Steve Englehart: Sal Buscema Appreciation Thread [Archive]

Paiute 1

04-06-2009, 12:17 PM

When I first started being serious about collecting comics these guys were the art team.
From issue 153-181 with the one fill in by Weiss they were what hooked me on comic books.
I read somewhere that Stan Lee didn't know what to do with the book and was even considering canceling it, so he gave it to a young up and coming writer.
Well Englehart took it and ran with it.
He retconed why there was a Captain America and Bucky in the fifty's, something Stan had seemed to forget, and realy made it one of Marvels best sellers again.
This was Sal at his best IMO, he looked more like his big brother and turned in great pencils no matter who inked him, but realy looked sharp with Frank McLaughlin, heck even Verpoorton, and Colletta looked good over Sal.
Sadly Sal left and we got the "great Frank Robbins" and after running out of steam, Steve left for greener pastures.
All in all one of the great runs in Marvel history.

hondobrode

04-06-2009, 10:44 PM

I love most of Englehart's stuff. He's a really great writer.

Sal - I love his stuff too. Grew up reading his Cap, Hulk, Spidey. Really love some of that.

pakehafulla

04-07-2009, 03:41 AM

Well this thread is just tailor made for me. The 50's Cap story ( 153-156 ) is probably THE stand-out story of my childhood, so that even 30 or so years later it has stuck in my mind as an all time favourite. I know that by todays standards Sal Buscema is seen as a bit of an average artist but his depictions of Cap, The Hulk, and even Spider-man have always been my ideals. I admit that others do draw better but Sal will always be THE MAN to me.
And as for Mr Englehart, well I think he was outstanding. We got away from Stans overdramatics, and got a look into the head of the Legend as rarely happened in his own book. Its a pity this was followed by Jack Kirby's awful writing, if only the King had been illustrating Steves stories, and then an even more dreadful period til John Byrne showed up.

berk

04-07-2009, 11:19 AM

I'm a big Englehart fan, especially from that earl-mid 70s era, but for some reason I missed out on his famous CA run. If Marvel ever collects it in colour at a reasonable price I'd like to give it a look some day.

dan bailey

04-07-2009, 11:25 AM

The second half, pretty much, of his run has been collected in color -- see the Secret Empire (ishes 169-176) & Nomad (177-186) TPBs from a couple of years ago.

scratchie

04-07-2009, 12:00 PM

The second half, pretty much, of his run has been collected in color -- see the Secret Empire (ishes 169-176) & Nomad (177-186) TPBs from a couple of years ago.

It could be argued whether $45 (list price) is reasonable, though. Plus, that doesn't even include the 50s Cap story, which is probably the high point of this run. Plus, the coloring sucks. (I own both volumes though).

Also, Sal Buscema rules. 'Nuff said.

dan bailey

04-07-2009, 12:34 PM

My god, does the Nomad trade really list for $24.99? That's scandalous.

I have no idea what I paid when I bought mine (I own the Secret Empire volume, too ... of course, I now have the contents of both in Essential format as well), but I'd be astonished if it was anywhere near that. Amazon or Books-a-Million must've been applying a really nice discount at the time.

(Lone Star is offering it for $12.50 at the moment, I see.)

Roquefort Raider

04-07-2009, 02:44 PM

Englehart and Buscema produced what I see as the definitive Cap (but I admit that I read their run at just the right age). Their work on the Avengers was also excellent, and the origin of the Vision thing was a fine exmple of a well-conceived retcon.

They do have a clunker, though: their taking over of Skull the Slayer! After a fine Burroughsian start, that series spiraled out of control like a straw in a hurricane as soon as they came onboard!

Paiute 1

04-13-2009, 11:22 AM

Thier Defenders run was very memorial also.

Wein and Gerber were okay but not as good as the original premiss.

Reptisaurus!

04-13-2009, 04:41 PM

Englehart and Buscema produced what I see as the definitive Cap (but I admit that I read their run at just the right age).

Me too, apparently. (The right age in my case was, like. 25.)

Red Oak Kid

04-14-2009, 11:07 AM

Never thought of it before, but, yeah, my Cap is the Englehart/Sal Buscema version. They were the creative team when I was buying it off the stands.

I've read the Lee/Kirby Silver age Cap and the Kirby/Kirby Cap but those versions were kind of one dimensional.

When I think of the Cap comic book I think of Romita covers and Sal Buscema interior art.

And the Falcon.

I would say that is Sal's best work.

Paiute 1

04-23-2009, 02:03 PM

I wish Sal would have contiued to do full pencils the next few years.

He started doing layouts on his other assignments and usually got stuck with a not so good embellisher

edhopper

04-26-2009, 07:34 AM

The great thing about Sal (which is sorely absent in many of today's pencilers) is that he could tell a story.
His panels moved effortlessly from one to the other. The reader never had to stop and reread a page to figure out what was happening (but maybe to admire the artwork).
I also want to note how he reinvented his style to do his...well.... spectacular run on Spectacular Spider-Man.
His art on that title was as vibrant as any of the young turks working at that time.
I second the desire to see some new pencils.

Gothos

04-27-2009, 06:54 AM

Frankly, I think Sal was a better storyteller than his brother John.

Buscema had a better sense of anatomy, and he could pose figures dramatically like no one's business. Reportedly he would much rather have been a book illustrator than a comic book artist. SB didn't spend so much time making pretty figures, but his layouts were much clearer and had better panel-to-panel flow.

spoon_jenkins

04-28-2009, 09:37 AM

I have read the first three volumes of Essential Captain American. The last volume ends with the 1950s Cap (the very beginning of the Englehart|Buscema run). I think that story arc may be my favorite Cap story up to that point. I plan to start Essential vol.4 today, so I may post some of my impressions of the run in the near future.

Ziggy Stardust

04-28-2009, 01:52 PM

Buscema/Chan were doing Hulk when I bought my first issues. Still my fave depiction of the Jade Giant.

Ziggy Stardust

04-29-2009, 06:53 AM

Prime example

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/3533/image1w.jpg (http://img91.imageshack.us/my.php?image=image1w.jpg)

edhopper

04-29-2009, 07:32 AM

I always thought Chan's ink's where a bit heavy handed for Sal's pencils (hated them on Johns work in Conan), but that panel looks pretty good.

David Walton

04-29-2009, 08:52 AM

Sal Buscema is arguably my favorite Spider-Man artist, depending on my shifting moods. One thing I've noticed about Sal, and this is applicable to his Cap work, too, is he's simply fantastic at bringing twisted rage to life. This is not easy to do in a medium where we kind of take fantastic threats for granted.

When his 50s Cap is pissed, it's scary pissed. His eyes leap off the page and haunt your soul. You believe that guy could genuinely screw with Cap in ways you don't want to know.

When his heroes and villains fight, it doesn't come across as business as usual. There's a real threat that's often lacking in superhero comics. When people get punched, it looks like it hurts.

But he's also got fantastic range. He can go from twisted rage to pathos in a moment. When 50s Cap realizes he has been fighting the original Captain America, when Harry Osborn looks across the dinner table at his wife without the Green Goblin mask, there's this range of emotion that's unsettling.

As for Englehart, he's walked where angels fear to tread. He successfully mixed superheroes and political metaphor without losing sight of storytelling. His 50s Cap story doesn't lose anything as a story because you weren't born into that context. I wasn't even alive during the Nixon years, but the story holds up on its own with or without the history. Certainly the context adds depth but it's just a brilliant story with or without. It's a Captain America story, not a Nixon story.

I had the privilege to interview Englehart for an essay I did on Captain America that's in a book by McFarland Press entitled "Captain America and the Struggle of the Superhero: Critical Essays." I can tell you that Mr. Englehart is not only a genius he's also a very nice guy. He was very gracious with his time and indulged my most obnoxious questions. Great guy all around!

Paiute 1

04-29-2009, 12:29 PM

I always thought Chan's ink's where a bit heavy handed for Sal's pencils (hated them on Johns work in Conan), but that panel looks pretty good.

Agreed, wish Rubinstein would have lasted longer.

Chan was still better than Esposito till Sal started inking his own pencils.

benday-dot

04-29-2009, 06:35 PM

Sal Buscema is arguably my favorite Spider-Man artist, depending on my shifting moods. One thing I've noticed about Sal, and this is applicable to his Cap work, too, is he's simply fantastic at bringing twisted rage to life. This is not easy to do in a medium where we kind of take fantastic threats for granted.

Good observation. To me this is both SB's blessing and curse. Yes he can really convert that pencil into such terrible rage. Yet, sometimes it looks to me that his characters look as if they are just a bit too pissed for the given situation. Maybe just a little more anger is depicted than might be called for. At times it seems as though he was trying a bit too hard to capture a Kirby look (in tone more than any copy job).

Kirby excelled at depicting the emotions of his characters, even if the scenario was just a sequence of dialogue. His always dramatically changing sense of perspectives and his characters accompanying facial expressions were always spot on. Sal seemed to want to capture this sort of look and movement, but perhaps it was his thinner line or looser pencils (except when tightened up by a great inker), but too often the result appeared a little too much or too little IMO. I appreciate SB, and I have loads of his work to savour in my collection, his work just doesn't excite me as much as perhaps others of his contemporaries.

David Walton

04-30-2009, 10:30 AM

Good observation. To me this is both SB's blessing and curse. Yes he can really convert that pencil into such terrible rage. Yet, sometimes it looks to me that his characters look as if they are just a bit too pissed for the given situation. Maybe just a little more anger is depicted than might be called for. At times it seems as though he was trying a bit too hard to capture a Kirby look (in tone more than any copy job).

I haven't really noticed where this becomes a flaw in his work, but I'm agreed in principle that every artistic strength usually has a flipside. I'm really only familiar with his Cap work and his Spider-Man. And he just nailed the whole Green Goblin arc with DeMatteis beautifully.

I appreciate SB, and I have loads of his work to savour in my collection, his work just doesn't excite me as much as perhaps others of his contemporaries.

I can see that, but for my own part, I find him to be one of the best artists of his time on the strength of his Spectacular Spider-Man run alone. But as I said, I'm not familiar with a lot of his other work.

Ziggy Stardust

04-30-2009, 11:22 AM

SB drawing a very wide range of emotions in just 3 pages.... for a character normally only known for one emotional state, might I add.

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/6004/63937336.th.jpg (http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=63937336.jpg)

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/7448/44178902.jpg (http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=44178902.jpg)

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/7770/99894245.jpg (http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=99894245.jpg)

spoon_jenkins

04-30-2009, 01:39 PM

Since this thread appears to be discussing Englehart and Sal Buscema separately - not just their work together, I gotta mention that Englehart's 1980s run on Green Lantern (mostly with Joe Staton) is one of all-time favorite comic runs.

benday-dot

04-30-2009, 06:42 PM

SB drawing a very wide range of emotions in just 3 pages.... for a character normally only known for one emotional state, might I add.

Those are nice panels. I didn't mean to dump on Sal. I have affection for a lot of the comics he drew. I grew up on his stuff as a big 70's Marvel fan. His work on Defenders and the Hulk represents my favourite of SB's output, preferring it the art on Spidey . Joe Staton, Tom Palmer, Ernie Chan, Pablo Marcos and Klaus Janson really helped complement Sal's pencils the best I always felt, more so that of Esposito, Colletta or Giacoia.

spoon_jenkins

04-30-2009, 09:02 PM

His work on Defenders and the Hulk represents my favourite of SB's output, preferring it the art on Spidey . Joe Staton, Tom Palmer, Ernie Chan, Pablo Marcos and Klaus Janson really helped complement Sal's pencils the best I always felt, more so that of Esposito, Colletta or Giacoia.
My opinion of Sal Buscema varies widely depending on the particular issue. A lot of that is probably due to inkers. But some of that is due to some other factor (evolution of his style or perhaps how much time he had). I say that sometimes I really enjoy him inking himself (I really like the early issues in his late 1980s return to Spectacular Spider-Man), but there are other examples of him inking himself (certain issues of Hulk) that I don't like as much.

berk

05-01-2009, 12:49 AM

Paiute 1

05-01-2009, 02:59 AM

I believe it was #207

Ziggy Stardust

05-01-2009, 06:25 AM

http://www.comics.org/coverview.lasso?id=30670&zoom=4

David Walton

05-01-2009, 07:02 AM

When he's at the top of his game, few can compare with Sal IMO.

berk

05-01-2009, 11:49 AM

I believe it was #207Oh, of course. I'd stopped reading the series years before then. The Sal Buscema art looks just like the Defenders work he did with Gerber, but I've read the entire Gerber run, so i knew it wasn't from there. Nice, though.

I always thought of Sal Buscema as Mr. Reliable, back then. He might not have been my favourite artist, but he was totally solid. If he was doing a series or filling in for someone, you knew at the very least that the art wasn't going to suck, that it wouldn't spoil your enjoyment of the story. And most of the time it enhanced that enjoyment significantly.

prince hal

05-01-2009, 02:33 PM

David Walton

05-01-2009, 03:29 PM

Okay to comment just on Engelhart?

I will never forget him for how he revived Batman. His and the Rogers/Austin team's six or so Detective Comics were a ray of hope in the abyss that was late 70s DC Comics.

Englehart found that perfect balance between the "Dark" and the "Knight." His Batman is driven, not obsessed. Dark, but not oppresively so.

Paiute 1

05-01-2009, 05:05 PM

Okay to comment just on Engelhart?

I will never forget him for how he revived Batman. His and the Rogers/Austin team's six or so Detective Comics were a ray of hope in the abyss that was late 70s DC Comics.

Everything Englehart touched for awile was gold.

I would go so far to say he was the Rucka,Morrison,or Ellis (who I personaly don't like) of his time.

prince hal

05-01-2009, 07:20 PM

I honestly don't remember his JLA run as vividly as I do that Batman arc, except for what I thought was the fun he had with the secret secret origin of the League, involving most of DC's fifties heroes.

And just to go back to the Detective stories, you're right, Theo; he seemed to take just the right amounts of the best of every Batman incarnation and mixed them together to perfection.

Rob Allen

05-04-2009, 12:04 PM

benday-dot

05-04-2009, 08:20 PM

Steve Englehart was an artist before he switched to writing full-time. That may be one of the reasons his stories worked so well - he really knew the art form of comics.

One of the oddities in my collection is a Skywald magazine that includes a sword & sorcery story written by Gardner Fox and drawn by Steve Englehart. The past & future JLA writers, together! From this story, I think Steve could have had a career as an artist if he'd chosen to.

Quite a few once-were artists in the comic book world seemed to have either finally found their calling as writers or at least given a good shot at crossing over to that side of the business. Besides Englehart, there was Allan Moore (briefly), Keith Giffen, Mike Grell, Mike Mignola, Frank Milller, John Byrne, Dave Gibbons and many more that fail to pop into my head right now.

While there are also those virtuosos that write and draw their own material (including many already listed above, and lots of guys in the independent scene); how many guys started out as writers and then decided they liked the penciling or inking duties better? That is how many made a more or less lasting switch from writer to artist? I can't think of any.

Ziggy Stardust

05-05-2009, 06:03 AM

Quite a few once-were artists in the comic book world seemed to have either finally found their calling as writers or at least given a good shot at crossing over to that side of the business. Besides Englehart, there was Allan Moore (briefly), Keith Giffen, Mike Grell, Mike Mignola, Frank Milller, John Byrne, Dave Gibbons and many more that fail to pop into my head right now.

While there are also those virtuosos that write and draw their own material (including many already listed above, and lots of guys in the independent scene); how many guys started out as writers and then decided they liked the penciling or inking duties better? That is how many made a more or less lasting switch from writer to artist? I can't think of any.

Perez did an alright Wonder Woman book.

Paiute 1

05-05-2009, 03:42 PM

I can honestly say Englehart was the first Writer I bought books just for the writing.

dan bailey

05-05-2009, 03:52 PM

While there are also those virtuosos that write and draw their own material (including many already listed above, and lots of guys in the independent scene); how many guys started out as writers and then decided they liked the penciling or inking duties better? That is how many made a more or less lasting switch from writer to artist? I can't think of any.

Frank Robbins sort of had it both ways -- from artist to writer & then back to artist, I guess. I would've first encountered his name (not, as a pre-adolescent reader, that I would've been paying any attention to the credits, I'm sure) as a Batman writer, though of course by that time he'd already been an artist for decades. (I assume he was drawing his newspaper strip, "Johnny Hazard," during his DC writing tenure, but I don't really know anything about that aspect of his career.) A few years after that he was back doing strictly art, as far as I know.

Reptisaurus!

05-05-2009, 07:04 PM

spoon_jenkins

05-12-2009, 06:42 PM

I'm continuing through Essential Captain America vol. 4 and I just finished the Secret Empire storyline. Pretty good, although the return of the 1950s Cap is still by favorite Englehart/Buscema Cap story thus far. I like how Englehart is continued to draw on the past threads like bringing back Peggy Carter. Originally, the resemblance between Sharon and Cap's WWII girlfriend was remarked upon but never followed up on. And Englehart makes Falcon's girlfriend Leila somewhat likable, whereas previously she's basically a pain.

I will never forget him for how he revived Batman. His and the Rogers/Austin team's six or so Detective Comics were a ray of hope in the abyss that was late 70s DC Comics.
I wonder if I would have enjoyed that run more if I was around reading comics at the time. (I was born in 1979.) I think Englehart's Detective stint is nice, but I don't feel the great enthusiasm for it that so many other people do. And I'm someone who loves his Green Lantern work and loves all his 1970s Marvel work I'm reading now.

prince hal

05-12-2009, 09:09 PM

I wonder if I would have enjoyed that run more if I was around reading comics at the time. (I was born in 1979.) I think Englehart's Detective stint is nice, but I don't feel the great enthusiasm for it that so many other people do. And I'm someone who loves his Green Lantern work and loves all his 1970s Marvel work I'm reading now.

I'd have to say yes; it was so different, and such a refreshing blend of old and new, that for Batman fans, it was as bracing as the new look form the mid 60s and the changes wrought by Neal Adams a decade earlier. Unfortunately much of what Engelhart and Rogers set up was not followed up on and it was really more of an oasis than anything else.

David Walton

05-13-2009, 06:42 AM

And just to go back to the Detective stories, you're right, Theo; he seemed to take just the right amounts of the best of every Batman incarnation and mixed them together to perfection.

His Batman work is incredible. I'm amazed by how quickly DC dropped that interpretation. They've been struggling at various periods to get back to the Englehart approach but Frank Miller keeps getting in the way. Englehart's Batman, unlike Miller's, is a genuine hero who works from altruism rather than ego. Committed, not obsessed, and the comraderie between him and Dick Grayson is wonderful.

You can generally carry a story with excellent characterization or concepts alone. Englehart has both!

Statistically it's amazing just how short Englehart's run was and yet how many of his stories made it into "Best Of" collections...and later the concepts were utilized in B:TAS.

How many of those stories made their way into the cartoon, prince hal? I don't rememeber off the top of my head.

Paiute 1

05-13-2009, 11:14 AM

His Batman work is incredible. I'm amazed by how quickly DC dropped that interpretation. They've been struggling at various periods to get back to the Englehart approach but Frank Miller keeps getting in the way. Englehart's Batman, unlike Miller's, is a genuine hero who works from altruism rather than ego. Committed, not obsessed, and the comraderie between him and Dick Grayson is wonderful.

You can generally carry a story with excellent characterization or concepts alone. Englehart has both!

Statistically it's amazing just how short Englehart's run was and yet how many of his stories made it into "Best Of" collections...and later the concepts were utilized in B:TAS.

How many of those stories made their way into the cartoon, prince hal? I don't rememeber off the top of my head.

Characterization; you hit the nail on the head. I think if not anything else that is what "Stainless Steve" will be remembered for.

Mr. Palmer

05-13-2009, 06:02 PM

Sal is DUH MAN. I absolutely love his artwork; especially on the Hulk.

I always liked how he drew feet and hands...

berk

05-14-2009, 12:27 AM

Anyone here read Englehart's novel, The Point Man? I think it came out in the early 80s, or at least that's when I read it. I thought it was pretty good. anyway, apparently there's a sequel in the works called The Long Man, which is supposed to come out next year. I think they're re-publishing Point Man as well, if anyone wants to (re)read it first. I'm looking forward to it, myself.

websbestcomics

05-14-2009, 07:34 AM

I'm on his mailing list and he writes about it frequently, it sounds pretty interesting.

Paiute 1

05-15-2009, 10:08 AM

Sal is DUH MAN. I absolutely love his artwork; especially on the Hulk.

I always liked how he drew feet and hands...

Oh yeah, Captain America #154; Sharon Carter in a two piece; nuff said!!

Herr Mike

05-16-2009, 09:59 AM

Engelhart's website is a hoot, the dude definitely has an ego. I'm not saying he's wrong on anything, but man. He is certainly willing to give himself credit where credit is due...

I am a big fan of his stuff though, for sure. Even his FF, which at least was different.

I always forget how much I like Sal Buscema, until I open a comic he did. Class act. John is probably my all-time favorite comic artist but Sal was also incredible. His later Hulk work, Thor with Simonson, and of course Spectacular Spider-Man are stand-out runs.

Holdyourfireal

05-24-2009, 11:55 AM

Sal is DUH MAN. I absolutely love his artwork; especially on the Hulk.

I always liked how he drew feet and hands...

I discovered Sal through The Incredible Hulk & Captain America! There was nothing like being a kid, collecting your favorite two comics each month, and your favorite artist drawing both! I'll always remember the day I read The Incredible Hulk #231. There was a blurb at the bottom with a Sal drawn Hulk vs. Cap, announcing next month's crossover in Cap 230 & Hulk 232! AWESOME!