Who would Bruce WANT to take over for him?

[The Lucky One]

Obviously the big question recently is who's going to end up with the cowl, but it stands to reason that whoever it is may or may not be who Bruce himself would have chosen. Over the years, particularly since KnightsEnd, various writers have attempted to address this issue in conversations between Bruce and other characters, sometimes in passing and sometimes more seriously, but naturally they don't all agree. I thought this thread would be a good place for us to discuss who Bruce would have picked as his successor if given the choice.

Dick Grayson: In Knightfall, obviously, Bruce passed over Dick to replace him under the reasoning that Dick had become his own man and was out of Bruce's shadow, and wouldn't want to do it anyway. He later admitted this was a mistake, and Dick did serve as Batman in Prodigal, but that was always intended to be temporary. Would Bruce want him to be his permanent replacement? Obviously he's qualified, but Bruce might still harbor feelings of not wanting Dick to feel obligated to do it. Also, as the "son" he's had the longest and arguably is closest to, Bruce may feel that being Batman is a tough, lonely fate that he wouldn't wish on Dick, the way parents sometimes hope for better careers for their children.

Tim Drake: I can't remember issue numbers, but I seem to recall at least a couple of times where Bruce off-handedly mentioned that he hoped Tim would succeed him as Batman. Once I think was in the Young Justice "Sins of Youth" one-shot where Bruce temporarily was a teenager and Tim a grown man. I seem to recall similar dialogue in at least one issue of Robin, too. Now, again, obviously different writers have different notions about the ideal replacement, but it could be argued that Bruce sees Tim as being more serious and better suited for the mindset that goes into being Batman than Dick. Also, since Bruce wasn't Tim's adopted father until recently, Bruce might have subconsciously wanted to spare his "son" Dick of the burden by giving it to someone he liked and respected but didn't have the same parental feelings towards... namely, Tim.

Jason Todd: Uh... well, I honestly can't imagine what would make Bruce want Jason to be Batman over the other two. But it's true that Jason was considered dead for most of the post-Knightfall period, and who knows, Bruce might have re-evaluated recently. We never found out what was in the message that Bruce left for Jason in the final issue of Robin, but it certainly seemed to surprise him. Could it actually have been instructions to take over for him as Batman? I doubt it, but stranger things have happened.

Other: Those three are the big contenders, but there could always be other candidates if someone wants to make a case for them.

Anyway, just thought it might spark some interesting discussion. Have at it!

-D

[synthetikdemon]

I also seem to remember Bruce once saying to Alfred , that one day they would all be working for Tim...

[Choppa]

If Jean-Paul could kick the system's control over him he would make a great Batman.

-He can fight (beat Bruce, Dick)
-Has computer skills
-Can use the system to access new abilities
-He can be scary
-He doesn't have any attachments. Tim and Dick both have personal lives that they have put ahead of their roles as Robin and Nightwing in the past. JPV doesn't have that problem and could take that risk of absorbing himself completely in being Batman
-He's seeking redemption, which can be a powerful source of motivation and would be the equivilant of Bruce's personal tragedy that drives him.

[carabas]

Tim Drake: I can't remember issue numbers, but I seem to recall at least a couple of times where Bruce off-handedly mentioned that he hoped Tim would succeed him as Batman. Once I think was in the Young Justice "Sins of Youth" DI recall an issue of Batman or Detective, from just before No Man's Land (it had the Rat Catcher as villain) where he said the same thing.

[Joker2503]

I think Bruce would view Tim as a better replacement. He is a much better detective than Dick, and Batman is as much about CSI work as fighting.

If Bruce had a will, Dick would get Wayne Manor; Tim would get the Cave.

[Batman Examiner]

Bruce probably has his reasons for wanting Tim and just as many reasons for wanting Dick.

[Choppa]

If Jean-Paul could kick the system's control over him he would make a great Batman.

-He can fight (beat Bruce, Dick)
-Has computer skills
-Can use the system to access new abilities
-He can be scary
-He doesn't have any attachments. Tim and Dick both have personal lives that they have put ahead of their roles as Robin and Nightwing in the past. JPV doesn't have that problem and could take that risk of absorbing himself completely in being Batman
-He's seeking redemption, which can be a powerful source of motivation and would be the equivilant of Bruce's personal tragedy that drives him.

Oh and I forgot to mention, he did want JPV to fill in for him. If you remember, he didn't think Dick would want to do it.

[Sijo]

Who would he want to be his successor? Dick. He's like a son to him, even if he rarely mentions it. Deep down, he's proud of him and would want him to carry on his work.

Who does he think would be a better successor? Now that's a more complex question. The comments above made me realize that, since Bruce *does* care for his wards (even Jason) he would want them to *actually* have lives, something he never gave himself time for because he felt that only total commitment would do for his mission. Valley would in fact be the best choice... if Bruce could trust that his brainwashing would not come back one day.

Bruce would either need to find another equally committed, competent person to handle the job, or to realize he *doesn't* need to be totally focused to do it first. (Funny how that works for everybody else -including Superman- but not for him. Maybe Batman is DC's Tony Stark, the guy who secretly believes only he knows better. Which he might, but doesn't make him right all the time...)

[Buried Alien]

I think the reason that Bruce left each of his "sons," even Jason, a separate message is that he probably believed that none of them, individually, could replace him as Batman. Each one has various strengths and weaknesses, but none of them is the total package that is Batman. Together, however, their individual strengths and weaknesses might add up to something akin to Bruce's Batman. I think Bruce intended for each of his heirs to take on one aspect of Batman, which is why there is now a "Battle For the Cowl."

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[celticguy]

I don't know he would want anyone to take over the mantle of Batman and carry the burden he created with that name.

I think he would want Dick, Tim, Alfred, Cassandra, and Barbara to protect Gotham in their own way.

[HopeLantern]

Maybe I misread... but I thought Bruce already had a designated entity to take over for him in his absence... namely the new Outsiders? As a group, that's who he wanted to take over. I don't think he'd want that burden placed on Tim or Dick, and most certainly never Jason Todd.

[Alejandro]

I don't know he would want anyone to take over the mantle of Batman and carry the burden he created with that name.

I think he would want Dick, Tim, Alfred, Cassandra, and Barbara to protect Gotham in their own way.

I agree completly.

[carabas]

I think the reason that Bruce left each of his "sons," even Jason, a separate message is that he probably believed that none of them, individually, could replace him as Batman. Each one has various strengths and weaknesses, but none of them is the total package that is Batman. Together, however, their individual strengths and weaknesses might add up to something akin to Bruce's Batman. I think Bruce intended for each of his heirs to take on one aspect of Batman, which is why there is now a "Battle For the Cowl."It must have slipped his mind that Todd is an unrepenting murderer. It bogles the mind he got any message at all.

[Buried Alien]

It must have slipped his mind that Todd is an unrepenting murderer. It bogles the mind he got any message at all.

For a guy who supposedly takes an absolutist stand against killing, Batman has a strange soft spot for dubious allies who have killed.

Azrael murdered Abattoir; Batman continued to provide Jean Paul Valley with various kinds of support after taking bat the Mantle of the Bat from him.

Bane is a murderer many times over; when Bane sought to discover his true origins (including whether or not he shared blood relations with Bruce Wayne), Batman welcomed Bane into his home and provided support.

Jason Todd has killed quite a few people since returning from the dead; Batman seemingly continued to sanction him.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Choppa]

He believe in rehabilitation. That's why he hasn't killed any of his rogues.

[celticguy]

For a guy who supposedly takes an absolutist stand against killing, Batman has a strange soft spot for dubious allies who have killed.

Azrael murdered Abattoir; Batman continued to provide Jean Paul Valley with various kinds of support after taking bat the Mantle of the Bat from him.

Bane is a murderer many times over; when Bane sought to discover his true origins (including whether or not he shared blood relations with Bruce Wayne), Batman welcomed Bane into his home and provided support.

Jason Todd has killed quite a few people since returning from the dead; Batman seemingly continued to sanction him.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

don't forget catwoman killing the black mask. Ok that did not take but still.

Vigilante was allowed to operate. both of them

Katana has killed many times

he does not seem to bother arresting shiva

[The Lucky One]

For a guy who supposedly takes an absolutist stand against killing, Batman has a strange soft spot for dubious allies who have killed.

Only if they're not the Huntress.

-D

[Will44]

Richard Grayson. But at the same time, Bruce also knows that Richard has worked really hard to be his own man. Which is why Bruce asked Jean Paul to take over the first time this happened.

[discodicky]

I don't think Bruce would want anyone to takeover from him. Except Bat-Mite

[The Cool Thatguy]

It must have slipped his mind that Todd is an unrepenting murderer. It bogles the mind he got any message at all.

So? David Cain is twice as ruthless and has a much higher body but Cass still loved him dearly (pre-Beechen).

Jason is functionally Bruce's son. Bruce would probably beat Jason to a pulp, but he would still care for him. For all we know, his last message was a plea for Jason to renounce violence.

[Lorendiac]

My guess would be that Batman would want Dick to have "first dibs" on becoming the replacement Batman. Dick's had the most years of training under Batman's wing, and the most years of experience (both as a sidekick and as a hero working alone or with other groups), so he's probably "best qualified." Also, the last time I checked, Dick was still larger and presumably stronger than Tim Drake, who is still a teenager. Batman would presumably prefer the new Batman to be someone large enough to be more intimidating than Tim looked the last time I saw him. (Granted, I haven't much attention to him lately, so maybe he had another growth spurt when I wasn't looking.)

If Dick were unable or unwilling to make the commitment to be "The New Batman in Gotham City" as a full-time thing, then I'd expect Batman to figure Tim would be a decent "second choice." Although he might be more enthusiastic about that if this were all happening a few years from now, when Tim was in his early 20s and presumably a bit taller and huskier than he currently is?

I don't see Jason as being in the running at all, and I very much doubt Batman would feel right about letting Jean Paul have another crack at it.

[numberONE]

I think the reason that Bruce left each of his "sons," even Jason, a separate message is that he probably believed that none of them, individually, could replace him as Batman. Each one has various strengths and weaknesses, but none of them is the total package that is Batman. Together, however, their individual strengths and weaknesses might add up to something akin to Bruce's Batman. I think Bruce intended for each of his heirs to take on one aspect of Batman, which is why there is now a "Battle For the Cowl."

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I like that idea.

[celticguy]

well are you saying who Bruce would want or who would he accept.

I think he would be honored if Dick took up the Mantle (or Tim for that matter) but he would not want it for them.

[Corrina]

Jason, a murderer who the Bat-Clan let out of jail, is one of the things keeping me away from the Bat-universe right now.

Not because of his action but because the rest of the clan is responsible for tolerating a MURDERER. It goes against the core of what they believe or supposedly believe. Heroes really shouldn't let murderers run around free or help break them out of jail, even if they're related.

Anyway, it's a storyline that makes no sense to me in the way the Bat clan is behaving, so I stay away.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Jason, a murderer who the Bat-Clan let out of jail, is one of the things keeping me away from the Bat-universe right now.

Not because of his action but because the rest of the clan is responsible for tolerating a MURDERER. It goes against the core of what they believe or supposedly believe. Heroes really shouldn't let murderers run around free or help break them out of jail, even if they're related.

Anyway, it's a storyline that makes no sense to me in the way the Bat clan is behaving, so I stay away.

In all fairness, it was presented as a 'last chance' sorta deal, plus they knew that Jason could have broken himself out of jail, but not before killing a bunch of people.

[Corrina]

But hadn't he already left a dead body for Bats at the end of Countdown?

Plus, the bit with being a murderer while he was being Black Mask? And didn't Jason kill people over in Nightwing?

How many chances does one guy get?

*Well, as many as editorial wants, I assume.

[Buried Alien]

But hadn't he already left a dead body for Bats at the end of Countdown?

Plus, the bit with being a murderer while he was being Black Mask? And didn't Jason kill people over in Nightwing?

How many chances does one guy get?


The same could be said for how Batman treats the Joker, Two-Face, etc.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[The Lucky One]

The same could be said for how Batman treats the Joker, Two-Face, etc.

Just playing devil's advocate, they're insane, and Bruce makes an effort to stop them every time. I feel like if Harvey started killing only bad guys and Bruce said, "Weeeell, I guess I can leave him alone for a while. Just for old times' sake," that would be more like the Jason situation. :wink:

-D

[Captain Jim]

If Jean-Paul could kick the system's control over him he would make a great Batman.

-He can fight (beat Bruce, Dick)
-Has computer skills
-Can use the system to access new abilities
-He can be scary
-He doesn't have any attachments. Tim and Dick both have personal lives that they have put ahead of their roles as Robin and Nightwing in the past. JPV doesn't have that problem and could take that risk of absorbing himself completely in being Batman
-He's seeking redemption, which can be a powerful source of motivation and would be the equivilant of Bruce's personal tragedy that drives him.

You neglect to mention the part about him being dead. Not that this a problem in comics anymore, alas.

[Buried Alien]

You neglect to mention the part about him being dead. Not that this a problem in comics anymore, alas.

Jean Paul Valley's death was never confirmed. Although he appeared doomed at the end of his series, it was ambiguous enough that if does turn up alive, it's not a huge shock.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Sean Whitmore]

Only if they're not the Huntress.

Heh.

And as far as I can remember, the first time she ever killed someone (during the earthquake storyline?) was only after he'd already been on her case for years.


SEAN

[titanfan]

Ideally, he wouldn't want anyone to take over for him. He would regard it as a personal failure if he were to die before cleaning up Gotham.

[Sean Whitmore]

Ideally, he wouldn't want anyone to take over for him. He would regard it as a personal failure if he were to die before cleaning up Gotham.

I don't think he's that naive, honestly. He's stated several times that he knows he can't complete his mission, even in a lifetime.


SEAN

[Avenger08]

I think Dick should be the one to take up the bat-mantle. His parents, like Batman's were killed and he used that to make himself a better man. He parallels batman, and his detective skills, although not entirely on par with Tim, are still pretty amazing. Also, his personality was the thing that made him even BETTER than batman on some occasions because of his leadership. However, in BFTC 1 he is shown as becoming even more like batman, losing that more relatable personality and becoming more like batman himself. He was the first, and he should be the one to take up the mantle.

[Lorendiac]

Ideally, he wouldn't want anyone to take over for him. He would regard it as a personal failure if he were to die before cleaning up Gotham.

I don't think he's that naive, honestly. He's stated several times that he knows he can't complete his mission, even in a lifetime.

And I never got the impression that he thinks he can't possibly be killed before his mission is over. (Aside from the whole problem of: "Even if I capture and imprison every single criminal in Gotham, that's no guarantee that more criminals won't come along later!")

[sherlocke]

Bruce Wayne will never want anyone else to take over.