't want me in. Everything at DC just always seems to revert back to the status quo.

Of course, it happens at Marvel too with Spider-Man's marriage and lack of legacies but not to the extent of DC.

DC always has their earths and original character around and hardly anything new. I came in when Kyle Rayner was introduced and people where still bitching about Hal Hordan. Hell, people still wanted Barry Allen. I don't even know what Kyle does anymore.

At Marvel, I know where the main characters stand and what's happening (even if they are stupid). At DC, I don't even even know what Earth it's happening in.


But I LOVE Vertigo.

[Sean Whitmore]

Because some people are stupid.


I don't know how we're four pages in, there aren't multiple answers to this question.


SEAN

[Sean Whitmore]

That answer also works if you switch "Marvel" and "DC"'s places in the question, by the way.


SEAN

[pariah-1972]

I'm not anti Dc i'm just anti sidekicks.

[Fabian]

That answer also works if you switch "Marvel" and "DC"'s places in the question, by the way.


SEAN

That's ridiculous; DC requires me to know about pre-crisis Superboy and Superman when compared to post-crisis Superman in relation to Supreme Kingdom Superman to the power of Supergirl by the exponent of Krypton. I used to be a math major in college and I still got more poon than this logic.

[Fabian]

Double post Earth-2 Pre-Crisis reply

[Drcharles]

They are all in the same universe anyway !
What i don't understand is, how close the two companies seem to act on the same sort of topic, ie, at the moment there seesm to be a explosion of Villain related titles, theres now a third Avengers team ( Dark Avengers) and I hear that the JLA will reform into a kick ass team of heroes, because the current line-up aren't up to the job. Capt America is now dead, and the closest counter part that DC have, Batman, is also reported Dead..............
The two companies are so close, and yet so different, but the rivalry is quite fun.......especially when they have the crossovers, which I really hope they will restart doing very soon.

[SMARTASS8]

That's ridiculous; DC requires me to know about pre-crisis Superboy and Superman when compared to post-crisis Superman in relation to Supreme Kingdom Superman to the power of Supergirl by the exponent of Krytpon. I used to be a math major in college and I still got more poon than this logic.

How is an evil alternate universe Superman(boy) any different than the Dark Beast that was floating around Marvel? Or Exiles?

How is Superman, who only has one origin and is the only one still alive, any different than Spider-Woman? She had at least 3 origins and then Bendis merged them into a new one even though his revisions have now contradicted other characters' histories like Bova and the High Evolutionary.

What about Spider-Man? They want us to believe that all the previous stories happened AND they still get to have their new status quo? Instead of just having Doctor Strange do a mindwipe, they've made things so confusing you don't know what was changed because of Mephisto, what never happened, and what is because of all the retcons the new Spider-team keeps plugging into their title to make the angry fans happy. It reminds me of Post-Crisis DCU(80's) where they wanted a new status quo so badly, they didn't think ahead enough to realize they were creating more problems than they were solving.

Also, are you using your post as an excuse to brag about "poon" that you received in college? If so, you are definitely one of JoeyQ's.

[Libaax]

Never understood the company loyalty nonsense, myself. I read what books I like...regardless of publisher.

Well said, i dont understand it either. I dont care about DC or marvel i care about some of their good books i read.

I dont have any loyalty to a company or a character only to good stories.

I dont read any Batman comics now and he is my favorite superhero. I dont support GM's run. Im wating for Detecive comics. No loyalty to anything but good stories.

[Sean Whitmore]

That's ridiculous; DC requires me to know about pre-crisis Superboy and Superman when compared to post-crisis Superman in relation to Supreme Kingdom Superman to the power of Supergirl by the exponent of Krytpon.

DC requires you to know this if you're reading Batman, does it?


SEAN

[Violently Apathetic]

Could be tallest poppy syndrome.

Or maybe some of them are embittered Marvel fans (like me).

More than likely Sean Whitmore nailed it when he said some people are stupid.

[Fabian]

How is an evil alternate universe Superman(boy) any different than the Dark Beast that was floating around Marvel? Or Exiles?
Dark Beast was only involved in X-titles. I read non X-titles for years without knowing Dark Beast even existed. Exiles is a different issue since they're only in one title and it's just "what if?" with a continuous storyline.

How is Superman, who only has one origin and is the only one still alive, any different than Spider-Woman? She had at least 3 origins and then Bendis merged them into a new one even though his revisions have now contradicted other characters' histories like Bova and the High Evolutionary.
How many Kryptons have their been? How many Zods have their been? Who is the last survivor of Krypton? Why are there 5 Supergirls? I shouldn't have to be asking these questions about a company's flagship character. Spider-Woman is not on the same status level as Superman.

What about Spider-Man?

One More Day was dumb too. I'm not defending it.



Also, keep in mind that I do love me some Vertigo.
DC requires you to know this if you're reading Batman, does it?
Jason Todd.

[Violently Apathetic]

Jason Todd.

Pretty sure that all you need to know about Jason Todd is that he once was a dead Robin and now he's not anymore. It's not essential to know about Superboy Prime's origins to understand it, or at least no more so than you need to know about Secret Wars and the Beyonder's entire history to read to read a story with Venom. 'Black alien goo' just about covers it.

[4thHorseman]

Dark Beast was only involved in X-titles. I read non X-titles for years without knowing Dark Beast even existed. Exiles is a different issue since they're only in one title and it's just "what if?" with a continuous storyline.

So other than some major storylines, where all has Superboy Prime been seen?


How many Kryptons have their been? How many Zods have their been? Who is the last survivor of Krypton? Why are there 5 Supergirls? I shouldn't have to be asking these questions about a company's flagship character. Spider-Woman is not on the same status level as Superman.

There's been...what...3 Kryptons, 4 Zods (well, three since the Russian one was a different character influenced by one of the other Zods), and are there still 5 Supergirls? That's like saying there's still 10 Spidermans or however many there have been.

And remember, Superman's been around for...what, over 70 years? How long as Spider Woman been around again?


Jason Todd.

If I recall from the annual, they gave a short blip of who Superboy Prime was and how it effected everything. It might have been stupid, but they explained who he was. And if you didn't read the annual (nor did you have to), you would have just been fine with the character.

[Michael P]

The granfalloon technique is a method of persuasion in which individuals are encouraged to identify with a particular granfalloon or social group. The pressure to identify with a group is meant as a method of securing the individual's loyalty and commitment through adoption of the group's symbols, rituals, and beliefs. In social psychology the concept stems from research by the British social psychologist Henri Tajfel, whose findings have come to be known as the minimal group paradigm. In his research Tajfel found that strangers would form groups on the basis of completely inconsequential criteria. In one study Tajfel subjects were asked to watch a coin toss. They were then designated to a particular group based on whether the coin landed on heads or tails. The subjects placed in groups based on such meaningless associations between them have consistently been found to "act as if those sharing the meaningless labels were kin or close friends."

[Shellhead]

Comics have become expensive enough that many fans pick either DC or Marvel and just stick with those comics. That decision is easier to live with if you arbitrarily decide to hate the other company. The reality is that the past differences between DC and Marvel are fairly minimal today. DC's shining icons have become tarnished while Marvel's more "realistic" characters have that lost that edge to Marvel's sliding time scale.

[LtMarvel]

I would argue that one can get enough of a super hero fix by reading some of the titles in one company, and thus saving enough money to buy non-super hero comics.

That's what I decided some 25 years ago...and I've never looked back.

[Sean Whitmore]

Jason Todd.

Was dead, now alive. See also: Bucky.


SEAN

[SMARTASS8]

How many Kryptons have their been? How many Zods have their been? Who is the last survivor of Krypton? Why are there 5 Supergirls? I shouldn't have to be asking these questions about a company's flagship character. Spider-Woman is not on the same status level as Superman..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiderwoman

I think there has been just as many Spider-Woman as there has been Supergirls. The other Supergirls are all dead(unless you consider Power Girl even though she has a different name and alias; that's like comparing War Machine to Iron Man). The current one is basically the same character as the one introduced in the 50's who just had her Silver Age origin retold a few years ago with a only minor differences(like what Ellis did with Iron Man).



Also, keep in mind that I do love me some Vertigo.



I'm not a big fan of Vertigo since Karen Berger keeps having a pissing war with DC in terms of what characters they can use even though they were all originally DC's characters.:biggrin:



Jason Todd



Vision. Is he the creation of Ultron? Is he a new entity or made from the original Human Torch's scraps? Is his personality all his own or is he just a duplication of Wonder Man's? Who is the Vision that's a member of the Young Avengers? This character has probably had as many back and forth changes/retcons to his origin than any character at DC.

I think both DC and Marvel have confusing parts to their Universe's history. DC's may seem worse at times since they've basically been around over 20 years longer than Marvel(other than bringing Cap back in Avengers #4, Stan Lee originally didn't want to include their Golden Age stories; Roy Thomas, among others, started retconning most of those old stories back into continuity). While Marvel may currently have a slightly tighter present day continuity, JoeyQ's "we don't need no stinkin' continuity" is making their universe's history practically as complicated as DC's. It may be good for new readers now, but if they don't stick around, the only ones left are the people who are going to be confused as to what counts and what doesn't. Once another EIC comes along who actually read Marvel comics before getting the job, he'll have a lot of cleaning up to do. 10 years ago Marvel had the most streamlined history for a superhero universe. With all the contradictions that the different writers/editors have left in due to their lack of research or just not caring have made Marvel in need of a reboot that includes more than just Spider-Man.

[section 8]

Because some people need to keep a "pack mentality" to justify shouting "we are better than them" and feel some faint shadow of a sense of pride in their sad shallow lives.

[Kusanagi]

I never could get into DC proper (love Vertigo to death), but I never saw the need to hate on a company just cause it's not my thing.

[Jared]

DC requires you to know this if you're reading Batman, does it?


No, DC does require you to read Final Crisis if you're reading Batman currently. And to understand Final Crisis, you need a DC encyclopedia and a stash of psychotropic drugs.

Both companies have their issues. If I had to bet on Joe Q vs Dan Didio in the Thunderdome, and I'd demand a "Both Mangled and Killed" option.

[Sean Whitmore]

No, DC does require you to read Final Crisis if you're reading Batman currently.

They actually came up with a non-FC possibility for Batman's disappearance for the people only reading Batman, but that's beside the point. You nailed it here:

Both companies have their issues.

That's just plain all there is to it.


SEAN

[pariah-1972]

Poor Dark Horse:frown:

[NickFury90]

Was dead, now alive. See also: Bucky.


SEAN

But as a brainwashed cyborg assassin for Russia. And somehow is actually really awesome.

No, DC does require you to read Final Crisis if you're reading Batman currently.

I also thought Dr.Hurt was the devil, and Bruce Wayne is whooping his ass in Hell right now. Either way, he's "dead"/in another dimension.

Both companies have their issues. .

They also have trades, hardcovers, and eventually Omnibuses if you wait long enough.

[Jared]

They actually came up with a non-FC possibility for Batman's disappearance for the people only reading Batman

And then they screwed the pooch on that by including two FC tie-in issues to close out the RIP trade.

Poor Dark Horse
Their stuff is too unconnected for people to develop any sense of loyalty, or antipathy for the company the way fans do with Marvel and DC. Hellboy has nothing to do with Star Wars which has nothing to do with Yusagi Jimbo which has nothing to do with Conan, etc..

[Jared]

But as a brainwashed cyborg assassin for Russia. And somehow is actually really awesome.

Yes, I think Cap fans have been much more pleased with Buckey's return than Bat fans have with Jason Todd's. Partly that's result of execution, but also the very premises are not as similar as they first appear. Buckey was killed so long ago that most readers never saw him except in flashbacks. And Cap hasn't had any new Buckeys (that I know of) since his death. His death has been a part of Cap's backstory, but it hasn't been nearly has important for him as Todd's death has been for Batman.

For a Marvel fuckup that rivals Jason Todd, you have to look to Sins Past or One More Day in Spider-Man.


I also thought Dr.Hurt was the devil, and Bruce Wayne is whooping his ass in Hell right now. Either way, he's "dead"/in another dimension.

Dr. Hurt is The Devil, but Darkseid took over most of the Earth and shot Batman with the Omega Sanction. Now Batman is stuck in prehistoric times, though the heroes think he's dead. I believe characters have already referred to Darkseid killing him, but I may be wrong.

[Shellhead]

Their stuff is too unconnected for people to develop any sense of loyalty, or antipathy for the company the way fans do with Marvel and DC. Hellboy has nothing to do with Star Wars which has nothing to do with Yusagi Jimbo which has nothing to do with Conan, etc..

I've been reading DC and Marvel for decades, and I have finally reached the point where I just don't care about their respective universes anymore. Stick around long enough, and everything that you ever liked or disliked about various characters will be flipped back and forth again. One time too many, and you too will realize that none of it really matters. Hellboy on the other hand is all under the creative control of one talented guy, and he keeps it consistently great.

[Sean Whitmore]

I liked Hellboy until he had a team-up with Madman that I didn't read. I haven't been able to understand any Hellboy story since.


SEAN

[pariah-1972]

I've been reading DC and Marvel for decades, and I have finally reached the point where I just don't care about their respective universes anymore. Stick around long enough, and everything that you ever liked or disliked about various characters will be flipped back and forth again. One time too many, and you too will realize that none of it really matters. Hellboy on the other hand is all under the creative control of one talented guy, and he keeps it consistently great.I'm starting to get that way too lately i have been more into independent and creator owned comics (superhero and non-superhero alike)

I've been reading Witchblade a bit and i am really loving Stephan Sejic's work.

[howyadoin]

I've been reading DC and Marvel for decades, and I have finally reached the point where I just don't care about their respective universes anymore. Stick around long enough, and everything that you ever liked or disliked about various characters will be flipped back and forth again. One time too many, and you too will realize that none of it really matters.I'm pretty much at that point now. There are individual characters I miss since I quit buying comics in the fall, but it sounds like the Marvel and DC universes are in pretty sad shape.

[Roquefort Raider]

Trying to be loyal to a publisher who has time and again proven that fans are little more than a means to an end is just a recipe for disappointment. That has applied to both Marvel and DC in the past.

Much better to just pick up a title when things seem to be interesting and drop it when they go bad. This strategy clears up a lot of money that can go into buying new stuff. It's amazing how many indy titles there are out there with something to say, and in which the word "reboot" is still unknown.

[Karl O'Neill]

well said mr raider.

[TheAmazingSpidey]

I like both, but I love Marvel and I only like DC. If DC didn't have Batman, and his related characters, though, I'd probably never bother with the DC Universe.

I think Marvel has better characters--heroes and villains--stories, talent, everything. I've always been a Marvel guy. Not only for the reasons mentioned, but also because Spider-Man is my favorite character in the history of anything. Since I'm a huge Spider-Man fan, I prefer his universe and the characters he's associated with.

I mean, a hardcore Superman fan is more inclined to like DC, just like a hardcore Wolverine fan would be more inclined to like Marvel, most likely.

I've never slammed DC, or "hated" on it, even though I'm a hardcore Marvel fan. Even if I didn't like DC at all, I still wouldn't talk shit about it. I think it's just a stupid thing to do, and what the hell is the point of it? There is none.

[Shellhead]

I think Marvel has better characters--heroes and villains--stories, talent, everything. I've always been a Marvel guy. Not only for the reasons mentioned, but also because Spider-Man is my favorite character in the history of anything. Since I'm a huge Spider-Man fan, I prefer his universe and the characters he's associated with.


I can no longer remember being such a big fan of a mainstream comic book character. Maybe you can help me out here. How did you feel when Spider-man's whole identity was called into question during the Clone Saga? Specificially, how did you cope with the issue where Parker backhanded a pregnant Mary Jane? And haven't there been times where an artist drew him in an unflattering manner? How about the retcons involving Gwen Stacy and Norman Osborn? Or the notorious deal with Mephisto?

Of course, I'm assuming that you're a fan of Peter Parker, the Spider-man of Earth-616. Perhaps you're more of an Ultimate Spider-fan, or liked one or more of the cartoon versions the best. Or of course, maybe the Tobey Maguire movies are more to your liking. And there's always the Spider-man of 2099.

My point is that I no longer get attached to mainstream heroes, because sooner or later, a writer is going to write them in a way that I dislike, either by choice or due to editorial mandate. And sooner or later, some bad artist is going to be allowed to make them look stupid. Or even if the original vision remains intact, popularity will sooner or later give rise to bad variations or derivative characters that drag the name down. So I don't follow characters anymore, I follow creators. The talented artists and writers that make comics worth buying.

[LtMarvel]

There is some truth to that. However, even Alan Moore can write boring stuff (see Wildstorm).

And there is the fun in seeing new adventures of your favorite characters.

For me, there is no point in buying into the super-hero mythos of both universes. One is fine for my super-hero fix. So even when one my favorite writers signs exclusive with the other company, I wait it out. And I discover other good stuff from other publishers instead.

What's the point of buying both The Avengers and Justice League of America, when you can buy Girl Genius instead of one of those?

[Nick Soapdish]

No, DC does require you to read Final Crisis if you're reading Batman currently. And to understand Final Crisis, you need a DC encyclopedia and a stash of psychotropic drugs.

Both companies have their issues. If I had to bet on Joe Q vs Dan Didio in the Thunderdome, and I'd demand a "Both Mangled and Killed" option.

I haven't read FC. I heard that Bats got killed in #6 (saw the panel even) and heard that he was revived in #7. I'm not having any trouble with Batman right now, but that may change in a few months.

Like you said, both companies have their issues. I've dropped several titles from both companies because I needed to read too much other stuff to figure out what's going on. Sometimes, I can just go with it and accept that I don't understand why it's happening, but it's not always worth the irritation.

I try to stick with titles that are below the radar and that the companies won't bother dragging into these messes.

I can no longer remember being such a big fan of a mainstream comic book character. Maybe you can help me out here. How did you feel when Spider-man's whole identity was called into question during the Clone Saga? Specificially, how did you cope with the issue where Parker backhanded a pregnant Mary Jane? And haven't there been times where an artist drew him in an unflattering manner? How about the retcons involving Gwen Stacy and Norman Osborn? Or the notorious deal with Mephisto?


That's sort of where I'm at.

Spider-Man is my favorite character. But he's been dragged through so much dodgy stuff that I can't really like the official version of the character any more. So I just stick with the one from my memories.