America & the world 3, pirates 0!

[Sean Walsh]

Captain Richard Phillips is rescued off the coast of Africa, and 3 of his 4 Somali pirate captors are dead. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/piracy)

Yay to swift firefights that kill pirates! :biggrin:

[Charles RB]

"Pirates 0"? They're racking up a pretty good score with all the successful hijacks they carry off.

Pretty good this firefight didn't kill any civvies like when the French tried it though, that's always a good bit of luck.

[Fenris]

That is good news! :smile:

õ
A happy note for an ongoing problem!

[Buried Alien]

It's sort of surreal that at the end of the first decade of the 21st Century, the international community is having problems with seagoing pirates...like people did back during the 18th and 19th Centuries. The idea seems so retro: "pirates," in our lifetimes, has more often referred to people who illegally clone tapes, CDs, DVDs, and MP3s.

But suddenly, traditional oceangoing pirates are not just the subject of a series of popular comedy/action films based on an old Disneyland ride, but an actual problem in the modern world.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Samurai]

We need to call in the natural enemy of pirates... ninjas!

[Calybos]

I really hope someone runs the headline:

"Obama Administration Defeats Dangerous Anti-American Assholes...
and some Somali Pirates, Too"



.

[Sean Walsh]

"Pirates 0"? They're racking up a pretty good score with all the successful hijacks they carry off.

In this particular exchange.

In the overall "pirates vs. everyone" war, everyone is probably woefully behind... :-/

[Samurai]

I really hope someone runs the headline:

"Obama Administration Defeats Dangerous Anti-American Assholes...
and some Somali Pirates, Too"



.

Why, did he fire some of his own administration officials over this?

[Puma]

"Pirates 0"? They're racking up a pretty good score with all the successful hijacks they carry off.

Pretty good this firefight didn't kill any civvies like when the French tried it though, that's always a good bit of luck.

It's more 3 pirates dead, over 200 sailors still kidnapped. Long way to go.

[Charles RB]

It's more 3 pirates dead, over 200 sailors still kidnapped. Long way to go.

Point.

And we can't get them all through raids, because that many raids will inevitably mean some of them get killed.

[Michael P]

It's sort of surreal that at the end of the first decade of the 21st Century, the international community is having problems with seagoing pirates...like people did back during the 18th and 19th Centuries. The idea seems so retro: "pirates," in our lifetimes, has more often referred to people who illegally clone tapes, CDs, DVDs, and MP3s.

But suddenly, traditional oceangoing pirates are not just the subject of a series of popular comedy/action films based on an old Disneyland ride, but an actual problem in the modern world.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
Well, piracy never really went away. Nor did the mystique surrounding it. Media penetration is another thing, but it's never a good idea to base one's perceptions of reality upon popular media.

[Aaron Kashtan]

I'm glad Richard Phillips is safe. But I would be even more glad if Somalia had a functioning government and economy, so that young Somalians had better career options than becoming pirates.

[VanEyck]

Interesting article about the Somali pirates.... it's a few months old, but still interesting.

You Are Being Lied To About Pirates
http://www.sfbayview.com/2009/you-are-being-lied-to-about-pirates/

[Charles RB]

The fishing and waste-dumping is interesting - why didn't that get stopped/regulated by other countries?

[Radioactive Zombie]

IIRC, China was seriously considering fighting piracy in the Africas in general.

[Deskad]

The fishing and waste-dumping is interesting - why didn't that get stopped/regulated by other countries?

Since when the hell do the powerful give a damn who they hurt?

[Shellhead]

Anybody here worried about the retaliation promised by the pirates?

[Adam C]

The fishing and waste-dumping is interesting - why didn't that get stopped/regulated by other countries?

Illegal trawling is easier to explain. There's been illegal trawling in Canadian waters by both Japanese and Spanish ships in the past (and in Spain's case there was a big kerfuffle over it) and the willingness of governments to turn-a-blind eye or support these actions is based on bloody minded economics. There's also the issue of Somalia having no formal government that can make its protests known and very little clout anyways. (And how much Europe has actually bothered to monitor this situation.)

[Cam63]

Nice shooting, USN.

[howyadoin]

Interesting article about the Somali pirates.... it's a few months old, but still interesting.

You Are Being Lied To About Pirates
http://www.sfbayview.com/2009/you-are-being-lied-to-about-pirates/What exactly are we being lied to about? I didn't see anything in that article that I hadn't previously read from other sources.

[Sean Walsh]

Anybody here worried about the retaliation promised by the pirates?

Not really. Obama declared peace to the seas has been restored.

.......unless that was as incorrect/misspoken as my "America 3, pirates 0" statement in the thread title.

[VanEyck]

The fishing and waste-dumping is interesting - why didn't that get stopped/regulated by other countries?

a. it already IS illegal according to other countries. But they have more important things to do than police Somali waters.

b. It is Somalia's responsibility to police their own territory. And without a functional government, they are easy pickings for the mafia and their ilk.

[Shellhead]

What exactly are we being lied to about? I didn't see anything in that article that I hadn't previously read from other sources.

Maybe somebody repealed that Two Wrongs Don't Make a Right thing.

[VanEyck]

What exactly are we being lied to about? I didn't see anything in that article that I hadn't previously read from other sources.

I didn't title the article!!!

But I think the point is that (a) we aren't being given any background about the situation, and (b) the term pirate is a loaded term and misrepresents what is actually going on (sometimes).

[howyadoin]

I didn't title the article!!!I didn't say you did.


But I think the point is that (a) we aren't being given any background about the situation, and (b) the term pirate is a loaded term and misrepresents what is actually going on (sometimes).Almost every article I've read in recent weeks has mentioned the collapse of the government and the poverty in Somalia. Even one of the crew members of the Maersk Alabama said that the pirates were "just hungry".

What's so loaded about term "pirate"? If the Somalis were the brave freedom fighters the article purports them to be, they wouldn't be high-jacking relief supplies or kidnapping anybody.

[RolandJP]

Captain Richard Phillips is rescued off the coast of Africa, and 3 of his 4 Somali pirate captors are dead. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/piracy)

Yay to swift firefights that kill pirates! :biggrin:

Without a mission accomplished banner, and grandstanding. This is the america I love.


My peeps overseas were stunned, that we would move with all of those resouces to rescue one man. Italy has 10 people still in custody by pirates.

Bravo America. Bravo Mister President. Bravo Armed service personel.

I like that stimulus package.

Yo Joeeeeeeeeeee

[Cam63]

Anybody here worried about the retaliation promised by the pirates?

If they want to get blown out of the water, that's their concern.

[Shellhead]

The U.S. Navy was actually originally created to fight the Barbary pirates of North Africa, with the Naval Act of 1794. The official hymn of the U.S. Marine Corps refers to the shores of Tripoli, which is a reference to the two Barbary Wars. And early Marine uniforms had a high-necked leather collar to protect against cutlass slashes, earning them the nickname "Leathernecks."

[nervmeister]

Oh, I this thread would be about the RIAA.

[Charles RB]

What's so loaded about term "pirate"?

If anything, it's a romanticised term. "Pirate" sounds cooler and gets more attention to our western ears than "hijackers".


If they want to get blown out of the water, that's their concern.

It should be noted again that the pirates are winning, with hijackings and ransoms working more often than not.

So yes, you would want to be concerned about a retaliation from them. Especially with all the hostages they still have.

[Calybos]

Of course they're going to retailate. And of course that will lead to more bloodshed. The question is, "Is it worth it compared to the cost of giving in to them, over and over again?"

In my eyes, it's worth it to fight these people. They're the instigators, and we have the right to defend our citizens from an ongoing assault. (Not that some sort of pre-emptive strike at an unrelated target should be authorized, mind you....)


.

[Charles RB]

In my eyes, it's worth it to fight these people.

Depends on how we go about fighting them, surely? It's entirely possible to fuck up and leave them either in the same position or stronger (see the Taleban).

[worstblogever]

The pirates took 2-3 more ships today?

Guys, guys... do you not know are snipers can, ya know, reload?

[Gordon Smith]

Not really. Obama declared peace to the seas has been restored.



That seems a bit premature, in my opinion.

[The Batman]

I can't be sure, but I thought I detected a hint of sarcasm in Sean's post.

[Charles RB]

The pirates took 2-3 more ships today?


Up to their fourth now, and nearly had a fifth. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7997610.stm)

Presumably they're not that bothered by the thought of further US and French military action - can't retaliate against them all, after all.

[Adam C]

What's so loaded about term "pirate"? If the Somalis were the brave freedom fighters the article purports them to be, they wouldn't be high-jacking relief supplies or kidnapping anybody.

But the article doesn't portray them as brave freedom fighters or at least not uniformly. Johann Hari explicitly acknowledges that many of the pirates operating in Somali waters are simply criminals, and says that Somalia being victimised by European criminality doesn't justifying hostage taking. The article simply notes that the situation in Somalia is more complex than simply criminals preying on innocent ships. Its also Somalis reacting to predations on their own country in the wake of their government's collapse. Or to quote the article directly:


Did we expect starving Somalians to stand passively on their beaches, paddling in our nuclear waste, and watch us snatch their fish to eat in restaurants in London and Paris and Rome? We didn’t act on those crimes - but when some of the fishermen responded by disrupting the transit corridor for 20 percent of the world’s oil supply, we begin to shriek about “evil.” If we really want to deal with piracy, we need to stop its root cause - our crimes - before we send in the gunboats to root out Somalia’s criminals.

[Shellhead]

But the article doesn't portray them as brave freedom fighters or at least not uniformly. Johann Hari explicitly acknowledges that many of the pirates operating in Somali waters are simply criminals, and says that Somalia being victimised by European criminality doesn't justifying hostage taking. The article simply notes that the situation in Somalia is more complex than simply criminals preying on innocent ships. Its also Somalis reacting to predations on their own country in the wake of their government's collapse. Or to quote the article directly:

The Somalis want to have a nasty civil war? Fine, it's their country. They want to make everybody else suffer, too? Hell no.

[RolandJP]

Johnny Depp aka Jack Sparrow was shot by a Seal sniper.


Then I woke up.


I guess the only pirates that are liked around the world are the "Good" kind. LOL

[Adam C]

The Somalis want to have a nasty civil war? Fine, it's their country. They want to make everybody else suffer, too? Hell no.

"They want to make everybody else suffer, too?" Did I miss something where it was revealed that Somalis are a homogenous group acting in concert?

[RolandJP]

"They want to make everybody else suffer, too?" Did I miss something where it was revealed that Somalis are a homogenous group acting in concert?

Ive been doing research. There is this urban myth called the black Hive mind. You see they are not capable of individual thought. Hence One..speaks for all. Im writing a Sci-FI novel on it.

[Shellhead]

"They want to make everybody else suffer, too?" Did I miss something where it was revealed that Somalis are a homogenous group acting in concert?

Fine, tell us about how some Somalis, really any Somalis at all who are doing anything to stop the piracy. I realize that their current state of governance is kind of a joke, but at some point, people need to take responsibility for their leadership. People get the government they deserve. Are you going to tell us that the pirates are the only people in Somalia with weapons?

[Mac Danny]

Yesterday on the way home there was a car dealership with their light up sign changed to America 3 Pirates 0.

Is this really what we are about? Is it really all just bread and Circus? That guy probably hasn't seen a buyer in months but shoot a couple of Pirates and it's a sunny day again.

I am happy the captain is safe, I am happy how it was handled, but celebrating it feels wrong.

[Ray R.]

Yesterday on the way home there was a car dealership with their light up sign changed to America 3 Pirates 0.

Is this really what we are about? Is it really all just bread and Circus? That guy probably hasn't seen a buyer in months but shoot a couple of Pirates and it's a sunny day again.

I am happy the captain is safe, I am happy how it was handled, but celebrating it feels wrong.

Snipers: America's Heroes for a New Generation

"So, what do you feel when you shoot a guy in the head from 500 yards?"

"Recoil."

[Adam C]

Fine, tell us about how some Somalis, really any Somalis at all who are doing anything to stop the piracy. I realize that their current state of governance is kind of a joke, but at some point, people need to take responsibility for their leadership. People get the government they deserve. Are you going to tell us that the pirates are the only people in Somalia with weapons?

Somalia has been at civil war for seventeen years and the original armed factions that started it themselves have splintered. Do you seriously think that restoring order in Somalia, let alone its coastal waters is as easy as "taking responsibility for their leadership?" Particularly when a good portion of the population is struggling to survive? Even military intervention by Ethiopia hasn't fully restored central governance, and the Transitional Government is still dealing with the mass of armed groups running around the country. Just take a look at a recent political map. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Political_situation_in_Somalia_following_the_Ethio pian_withdrawal.png) The blue territory is that controlled by the official government. You're literally demanding Somalia unify and defeat the pirates under the most unrealistic of terms

In any case one of the competing governing bodies in Somalia, the Union of Islamic Courts (UIC) had been fighting against the pirates in territory it controls (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6128558.stm). However, after Ethiopia's intervention (supported by the international community) the UIC is split between those allied with the official federal government and hardliners who continue to make war with it. To what extent the Transitional Federal Government is fighting pirates I don't know, but its ability to do so would be severely limited in any case.

[howyadoin]

But the article doesn't portray them as brave freedom fighters or at least not uniformly. Johann Hari explicitly acknowledges that many of the pirates operating in Somali waters are simply criminals, and says that Somalia being victimised by European criminality doesn't justifying hostage taking. The article simply notes that the situation in Somalia is more complex than simply criminals preying on innocent ships. Its also Somalis reacting to predations on their own country in the wake of their government's collapse.I know; I read it. Mainly I wanted some explanation of how "pirate" is supposedly such a loaded term.

[Adam C]

To add to my earlier point, here's an article that expands on piracy's economic role in Somalia

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/africa/features/article_1444031.php/Somali_pirates_live_high_life_when_not_on_high_sea s__Feature__


As a consequence of what is Somalia's only growth industry, several pirate havens have sprung up in Puntland.

Settlements such as Eyl, Garowe and Harardhere are becoming boomtowns - at least compared to the rest of Somalia, where a bloody insurgency, drought and rising food and fuel prices have left millions dependent on food aid.

It is little wonder that the residents of these towns have a rosy view of the pirates.

'Pirates are the best customers I have because they don't bother bargaining like the others - they buy expensive shirts, trousers and aftershave,' says Mohamed Ali Yarow, who owns a menswear store in Garowe. 'Girls like to date pirates because they give them good money.'

Puntland officials, while trying to play down the popularity of the pirates, also admit that flashing the cash helps the gangs achieve acceptance.

'They are not so popular in the big towns, but they have real economic and social influence in some villages,' says Bile Mohamoud Qabowsade, senior adviser to Puntland President Adde Muse.

Going on about Somalia putting a stop to these pirates is pretty damn hard when the average Somali can't do much more than survive, and in some cases piracy has become one of the few means of direct or indirect survival for people in the country. There's simply no point in asking why Somalis aren't putting a stop to piracy when they can barely maintain order or survive on the mainland. The better question to ask is, if this is such a problem with us what can wealthy nations with unified governments and actual military resources affected by this do to put a stop to piracy in Somali waters? Johann Hari's article was directed at this point by noting how Europe should put a stop to that activities of its own criminals in Somali waters before it can realistically address the piracy situation. Because illegal trawling and waste dumping helped start this problem in the first place.

[Shellhead]

I agree that shooting pirates is a disturbing reason for celebration, but some insecure Americans are probably cheered by the idea that we can still solve some (small) problems with force.

And I agree that Somalia is a mess, but I thought it became pretty obvious in Iraq that even the most powerful country can't just force a foreign nation to behave itself. Somalia will remain a mess until it either fractures into two or more smaller nations that can govern themselves, or until a coalition of Somali factions cooperate to bring about order. I'm sure that there is plenty of blame to go around, but to blame their civil war on toxic waste dumping or illegal trawling (in the same coastal waters?!?) seems absurd. Either way, if the Somalis can't stop the piracy, I think that it's perfectly appropriate for other nations to protect the ships flying under their flags.

Read up about the Barbary pirates. It was pathetic the way European nations and even the United States paid protection money to those pirates, who continued to attack trade vessels anyway, as well attack towns along the Mediterranean coast. That isn't going to happen today, as modern governments understand that there is no point to negotiating with criminals.

[Mac Danny]

Snipers: America's Heroes for a New Generation

"So, what do you feel when you shoot a guy in the head from 500 yards?"

"Recoil."

"how can you shoot Women or Children?"

"Easy! Ya just don't lead 'em so much! "

[Mac Danny]

I know; I read it. Mainly I wanted some explanation of how "pirate" is supposedly such a loaded term.

It's only loaded if preceded by "Butt"

[Mac Danny]

This looks like a Job for Precious Roy's Pirate Cripplers! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owouynBXC4g)

[Ray R.]

"how can you shoot Women or Children?"

"Easy! Ya just don't lead 'em so much! "

"I grew up playing Doom and Medal of Honor. Now I shoot pirates the same way. What a country!"

[Charles RB]

Fine, tell us about how some Somalis, really any Somalis at all who are doing anything to stop the piracy.

And the other countries were doing bog all about their citizens dumping waste and overfishing in Somalian waters, so under this argument Somalian pirates and self-styled coast guards are totally justified in attacking boats.


Are you going to tell us that the pirates are the only people in Somalia with weapons?

Nope, there's lots of other people with guns. That's the problem.

You might as well blame the mafia on shop-owners paying up protection money and not taking responsibility for their neighbourhood.


modern governments understand that there is no point to negotiating with criminals.

The American government negotiated with anti-government Sunni militias in Iraq. Let's not get starry-eyed about how our nations never negotiate.

[Mac Danny]

And the other countries were doing bog all about their citizens dumping waste and overfishing in Somalian waters, so under this argument Somalian pirates and self-styled coast guards are totally justified in attacking boats.



Nope, there's lots of other people with guns. That's the problem.

You might as well blame the mafia on shop-owners paying up protection money and not taking responsibility for their neighbourhood.


Hey Charles, Come on now, Ray and I are trying to make jokes here. Then you have to go and make a point.

Thread Pirate!

:biggrin: The evil smiley means I am joking.

[Ray R.]

Hey Charles, Come on now, Ray and I are trying to make jokes here. Then you have to go and make a point.

Thread Pirate!

:biggrin: The evil smiley means I am joking.

Arrrr, down to Davey's Locker with Charles.

[Cam63]

Snipers: America's Heroes for a New Generation

"So, what do you feel when you shoot a guy in the head from 500 yards?"

"Recoil."

http://www.navygear.com/store/graphics/00000001/sniper_t.jpg

[Adam C]

I'm sure that there is plenty of blame to go around, but to blame their civil war on toxic waste dumping or illegal trawling (in the same coastal waters?!?) seems absurd.

No one is blaming the civil war on either of those things. They have been identified as causes of piracy on Somali coastal waters. Also the reprint of Hari's article that Van Eyck posted had this addendum at the end regarding the seemingly contradictory activities of waste dumping and illegal fishing:


Postscript: Some commentators seem bemused by the fact that both toxic dumping and the theft of fish are happening in the same place - wouldn’t this make the fish contaminated? In fact, Somalia’s coastline is vast, stretching 3,300km (over 2,000 miles). Imagine how easy it would be - without any coast guard or army - to steal fish from Florida and dump nuclear waste on California, and you get the idea. These events are happening in different places but with the same horrible effect: death for the locals and stirred-up piracy. There’s no contradiction.


I know; I read it. Mainly I wanted some explanation of how "pirate" is supposedly such a loaded term.

Fair enough. I mistakenly thought you had misconstrued the author's portrayal of the situation in the article.

I think it's right there in the article, even though Hari never specifically argues that "pirate" is a loaded term. His main point is that the popular understanding of piracy suffers from a substantial gap in understanding why the phenomenon exists in Somalia. And to underline his point he shows how this applies to the Golden Age of Piracy as well.

[Mac Danny]

http://www.navygear.com/store/graphics/00000001/sniper_t.jpg

Kill em slow, make em watch the movie.

http://www.matchflick.com/flickimages/11396.jpg

[Ray R.]

Kill em slow, make em watch the movie.

http://www.matchflick.com/flickimages/11396.jpg

I'd say, go for the whole collectors' edition, 3 DVD box set. That'll learn 'em.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l67/rrivard/Sniper3.jpg

[Mac Danny]

I'd say, go for the whole collectors' edition, 3 DVD box set. That'll learn 'em.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l67/rrivard/Sniper3.jpg

Do they ALL have billy Zane? That would be the only reason to buy it. For Film and televisions Billy Zane

[howyadoin]

Fair enough. I mistakenly thought you had misconstrued the author's portrayal of the situation in the article.Yeah, I coulda been more clear there. It just sounded to me like "pirate" has a negative weight to it, the way "gypsy" does. (Needless to say, I disagree.)


I think it's right there in the article, even though Hari never specifically argues that "pirate" is a loaded term. His main point is that the popular understanding of piracy suffers from a substantial gap in understanding why the phenomenon exists in Somalia. And to underline his point he shows how this applies to the Golden Age of Piracy as well.True. I think it comes across as a bit naive or simplistic, though - you'd think from the article that the pirates during the Golden Age were romantic Robin Hood figures (which, frankly, reeks of bullshit to me) or some kind of proto-socialists. Did the pirates really only attack mean people and racists, or did they just go after any viable target?

[Charles RB]

you'd think from the article that the pirates during the Golden Age were romantic Robin Hood figures (which, frankly, reeks of bullshit to me)

I don't think it is bullshit that they were seen as romantic Robin Hood figures by ordinary people. The pirates weren't attacking them, after all.

[howyadoin]

I don't think it is bullshit that they were seen as romantic Robin Hood figures by ordinary people. The pirates weren't attacking them, after all.Well, sure. People want to believe in the myths of Robin Hood and Jesse James. It takes a pretty thick pair of rose-coloured glasses to actually pull it off, though.

[Adam C]

True. I think it comes across as a bit naive or simplistic, though - you'd think from the article that the pirates during the Golden Age were romantic Robin Hood figures (which, frankly, reeks of bullshit to me) or some kind of proto-socialists. Did the pirates really only attack mean people and racists, or did they just go after any viable target?

I don't really get that impression from the article myself. He says they were unproductive thieves and doesn't say that they distinguished between targets. Merely that their internal forms of organisation were more egalitarian since they were largely made up men who had escaped the hell of European navies of the time. And for this they were romanticised by many order people of the time. Plus he's willing to acknowledge the criminality of current Somali pirates, even if they were original motivated by a just cause.

(Granted my views might be coloured by being introduced to Hari's journalism through his lambasting of the myth of Che Guevara (http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-should-che-be-an-icon-no-394336.html).)

[Shellhead]

No one is blaming the civil war on either of those things. They have been identified as causes of piracy on Somali coastal waters. Also the reprint of Hari's article that Van Eyck posted had this addendum at the end regarding the seemingly contradictory activities of waste dumping and illegal fishing:


Postscript: Some commentators seem bemused by the fact that both toxic dumping and the theft of fish are happening in the same place - wouldn’t this make the fish contaminated? In fact, Somalia’s coastline is vast, stretching 3,300km (over 2,000 miles). Imagine how easy it would be - without any coast guard or army - to steal fish from Florida and dump nuclear waste on California, and you get the idea. These events are happening in different places but with the same horrible effect: death for the locals and stirred-up piracy. There’s no contradiction.



Oh. Good point about the scale of Somalia's coastline. I still have no interest in amnesty, cooperation, negotiation or payment of protection money to pirates, and apparently President Obama feels the same way. Their plight is possibly tragic, but we still don't need to role over and submit to the piracy.

[Adam C]

Oh. Good point about the scale of Somalia's coastline. I still have no interest in amnesty, cooperation, negotiation or payment of protection money to pirates, and apparently President Obama feels the same way. Their plight is possibly tragic, but we still don't need to role over and submit to the piracy.

Which no one's really arguing for. Just that we address the issues that gave rise to this piracy in the first place. (Or in Hari's case, that Europe should specifically,)

[howyadoin]

Granted my views might be coloured by being introduced to Hari's journalism through his lambasting of the myth of Che Guevara (http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-should-che-be-an-icon-no-394336.html).Thanks. That definitely puts things into perspective.

[Fenris]

Somalia has been at civil war for seventeen years and the original armed factions that started it themselves have splintered. Do you seriously think that restoring order in Somalia, let alone its coastal waters is as easy as "taking responsibility for their leadership?" Particularly when a good portion of the population is struggling to survive? Even military intervention by Ethiopia hasn't fully restored central governance, and the Transitional Government is still dealing with the mass of armed groups running around the country. Just take a look at a recent political map. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Political_situation_in_Somalia_following_the_Ethio pian_withdrawal.png) The blue territory is that controlled by the official government. You're literally demanding Somalia unify and defeat the pirates under the most unrealistic of terms

In any case one of the competing governing bodies in Somalia, the Union of Islamic Courts (UIC) had been fighting against the pirates in territory it controls (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6128558.stm). However, after Ethiopia's intervention (supported by the international community) the UIC is split between those allied with the official federal government and hardliners who continue to make war with it. To what extent the Transitional Federal Government is fighting pirates I don't know, but its ability to do so would be severely limited in any case.

It's unclear to me what we can do about Somalia's chaotic internal situation. Does anyone support a long-term major military occupation of the country?

If we establish a long-term naval presence along the coastline, then we can presumably inhibit both Somali piracy and illegal European dumping and fishing. But the Navy's not as big as it used to be; and there are a whole lot of potential trouble spots in the world's oceans.

õ
On the other hand, Somalia is no longer potential trouble!

[Adam C]

It's unclear to me what we can do about Somalia's chaotic internal situation. Does anyone support a long-term major military occupation of the country?

Unlike Iraq, there would actually be a good case for a full-scale invasion of occupation of Somalia due to the sheer instability and how that's spilling outside of Somali borders. How feasible it might be given the sheer number of armed groups and sheer length of time the civil war has been going on is another question. Ethiopia already invaded to wipe out the UIC and prop up the Transitional Federal Government but given events since then it indicates a longer military presence was needed.


If we establish a long-term naval presence along the coastline, then we can presumably inhibit both Somali piracy and illegal European dumping and fishing. But the Navy's not as big as it used to be; and there are a whole lot of potential trouble spots in the world's oceans.

Presumably any sort of long-term naval presence on the coastline would be (and would have to be) multi-national. So the actual size of the U.S. navy need not as important factor in establishing such a blockade.

[Fenris]

Unlike Iraq, there would actually be a good case for a full-scale invasion of occupation of Somalia due to the sheer instability and how that's spilling outside of Somali borders. How feasible it might be given the sheer number of armed groups and sheer length of time the civil war has been going on is another question. Ethiopia already invaded to wipe out the UIC and prop up the Transitional Federal Government but given events since then it indicates a longer military presence was needed.

Politically speaking, I cannot imagine this happening. Which isn't a good or complete answer, I know, but it's the first thing that occurs to me.



Presumably any sort of long-term naval presence on the coastline would be (and would have to be) multi-national. So the actual size of the U.S. navy need not as important factor in establishing such a blockade.

The US Navy (in terms of tonnage) is larger than that of the next 13 nations combined. I appreciate the fact that other nations will help, but it's primarily going to be us.

And we are a lot smaller than we used to be: in the 1990s, we had around 500 ships. Now we have 283, with serious manpower shortages; and by 2012, it's expected to shrink to about 200 ships.

Under those circumstances, I'm afraid that piracy- in Somalia, or elsewhere- is going to be a common international problem from now on.

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Pessimistic, I know!

[Calybos]

Fix Somalia, eh?

How much oil do they have?



.

[Gordon Smith]

That isn't going to happen today, as modern governments understand that there is no point to negotiating with criminals.

Governments negotiate with criminals all the time and will continue to do so.

[Loren]

Unlike Iraq, there would actually be a good case for a full-scale invasion of occupation of Somalia due to the sheer instability and how that's spilling outside of Somali borders. How feasible it might be given the sheer number of armed groups and sheer length of time the civil war has been going on is another question. Ethiopia already invaded to wipe out the UIC and prop up the Transitional Federal Government but given events since then it indicates a longer military presence was needed.

But even if an invasion of Somalia was a good cause, who would actually want to commit to it knowing that it would be a long-term occupation and commitment? With Iraq, our leaders at least believed that they were only getting into a relatively short conflict like the first Gulf War; they were obviously mistaken, but I imagine even their decisions would have panned out differently if they'd accepted upfront the level of commitment they were undertaking.

It's one thing for a military action to turn into a quagmire. It's another to admit upfront that it's going to be a quagmire, and to go in anyway.

[Adam C]

But even if an invasion of Somalia was a good cause, who would actually want to commit to it knowing that it would be a long-term occupation and commitment? With Iraq, our leaders at least believed that they were only getting into a relatively short conflict like the first Gulf War...

Unfortunately you are absolutely correct.

[Grazzt]

That isn't going to happen today, as modern governments understand that there is no point to negotiating with criminals.

Except for the Mafia, who are apparently the ones contracted to dump the toxic waste. I bet they got a good deal, too.

Edit: But I forgot, that's just factories and hospitals. And while I'm sure some of those are state-run, blaming that on the government isn't accurate. My apologies.

[Charles RB]

It's one thing for a military action to turn into a quagmire. It's another to admit upfront that it's going to be a quagmire, and to go in anyway.

As I recall, the reason the UK government called the Malayan Emergency "the Malayan Emergency" and not a war was to avoid domestic fuss over a long-term war (it lasted twelve years).

It was a success though, so long-term operations aren't necessarily doomed... (but one in Somalia probably would be)