BFTC #2 Spoilers...

[HopeLantern]

Hey all... just found out I can't get to the LCBS until Sat... anyone read it yet?

[Abeja]

There are other ways to read it without going to ur LCS. Im about to read it.

[Red Lotus]

I found this scan from it.



50639

[stillanerd]

Here's a rundown of what happens in this issue:

*Penguin and Two-Face are at odds thanks to the schemes of Black Mask to pit them against each other. He then frames Two-Face by having Firefly and Jane Doe infiltrate police headquarters to blow it up.

*The Gun-Totting Batman is revealed to be...Jason Todd (yeah, real shock there. Not to mention "great" detective work on the part of Dick and Tim. :rolleyes: ). Anyways, Nightwing and Jason fight, but Jason escapes after shooting Damien (Hooray! Wait, Jason shot a ten-year old?!)

*Back at the batcave, Nightwing broods over his failures since Bruce "died" and decides it's maybe time to take up the mantle of the Batman (like we didn't know he wasn't going to do this).

*Tim (still dressed as Batman himself) finds Jason's "Batcave" which was created from way back during the earthquake from the "Cataclysm" storyline and nearly gets blown up by a landmine laced booby-trap but is saved by Catwoman. After she tells Tim that she knows it's him, Jason shows up, and he and Tim fight. Believe it or not, Tim tries to beat Jason with a crowbar (you know, just like the Joker did when he killed him? Ah, way to "subtly" pay homage to continuity) but Jason gets the upper hand and stabs Tim in the chest with a batarang. Jason then says there's "just one more to go," as apparently, his motive is to take out the other heirs to Bruce Wayne's legacy so he'll be the one and only Batman. (Wait, wasn't it Tim who helped let Jason out in the first place? Way to go there, Boy Blunder).

[hurk]

I'm not sure if this has been pitched or not, so sorry if I'm poaching someone's theory but...

Is Jason the new Black Mask?

Jason has used the gangs to his advantage before; Black Mask is trying to use Two Face and Penguin to take each other down.

We've yet to see anything happening at the same time to indisputably separate them. Both have glowing red eyes. Black Mask just had the GCPD blown up for some reason... yet he let Jim live?

We do get a scene where Jason is killing of Black Mask henchmen, but maybe it's just a misdirection on his part? Plus, if you'll notice, Jason says "Take these men for example. They work for the Black Mask. And how do I know that? Let's just say a little birdie told me". Could be one of his torture victims, or... could be Jason himself.

Jason seems pretty bonkers at this point anyway, so I wouldn't put it past him.

Thoughts?

[F1uke]

Yeah, just finished it. It was decent I thought. Spoilers Below:

It starts with individual scenes with Two-face and The Penguin, both going to attack each other, because they don't know the attacks are from the Black Mask. Dick and Damian are fighting the imposter Batman, and Dick tells him he knows that it is Jason. Black Canary and Huntress show up, and Jason runs, but shoots Damian before. It cuts to the Black Master's HQ, where he is going to have Jane Doe and Firefly execute Step Two in order to have Gotham lie in fiery ruins by dawn. Meanwhile, Jason stops a meeting of Black Mask thugs with a priest, and kills two of them while torturing the last for information on where Black Mask is.

Then it cuts to Tim, who discovers that Jason had built is own Batcave in the subway system. Tim sets off a trap, and it blows up, and Catwoman saves him. Cut to the real Batcave, with Damian with oxygen tubes. Dick talks to Alfred about how he failed replacing Batman before, and also let down Bruce, because he let Damian get injured. Alfred says that Dick is only one man, and Dick responds by saying that "And so was Bruce. So was Batman..." Alfred says to Dick that there is none other than Richard Grayson should represent the ideals of what Batman stands for. Gordon is fighting with the new DA, who won't go after Penguin without evidence, and Jane Doe busts in with a guards face on, and shots the DA in the neck. Jane Doe says to Gordon that "Two-Face really likes you." It then shows Black Mask with his arms out over Gotham while it burns.

Dick takes off his mask and goes to the Batman display cases, and finds a note from Tim where the missing suit is, that says "Gone Hunting". Catwoman and Tim talk for a minute, before Jason shows up. Jason and Tim fight, and Jason is kicking his ass for a couple of pages. Tim grabs a crowbar and starts beating Jason with it (sort of like when The Joker hits him with one in Death in the Family), but Jason starts laughing. Tim asks why he is laughing, and he looks down and sees a Batarang sticking out of his chest. Tim falls to the ground, and Jason walks away saying "Just one more to go."

[CMBMOOL]

Wow, here are some of my thoughts...


Way to "get rid of the competition there" Jason. :tongue:

Also how did Dick fail as Batman the first time since this issue brougt it up ?

Plus, I don't care if he's 10 years old, I'm glad Jason shot Damien as someone bound to do it someday. :redface:

[RunningWithJuanPablo]

Action packed! I can't wait to see the rest unfold. I was going to ask if Black Mask wore a mask, but a quick trip to Wikipedia showed me that it was confirmed that this Black Mask is not the original. Sorry for lagging behind, but that really makes this story that much more interesting for me. Also, we really don't know who the killer in the batsuit is, they are just assuming, which I also like. However, I'm probably wrong here, due to the thoughts he gave in the book.This book was an entertaining addition to my lackluster Wednesday.

[bongoes]

I'm not sure if this has been pitched or not, so sorry if I'm poaching someone's theory but...

Is Jason the new Black Mask?

Jason has used the gangs to his advantage before; Black Mask is trying to use Two Face and Penguin to take each other down.

We've yet to see anything happening at the same time to indisputably separate them. Both have glowing red eyes. Black Mask just had the GCPD blown up for some reason... yet he let Jim live?

We do get a scene where Jason is killing of Black Mask henchmen, but maybe it's just a misdirection on his part? Plus, if you'll notice, Jason says "Take these men for example. They work for the Black Mask. And how do I know that? Let's just say a little birdie told me". Could be one of his torture victims, or... could be Jason himself.

Jason seems pretty bonkers at this point anyway, so I wouldn't put it past him.

Thoughts?

I could see that. It would be cool if Jason continued as Black Mask after this.

[Buried Alien]

Also how did Dick fail as Batman the first time since this issue brougt it up ?
[/spoil]

Fifteen years ago (real time, not continuity), Dick took over as Batman temporarily in the aftermath of KNIGHTFALL. That story was called PRODIGAL. Dick actually did a pretty good job as Batman and Bruce was quite pleased with Dick's work, but Dick never thought he lived up to the role.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Lemurion]

I liked it - loved how the last few pages picked up the pace.

I thought the issue's biggest weakness was that it was so obviously a set-up issue preparing for next issue's concluding battle.

[CMBMOOL]

Fifteen years ago (real time, not continuity), Dick took over as Batman temporarily in the aftermath of KNIGHTFALL. That story was called PRODIGAL. Dick actually did a pretty good job as Batman and Bruce was quite pleased with Dick's work, but Dick never thought he lived up to the role.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Such self-confidence comes from the first adopted son of the Batman. :frown:

[F1uke]

I'm not sure if this has been pitched or not, so sorry if I'm poaching someone's theory but...

Is Jason the new Black Mask?

Jason has used the gangs to his advantage before; Black Mask is trying to use Two Face and Penguin to take each other down.

We've yet to see anything happening at the same time to indisputably separate them. Both have glowing red eyes. Black Mask just had the GCPD blown up for some reason... yet he let Jim live?

We do get a scene where Jason is killing of Black Mask henchmen, but maybe it's just a misdirection on his part? Plus, if you'll notice, Jason says "Take these men for example. They work for the Black Mask. And how do I know that? Let's just say a little birdie told me". Could be one of his torture victims, or... could be Jason himself.

Jason seems pretty bonkers at this point anyway, so I wouldn't put it past him.

Thoughts?

Yeah, this seems very possible.

I was sort of hoping that Black Mask was Jean-Paul Valley, myself.

[Retro315]

Wow, here are some of my thoughts...


Way to "get rid of the competition there" Jason. :tongue:

Also how did Dick fail as Batman the first time since this issue brougt it up ?

Plus, I don't care if he's 10 years old, I'm glad Jason shot Damien as someone bound to do it someday. :redface:

Dick became Batman for a spell in Batman: Prodigal. It was just after KnightsEnd, and even though Bruce had reclaimed the mantle from Az-Bats, he wasn't quite ready to go tearing it up again (still had some back injury recovery to do) and so Dick became Batman. However, he didn't like being Batman, felt he couldn't live up to Bruce, and now in retrospect, probably just felt like a stand-in waiting for Bruce to come back. Now that it's "more likely" Bruce won't be back (ha!) it's literally fallen on him.

The Jason Todd as Black Mask thing is a clever thought. Personally, I was thinking the new District Attorney, Hampton. He just got "wasted" by Jane Doe, sure ... but Gordon had kevlar on and Jane left a level of "could've killed you", and also the whole thing feels a bit like misdirection. More importantly ... the D.A., Hampton, is wearing the same kind of ridiculously snazzy suit that Black Mask has been wearing, and a trenchcoat as well.

Jason's been very, very busy. I like Dick's impetus for finally having the mantle thrust on him - by Alfred, no less. It fits well with the last few months of Last Rites as well, since he's been running around like a maniac trying to keep some semblance of Bruce's legacy running, and several villains have already taken it upon themselves to move their rivalry with Bruce to being a rivalry with Dick.

Other than that ... actually a little surprised by the ending. Not that Jason beat Tim, just that they left it so brutal.

SPOILERS:
Still, as boned as he looks, if Damian can survive a shot to the chest, Tim can hardly be called dead by a razor batarang in the diaphragm. But he might be a bit on the injured side for a while after this ...

Other than that? Great art again.

[Lemurion]

Don't forget - Catwoman is in the same location as Tim.

[TheEvilGeniuz]

i really liked this issue!

[Retro315]

Don't forget - Catwoman is in the same location as Tim.

True ... so even if Tim's heart has been punctured ... somebody who is a recent expert in heart-related removal can contact her heart surgeons with ease and everything'll be clouds and unicorns!!

Hahahaha. Right ... at any rate, yeah, Tim can get medical attention faster than if he'd just been left to die in a subway Batcave alone ...

[HopeLantern]

Here's a rundown of what happens in this issue:



Thanks! It was killing me that I can't pick this up until later... very predictable, but still nice non the less. It's good to learn Jason's true motives...

I feel a little naive for not knowing that Jason would take things that far. There's absolutely no redemption of the character from here on out, that's for sure.

[Lemurion]

True ... so even if Tim's heart has been punctured ... somebody who is a recent expert in heart-related removal can contact her heart surgeons with ease and everything'll be clouds and unicorns!!

Hahahaha. Right ... at any rate, yeah, Tim can get medical attention faster than if he'd just been left to die in a subway Batcave alone ...

It doesn't have to be reality - just comics reality.

[strong guy79]

Tim better make it. And I really want Jason to just go away.

[Seraku]

I liked this issue a hell of a lot more than he last :biggrin:

[Batman Examiner]

Tim won't die...if it he does that's the point of no return for Jason's character.

[Seraku]

I liked how they actually picked up plot points from the Gordon tie-in instead of just ignoring it

[Lemurion]

I liked how they actually picked up plot points from the Gordon tie-in instead of just ignoring it

I liked that too - especially since the Gordon one was the best tie-in I've read so far.

[Sizzle]

I would not expect Tim to beat Jason, but to let him get the drop like this seems a bit forced.

I'm sure he'll live, hard ot believe you can stab into body armor.

[Lemurion]

I would not expect Tim to beat Jason, but to let him get the drop like this seems a bit forced.

I'm sure he'll live, hard ot believe you can stab into body armor.

I'm sure he'll live too - but traditionally that costume really only had armor under the symbol. The whole idea of the yellow plate (at least since DKR) was to provide an armored target.

[James Conniff]

Nothing unexpected, but some solid use of the three Batboys.

[HaroldAllnut]

Tim better make it. And I really want Jason to just go away.

Tim will live. Haven't you seen the cover of Red Robin #2? :wink:

[Seraku]

I'm really hyped for the next issue.

Hopefully Dick's defeat of Jason will reach the level of Batman's curbstomp of Vigilante :evilsmile:

[Mac]

Has Alfred always been this ridiculously interesting, with such snazzy pep talks?
It seems like after Dark Knight, Alfred's giving some sort of profound speech to Batman/Nightwing in each arc. Not that that's a bad thing...I really liked it.

Uhh....Okay, maybe anatomy's failed me all these years, but it looked like Tim was stabbed much lower than where his heart would be.
The crowbar beating was pretty good.

"You burried Batman, Dick. And I dug him out."
"I wondered whatever happened to the caped crusader."
"No one can be him. But someone can represent what he stood for. The ideals that made Batman -- Justice, consequences and ironclad resolve to protect. And there is none other that has the wherewithal to uphold those ideals than you, Richard Grayson."

[Global Honored]

Catwoman really has a thing for that costume. What happened to her while Tim was taking his beating? Gee...so much thanks for the backup there Selina! I thought Jason's Batcave-slash-torture chamber was a nice touch. So now how does he convince Timmy to join him or vice versa?

[Alex Smith]

Ya, Catwoman seriously dropped the ball there, haha. I suppose she may have been KOed or something, but surely she's taken harder hits than that.

Anyway, I thought the issue was a pretty good one. I didn't read Grant's Batman run, but I'm not having anywhere near as difficult a time following this as I was when I tired to give RIP a go, so I'm pleased.

[Lemurion]

I thought she was either un or semi-conscious while the fight was on. Jason hit her pretty hard.

[F1uke]

I thought she was either un or semi-conscious while the fight was on. Jason hit her pretty hard.

Yeah, she got pistol whipped in the back of the head, and is shown laying down in the panel where Tim says "Well...there goes diplomacy"

[wolvie616]

I found this scan from it.



50639

where can i find this?

[F1uke]

where can i find this?

On the last page.

[Choppa]

Dick became Batman for a spell in Batman: Prodigal. It was just after KnightsEnd, and even though Bruce had reclaimed the mantle from Az-Bats, he wasn't quite ready to go tearing it up again (still had some back injury recovery to do) and so Dick became Batman.

Nope, Bruce was already healed when he let Dick take over for him. It was "revealed" later that he was building satellite batcaves in his absence that he used during NML.

[Retro315]

Nope, Bruce was already healed when he let Dick take over for him. It was "revealed" later that he was building satellite batcaves in his absence that he used during NML.

Good to know. You have to wonder when the guy had time to build Auxiliary Batcaves.

[another_version]

As much as I hate to say it, I wan Tim to stay dead. No bringing him back for the second time or whatever.

[dreyga2000]

As much as I hate to say it, I wan Tim to stay dead. No bringing him back for the second time or whatever.

Tim never died...:confused:

[frostedone]

The cover lied as others have said. No Cass, Spoiler, Squire, or some others.

The "gun Batman" is Jason. He made his own batcave out of some ruins of the earthquake in No Man's Land.

He shoots Damian in the chest. Dick tells Huntress and Black Canary to NOT go after him, because he wants revenge. That was the stupidest part.

Alfred tells Dick that he is only one man, and Dick says he is not as good as Bruce. Alfred assures him that he is not a copy of Bruce/Batman, but he is still capable of of representing his ideals and stuff. Dick says that he tried being Batman n "Prodigal Son" and that he failed. Alfred then said that Dick is the most cut out for it.

He also said that Bruce caused MORE trouble for Gotham when he became Batman.

Black Mask sets up more crimes as the gang leader. He recruits Jane Doe and Firefly.

The Penguin and Two-Face are after each other. They both lead a gang and are not aware of Black Mask's return.

Gordon gets a warning from Two-Face's goon, and the newest District Attorney of Gotham gets killed.

Jason and Tim fight in Jason's batcave and he throws a batarang into Tim's chest. It is very deep and Tim looks almost dead.


I would give is a B-.

[F1uke]

The cover lied as others have said. No Cass, Spoiler, Squire, or some others.


I don't think the cover was adverting who was in the issue...it was just the whole picture of Gotham and those Batman has effected. The first one didn't have Wildcat or Batwoman(besides the one shot of them each punching one person).

[dreyga2000]

Has Alfred always been this ridiculously interesting, with such snazzy pep talks?



Yes, he's been like that for years...




Man, I was really liking Tim dressed as the Neal Adams Batman... I was against it before but I would love to see him be Bats for a while... sigh....

[Samy]

I can't help but think that Gun-Bat should be somebody other than Jason, the way the story is being told. Everybody seems to be thinking in-comic that it's Jason, yet it's not being confirmed. That's like dangling a mystery with an obvious solution for two months, and then revealing it's just that obvious solution. A climactic reveal when Gun-Bat pulls his mask off in #3 just doesn't work if it *is* Jason. This is a red herring storytelling tactic.

But maybe it's just Daniel's greenness as a writer showing.

[another_version]

Tim never died...:confused:

Okay.....
So maybe he didn't "die" yet, but we can assume that he is severely wounded.
I think he's dead because look at the length of the Batarang in the previous cells, there isn't too much of it sticking out of his chest, from the looks of it, it went pretty deep. Look at the last page, from there we see that half of the Batarang is roughly the length of his head, minus the cowl, so that gives roughly about 8-10 inches of steel in your chest. Even though he's in a comic book, he should still die from it regardless.

[Samy]

Never assume. You know what they say about assume.

[Damademan3]

I really enjoyed two compared to one. Two actually makes me eager for the third book. Dick picking up a uniform was no surprise but the ending was for me at least with tim getting hurt. I don't know how I feel about Jason yet. Seeing he was robin before, did he just buck the system bruce followed? Or was there something else that made Jason all let's really hurt them? It was a good read and I was happy the one shot was tied in a little with the talk of freeze.

[Samy]

Do any of the clues in Gun-Bat's monologue this issue rule out his being Deathwing?

[pariah-1972]

Great Issue but i'm dying to know who this Jane Doe chick is.

I'm sure Catwoman will wake up and save Tim.

[Samuraixsithlord]

We don'tknow that Gun Batman is Jason. Nightwing assumes it's Jason and calls him jason, but i don't think it's really him.

I think it's Two-face who has another split personality.

still it was nice of him to shoot Damian:biggrin:

[pariah-1972]

We don'tknow that Gun Batman is Jason. Nightwing assumes it's Jason and calls him jason, but i don't think it's really him.

I think it's Two-face who has another split personality.

still it was nice of him to shoot Damian:biggrin:He didn't say he wasn't Jason so it figures it probably is him.

[Lemurion]

We don't "know" Gatman is Jason - but the narration very strongly implies it. Yes we lose a dramatic reveal if the mask comes off and shows Jason, but if it's someone else that undermines both Tim and Dick as detectives.

There are also some structural points to the story that would not work as well if Gatman isn't Jason: Why put two of the three Robins on the covers? Why have Tim narrate one issue if the other narrators are not the other two Robins?

We can be pretty sure it's not Two-Face though - apart from the gaping plot holes that would make - we see both sides of his lower jaw when Tim hits him with the crowbar.

Jason makes sense and nobody else does.

[Choppa]

Was the crowbar thing just an editorial homage or was it supposed to be intentional on Tim's part? Because I can't imagine how Tim or anyone else for that matter could possibly know that the Joker used a crowbar.

Also, I think it's pointless to have all of these other characters in it. It's called Battle for the Cowl, and if those other people aren't fighting for it, just leave them out. I mean what did Huntress and Canary really add to this story, other than giving Dick the chance to say "I'll deal with [gunbat]"

[ProdSlash]

They whacked Tim.

That's it. I'm done.

[The Lucky One]

I feel a little naive for not knowing that Jason would take things that far. There's absolutely no redemption of the character from here on out, that's for sure.

You know, I thought the same thing after Iron Man masterminded a terrorist attack on U.S. soil, but Marvel seems to be trying nonetheless. :rolleyes:

Was the crowbar thing just an editorial homage or was it supposed to be intentional on Tim's part? Because I can't imagine how Tim or anyone else for that matter could possibly know that the Joker used a crowbar.

I think it was editorial homage, the art makes it seem like Tim is just grabbing whatever's at hand and using it. The real question is why Jason would even keep crowbars around after what happened to him. But I guess people who get shot still keep guns around afterward too. :wink:

That said, I think Bruce and Tim know about the crowbar. Aside from the fact that forensics could give them a pretty good idea of the type of instrument used, the Joker's certainly never been shy about bragging about it.

-D

[Choppa]

I think it was editorial homage, the art makes it seem like Tim is just grabbing whatever's at hand and using it. The real question is why Jason would even keep crowbars around after what happened to him. But I guess people who get shot still keep guns around afterward too. :wink:

That said, I think Bruce and Tim know about the crowbar. Aside from the fact that forensics could give them a pretty good idea of the type of instrument used, the Joker's certainly never been shy about bragging about it.

-D

I was thinking the same thing. It seems very convenient that it was right there too. Also, when did the Joker brag about that? I know he talked about killing him, but not specifically using a crowbar.

[IvCNuB4]

We don't "know" Gatman is Jason - but the narration very strongly implies it. Yes we lose a dramatic reveal if the mask comes off and shows Jason, but if it's someone else that undermines both Tim and Dick as detectives.

There are also some structural points to the story that would not work as well if Gatman isn't Jason: Why put two of the three Robins on the covers? Why have Tim narrate one issue if the other narrators are not the other two Robins?

We can be pretty sure it's not Two-Face though - apart from the gaping plot holes that would make - we see both sides of his lower jaw when Tim hits him with the crowbar.

Jason makes sense and nobody else does.

Yet gun-toting Batman never once admits to being Jason. Even when they call him by name. On other Boards, they're saying his inner monologue and dialogue is more typical of Jean-Paul than Jason.

Go back and read the issue with that in mind. You may pickup some clues you didn't notice before ....

[The Lucky One]

I was thinking the same thing. It seems very convenient that it was right there too. Also, when did the Joker brag about that? I know he talked about killing him, but not specifically using a crowbar.

It's not something I'm positive about, I'll say that. I seem to recall times where the Joker has specifically mentioned using a crowbar, but I can't swear to it. Maybe someone else can help out?

-D

[Red Lotus]

We don'tknow that Gun Batman is Jason. Nightwing assumes it's Jason and calls him jason, but i don't think it's really him.

I think it's Two-face who has another split personality.

still it was nice of him to shoot Damian:biggrin:

I thought DC said it was Jason.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

I thought DC said it was Jason.

They have, on multiple occasions, in an article at IGN where they interview the Bat editorial Office, and in the solicitation text for issue 3 of Battle for the Cowl. It is Jason, there is no question of it.

[Seraku]

I'm sure Catwoman will wake up and save Tim.Yeah, I think that's the only reason Daniel put her in the cave to begin with.

The cover lied as others have said. No Cass, Spoiler, Squire, or some others.the cover was simply a poster split in 3. the variants seem more tied to the story

We don'tknow that Gun Batman is Jason. hahahaha good joke

I think it's Two-face who has another split personality.Tim knocks his face plate off and we see a non scarred chin

[HopeLantern]

I seem to recall there being quite a bit of rumors about Tim getting seriously injured in issue #2, and there it was. It doesn't look like Jason got him in the heart (at least not how Daniels drew it), but he no doubt will be out of commission for a while. Sad, too. The idea of Tim as Batman has grown on me quite a bit since the last issue of Robin. His fighting skills are nowhere near the level of Dick, but his detective skills are quite on point. I have to admit though, I was somewhat surprised about the fight. I always thought Tim was a much better fighter than Jason... I think they fought in a recent issue of Robin, and I thought Tim was stating how Jason had only power, but no finesse. Poor Tim... here's hoping for a speedy rescue.

Tony, if you're lurking, that was quite a Great issue! On the edge of my seat for issue 3, and how that leads into a post BFTC Gotham!

[Buried Alien]

An irony in Tim's injury is that his father died of a similar wound.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Karl O'Neill]

wow.

Loved this issue, more than the first one, and that is saying a lot as I really really dug the first issue.

Tony daniel's art gets better each issue, did you see those panels with the two batmen duking it out? One for the ages.

I smell a twist in the reveal of the gun toting batman, I bet the solicitations for issue 3 are misdirection.

It is not Jason todd.

jane doe and firefly and zassz were all awesomely protrayed.

[Karl O'Neill]

They whacked Tim.

That's it. I'm done.

Serialized fiction dude, There is a third and final chaper to Battle for the cowl.

[Abeja]

An irony in Tim's injury is that his father died of a similar wound.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

It was a razor boomerang or something from Captain Boomerang in Identity Crisis?

I really liked the look of Tim as Batman. I wouldnt be surprised if Dick dressed as Batman and looked darker. Have two Batmans running around to deal with the Black Mask.

[Choppa]

I seem to recall there being quite a bit of rumors about Tim getting seriously injured in issue #2, and there it was. It doesn't look like Jason got him in the heart (at least not how Daniels drew it), but he no doubt will be out of commission for a while. Sad, too. The idea of Tim as Batman has grown on me quite a bit since the last issue of Robin. His fighting skills are nowhere near the level of Dick, but his detective skills are quite on point. I have to admit though, I was somewhat surprised about the fight. I always thought Tim was a much better fighter than Jason... I think they fought in a recent issue of Robin, and I thought Tim was stating how Jason had only power, but no finesse. Poor Tim... here's hoping for a speedy rescue.

Tony, if you're lurking, that was quite a Great issue! On the edge of my seat for issue 3, and how that leads into a post BFTC Gotham!

When Jason first returned he confronted Tim at the Titans Tower and cleaned his clock.

[Buried Alien]

I really liked the look of Tim as Batman. I wouldnt be surprised if Dick dressed as Batman and looked darker. Have two Batmans running around to deal with the Black Mask.

It's telling that of all the variations of the Batman costume available, Tim chose the blue and grey, yellow-oval model. Why this model? Remember: this was the version of the costume that Batman wore when Tim Drake first met Batman, and when Tim first started his career as Robin. I think the statement that Tim made in choosing that costume is that the Batman he wants to be is the Batman he remembers from his childhood.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Karl O'Neill]

I remember that issue, johns wrote it, it was pretty wild, jason is one tough bastard

[Buried Alien]

When Jason first returned he confronted Tim at the Titans Tower and cleaned his clock.

Yes. Not only does Jason have a size/height advantage over Tim, but Jason has gotten additional training since his return from the dead. Jason back in his Robin days likely would be beaten in combat by Tim Drake's Robin, but the current Jason is probably at the same level as Nightwing as a combatant, and fights a hell of a lot dirtier to boot.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[ProdSlash]

Serialized fiction dude, There is a third and final chaper to Battle for the cowl.

You have a point, but it doesn't take away from the fact that they are mistreating the character badly, and I don't like it.

For some reason, very few authors seem to understand how capable Drake is. He might have lost to Jason Todd in the pages of the Titans, but he did fight him to a near standstill first.

In this series, he strikes me far too much as The Sacrificial Lamb, to properly motivate Dick.

[ProdSlash]

I seem to recall there being quite a bit of rumors about Tim getting seriously injured in issue #2, and there it was. It doesn't look like Jason got him in the heart (at least not how Daniels drew it), but he no doubt will be out of commission for a while. Sad, too. The idea of Tim as Batman has grown on me quite a bit since the last issue of Robin. His fighting skills are nowhere near the level of Dick, but his detective skills are quite on point. I have to admit though, I was somewhat surprised about the fight. I always thought Tim was a much better fighter than Jason... I think they fought in a recent issue of Robin, and I thought Tim was stating how Jason had only power, but no finesse. Poor Tim... here's hoping for a speedy rescue.

Tony, if you're lurking, that was quite a Great issue! On the edge of my seat for issue 3, and how that leads into a post BFTC Gotham!

He should be at least as capable as Jason Todd, if not more.

Instead, they are treating him like a putz, and making him a clear sacrifice. It's making me angry.

[The Lucky One]

When Jason first returned he confronted Tim at the Titans Tower and cleaned his clock.

I think it's telling that in both the TT fight and now this one, Jason arguably had to cheat to beat Tim, and still only barely. In a straight fight like the one in Robin, Tim wins.

-D

[Karl O'Neill]

Tim will get his moment.

[The Lucky One]

It's telling that of all the variations of the Batman costume available, Tim chose the blue and grey, yellow-oval model. Why this model? Remember: this was the version of the costume that Batman wore when Tim Drake first met Batman, and when Tim first started his career as Robin. I think the statement that Tim made in choosing that costume is that the Batman he wants to be is the Batman he remembers from his childhood.

I thought that too, and to a certain extent Dick's doing the same thing if that "Battle For The Cowl" poster art is to be believed- large bat logo with no oval, just like when Dick first became Robin.

-D

[marvelprince]

I think it's telling that in both the TT fight and now this one, Jason arguably had to cheat to beat Tim, and still only barely. In a straight fight like the one in Robin, Tim wins.

-D


Cheat? Jason was kicking his ass till Tim got a hold of the crowbar and got a few shots in.

I like the way it was broken down before. Dick is the acrobat, Jason's the brawler and Tim's the detective. Each with their own strengths and weakness. Despite Tim's brains, in a fight like that Jason should win.

[frostedone]

Great Issue but i'm dying to know who this Jane Doe chick is.

I'm sure Catwoman will wake up and save Tim.

Jane Doe was a character from the mid 2000's "Arkham Asylum: Living Hell" mini series.

She killed people then worse their skin and pretended to be them for a few months. She didn't have an identity of her own or something. Also I noticed the Great White Shark was in there too.

[Will44]

Cheat? Jason was kicking his ass till Tim got a hold of the crowbar and got a few shots in.


I thought it was a pretty evenly matched fight.

Jason is older, and probably weighs a lot more and is stronger than Tim. He also knew the terrain and played a number of tricks on Tim. It was really smart of Tim to turn to a weapon to even out the fight.

But maybe Jason just took the beating to get close enough to stick Tim with the knife?

[Karl O'Neill]

Dan slott created jane doe in the that awesome mini series.

[marvelprince]

I thought it was a pretty evenly matched fight.

Jason is older, and probably weighs a lot more and is stronger than Tim. He also knew the terrain and played a number of tricks on Tim. It was really smart of Tim to turn to a weapon to even out the fight.

But maybe Jason just took the beating to get close enough to stick Tim with the knife?

I do agree with you, not trying to knock Tim by any means. I just think that any comments about Tim being about to easily take Jason are ridiculous.

[The Lucky One]

Cheat? Jason was kicking his ass till Tim got a hold of the crowbar and got a few shots in.

Right... because he hid behind curtains and slashed Tim like a punk. Jason's advantage is that he's not too proud to cheat. Tim and Dick (usually) are.

-D

[Christopher Cross Is God]

I think it's telling that in both the TT fight and now this one, Jason arguably had to cheat to beat Tim, and still only barely. In a straight fight like the one in Robin, Tim wins.

-D

Nah, the Robin issue was merely Nicieza playing favorites for the title character.

[Lemurion]

Each of the Robins has different strengths and weaknesses. Tim is almost undoubtedly the smartest of the three, just as Dick is probably the best all-around natural athlete. Jason is probably the best natural one on one fighter.

This kind of thing reminds me of the WWII buffs who argue that Rommel was a much better general than Montgomery, and that he would have always beaten Montgomery if they had fought one of those fluid maneuver battles that were his forte. The truth is, Rommel was better at that kind of battle and Montgomery knew it: that's why they never fought on Rommel's terms. Montgomery always arranged things that they were fighting to his strengths and Rommel's weaknesses.

There are things Tim's better at - but in general Jason will beat him more often than not because he's better at controlling the fight.

[Slumber Hulk]

Liked it!

I think Tim did the right thing by taking the Cowl if Dick wasn't going to.

Clearly this is a set up for the final Dick vs. Jason finale.

I really like the three distinct Robins' strengths and weaknesses at play here.

[titanfan]

He shoots Damian in the chest. Dick tells Huntress and Black Canary to NOT go after him, because he wants revenge. That was the stupidest part.

This was HORRIBLE. Either have Huntress and BC take Damien to get some help and go after the villain, or have them at take out Jason. Black Canary is arguably a better fighter than all 3 Robins--and could have ended the series here. Dick is supposed to be the team player here--if Tim dies it's on his hands.

First the stupidity by Oracle last issue, and now this by Dick. No wonder Batman wants to do everything himself.

[Will44]

I do agree with you, not trying to knock Tim by any means. I just think that any comments about Tim being about to easily take Jason are ridiculous.

Agreed. Tim was NOT about to easily win that fight. He was getting his butt handed to him. But like I said, for a number of good reasons.

In a more fair fight, out in the open, I think Jason still wins, but Tim should be able to hold his own.

[Seraku]

Jane Doe was a character from the mid 2000's "Arkham Asylum: Living Hell" mini series.

She killed people then worse their skin and pretended to be them for a few months. She didn't have an identity of her own or something. Also I noticed the Great White Shark was in there too.Jane Doe created Great White Shark

she's the one who set up the circumstances that led to his insanity and disfigurement

[ProdSlash]

Tim will get his moment.

Kinda hard if they kill him.

[HopeLantern]

When Jason first returned he confronted Tim at the Titans Tower and cleaned his clock.

Clearly going to have to pick up that back issue then...

So then has Jason fought Dick before in a knock down, no hold barred match?
I seem to recall Todd being Nightwing at some point, but can't really remember the story behind it...

[4thHorseman]

Clearly going to have to pick up that back issue then...

So then has Jason fought Dick before in a knock down, no hold barred match?
I seem to recall Todd being Nightwing at some point, but can't really remember the story behind it...

Nobody wants to remember that story in Nightwing.

[Christopher Cross Is God]

This was HORRIBLE. Either have Huntress and BC take Damien to get some help and go after the villain, or have them at take out Jason. Black Canary is arguably a better fighter than all 3 Robins--and could have ended the series here. Dick is supposed to be the team player here--if Tim dies it's on his hands.

First the stupidity by Oracle last issue, and now this by Dick. No wonder Batman wants to do everything himself.


Sloppy writing more than anything else. It's too bad, since it was an OK issue, otherwise.


Clearly going to have to pick up that back issue then...

So then has Jason fought Dick before in a knock down, no hold barred match?
I seem to recall Todd being Nightwing at some point, but can't really remember the story behind it...

That first Tim vs Jason fight was in Teen Titans #29, which is definitely worth getting.

The Jason vs Dick fights aren't worth a look. They were in a horribly done Nightwing run I wish I never bothered reading, even though I got them from a 25-cent bin.

[numberONE]

I enjoyed the first issue, but this one was so much better. The Tim/Jason fight was epic. The big difference between this issue and the first, was there was this one had more surprises.

[T Hedge Coke]

Right... because he hid behind curtains and slashed Tim like a punk. Jason's advantage is that he's not too proud to cheat. Tim and Dick (usually) are.

I love that this is "cheating" for people. And not, oh, just, smart fighting.

How dare he not stand in the open and present himself as a target like an honorable man! (Maybe he should have let Tim give him one on the chin first, just to be sporting.)

[Lemurion]

Bruce was never too proud to cheat - yes there were things he refused to do - but within those boundaries he would do whatever it took.

[F1uke]

Nobody wants to remember that story in Nightwing.

Truth. The only thing I remember is this weird alien/monster/guy eating Jason and puking him out in a sac.

[colossus34]

Tim is extremely skilled but so much younger than Todd that he wil loss to him in a straight fight almost everytime... when he gets older I'd say he'd have a clear advantage over him because of his dedication and control but for now Todd is too much for Tim to handle.

As for Nightwing vs Todd... this has ALWAYS been a joke. Dick has always been the more natural athlete, easly the more gifted fighter, trained for years and years longer than Todd, is years more expeirienced and should never have any trouble handing Jason his butt anytime. Of course, he jobs to him to make him look better. This was even confirmed in that terrible Bruce Jones run where NW told Todd he was holding back everytime they faught ecuase he "felt bad for him"... pretty sad.

[Red Lotus]

They have, on multiple occasions, in an article at IGN where they interview the Bat editorial Office, and in the solicitation text for issue 3 of Battle for the Cowl. It is Jason, there is no question of it.

I didn't think so. I was wondering why people were saying no it couldn't be jason

It was a razor boomerang or something from Captain Boomerang in Identity Crisis?

I really liked the look of Tim as Batman. I wouldnt be surprised if Dick dressed as Batman and looked darker. Have two Batmans running around to deal with the Black Mask.

I cant say how much i hated Tim look as Batman. Jason pretty much said it all when he said Tim looks like he is about to go Trick or Treating.

[Abeja]

I didn't think so. I was wondering why people were saying no it couldn't be jason



I cant say how much i hated Tim look as Batman. Jason pretty much said it all when he said Tim looks like he is about to go Trick or Treating.

Yeah its probably hit or miss. I like it cause its an older design on a new Batman, and if its one of Bruces then it should be smaller. It makes him look taller, but he still needs some muscle. Dick probably will have a powerful, fearful,darker look as Batman. Jason of course has a murderous, shooting Batman.

[Trey]

It was OK......I liked the first issue better.

I think you guys like it better because I have been strictly a Batman reader and have never followed the other books at length. I don't have a big connection with Robin or Nightwing.

The art was pretty good. Great Two-face and Catwoman. I've said it before, Daniel draws excellent villains. I bet he loves to draw the freaks in RIP and the Jane Doe scene in this issue.

Huntress and Canary arrived and thats why Gunbat took off. That was the purpose of their appearance. We can assume they took care of Damien, as the scene jumps to Black Mask's HQ.

Guntbat is searching for Black Mask, so its obviously Jason and not Black Mask.

[Sean Whitmore]

Fair enough issue. I wasn't expecting much, and I got it, so I can't really complain.

So it's been revealed from sources other than the mini that the killer Batman is definitely Jason? If so, that's a weird way to deal with it in the story; have everyone accuse him of being Jason and him never confirming it. It's like they want to keep the mystery going after the heroes already figured it out in the second act.

And in response to a couple of posts here, why is it assumed that Tim would lose a fight against Jason? Unless my timeline is off, Tim's been fighting for years while Jason was cooling it six feet under.


SEAN

[Cayman]

And in response to a couple of posts here, why is it assumed that Tim would lose a fight against Jason? Unless my timeline is off, Tim's been fighting for years while Jason was cooling it six feet under.


SEAN

He's well-rested.

[Sean Whitmore]

He's well-rested.

Yeah, but the bed sores must be killing him.


SEAN

[Red Lotus]

Fair enough issue. I wasn't expecting much, and I got it, so I can't really complain.

So it's been revealed from sources other than the mini that the killer Batman is definitely Jason? If so, that's a weird way to deal with it in the story; have everyone accuse him of being Jason and him never confirming it. It's like they want to keep the mystery going after the heroes already figured it out in the second act.

And in response to a couple of posts here, why is it assumed that Tim would lose a fight against Jason? Unless my timeline is off, Tim's been fighting for years while Jason was cooling it six feet under.


SEAN


I think Todd has spent years training once he came back from the dead.

[Sean Whitmore]

I think Todd has spent years training once he came back from the dead.

I'm murky on my Todd history. Did he come back right around the time of "Hush", or did he actually come back years earlier and remain behind the scenes?


SEAN

[Buried Alien]

I'm murky on my Todd history. Did he come back right around the time of "Hush", or did he actually come back years earlier and remain behind the scenes?


SEAN

Superboy Prime's punch occured in the relative "present" (i.e. at around the time just before INFINITE CRISIS), but its effects upon the mainstream DCU timeline went all the way back to the Dawn of Time itself.

For Jason Todd, it meant that his rotting corpse was reanimated into a living body six months after the Joker killed him.

After digging himself out, Jason was anonymously at a Gotham City hospital for another several months. After he had recovered sufficiently to move, he left the hospital and wandered the Gotham streets as an amnesiac vagabond for at least a year before being discovered by a party that brought him into contact with the Al-Ghuls. Jason spent yet at least another year recovering under Talia Al-Ghul's care, but after his recovery stopped making progress (his body was healed, but his mind was still off), she threw him into a Lazarus Pit, which brought him back to 100%. By this time, at least a full two years (possibly three) had passed since Jason had died.

Now fully recovered, Jason spent time traveling the world finding some of Bruce's old teachers to upgrade his skills. That was at least another year. He then returned to Gotham to plot his return (around the time of HUSH).

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[The Lucky One]

I'm murky on my Todd history. Did he come back right around the time of "Hush", or did he actually come back years earlier and remain behind the scenes?

Yeah, that's the thing. People keep saying Jason would win because he's older, ignoring the fact that 1) Tim had better training. That's not to say Bruce isn't a good teacher, but he specifically sent Tim around the world to get training from different masters. Tim has more well-rounded training than Jason, and maybe even Dick; and 2) Jason was dead for years. If he came back, like, immediately after he died, that's one thing. But if he came back with Superboy Prime's retcon punch, that wasn't that long ago. If that's the case, Tim has been active as a crimefighter far longer than Jason.

-D

[Sean Whitmore]

Ah, thanks, BA. I thought Jason was relying solely on his Robin training.


SEAN

[HopeLantern]

As for Nightwing vs Todd... this has ALWAYS been a joke. Dick has always been the more natural athlete, easly the more gifted fighter, trained for years and years longer than Todd, is years more expeirienced and should never have any trouble handing Jason his butt anytime. Of course, he jobs to him to make him look better. This was even confirmed in that terrible Bruce Jones run where NW told Todd he was holding back everytime they fought because he "felt bad for him"... pretty sad.

Okay, so for once in BFTC #3, we should finally see Todd get what's coming to him...

[Buried Alien]

What's also worth considering is that Nightwing and Robin might be affected by some psychological restraints when fighting Jason. Although they consciously condemn the things Jason has done since his return, on some level, they still recognize Jason as their "brother." Dick always felt a sense of personal guilt for what happened to Jason. Dick cannot help believing that if he had been a better Robin or stayed as Batman's partner, Bruce never would have recruited Jason as Robin (which led to Jason's eventual demise). Tim, for his part, admired and respected Jason before the latter returned as a murderous psychopath. Tim's early career as Robin was haunted by the shadow of Jason's death: even as he donned the Robin costume for the first time, Tim must have been acutely aware of Jason's costume in that glass case, with the plaque "A Good Soldier" commemorating Jason's death in action while wearing that costume. As much as their conscious minds can't sanction what Jason has become, Dick and Tim can't fully come to grips with having to fight their middle brother.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[James Conniff]

What's also worth considering is that Nightwing and Robin might be affected by some psychological restraints when fighting Jason. Although they consciously condemn the things Jason has done since his return, on some level, they still recognize Jason as their "brother." Dick always felt a sense of personal guilt for what happened to Jason. Dick cannot help believing that if he had been a better Robin or stayed as Batman's partner, Bruce never would have recruited Jason as Robin (which led to Jason's eventual demise). Tim, for his part, admired and respected Jason before the latter returned as a murderous psychopath. Tim's early career as Robin was haunted by the shadow of Jason's death: even as he donned the Robin costume for the first time, Tim must have been acutely aware of Jason's costume in that glass case, with the plaque "A Good Soldier" commemorating Jason's death in action while wearing that costume. As much as their conscious minds can't sanction what Jason has become, Dick and Tim can't fully come to grips with having to fight their middle brother.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Well said, B.A..

[ANewHope]

I'm not so sure that's its Jason Todd behind the Batman/Punisher Cowl.

When Jason Todd and Tim Drake fought in Robin 177, Robin took him down with relative ease. Perhaps Jason wasn't given enough credit. But Tim released Jason from jail in issue 182. He did this because he believed that Batman would have given Todd one final chance to redeem himself.

So I'm surprised if it's actually Jason behind the Cowl. The obvious choice is that it's Jason, but are there other possibilities?

[Samy]

His fighting skills are nowhere near the level of Dick
I thought Tim once beat Lady Shiva or something? I remember him seeming to get some major props for his fighting skills around Brotherhood of the Monkey Fist?

[stillanerd]

Those bringing up the fighting skills with regards to Dick vs. Jason, or whoever "Gatman" really is, and Tim vs. Jason in this issue reminds me that each of the Robins were, more or less, an aspect of Batman. Granted, each of the Robins had different levels of athleticism, strength, and fighting capabilities, but considering that each of them were trained by Bruce "The training is nothing," to quote Ducard from Batman Begins. Rather, it's who they are personally, what they bring in addition to their fighting skills is what should be the focus.

Dick, as Alfred told him, essentially symbolizes Batman's ideals--"Justice, consequence, and ironclad resolve to protect." Given the entire scene in question, this pretty much Tony Daniel spelling out why Dick is going to be and should be Bruce's replacement--because Dick himself embodies those very ideals, even more so than Bruce because he had a sense of optimism about him that Bruce lacked (which of course, interestingly enough, makes the scene even more heavy handed and ridiculous since Dick was already living up to Batman's ideals as Nightwing all this time and didn't need to put on a Batsuit, but I digress).

Jason, if that's who "Gatman" is, symbolizes the what Bruce wanted to project to criminals--"A creature of the night, black and terrible," a vicious monster who turns fear against those who utilize fear. And he's got that aspect down to the point in which he's not afraid to kill others in order to get results.

Tim, definitely symbolizes the intelligence, strategic thinking, and detective skills Bruce has. Often times, readers overlook the fact that Batman is also a "detective" as well as a "Dark Knight," and it's being a detective which is an important quality for Batman to have. And this is something Tim has in spades.

Of course, the problem is that each of the Robins, Dick, Jason, and Tim have an excess of one of Batman's qualities--Sense of Justice, Usage of Fear, and Deductive reasoning--but are lacking in the other two. Dick, while intelligent, is not as good a detective as Bruce, and certainly isn't dark enough; Jason, for all practical purposes, is a thug because his sense of Justice is skewed and is more reactionary rather than analytical; and Tim has a bit of cynicism even though he upholds Batman's ideals of Justice, and certainly isn't intimidating enough in comparison to his mentor. So while each of them could be or imagine themselves to be a true successor to Batman, they will still be an incomplete Batman like Bruce. Because in order to truly be Batman, they have to embody ALL the qualities Bruce had, which, of course, they won't be able to do.

[Sean Whitmore]

I thought Tim once beat Lady Shiva or something?

Never in a straight-up, one-on-one.

That said, I think "nowehere near" Dick's level is a bit of hyperbole.


SEAN

[Red Lotus]

So I'm surprised if it's actually Jason behind the Cowl. The obvious choice is that it's Jason, but are there other possibilities?

I dont think there is.

http://comicsmedia.ign.com/comics/image/article/968/968443/inside-the-batman-editorial-mind-20090331050304650.jpg

I thought Tim once beat Lady Shiva or something? I remember him seeming to get some major props for his fighting skills around Brotherhood of the Monkey Fist?

Didn't he drug her and she still was able to hurt him before she passed out.

[T Hedge Coke]

I thought Tim once beat Lady Shiva or something?

Wait. Wuh?

Can Denny O'Neill come do a Lady Shiva hard reset now? She's gone from a very comlex and interesting nigh-unbeatable and super-dedicated character to... Prometheus and Robin are handing her her ass? Say it ain't so!

[Sean Whitmore]

Wait. Wuh?

Can Denny O'Neill come do a Lady Shiva hard reset now? She's gone from a very comlex and interesting nigh-unbeatable and super-dedicated character to... Prometheus and Robin are handing her her ass? Say it ain't so!

Well, she's still nigh-unbeatable and super-dedicated. As for interesting, she's as interesting as the whole "I must be the best" shtick allows her to be, I guess.

And Prometheus almost took out the entire JLA, so him getting the one-up on Shiva is hardly an embarassment.


SEAN

[dreyga2000]

In the at issue of Robin, Shiva challenged him to a fight he won because ealier that day he drugged her....

[F1uke]

I dont think there is.

http://comicsmedia.ign.com/comics/image/article/968/968443/inside-the-batman-editorial-mind-20090331050304650.jpg



Didn't he drug her and she still was able to hurt him before she passed out.

Yes, In the last issue of Robin, he poisons her chocolate, that makes her heart beat faster, so when it comes time to fight, she only gets one hit, breaking his ribs, before she passes out.

[Will J.]

There was an issue of Robin where this girl named Dava I think laced her lipstick with some kind of drug and kissed him, essentially enhancing his speed to the point where he beat Shiva to death before resuscitating her.

[Samy]

The obvious choice is that it's Jason, but are there other possibilities?
One could go over the narration/inner monologue of #2 and try to pick out clues.

* Came along after Dick Grayson (duh, so did everybody).
* Thought "lessons should be learned, examples made".
* Knows Bruce and Dick's identities
* Was brought under Bruce's wing at some point, thinks it was because Bruce wanted to prevent him becoming an enemy
* Never desired to be an enemy, only a replacement

Among other things.

Multiple times in the issue, he's accused of being Jason, yet he dodges the point, not answering. If he was Jason, why would he? Why would the revelation be delayed if it wasn't to pull a twist?

Other possibilities are Jean-Paul Valley and Deathwing (the Dick Grayson from Team Titans). Nobody really gives a crap about Deathwing, but Jean-Paul could make for a decent twist revelation.

Honestly, if they do reveal it's Jason after this dancing around the issue and avoiding the question, it'll be a letdown. On the other hand if they do make it somebody other than Jason, I think it will make this actually a pretty good mislead and a pretty good story.

[Sean Whitmore]

There was an issue of Robin where this girl named Dava I think laced her lipstick with some kind of drug and kissed him, essentially enhancing his speed to the point where he beat Shiva to death before resuscitating her.

Yeah, the super-speed beatdown was pretty funny.

I believe it also saved Connor Hawke's life later on, when Shiva was about to kill him and Robin intervened.


SEAN

[Sean Whitmore]

* Was brought under Bruce's wing at some point, thinks it was because Bruce wanted to prevent him becoming an enemy

That right there made me think of Jean Paul, since that's pretty much why Bruce took him in twice. (The second time being mostly symbolic)


Honestly, if they do reveal it's Jason after this dancing around the issue and avoiding the question, it'll be a letdown.

My thoughts exactly.


SEAN

[ANewHope]

I haven't read Azrael #1 "Deaths Dark Knight" yet, probably should. Does this comic add anything to the puzzle?

[The Lucky One]

I thought Tim once beat Lady Shiva or something? I remember him seeming to get some major props for his fighting skills around Brotherhood of the Monkey Fist?

He beat her (actually, killed her) once while using a drug that gave him low-level super-speed, and had to bring her back to life with CPR. Then in the last issue of Robin, he poisoned her chocolate ahead of time, giving him a win by default.

Tim certainly shouldn't be able to beat Lady Shiva unassisted, no question. But he's also had the most and best hand-to-hand training of any of the Robins for his age (Dick's more agile and faster, but at that point in his career as Robin, he didn't know as much fighting technique as Tim does now), and the height/reach thing is rapidly becoming a non-issue: post-OYL, Tim's about 17, so he really shouldn't be that much shorter than Dick or Jason... he'll gain muscle over the next few years, but not much more height.

I reread all 3 Tim/Jason fights tonight just to compare. In the first one at Titans Tower, Jason clearly had the size advantage. Each of them deflected the other's attacks for the first part of the fight, Tim bloodied Jason's nose but then got kicked into a statue. The turning point came when Jason stole Tim's bo staff and knocked him into the hall of statues. Even then Tim scored the next two hits, but then was blinded by a gas pellet, and Jason used his superior strength to knock him out with a throw/kick/punch combo. With his last word before passing out, Tim got the moral victory, but physical win to Jason.

Second fight: Tim's one year taller, one year stronger. Even so, his real strength is his mind, predicting Jason's moves. Narration had him remembering how hard Jason hits, so instead he snagged Jason's arm with a bat-line and dragged him down into an alleyway. Jason's wild gunshots set off an explosion nearby, giving Tim the opportunity to swing down and kick him in the face. Getting to his gun, Jason managed to shoot Tim, and if not for the reinforced cape, that would have been the end of the fight (and Tim's life). Intervention by the General distracted Jason, after which a gang member shot him in the knee, ending the fight. Outcome: Tim scored more hits, but ultimately inconclusive.

Third fight (assuming Gatman is Jason): Tim scored first hit for the third time running with a kick to Jason's face. Both hit each other a couple times during a freefall. Tim landed amidst some hanging sheets and Jason sliced him several times from behind with a batarang, then threw in a couple punches for good measure. Tim grabbed a crowbar and hit back three times (I guess Jason's attack from behind is balanced out by Tim using the crowbar), but Jason either somehow slid a batarang between his ribs, or (as I read it) Tim accidentally fell on it at some point. Either way, fight over, Jason wins.

It's pretty clear that Jason won the first fight by being bigger, Tim held his own and/or won the second (depending on your interpretation) by using his brain, and the third fight was even until the end. My personal feeling is that they were equally matched in fighting skill, but Tim forgot to use his brain and let Jason turn it into a street brawl... that, plus Jason's willingness to use more lethal tactics, cost Tim the fight.

-D

[Captain Jim]

I'm not sure if this has been pitched or not, so sorry if I'm poaching someone's theory but...

Is Jason the new Black Mask?

Jason has used the gangs to his advantage before; Black Mask is trying to use Two Face and Penguin to take each other down.

We've yet to see anything happening at the same time to indisputably separate them. Both have glowing red eyes. Black Mask just had the GCPD blown up for some reason... yet he let Jim live?

We do get a scene where Jason is killing of Black Mask henchmen, but maybe it's just a misdirection on his part? Plus, if you'll notice, Jason says "Take these men for example. They work for the Black Mask. And how do I know that? Let's just say a little birdie told me". Could be one of his torture victims, or... could be Jason himself.

Jason seems pretty bonkers at this point anyway, so I wouldn't put it past him.

Thoughts?

I hadn't thought of that, but you might be on to something.

The Jason Todd as Black Mask thing is a clever thought. Personally, I was thinking the new District Attorney, Hampton. He just got "wasted" by Jane Doe, sure ... but Gordon had kevlar on and Jane left a level of "could've killed you", and also the whole thing feels a bit like misdirection. More importantly ... the D.A., Hampton, is wearing the same kind of ridiculously snazzy suit that Black Mask has been wearing, and a trenchcoat as well.


Another interesting possibility. We do know that this guy doesn't continue on as DA, because Kate (Manhunter) Spencer is going to be the new DA.

Okay, maybe anatomy's failed me all these years, but it looked like Tim was stabbed much lower than where his heart would be.


Yeah, I thought the same thing.

Catwoman really has a thing for that costume. What happened to her while Tim was taking his beating? Gee...so much thanks for the backup there Selina!

I had the impression that Jason caught her offguard from behind and knocked her out.

The cover lied as others have said. No Cass, Spoiler, Squire, or some others.

As others have said, this cover is 1/3 of a poster, the entirety of which is representative of the mini-series as a whole.

Was the crowbar thing just an editorial homage or was it supposed to be intentional on Tim's part?

Editorial homage, I'd say.

I thought DC said it was Jason.

They have, on multiple occasions, in an article at IGN where they interview the Bat editorial Office, and in the solicitation text for issue 3 of Battle for the Cowl. It is Jason, there is no question of it.

I agree; it's Jason. I really don't think DC was expecting anyone to still think it was a mystery at this point--anymore than it's a mystery who the guy is with the yellow oval around his bat symbol. If you're going to be disappointed that this is Jason, I think you've missed the whole point of this mini-series.

An irony in Tim's injury is that his father died of a similar wound.

Ooooo, good one, Ken. I hadn't picked up on that.

I think you guys like it better because I have been strictly a Batman reader and have never followed the other books at length. I don't have a big connection with Robin or Nightwing.

You have my condolences.


What's also worth considering is that Nightwing and Robin might be affected by some psychological restraints when fighting Jason. Although they consciously condemn the things Jason has done since his return, on some level, they still recognize Jason as their "brother." Dick always felt a sense of personal guilt for what happened to Jason. Dick cannot help believing that if he had been a better Robin or stayed as Batman's partner, Bruce never would have recruited Jason as Robin (which led to Jason's eventual demise). Tim, for his part, admired and respected Jason before the latter returned as a murderous psychopath. Tim's early career as Robin was haunted by the shadow of Jason's death: even as he donned the Robin costume for the first time, Tim must have been acutely aware of Jason's costume in that glass case, with the plaque "A Good Soldier" commemorating Jason's death in action while wearing that costume. As much as their conscious minds can't sanction what Jason has become, Dick and Tim can't fully come to grips with having to fight their middle brother.


Another excellent point! You're really on the ball!

I haven't read Azrael #1 "Deaths Dark Knight" yet, probably should. Does this comic add anything to the puzzle?

No.

[Captain Jim]

Another good issue. I'll be really upset if Tim dies, but I'm not really expecting that (anymore than I expect Damian to die).

In some regards, I can see how some would think that Jason is acting uncharacteristically violent in this issue. That's because it's almost like we've had two entirely different Jason's over the last few years. There was the violent Jason from "Under the Hood," who seems pretty much identical to the character we see here. And there was the Jason from Countdown and the final Robin arc, who was pretty much the "Guy Gardner" of the Batman family--a jerk, but a likable jerk with a good heart. If this represents a permanent return to the original characterization, I applaud that.

Actually, I think Jason has permanently stepped over the line here. Can anyone really imagine him being accepted back into the "family" after shooting Damian and stabbing Tim and leaving him for dead? If there was still any doubt in anyone's mind about whether Jason might be the new Batman, this pretty much eliminates it. For that matter, I have difficulty seeing him as Red Robin or in any other heroic role.

[Samy]

I liked Jason as the "Guy Gardner" of the family. I hope Gun-Bat is someone else so Jason can step out of the shadows in #3 and join his brothers in giving Gatman a beatdown.

[Sean Whitmore]

II agree; it's Jason. I really don't think DC was expecting anyone to still think it was a mystery at this point--anymore than it's a mystery who the guy is with the yellow oval around his bat symbol. If you're going to be disappointed that this is Jason, I think you've missed the whole point of this mini-series.

Well, the point of the mini is ostensibly to see three issues of guys fighting, but it's still kind of a weird narrative choice. I mean, even Tim more or less responded to being called Tim.


SEAN

[Samy]

Yeah, the layout made a point out of how Gun-Bat *didn't* answer when he was called Jason.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

Well, the point of the mini is ostensibly to see three issues of guys fighting, but it's still kind of a weird narrative choice. I mean, even Tim more or less responded to being called Tim.


SEAN

How? He didn't say anything other than "you know I'm not Bruce," it what way is that admission? Neither of them confirmed or denied their identities, at all.

[T Hedge Coke]

Can anyone really imagine him being accepted back into the "family" after shooting Damian and stabbing Tim and leaving him for dead?

I think Bruce could forgive, but that's because, in the long run, Bruce Wayne's an optimist like that. For all his "last chance" talk, he never actually gives anyone a "last chance." Batdad, y'know? Stern parenting or something.

Jason just needs to save the sun, then everyone has to pretend like he was possessed by evil space yellow. It's how I forgive my friends and family when they go bad.

[Sean Whitmore]

How? He didn't say anything other than "you know I'm not Bruce," it what way is that admission? Neither of them confirmed or denied their identities, at all.

Fair enough. Tim didn't respond, but the story still confirmed it, with the note on the empty costume display.


SEAN

[Captain Jim]

Fair enough. Tim didn't respond, but the story still confirmed it, with the note on the empty costume display.


And I think the story confirmed that this is Jason. My gosh, a month ago everyone was criticizing Dick and Tim for not immediately figuring out the "obvious fact" that this was Jason.

[HopeLantern]

He beat her (actually, killed her) once while using a drug that gave him low-level super-speed, and had to bring her back to life with CPR. Then in the last issue of Robin, he poisoned her chocolate ahead of time, giving him a win by default.

Tim certainly shouldn't be able to beat Lady Shiva unassisted, no question. But he's also had the most and best hand-to-hand training of any of the Robins for his age (Dick's more agile and faster, but at that point in his career as Robin, he didn't know as much fighting technique as Tim does now), and the height/reach thing is rapidly becoming a non-issue: post-OYL, Tim's about 17, so he really shouldn't be that much shorter than Dick or Jason... he'll gain muscle over the next few years, but not much more height.

I reread all 3 Tim/Jason fights tonight just to compare. In the first one at Titans Tower, Jason clearly had the size advantage. Each of them deflected the other's attacks for the first part of the fight, Tim bloodied Jason's nose but then got kicked into a statue. The turning point came when Jason stole Tim's bo staff and knocked him into the hall of statues. Even then Tim scored the next two hits, but then was blinded by a gas pellet, and Jason used his superior strength to knock him out with a throw/kick/punch combo. With his last word before passing out, Tim got the moral victory, but physical win to Jason.

Second fight: Tim's one year taller, one year stronger. Even so, his real strength is his mind, predicting Jason's moves. Narration had him remembering how hard Jason hits, so instead he snagged Jason's arm with a bat-line and dragged him down into an alleyway. Jason's wild gunshots set off an explosion nearby, giving Tim the opportunity to swing down and kick him in the face. Getting to his gun, Jason managed to shoot Tim, and if not for the reinforced cape, that would have been the end of the fight (and Tim's life). Intervention by the General distracted Jason, after which a gang member shot him in the knee, ending the fight. Outcome: Tim scored more hits, but ultimately inconclusive.

Third fight (assuming Gatman is Jason): Tim scored first hit for the third time running with a kick to Jason's face. Both hit each other a couple times during a freefall. Tim landed amidst some hanging sheets and Jason sliced him several times from behind with a batarang, then threw in a couple punches for good measure. Tim grabbed a crowbar and hit back three times (I guess Jason's attack from behind is balanced out by Tim using the crowbar), but Jason either somehow slid a batarang between his ribs, or (as I read it) Tim accidentally fell on it at some point. Either way, fight over, Jason wins.

It's pretty clear that Jason won the first fight by being bigger, Tim held his own and/or won the second (depending on your interpretation) by using his brain, and the third fight was even until the end. My personal feeling is that they were equally matched in fighting skill, but Tim forgot to use his brain and let Jason turn it into a street brawl... that, plus Jason's willingness to use more lethal tactics, cost Tim the fight.

-D


This is an excellent analysis of the three fights. After reading the 2nd fight in Robin, where the General interferred, I say that fight has to go to Tim. But in a straight fight, Jason all the way. Tim, I think, for all his training by different fighters via Bruce... is simply a much better planner than fighter (see the above referenced fight against Lady Shiva in the final issue of Robin). He should never go head to head against Jason, and should always plan in advance. I guess it's hard since J.T. is still part of the "family", and in the back of their minds, they hope he will get it together.

Can't wait to see what Dick does... he's going to have his hands full.

[Samy]

a month ago everyone was criticizing Dick and Tim for not immediately figuring out the "obvious fact" that this was Jason.We have more data now than we did a month ago.

[Captain Jim]

We have more data now than we did a month ago.

You'll have to explain that one to me. A month ago it was obvious it was Jason, but now we know more and it's not obvious anymore?

[Will.S]

This issue was decent with the art being the most enjoyable aspect of the book.

I liked how Tim had the old school Neal Adams style costume and the armored Batman looked pretty spiffy too. However there were problems with the way the story was told, in particular the early Penguin sequence where he responds twice to being told that Two Face thinks that its him. Very strange and unnecessary.

I kind of wished that another writer were doing this story to be honest. Mostly because much of the potential is there to craft a much deeper story without dumbing it down and throwing in a gamut of villains. But for what it is it does okay for itself, I'm mostly anticipating the Morrison/Rucka stuff so I'm just waiting for whatever resolution happens within this story to get to that stuff.

6.5-7/10

[Mac]

I wish solicits only contained writer, artist and one simple subject/predicate sentence about the story....
However the solicits we have state Gun-bat is Jason.

[Samy]

You'll have to explain that one to me. A month ago it was obvious it was Jason, but now we know more and it's not obvious anymore?
In the past issue, we've gotten repeated points where they could have revealed he was the obvious choice of Jason, and they held off when they could've made the reveal. What are they building up to? Building up to revealing he's the obvious choice after all?

Makes no sense.

I'm not saying he's not Jason, but I am saying that the way the story in #2 was told *would* resolve better in #3 if it *wasn't* Jason and it would resolve worse if it was Jason.

[Captain Jim]

I wish solicits only contained writer, artist and one simple subject/predicate sentence about the story....
However the solicits we have state Gun-bat is Jason.

Solicits aren't written for the fans. They're written for the retailers, to help them know how to order.

[Samy]

However, who they are *intended* to is not the same as who they are eventually consumed by.

[Sean Whitmore]

And I think the story confirmed that this is Jason.

How?

At this point, Gun Bats could pull off his mask next issue, not be Jason, and it wouldn't contradict anything in this issue.

Which means that if it is Jason (which it probably is), then it's an odd narrative choice to have allowed that possibility. To have extended the "mystery", if you will. It's like keeping the box closed on Schroedinger's cat; right now, Gun Bats is both Jason and not Jason.

(On the flipside: on the off chance that it's not Jason, then it makes perfect sense and my gripe is withdrawn)


SEAN

[Captain Jim]

How?

At this point, Gun Bats could pull off his mask next issue, not be Jason, and it wouldn't contradict anything in this issue.

Which means that if it is Jason (which it probably is), then it's an odd narrative choice to have allowed that possibility. To have extended the "mystery", if you will. That's all I'm saying.

(On the flipside: on the off chance that it's not Jason, then it makes perfect sense and my gripe is withdrawn)


SEAN


But again, DC has outright said it's Jason. So I fail to see why this is still being debated.

[Samy]

Sean's right. There are certain laws of drama, and if it *is* Jason, then it breaks a law of drama.

Like if you show a gun in act two and *don't* have it go off by the end.

[Samy]

DC has outright said it's Jason.
Is that the same DC who solicited Flash: FMA #15?

[Captain Jim]

Is that the same DC who solicited Flash: FMA #15?

Soliciting a phantom book is not the same thing as lying about the contents. The former has no impact on the retailers; the latter does.

[Samy]

I'm sorry, but lying is lying. I don't trust a thing DC says until it's in the comics themselves.

[Sean Whitmore]

But again, DC has outright said it's Jason. So I fail to see why this is still being debated.

Nothing is being debated.

Well, I mean, I guess you and I are debating about whether or not Tony Daniel knows the proper way to frame a story, but I'm not debating Gun Bat's identity. The only wayI have a gripe is if he's Jason.


SEAN

[Captain Jim]

Nothing is being debated.

Well, I mean, I guess you and I are debating about whether or not Tony Daniel knows the proper way to frame a story, but I'm not debating Gun Bat's identity. The only wayI have a gripe is if he's Jason.


SEAN

Okay, got you.

[Abeja]

This might sound noob, but how long has Jason been that Batman( if it in fact is Jason)? Is he different than the one in Morrisons run? The one that was in the future fighting Damien, part of the three ghosts or something? And i guess Jason has some sort of alliance with Penguin?

[Sean Whitmore]

This might sound noob, but how long has Jason been that Batman( if it in fact is Jason)? Is he different than the one in Morrisons run? The one that was in the future fighting Damien, part of the three ghosts or something?

Just this mini. Morrison and the three ghosts are probably way too off the topic to get into here. :smile:


SEAN

[T Hedge Coke]

Just this mini. Morrison and the three ghosts are probably way too off the topic to get into here. :smile:

You do have to wonder why that look as been co-opted, though. It's not as though Jason is the only vigilante in Gotham recognizable by their chin, which would be the best reason for him to go fullface-mask in Batswear when no one else does.

[Sean Whitmore]

You do have to wonder why that look as been co-opted, though. It's not as though Jason is the only vigilante in Gotham recognizable by their chin, which would be the best reason for him to go fullface-mask in Batswear when no one else does.

I've figured it out...Gun Bats is really Dick Tracy! :eek:


SEAN

[Abeja]

Hmmm, could have swore that alot of people thought one of them was Jason, but they were policemen I believe. He was also at the end of RIP flying the helicopter with Bruce.

I havent looked at solicits, but is it gonna be Tim and Damien as B&R, and Dick also being a Batman? Or is Dick gonna take Damien under his wing like they have hinted at?

[F1uke]

You do have to wonder why that look as been co-opted, though. It's not as though Jason is the only vigilante in Gotham recognizable by their chin, which would be the best reason for him to go fullface-mask in Batswear when no one else does.

Well we know that the Third Policeman Batman/Ghost was Michael Lane, the current Azrael, is an African American, and by showing that GunBats is white, it rules Lane out still wearing that costume (though it wasn't really even a quesiton of him being GunBats).

I don't know if I want GunBats to be Jason or not. I'm almost positive it is, and I think I'd feel ripped off if it wasn't, but it would be awesome if Jason appeared and helped Dick, or was the Black Mask.

I'd also be ok if Jean Paul Valley is one of the two. Or both I guess.

[drwho]

i didnt read this but the whole idea of tim beating jason todd with a crowbar seems so odd. I didnt read the book so maybe that is just how you explain it. But your description sounds pretty brutal and not like any version of tim drake im familiar with. Maybe the batarang will knock some sense into him.

[T Hedge Coke]

i didnt read this but the whole idea of tim beating jason todd with a crowbar seems so odd. I didnt read the book so maybe that is just how you explain it. But your description sounds pretty brutal and not like any version of tim drake im familiar with. Maybe the batarang will knock some sense into him.

Tim's the only Robin to consistently care a blunt object designed for hitting people as Robin, isn't he? I mean, bo or crowbar...

[Sean Whitmore]

It's just the Bat-family being prepared, as usual.

Always keep some kryptonite on you in case Superman gets posessed.

And always keep a crowbar handy in case Jason Todd comes to town.


SEAN

[Lemurion]

Sean's right. There are certain laws of drama, and if it *is* Jason, then it breaks a law of drama.

Like if you show a gun in act two and *don't* have it go off by the end.

This story isn't breaking any laws of drama by having Jason be Gatman. The problem I see is that people are trying to apply the conventions of a mystery story to this mini-series when DC isn't treating it as a mystery.

If the story question was "Who is Gatman?" then it would be very important to state explicitly that Gatman is Jason before the reader could believe it. But that's not the story question here. The story question here is "Which brother takes their father's legacy?" Given that story question Gatman has to be Jason.

As to Chekhov's gun, since we know from solicits that Jason is a gun-wielding Batman in issue three it would break far more story-telling rules to have someone else be Gatman and introduce Jason as another gun-toting Batman. The closest thing I've seen to a Chekhov's gun in the series was the appearance of Gatman at the end of issue one: that's a perfect initial appearance for the main antagonist in the actual battle for the cowl.

[Red_Knight]

Great second issue! Can't wait to read the conclusion next month!

As far as Black Mask goes, I'd go out on a limb and say it has to be DA Hampton at this point. He could conceivably have any number of motives, and it seems plausible (in comic book terms) that he'd have the connections to orchestrate what we've seen Black Mask pull off so far. Besides, -- we already know that Kate Spencer will be Gotham's DA come June! That means something has to happen with Hampton. Of course, he could be "the body" that was announced, but that would strike me as rather anti-climactic. I think it's far more likely that he'll be outed as Black Mask.

Yeah, #3 should be good... :biggrin:

[Karl O'Neill]

I smell a twist.

It's not jason.

[drwho]

has 2 faced been ruled out as a potential batman?

[Alexx1]

I smell a twist.

It's not jason.


The thing I find with DC writer's they're typically predictable (with the exception a few). So I don't think they'll be a twist. I'd like to Gatman not to be Jason but it seems it is. Plus Tim's having a conversation with him. He knows his voice, his body type, his fighting style. Tim seems pretty positive it is Jason. I am hoping it's not though. I'm hoping that whatever Batman told him on that video or whatever (the last Robin issue) somehow Jason will come to redeem himself. But I if Gatman isn't Jason, I don't have a clue who it could be.

[Red Lotus]

Well we know that the Third Policeman Batman/Ghost was Michael Lane, the current Azrael, is an African American, and by showing that GunBats is white, it rules Lane out still wearing that costume (though it wasn't really even a quesiton of him being GunBats).

I don't know if I want GunBats to be Jason or not. I'm almost positive it is, and I think I'd feel ripped off if it wasn't, but it would be awesome if Jason appeared and helped Dick, or was the Black Mask.

I'd also be ok if Jean Paul Valley is one of the two. Or both I guess.


It would be a better story if Jason was Black Mask and Gunbats was some one else.

i didnt read this but the whole idea of tim beating jason todd with a crowbar seems so odd. I didnt read the book so maybe that is just how you explain it. But your description sounds pretty brutal and not like any version of tim drake im familiar with. Maybe the batarang will knock some sense into him.

The idea seems odd but it worked with how they did it. Tim was getting the crap beat out of him and he grab the first thing he could and hit Jason with it.

It's just the Bat-family being prepared, as usual.

Always keep some kryptonite on you in case Superman gets posessed.

And always keep a crowbar handy in case Jason Todd comes to town.


SEAN


My fav issue of the Outsiders was the one where Superman came to confront Nightwing about the things the Outsiders were doing and Nightwing pulled out a lead box and told him that this is why Superman wont stop them from doing what they were doing. The other Outsiders thought that Nightwing was bluffing but at the end they showed that he really had some kryptonite in the box. Great Issue.

Great second issue! Can't wait to read the conclusion next month!

As far as Black Mask goes, I'd go out on a limb and say it has to be DA Hampton at this point. He could conceivably have any number of motives, and it seems plausible (in comic book terms) that he'd have the connections to orchestrate what we've seen Black Mask pull off so far. Besides, -- we already know that Kate Spencer will be Gotham's DA come June! That means something has to happen with Hampton. Of course, he could be "the body" that was announced, but that would strike me as rather anti-climactic. I think it's far more likely that he'll be outed as Black Mask.

Yeah, #3 should be good... :biggrin:

Wasn't that Hampton who Jane Doe shot in the face.

[Shush]

Part of me is hoping that Gatman isn't Jason. Despite being a killer nothing in Jason's previous outings (Under the hood, annual, titans, nightwing, robin, even countdown) has shown him this dark or insane. Shooting Damian and stabbing Tim both in the chest with the intention of killing seems way off for Jason.

[agentofthebat]

I think Hush is the Gatman. Didnt we hear he would be showing his face a little in BFTC?

Whats a better way then stabing someone who caught you and locked you up. Plus Tommy liked guns.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

I think Hush is the Gatman. Didnt we hear he would be showing his face a little in BFTC?

Whats a better way then stabing someone who caught you and locked you up. Plus Tommy liked guns.

Just the opposite, they said that Hush wouldn't be showing up in Battle for the Cowl.

[agentofthebat]

oh lol im way off then. Its Jason then.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

oh lol im way off then. Its Jason then.

Before they said he wouldn't be featured in it, he was on the very first preview image. Since then they said a lot of that wouldn't be appearing in the title, it was just symbolic, and then later that they weren't going to be including Tommy in the Bat title until after Battle for the Cowl, but would be featuring him afterward.

[Jkid099]

Not sure if anyone has theorized this yet, but what if Jason Todd is not only the gun-toting Batman / Gatman / whatever, but also "Black Mask"? Black Mask returning from the dead isn't entirely out of left field ... but it seems a bit over the top for the Bat titles (granted Firefly seems to be alive again, so ...)

But Jason, in the past, has shown a propensity for disguises that help him to "play both sides." What if he's acting as Black Mask as a means of doing what Batman had failed to do in the past ... that is, to eliminate the criminal element by having them rip each other apart? He's proved that he cares not for the collateral damage of such a plan, so issues concerning casualties would not arise as long as he succeeds.

Even in the last issue, if you look as the design and coloration of Black Mask's and Gatman's eyes, they are very similar.

Thoughts?

[Captain Jim]

I havent looked at solicits, but is it gonna be Tim and Damien as B&R, and Dick also being a Batman? Or is Dick gonna take Damien under his wing like they have hinted at?

They haven't said who they're going to be; they're trying to keep that under the table. But they have said that the Batman in the "Batman" title will be the same person appearing as Batman in "Batman & Robin." So presumably there will only be one Batman. Most people are guessing it's going to be Dick and Damian.

This story isn't breaking any laws of drama by having Jason be Gatman. The problem I see is that people are trying to apply the conventions of a mystery story to this mini-series when DC isn't treating it as a mystery.

If the story question was "Who is Gatman?" then it would be very important to state explicitly that Gatman is Jason before the reader could believe it. But that's not the story question here. The story question here is "Which brother takes their father's legacy?" Given that story question Gatman has to be Jason.


Thank you. That's the point I was trying to make earlier, but you said it much better than I did.

Tim was getting the crap beat out of him and he grab the first thing he could and hit Jason with it.

Exactly. It's just coincidence that it was a crowbar.

[Samy]

The problem I see is that people are trying to apply the conventions of a mystery story to this mini-series when DC isn't treating it as a mystery.Yes, they are.

If the story question was "Who is Gatman?" then it would be very important to state explicitly that Gatman is Jason before the reader could believe it. But that's not the story question here.I disagree. I think it is. It may be secondary to "who ends up taking the cowl", but it *is* still a prominent question in the series. If it weren't, we would already have been told who he is. It's *intentionally* being kept unrevealed. That's pretty much the definition of a mystery.The story question here is "Which brother takes their father's legacy?"That's *one* of the questions.

As to Chekhov's gun, since we know from solicits that Jason is a gun-wielding Batman in issue three it would break far more story-telling rules to have someone else be Gatman and introduce Jason as another gun-toting Batman.We also know from solicits that Flash: FMA #15 is being published.

[Captain Jim]

This story isn't breaking any laws of drama by having Jason be Gatman. The problem I see is that people are trying to apply the conventions of a mystery story to this mini-series when DC isn't treating it as a mystery.

If the story question was "Who is Gatman?" then it would be very important to state explicitly that Gatman is Jason before the reader could believe it. But that's not the story question here. The story question here is "Which brother takes their father's legacy?" Given that story question Gatman has to be Jason.

It simply amazes me that people would prefer to see Gatman be revealed as someone totally off the wall (like Jean Paul Valley, who hasn't been seen or heard from in six years, and whom half of the readers probably aren't even acquainted with) than the only logical person in could be.

[Samy]

What's the point of hearing a story if you know how it's going to end?

As far as I'm concerned, a very major reason to partake of stories is to be surprised.

[Captain Jim]

What's the point of hearing a story if you know how it's going to end?

As far as I'm concerned, a very major reason to partake of stories is to be surprised.

There's a lot we don't know about what's going to happen in this mini-series. We don't know who the new Black Mask is (there's a real mystery for you), we don't know for sure who the new Batman, Robin, and Red Robin will be (though we all have theories). We don't know who's going to get injuried, or to what degree. We don't know who's going to die (presumably someone is). There's all sorts of stuff we don't know (though it's fun to speculate). There's plenty enough "surprise" here already to keep me happy; I don't have to invent mysteries that aren't really there.

[Samy]

It is really there. If it weren't, they would have confirmed that it's Jason.

We got reams of inner monologue in #2. We had two characters accuse him of being Jason. In *all* incidents, the script *pointedly* declined to say it's Jason.

That's not imagining a mystery. That *is* a mystery.

[Captain Jim]

It is really there. If it weren't, they would have confirmed that it's Jason.

We got reams of inner monologue in #2. We had two characters accuse him of being Jason. In *all* incidents, the script *pointedly* declined to say it's Jason.

That's not imagining a mystery. That *is* a mystery.

Samy, they HAVE told you. As you yourself acknowledge, you simply aren't willing to believe them.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

What's the point of hearing a story if you know how it's going to end?

As far as I'm concerned, a very major reason to partake of stories is to be surprised.

Absolutely, but not every story is a mystery. Just because you know a story is going from point A to point B doesn't mean you know how it is going to look getting there. It is the road there, not the destination that makes the story really good. A logical story should have clues and indicators that point to where it is going, and a swerve along the way is good here and there, more so in the mystery genre, but outright lying isn't a twist, it is deception, and isn't good storytelling. They've told us from the outset that it is Jason Todd, in official writing from DC, from the editors and author's mouths in interviews and from the two other main characters in the title's second issue.


EDIT: Also, Tim doesn't admit to being Tim when Selina starts to call him Tim, in the same way that Jason doesn't admit to being Jason. Isn't Jason's talking with Tim back and forth a good indication that he IS Jason. He never says "think again Boy Wonder!" or anything to deny it, to indicate that he isn't Jason. No, Tim calls him Jason, and Jason says "join me." Where is the hint that he is someone else? Usually you don't ask someone to join you as your partner right after they say they think you're somebody else. Tim's detective skills got him to the gun-toting Batman's headquarters, and that worked, he figured out who Batman and Robin were when he was a little kid, and yet, now, he couldn't correctly identify Jason AND Jean Paul Valley, both of which he has fought with. None of this makes any sense story wise. It is all a moot point, as they have said it is him explicitly, but there are no pointed hints that the readers aren't manufacturing. At least none that don't exist for Tim as Batman as well.

[Samy]

Samy, they HAVE told you. As you yourself acknowledge, you simply aren't willing to believe them.

Tell me, then why they are very pointedly avoiding confirming it on the comic itself?

[Captain Jim]

Not sure if anyone has theorized this yet, but what if Jason Todd is not only the gun-toting Batman / Gatman / whatever, but also "Black Mask"? Black Mask returning from the dead isn't entirely out of left field ... but it seems a bit over the top for the Bat titles (granted Firefly seems to be alive again, so ...)

But Jason, in the past, has shown a propensity for disguises that help him to "play both sides." What if he's acting as Black Mask as a means of doing what Batman had failed to do in the past ... that is, to eliminate the criminal element by having them rip each other apart? He's proved that he cares not for the collateral damage of such a plan, so issues concerning casualties would not arise as long as he succeeds.

Even in the last issue, if you look as the design and coloration of Black Mask's and Gatman's eyes, they are very similar.

Thoughts?

Yeah, this has been suggested a couple of times earlier in this thread.

[Lemurion]

Yes, they are.

I disagree. I think it is. It may be secondary to "who ends up taking the cowl", but it *is* still a prominent question in the series. If it weren't, we would already have been told who he is. It's *intentionally* being kept unrevealed. That's pretty much the definition of a mystery.That's *one* of the questions.

We also know from solicits that Flash: FMA #15 is being published.

There are elements of mystery in the story - but that is not the same thing as DC treating the story as a mystery.

As to the necessity of stating explicitly that Gatman is Jason; to the best of my knowledge they haven't explicitly told us that the character in the 70's era suit is Tim either. It's not being kept unrevealed: they told us in solicits. Also having both Tim and Dick make a mistake would show neither was worth the cowl - not going to happen.

As to the FMA 15 solicits - there is a big difference between soliciting a comic and then canceling it and providing false solicits: your LCS isn't going to be out of pocket ordering a book on false information if the book is canceled first.

Lots of books are solicited and never end up shipping - but I defy you to find any that have deliberately false solicits. That's a very different thing and a line DC isn't going to cross for a mini.

[Samy]

It's not being kept unrevealed: they told us in solicits.Then why are they not telling it in the issue? What are they avoiding? That's something none of you have been able to explain so far.

As to the FMA 15 solicits - there is a big difference between soliciting a comic and then canceling it and providing false solicits: your LCS isn't going to be out of pocket ordering a book on false information if the book is canceled first.I am not an LCS. Therefore, there is *no difference* *to me*. Lying is lying is lying.

[dreyga2000]

Part of me is hoping that Gatman isn't Jason. Despite being a killer nothing in Jason's previous outings (Under the hood, annual, titans, nightwing, robin, even countdown) has shown him this dark or insane. Shooting Damian and stabbing Tim both in the chest with the intention of killing seems way off for Jason.

In defense, Jason action's make sense as he used to beat grown men to a bloodly pulp as child... when he sees another kun-fu child in mask safe bet he isn't going to automatically write him off "no threat"...

Likewise in previous outings Jason as fired dual semi-automatic hand guns as tim with the intention of killing him.. In fact in one situation he would have killed Tim had he not been shot be a gang meber with the his own gun..

[Red Lotus]

Yes, they are.

I disagree. I think it is. It may be secondary to "who ends up taking the cowl", but it *is* still a prominent question in the series. If it weren't, we would already have been told who he is. It's *intentionally* being kept unrevealed. That's pretty much the definition of a mystery.That's *one* of the questions.

We also know from solicits that Flash: FMA #15 is being published.


But the who is Gatman part of the story is about as important as who is Blackmask.

It simply amazes me that people would prefer to see Gatman be revealed as someone totally off the wall (like Jean Paul Valley, who hasn't been seen or heard from in six years, and whom half of the readers probably aren't even acquainted with) than the only logical person in could be.


I can kind of see why they would want it not to be Jason it could make it a little better of a story.

There's a lot we don't know about what's going to happen in this mini-series. We don't know who the new Black Mask is (there's a real mystery for you), we don't know for sure who the new Batman, Robin, and Red Robin will be (though we all have theories). We don't know who's going to get injuried, or to what degree. We don't know who's going to die (presumably someone is). There's all sorts of stuff we don't know (though it's fun to speculate). There's plenty enough "surprise" here already to keep me happy; I don't have to invent mysteries that aren't really there.

I want Blackmask to be the Riddler. Nothing points to him, but its just some thing i want to happen.

It is really there. If it weren't, they would have confirmed that it's Jason.

We got reams of inner monologue in #2. We had two characters accuse him of being Jason. In *all* incidents, the script *pointedly* declined to say it's Jason.

That's not imagining a mystery. That *is* a mystery.


Its a mystery, but not as big as you are trying to make it out to be.


IGN Comics: Tim's search to deduce the identity of this new gun-toting Batman kind of drives the issue forward. Will this mystery play out over the course of the miniseries, or will you move past that question relatively early?

Daniel: We'll get past that fairly quickly. There are only three issues, so we have to get to that point within what I'm calling the second act. Tim and Dick are going to understand who it is they're dealing with, and they're not going to like it.

The second issue is the 2nd act.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

And to make it even more specific, Tony Daniel discusses it at his newly reopened blog in the comments of the most recent blog post. He yet again confirms it is Jason Todd in no uncertain terms:

"JT looking like the third Batman was sort of intentional."

"Thank you CG. We will reveal what's led JT to this point next issue. There's a reason why he's snapped.
This story isn't a mystery - it's an action/adventure."

Denying that it is Jason Todd is tantamount to calling several different people, including Tony Daniel and Mike Marts liars.

[Samy]

You keep giving evidence from outside the comics. They are irrelevant. I don't believe a single thing DC says until it's *down on the page*. Period.

[Alexx1]

And to make it even more specific, Tony Daniel discusses it at his newly reopened blog in the comments of the most recent blog post. He yet again confirms it is Jason Todd in no uncertain terms:

"JT looking like the third Batman was sort of intentional."

"Thank you CG. We will reveal what's led JT to this point next issue. There's a reason why he's snapped.
This story isn't a mystery - it's an action/adventure."

Denying that it is Jason Todd is tantamount to calling several different people, including Tony Daniel and Mike Marts liars.

I guess Jason didn't like whatever Batman had to say to him on that video.

[Red_Knight]

Here's a thought I just had:

We know Jason is Gatman (yes, we do, quit arguing! :tongue: ), and it has been suspected that Black Mask might be DA Hampton. Based on the knowledge and connections a man of his standing should have, it seems plausible (in comic book terms) that he could've managed to pull off what we've seen Black Mask do.

Now, what if Jason/"Gatman" and Hampton/"Black Mask II", are actually in cahoots to clean up or at least control Gotham, -- by all means necessary, of course? I could see Jason and Hampton working together in a twisted mirror-image of the early Batman/Dent-partnership; -- feeding each other information, setting things up, having the other do things they can't do themselves.

We've seen Jason ambush Black Mask's men on multiple occasions, although Mask's return supposedly went unnoticed. How's that possible? Maybe because Black Mask himself is the "little birdie" (mentioned in BftC #2) that told Jason!

Meanwhile, Two-Face and Penguin, two key-figures in the underworld turf war, remain completely in the dark and are now at each other's throat thanks to the machinations of Black Mask. If the Gatman/Black Mask team exists and is indeed looking to take over Gotham, this development can only serve to help them.

Then, of course, there are the Arkham inmates. Would a DA seriously agree to free them and blow up Arkham? Of course he would! Why not? They are not actually free; -- they are slaves to the Black Mask, who can kill them by voice command. If Black Mask is indeed Hampton, he's probably thrilled! I don't think any court of law -- even in the DCU -- would have allowed him to take this step as DA. As Black Mask, he doesn't need permission. The inmates are now forced to dance to the beat of his drum, but the public doesn't know this. So Hampton -- as DA -- might have a platform to make sweeping changes in the near future and/or sell people on the "new and improved" Batman, -- a.k.a. Gatman.

I must say I like the idea... What do you think?

[Karl O'Neill]

I think I like the nickname GATMAN, I have heard the rapper eminem use this term before in some of his songs, now we get a super cool reason to use the term. because of the gun toting extremist batman!

Awesome.

[Harding Prime]

I haven't gone through the entire thread, just the first two pages, but here are some thoughts...

Just noticing, nowhere in the inner monologue of the Gatman! or even when referrenced by himself when being spoken to by Dick or Tim, does he himself ever say he is Jason. I thought his inner monologue at the beginning sounded more like Valley then Jason. And he never name dropped himself to Tim or Dick, so I'm not fully sure it is Jason. A stretch, I know, but just read over it again and notice he never drops the dime on himself, even after both Tim and Dick's acqusations. And everything they have said about him fits Valley, too. He knows everyone's name, and everything else they've shared.

Also, I saw someone say they don't expect Tim to beat Jason in a fight, I don't see why not, Tim and Dick have both whopped that boy since his comeback. Tim is such a better trained... everything to Jason. The crowbar omage was pretty sweet though.

[Harding Prime]

One could go over the narration/inner monologue of #2 and try to pick out clues.

* Came along after Dick Grayson (duh, so did everybody).
* Thought "lessons should be learned, examples made".
* Knows Bruce and Dick's identities
* Was brought under Bruce's wing at some point, thinks it was because Bruce wanted to prevent him becoming an enemy
* Never desired to be an enemy, only a replacement

Among other things.

Multiple times in the issue, he's accused of being Jason, yet he dodges the point, not answering. If he was Jason, why would he? Why would the revelation be delayed if it wasn't to pull a twist?

Other possibilities are Jean-Paul Valley and Deathwing (the Dick Grayson from Team Titans). Nobody really gives a crap about Deathwing, but Jean-Paul could make for a decent twist revelation.

Honestly, if they do reveal it's Jason after this dancing around the issue and avoiding the question, it'll be a letdown. On the other hand if they do make it somebody other than Jason, I think it will make this actually a pretty good mislead and a pretty good story.

I think Jason coming in to save the day for Dick against Gatman would be the best plot twist.

[Devil_LeonX]

So i don't start a useless thread was there another batman that looks like todds armored one? I heard something about it and he appeared sometime last year I think along with 2 other Batmen that was like bane and another one which look like the regular one any of this true?any pics?thanks in advance guys

[Choppa]

^He was one of the three Batmen in Morrison's arc. He's now the new Azrael.

[Devil_LeonX]

^He was one of the three Batmen in Morrison's arc. He's now the new Azrael.

AH i see thanks alot!!! i was thinking it was him would you or anyone have any pics of him when he was in the armor just curious or know the issues where he appears?

[Captain Jim]

I thought his inner monologue at the beginning sounded more like Valley then Jason.

Seriously? I thought the monologue made it pretty clear this was Jason. In fact, I have a hard time reading it any other way.

[Red Lotus]

and it has been suspected that Black Mask might be DA Hampton. Based on the knowledge and connections a man of his standing should have, it seems plausible (in comic book terms) that he could've managed to pull off what we've seen Black Mask do.

Who was the DA guy that Gordon was talking to right before Jane Doe shot the DA in the face.

[Lemurion]

I thought the monologue was pure Jason too - and I don't see JPV wanting Tim as his Robin. They tried that once and it didn't work.

[Crimson Knightman]

The identity of the Batman killer will show Tony Daniel's writing ability, if it's a predictable occurence like Jason Todd being the one behind the jaded cowl then the whole mystery behind it all would be for nothing. Overwhelmingly, the general assumption was that Jason was the one to begin with. In order for any of this to be memorable, there needs to be a big twist on the horizon. Perhaps the Batman killer is the Joker. The Joker is unpredictable, essentially a wild card in every aspect. The Joker knows who Batman is both inside and out and since his life evolves around him 24/7, why not let him be the one to drag the Batman name through the mud, in an attempt to bring him back.

Because I find it hard to believe the Joker actually believes Batman is dead, I would imagine he is just as cynical about the idea of Batman finally being gone as Batman would be about the idea of him finally being gone. Another reason why I think it could be the Joker is because awhile ago, there was an image of the Joker card and with it notably a backwards "J" which could indicate the Joker goes in the opposite direction and symbolically Batman is the opposite direction from the Joker. Aside from that, they've got to do something big with the Joker regarding Batman's "death". The Joker has already tried to "reform" because he thought Batman was dead, so there has to be something groundbreaking and I think him masquerading as Batman and destroying that symbol through death could be the trick. But it wouldn't surprise me if it ended up being Jason and that's the problem IMO.

[Captain Jim]

The identity of the Batman killer will show Tony Daniel's writing ability, if it's a predictable occurence like Jason Todd being the one behind the jaded cowl then the whole mystery behind it all would be for nothing.

You all keep treating this like it's a mystery when it's not. Even Daniels has said it's not a mystery.

[Captain Jim]

Who was the DA guy that Gordon was talking to right before Jane Doe shot the DA in the face.

Not sure what you mean by "who was he?" He's the new DA and his name is Hampton. I'm not sure anything else has been revealed about him. I don't recall seeing him before this storyline.

[Crimson Knightman]

You all keep treating this like it's a mystery when it's not. Even Daniels has said it's not a mystery.

It's kind of hard not to when Daniels makes a point of not showing us the identity of the Bat killer or the new Black Mask thus initiating a mystery.

[40footwolf]

Man, I hope they didn't ACTUALLY kill Tim.

That would eat balls, majorly.

[Red Lotus]

Not sure what you mean by "who was he?" He's the new DA and his name is Hampton. I'm not sure anything else has been revealed about him. I don't recall seeing him before this storyline.

Thanks. People kept saying that DA Hampton might be the new Blackmask and I thought that was Hampton who Jane Doe shot in the face/neck. But I wasn't sure. I dont see how people think he might be Blackmask after that.

[Retro315]

Thanks. People kept saying that DA Hampton might be the new Blackmask and I thought that was Hampton who Jane Doe shot in the face/neck. But I wasn't sure. I dont see how people think he might be Blackmask after that.

I suggested that first. I mean, they're wearing practically the same clothes - a really sharp looking suit and trenchcoat, and this Hampton guy comes out of nowhere, we've never heard of him before this, and lo and behold there's a new Black Mask on the scene who isn't Roman Sionis.

Jane Doe "gunning him down" is the classic super-villain death fakeout you see all the time in comics, where he pulls off the Black Mask later in front of Gordon and gives the whole "mwuhahahaha, it was me all along!". Plus it'd give him the old "playing both sides of the criminal/police/political field" angle that they do from time to time (Two-Face as the original D.A. turned villain wrote the book on it).

But it's all just speculation, and it's just my best guess. I like the "Jason is pretending to be both Batman and Black Mask" theory too, it's a logical step in his psycho way of cleaning up Gotham's streets, since he's done the "vigilante on one hand, takeover of games" thing before.

I think those are the only two rational guesses for Black Mask's identity - if his identity is shown at all, or is duplicitous, it's GOING to be one of the characters seen in the pages of Battle for the Cowl.

[amidcars]

I seem to recall there being quite a bit of rumors about Tim getting seriously injured in issue #2, and there it was. It doesn't look like Jason got him in the heart (at least not how Daniels drew it), but he no doubt will be out of commission for a while. Sad, too. The idea of Tim as Batman has grown on me quite a bit since the last issue of Robin. His fighting skills are nowhere near the level of Dick, but his detective skills are quite on point. I have to admit though, I was somewhat surprised about the fight. I always thought Tim was a much better fighter than Jason... I think they fought in a recent issue of Robin, and I thought Tim was stating how Jason had only power, but no finesse. Poor Tim... here's hoping for a speedy rescue.

[Red Lotus]

I suggested that first. I mean, they're wearing practically the same clothes - a really sharp looking suit and trenchcoat, and this Hampton guy comes out of nowhere, we've never heard of him before this, and lo and behold there's a new Black Mask on the scene who isn't Roman Sionis.

Jane Doe "gunning him down" is the classic super-villain death fakeout you see all the time in comics, where he pulls off the Black Mask later in front of Gordon and gives the whole "mwuhahahaha, it was me all along!". Plus it'd give him the old "playing both sides of the criminal/police/political field" angle that they do from time to time (Two-Face as the original D.A. turned villain wrote the book on it).

But it's all just speculation, and it's just my best guess. I like the "Jason is pretending to be both Batman and Black Mask" theory too, it's a logical step in his psycho way of cleaning up Gotham's streets, since he's done the "vigilante on one hand, takeover of games" thing before.

I think those are the only two rational guesses for Black Mask's identity - if his identity is shown at all, or is duplicitous, it's GOING to be one of the characters seen in the pages of Battle for the Cowl.

That would be a good set up to fool Gordon.

[Lemurion]

Gatman is Jason Todd: See IGN (http://comics.ign.com/articles/972/972153p1.html)

[Rollo_Tomasi]

thank god that's been put to rest.

I can still see Jason Todd being Black Mask. His motivations could lead him down that path.

[nepenthes]

I havn't read BOTC 2 yet but by the sounds of it.....wow. it gets worse. This is like fan fiction nightmare.

You're damn right about that.

I read BftC #2 and was clinging to the hope that Daniel had something more complex in mind with Jason that would be shown in the third issue. But I guess not. Sorry, but Jason as an anti-hero is so much more interesting than him as a flat-out psycho villain. That is just weak. It doesn't even make sense. All of a sudden he's willing to shoot kids and gut Tim. It's not necessary to cripple Jason's character with this crap to show that Dick is the one who should be Batman. Hell, that's not even a challenge.

I know it's probably too much to hope for, but hopefully Winick can play damage control on Jason. Unless he's changed his mind about the character and Daniel is working off of his BftC notes.

Whereas I see this as a terribly forced and unnatural progression for the character. 'I know, let's make him a totally irredeemable jerk, because it's more badass that way!' It smacks of lazy writing. Morally gray characters who LEGITIMATELY challenge the Batfamily's ridiculously rigid moral code would be too difficult to write, so it makes sense to go with a complete nutter who is entirely unsympathetic because he shoots children.

...

Batman's greatest nightmare would not be some nut killing people, he's got plenty of those already, and he, like the rest of us, knows they're wrong. No, a much scarier thing would if the rejection of his moral code made the individual (Jason) a more effective crime fighter than Batman.


I agree with all of this. very well said. Daniels grasp on these characters and the storytelling is rudimentary and juvenile.

[Captain Jim]

I just added a poll. Please vote.

[Harding Prime]

thank god that's been put to rest.

I can still see Jason Todd being Black Mask. His motivations could lead him down that path.

I think the Black Mask is.... the Black Mask.:confused:

He didn't die in Under the Hood, so when was the last time we saw him?

[Red_Knight]

I think the Black Mask is.... the Black Mask.:confused:

He didn't die in Under the Hood, so when was the last time we saw him?

Ummm... Black Mask is supposed to be dead; -- pretty decisively so, in fact. He got shot in the face by Catwoman and subsequently fell off a building, IIRC. His cracked skull was later seen at the GCPD. So, yeah, he is dead.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

Ummm... Black Mask is supposed to be dead; -- pretty decisively so, in fact. He got shot in the face by Catwoman and subsequently fell off a building, IIRC. His cracked skull was later seen at the GCPD. So, yeah, he is dead.

And the author explained in an interview after the first issue that it was a new Black Mask for sure, because as you mentioned, the previous one is totally dead.

[Harding Prime]

Ummm... Black Mask is supposed to be dead; -- pretty decisively so, in fact. He got shot in the face by Catwoman and subsequently fell off a building, IIRC. His cracked skull was later seen at the GCPD. So, yeah, he is dead.

Ok, didn't really answer my question of when this occured. Like I said, the last I saw the Black Mask was in "Under the Hood". If you could elaborate a little more, that would be helpful.

[Captain Jim]

Ok, didn't really answer my question of when this occured. Like I said, the last I saw the Black Mask was in "Under the Hood". If you could elaborate a little more, that would be helpful.

Don't have the exact #, but it was one of the last issues of Catwoman before OYL.

[HopeLantern]

I agree with all of this. very well said. Daniels grasp on these characters and the storytelling is rudimentary and juvenile.

Not really... no...

So far he's nailed Tim's inner monologue as well as showcased Tim's detective skill. He gives us an insight into how Tim can put the clues together to figure out Jason as Gatman.

He's also done a good job showing Nightwing's Inner struggle. Let's not forget, he's got only 3 issues to get Dick from refusing to wear the cowl, to becoming the new Batman. We've known this wasn't going to be a major mystery so much as a "How does it happen". As for Jason, he's been written so inconsistently, that Daniels really has finally placed him on a side of the fence. Now he's "Villian". Not anti-hero, not hero, not misguided. This is probably one of the better characterizations of Jason in a while. He's never had a set personality...he goes from kinda bad, to somewhat bad, to really bad, and back again. Now, he's "Bad". I think this makes this easier for future Jason writers in a way actually.

So far Catwoman, Alfred, and Two-Face seem comparable to other versions. And "Penguin"... that was probably one of the best he's been written in some time. So now, I don't think Daniels is doing a horrible job with this at all. Don't forget, at one of the last conventions, where they were doing the BFTC Panel, he stated that he had several things that Editorial was mandating he had to accomplish in the story. I'm guessing "Gun toting Jason" was one of them.

[Harding Prime]

Don't have the exact #, but it was one of the last issues of Catwoman before OYL.

Hmmm, Under the Hood happened right at the beginning of Infinite Crisis, as you can see Bludhaven blow up in the background and Jason telling Bruce not to leave to save Dick. Did he walk out of the bar that he stabbed fake-Jason at and get killed immediately?

[yourverysilly]

well I think the armoured batman is azrael. anyone else?

[Lemurion]

well I think the armoured batman is azrael. anyone else?

A few people seem to agree with you: However a number of people from DC have gone on record stating that it's Jason. The list includes Dan Didio, Tony Daniel, and Mike Marts.

For it to be Azrael there would have to be a concerted conspiracy of lying on the part of DC and its employees. I don't see it. Misdirection is common, but not outright lies.

[Mac]

How is that still debatable in any form?

[Lemurion]

How is that still debatable in any form?

Because there are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

[Violently Apathetic]

.
Not anti-hero, not hero, not misguided. This is probably one of the better characterizations of Jason in a while. He's never had a set personality...he goes from kinda bad, to somewhat bad, to really bad, and back again. Now, he's "Bad". I think this makes this easier for future Jason writers in a way actually.

Oh, well, as long as it's EASIER! :rolleyes:

[nepenthes]

Not really... no...

So far he's nailed Tim's inner monologue as well as showcased Tim's detective skill. He gives us an insight into how Tim can put the clues together to figure out Jason as Gatman.

He's also done a good job showing Nightwing's Inner struggle. Let's not forget, he's got only 3 issues to get Dick from refusing to wear the cowl, to becoming the new Batman. We've known this wasn't going to be a major mystery so much as a "How does it happen". As for Jason, he's been written so inconsistently, that Daniels really has finally placed him on a side of the fence. Now he's "Villian". Not anti-hero, not hero, not misguided. This is probably one of the better characterizations of Jason in a while. He's never had a set personality...he goes from kinda bad, to somewhat bad, to really bad, and back again. Now, he's "Bad". I think this makes this easier for future Jason writers in a way actually.

So far Catwoman, Alfred, and Two-Face seem comparable to other versions. And "Penguin"... that was probably one of the best he's been written in some time. So now, I don't think Daniels is doing a horrible job with this at all. Don't forget, at one of the last conventions, where they were doing the BFTC Panel, he stated that he had several things that Editorial was mandating he had to accomplish in the story. I'm guessing "Gun toting Jason" was one of them.

Tim detective work was laughable. Daniels just strung together a couple tricks from CSI and wasted up a bunch of pages when it should have been clear for the beginning who was most likely Jason Todd. Nightwings monologues have just seemed very trite and cliche to me, as is the whole story. they all talk in puns and melodramatic exposition. And no I don't mind the question of making Jason irredeemable, or "Bad", as you say. But in this manner? No thanks. All he's done portray Jason as a shallow and gratuitous character, he not actually that badarse at all. This is a story for sticky, flabby 15 year olds. IMO. Fortunately this will all be largely ignored when it's all over I suspect, whatever Winick doesn't tidy up at least.

[theNighteye]

I give it a 7.5 out of 10. Jason Todd is not one of my favorite characters so this was ok. And what is considered a fatal injury these days!!!???? Tim had a baterang coming out through his stomach all the way from behind! If that doesn't kill you then i guess nothing can. I'm kinda tired of this extremely dramatic injuries that don't kill anybody. That just makes everybody Superman.

[4sake]

GM made me stop reading Batman/DC but TD just may bring me back. I love Jason Todd & I hope he stays as Batman ,but I think he will. I see Nightwing or & Tim beating him for the title in the Next issue, which is find with me to because I Like Nightwing & Tim also as much as do Jason Todd

I see : Batman = Dick
Robin = Damien
Nightwing = Tim
Red Robin = Jason
when everything over.
10/10

[RonnieThunderbolts]

I give it a 7.5 out of 10. Jason Todd is not one of my favorite characters so this was ok. And what is considered a fatal injury these days!!!???? Tim had a baterang coming out through his stomach all the way from behind! If that doesn't kill you then i guess nothing can. I'm kinda tired of this extremely dramatic injuries that don't kill anybody. That just makes everybody Superman.

What? There was NO indication that the batarang went through his back. It wasn't a tiny injury, the placement below the rib cage makes it look like it is piercing into his stomach, but there is no image showing it as coming from behind.

[HopeLantern]

GM made me stop reading Batman/DC but TD just may bring me back. I love Jason Todd & I hope he stays as Batman ,but I think he will. I see Nightwing or & Tim beating him for the title in the Next issue, which is find with me to because I Like Nightwing & Tim also as much as do Jason Todd

I see : Batman = Dick
Robin = Damien
Nightwing = Tim
Red Robin = Jason
when everything over.
10/10

I've struggled with this myself, but after reading BFTC #2, I can't see how Jason is going to get back to being Red Robin, or even why he'd be accepted back into the Bat Family. I also agree with Captain Jim's earlier point that DC probably is not going to revive the "Nightwing" identity, since another Nightwing is over in the Superman books. Although at first, I was definitely a huge proponent of Tim being the Nightwing. Just not sure how that would work now, especially since there's been zero mention of any Nightwing in any solicitation post BFTC.

[4sake]

I've struggled with this myself, but after reading BFTC #2, I can't see how Jason is going to get back to being Red Robin, or even why he'd be accepted back into the Bat Family. I also agree with Captain Jim's earlier point that DC probably is not going to revive the "Nightwing" identity, since another Nightwing is over in the Superman books. Although at first, I was definitely a huge proponent of Tim being the Nightwing. Just not sure how that would work now, especially since there's been zero mention of any Nightwing in any solicitation post BFTC.

Those are very good points. I think he'll(Jason) keep doing what ever he wants (killing ppl he thinks need to be killed & etc) after BFTC even if he get beat by Dick & I don't think he really cares if he's accepted in the Bat Family at all right now. if Tim becomes Red Robin then I'll have to say Jason is either going to be dead/coma/ limbo or a Punisher like Batman & still wear a Bat suit & etc.

[Captain Jim]

What? There was NO indication that the batarang went through his back. It wasn't a tiny injury, the placement below the rib cage makes it look like it is piercing into his stomach, but there is no image showing it as coming from behind.

I think you're right, but I have to admit that my initial impression was that it had entered his body from the back. Even at that, though, it's still a nasty and potentially fatal wound.

[Ben Reilly#6]

Those are very good points. I think he'll(Jason) keep doing what ever he wants (killing ppl he thinks need to be killed & etc) after BFTC even if he get beat by Dick & I don't think he really cares if he's accepted in the Bat Family at all right now. if Tim becomes Red Robin then I'll have to say Jason is either going to be dead/coma/ limbo or a Punisher like Batman & still wear a Bat suit & etc.

I pretty much have to agree with this. Infact, I'm willing to bet the whole reason he decided to become a gun-wielding Batman in the first place is because he doesn't care anymore. Maybe something Bruce said on that pre-recorded message made him mad enough to stop "waiting around for permission" and get the job done no matter what.

[Captain Jim]

Maybe something Bruce said on that pre-recorded message made him mad enough to stop "waiting around for permission" and get the job done no matter what.

Daniels has implied that there is something behind this and that more will be revealed next issue.

[I am MODOK]

I found it to be pretty average. But Tony Daniel's art was pretty nice, I enjoyed it more than I usually do.

My review:
http://comicperday.blogspot.com/2009/04/battle-for-cowl-2.html

[Choppa]

When was Jason accepted back into the Bat-family? Did I miss something?

[Redrumbin]

When was Jason accepted back into the Bat-family? Did I miss something?

Well Tim kinda helped him get out of jail didn't he?

Anyhow, I don't care for Jason, I hope he dies. What I care about is... Where's Hush? Is he still emprisoned in the penthouse?

I thought BFTC2 was fine, not as good as the first one but still, I think it was just setting things up for BFTC3.

[HopeLantern]

There's still a lot of twists and turns leading into BFTC #3, that's for sure. Who knows... maybe it ends with Jason Todd getting inducted into the Red Lanterns. That'd be an unexpected ending.

[Sizzle]

Just got my comics for the month and I read this first. I thought the art was great, Tony has really stepped it up a notch.

There is a lot going on, but no suprises really.

I think Tim really got made into a jobber here. First tripping a trap, then getting stabbed by Jason. I'm not saying Tim should have won, etc, but the fight seemed pretty one sided to me.

Tim is not green at this point, he may not be the best figher in the lot, but he's surely up there in intelligence.

I also feel that Selina was brushed aside like she was nothing.

Oh well, we all know Jason will get his in the end.

Overall, looking forward to #3. I'd say I'm mostly looking forward to Tim's journey in Red Robin. The rest of this can't get over soon enough and have Bruce back as Batman.

[agentofthebat]

I dont know why everyone thinks there is going to be a nightwing after this. Nightwing is Dicks im not ready to be batman like Tims Red Robin. Or atlest thats what i hope. I only one person can be Nightwing. Bring back the Target!!!!!!