From Dark Victory to KnightFall...

[Harding Prime]

Alright, I want to break this down once and for all.

I'm just trying to get a good grip on the TPB continuity from Year One to KnightsFall. I just wanna get caught up on the past of my favorite character, and can never find a good definitive answer. Captain Jim, and others, I'm sure you can help me with this.

What I have so far is....

- Batman: Year One
- Batman and the Monster Men
- Batman and the Mad Monk
- Batman: The Man Who Laughs
- Batman: The Killing Joke
- Batman: The Haunted Knight
- Batman: The Long Halloween
- Batman: Dark Victory
- Catwoman: When in Rome

I want the missing links (in TPB form) from this time period to KnightFall. I want these missing peices and reimages of the first appearances of the rogue gallery. Everything after KnightFall is pretty self explanatory and beatin to death. This info seems to be more of a mystery, to me, at least.

Thanks for the help.

[Captain Jim]

This is always a bit difficult for me, since I don't buy these in trade format myself. And there's also the issue of what's in continutiy anymore and what isn't. I believe someone has linked to a site in the past that tries to do this very thing, but I didn't take note of it. Anyone?

As far as the list you have above, Killing Joke is defintely out of order and should come well after everything else you've listed.

[Harding Prime]

This is always a bit difficult for me, since I don't buy these in trade format myself. And there's also the issue of what's in continutiy anymore and what isn't. I believe someone has linked to a site in the past that tries to do this very thing, but I didn't take note of it. Anyone?

As far as the list you have above, Killing Joke is defintely out of order and should come well after everything else you've listed.

I realize that, but as his origin story, I just kinda throw that in there.

Like, is Robin: Year One in continuity, in the same vein as Dark Victory. The years get so compressed because of COIE that its hard to decipher. What's the origin story of Jason Todd and Nightwing? I wanna get the Cult and Death of a Family, but wanna know how Todd came to be first, (I know how he came to be, but wanna at least read it). After Death of a Family, it gets a little easier, but I don't have anything really before KnightFall, in comic book form at least. I have Son of Demon, which is now BACK into continuity, kinda, with a sweet retcon punch, yadda yadda yadda. It's just after RIP, I think this is a good oppurtunity to draw the timeline properly, and think we can work it out together. I want it in TPB so I can buy these things. :biggrin:

[Batman Examiner]

The problem is we are now in the era where TPB's are organized and help even out the timeline. This was not the case around the 80's so alot of TPBs you're looking for to fill in your graps simply don't exist. The ones that do (retellings) don't jive with the other stories because they weren't written in order.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

I realize that, but as his origin story, I just kinda throw that in there.


But the only origins in Killing Joke are told in flashback, and the main narrative has definite long lasting effects on characters who haven't even been introduced to the mythos by the time you've got it sitting.

[HopeLantern]

Like, is Robin: Year One in continuity, in the same vein as Dark Victory.

I thought the ancillary titles like Robin: Year One, and Nightwing: Year One were both in continuity. I would definitely add those to the list.

[BarryMikokinner]

Isn't Haunted Knight after Long Halloween?

[Retro315]

Alright, I want to break this down once and for all.

I'm just trying to get a good grip on the TPB continuity from Year One to KnightsFall. I just wanna get caught up on the past of my favorite character, and can never find a good definitive answer. Captain Jim, and others, I'm sure you can help me with this.

What I have so far is....

- Batman: Year One
- Batman and the Monster Men
- Batman and the Mad Monk
- Batman: The Man Who Laughs
- Batman: The Killing Joke
- Batman: The Haunted Knight
- Batman: The Long Halloween
- Batman: Dark Victory
- Catwoman: When in Rome

I want the missing links (in TPB form) from this time period to KnightFall. I want these missing peices and reimages of the first appearances of the rogue gallery. Everything after KnightFall is pretty self explanatory and beatin to death. This info seems to be more of a mystery, to me, at least.

Thanks for the help.

I'm glad you limited it just from Dark Victory to Knightfall, (effectively splitting "continuity" in half. Morrison gives us the free excuse to just consider all the pre-Crisis stuff as "Black Casebook Mysteries" or as fitting into certain eras, and everything works out.).

The main thing I can think of recently to contribute is Batman: Snow. As far as I know it takes place between The Long Halloween and Dark Victory, which makes sense enough for the new Mr. Freeze origin story (since Freeze was a major heavy for Two-Face's hired freaks in Dark Victory).

Of course really, Snow could've happened in any one of the 13 months of Long Halloween following the first issue, but at any rate for listing purposes, you can mark it "between".

[pressdarlings]

Alright, I want to break this down once and for all.

I'm just trying to get a good grip on the TPB continuity from Year One to KnightsFall. I just wanna get caught up on the past of my favorite character, and can never find a good definitive answer. Captain Jim, and others, I'm sure you can help me with this.

What I have so far is....

- Batman: Year One
- Batman and the Monster Men
- Batman and the Mad Monk
- Batman: The Man Who Laughs
- Batman: The Killing Joke
- Batman: The Haunted Knight
- Batman: The Long Halloween
- Batman: Dark Victory
- Catwoman: When in Rome

I want the missing links (in TPB form) from this time period to KnightFall. I want these missing peices and reimages of the first appearances of the rogue gallery. Everything after KnightFall is pretty self explanatory and beatin to death. This info seems to be more of a mystery, to me, at least.

Thanks for the help.

Don't forget Catwoman: Sister's Keeper right after Year One.

Batman: Gauntlet
Robin: Year One
Batman: Grendel
Batgirl: Year One
Batman Confidential #17-21
Batman 408-412
Nightwing: Year One
Batman 414, 421, 422
Huntress: Year One
The Killing Joke
Batman: The Cult
Oracle: Year One (from Batman Chronicles 5)
Batman 424-425
Batman: Death in the Family
Batman: Blind Justice
etc.

[CocktailXYZ]

Like, is Robin: Year One in continuity

I would include it.

What's the origin story of Jason Todd and Nightwing?

Nightwing: Year One covers Nightwing, and it does at least provide a third person introduction of Todd. The firsthand origin of Todd in current continuity (Batman #408-411) hasn't been collected in trade format as far as I know, but you could probably get by with the Nightwing trade to serve as Todd's introduction in a condensed TPB continuity.

From what I can gather, the important trades from Dark Victory to Knightfall are:

Dark Victory
Catwoman: When in Rome
The Gauntlet
Robin: Year One
Tales of the Demon (technically pre-crisis, yet still in continuity from what I gather)
Batgirl: Year One
Nightwing: Year One
The Killing Joke
The Cult
A Death in the Family
Blind Justice
Birth of the Demon
Son of the Demon
A Lonely Place of Dying
Bride of the Demon
Robin: A Hero Reborn
Sword of Azrael
Knightfall

[carabas]

Robin Year One and Dark Victory don't quite match up, do they?

Is it just me, did TLH, DV and those three Legends Of The Dark Knight Halloween Specials (aka Haunted Knight) only added to canon after Hush came out and referenced them?

[CocktailXYZ]

Robin Year One and Dark Victory don't quite match up, do they?

I might need to do some rereading, but I thought the two were fine together. Maybe someone can remind me where the clash occurs?

The only thing I can remember is that in Year One, Robin comments on how "Zucco is dead" when he was instead imprisoned. It's an easy to overlook line that I've even seen retconned to being Robin's personal view that the crime boss was as good as dead.

[Sn4tcH]

http://www.thebatsquad.net/continuity/index.html

Here's a good place to look. It's a DC timeline that's centered around Batman. It's mostly TPBs and important storylines that are uncollected.

Also, (shameless plug) check out the Project Batmite76 link in my sig. It's divided mostly by individual issues, but Batmite76 tried to keep storylines that were collected together.

[Mat001]

Robin Year One and Dark Victory don't quite match up, do they?

Is it just me, did TLH, DV and those three Legends Of The Dark Knight Halloween Specials (aka Haunted Knight) only added to canon after Hush came out and referenced them?

Partially, but also because they sold twice what "Robin: Year One" sold. So it was only a matter of time before that happened. In fact, before "Dark Victory" was finished, people were starting to place Loeb and Sale's books in continuity. It was after "Hush", that DC began to place it in.

[Harding Prime]

http://www.thebatsquad.net/continuity/index.html

Here's a good place to look. It's a DC timeline that's centered around Batman. It's mostly TPBs and important storylines that are uncollected.

Also, (shameless plug) check out the Project Batmite76 link in my sig. It's divided mostly by individual issues, but Batmite76 tried to keep storylines that were collected together.

Wow, section One of Beginnings is exactly where my list ends with Catwoman: When in Rome.

A lot of good info, hopefully this will pick up and we can all have a little more knowledge, because out of everyone in the DCU after COIE, Batman has the most complex backstory to decipher.

[Harding Prime]

So is Snow the retelling of Mr. Freeze's origin?

[Sn4tcH]

As far as I know Snow isn't in continuity, if you're worried about that at all.

[Harding Prime]

As far as I know Snow isn't in continuity, if you're worried about that at all.


Well, that is what I am trying to run through. Why would they put it in the main Bat book just what, 2 years ago... if its a pointless story.

Batgirl Year One and Dark Victory don't match up very well. He is Commissioner Gordon in Dark Victory, with the first appearance of Robin, but Captain Gordon in Batgirl, though Robin is already established. And Gordon is annoyed by Batman(?) in Batgirl, that seems a bit off. Aaghh.:rolleyes:

[Mat001]

So is Snow the retelling of Mr. Freeze's origin?

"Snow" is from Legends Of The Dark Knight. Not all stories from that series were put in continuity. They only were if the writers chose to. O'Neil chose to put "Shaman" in continuity because the backstory elements resurfaced in the Bat books, after it came out. Likewise, "Venom" was brought in by Dixon and Monech when they created Bane. In fact, it was their idea to follow up on that story. When Monech was writing Batman, he included "Prey" in an in-direct fashion. Since then, we've had "Batman & The Monster Men" which is considered in-continuity. "Snow" isn't since the Mr. Freeze one-shot was refered to in the pages of Batgirl, when they followed up on the origin there. The Halloween books by Loeb and Sale were LOTDK specials and not meant to be part of the lore. But their popularity lead to it being included and Loeb couldn't help but reference it in "Hush".

[Sn4tcH]

Batgirl Year One and Dark Victory don't match up very well. He is Commissioner Gordon in Dark Victory, with the first appearance of Robin, but Captain Gordon in Batgirl, though Robin is already established. And Gordon is annoyed by Batman(?) in Batgirl, that seems a bit off. Aaghh.:rolleyes:

There are a couple things you need to ignore with Batman continuity. Gordons rank, first use of the bat signal, and first uses of vehicles and gadgets and stuff. In fact, I can think of three stories off the top of my head that were the first use of the bat signal.

[CocktailXYZ]

There are a couple things you need to ignore with Batman continuity. Gordons rank, first use of the bat signal, and first uses of vehicles and gadgets and stuff.

Agreed. You have to be willing to overlook these kinds of minor details or else you'll be excluding a lot of the "early year" material to make things fit. You'd probably have a near impossible time piecing together more than one origin story that didn't fault on timeline with any of Sn4tcH's above list.

As an example of this sort of thing in your current trade list, Batman: Year One ends with Gordon bringing up the Joker, yet you've inserted the Monster Men and Mad Monk before Man Who Laughs. I personally agree with this insertion, but to make it "fit", you have to overlook or explain away the panel mentioning the Joker in Year One to make it "fit".

2nd Edit: Another resource that might be handy, especially in your case of desiring to stick to trades, would be here:
www.batmantrades.com

Although, from a quick glace, it may not be exactly what you're looking for in terms of continuity - I'm seeing Batman: Snow listed, for starters.

Batman continuity is a beast, especially identifying what is and isn't supposed to be "canon". In the end, you've either got to decide to make compromises now and then, or else lock out a lot of material.

It gets especially confusing with Morrison's take that everything from Golden Age to present has taken place, either in reality or dream.

[Harding Prime]

Agreed. You have to be willing to overlook these kinds of minor details or else you'll be excluding a lot of the "early year" material to make things fit. You'd probably have a near impossible time piecing together more than one origin story that didn't fault on timeline with any of Sn4tcH's above list.

As an example of this sort of thing in your current trade list, Batman: Year One ends with Gordon bringing up the Joker, yet you've inserted the Monster Men and Mad Monk before Man Who Laughs. I personally agree with this insertion, but to make it "fit", you have to overlook or explain away the panel mentioning the Joker in Year One to make it "fit".

2nd Edit: Another resource that might be handy, especially in your case of desiring to stick to trades, would be here:
www.batmantrades.com

Although, from a quick glace, it may not be exactly what you're looking for in terms of continuity - I'm seeing Batman: Snow listed, for starters.

Batman continuity is a beast, especially identifying what is and isn't supposed to be "canon". In the end, you've either got to decide to make compromises now and then, or else lock out a lot of material.

It gets especially confusing with Morrison's take that everything from Golden Age to present has taken place, either in reality or dream.

Morrison's view on everything happening in some light or another doesn't bother me too much, I kinda like it. With his take on the tunnel vision of the multiverse and to the point that this all happens somewhere, even in our reality, like explained in All-Star Superman and Superman: Beyond. Actually, along with Dini naming the last of his collected issues Private Casebook, Morrison and gang are releasing Black Casebook Files in TPB. It will include many of the reference points Morrison had, including his The thing that ticked me off about Morrison is adding Son of Demon back into continuity (which is a great story, I remember reading it when I was like 10), but not F'n reading it before doing Batman & Son, and it being his entire basis of the story, and completely getting it wrong.

So, what I'm looking at getting after the list I started is:

Robin: Year One
Strange Appirations
Batgirl: Year One
Nightwing: Year One
Batman: The Cult
Death in the Family
A Lonely Place to Die
Robin: Hero Reborn

What Else?

Robin: Year One

[Harding Prime]

Has DC said where Batman Confidential is being placed??

It's been some good story telling and they've been doing resonably well, obviously better then Superman: Confidential. Is it making its own place in continuity?

[CocktailXYZ]

From what I understand, Confidential falls in with how Legends of the Dark Knight was handled. The stories may or may not be part of continuity, and the majority place early in Batman's career, but there are exceptions. That coupled with the distinct lack of Robin would have me tentatively place most of them prior to Dark Victory.

I think sn4tch had placed "Rules of Engagement" (#1-6) somewhere early in continuity, but exactly where escapes me at the moment.

"Lovers & Madmen" (#7-12) is a non-continuity Joker origin story iirc.

"Wrath Child" (#13-16) occurs five years after Dick was newly appointed Robin, so this shifts it out probably closer to, or else, after Knightfall.

"The Bat & the Cat" (#17-21) would obviously need to follow Batgirl: Year One

"Do You Understand These Rights?" (#22-25) is easy to place after the Man Who Laughs, since it involves the Joker's first imprisonment.

"A New Dawn" (#26-28) could probably be placed anywhere of your choosing before Dark Victory.