Okay. I get Killer Croc...

[[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite]

...but is there any reason why Damien would be cowering in front of grunts?

[Batman Examiner]

For all the training maybe he's just a scared little boy. Or OOC writing. Not sure.

[nepenthes]

it's the same reason Oracle is shooting young girls out of cars and Tim Drake is spending hours on "detective work" before even guessing that the new Batman might be Jason Todd. the reason is called Tony "this city is evil" Daniels

[AJM]

I'm glad i'm not the only one who doesn't like Battle For The Cowl. I really can't understand the fawning adulation it's been receiving, it's just another mediocre fill-in story to me.

[Captain Jim]

You can dislike it all you want but, as I've mentioned before, it doesn't fit the definition of "fill-in".

[nepenthes]

It's an event mini that feels like a fill-in, unfortunately

[carabas]

I think it fits the definition of fill-in to a tee.

Second rate (at best) writer, bad characterisation, exists solely to move characters in place so the real writers don't have to bother with that, and it is very unlikely that something will happen in it that will have any real consequences for future storylines.

[Samy]

I don't think two of those are the definition of a fill-in.

Most importantly, a fill-in does NOT exist to move characters in place. A fill-in is exactly the OPPOSITE. It's a story that's meant to NOT alter the status quo in any way because it's just plugging a month's hole while the MAIN story around the fill-in does all the forward progression. If fill-ins also had forward progression, they'd screw up the main story, hence fill-ins have always been inconsequential exactly because they can't move characters forward.

Secondly, bad characterization, while it may occur in fill-ins just as it can occur in regular stories, is by no means a requirement for a fill-in story.

It's also arguable that second-rate talent is possibly also not part of the definition. While fill-ins are, true, often given to lower tier creative talent, it is not unheard of for A-list talent to do fill-ins. For example, Gail Simone wrote a Teen Titans fill-in.

The definition of a fill-in is a story that's marking time for an issue or three while the main story's creators are slow. That's it. Bad characterization and second rate talent *may* occur in them but certainly do not *have* to and are not part of the definition. And moving characters forward is absolutely not part of the definition because that's the complete opposite of a fill-in.

[AJM]

I know what a fill-in is - i was being derogatory.

Besides, from what i hear, this was all DC's idea and nothing at all to do with Morrison's plans for Batman. Supposedly, he wanted to jump straight into Batman & Robin after RIP and Final Crisis, but DC decided to pad it all out into this big event cash-cow with pointless tie-ins and all the trimmings. So in a way it is a bit of a fill-in.

[Choppa]

I don't think two of those are the definition of a fill-in.

Most importantly, a fill-in does NOT exist to move characters in place. A fill-in is exactly the OPPOSITE. It's a story that's meant to NOT alter the status quo in any way because it's just plugging a month's hole while the MAIN story around the fill-in does all the forward progression. If fill-ins also had forward progression, they'd screw up the main story, hence fill-ins have always been inconsequential exactly because they can't move characters forward.


BftC is just filling in the time between RIP/FC and the return of Batman and 'Tec so that when they start the new status quo, the characters are already in place.

For example, Dick wasn't Batman when the book went on vacation, but (presumably) he will be when it returns. How that happens should be explained in BftC.

[celticguy]

You can dislike it all you want but, as I've mentioned before, it doesn't fit the definition of "fill-in".

well it is a bridge between the runs of the book.

[Lorendiac]

I don't think two of those are the definition of a fill-in.

Most importantly, a fill-in does NOT exist to move characters in place. A fill-in is exactly the OPPOSITE. It's a story that's meant to NOT alter the status quo in any way because it's just plugging a month's hole while the MAIN story around the fill-in does all the forward progression. If fill-ins also had forward progression, they'd screw up the main story, hence fill-ins have always been inconsequential exactly because they can't move characters forward.

Secondly, bad characterization, while it may occur in fill-ins just as it can occur in regular stories, is by no means a requirement for a fill-in story.

It's also arguable that second-rate talent is possibly also not part of the definition. While fill-ins are, true, often given to lower tier creative talent, it is not unheard of for A-list talent to do fill-ins. For example, Gail Simone wrote a Teen Titans fill-in.

The definition of a fill-in is a story that's marking time for an issue or three while the main story's creators are slow. That's it. Bad characterization and second rate talent *may* occur in them but certainly do not *have* to and are not part of the definition. And moving characters forward is absolutely not part of the definition because that's the complete opposite of a fill-in.


I tend to agree with all that. After all, award-winning SF author Harlan Ellison wrote a single-issue Batman story in the mid-1980s. It didn't try to perpetrate any "significant change" in the lives of any established characters -- such as chopping off a villain's arms and legs, or killing a Robin, or anything like that; it was just Batman prowling around the dark streets of Gotham all night looking for crimes to fight, and finding precious few. (At one point he was so desperate that he started scolding a man for littering by dropping a candy wrapper on the sidewalk!) The same story could have been published ten years earlier or twenty years later, and it would have worked just as well!

So it was definitely a "fill-in" which easily could have been published at virtually any time in Batman's career -- but that didn't mean the writer was some second-rate or third-rate hack who had no idea of how to offer convincing characterization and entertaining plot development! :smile:

[Samy]

Heck, Alan Moore's written fill-ins.

"Night Olympics", anyone?

[carabas]

I don't think two of those are the definition of a fill-in.

Most importantly, a fill-in does NOT exist to move characters in place. A fill-in is exactly the OPPOSITE.There's two sorts of fill-ins. There's the one you describe, which is what we used to call an inventory story that can slot in whenever the regular team falls behind in deadlins. We don't see a lot of those anymore. The second is what happens when there is a change of directions or creative teams or noth. Then some poor smuck gets stuck tying up lose ends and setting up the pieces for the next guy. And nowadys we apparently make events bigger than Final Crisis out of these things.

[Captain Jim]

Most importantly, a fill-in does NOT exist to move characters in place. A fill-in is exactly the OPPOSITE.There's two sorts of fill-ins. There's the one you describe, which is what we used to call an inventory story that can slot in whenever the regular team falls behind in deadlins. We don't see a lot of those anymore. The second is what happens when there is a change of directions or creative teams or noth. Then some poor smuck gets stuck tying up lose ends and setting up the pieces for the next guy. And nowadys we apparently make events bigger than Final Crisis out of these things.

Well, when I hear "fill-in", I think "inventory." What I'm hearing from some people here is, it's a fill-in because it's not by the great Grant Morrison. :rolleyes:

There is obviously a "jump forward" in time and continutiy between RIP and B&R. There pretty much had to be a storyline that moved from the one to the other. I think it's clear that that was not a story Morrison was interested in telling himself, but I certainly don't think he was opposed to the story being told.

Nor is there any reason to refer to Daniels as "second rate talent." DC obviously thinks he's a first rate artist, or they would never have paired him with Morrison. People unfairly put down his writing skills before BFTC ever appeared, even though most had never read anything by him. However, the overwhelming fan response (certainly on this forum) has been favorable to his work.

You can certainly argue that the tie-in books are unnecessary, but they aren't essential to the main storyline, so I fail to understand the beef. If you don't want them, don't buy them. However, for the most part, I think even most of these have had pretty good creators attached to them.

[carabas]

Well, when I hear "fill-in", I think "inventory." What I'm hearing from some people here is, it's a fill-in because it's not by the great Grant Morrison.Filler for me is stories that are entirely skippable and get in the way of 'the good stuff'.

There is obviously a "jump forward" in time and continutiy between RIP and B&R. There pretty much had to be a storyline that moved from the one to the other.That is speculation. Morrison loves hyper-compression. I really don't see why there is need for a story between Dick Grayson finding Bruce's old cape at the end of RIP and him taking over as Batman in B&R #1. Even if there is a jump forward, it will probably be done for a cetain effect, and I see no reason why this time ought to be filled in for the continuity-obsessed crowd. I certainly don't think a contrived Battle of the Batmen is a good or even vaguely interesting idea.

I think it's clear that that was not a story Morrison was interested in telling himself, but I certainly don't think he was opposed to the story being told.But if it is not a story he wanted to tell, it can't really be all that important, can it?

Nor is there any reason to refer to Daniels as "second rate talent."I didn't say that. I sai he was a second rate writer.

People unfairly put down his writing skills before BFTC ever appeared, even though most had never read anything by him.I judge him by Battle for the Cowl #1. Oracle getting that girl killed. Dalian turing into jelly at the sight of a supervilain. Dick and Tim together not being abl to figure out that the guy with the guns just mayb might be Jason Todd...


You can certainly argue that the tie-in books are unnecessary, but they aren't essential to the main storyline, so I fail to understand the beef. If you don't want them, don't buy them.I'm not buying any of it. And IMO some of the tie-ins will be far more essential reading for some salelite books than the main BotC series.
My main beef is that this whole mess of substandard work gets hyped to high heaven as an essential Bat-event. I think stunts like this damage comics as a whole (see also Countdown to Final Crisis).

[Captain Jim]

Filler for me is stories that are entirely skippable and get in the way of 'the good stuff'.

In that case, the word becomes totally subjective and meaningless. If that's what filler is, then IMO, the Morrison stories are all filler.

My main beef is that this whole mess of substandard work gets hyped to high heaven as an essential Bat-event. I think stunts like this damage comics as a whole (see also Countdown to Final Crisis).

Totally apples and oranges. Most readers are concerned enough about continuity that they want to know how you get from point A to point B. Countdown is a totally unfair compairson as it contributed very little to FC continutiy and in some instances, obscured it.

[carabas]

In that case, the word becomes totally subjective and meaningless. If that's what filler is, then IMO, the Morrison stories are all filler.A fair point, I suppose.

Totally apples and oranges. Most readers are concerned enough about continuity that they want to know how you get from point A to point B. Countdown is a totally unfair compairson as it contributed very little to FC continutiy and in some instances, obscured it.I think that we're just going to have to raed the first issues following BftC to see if or how much of this is valid.

[AJM]

I really don't see why there is need for a story between Dick Grayson finding Bruce's old cape at the end of RIP and him taking over as Batman in B&R #1.

That's what i think too. We've got everything we need at the end of RIP - Dick's got the cowl and Damian's in the Batmobile and (almost) on the right side. Everything is set up to jump straight into Batman & Robin after Final Crisis, and i suspect that was the original intention, and this Battle For The Cowl event is an unnecessary addition by DC. They even canceled Batman and Detective to create a hole in the market for BFTC and its various tie(cash)-ins to fill in order to help ensure sales (although they've f'ed up Detective's release anyway).

I don't dislike BFTC because it isn't written by Grant Morrison, i dislike it because it isn't written well. Even Daniels' art seems poorer to me than it did in his previous Batman run, which i loved. I wanted to like it but was very disappointed - it's average, adequate comic book storytelling at best in my opinion. And his complete misunderstanding of Damian and what he represents was his worst offense.

[carabas]

All I can think of as a reasonable excuse is that they have some time they need to kill because Frank Quitely does a panel a day.

[AJM]

All I can think of as a reasonable excuse is that they have some time they need to kill because Frank Quitely does a panel a day.

It's worth the wait though!

[Ben Reilly#6]

It's worth the wait though!

Not when Quitely's bringing his C-game to the comic.

And I can't believe we're really going over this again. Look, the kid just saw someone get eaten alive by a giant lizard man, and then got shot out of the air by a missile from a good height. He wasn't cowering, he was shaking from getting blown up and dropped from a few stories up!
I'm sure even his "dad" would be having problems after that kind of punishment.

I know he's supposed to have elite assassin training, but he's still just a kid at the moment, not some bio-organic super solider (which I just realized is kind of ironic, considering my theory that he's really a clone, but my point about him being young still stands).

[Captain Jim]

I don't dislike BFTC because it isn't written by Grant Morrison, i dislike it because it isn't written well. Even Daniels' art seems poorer to me than it did in his previous Batman run, which i loved. I wanted to like it but was very disappointed - it's average, adequate comic book storytelling at best in my opinion. And his complete misunderstanding of Damian and what he represents was his worst offense.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. However if the people who responded to the poll in this forum (concerning #1) are at all representative, you are in the minority on this one.

[Sean Whitmore]

The second is what happens when there is a change of directions or creative teams or noth. Then some poor smuck gets stuck tying up lose ends and setting up the pieces for the next guy.

See, I wouldn't call those filler, if for no other reason than to save on confusion.

"Lame duck" stories, maybe?

And I don't think even that's the right term for BTFC. I liken it to that "Requiem" tie in to Final Crisis. It doesn't so much wrap things up as it gives the reader who really needs to see dozens of people react to J'onn's death what they want without dragging down the "main" story.


SEAN

[Red_Knight]

I can see why some folks might not like BftC. How anyone could call it a "fill-in" is beyond me, though. As was pointed out already, a fill-in is a story that keeps the characters and world of a book in a holding pattern until the next meaningful entry comes along. (It should also be noted that fill-ins are not neccessarily done by inferior talent.) This does not apply too BftC at all.

BftC currently has 2 out of 3 issues out. As far as changes to the status quo go, we've already seen...


Damian back with the Bat Family
the debut of a new Black Mask
the demolition of Arkham Asylum
the debut of Jason Todd as "Psycho Batman"


By the time issues 3 rolls around, we'll probably get to add items like "Dick becomes Batman", "Damian becomes Robin", or "Hampton is revealved to be the Black Mask" to the list.

To make a long story short, BftC is changing the Batverse; -- dramatically so. Saying you don't like these changes is one thing, but calling them "filler" is just plain untrue. I guess you could more approiately call it an "info dump", but I'd have a hard time accepting that, either. New developments are happening fast, but they are not all being "dumped" on us in one fell swoop just to get the info out of the way.