Publishing with Image?

[vonni vice vivace]

Bongiorno everyone!

I was wondering if anyone has ever tried to get published to Image comics or at least thought about it.

Image just seems so ideal, since all characters are creator-owned you don't have to worry about getting moved off of your comic and put onto someone else's while hopelessly watching them resurrect your dead-for-good heroes or villains. I know that on Image's site they've actually got the directions for how to pilot a comic, I was just wondering if any of you guys had tried, or if someone has thought about, too.

Right now my original series and characters are just kind of sketches and scripts awaiting for me to hone my skills when I'm out of school to be adopted by a nice publisher, haha, but I get really excited at the pure mention of someone who's been published to Image and their story.

Thanks for reading!

[yetibreath]

Sorry to interrupt your thread a bit, I just read this week in one of the Hellboy trades, Mignola originally went to Image with Hellboy but they turned him down as they weren't looking for that sort of thing. Now that's a mistake!

[GRANT!]

Sorry to interrupt your thread a bit, I just read this week in one of the Hellboy trades, Mignola originally went to Image with Hellboy but they turned him down as they weren't looking for that sort of thing. Now that's a mistake!

Not sure what the full story is on that. But Larsen has said many times he wanted Mignola to bring Hellboy to Image.

[suttercain]

I have tried...

I sent in my proposal (see sig) exactly 24 days ago and so far they have not looked at it. I know they have not looked at it because the 4 digit extension at the end of the link is for Image and I keep track of which publisher has looked at the site.

Technically I still have 6 more days before I'm "rejected" officially from Image.

IF YOU DO NOT RECEIVE A REPLY WITHIN A MONTH, YOU SHOULD CONSIDER YOUR PROPOSAL REJECTED.

That's what is posted on Image's submissions page. Now my question would be... if they never even look at the proposal, why should one go through the trouble of making it and sending it to them? I catered their link to meet ALL of the requirements they ask for on their web page. I spent time doing this and so far, they have not taken 1 minute to click the link at look at the proposal.

Again, I have 6 days left, so they may still click the link and look at it. I'll keep you posted.

-SC

[DKeener]

http://www.imagecomics.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?t=5903

This is the best information you can get about Image and it's policies.

[the goddamn batman]

If you're 100% positive they haven't even looked at it, you could try re sending it. You could also send in a physical submission.

[suttercain]

If you're 100% positive they haven't even looked at it, you could try re sending it. You could also send in a physical submission.

I'll wait until after the month is up. I'm 100% sure they didn't look at it but will try re-sending it in a couple of weeks.

Developing...

[vonni vice vivace]

Sorry to interrupt your thread a bit, I just read this week in one of the Hellboy trades, Mignola originally went to Image with Hellboy but they turned him down as they weren't looking for that sort of thing. Now that's a mistake!

That's actually really interesting, haha! Man, I hope that I'll have Mignola's luck when it comes to getting published.

I'll wait until after the month is up. I'm 100% sure they didn't look at it but will try re-sending it in a couple of weeks.

Developing...

Wow! I just read the overview of your story, it's so interesting! It's like a mixture of Logan's Run and something I can't put my finger on, but it's simply wonderful! I'd publish this if I could, it's a concept that hasn't ever been really introduced into any medium, a very new and refreshing plot, I love it!

I'm sure that Image will accept you once they read it. If they haven't read it by the end of the month, you've got to send this in physically!

I wonder if you could be discovered at a convention...

[Stevens]

So few blind submissions have been accepted in their entire history that apparently you can count them on ONE HAND. Not two hands, if memory serves, but one. I don't remember if it was Larsen himself who said that in the forum, but it was one of the Image guys.

Most books you see put out through Image are brought to them in a different manner because most are by guys who have been in the industry for at least little while and have contacts.

[suttercain]

Wow! I just read the overview of your story, it's so interesting! It's like a mixture of Logan's Run and something I can't put my finger on, but it's simply wonderful! I'd publish this if I could, it's a concept that hasn't ever been really introduced into any medium, a very new and refreshing plot, I love it!

I'm sure that Image will accept you once they read it. If they haven't read it by the end of the month, you've got to send this in physically!

I wonder if you could be discovered at a convention...

Thanks for the kind words. I spent just over a year writing and re-writing characters, plots, rules, etc. It means a lot to me when others like it, so thanks again.

I'll send it in eventually. I did this for a few other publishers but it's costly. The printing and postage comes to $11.30 per proposal. It adds up quickly. If Image says they accept electronic proposals, they should accept electronic proposals.

Also, I'll be at San Diego comic con :)

So few blind submissions have been accepted in their entire history that apparently you can count them on ONE HAND. Not two hands, if memory serves, but one. I don't remember if it was Larsen himself who said that in the forum, but it was one of the Image guys.

Most books you see put out through Image are brought to them in a different manner because most are by guys who have been in the industry for at least little while and have contacts.

Hi Matt,

Yeah I've heard this too. I know a lot of getting your stuff looked at is about networking and I've been trying that so we'll see if anything pans out. The thing that bothers me the most is places that say they accept solicitations but then don't look at the solicitation. It's one thing if they look at it and pass, but to not look at it at all, sucks. It's wastes people's time, money and isn't right.

[GRANT!]

So few blind submissions have been accepted in their entire history that apparently you can count them on ONE HAND. Not two hands, if memory serves, but one. I don't remember if it was Larsen himself who said that in the forum, but it was one of the Image guys.

Most books you see put out through Image are brought to them in a different manner because most are by guys who have been in the industry for at least little while and have contacts.

This is true. It took Kirkman a few years to get a book approved by Image and when he finally did it wasn't even a blind submission since he already was doing some work for Larsen at the time.

I don't think the website is always the best way to go. Yes it's easy just to click on a link and check it out but it's also easy not to and whatever e-mail you sent can easily get ignored or forgotten about.

[suttercain]

Yes it's easy just to click on a link and check it out but it's also easy not to and whatever e-mail you sent can easily get ignored or forgotten about.

Do you think a publisher should say they accept proposals via email if a) they lose the email(s) or b) don't read/view the email nor its contents?

I know if I didn't check my emails at work or if I "forgot" about them, my job would be lost.

I have to give proper respect to TopShelfComix. I sent them the proposal and heard back from them within a couple of hours. A very polite email saying it looks like it may work better with IDW. That's all I'm saying, if you say you take submissions via email, take submissions via email.

[DungeonmasterJim]

I received a formal but pleasant 'no thank you' from Image when I sent in a hardcopy of my comic book a couple of years ago. They were one of two companies to respond. No other company responded and I sent it to like 8 to 10 publishers.


DM Jim

[yoda510]

Do you think a publisher should say they accept proposals via email if a) they lose the email(s) or b) don't read/view the email nor its contents?

I know if I didn't check my emails at work or if I "forgot" about them, my job would be lost.

I have to give proper respect to TopShelfComix. I sent them the proposal and heard back from them within a couple of hours. A very polite email saying it looks like it may work better with IDW. That's all I'm saying, if you say you take submissions via email, take submissions via email.

I just looked through your stuff, and what I am most impressed with as how much time and money you have spent on this. I don't know if this story will ever get picked up or not, but they say if you have a little talent and are willing to outwork everyone you will break through eventually. I am sure you would eventually like to bring in some dollars but you can tell it is the love of the medium and the creation more than a $ that is driving you. Good luck.

[michaeljsmith]

The bad thing is since Image is creator-owned characters that everyone thinks getting published by Image will be easy and find out that it really isn't. I know several people that have gone on to self-publication or webcomics to build up a resume. Image has a tough model. You are on your own dime until you start making sales. Millar's War Heroes has stalled for this reason. I know a lot of the creators over there have other gigs too until the money flows.

I love Image but it is not the cake walk that we all picture it will be

[Stevens]

Shannon's book is the bomb.

[suttercain]

I just looked through your stuff, and what I am most impressed with as how much time and money you have spent on this. I don't know if this story will ever get picked up or not, but they say if you have a little talent and are willing to outwork everyone you will break through eventually. I am sure you would eventually like to bring in some dollars but you can tell it is the love of the medium and the creation more than a $ that is driving you. Good luck.

Shannon's book is the bomb.

Thanks!!! :biggrin:

Well today marks the one month anniversary of when I sent the original email to image comics and they never viewed the link/proposal. According to their own site, I may now consider my comic rejected.... even though they never looked at it.

Here is the email I sent them


submissions@imagecomics.com
date Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 9:01 PM
subject Electronic Comic Proposal
mailed-by gmail.com

Dear Image Comics,

Below you will find a link to my web page that contains an e-pitch for a full color comic I'd like to publish. On the site you will find 5 finished sequential pages, character designs, story arc outline and much more.

Please visit the following link to access the e-pitch:
http://shannoncronin.com/lifespan/xxxx.html


Let me thank you in advance for your time and consideration.


Shannon Cronin
shannoncronin.com
spcronin@gmail.com
626-488-XXXX

I'm going to re-send it and ask them if I should consider it rejected even though they never looked at it. I

n other news, the comic book proposal has landed in the hands of one of the top 2 companies via a friend of a best-friend (is it all about connections or what?) and at minimum I asked for criticism and feedback.

I'll post an update if I hear back from Image.

[Samanthab]

Good luck to your endeavor mate!

[suttercain]

UPDATE

I sent the original email on March 16th, 2009. On April 16th, 2009 I forwarded the original email to Image and included the following message.


Dear Image Comics,

A month ago I sent you a link to my comic book proposal which contains everything outlined in your submission guidelines. According to your web site I should consider my proposal rejected since I have not heard back from anyone at Image. The thing is, no one from Image ever clicked the link to view the proposal.

Does Image comics accept submissions via email?

Thank you for your time.

I'll keep you posted...

[michaeljsmith]

Have you by chance asked this question on the Image Forums at www.imagecomics.com? Erik and gang are usually quick to reply

[suttercain]

Have you by chance asked this question on the Image Forums at www.imagecomics.com? Erik and gang are usually quick to reply

To be honest, I didn't even know they had a forum....:confused: I'll post it there. Thanks

[michaeljsmith]

To be honest, I didn't even know they had a forum....:confused: I'll post it there. Thanks

I saw that you posted there - hopefully that will help. Most of the Image Creators will throw their two cents in on that thread. Good luck

[Erik Larsen]

Sorry to interrupt your thread a bit, I just read this week in one of the Hellboy trades, Mignola originally went to Image with Hellboy but they turned him down as they weren't looking for that sort of thing. Now that's a mistake!

Completely untrue.

I talked to both Mike and Arthur Adams about coming up with creator-owned books at Image and they both went off and came up with the books they came up with. For whatever reason, they decided yo go with Dark Horse. Neither even pitched their books at Image.

[jediracer]

UPDATE

I sent the original email on March 16th, 2009. On April 16th, 2009 I forwarded the original email to Image and included the following message.



I'll keep you posted...

Congratulations! You have no doubt successfully annoyed the shit out of them by now....

[suttercain]

Congratulations! You have no doubt successfully annoyed the shit out of them by now....

Gee, I hope that's not the case. It wasn't my intention.

When I decided to put together a proposal and spend a lot of money on the artist, colorist and lettering I did so because Image states that they accept submissions.

I also had to take into consideration that Image wants the same artistic team aboard if they pick up a comic, so that was extra work to find a group that would agree to those terms.

With all the time, money and effort I dedicated to this project, the least a publisher can do (if they state they accept submissions) is view the submission. I don't think that's an unreasonable request.

If a publisher is back logged and can't get to them or if they are no longer accepting them, it takes 2 minutes to update the submission web page to reflect such a change.

I look at it like this. Hypothetically I run the third largest radio show in the U.S. I post on my web site that I am accepting demo tapes from bands to possibly feature on my radio show. I post stipulations that the bands must meet a certain criteria (song length, lyric sheets, etc.) Some bands would take time and possibly invest money to make a recording that complies with the guidelines for submitting a demo tape. Would it be fair for my radio show to not only not listen to the tapes, but to not even open the envelope? Wouldn't that be annoying to the musicians and artists? That's the point I am trying to convey.

I'm not saying Image won't view the proposal, but so far I have followed THEIR guidelines and I asked a valid question about the "considered rejected" term of their page. Since they have yet to view the proposal and the month has past, I don't find it out of line or should it come across as annoying.

[michaeljsmith]

Gee, I hope that's not the case. It wasn't my intention.

When I decided to put together a proposal and spend a lot of money on the artist, colorist and lettering I did so because Image states that they accept submissions.

I also had to take into consideration that Image wants the same artistic team aboard if they pick up a comic, so that was extra work to find a group that would agree to those terms.

With all the time, money and effort I dedicated to this project, the least a publisher can do (if they state they accept submissions) is view the submission. I don't think that's an unreasonable request.

If a publisher is back logged and can't get to them or if they are no longer accepting them, it takes 2 minutes to update the submission web page to reflect such a change.

I look at it like this. Hypothetically I run the third largest radio show in the U.S. I post on my web site that I am accepting demo tapes from bands to possibly feature on my radio show. I post stipulations that the bands must meet a certain criteria (song length, lyric sheets, etc.) Some bands would take time and possibly invest money to make a recording that complies with the guidelines for submitting a demo tape. Would it be fair for my radio show to not only not listen to the tapes, but to not even open the envelope? Wouldn't that be annoying to the musicians and artists? That's the point I am trying to convey.

I'm not saying Image won't view the proposal, but so far I have followed THEIR guidelines and I asked a valid question about the "considered rejected" term of their page. Since they have yet to view the proposal and the month has past, I don't find it out of line or should it come across as annoying.

I doubt you irritated anyone

[jediracer]

You're probably right, my bad. Nothing wrong with a follow-up.

[suttercain]

Image has still not viewed the comic book proposal I emailed them yet. I have submitted it twice and it's been nearly two months. Nearly double that of the "absolute certain" time frame they give on their submissions page.

My question would be this. Why ask for submissions if you're not going to look at them? I plan on asking staff in person in San Diego if I don't get a reply by the end of July.

Note: I posted this on their forums, in the Official Submissions (http://imagecomics.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?p=725312#725312) thread and so far this is the only question to go unanswered.

Just an FYI:
I got a response back from Dark Horse, Ape Entertainment and Top Shelf within two days.

[DavidAllred]

Hey Sutter,

I love the way you set up your pitch link. The only comment I would make is that Image does have a format for submissions. I'm going off memory here, but I think it's brief pitch and 5 completed pages, no more and no less. It's possible that the inclusion of the character sketches counts as a violation of the submission rules and was rejected before it was explored.

I didn't read the pitch / synopsis pages that carefully, but did you give the publisher a clear picture of how the story ended? Seems like I also recall that being a stickler in the Image submission guidelines, but I confess it has been a while since I read them.

Good luck!

[Jay Faerber]

[QUOTE=suttercain;8899981Note: I posted this on their forums, in the Official Submissions thread and so far this is the only question to go unanswered.[/QUOTE]
Oh, come on ... the Submissions thread on the Image board is 96 pages long, and you're sure this is the ONLY question that's not been answered?

Even if that's true (and I doubt it is), that's probably because the only person who can answer the question is Eric Stephenson, the publisher in charge of reading submissions. Whereas most of the other questions on that thread can -- and have -- been answered by other people, many of them fans or other Image creators.

I know you're frustrated because you haven't heard back about your pitch, but the more you complain about this, the more you come across like a cry baby.

~ Jay

[Crowforge]

I'm not sure my stuff is a good fit for image, Then again there is the teenagers a lot of blood and random violence wrapped in tights. Still, seems like a lot of hoops to jump through for a possible chance to gamble.

[Xistel]

Image has still not viewed the comic book proposal I emailed them yet. I have submitted it twice and it's been nearly two months. Nearly double that of the "absolute certain" time frame they give on their submissions page.

My question would be this. Why ask for submissions if you're not going to look at them? I plan on asking staff in person in San Diego if I don't get a reply by the end of July.

Note: I posted this on their forums, in the Official Submissions (http://imagecomics.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?p=725312#725312) thread and so far this is the only question to go unanswered.

Just an FYI:
I got a response back from Dark Horse, Ape Entertainment and Top Shelf within two days.


Hum, that's reallly wierd. Maybe the response is in your Spam mail?

[Greg Anderson]

I'm not sure my stuff is a good fit for image, Then again there is the teenagers a lot of blood and random violence wrapped in tights. Still, seems like a lot of hoops to jump through for a possible chance to gamble.

I dunno. Never heard of Bomb Queen?

[suttercain]

I know you're frustrated because you haven't heard back about your pitch, but the more you complain about this, the more you come across like a cry baby.

~ Jay

I'm not frustrated because I have not heard back, I'm frustrated because it has not been viewed contrary to what Image states on their submissions page.

I followed the Image guidelines. I spent $$$$ to hire an artist, colonist and letterer so I could have the 5 page minimum required sequential art needed for the submission. Additionally I commissioned the artist to do character designs. I don't expect to hear back from Image if they don't like it. Better believe I expect them to at least view it though.

Sniffle, sniffle.

Hum, that's reallly wierd. Maybe the response is in your Spam mail?

I wish that was the case. They never clicked the link and I don't use spam filters.

[suttercain]

Hey Sutter,

I love the way you set up your pitch link. The only comment I would make is that Image does have a format for submissions. I'm going off memory here, but I think it's brief pitch and 5 completed pages, no more and no less. It's possible that the inclusion of the character sketches counts as a violation of the submission rules and was rejected before it was explored.

I didn't read the pitch / synopsis pages that carefully, but did you give the publisher a clear picture of how the story ended? Seems like I also recall that being a stickler in the Image submission guidelines, but I confess it has been a while since I read them.

Good luck!

Hi Stamen. Thanks for the kind wishes. Yeah I was caught in a catch-22 when it came to the "Tell us how it ends" and the "Is it an ongoing Series" aspect of the submission. Because I picture the story as an ongoing series I wrote the entire first story as an outline. So at least the publisher can see how I envision the first 5 issues and how it wraps up before moving on to the next plot with the characters.

As far as the character sketches go, you got me nervous but I looked on the site again and it says "You can send character sketches and or bios, but not in lieu of storytelling pages -- we still need to see five finished pages of sequential storytelling, lettered and inked." So I think I'm good there.

Thanks again.

[G. Wayne]

Hey Sutter,

I love the way you set up your pitch link. The only comment I would make is that Image does have a format for submissions. I'm going off memory here, but I think it's brief pitch and 5 completed pages, no more and no less. It's possible that the inclusion of the character sketches counts as a violation of the submission rules and was rejected before it was explored.
...

I haven't checked in a while, but last I read, the minimum was 5 completed pages. If you had more pages, you were encouraged to send those. Character sketches appear to be relevant on a company by company basis. Some companies ask for them, some don't.

[G. Wayne]

I'm not frustrated because I have not heard back, I'm frustrated because it has not been viewed contrary to what Image states on their submissions page.

I followed the Image guidelines. I spent $$$$ to hire an artist, colonist and letterer so I could have the 5 page minimum required sequential art needed for the submission. Additionally I commissioned the artist to do character designs. I don't expect to hear back from Image if they don't like it. Better believe I expect them to at least view it though.

Sniffle, sniffle.



I wish that was the case. They never clicked the link and I don't use spam filters.

Short answer-
If my experience is any indication, odds are Image is a wee bit behind on processing submissions.

Long answer-
I worked with a studio to get a 22 page story I wrote penciled/inked/lettered with a color cover. (It was the first issue of a 5 issue mini, for what it's worth.) The interior was black and white. I sent all 22 pages plus a cover in my submission to Image around Halloween last year. December came, and I never received a response. Keeping in mind that they say something on the Image forums to the effect of "If we are interested, you will here from us within a month." I figured it was time to move on. (A different one-shot I wrote with the same characters is available for sale at my LCS. Huzzah!) A few weeks ago I checked that email for the first time this year, and lo and behold I got my response from Image back in February. In a nutshell, it said they're backed up, weren't interested at this time, and apologized for not being able to critique the submission.

[Crowforge]

I dunno. Never heard of Bomb Queen?
This was written half in jest.

[GRANT!]

Short answer-
If my experience is any indication, odds are Image is a wee bit behind on processing submissions.

Long answer-
I worked with a studio to get a 22 page story I wrote penciled/inked/lettered with a color cover. (It was the first issue of a 5 issue mini, for what it's worth.) The interior was black and white. I sent all 22 pages plus a cover in my submission to Image around Halloween last year. December came, and I never received a response. Keeping in mind that they say something on the Image forums to the effect of "If we are interested, you will here from us within a month." I figured it was time to move on. (A different one-shot I wrote with the same characters is available for sale at my LCS. Huzzah!) A few weeks ago I checked that email for the first time this year, and lo and behold I got my response from Image back in February. In a nutshell, it said they're backed up, weren't interested at this time, and apologized for not being able to critique the submission.

Sounds pretty reasonable. They don't have a large staff and they have plenty of books that they are publishing to worry about.

[suttercain]

Sounds pretty reasonable. They don't have a large staff and they have plenty of books that they are publishing to worry about.

I couldn't agree more. Hey if they're backed up, they're backed up. I would just suggest removing this part from the site: "We make absolute certain that we get in touch with submitters that we are interested in within a month of receiving them."

Because absolute certain is, well absolute certain.

[Jay Faerber]

I couldn't agree more. Hey if they're backed up, they're backed up. I would just suggest removing this part from the site: "We make absolute certain that we get in touch with submitters that we are interested in within a month of receiving them."
Except that they're too backed up to update their website!

It's funny, but true. Image is a very small operation. Like, less than a dozen people working in the Image office. And honestly, updating their website's submissions policy and responding to submissions are probably their two lowest priorities. And frankly, that's the way it should be. There are barely enough hours in the day to actually make comic books.

I know you're frustrated, but this is where you separate yourself from the pack by walking that ever-so-fine line between being persistent and annoying.

~ Jay

[Crowforge]

Why not make a web comic? If you're good then you'll generate a following, it's great practice to tighten up your art and or writing, ok it's not well paying, but you can do whatever the hell you want.

[Batman was taken]

Except that they're too backed up to update their website!

It's funny, but true. Image is a very small operation. Like, less than a dozen people working in the Image office. And honestly, updating their website's submissions policy and responding to submissions are probably their two lowest priorities. And frankly, that's the way it should be. There are barely enough hours in the day to actually make comic books.
~ Jay

It's really that small? Huh... go figure.

[suttercain]

Except that they're too backed up to update their website!

It's funny, but true. Image is a very small operation. Like, less than a dozen people working in the Image office. And honestly, updating their website's submissions policy and responding to submissions are probably their two lowest priorities. And frankly, that's the way it should be. There are barely enough hours in the day to actually make comic books.

I know you're frustrated, but this is where you separate yourself from the pack by walking that ever-so-fine line between being persistent and annoying.

~ Jay

It takes 2 minutes to update a web page. If that long. Next time the web master is making their weekly web site updates, remove that line. Simple. Problem solved. No more confusion to the readers. No more expectations. Life is easier than people make it.

At what point does it become the responsibility of the publisher to follow their own guidelines? I mean I know we're just wannabe creators but we're trying to follow the guidelines to the best of our ability.

Additionally my artist and colorist won't wait forever. Based on IMAGE's own guidelines we figured we'd hear something back within 30 days if they were interested. Here it is nearly 60 days later and they have not even looked at it. Give it another month or two and I guarantee you I won't be able to use my same artist without some sort of talks going on. It took Dark Horse 2 days to get back to me with a kind reply.

Again, if that line was removed from the site, this post would never exist. The post on image would never exist. No follow-up emails would need to be sent.

I'm old school, I do what I say I'm going to do. It's annoying to expect a company to do the same thing? I'm expected to follow the guidelines for the submission... but Image isn't?

[Kris Simon]

It takes 2 minutes to update a web page. If that long. Next time the web master is making their weekly web site updates, remove that line. Simple. Problem solved. No more confusion to the readers. No more expectations. Life is easier than people make it.

At what point does it become the responsibility of the publisher to follow their own guidelines? I mean I know we're just wannabe creators but we're trying to follow the guidelines to the best of our ability.

Additionally my artist and colorist won't wait forever. Based on IMAGE's own guidelines we figured we'd hear something back within 30 days if they were interested. Here it is nearly 60 days later and they have not even looked at it. Give it another month or two and I guarantee you I won't be able to use my same artist without some sort of talks going on. It took Dark Horse 2 days to get back to me with a kind reply.

Again, if that line was removed from the site, this post would never exist. The post on image would never exist. No follow-up emails would need to be sent.

I'm old school, I do what I say I'm going to do. It's annoying to expect a company to do the same thing? I'm expected to follow the guidelines for the submission... but Image isn't?

From reading this thread, so far I have gathered that all the major publishers have rejected this proposal, except for Image who hasn't looked at it yet. You're complaining about that fact, and have stated that even if eventually accepted, you would be unhappy because you would have to have "talks" with your creative team since Image didn't respond quickly enough.

I agree with Jay. Stop whining, you're not helping your case, you're probably making it worse. I would think you'd want to be a little more conscious of what you post publicly. You already know Larsen read this thread and he works in the same office as Stephenson. I read the thread, and I work with Valentino.

I get the submissions in for Shadowline at Image Comics, and I gotta say...if I knew you sent a submission in and were kicking up this much of a fuss on public message boards, I wouldn't bother looking at it either. Frankly, I wouldn't want to work with someone like you. This bitch-fest you are publicly stirring up is unprofessional, and you seem like you'd be a real pain in the ass to deal with. Whether this is true or not is besides the point, because that's the impression you are giving off. And you can claim that Image is the one not being professional, but the fact is that they are the publisher you want to get published by so you're at their mercy, like it or not. You're apparently not fielding off offers from multiple companies so you'd be better off keeping your mouth shut and patiently waiting. If you get accepted and your team takes on another project in the meantime, then schedule the book to be released when they are available again.

Seriously, guy. You're sabotaging yourself by posting all this crap. You may as well be taking aim at your foot with a gun.

[suttercain]

From reading this thread, so far I have gathered that all the major publishers have rejected this proposal, except for Image who hasn't looked at it yet.


Hi Kris,

Not true. I have received 1 rejection out of the 7 or 8 publishers I have sent to.


You're complaining about that fact, and have stated that even if eventually accepted, you would be unhappy because you would have to have "talks" with your creative team since Image didn't respond quickly enough.


Not true again. I would have to have talks with them because Image didn't view the proposal in the time THEY state.



I agree with Jay. Stop whining, you're not helping your case, you're probably making it worse. I would think you'd want to be a little more conscious of what you post publicly. You already know Larsen read this thread and he works in the same office as Stephenson. I read the thread, and I work with Valentino.


By writing this here I have heard from two people via Image's message board PM system who are as frustrated as I am. Additionally a third person wrote on their messages board addressing this issue. I'm just the one asking out loud about it. If that makes me a pain in the ass then I don't know what to say.

I'm not saying Image won't get to the submission(s), but if it's a lot longer than 30 days, which seems to be the norm, I am asking for the consideration to reflect this in the Submissions guideline. Why is that annoying? I think of it as considerate. If I hadn't been able to track the Image submission, I would have told the team "We were rejected. It's been 30 days."

Someone else started this thread and the topic was "Has anyone ever tried to publish with Image?" Well I'm posting my experience with trying to submit and publish with them.

[Kris Simon]

Yeah, by being the one "asking out loud about it" you're the one looking like an ass, not them. How smart is that? You've now been told by an Image creator to stop acting like a crybaby, and you've been told by an editor that you sound like a pain in the ass to work with. And now you're arguing with me, which so doesn't help your case. But hey...I was just giving you a piece of advice. If you don't want to take it, suit yourself. Everyone else can learn from your example, I'm sure.

Good luck getting that submission viewed. Perhaps you should move on and consider one of your other choices. It'll just be Image's loss, right?

p.s. Also, wouldn't Top Shelf and Dark Horse be considered two rejections? Top Shelf recommending IDW is a rejection, and if "kind reply" from Dark Horse means it wasn't rejected, then don't wait for Image, go to Dark Horse. They pay a page rate, Image is back-end. Then you won't have to worry about your team. Plus, you'd have more of a chance of your book being made into a movie. Just sayin'.

[suttercain]

p.s. Also, wouldn't Top Shelf and Dark Horse be considered two rejections? Top Shelf recommending IDW is a rejection, and if "kind reply" from Dark Horse means it wasn't rejected, then don't wait for Image, go to Dark Horse. They pay a page rate, Image is back-end. Then you won't have to worry about your team. Plus, you'd have more of a chance of your book being made into a movie. Just sayin'.

Dark Horse didn't reject it. Top Shelf was not a submission I asked for feedback from Brett.

Honestly I am not trying to argue with anyone. I'm really not.

[Kris Simon]

Dark Horse didn't reject it. Top Shelf was not a submission I asked for feedback from Brett.

Honestly I am not trying to argue with anyone. I'm really not.

Okay, well then go with Dark Horse if they didn't reject it. You'll most likely make more money with the way things are in the industry right now.

And if you're not trying to argue, then you need to try a little harder not to, because that's what it looks like to me. July books are being turned over, and if they are being printed overseas, then they have been dealing with them for the last month or more. July being the busiest month of the year due to SDCC. Actually, I've already been required to turn over books coming out in August two weeks back because of the backlog that happens in July. But hey...who gives a crap about that when there is a submission to be clicked on, right?

Every post you made is a complaint against Image and their policies and statements and what they can do to make things right with you. You're acting like Image owes you something because they didn't deliver on some personal promise they made to you, when in reality, they are probably just too overworked and busy actually trying to get books out on time to pay attention to a sentence on the website because of some guy acting like a douche on their message board.

Sorry, but that's how it looks coming from my perspective.

[suttercain]

If that's how it came across it is not my intention. Really.

By the way, yes, I want the world to stop so my submission can be seen.... Really? Nope. What I expect is nothing more than what is specified in the submission guidelines of any publisher. I seriously don't see why that is asking too much.

[Erik Larsen]

I'm not frustrated because I have not heard back, I'm frustrated because it has not been viewed contrary to what Image states on their submissions page.

I followed the Image guidelines. I spent $$$$ to hire an artist, colonist and letterer so I could have the 5 page minimum required sequential art needed for the submission. Additionally I commissioned the artist to do character designs. I don't expect to hear back from Image if they don't like it. Better believe I expect them to at least view it though.

Sniffle, sniffle.

Then send jpegs. They're easy to make and will open when you open the email. It's not rocket science.

The real problem is that 99% of the material sent is amateurish garbage. Most of the rest is passable but dull. In the 17-year existence of Image Comics the number of books picked from the submission heap is remarkably small and the list of success stories is smaller still. The publisher has a lot of duties which need to be attended to--since slogging through the submission pile is akin to playing the lottery--it's not a high priority. If an email requires the publisher to chase you down--chances are--they're not going to do the chasing. Based on past experience--it's not worth the effort. So, you need to make things easy. Provide jpegs--or go to the post office and physically mail samples.

If your work is outstanding you will hear back. If it's not--you may or may not.

[suttercain]

Then send jpegs. They're easy to make and will open when you open the email. It's not rocket science.

The real problem is that 99% of the material sent is amateurish garbage. Most of the rest is passable but dull. In the 17-year existence of Image Comics the number of books picked from the submission heap is remarkably small and the list of success stories is smaller still. The publisher has a lot of duties which need to be attended to--since slogging through the submission pile is akin to playing the lottery--it's not a high priority. If an email requires the publisher to chase you down--chances are--they're not going to do the chasing. Based on past experience--it's not worth the effort. So, you need to make things easy. Provide jpegs--or go to the post office and physically mail samples.

If your work is outstanding you will hear back. If it's not--you may or may not.

Thank you Erik. I really appreciate your insight.

I'm with you on submissions. When I announced I needed an artist I got like 30 emails a day, none of which were any good. Finding a colorist was even harder. I really did try to make it as easy as possible with the web link. I feared attaching jpegs may get flagged as a virus, depending on the email software.

Again, I really do thank you for your insight. It means a lot to me.

[RedGambit]

From reading this thread, so far I have gathered that all the major publishers have rejected this proposal, except for Image who hasn't looked at it yet. You're complaining about that fact, and have stated that even if eventually accepted, you would be unhappy because you would have to have "talks" with your creative team since Image didn't respond quickly enough.

I agree with Jay. Stop whining, you're not helping your case, you're probably making it worse. I would think you'd want to be a little more conscious of what you post publicly. You already know Larsen read this thread and he works in the same office as Stephenson. I read the thread, and I work with Valentino.

I get the submissions in for Shadowline at Image Comics, and I gotta say...if I knew you sent a submission in and were kicking up this much of a fuss on public message boards, I wouldn't bother looking at it either. Frankly, I wouldn't want to work with someone like you. This bitch-fest you are publicly stirring up is unprofessional, and you seem like you'd be a real pain in the ass to deal with. Whether this is true or not is besides the point, because that's the impression you are giving off. And you can claim that Image is the one not being professional, but the fact is that they are the publisher you want to get published by so you're at their mercy, like it or not. You're apparently not fielding off offers from multiple companies so you'd be better off keeping your mouth shut and patiently waiting. If you get accepted and your team takes on another project in the meantime, then schedule the book to be released when they are available again.

Seriously, guy. You're sabotaging yourself by posting all this crap. You may as well be taking aim at your foot with a gun.
Yeah, by being the one "asking out loud about it" you're the one looking like an ass, not them. How smart is that? You've now been told by an Image creator to stop acting like a crybaby, and you've been told by an editor that you sound like a pain in the ass to work with. And now you're arguing with me, which so doesn't help your case. But hey...I was just giving you a piece of advice. If you don't want to take it, suit yourself. Everyone else can learn from your example, I'm sure.

Good luck getting that submission viewed. Perhaps you should move on and consider one of your other choices. It'll just be Image's loss, right?

p.s. Also, wouldn't Top Shelf and Dark Horse be considered two rejections? Top Shelf recommending IDW is a rejection, and if "kind reply" from Dark Horse means it wasn't rejected, then don't wait for Image, go to Dark Horse. They pay a page rate, Image is back-end. Then you won't have to worry about your team. Plus, you'd have more of a chance of your book being made into a movie. Just sayin'.


Wow.

I would absolutely love to work with you and your company. You seem so even-tempered and patient, I'm sure it would be a treat to do business.

Seriously, though, if I spoke (never mind wrote in a public forum) to a customer this way while representing my employer, I would be fired by that afternoon.

Regardless of what you think of his question, this response is ridiculously unprofessional. I know, I know, you're the submissions editor for Shadowline, and that's cool. I hope your ego is satisfied now that you've vented your wrath like a small child against someone with little or no clout to defend themselves with.

Rest assured you won't have to do business with me in any capacity. Neither I nor my friends will be buying any book Shadowline prints.

[G. Oak]

Wow.

Regardless of what you think of his question, this response is ridiculously unprofessional.
I do not understand how frank and honest no-bullshit responses based on reality and experience equate to unprofessionalism.

Neither I nor my friends will be buying any book Shadowline prints.
Now who's being unprofessional? I'm sorry, but that statement was just incredibly fucking stupid. YOU don't care for how an editor expressed themselves on a message board, so you're going to boycott the books of independent creators (who already make very little to begin with) just because their books are associated with said editor? Great job.

[RedGambit]

I do not understand how frank and honest no-bullshit responses based on reality and experience equate to unprofessionalism.


When someone represents their employer and responds to a customer with swearing and rudeness, that is indeed unprofessional. If a bank teller told you "Good luck getting that submission viewed" and that you were being "a pain in the ass to work with" when you asked them about a loan application, you can bet that the bank teller would be considered unprofessional and likely disciplined, if not fired for speaking to a customer that way.

Now who's being unprofessional? I'm sorry, but that statement was just incredibly fucking stupid. YOU don't care for how an editor expressed themselves on a message board, so you're going to boycott the books of independent creators (who already make very little to begin with) just because their books are associated with said editor? Great job.

I don't represent anything other than a person who disapproves of treating one's customers like garbage. I am opposed to this particular editor's lack of professionalism when dealing with a customer, and by extension, the business practices of the company she represents. How much money Shadowline creators make is utterly immaterial to this conversation. Shadowline is not entitled to my business. If I choose not to do business with a company whose practices I disagree with, I am not being unprofessional, I am exercising my right as a consumer to do what I please with my money.

[G. Oak]

Shadowline is not entitled to my business.
No, nobody is "entitled" to your business, but my point was that when you boycott a company that exclusively publishes independent creator-owned work, it is the individual creators who actually suffer. You may spend your money however you like, of course -- but here's a hypothetical: you see a book on the stands that looks awesome... you are about to buy it... and then you notice that it is from Shadowline... so you put it back? That's incredibly closed-minded.

How much money Shadowline creators make is utterly immaterial to this conversation.
It actually is relevant, because you're essentially saying that a company branding is reason enough to NOT buy a book. Independents have the deck stacked against them enough as it is for them to lose additional audiences and/or sales through what you perceive is guilt by association.

[suttercain]

It actually is relevant, because you're essentially saying that a company branding is reason enough to NOT buy a book. Independents have the deck stacked against them enough as it is for them to lose additional audiences and/or sales through what you perceive is guilt by association.

Based on what you wrote. Should an editor cut off an entire creative team because of the perceived action of one person? Just playing devil's advocate.

[Crowforge]

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b281/Frost327/Joker/1181911796832.gif

[G. Oak]

Should an editor cut off an entire creative team because of the perceived action of one person?

Of course not -- which is why it's in the best interests of that one person to work hard to NOT be perceived in a negative light.

[suttercain]

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b281/Frost327/Joker/1181911796832.gif

Oh stop it.

[RedGambit]

No, nobody is "entitled" to your business, but my point was that when you boycott a company that exclusively publishes independent creator-owned work, it is the individual creators who actually suffer. You may spend your money however you like, of course -- but here's a hypothetical: you see a book on the stands that looks awesome... you are about to buy it... and then you notice that it is from Shadowline... so you put it back? That's incredibly closed-minded.

Perhaps I should elaborate. My unwillingness to do business with Shadowline stems from my problem with their practices concerning customer service. To go back to my bank analogy, very few people continue to hold accounts at a bank after receiving or witnessing terrible customer service unless something is done to rectify the problem.

This is not the first time I have witnessed Kris treating Shadowline's customers rudely while representing the company, and due to the lack of disciplinary action (the problem persists to this day) or expression of remorse on her part, I can come to no other conclusion than the fact that Shadowline either condones or ignores this kind of behavior on the part of its representative employees.

Concerning your hypothetical, you can call me closed-minded if you want, but any company that sees me--their customer--one of the people they count on to stay in business--as something they can take for granted to the point that they believe they can verbally abuse me or anyone in my situation, they don't deserve my business. Most likely, though, I won't be looking for Shadowline books to begin with. If an extremely wonderful book came across under Shadowline and I decided that I must have it, I would be perfectly happy to purchase it from the creator directly.

Here's another hypothetical. If you were to find out that a company actively supported white supremacist groups, would you continue to purchase their products, regardless of the quality? I'm not trying to equate a complete lack of basic customer service skills with white supremacy, but it might take an extreme example to get my point across.

It actually is relevant, because you're essentially saying that a company branding is reason enough to NOT buy a book. Independents have the deck stacked against them enough as it is for them to lose additional audiences and/or sales through what you perceive is guilt by association.

Yes, that's correct. I would do the same thing if I witnessed a Marvel or DC editor cursing out one of their customers, just as I would immediately leave a store if I saw an employee cursing out one of their customers--especially if it happened more than once. One doesn't see that, however, because Marvel and DC demand a degree of professionalism from their representatives. Image proper has held the same standards, for that matter, as has Dark Horse, Red 5, Ape Entertainment, Avatar Press, Target, Walgreens, Cub Foods, Wells Fargo Bank, Tim Horton's, Blockbuster Video, Netflicks, the little co-op on the corner, and virtually every other business I have interacted with.

This is the essence of professionalism. You need it if you want your customers to come back and spend money with you after their first experience. How many times have you heard someone say that they won't return to a particular store because they were treated badly? It happens quite often, and this is simply another example.

If I had a comic book idea to pitch, I wouldn't dream of doing it with Shadowline, given the way this guy has been treated. I'd still submit to Image proper, even though that's the company he seems to have been having trouble with. Even though Erik Larsen is no longer Publisher, he gave a no-nonsense answer to his question and provided a possible solution, all without swearing or becoming irate. I'll quote it below:

Then send jpegs. They're easy to make and will open when you open the email. It's not rocket science.

The real problem is that 99% of the material sent is amateurish garbage. Most of the rest is passable but dull. In the 17-year existence of Image Comics the number of books picked from the submission heap is remarkably small and the list of success stories is smaller still. The publisher has a lot of duties which need to be attended to--since slogging through the submission pile is akin to playing the lottery--it's not a high priority. If an email requires the publisher to chase you down--chances are--they're not going to do the chasing. Based on past experience--it's not worth the effort. So, you need to make things easy. Provide jpegs--or go to the post office and physically mail samples.

If your work is outstanding you will hear back. If it's not--you may or may not.

This is the proper way to handle the situation. Erik explained the difficulties that publishers face simply, pointedly, and politely. He gave him the cold, hard facts about the success rates of cold submissions, and he gave him a suggestion to ensure that his pitch was viewed, regardless of the final outcome.

Erik Larsen's post is what being a professional representative is. What Kris did is most certainly not.

[suttercain]

Of course not -- which is why it's in the best interests of that one person to work hard to NOT be perceived in a negative light.

I have said this time and time again; all I asked for is the publisher, any publisher, to follow their own guidelines. From the emails I've been getting it appears that most people agree with me but are afraid of retribution for saying so. If that means I'm an asshole, a hard person to work with or a crybaby, so be it. I'm not a fan of double standards and sometimes I tend to vocalize this opinion.

I take no issue with any publisher's policies. But if someone, anyone, publisher, friend or family member says they're going to do something... do it. It's not hard. If you can't do it, say "my bad, sorry I wasn't able to do that thing I said I was going to do." But instead Kris seems to be of the mindset "Fuck you for expecting them to do what they specify!" I don't agree with this view point that "They're the publisher. You are nobody. Shut up and sing." attitude. Damn, I feel like a Dixie Chick.

When all is said and done I believe it comes down to expectations. The publisher expects you to follow their guidelines when submitting. I expect that if I follow these guidelines, so should the publisher. I don't expect a response, reply or deal. Kris and Jay seem to feel that my expectation is unreasonable.

[Jay Faerber]

When all is said and done I believe it comes down to expectations. The publisher expects you to follow their guidelines when submitting. I expect that if I follow these guidelines, so should the publisher. I don't expect a response, reply or deal. Kris and Jay seem to feel that my expectation is unreasonable.
I don't think your expectation is unreasonable. I just think the way you're handling your frustration/disappointment isn't really doing you any favors. Even though you may be in the right, like I said before, you're not coming across very well.

~ Jay

[Jay Faerber]

Perhaps I should elaborate. My unwillingness to do business with Shadowline stems from my problem with their practices concerning customer service. To go back to my bank analogy, very few people continue to hold accounts at a bank after receiving or witnessing terrible customer service unless something is done to rectify the problem.
Just for the record, Image and Shadowline's "customers" aren't the people who create (or hope to create) their books. Technically, their customers are retailers.

Someone who submits a book to Image or Shadowline isn't their customer. A more accurate analogy would be that someone who submits a book is an employee (although that's not really accurate either -- they're more like a contractor).

I realize a good portion of fans want to create comics, and pretty much all comic creators started out as comic fans, so the line can get blurred. But still ... people submitting books to Image aren't "customers," so they're not "always right," as the saying goes.

Think about it this way -- you'd interact totally differently with the manager of a local bank if you were a customer, versus if you were applying for a job at that bank, right?

~ Jay

[suttercain]

Of course not -- which is why it's in the best interests of that one person to work hard to NOT be perceived in a negative light.

I don't think your expectation is unreasonable. I just think the way you're handling your frustration/disappointment isn't really doing you any favors. Even though you may be in the right, like I said before, you're not coming across very well.

~ Jay

We have got to stop cross forum writing like this. I just wrote back on Image :eek:

[RedGambit]

Just for the record, Image and Shadowline's "customers" aren't the people who create (or hope to create) their books. Technically, their customers are retailers.

Someone who submits a book to Image or Shadowline isn't their customer. A more accurate analogy would be that someone who submits a book is an employee (although that's not really accurate either -- they're more like a contractor).

I realize a good portion of fans want to create comics, and pretty much all comic creators started out as comic fans, so the line can get blurred. But still ... people submitting books to Image aren't "customers," so they're not "always right," as the saying goes.

Think about it this way -- you'd interact totally differently with the manager of a local bank if you were a customer, versus if you were applying for a job at that bank, right?

~ Jay

That may be true, but does that then give the prospective employer the right to curse them out? Does it make it any more professional to do so in public? Once again going back to the bank analogy, are you saying that it would be appropriate if a bank manager spoke that way to someone handing in a job application?

Considering the working relationship has not been established, the prospective employee is on a basis with the company more akin to a customer than an employee. Assuming the prospective employee continues to purchase the company's goods, the relationship immediately reverts back to a customer/business relationship once all pretense of employment ends.

Are you seriously going to tell me that Kris handled the situation in a proper manner, especially in contrast to the way Erik handled it?

[Jay Faerber]

Are you seriously going to tell me that Kris handled the situation in a proper manner, especially in contrast to the way Erik handled it?
What "situation" did she "handle?" She chimed in on a message board. Kris tends to be blunt and not sugar-coat things. I like that about her.

Erik can be even MORE blunt. When he was publisher, I was going over some costume designs with him for Dynamo 5 and he told me the characters looked "like homeless people." Talk about not sugar-coating it!

But you just gotta roll with that stuff and have a thick skin if you're going to be creating comics.

I'm not telling you what to think. If Kris' postings rubbed you the wrong way, so be it. I was just taking issue with the "how dare she talk to a customer like that!"-slant of your message.

~ Jay

[GRANT!]

What "situation" did she "handle?" She chimed in on a message board. Kris tends to be blunt and not sugar-coat things. I like that about her.

It's kind of an ideal trait in an editor actually.

[RedGambit]

What "situation" did she "handle?" She chimed in on a message board.
In that case, you've somewhat made my point for me. You're right, I misspoke there. Her post was neither helpful nor solved the issue at hand, which leads me to wonder why she posted at all if she is incapable of projecting a professional image (no pun intended) for Shadowline.

You didn't answer my first question. Does that then give the prospective employer the right to curse them out? Does it make it any more professional to do so in public?


Erik can be even MORE blunt. When he was publisher, I was going over some costume designs with him for Dynamo 5 and he told me the characters looked "like homeless people." Talk about not sugar-coating it!

And that's perfectly acceptable when dealing with Erik as creator to publisher. You need bluntness in an editor, but to me, bluntness between co-workers and rudeness to a random individual interested in your company are not the same thing.


I'm not telling you what to think. If Kris' postings rubbed you the wrong way, so be it. I was just taking issue with the "how dare she talk to a customer like that!"-slant of your message.

~ Jay

Then we can agree to disagree. I was just taking issue with the "I am God and you are an insect" slant of her message.

[Batman was taken]

In that case, you've somewhat made my point for me. You're right, I misspoke there. Her post was neither helpful nor solved the issue at hand, which leads me to wonder why she posted at all if she is incapable of projecting a professional image (no pun intended) for Shadowline.


Well, to be fair, I doubt she was on the clock when posting that. Just another person perusing a message board.

[Jay Faerber]

You didn't answer my first question. Does that then give the prospective employer the right to curse them out? Does it make it any more professional to do so in public?
I'm not sure what you mean by "cursing him out." Nearest I can tell, you're referring to where she wrote: "Yeah, by being the one 'asking out loud about it' you're the one looking like an ass, not them." I mean, I guess "ass" is a curse for some people, but I don't really agree that Kris "cursed him out."

And I don't think what Kris wrote was any more professional than what Erik wrote. But I also don't think it was less professional, either.

Bottom line, I have no problem with what Kris wrote.

~ Jay

[DavidAllred]

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b281/Frost327/Joker/1181911796832.gif

Ok Crow, you made me fall out of chair laughing with that gif. Where do I sue for damages?

[Erik Larsen]

I don't think your expectation is unreasonable. I just think the way you're handling your frustration/disappointment isn't really doing you any favors. Even though you may be in the right, like I said before, you're not coming across very well.

That may be the case--but honestly--a worthwhile book is a worthwhile book and we'd be nuts to pass on a great book because of some minor transgression on a message board. Yeah, if somebody seemed completely insane of was a complete prick that might come into play as it would reflect poorly on the company but I haven't read anything remotely like that here.

[RedGambit]

Bottom line, I have no problem with what Kris wrote.

~ Jay

Then we have nothing further to discuss.

[Kylun123]

Honestly, I thought Ms. Simon's criticisms were right on target.

Obviously, she was somewhat blunt but I don't see how that speaks less of her (and certainly not less of the books being published by Shadowline, which I will now go take a look at).

And to Red Gambit going on about customers, clearly in this capacity Mr Cain was looking for a job. The advice she gave to stop insulting the company he's looking to be hired with in a public forum seems sound.

He got the answers he was looking for regarding a backlog and why his submission hasn't been viewed yet.

Agreeably, many of us who have viewed his material here have been quite impressed, but that obviously doesn't mean a company is going to sign him up.

As Mr. Larsen said, the work will speak for itself and to a degree Sutter's actions won't affect the decision, however, perhaps a more productive dialogue would have been one where he finds alternative ways to reach the publisher, considering his web-submission hadn't taken.

[botmaster2020]

Sorry but I just got onto this thread over as a luker from the Image forums. "suttercain" please stop and everyone helping him should just stop because this is not helping anyone. I had a personal run-in with Kris Simon and Larsen about two years ago and learned some serious lesson from it. Kris Simon can be very blunt because she called me an "ass" once on a forum like she did to you; though not the same word but still and I didn't wined like you did. I hold no personal vendetta against Image or anything now because it's life and let's just keep moving on. If Image rejected you and so did the other publishers then your pitch is probably not holding up to their standard. Here's what I learned.....COME UP WITH SOMETHING ELSE......or do web comics or self publish. There are other options so choose one and move on. Though I would suggest some other field other than comics because now almost everyone know your name from reading this thread. WHAT?!? You don't think the Image people have friends at other publishers?

[GRANT!]

Sorry but I just got onto this thread over as a luker from the Image forums. "suttercain" please stop and everyone helping him should just stop because this is not helping anyone. I had a personal run-in with Kris Simon and Larsen about two years ago and learned some serious lesson from it. Kris Simon can be very blunt because she called me an "ass" once on a forum like she did to you; though not the same word but still and I didn't wined like you did. I hold no personal vendetta against Image or anything now because it's life and let's just keep moving on. If Image rejected you and so did the other publishers then your pitch is probably not holding up to their standard. Here's what I learned.....COME UP WITH SOMETHING ELSE......or do web comics or self publish. There are other options so choose one and move on. Though I would suggest some other field other than comics because now almost everyone know your name from reading this thread. WHAT?!? You don't think the Image people have friends at other publishers?

I think this has all been settled. Suttercain received a reasonable response on why he hasn't heard back on his pitch and he seems to have no issues with this. Let's stay focused on the topic which is publishing at Image and move on.

[Jay Faerber]

That may be the case--but honestly--a worthwhile book is a worthwhile book and we'd be nuts to pass on a great book because of some minor transgression on a message board. Yeah, if somebody seemed completely insane of was a complete prick that might come into play as it would reflect poorly on the company but I haven't read anything remotely like that here.
Yeah, I didn't mean to give the impression that the guy was destroying any hope he had for a career. Just that he might want to rethink how he was coming across. No big deal.

~ Jay

[Erik Larsen]

I would suggest some other field other than comics because now almost everyone know your name from reading this thread. WHAT?!? You don't think the Image people have friends at other publishers?

Except--they don't all know his real name and most don't read every post in every thread on every message board. We don't all get together and decide who to blackball from the comic book field while we're shooting pool and drinking beers.

If the book is good--you will find a publisher--period. Now, it may not be a good publisher--and if you're unreasonable you may not be able to strike a deal but we're all in this business to sell comics and if it looks as though your book could sell--there will be parties interested in publishing your book no matter how winey you are on a message board.

[Kris Simon]

Okay, number one...I didn't cuss anyone out. And number two, Kylun123 pretty much summed things up accurately.

I was trying to give suttercain (whose real name I do NOT know or take note of) a piece of advice. I told him how his actions were being perceived from another perspective. If I was too blunt and rude for some people, it was certainly not my intention.

He is not a customer, he's essentially a person interviewing for a job. And before the company even looked at his resume, he was complaining about that company. Publicly, to lots of people. In places employee's of said company frequent.

As Erik noted, submissions are at the bottom of the priority list, and as I noted, they probably should get around to changing that line. But is it REALLY something to get this upset about? We're all adults, we know the world doesn't revolve around us.

[skatalite]

Kris rules. I wish people were more blunt like that.

As for Shannon: Best of luck to you.

[Nick Spencer]

Kris Simon and Jim Valentino are great to work with and do as much to help find and develop new talent as anyone in the industry. I realize that sounds ass-kissy or whatever since I'm doing a book with them right now, but if it weren't the case I would've just pretended I didn't see this thread.

The thing I worry about when I see threads like this is how tempting it must make it for editors and publishers to just scrap their open submissions policies altogether. Believe me, they'd still do just fine.

Let me give you a firsthand example of something similar that happened to me. There is an editor at one of the "big two" that I was lucky enough to connect with back in October who agreed to look at some 1-pages pitches from me. Awesome. Here's the thing: he hasn't gotten the chance yet (yes, I realize it's May). I send him an email every couple weeks with different ideas and updates on projects I'm doing. 90 percent of the emails I send him, he doesn't have time to respond to, let alone look at the pitches. Do I get upset? Of course not! First off, he's a busy, busy guy. Looking at submissions is at the bottom of an insanely long to-do list. I could say, 'oh well, he TOLD me he would look at them,' but in doing so, I'd be conveniently ignoring the fact that in agreeing to that, he was doing me a FAVOR. So after months of emailing every few weeks and almost no response, I met this editor in person for the first time at NYCC. I thought he wouldn't remember my name, or worse, be annoyed at me for continuing to send emails when he wasn't responding. Instead, he recalled my name immediately and told me I was doing exactly the right thing and to just keep sending them in, eventually he'd get there. And so I do.

If I'd sent him some angry 'why aren't you responding when you said you would!' email a month before that or publicly railed about it on the interwebs... wow. I'd have burned a bridge that may some day, maybe, hopefully, get me a dream gig. Not only that, but I'd be in the wrong for forgetting that this is all based on a favor.

And that's essentially the same deal with Image. They have a true open submissions policy. Plenty of publishers have closed themselves off and work through networks of established pros, and they do just fine. Image at least makes an effort. I'm sure sometimes the system doesn't work smoothly, but it's there. They could get back to you in 24 hours, sure, but personally, form letters and automated responses are a poor substitute for what Image offers us.

All that said, I completely sympathize with your frustration. I know exactly how it feels to pour so much time, effort, and money into something like this and then not feel like it's getting a fair chance. But no one EVER said this would be easy. Hang in there. As someone who almost gave up at one point and is now finally seeing his dream become a reality, I can tell you firsthand, it's worth it. But venting those angers publicly isn't.

Good luck!

[Menton3]

And that's essentially the same deal with Image. They have a true open submissions policy. Plenty of publishers have closed themselves off and work through networks of established pros, and they do just fine. Image at least makes an effort. I'm sure sometimes the system doesn't work smoothly, but it's there. They could get back to you in 24 hours, sure, but personally, form letters and automated responses are a poor substitute for what Image offers us.

All that said, I completely sympathize with your frustration. I know exactly how it feels to pour so much time, effort, and money into something like this and then not feel like it's getting a fair chance. But no one EVER said this would be easy. Hang in there. As someone who almost gave up at one point and is now finally seeing his dream become a reality, I can tell you firsthand, it's worth it.

Good luck!

I have to completely agree, very well put Nick. I mean lets face it , the reason we are all sending in submission to Image is that we like the company, they do great work. But in someways it is a great deal like buying a lottery ticket , if you have waged all your bets of paying rent with the winnings, you might need to start looking at what kind of cardboard box go's well with your complexion.

From what I can imagine and have heard, the Image submissions folder is like a nefariousness pathological daemon child. ( wait that might be a good idea for a character for you guys , Spawn go's to hell and must face the SUBMISSIONS FOLDER !!! ) So I think even getting your submission seen might have to do with a day when there is not much for a Image publisher to do ... which I am sure there are SOO many days where Eric Stephenson just sits around hoping for more work.

I think in the end make something great, that YOU love. Keep improving what you do, and just do not stop for anything. Do think Stan Lee or Will Eisner would have stopped what they were doing when faced with a challenge ?

[Stevens]

Well, let me throw my hat in here... As the man behind Savage Dragon stated, Image has picked just a few titles from the years and years of blind submissions they have received. If I can recall correctly, you can count them on one hand. The only one out there right now is PROOF and it is struggling, despite it being a damn fine read. Damn fine.

Image's titles are 99.9% submitted in a different way, since 99.9% of them are done via professionals who contact them by other means. Use your brain, people. You should understand how it's done.

Image used to respond to submitters. Erik responded to the two pitches I sent him back in late 2007, early 2008. One he liked, but didn't think he could sell (it's not standard comic book stuff) and the other he was more "meh" on.

I sent two pitches to Jim at Shadowline as well. The first he thought looked and read very well, but felt it wouldn't sell because it was really out there. The second he said YES then changed his mind to NO a few weeks later without explanation. That crushed me.

Since then all of those projects have had been pitched elsewhere and I have received a number of YES responses. The problem is, the deals offered are so bad as to be ridiculous. The artists involved have balked because they know they will make NOTHING. Most of the artists involved have had some dealings with mid and small publishers in the last few years and have grown frustrated at not being paid a dime. All but two of the artists have moved onto non-comic book stuff because they have to be able to eat.

Most publishers out there pay zero up front and want to give you 40% of the "profits" without providing specifics of what would quality as a profit. A few very well known companies want the writer/artist to pay all advertising and printing costs and then, still only get half the profit. So they do NOTHING and pay for NOTHING and reap half the reard. No risk to them, all the risk to the book's creator. That's horse pucky. Were I am artist, I would take the chance to get published, but I am a writer and need an artist to make my projects happen.

One company was on board my best project with a good deal for the artists and I and then went fricken bankrupt. That was hell on a stick. :mad:

Now, I can tell you that Kris (editor Girl) is a very nice gal, but she can, like anyone else around here, sometimes act not so nice. She once asked a question in her forum as to why people were not buying Shadowline titles and my answer resulted in a pretty mean response from her. I called her on it, explaining what I meant by my answer and she responded right back that she was sorry. Now that is classy and few have that kind character to admit that yeah, they were having a bad day. Would you admit to it? Would I? :redface:

I think Shadowline has been suffering because they have been choosing the wrong books. Their stuff is really not all that commercial, in my view. The project of mine that they said YES and then NO to was exceedingly commercial, which is why every single small publisher out there wants to do it.

Unfortunatey, the main artist on it was crushed when the publisher who stepped in for it went bust. He then grew frustrated with the BS of comic book publishers not wanting to offer any kind of a decent deal and so he moved on to designing vid games and is now making sh!tloads of money.

Comic books in the USA are nearing death. It's been a slow strangulation. BOMB QUEEN is Shadowline's best selling title and it does around 5,000 floppies. Most independent titles sell around 3,000. That is loooooow and the industry cannot survive with those numbers. Numbers that cntinue to drop each month.

By the way, I think Suttercain's book is better than a lot of stuff put out by most of the smaller publishers.

By the way, here is the comic book rejected by Erik. The one he liked. In fact, everyone really likes it, so much so that some publishers have said they would publish it as a tpb if I could get it finished. Wish I could, but I do not have the money to pay the artist fot another seven issues. I finished issue #1, which you can find here:
http://store.comixpress.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1319&zenid=kn35lq4s91q4tpoaurddrb3h56

I may go the on-line rought with it and have a work in progress here:
http://fatpigwhore.com/

[Erik Larsen]

The Luna brothers submitted "Ultra" blind (although it was called "Heroine" at the time) and Jonathan Hickman submitted "The Nightly News" blind and there have been a few others. Often it's a case of people already being published recommending that we look at books by friends of theirs.

[Herr Mike]

I think the problem with most submissions is that they just aren't nearly good enough. :)

And if the writing and concept is good enough, the art isn't.

I wish I could come up with something worth submitting, but I always have nagging doubts about it. And if the creator has nagging doubts about something, it's almost certainly not good enough.

[suttercain]

Alright, how about a comic book based on the character/film "Pootie Tang (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0258038/)?" Huh? Huh?

[DavidAllred]

Most publishers out there pay zero up front and want to give you 40% of the "profits" without providing specifics of what would quality as a profit. A few very well known companies want the writer/artist to pay all advertising and printing costs and then, still only get half the profit. So they do NOTHING and pay for NOTHING and reap half the reard. No risk to them, all the risk to the book's creator. That's horse pucky. Were I am artist, I would take the chance to get published, but I am a writer and need an artist to make my projects happen.

I think this is exactly why so many of us lurkers do end up reading this thread quite a bit. Everyone I've spoken with has said time and time again that Image is the gold standard for an independent creator to get his/her start. I lurk around here, lurk the Image boards, and the Shadowline forums. It's worth the time just soaking in information. I'm not sure that it's always that easy to see the huge edge having a thread like this gives a potential creator in understanding the market.

I think Shadowline has been suffering because they have been choosing the wrong books. Their stuff is really not all that commercial, in my view.

We'd need another thread to discuss this, but I kind of hold an opposite view. Commericality is what is killing the industry as a whole and the small press publishers exist because of it. Every small press needs a niche, or a 'branding' for their products, I don't doubt that at all. But once you get one, you can sort of be in a Catch-22 real quick.

Comic books in the USA are nearing death. It's been a slow strangulation. BOMB QUEEN is Shadowline's best selling title and it does around 5,000 floppies. Most independent titles sell around 3,000. That is loooooow and the industry cannot survive with those numbers. Numbers that cntinue to drop each month.

When Comics do die out (and I think they will slowly due to price-jacking, delays, and rehashed content), then companies like Image will be best positioned to adapt to any change in the market. The independents will be the ones who benefit from a market collapse unless the anti-trust laws fail us and the big two control distribution to surviving LCS or strike up pre-arranged deals wtih the big book sellers to corner the market on the next wave of sequential story-telling.

A perfect example of this is Silverline titles, ready to fill the gap that's likely to come. I surprised the idea hasn't been completely stolen from Image and retooled by a big money company with deep pockets. Either way, it sort of demonstrates what Image is capable of doing in a topsy-turvy market. The process on establishing a Silverline-like story outlet with specified marketing across many different story-types is likely what will happen as floppies die.

This would be an interesting topic I think on its own, and probably shouldn't be continued in this thread because its sort of a derail. I apologize.

[Mikey]

Regardless of how you perceive suttercain's activity and comments on the thread he made a valid point that no one has addressed yet. Image should get around to revising the submissions guidelines section on their website.

If they state "...IF YOU DO NOT RECEIVE A REPLY WITHIN A MONTH, YOU SHOULD CONSIDER YOUR PROPOSAL REJECTED. We make absolute certain that we get in touch with submitters that we are interested in within a month of receiving them." and they don't have the resources to even view all the incoming submissions at that pace they should have that reflected on their website (something most people will see as the face/body of a company).

The FAQS section of the site says that the website is updated almost daily. With submissions questions linking people to the submission guidelines section of the site.

I hardly think suttercain should be lynched over making a valid criticism of the submissions guideline. The guy put in a lot of time and effort in his pitch with other people invested in it too. If he didn't have a way of tracking whether the page was viewed by Image or not he and a lot of other people who otherwise would remain unaware, operating under the impression that their material had been viewed and rejected.

I'll also agree professionalism runs both ways. Image made their guidelines and are capable of changing them. Suttercain is just holding the company and himself to Image's rules on submissions. He happened to catch the fact they hadn't checked out his submission at all more so in his own interest of knowing what was happening on their end than being out to get Image. Going ad hominem and saying he would seem like a pain in the ass to work with just because he holds the company to its own guidelines suggests to me avoiding an issue at hand. Image should own up to not being able to meet the current demands and not living by the creed that the submitters are its mercy.

[Stevens]

Very well stated.

Image absolutely is the place 99% of the would be creators want to be. Dark Horse and Top Cow pays page rates, but it's a secret what those rates are. Any other company that is willing to take on submissions is not going to pay you a damn thing. I'vebeen offered deals by well over a dozen companies now and the artists I have worked with have rejected all but a few. Unfortunately, sh!t happened to derail that stuff, including the kerplonk of one major company, as mentioned before.

Diamond's new minimum policies are certainly going to hurt things and force another market correction.

Half the independent companies out there really need to just go under because the market is not big enough to support all of the available titles. The independent market cannot live a long healthy life when good books struggle to sell 3,000 floppies a month at best. Those numbers need to be doubled.

But I could go on forever, so I won't. :)

[suttercain]

I'll also agree professionalism runs both ways. Image made their guidelines and are capable of changing them. Suttercain is just holding the company and himself to Image's rules on submissions.

You seem very difficult to work with :wink:

Joking aside. I owe you a beer!

[HotDawgJohnny]

I'm under the impression that when it comes to getting published, the publisher expects the whole deal right there and then. Right? Kinds like a band, you can't go to a label and only show up as the vocalist. Maybe if you went to image with a few demo pages and full story to pitch you'd have a shot.
See I always thought it would be cool to work with Chaos Comics, and we all know where they went. Working with Image would be pretty cool though, but like some said not for Spawn, I bet McFarlene would have an office with heads on stakes.